Tariff Twists and Turns, Meta Antitrust Trial, and Blue Origin Girls' Trip

Summary

Pivot Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Tariff Twists and Turns, Meta Antitrust Trial, and Blue Origin Girls' Trip
Host: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Network: New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

Timestamp: [02:03] - [04:27]

Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway kick off the episode with casual banter about Scott's recent trip to Palm Beach. Scott shares anecdotes about encountering RFK Jr. and Mehmet Oz, highlighting the political tensions and personal interactions that set the tone for their unfiltered discussions.

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**2. Tariffs and Economic Uncertainty

Timestamp: [04:20] - [21:10]

Discussion Points:

• President Trump's Tariff Policies:
  Trump announces that "nobody is getting off the hook on tariffs," despite recent exemptions for electronics. He claims semiconductor tariffs are incoming, benefiting companies like Apple, Nvidia, and Dell.

• Impact on Businesses:

  • Scott predicts severe repercussions for Apple if iPhone prices reach $3,500, arguing it would erode consumer confidence and economic stability ([05:10]).
  • Kara notes Apple's efforts to mitigate tariffs by airlifting 600 tons of iPhones from India ([05:45]).
  • Scott elaborates on the broader economic implications, citing a $34 trillion deficit and the phenomenon of stagflation, where the economy slows while inflation rises ([06:53]).

• Real-World Anecdotes:

  • Scott shares stories of CEOs struggling with sudden tariff costs, such as an $85 million payment required upon importing outdoor furniture from China ([07:50]).

• China's Trade Position:

  • Discussion on China diversifying its trade partners and reducing reliance on the U.S., contrary to Trump's assertions of American dominance.
  • Scott emphasizes the resilience and higher pain tolerance of China compared to the U.S., questioning the effectiveness of Trump’s trade strategies ([15:21]).

• Consequences for Small and Medium Businesses:

  • Highlighting the challenges faced by SMEs dependent on exports, with increased tariffs leading to halted shipments, price hikes, and potential layoffs ([19:01]).

• Overall Economic Outlook:

  • Scott warns of impending stagflation and economic decline, stressing that without significant policy adjustments, the U.S. faces severe financial instability ([20:51]).

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway at [05:10]: “You want to enrage a cult? Take iPhones to 3500 bucks and then you're going to see the largest, most valuable company in history…piss off every millennial and Gen X in the world.”

• Scott Galloway at [06:53]: “The brand US has become toxic uncertainty…the uncertainty index has reached its highest level since the 80s.”

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3. Meta's Antitrust Trial

Timestamp: [23:24] - [38:52]

Discussion Points:

• Trial Background:

  • The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sues Meta, alleging anti-competitive practices through acquisitions like Instagram and WhatsApp during Trump’s first term ([24:18]).
  • Meta defends its actions by emphasizing the need for regulatory support to foster innovation and competition from rivals like TikTok and Snap.

• Challenges in the Trial:

  • Scott expresses skepticism about the trial's strength, noting Meta's strategic defenses and political connections ([27:20]).
  • Discussion on the difficulty of unwinding mergers and the historical precedent of successful breakups benefiting the market ([30:45]).

• Mark Zuckerberg’s Popularity:

  • Scott comments on Zuckerberg being one of the most disliked figures among younger Americans, despite Meta’s dominance ([27:26]).

• Government and Regulatory Insights:

  • Scott highlights the need for higher standards in merger approvals to prevent monopolistic concentrations that inflate prices across industries ([31:26]).

• Historical Comparisons:

  • Comparison between Meta’s acquisitions of Instagram and WhatsApp with Yahoo’s failed acquisition of Tumblr, illustrating the potential pitfalls of large-scale acquisitions ([34:12]).

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway at [30:45]: “When we look back in economic history, there's never been a breakup that hasn't turned out well for everybody.”

• Kara Swisher at [33:48]: “Meta bought Instagram for a billion dollars. It’s worth $100 to $200 billion now…”

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4. Immigration and El Salvador’s Policies

Timestamp: [38:52] - [48:15]

Discussion Points:

• Deportation Controversy:

  • El Salvador's President Nayib Bukele refuses to return a mistakenly deported Maryland man, Kilma Abrego Garcia, labeling him a terrorist without evidence ([42:25]).

• Human Rights Concerns:

  • Kara and Scott criticize Bukele’s harsh immigration tactics, including mass arrests based on gang affiliations and the resultant human rights violations.
  • Discussion on the U.S. government's struggle with immigration enforcement, highlighting the protection disparities between the rich and the poor ([48:01]).

• Economic Implications of Immigration:

  • Scott emphasizes the economic contributions of undocumented immigrants, such as paying Social Security taxes without benefiting from them, and their role in essential sectors like fast food ([48:15]).

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway at [46:21]: “The rich are protected by the law. The poor are bound by the law but not protected by it.”

• Kara Swisher at [48:15]: “Immigration is the secret sauce of America.”

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5. Blue Origin’s All-Female Space Crew

Timestamp: [49:56] - [54:00]

Discussion Points:

• Blue Origin's Mission:

  • Six women, including celebrities like Lauren Sanchez and Khloe Kardashian, embark on a 10-minute trip aboard Blue Origin's New Shepard rocket, marking the first all-female crew in space since 1963 ([42:25]).

• Critique of the Mission:

  • Kara criticizes the mission as a public relations stunt rather than a genuine advancement for women in space, noting the superficial focus on attire and appearance over scientific achievement ([52:07]).
  • Scott differentiates the mission from accomplished astronauts like Sally Ride, who had significant scientific and exploratory contributions ([53:08]).

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway at [53:31]: “Sally Ride is our astronaut. These folks, I agree, sure — we have to differentiate between genuine scientific endeavors and PR stunts.”

• Kara Swisher at [53:49]: “It's just a stunt. It's not a feminist movement. It's just a bunch of ladies… Their interviews show that they're talking about their eyeshadow and their eyeliner.”

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6. Pop Culture and Current Events

Timestamp: [54:00] - [74:58]

Discussion Points:

• Bill Maher's White House Dinner:

  • Bill Maher attends a dinner with President Trump, later claiming he wasn’t intoxicated and finding Trump gracious in private, leading to discussions about Trump's dual persona ([54:00]).
  • Kara and Scott debate the authenticity and implications of Maher's portrayal of Trump, questioning whether Trump's private demeanor differs from his public rhetoric ([57:24]).

• Television Wins and Fails:

  • Kara highlights TV shows like "G20 with Viola Davis" and "Hacks," praising strong female leads and engaging storylines.
  • Scott discusses the government audit under President Trump, predicting its failure and the collapse of related initiatives like "Doge" ([63:37]).

• Predictions and Economic Policies:

  • Scott forecasts a surge in international trade deals as a reaction to U.S. economic policies, suggesting that the U.S. will lose its competitive edge while other nations strengthen their trade partnerships ([66:18]).
  • Discussion on government inefficiency and the misleading nature of certain policy promises, particularly focusing on President Trump's underdelivering on fiscal promises ([65:00]).

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Galloway at [66:18]: “Americans are not willing to endure pain… we have to face a hard decision here.”

• Kara Swisher at [64:37]: “I love Viola Davis. I love her kicking ass and killing South African terrorists... good and bad at the same time.”

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7. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [74:08] - [74:56]

Kara and Scott wrap up the episode by emphasizing the importance of making tough decisions for America's economic future, dismissing superficial victories in favor of substantive policy changes. They encourage listeners to engage with their content and vote for "Pivot" in the Webby Awards, highlighting their commitment to delivering insightful and critical analysis on pressing tech and business issues.

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Key Takeaways:

• Economic Instability Due to Tariffs: The current tariff policies under President Trump are creating significant uncertainty and financial strain for American businesses, potentially leading to stagflation.

• Meta's Antitrust Proceedings: The ongoing trial against Meta for anti-competitive mergers underscores the challenges of regulating tech giants and the potential benefits of dismantling monopolistic structures.

• Immigration Policies and Human Rights: The episode highlights the harsh and often unjust immigration practices of both the U.S. and El Salvador, emphasizing the economic contributions of undocumented immigrants.

• Critique of Performative Tech Initiatives: Blue Origin's all-female space mission is criticized as a PR stunt rather than a meaningful advancement for women in STEM fields.

• Government Inefficiency and Policy Failures: Scott and Kara discuss the ineffectiveness of certain government initiatives and the misleading nature of policy promises, advocating for more substantial and transparent governance.

Notable Quotes Summary:

• Scott Galloway:

  • “[...] You want to enrage a cult? Take iPhones to 3500 bucks [...] ”
  • “The brand US has become toxic uncertainty.”
  • “Consumers are not willing to endure pain… we have to face a hard decision here.”

• Kara Swisher:

  • “Meta bought Instagram for a billion dollars. It’s worth $100 to $200 billion now.”
  • “Immigration is the secret sauce of America.”
  • “It's just a stunt. It's not a feminist movement.”

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Conclusion:
In this episode of "Pivot," Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway delve into the complexities of current U.S. economic policies, the antitrust challenges facing major tech companies like Meta, and the implications of immigration practices. Balancing serious economic discourse with critiques of superficial media events, the hosts provide a comprehensive and engaging analysis aimed at informing and provoking thought among their listeners.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

This podcast is supported by Google. Hey Dave, here from the Google Gemini team. We're upgrading Deep research with Gemini 2.0 flash thinking. Think of it as a research assistant that does the browsing for you. I use it to get up to speed on any topic fast with a multi page report and audio overview generated in just minutes. And it shows its reasoning and sources beyond just the info. Smarter, faster research. Try out Deep Research with [e-mail] Support.

[Kara Swisher]

For this show comes from ServiceNow who are enabling people to do more fulfilling work. The work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of the business. It, hr, customer service and more. And that means your people can focus on the work they want to do. That's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get [e-mail] agents. Support for today's show comes from Chevrolet. Whether it's just a quick jaunt or a long journey, Chevy's all electric Equinox EV has you covered with a massive 17.7-inch diagonal touchscreen. And starting at around $34,995, you can hit the road and still afford snacks. Equinox ev, a vehicle you know, a value to expect and a dealer right down the street. You can go EV without changing a thing. Learn [e-mail] Equinox EV the manufacturer's suggested retail price excludes tax, title, license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealer sets final price.

[Scott Galloway]

No one has ever described me as openly heterosexual. No one has ever said openly heterosexual. Podcaster.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

Where are you, Scott? You're somewhere strange with the wallpaper situation going on.

[Scott Galloway]

I am at the Colony Hotel in Palm beach where I just returned from getting from the Department of Motor Vehicles at Palm Beach Gardens, where my son is now a licensed driver.

[Kara Swisher]

How exciting. That's great. I thought you were at Mar a Lago or something like that.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I ran into my friend Mehmet Oz yesterday and he came over and he introduced me to RFK Jr. They're hanging out.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh no.

[Scott Galloway]

And he gave me the cold shoulder. I think it's because I refused to have him on my pod. I don't know. He was definitely like cold to me.

[Kara Swisher]

Who? Rfk.

[Scott Galloway]

Rfk? No, Memin and I are friends. RFK yeah. Was noticeably cold than me. He's very handsome though. I did notice that.

[Kara Swisher]

Cause he's a crank. Do you see the latest he's put. I don't even wanna go into it.

[Scott Galloway]

Four months until autism is solved.

[Kara Swisher]

Now, not just that, all his stuff, he's taking information off. He's saying vaccines aren't necessarily a good thing. On the just. He's such a fucking disaster. These people are setting themselves up for a lot of pain years from now. It's just that the murders he is committing right now, as far as I'm.

[Scott Galloway]

Concerned, well, in addition to the additional death, disease and disability across our populace, it's made traffic much worse for me. That's what I'm really upset about.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, all right. Okay, all right.

[Scott Galloway]

The traffic is awful down here, but anyways, I'm at the Colony Hotel, which I affectionately call, I think there's a, a whole cadre or cohort of what I call 64 hotels and service establishments. And that is because of the unprecedented prosperity that we've started to believe is a normal operating system in America. And a series of fiscal and monetary policies that literally own tax policies, cram all this prosperity in the top 1%. And the fact there's a lag time. You can't build a four or five star hotel in a year, it takes 10 years. These places are over capacity and so I describe them as 64. Isn't that a six star prices with four star service?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, okay.

[Scott Galloway]

And these places are so expensive and I don't mind paying a lot of money if you get great service. And you do get great service at the Beverly Hotel or, I don't know, at the Langham in London. I mean, there's just a ton of great hotels with great service. This is not one of them.

[Kara Swisher]

This is not one of them. Ri Colony Hotel with RFK there. That's all I need to know. I'm not going there.

[Scott Galloway]

No, RFK is not here. I don't want to, I don't want to spread it. It's a beautiful hotel in Palm beach, fellow. It's 74 and sunny. Gosh, that's so nice here.

[Kara Swisher]

Good for you. It's very nice here in Washington too. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. There's also a lot of tech stuff going on, including Meta's big antitrust trial and of course Women in Space. We'll get to that. But first let's get to tariffs. Because first, President Trump now says nobody is getting off the hook on tariffs, despite granting exemptions for smartphones, computers and other electronics late Friday. Which is a lie, apparently. Trump posted on Truth Social on Sunday that products are just moving to a different tariff bucket. He also says that semiconductor tariffs are coming, but tariff exemptions, or whatever Trump wants to call them, are good news for Apple, Nvidia and Dell, at least for the time being. Of course, Scott predicted Apple's reprieve on our Friday episode. Let's listen.

[Scott Galloway]

You want to enrage a cult? Take iPhones to 3500 bucks and then you're going to see the largest, most valuable company in history, an American company, lose the value of the German GDP over the course of a year. You're going to take push back people's retirements, Apple's going to have to withdraw all sorts of growth plans and you want to piss off every millennial and Gen X in the world. Take their iPhones to 3500 bucks. Apple is not going to have any tariffs here.

[Kara Swisher]

So in the interim for that you were absolutely correct. Very good. But what was.

[Scott Galloway]

And then I was not correct, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, I know. So what is the deal? Because Letnik started. Everyone thought Letnik was off script but. And Trump underscored it and added more confusion to something that was already confusing and seems very oligarchic and sudden and shifting. Apple was trying very hard to deal with this. They're airlifting 600 tons of iPhones from India last week to reportedly beat the tariffs. This flip flopping is really bad. Carolyn Levitt of course it goes against what they were saying. We're gonna make things in the US Karen Levitt Tracy Flick said over the weekend that Trump is still committed to seeing more products and components made in the U.S. she noted Trump's direction. Tech companies are hustling to onshore their manufacturing United States as soon as possible. This is Carolyn. Sit down you 27 year old ignoramus. But what do you think about this? Flippity floppity, flippity flop.

[Scott Galloway]

The brand US has become toxic uncertainty. There are several organizations that track an uncertainty index and that index has reached its highest level since the 80s. The level of uncertainty in the US right now is greater than Covid.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Scott Galloway]

Think about that. And by the way, I'm gonna give you some anecdotes. I'm not gonna name the people because they didn't wanna be named. But what I would tell our listeners is that unlike the Trump administration, my anecdotes are true. I'm not lying. Over the weekend I talked to several CEOs. One is the CEO of a huge catalog and retail company that does a lot of housewares. This person has, he thinks, about $60 million in outdoor furniture waiting to hit the stores for summer that are on ships en route from China. All of a sudden, he has to figure out a way to get to the port of Long beach when they arrive and write a check for $85 million that he wasn't expecting to write. And he has to call his cfo. And this is a publicly traded multibillion dollar company. He's like, I can't just like find 85 million bucks.

[Kara Swisher]

The 85 is for what? To pay for the things now or what is the 85 for?

[Scott Galloway]

That's the correct question. Because the way tariffs work is the importer, the catalog, the retailer company taking delivery of outdoor furniture from China. If these products, quote, unquote, cost 60 million, you have to with 145% tariff, you have to the person receiving the items. The retailer in the US has to pay $85 million to the US government in the form of a tariff payment. So this individual has to come up with $85 million to get the shit off the boat.

[Kara Swisher]

In addition, unless they're given a reprieve.

[Scott Galloway]

But he can't just let shit sit on a boat. And right now he has to plan for what the government is saying. In addition, he's got to find hundreds, if not thousands of people to go down to the port and when the stuff comes off the boat, re tag and reprice everything. Because now the majority of retailers that order their stuff out of China have it tagged and priced and attached to the actual physical item in China and wrapped, right, whatever.

[Kara Swisher]

If there happened to be clothing or something like that, whatever it is.

[Scott Galloway]

And so in addition, he's like, okay, so I have stopped all shipments from China. I've told them stop producing, which is gonna take my inventory levels way down. And the only way I'm gonna get anywhere back to even is if I raise prices, which I'm gonna have to do in addition to more expensive prices, that is inflation. My earnings call is gonna be a shit show when I have to explain that, oh yeah, I wasn't expecting to pay an $85 million une straight from the bottom line payment for tariffs that didn't exist seven days before, right? And he has to go into his office and the CFO goes, all right, if we've got to go borrow $85 million against the line, we can do it. But if every retailer is hitting their line, the interest costs are going to Go up.

[Kara Swisher]

Correct.

[Scott Galloway]

And this is what played out last week and why this guy blinked yet again. The president has access to more information than any individual in history. Between our security apparatus, the brightest people in the world, a ton of data that's digested, distilled for him. He is the helm of the bobsled. He technically has more insight into what is going on in the world than any individual. And I'm sure two pieces of data were presented to him in fairly stark terms. Consumer confidence is plummeting, uncertainty is skyrocketing, which all adds up to a decline in spending and hiring and insecurity which has taken the economy down. Now traditionally when an economy goes down, people don't want to borrow money, people don't want to invest. So interest rates come down and that makes people more confident. It's sort of a self healing mechanism. In this instance we have a reduction in consumer spending, the economy slowing down, but the 10 year spiked 50 points. So you have everything getting more expensive as the economy slows down. That's called stagflation, which is a bridge to a depression. The 10 year went up 50 bips in five days. And let's bring that down to a number. Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

All right.

[Scott Galloway]

We have a $34 trillion deficit, meaning every basis point increase in the cost of the tenure. If it goes from 4% to 4.1%, it's another 3.5 billion billion in interest payments we have to make on our national debt. I'm not even talking about the incremental cost to consumers of their student loans, their mortgages and their credit cards. I'm just talking about the interest on the debt we have to pay. So when it spikes 50 basis points, right on $3.5 billion per basis point in incremental interest expense, all of a sudden in a few days, America has to come up with another 175 billion billion in interest payments to foreign creditors. Our entire Veterans affairs budget is 300 billion. So they have figured out a way to reduce the economy, to send the economy into what looks like a low grade coma while interest rates are going up. This is the worst of all worlds, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Right. And they're not getting. And they're $85 million this guy has to pay is going to the government, but it's now going to be sucked up in interest rate payments. It's just like so we're going to lose so much money every which way you lose. So how companies proceed is impossible at this point. What do you do? What do you just stop payments? That's what you stop doing and then you lay people off and then you hunker down until this lunatic is either he loses at the midterm and he gets investigated out the yin yang, which he should be honestly, or it's rendered impossible for him to do anything that say his lawlessness continue defying the Supreme Court on immigration. He's defying everybody on every single thing. And also, by the way, he doesn't weigh 224 pounds. He weighs like at least 250 pounds. Anyway, that was just his thing. Let's talk China then. Because President, this is an opportunity, as we've talked about with President Xi. He currently is visiting Vietnam and other countries in Southeast Asia, presenting China as a reliable ally and trading partner. China also spended exports on a wide range of critical minerals and magnets. China is holding steady here and they are willing to endure pain, but they're also doing the correct thing, which is to visit partners and show themselves to be reliable partners. What will Trump do next? Cuz I see him more in this press conference in the Oval Office. He's defying the Supreme Court, he's defying the Fed. He's defying anyone he can defy. And when he makes a good decision, he defies his good decisions. So what do companies do and how do you look at China's role here? Because I think their benefits benefiting enormously from his idiocy. I don't know what else to call it. Stupidity.

[Scott Galloway]

So I never miss a chance to boast. The CEO of one of the most iconic German automobile manufacturers reached out and said, we'd love to come. We'd love to host you and come have you speak to the management team of the board. And I was trying to arrange dates and then he called me and he said, can I ask you something? I said, of course. He goes, what would you do if you were us, given what's going on in the US And Kara, as a guy who is always willing to run other people's lives and tell them what they should do. I'm like, I have no fucking idea. I have no idea, no idea what to do here other than, and I hate to say this because I love America, other than figure out a series of partners that are more reliable. I said, oh, we're doing that and going to that notion around. Let's talk about China now. China, since COVID or since 2019, has reduced its percentage of its total exports to the US from 24 to 17%. We have reduced ours by 4%. So we're both Diversifying away from each other. They have diversified at nearly double the clip we have. The basic premise is that we can hurt them more than they can hurt us. So they will cry uncle. So let's assume that we could hurt them more than they could hurt us. That is a pretty shaky thesis because while the administration wants you to believe that we're the only customer at the country club and they have to be nice to us.

[Kara Swisher]

Right.

[Scott Galloway]

The number one trading partner with China is the association of Southeast Asian nations. ASEAN at 1 trillion. Who's number two? The EU at 900 billion. We're number three.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep.

[Scott Galloway]

So yeah, we have a lot of power. But if they wanted to, and you want to talk about restraint, if they wanted to go into the market and take the tenure from 450 to 550 and create inflation while the economy is going down, they could do that. But what they realize is that if they really hurt and kneecap their third biggest customer, it would be bad for them as well. They are not stupid. In addition, let's discount all of that and let's take the administration at its word that Howard Lutnick that we're the biggest consumer and they would be fucked without us. China has its own troubles. Here's the issue or the piece of calculus they are missing. When Americans find. When they're watching the Logan Paul Mike Tyson fight and it starts, the bandwidth slows down. They go fucking apeshit and they call their cable company.

[Kara Swisher]

I just did that today.

[Scott Galloway]

When you talk about. Women are born with a much higher tolerance for pain because they have to endure childbirth. Men have much lower tolerance of pain. We're the man in this relationship. China starves tens of millions of people when they think it's good long term for the country. Do you realize the pain threshold of America relative to China? 0.

[Kara Swisher]

0.

[Scott Galloway]

And we think we're gonna strong arm them into doing a decision they don't want to do.

[Kara Swisher]

This is nuts. This is just absolutely nuts. Bo and Yang did a very funny thing on snl. This idea. They are. They are made for pain.

[Scott Galloway]

But wait, I'm just wondering which side.

[Kara Swisher]

Is more willing to endure hardship for the glory of their nation? The one that's been around for thousands of years or the one that's sending Katy Perry to Spain?

[Scott Galloway]

Look at us in the 70s when we had a much higher tolerance for pain. When we didn't have Netflix and shows on demand and couldn't get a pack of gum delivered to us within 15 minutes. We left Vietnam after we had decided we can't take Anymore. When we had lost 58,000 servicemen at that point, the Viet Cong and North Vietnam, they had lost a million people and we cried uncle. To think that, I mean, the calculus here is just so incredibly ignorant.

[Kara Swisher]

In addition, the performative defiance on everything, like there's not anywhere they're not losing and being performatively defiant and then dragging people who were not like this, like Marco Rubio into this performative defiance, that's what I would call it. And it's just, it's like Saul, my son, this, you know, I'm not going to, you know, he does this thing where he does his arms. You know, when you see a toddler, like I'm not gonna do anything. And that's what it feels like. I, I'm dealing with like a three year old or, or something like that.

[Scott Galloway]

First off, it's corruption all, all over the place because, okay, you give me a million bucks. You're the cult of iOS. Just kidding. The, the tariffs route. Well, we backed or not. 98% of the companies in America who are dependent upon exports for their well being are small and medium sized business. Another CEO I spoke to this weekend, a friend of mine from my fraternity at college, he has a specialty products company. You know when you go to a conference and all the cups, the fleeces, the banners, the signage, I have a lot.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm wearing one right now.

[Scott Galloway]

There you go. Okay. That's a big business. He has a family run business that he's worked at for 30 years. Since we got out of college, he's built Probably a $10 or $12 million business, 130 employees, has put three kids through college, lived a really nice life. Right. Slowly but surely over the last 30 years, everything's gone to China. About 80% of his products are produced out of China. He also has to go down to the port and sign a check for a couple million bucks, which he doesn't have to get the shit off the boat. He's told China to stop shipping everything and he doesn't have time to figure out new routing relationships. He's basically said, Scott, this is Covid times 10. I'm not going to get any relief. I don't know when this is coming to an end. And literally my business has come to a halt at campuses. And I know this firsthand. Some of the biggest organizations, companies, recruiters, have said the following. We're putting a pause on interviews and hiring. And a pause sounds benign, but when you pause hiring for three months for new grads at a college in three months, when they resume, they don't double the pace. They basically reduce hiring for 25 or 50% for that year. It's not as if they decide now we're going to go crazy with hiring when we start again. So you have a reduction in the number of jobs for kids coming out of college. You have stocks that are gonna get the shit act out of em, you have small and medium sized businesses that don't know what to do. You have earnings calls which are gonna be an absolute shit show. And you have the threat of stagflation. And all of this is the chickens coming to roost. Because countries don't go out of business because they're invaded. They go out of business because they go broke. And we have borrowed so much fucking money, we are so debt laden that we no longer have that bullet to fire.

[Kara Swisher]

I mean one of the things that's, that's astonishing here is that we think we have choices. And that's the problem with this entire thing is we do not have the choices. And this is not being an America like is a bunch of losers. This is self inflicted damage that we're doing to ourselves.

[Scott Galloway]

Definition of ongoal.

[Kara Swisher]

Exactly right. We should be running. Just three months ago you were talking about how the US is dominating everything. Right when the transition was happening three or four months ago. Now we are just doing it to ourselves. And I think most people understand that. But we have to move on. But this is just what is fucking disaster now Apple stock and Nvidia stock is up today because they're hoping that these things stay in place, but they might not. And so you might see an impact. Lots of shares are down right now. Apple and Nvidia are up because they've gotten this break, but who knows what's coming? Because this is this idea that he wants to continue to hold over people's head, that he could grab these anytime. Anyone who can't get in on this gravy train. You use the Vietnam thing. I used it yesterday on one of our socials. This is like if you're not on the helicopter out of Saigon, you are fucked. Like everyone else is fucked. We'll see what political implications that has, but we'll see where it goes anyway. Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the antitrust trial that Mark Zuckerberg tries so hard to shut down. And he looked so nice at the inauguration. We'll get to that. Support for pivot comes from LinkedIn. You know that feeling when things are just out of place, like ordering a steak dinner at a seafood restaurant or wearing shorts to an ice hockey game. On their own, they're fine, but there's a time and place for everything. It's kind of like that for B2B marketers. It's all about selling the right product to the right audience. And if you're looking to reach the right professionals, you might want to try LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, making it stand apart from other ad buyers. So you can target your buyers by job title, industry role, seniority, skills and company revenue. All the professionals you need to reach in one place. Plus, LinkedIn ads are easy to use, so you don't need to worry about learning a whole new skill in order to use it. You can stop wasting your budget on the wrong audience and start targeting the right professionals only on LinkedIn ads. LinkedIn will even give you $100 credit on your next campaign, so you can just try it for yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com pivotpods that's LinkedIn.com pivotpod Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for Pivot comes from Intuit QuickBooks Are you a business owner looking to grow? You already did what most dream of doing starting your own business. Now you're faced with the reality of making that small business run smoothly. Intuit QuickBooks can help. QuickBooks is a powerful AI driven, all in one business platform. That means those day to day tasks, things like invoicing, expenses and taxes can be done effortlessly. But here's where it gets really good. You don't need to hire a team of analysts to find growth opportunities hiding in your business data. QuickBooks can help with cash flow optimization and profit and loss analysis. It helps you see how your business is doing and uncover new ways to be more profitable. It's time to unlock the growth in your business so you can get back to enjoying it. Manage and grow your business all in one place into a QuickBooks your way to Money Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licenses and Money Transmitter by the New York State Department of Financial Services.

[Kara Swisher]

Support for Pivot comes from Kinsta. If you run a small business, you've got a million and one things on your mind and the last thing you want to do is to take a class on Java so you can keep your website up to date and secure, but you can't just let it sit there. In this day and age, having a standout web presence is a must. That's why the folks at Kinsta can help you manage your website, so you can take at least that headache off your list. Kinsta's expert team handles it all. For your WordPress site, they bundled up all the essentials, making site management easy to handle. That means you can wow your visitors have security that never sleeps and a dashboard that's incredibly intuitive. And when you hit a snag, you'll have access to a real human 24 hours a day, seven days a week. In short, Kinsta is perfect for those who want professional results without needing a technical background. So if you're tired of being your own website support team, you can switch your hosting to Kinsta and get your first month free. And don't worry about the move, they'll handle the whole transition for you. No tech expertise required. Just visit kinsta.com pivot to get started. That's K-I N-S-T A.com pivot Scott we're back. Apparently putting on a tie and kissing up to Trump didn't do the job. The FTC is facing off against Medic in a blockbuster antitrust trial getting underway this week. The case goes back to Trump's first term in 2020, if you can believe it, with the government alleging Meta violated competition laws by acquiring Instagram and WhatsApp. For its part, Meta says regulators should be supporting innovation and it also faces fierce competition from TikTok, Snap and other platforms. I find this to be a little bit of a weak trial, be honest with you. I think there's others that are stronger. But the trial is expected to last about seven to eight weeks. Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg recalled to stand, among others. This is the case that Mark Zuckerberg has been trying to stop. It's interesting that Trump has not intervened. Zuckerberg has visited the White House three times since Trump took office. Meta also donated $1 million to Trump's inaugural fund and settled a lawsuit with Trump for $25 million back in January of which they did nothing. It also just named former Trump Advisor Dina Powell McCormick Demetta's board very she's also the wife of Senator David McCormick from Pennsylvania. FTC had Ferguson has been vocal about reigning in tech, but also said he'd obey lawful orders if Trump asked him to drop the suit. I think he would. He's been wearing the Trump. Have you seen the gold headed Trump that people are wearing? I think it was him. Yeah, I think it was Ferguson that was wearing it anyway. Oh, Brendan Carr was wearing it. Excuse me, the head of the fcc. So he said he would follow what Trump says and thoughts on this. If Meta loses, a remedy could be divesting Instagram and WhatsApp. The judge who will decide the case for the remedy is James Bolton, who's been clashing with Trump over deportations and many other issues. Talk about this case a little bit and what you think will happen here. It's going on. So it's not been stopped by any means.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, Zuck is the most disliked person in America under the age of 30. He's got a 2/3 unfavorable rating.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it is kind of crazy.

[Scott Galloway]

He's even less popular than Musk. And think about when you're the most disliked person amongst a group of people who is literally ground zero for your product and 2/3 of those people use your product and yet you are the most disliked person in America. I'm hopeful. I had Jonathan Kanter on Prof. G. And Jonathan said, explain who he is. He was the former head of antitrust at the. Was he at the doj? He was a justice. Right. I said, I'm really sad that you and Lena are gone. I just don't see anything happening. And he said, he actually said, you know, you underestimate some of the people that are just that are still there. There's still some people there that are pretty committed and quite frankly, sort of, you know, antitrust badasses that are going to make a very powerful argument. I've become so cynical, Kara. I know what I want to happen. I think that they're going to play slowball. I mean, look at how strategic Zuckerberg is. He put Dana White on the board. He's put this basically this Trump bite on the board. He's figured out the existential threat to my business isn't distribution, isn't innovation, it's political. And so I am absolutely muscling up with all sorts of contacts into the White House. And the reality is this White House can be bought. And not only can the White House be bought, so can the Democratic caucus with enough money. So I believe they have become masters at slowing these things down and letting them die a slow death. I hope I'm wrong. These companies have figured out a way to avoid all regulation. I don't see why this would be any different.

[Kara Swisher]

I think they're surprised the trial is going forward. Let me just read from the opening statements by the two lawyers. This is Daniel Matheson, the FTC's lead litigator. For more than 100 years, American public policy has insisted firms must compete if they want to succeed. The reason we are here Is Meta broke the deal. They decided that competition was too hard to be. Easier to buy out their rivals than compete with them. This is the buyer bury argument. Now, Meta's lawyers, this is a guy named Mark Hanson from a big law firm, Kellogg Hanson. This case is a grab bag of FTC theories at war with fact and at war with law. The facts are going to prove the FTC's theories are all wrong. It is a difficult chart. I've talked to a lot of lawyers. The FTC would like it to divest these companies. Legal experts say it might be hard to win. I'll read directly from the New York Times. That's because the government must prove something unknowable that Meta, formerly known as, wouldn't have achieved the same success without the acquisitions. It's also extremely rare to try to unwind mergers approved years before. So that's one of the difficult ones. Even though this is somewhat of a bipartisan effort, just for people to know there's three going around to go to trial. The DOJ won its case against Google. A federal judge is hearing arguments about remedies and a potential breakup. And there's a separate trial with the DOJ for monopolizing ad technology by Google. That. That's still going on. Justice Department has also sued Apple, and the FTC has sued Amazon, accusing companies of antitrust violations. Those trials are coming up later, just for people to get a background. But if they do spin it off, it would be unprecedented.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I mean, the baby bills were broken up, the aluminum, the sisters, the seven sisters or whatever. It does happen. And generally speaking, when we look back in economic history, there's never been a breakup that hasn't turned out well for everybody. So it's one of the few things that kind of always works are breakups. The problem is, to your point, we should have a much higher bar for approving mergers, because quite frankly, the job of the government is to prevent a tragedy of the commons. And the easiest way to do that is preventive, and that is not let these companies be acquired to begin with. I mean, even there's been a lot of officials in the government say we screwed up letting Meta acquire Instagram. They probably should have never let Google acquire, What was it, DoubleClick and. Or YouTube.

[Kara Swisher]

That was Google. Yeah, Google. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

But, so there probably needs. What this says is it is very difficult to unwind a merger and force suspend. What is easier is to block an acquisition. And I think the bar should be pretty low to block an acquisition for a company once it gets above A certain dominance in its own category. I think that's what the argument they make so effectively that resonates with the public is that capitalism means making more money and they should let just be capitalist and the market do its thing. What they don't realize is that the concentration of industry has led to massively higher prices. Whether it's chicken, whether it's pharma, whether it's healthcare.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. This is harder.

[Scott Galloway]

And think about the way I look at it is the hard part is some of these costs are non economic. But for God's sakes, look at the rents and the increase in emotional prices that Meta has levied on every parent globally.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And ad businesses that have been destroyed because they dominate it and stuff like that. There's those. These are just harder to do just for people. Just a little more talk about it. Facebook bought Instagram in 2012 for a billion dollars. I covered this and then 2014 it paid $19 billion for WhatsApp. Both were crazy prices at the time. Although Instagram certainly has yielded a lot. There is a paper trail of emails between executives talking about the startups because they were threats. I wrote about that at the time. The lawyers mentioned the documents. Zuckerberg was so paranoid and he talked about in emails neutralizing a potential competitor. And then Zuckerberg wrote to Sandberg, messenger isn't beating WhatsApp. Instagram was growing so much faster than us, we had to buy them for a billion. So because there's such bad product people at Facebook and I cannot underscore this enough, they had to buy or bury. It's a very famous phrase in tech, buy or bury. And so that's what the government is alleging here. And also keeping it out of other competitors hands is another one to build a moat around the monopoly. And so WhatsApp was that for them. So it should be really, really interesting. I think we'll see what happens in this trial. But so far the Trump administration is not doing pay or play here. They're just letting it go, which is to me interesting. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, yeah, he doesn't like these guys. And it's one, it looks as if Instagram would be worth about $100 to $200 billion right now. Now granted it might not have had the same level of success had it not been able to cooperate and share data. But what's interesting is within about 40 days of one another was the best and likely the worst acquisition in tech history. And they looked remarkably similar at the Time and the best.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I know what you're gonna say.

[Scott Galloway]

You would argue maybe, maybe other than the acquisition of YouTube.

[Kara Swisher]

Really?

[Scott Galloway]

But Mark Zuckerberg bought Instagram for a billion dollars. It's worth 100 to 200, if not more now, and within a month or 45 days, the worst acquisition in tech. Do you remember what it is?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm thinking it's Yahoo.

[Scott Galloway]

Exactly.

[Kara Swisher]

Tumblr. I broke that story, Mr. Scott Galloway.

[Scott Galloway]

I know you did. So Facebook acquires Instagram for a billion. It's worth 100 to 200 billion. Yahoo. Marissa Mayer acquires Tumblr for 1.2 billion. And I believe about seven years later, they sold it for $3 million.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it's worth nothing now. I just ran into some Tumblr people. What a great site that was, though. You know what I mean? It really was. I liked Tumblr a lot. It was a very innovative site. But you're right. It's just. This is just. Come on. This is what Mark Zuckerberg played from the Bill Gates Beyerberry playbook. Sorry. This is what this is. We'll see if they can decide if Facebook will make the argument. Meta will make the argument that there's plenty of competition and that there's lots and lots. There's whatever, Blue sky, whatever. There's. But the fact of the matter is two things, both for Google and for Facebook. When have you seen a new, fresh social network get built if not buried? Like Snapchat is doing its level better, but Mark keeps stealing his things because he can't buy it. He couldn't buy it, and so he decided to bury it. That's what they did with Snapchat. And when have you last seen a new search engine that really had any kind of traction? And you were close with the guy who did, the one who left Google and tried to do it. It's impossible. Nobody can switch. The switch costs are too high. And then when Apple does a deal with these companies and makes them the de facto map or. Or whatever map or search engine, it sort of puts the nail in the coffin for every other competitor. And the similar thing we just talked about with the tariffs, if you can get an out like Apple did, you're great. If you can't, like, you're a furniture guy, you're fucked. Like, that's really it. And this is.

[Scott Galloway]

It's corruption. It's corruption everywhere. Yeah, it's an autocrat. It's not systemic. And also, just to put a fine point on the concentration of industry, this is happening up and down industries. US Higher education is a cartel. There's two great universities in every city, and the people who give you accreditation such that you have access to student loans are run by the incumbents. My old company, L2, got acquired by a large research company that everybody hates and everybody uses. And I couldn't figure out, after they acquired us, the series of decisions they made. I felt like it was George Costanza where everything I thought they should do, they did the exact opposite. I just didn't understand the decisions they were making. And it finally dawned on me about 18 months later. And I'm just speculating, I'm like, I think they thought, okay, we'll pay 3% of our market cap for this company because they're nipping at our heels around CMOs, and if they will squeeze them for cash flow and then we'll put them out of business, I think I'm like, I think I've just been aqua killed.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, yep, Aqua killed. That's what it is. Yeah. That buyer, bear.

[Scott Galloway]

And it's like, okay, a competitor goes away, they get some cash flow back. And Quite frankly, for 2 or 3% dilution, just not having someone running around nipping at your heels, establishing a wedge in your business. And I remember thinking, why on earth are they doing nothing with us? Why are they not driving the business?

[Kara Swisher]

Why do not they understand me? I'm a genius. I've been there.

[Scott Galloway]

They've domesticated me.

[Kara Swisher]

And then you left. And then you left.

[Scott Galloway]

Pour me with my big fucking bag of.

[Kara Swisher]

You did get a bag of money.

[Scott Galloway]

But this is what happens.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what they have. They have bags and bags of money every day. That's right.

[Scott Galloway]

They show up to an entrepreneur and they say, tell you what, we're going to make you rich. Just stop bothering and competing against us. Stop bothering us and stop competing.

[Kara Swisher]

In this case, Trump ain't playing. So we'll see where it goes from here. One of the things that Meta is doing, I got texted by a meta person today. They're like, can you believe this? And I'm like, yes, sure we can.

[Scott Galloway]

Sure we can.

[Kara Swisher]

And by the way, you know what? If they take off off Instagram, good for capitalism. If they do. If they take off WhatsApp, good for capitalism. If they spin off YouTube, good for capital. We're capitalists, Scott and Tara, because we think that's good for this country, it's good for competition. And maybe you'll do a little better in your other things if you have to, not just buy.

[Scott Galloway]

It's good for the stock price.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. If you can't just buy your buy your wife or husband or whatever, it's good for everybody. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Blue Origin sends an all female crew into space. We must be very careful here, but nonetheless, it's heinous. We'll find out what Scott has to say. Oh, I can't wait to see what you have to say.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

Support for pivot comes from Vanta. If you could automate 90% of one part of your life. You might choose cleaning your house or writing thank you notes or working out. But if you're a startup founder or a security professional, you'd probably choose Compliance Makes sense Achieving and maintaining compliance takes a ton of time, time and money. Vanta is a trust management platform that helps businesses automate up to 90% of the work for in demand security frameworks including SOC2, ISO 27001 and HIPAA. Vanta also saves businesses time by centralizing security processes and helping them complete security questionnaires up to five times faster with AI. And Vanta saves you money. A recent IDC white paper found that Vanta customers are achieve $535,000 per year in benefits. Making sure your company is meeting its security compliance standards isn't optional, but with Vanta, the amount of time you need to spend on it is. Go to vanta.com pivot to meet with a Vanta expert about your business needs. That's vanta.com pivot.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back. El Salvador's president says he won't order the return of a Maryland man named Kilma Abrego Garcia who was mistakenly deported. They've admitted he is mistakenly deported. President Bukele, who I'm just going to call sleazy club owner, appeared with President Trump at the White House. By the way, he wasn't wearing a tie. I think it was very, it wasn't very stately of him to appear looking like he's about to do an ecstasy dance or something. The two appeared as Trump administration was digging into its heels, refusing to bring Garcia back to the US at one point, Salvadoran resident Bukele called him a terrorist. There's no proof of that. How could I bring. How can I smuggle a terrorist back into the country? Stop it, you unctuous piece of shit. A Supreme Court ruling is directing the government to, quote, facilitate the return. That's a weird word. Now Trump administration is arguing that what facilitate means saying they just need to remove any obstacles to return them, not actually bring him back. Also, the agenda for today's White House meeting Political reports. A team of defense contractors is pitching the White House on a plan to expand deportations to El Salvador Salvador. I'm not sure what's more frightening, the legal implications. The administration cozing up to another unsavory leader with disguise. This one calls himself the world's coolest dictator. He's certainly the world's most oily dictator I've seen of late. He just seems Just completely just in it for the money. He's very popular, let me say, in El Salvador. I know a lot of people from Salvador, and they like him because he cleaned up a lot of the gang violence there by just arresting everybody. Very similar to the Philippines with Duterte. But of course, he's gone overboard, as they all do, with unlimited power. And so they're just pretending this guy's a terrorist. And just, you know, when reporters were justifiably asking about this, Trump mocked them. Then Rubio jumped in about that. The Supreme Court has no purchase over the way the government decides to do foreign policy. Only the President does. What a waste of breath that guy has become. So, anyway, anyway, thoughts? Legal implications? World's coolest dictator.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, El Salvador was the murder capital of the world. And so this guy's very popular. But basically, basically, he just started rounding up people who had a tattoo that said they had a gang affiliation. So there's tremendous collateral damage there. And you have to decide, do you opt for rights and with some crime and inconvenience and cost, or do you go full autocrat? And we said this on the last show, when you round up people, it takes a different complexion. This is a form of rounding up people. There are just some innocent people being rounded up. And what is just insane is these people supposedly are Christians, right? They are all very fond of holding the Bible if you know that you have taken an innocent person and sent them to a hell scale shape. And Bill Maher summarized it perfectly. We can bring a man back from space, but we can't get someone back from El Salvador. Of course we could get them back. Of course we could get them back. And then the weirdest moment was this weirdo Kristi Noem, posing it with guns after having a Sephora explode all over her face. It felt like a fucking Cinemax film where she was gonna start having sex with all the prisoners.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

It's like, this is just a snuff film. This is weird, people. And also, you can't don't hold Bibles. When you start taking people and sending them incorrectly unjustifiably. It's like, for God's sakes, have you no sense of decency? It's just.

[Kara Swisher]

And why wouldn't Bukele take our money and create a Guantanamo there? That's what he's doing. Why wouldn't he take our money? It's good for him. And he doesn't care who is innocent, by the way. It's not his business to care who's innocent or not. But if we send someone who's innocent there and it looks like many of them were or had no criminal background that were sent to these prisons, the Venezuelans in particular. Because Venezuela won't take their people back, you can't send them to prison. You just can't put them in another country and let them go. I guess if you have to do with this heinous stuff you're doing. But to put them in a prison and they, I mean, was it 60 minutes showed up. They had 75% of them had no criminal background whatsoever. They just had a tattoo to their mother with a crown on it. Just really look, I mean, I'm sorry. If that was the case, Pete Hegseth would be in a Salvadoran prison. He's got a lot of tattoos. So I just, it's really the worst thing is them trying to parse what the. After Trump promised he would follow what the Supreme Court said. He's not following what the Supreme Court said. The same thing they're doing, they were supposed to let back in AP into the press cycle. They're not letting, they're barring AP even though they were ruled against. They just don't do it. They're lawless as a government.

[Scott Galloway]

I think you summarize it perfectly. I don't understand the whole idea of roundups. We send a slash vote. Just be careful when you tolerate this. Just wait for the knock on your door. And the other theme this goes to is the following. The only thing I know about these people is who's not being deported and that is rich people. People.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I can think of a lot of criminals. Rich criminals.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, you're again, in America, the whole idea of a constitution and laws is to protect the most vulnerable. The rich are protected by the law. They're not bound by it.

[Kara Swisher]

I love that line.

[Scott Galloway]

And the poor are bound by the law but not protected by it. And I can't name a person, nobody in the top quintile of income earning Americans or who is here illegal, who has money. Money has been taken. This is what is so mendacious, so unchristian, so un American, such a violation of our Constitution. Is that the basis of your quality as a government is how the poorest and most vulnerable are treated, whether it's a 14 year old who's a victim of incest or an undocumented worker. And by the way, folks, I mean, let's just go to undocumented workers as we demonize people for a bump in our Q rating, a third of Fast food workers are undocumented. You could take the top 10 fast food companies to a statistically significant sample of raids and say 22%, 25% of McDonald's or Jack in the Box workers are undocumented. We're fining you $100,000 a day per percentage, and guess what? You'd end it. Here's the dirty secret. Immigration is the secret sauce of America. But the most profitable part of immigration is illegal immigration because they pay Social Security taxes, but they don't collect Social Security. They pay taxes for our cops and firemen, but they don't call cops because they're worried about being deported. So we have turned a blind eye. If we wanted to stop this problem, we would find the employers, but we're not interested in doing that. We want to pretend that this is a runaway problem. And to be clear, it did get run away. It got out of hand. 250,000 people crossing the border in December of 23. But folks, we have purposely ignored this problem because. Because illegal immigrants are super fucking profitable.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. Except you know what, Scott? They're profitable in terms of creating prisons and putting them in it. It's profitable for a very different group of people, is that we round them up and we put them in these camps, which is what we did with the Japanese. And we were a shameful part of our history. You know, a lot of these people are also like, let's figure out who. Like the woman who got grabbed off the street. Remember that video with all the people in the mail masks coming up to her. She has not done. They've found out she's done nothing wrong. She's done nothing wrong except write an op ed that was vaguely and politely against what was happening. And now foreign students here in this country are so scared. And I've heard from many are scared of saying anything or doing anything. And if you have even a minor weed violation, you're getting taken, whatever excuse they can have something you wrote or something else, you can get taken and you should have to appear. It's called habeas corpus. Everyone requires a person in custody to appear before a judge. It's one of the core fundamental rights that protects against arbitrary state action. And he is trying to suspend habeas corpus for ridiculous reasons, for ridiculous and nonsensical reasons that we're all in danger and we're not. So anyway, world's coolest dictator. You're not cool, you're uncool. If you have to call yourself the world's coolest dictator, you're not cool. And speaking of not cool, let's move on to some lighter news, other wastes of time and money. In a giant publicity summit for Jeff Bezos, six women are launched into space aboard a giant penis. Lauren Sanchez, Katy Perry, Gayle King and three others made a 10 minute trip on Blue Origin's New Shepard rocket and returned safely to Earth, thank goodness. Noted science aficionados Oprah Winfrey, Kris Jenner and Khloe Kardashian watch from the launch site in West Texas. It's the first time an all female crew has been in space since 1963. And yes, Scott, they did fly above the Karman line. Just so you know. So reaction, Scott.

[Scott Galloway]

Their outfits, I don't know if you heard, but they called Houston and they said, houston, we have a problem. And Houston said, what is it? And he said, well, you should know what it is.

[Kara Swisher]

That's your joke.

[Scott Galloway]

Actually, Actually, Kara, I was hoping that we'd get to see them masturbate because I'd like to see them. Oh, no, I'd like to see them defile gravity. I could keep going. I could keep going. Look. Hey, look, at the end of the day, it's such a. Yeah, fine. Good for them. Good for them.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm fine. They can fly up there with their outfits or their slinky outfits, whatever they want to do. Here's what I don't like pretending it's a feminist movement. It's just not. It's just a bunch of ladies. And their interviews show that because they're talking about their eyeshadow and their eyeliner and et cetera, they're going up there. It's a total PR stunt. You are not here to save women. I'm sorry. If you wanted to save women, you'd be saving the woman who was grabbed off the street. You'd be saving all kinds of things. Or you'd be pushing up against Facebook and saying, we really shouldn't be doing things to young girls that make them feel bad. This is not. Of all the things you could do to help women, this is not one of them. And that's how I feel about it. But have fun.

[Scott Galloway]

You don't know who a real female astronaut is. Sally Ride, a PhD in physics. PhD in physics. Learned how to operate that crazy robotic army and as Megan Kelly would say, openly lesbian. And spent a ton of time in space. Didn't make a lot of money. I mean, Sally Ride is our astronaut. These folks, I agree.

[Kara Swisher]

There were some science people on board. There were some science people. Whatever There were, but still. It's just a stunt. It's a stunt. It's not feminist. It's just a stunt. And how much fun Oprah and all the rest of you have. But there's some serious shit happening, so maybe stop pretending you're doing something you're not.

[Scott Galloway]

Have at it. I don't resent them for it. Have at it. Have fun. Go at it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. I just don't like the feminist thing. Okay. Okay. Last thing. Sally wasn't openly lesbian, just so you know.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, she wasn't? Well, I meant I was a play on. Notice how no one has ever described me as openly heterosexual. No one has ever said openly heterosexual. Podcaster. That was my favorite part about her attack on you. As if, as if you're, you're not allowed to be openly lesbian.

[Kara Swisher]

I am openly allowed.

[Scott Galloway]

She's openly lesbian. At least you'd have openly.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a real old thing.

[Scott Galloway]

At least, good madam, you'd have the dignity to be a closeted lesbian.

[Kara Swisher]

Closeted lesbian. I've been a cl. I was never really in a. I was in a closet. That's not true. I was not openly lesbian at the beginning of my journey of lesbianity, but. Which started at age 4. But we're not going into it with Megyn Kelly. What a she devil she is. Anyway, anyway. Last thing. Bill Maher says he wasn't high at his White House dinner with President Trump, even though he also claims that Trump was, quote, gracious in measure. The comedian described his March 31 visit with the president during a monologue at the top of his Friday show. People felt it was controversial. The Kadira was organized by illustrious statesman Kid Rock. Bill said that he and musician, quote, share a belief that there's gotta be something better than hurling insults from 3,000 miles away. Although Bill's pretty fucking good at. Here's what he had to say about his interaction with Trump. He's much more self aware than he lets on in public. Look, I get it. It doesn't matter who he is at a private dinner with a comedian. It matters who he is on the world stage. I'm just taking as a positive that this person exists. Because everything I've ever not liked about him was, I swear to God, absent. At least on this night with this guy. Okay, I, I'm going to be on Bill Maher show in a couple of weeks. I think you are too. Are you going to be on?

[Scott Galloway]

No, I was supposed to be on Friday and I, I, I, I had a tough time trying to Figure out a way to be on with Steve Bannon and I'm. Something about the idea, in a little way, normalizing Nazi salutes. I just, I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Good for you.

[Scott Galloway]

I didn't know how to thread the needle there, but anyway, that's right.

[Kara Swisher]

We talked about it. I'm glad you did that.

[Scott Galloway]

I called you and I asked your advice. I called your advice, I said ducko and asked your advice.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you're a great panelist there. Go ahead, you start. You start. I have some thoughts, too.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, I, I, I think Bill Maher did and Joe and M, I think when the President calls you and says, come to the Oval Office, I think you go. And I think that him trying to show him not immediately going to the kind of polarized, this guy's a fucking idiot. And acknowledging that he's a charming guy or that maybe trying to provide some comfort that he's not as crazy as we think and he's self aware and he listens. I think that's important. The only thing, and this might be my bias, is that someone who is so angry and aggressive, and I'm talking about the president now, against people. I've heard this about President Trump, that when he meets you, he's nice and he's charming, and then a few minutes later, he'll basically say vile things about you to his 200 million followers. I think someone who's nice to you to your face and then shitposts you behind your back in a way that really hurts your reputation, I think there's a word for, for that asshole. I much prefer someone. And I think you're like this. I think you're more likely, who do you want? It's like if you're gonna be critical of someone, trying to do it in a constructive way to them personally and then speak well of them, or at least gently behind their back, I think that is the worst role model for our young people.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I agree. I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

But I'm glad he did it. I think he was smart to do it. I think it's a dignified thing to do. I thought it's an imposs, impossible needle to thread because people who hate Trump are angry at him for going, they're angry at him for acknowledging the President has some positive qualities. I think it's kind of an impossible position or needle to thread for Bill.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, here's what I think happened. He was getting very sharp on Trump, very sharp, very tough. And they decided to neuter him a little bit by being charming. I think he has Been doing some really. He has been, he tries to do the down the middle, contrarian thing a lot of the time, but he has been the sharp, sharpest attacks on Trump among comics in which there are many, by the way. So I think they were trying, I thought they were trying to neuter him and it worked in that regard. Now, you know, look, I think it's right to go to the dinner. That would be really interesting. But to say, oh look, he's charming in person. Like, I'm sure Goebbels was thrilling at a cocktail party, my friend. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, sure, yeah, lots of people.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, Mussolini was great to.

[Kara Swisher]

Party with Mussolini was so much fucking fun. He'd put a hat, he'd put a lampshade on his head and we'd dance all night and you know, and you know, the terr. I don't know what to say. I just am like, so Bill, I won't bring this up with Bill if he lets me on now, but was he lying to you at dinner or to the world? Which one? Because he is a terrible person. Publicly terrible. The stuff he did today, terrible. And there's nothing charming about keeping a person who is unjustly jailed in jail and then laughing about it and then haranguing reporters about it. There's nothing charming about most of the things. There's nothing charming about ruining your friend's business. There's nothing charming about it. So I just, honestly that's what I kept thinking of. Like, I'm sure, like any nasty piece of shit is charming person and there are a lot of them that I have dealt with. But you should have gone. But don't give me this he's charming. Cause he's not, he's just not charming. And he's, he'll probably the minute you go after him again, which I hope and pray you will, and I know you will actually. Cause he doesn't pull punches a lot. Sometimes he does, but he doesn't really as a comic. So the minute you go after him again, he's like, I was so nice to him. I made him dinner. I was, I showed him off the White House. I showed him my bedroom, whatever. He's going to come after you. So that's, I don't know, whatever anyway. But I, I probably Would you go to dinner if he asked us? Do you think he'd ever ask us to. He doesn't give a fuck about us.

[Scott Galloway]

But, well, I agree we're not on his Raiders train. I, I, I said this about Joe. Mika, I believe this about Bill Maher. I think if the president calls you and asks you to come to the White House, I just need to go.

[Kara Swisher]

I just wouldn't be as polite in person. I wouldn't be like, oh, hey, can I have a role? That's the kind of thing. Anyway, we'll see. We'll see what happens. I'll tell this to Bill's face when I see him. Anyway, Scott, one more quick. Because I do that, Bill. I say things to your face that I say in front of your back, behind your back, anywhere near your back.

[Scott Galloway]

He's my hero.

[Kara Swisher]

I know.

[Scott Galloway]

That guy's my hero.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. I'm glad you didn't go, Scott Galloway. Now I like you even more. Gh Go on. Is that possible? Good for you, Scott Galloway. Good for you. I know you like being on that show too.

[Scott Galloway]

I do. I love it.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. Well, have him back, Bill. Don't be a douche. And also have him back. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

[Scott Galloway]

Fox Creative.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

Goodbye.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. May I start?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, you go ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me just say two things. Television is so happy place for me these days. Watching different things. And this weekend there's two shows. G20 with Viola Davis where she plays a kick ass woman president who like kicks ass. They go to the JISOO summit. There's a South African guy who takes over all the G20, it's called G20. Excuse me. And she kicks ass and wins out. It's like Harrison Ford's Air Force One. And let me just say, say I love Viola Davis. I love her kicking ass and killing South African terrorists. Or maybe they're from Australia, I don't know. They have that accent. So good. It was so bad and so good at the same time. It was Air Force One but Viola Davis. So there was some good acting in there too. Fan fucking tastic. Second one hacks the season premiere again. Two women, Hannah Einbender and. Oh God, I'm blanking.

[Scott Galloway]

Jean Smart.

[Kara Swisher]

Jean Smart. Oh my God, it has risen a level of like. It was already one of my favorite shows. I've heard it's great this season, the two of them. @ some point I'm like, just kiss you two. Because they're going. They're insults of each other and the going back and forth. And then there's a poignant moment in the first two episodes about heartbreak and I just love this show so much. So win, win, win, win, win with these badass women, I have to say. And they're just, they're obviously doge falling short of its goal. It was supposed to save $2 trillion. Then it went to 1 trillion now, he said, Elon said in a meeting that it's 150 billion. Dave Fahrenholt, as always, he's now at the New York Times, showed the math to be wrong again. That is probably even less money that he's saving, but we don't even know how much he's costing for the savings. That's not in this. So he's not saving any money and he's causing incredible harm and cut. Cutting things without thinking about it and doing it surgically so we're not benefited as a people on stuff. We should reform government as everybody thinks. So what an incredible waste of our time and energy to have this ridiculous person prance all over the place saying he's saving money and then of course, he's not delivering. It's the same thing. That this is a theme of his life right now, is over, promising and under delivering. Whether it's the cybertruck, whether it's autonomous cars. This is just such a. Such a ridiculous thing, this Doge thing, given how much energy and time and pain it has caused people unnecessarily. That is my fail.

[Scott Galloway]

I like it and I was going to do a prediction, but I'll try and reshape it as a win and a fail. The fail is what you. I'll just piggyback off what you said. Essentially, if this audit proved anything, it said there's a lot less inefficiency and waste and fraud than we thought. I mean, this is about as clean a bill of health as. Anyway, because they were dying to find fraud and they just didn't find very much. And most of their claims of fraud and savings ended up to be fraudulent themselves, and that they were lies. And we predicted he would exit. He's gone. I think he's already gone. I think he's already figured out this.

[Kara Swisher]

He was with Trump the other night.

[Scott Galloway]

At that stupid W. Yeah, but that's proximity to power. I think Doge is basically. The curtain is closing on Doge. It just didn't work. It was a distraction, fine, but it's not. But it's not working. The reality is Americans, again see above, not willing to endure pain. They have to face a hard decision here. It's the hard thing about the hard things, and that is if we're serious about being a country that doesn't spend $7 trillion and take in 5 trillion in tax receipts, there's only two things you can do, folks. You either have to cut entitlements or raise taxes. And the answer is yes and at Some point we're going to have to figure out a way to do that and, and, or just wait till we get shoved in a corner and the people who own our debt can basically start calling the shots, which they're doing now. In a company that gets so highly levered, basically the bank owes you and this is what's happening to us. Our creditors are beginning to owe us. This is Doge. Doge was jazz hands. It didn't. A clean bill of health. When we decide to elect a grownup, we're gonna have to make some very hard decisions here. My win, and it sort of went with this was my prediction. You're going to see a flurry of deals. The art of the deal, the basic premise was, okay, he's a negotiator, he's bringing these people to the table. First off, we just need to dispel the notion this guy's a good business person. He's a rich kid that would have made more money if he'd taken all of his massive inheritance and put it into ETFs. His business career is basically a series of bankrupted companies and unpaid subcontractors. So let's just stop this nonsense that he has any fucking clue what he's doing in terms of business. He has unwittingly inspired unbelievable. An unbelievable torrent tsunami of deals, cross border trade deals. But it won't be with us. The EU is talking to Latin America. Japan, South Korea and China are talking. This has set off incredible incentive for a ton of nations around the world to start thinking about free trade zones, to become more dependent upon each other, to take take the cost of reconfiguring their supply chain and excising America from the supply chain. They're thinking, how can we make up for some of that lost economic growth that this is going to cost us? I know. Let's lower each other's trade barriers. The unintended consequence of this is that the US is about to trade off a lot of its own prosperity and it's going to leak to other Western nations who are talking to each other other and cooperating and coordinating. Now you're going to see trade deals between Mexico and Canada. You're going to see trade deals between the EU and China. This is going to the intended. What they claim they were going to accomplish for America, they've accomplished for everyone else but America.

[Kara Swisher]

That's true. They're going to get all the avocados in Canada and Mexicans are going to get all the good maple syrup. Do you hear that? People, it's finished. Avocado toast and pancakes are done for us as Americans.

[Scott Galloway]

Much less lumber or gypsum drywall. You want to talk about the cost of building right now? Gypsum drywall for Mexico or lumber.

[Kara Swisher]

I just renovated my house. I'm so pleased that I did it last year. My contractor said it would have been double.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm interviewing Mark Carney this afternoon. What would you ask him?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, what? What? Scott Galloway.

[Scott Galloway]

He reached out.

[Kara Swisher]

For what? Which show? Which show?

[Scott Galloway]

I wanted to do it for Pivot of Raging Moderates. He said he wanted to do it for profit Conversations. I think he wants to talk about young men.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Good. Well, that's. I heard you have, by the way, you have another podcast you didn't tell me about.

[Scott Galloway]

Which one's this?

[Kara Swisher]

The what? The man, the men thing with Scaramucci and Smerconi.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, that's a limited series. He called me and said, let's do four pods.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that's good for your book coming out. Good. I'm very excited. You cat around on me quite a bit. That's okay. I don't mind. I just want to know about it. I didn't want to.

[Scott Galloway]

It's alcohol. I hope it has nothing to do with our relationship. I just like to wake up with a strange man lipstick all over my day.

[Kara Swisher]

I want. Okay, I know you did. I'm ignoring it completely. I would like to make your book, like best selling.

[Scott Galloway]

Defile Gravity. Defile Gravity. Katy Perry.

[Kara Swisher]

I want to make your book a ton.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me hear you roar.

[Kara Swisher]

I can't believe I.

[Scott Galloway]

You 90s pop star Wonton bitch. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

He defied gravity. Anyway, let me just say for one thing, Scott said there's a lot of reporting from Rolling Stone and Puck, that he's annoying people at the White House. They question if he's high. And Republicans on Capitol Hill are no longer terrified him either. That said, Scott, only thing is, he's leaving. The Washington Post reported today incorrectly that he's leaving Doge staffers in high power jobs at multiple federal agencies. So he's not out of there. He's like mold. He's putting all kinds of stuff and the security implications and other people you don't know about that don't look like Elon Musk will still remain problematic for our country in those positions. So just remember that, all right? Okay. There you have it. Those are good. But please, for the love of God, watch Viola Davis kick some ass. It's so good. It's so good.

[Scott Galloway]

I think that's just an attempt to address your PTSD and pretend that Vice President Harris won the election.

[Kara Swisher]

No, no, no. She couldn't guess heritage couldn't have done this. This was just trust me, watch it and then call me back. I'm just telling you. I'm just telling you. You'll love it. It's so much fun because she's won an Oscar, isn't she? She won an Oscar. Whatever. She deserves an Oscar. She won an Emmy. An Oscar, Whatever. This woman is like top actor just chewing up the. It's so enjoyable. She did one a TV show years ago called how to Get Away with Murder, which you should watch again, where she also chewed up the scenery with her Oscar winning acting abilities. Anyway, she's so talented. She's so talented. But I love that she's doing this and just punching people in the face with the machine, the whole thing. It's fantastic. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551, pivot. Also, pivot is up for a Webby Award for best business pod and we are asking for your vote. And some of other your other podcasts are also up. So vote for Prof. G. I don't know if an is, but in any case, vote for us. Go to vote.webbyawards.com to cast your ballot. We won last year and we're hoping for a twofer elsewhere in the Scott and Kara universe. I just did a whole panel on tariffs with trade law expert Raj Bala Puck's Bill Cohen and Katherine Rampel from the Washington Post. Let's listen to a quick clip. The only way I can explain it is that we're dealing with the madness of King George type moment. Maybe Trump is trading on the volatility and certainly there's a lot of money to be made if you know what he's going to do from one minute to the next, which only he seems to know. But all of his explanations for what he is trying to do are completely incoherent and self contradictory and come back to, well, he's just like tariffs for a really long time. Anyway, it was a great interview. All of them had different things to add, just FYI.

[Scott Galloway]

Just I think Katherine Rampel is a total comer. I think she's gonna be really, I think you're gonna hear her name a lot. I think she is exceptionally talented.

[Kara Swisher]

She's great.

[Scott Galloway]

She had an outstanding moment on that show. I think it's a fucking food fight.

[Kara Swisher]

Whatever CNN on Abbey film showed. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And whoever the Republic Republican is was trying to defend Scott Jennings, whoever the Republicans was trying to prevent.

[Kara Swisher]

I call him Bad Scott. He's Bad Scott.

[Scott Galloway]

He's trying to defend Bannon. He was like, it was a wave. And Catherine Rampel goes, give us that wave. Give us that wave. And he just sat there like someone had just been caught masturbating or defiling gravity.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Defiling gravity. Yeah. Anyway, we love her. All right, Scott, that's another show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Lara Neman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, Brin Ruff and Kate Gallagher. Bernie Intertod engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Ms. Sierverio and Dan Shalon. Nishak Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great rest of the week.