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- [00:02]
Scott Galloway
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- [02:02]
Kara Swisher
I'd like some non dickless wonders to say no, we're just not going to vote for it and you guys go back to the drawing fucking board. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- [02:16]
Scott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- [02:17]
Kara Swisher
Where are you?
- [02:18]
Scott Galloway
I'm in Ibiza.
- [02:19]
Kara Swisher
Ibiza? Is that how you say it there?
- [02:21]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, I think that's how they say it. Ibiza. It's actually, it's an interesting lesson in branding. They've done a great job of associating themselves with these like Vegas has artists in residence, they have DJs in residence and it's Kind of known as this sort of party island that's also very sort of boho chic. It's really. Anyways, it's nice. Nice here.
- [02:41]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I just think rich people, that's all. I think when I think of Ibiza.
- [02:45]
Scott Galloway
A lot of young people actually naked.
- [02:46]
Kara Swisher
Rich people actually in pretty good shape.
- [02:49]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, well, naked young people is why people come here. I think. I think. I think rich people come to see naked young people, but that's just me.
- [02:58]
Kara Swisher
So the Scott summer vacation is beginning. I see. It's happening.
- [03:01]
Scott Galloway
It's just getting going, Kara.
- [03:03]
Kara Swisher
We did some taping at Scott Galloway's house, which was great. And Scott and I are gonna tape something together for my secret CNN show.
- [03:11]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, the not so secret cnn. What are you doing, by the way?
- [03:14]
Kara Swisher
Oh, I'm not telling you.
- [03:16]
Scott Galloway
Really?
- [03:16]
Kara Swisher
Okay.
- [03:16]
Scott Galloway
Huh.
- [03:17]
Kara Swisher
We're gonna take your liver, trust me.
- [03:20]
Scott Galloway
No one wants it.
- [03:21]
Kara Swisher
And replace it with another with it with a synthetic liver. I don't know. Something. It's gonna be cool.
- [03:26]
Scott Galloway
It's like my liver would. Where they duct tape it to a tree and then put a tap under it and it turns into a great tree.
- [03:33]
Kara Swisher
Oh, dear. Oh, my goodness. No, no. It's going to be fun. It's a long story. I dressed up in colonial outfit this week, and I can't explain why, but I did. I was wearing a tri cornered hat. I'm surprisingly good looking in those outfits.
- [03:46]
Scott Galloway
I'll give you this. It was surprising.
- [03:49]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, well, I'm telling you, I looked good. I looked good. The children were surprised.
- [03:55]
Scott Galloway
What have you been up to?
- [03:56]
Kara Swisher
Working on this thing for cnn. Family stuff. Did a lot of kids stuff. I was in Boston with my in laws who were great. I visited some friends from high school, but mostly family stuff.
- [04:08]
Scott Galloway
God, I so win. I mean, that sounds great. That sounds great.
- [04:12]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [04:13]
Scott Galloway
I'm in Ibiza with DJs and hot young naked people and you're doing Civil War reenactments and hanging out with your in laws.
- [04:20]
Kara Swisher
No, not Civil War. Revolutionary War. Try to keep your wars together. It was a tri cornered hat that I was wearing. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, actually, in a very serious way, because over the weekend, other people had very tragic weekends, including the flooding in Texas. And of course, we will talk about other things, like winners and losers from Trump's big beautiful Bill. But first, let's get to the latest fuel on the fire of the big, beautiful fight between Elon Musk and Donald Trump, which is just getting worse, as we predicted.
- [04:48]
Scott Galloway
Scott Galloway, you didn't know you predicted this.
- [04:50]
Kara Swisher
I did. I know him so well. He couldn't stand the deficit. I know him. He's talked about it for years and had to listen to it. So Elon is lashing out over the lack of findings. Now today, he's moved on in an FBI and DOJ review of the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. This was the thing he tweeted about when he started his fight with Trump. Then he took it back and now he's back. I knew it. He's got a hair up his ass about this and a bunch of other things. But the departments have reportedly concluded there was no Epstein client list, no evidence of blackmillin. That enhanced footage proves Epstein killed himself. Early Monday morning, Elon posted so. And then what is Ghislaine Maxwell in prison for? Stuff like this does not improve people's faith in government. He also, you know, Pam Bondi's gotten herself of a mess thing. She had a list in front of her and then of course she said there is no list. And of course Dan Bongino and Kash Patel have made their careers saying Epstein was killed and now say he isn't. Let's talk about the findings really quickly. They do make Bondi look suspicious, even if you don't believe this. And I know you had a different opinion about the Epstein thing than I did. I thought it was just to kill themselves. But that's not all our girls are fighting about. Trump is calling Elon, quote, off the rails following Musk's weekend announcement that he'll form a new political party, the America Party. Musk has called Trump's big beautiful bill, quote, a disgusting abomination and suggested targeting some key House and Senate seats in 2026. It's actually somewhat canny. If he gets enough of them, he can certainly cause a lot of trouble. Tesla shares are falling in pre market trading on Monday for a lot of reasons, including results. But this is not helping. Here's what Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen had to say about it on Sunday to CNN's Dana Bash. And I will say ahead of it, he sounds like such a prig, but let's go.
- [06:39]
Scott Galloway
The principles of Doge were very popular. I think if you looked at the polling, Elon was not. So I believe that the boards of directors at his various companies wanted him to come back and run those companies, which he is better at than anyone. So I imagine that those board of directors did not like this announcement yesterday and will be encouraging him to focus on his business activity, not his political activities.
- [07:05]
Kara Swisher
Gosh, thanks, Mom. Just honestly, Scott, bust. It's none of your business what he does. But in any case, all the bickering has hurt his relationship with Beijing too because Tesla sales are falling off there, as we have discussed many times, because BYD has great cars and that's the way it goes there, in there. So tell me a little bit about this, Scott. How do you feel? It's just continuing and actually I think it can cause some real damage here, actually. But maybe you don't.
- [07:31]
Scott Galloway
Well, typically any third party that gets any traction, it has a center of gravity, a reason for being the Green Party. It's pretty clear what they think. The Ross Pro's independent movement wanted a flat tax and that had some substance to it. Andrew Yang's party that he tried to start, I thought had some substance to it. He's known for ubi. The substance of musk trying to start a party is the following or the center of gravity is. I'm disappointed, I'm no longer the first friend. His criticism that this guy is a pedophile and that this bill will add to the deficit and is irresponsible. He was down with all of that when he had input around who was gonna be the next director of the CIA or the irs. It didn't seem to bother him then. But basically, since he's been kind of unceremoniously kicked out of the White House, he's decided we need a third party. So this thing doesn't. It's sort of dead on arrival in the sense that it doesn't, it doesn't have a reason for being. And in addition, as a construct, the United States electoral system just isn't set up for a third party. It's set up to block any third party we have. The system is essentially rigged for two. It's a first past the post winner take all elections. In some nations they have sort of a parliamentary or representative or proportional representation like Germany, Sweden and Israel. They routinely see viable third, fourth and fifth parties because seats are allocated based on vote share, not an all or nothing. So when you have all or nothing, it's binary. So all third parties do when they're successful, and I don't think this one will be is they're spoilers. Bill Clinton should not have won the presidency, but Ross Perot took 18% of the vote, probably like 11 to 7 from Bush, Clinton respectively, and Clinton became president. The Jill Stein people would argue stole the presidency. Ralph Nader people think is what handed W the presidency. So they can be spoilers. But this one has no reason for being this one comes across as sour grapes. Scott Besant comically pretending or trying to call on the board of directors to actually do something here is laughable. So I think this, like most third parties will get. I think this will die a quick death, but we'll see.
- [09:51]
Kara Swisher
All right, let me put something out for you, because one of the things that he's been talking about is knocking off a couple of seats, Right. Given how close these elections are, two, ten to whatever, it's always within two or three. Right. What if he goes after two Senate seats and eight House seats and then suddenly has them, encourages and gets a certain number of people into place that could block everything. Right. There is that Nobody's ever really talked about it like that. And if he gets those congresspeople in and they are beholden to him or they agree with him.
- [10:25]
Scott Galloway
Right.
- [10:26]
Kara Swisher
And people find it appealing because I do think people don't find the Democrats or the Republic. There's a who RINO group. You know, Mark Cuban is like, this is a good idea. And I think they all think of it as blocking these two parties. And so instead of thinking it like, let's have a third party, let's have a third blocker is how I look at it. And so if they could do that and they're the difference between how hard could it be to get six seats? I don't know. I don't know. I don't think it's impossible, that's for sure. But a lot of people who I'm surprised are sort of like, huh, interesting idea. And I think that's what he's doing here, and he's actually kind of said it in that regard, is I can find a way to block, you know, them from voting these things in and giving nobody the majority, really. Essentially. Any thoughts on that?
- [11:15]
Scott Galloway
Well, I think you're right, but we're talking about two different things. One is, I don't think a third party, a viable third party, is viable. What you're talking about is influence. And Elon Musk is already proven he can have massive influence, There's a decent argument that he's the reason that Trump was elected.
- [11:30]
Kara Swisher
Correct? Yeah.
- [11:31]
Scott Galloway
So when you're worth $400 billion and you have a big media platform and you're bold and unafraid as Musk is, you're absolutely right. He could. One thing Peter Thiel could call vice president of Vance and say, I need you to promote a NASA should be focused solely on, you know, going to Pluto. And he would say, yes, Mr. Thiel, Peter Thiel is the puppet master behind J.D. vance and Elon Musk until recently had a lot of control over Musk. But now that Trump is probably not running again and feels like okay, I've used this guy, I've squeezed all the juice I want from this lemon. But Elon Musk with his platform and his money unfortunately because of Citizens United could absolutely get enough people elected that owed him enough that they would have to take his column vote one way or another. But so influence or just would vote.
- [12:25]
Kara Swisher
One way or another. Like maybe there's a. There's, there is this sort of group that is like interestingly Sam Altman was saying he's politically homeless that feel politically homeless on both sides of the equation. Now that doesn't mean to say if they're centrist Democrats, they might not like them or reasonable Republicans, they might. There's this group that I think very much so if he got, you know, if he put enough money to it and the right person in some of these, if you could target six seats like, like a Mike Lawler, for example that don't have to be beholden to the Trump people. And once Trump's missing from the equation less scared you could see them just blocking legislation almost continually like until they, until the groups compromise. Which honestly is not such a bad thing. Which is why I think I haven't talked to Cuban about it. But that's my assumption that Cuban thinks is attractive. He got a lot of shit for that. For saying interesting by the way, if.
- [13:21]
Scott Galloway
Past elections are any proxy for what's going to happen in the midterms, we'll see Democrats retake control of the House at which point it'll be very hard for them to get legislation through unless to your point, they compromise the idea. Musk is absolutely has the ability and the firepower to get several people elected which could end up being a swing vote. The problem is, and I've said this over and over, he's a drug addict and he's a narcissist. And I don't think he's especially concerned or has a lot of regard for the well being of our deficit of the United States. I think he just wants power so maybe he can get it. But then what? And then what you think? I just don't.
- [13:59]
Kara Swisher
I do think this is something he has talked. The deficit thing has been on his mind for a long time. That is certainly true and I've heard it from not just him, but other people like him, right. This deficit, this overspending. And you talk about it too. I mean, it's vaguely appealing to not let them do this, right to deny them the ability to add on taxes or to take away from young people or people who marginalize people or not making the investments. The problem is there's things he's right about. Why are we continuing to double down on fossil fuels and not even if he's hurt about the EVs. Directionally it's correct compared to fossil fuels. So there's a lot of appeal to certain people. I think there's two things that I think about. One is Joe Rogan suddenly is like, wait a minute, he's taking away hard. Like that gang goes with Elon. That's a big gang, right? Like kind of thing of people who have influence. So it creates a chaos, which is sort of where he lives. The second thing is that the response from Republicans has been fascinating. It's so over the top. Trump himself that. Do you see that long word? It looks like it was written by Stephen Miller because it had some punctuation, but it was sort of like over, like right in the middle of so many other crises for him to take the time to do like the giant paragraph and full of like, he's off the rails, he takes drugs, he's throwing everything at him, which means he's worried because if he wasn't worried, he'd ignore him, presumably. And then secondly, Scott Jennings on cnn.
- [15:29]
Scott Galloway
You know, we'll see where they go with it. My humble advice to Elon, who I admire very much actually, is that you may be dividing the forces of people who want to save Western civilization to the benefit of the people who don't.
- [15:42]
Kara Swisher
I work for cnn. I'm sorry, cnn. But that you let him say things like that.
- [15:46]
Scott Galloway
It's a little dramatic.
- [15:48]
Kara Swisher
Dramatic. What a drama queen. And what a terrible thing to say. I'm sort of welcoming Musk to mow those people down, like, you know what I mean, in terms of causing them problem. And they're all very, very wor about this. So I just am paying attention to their response, which is off the charts because they understand the damage he could do, including around Epstein. Even though, I mean, how are you feeling about the Epstein thing now that this was released? Because you were sort of. Kara, he was killed, you remember? You were like on that.
- [16:18]
Scott Galloway
I feel. I mean, I think it's old news, really.
- [16:20]
Kara Swisher
I don't.
- [16:21]
Scott Galloway
Oh, really? I think they keep pulling the ghost out of Epstein. But there was a couple things there. The first is, as progressives, what Elon's doing now is Nothing but upside for us. Distinct of the viability of a third party. Distinct of what? His motivations are.
- [16:35]
Kara Swisher
Correct.
- [16:35]
Scott Galloway
His primary motivation is that he hates Donald Trump and feels like he was treated poorly. I don't believe that he's that concerned. Fine. Maybe he's on the record as not liking the deficit. Well, he was fine with it when he got to show up to the West Wing and Hot Topic outfits and talk about a brave new world and everyone was like, you're the co president. He seemed to be comfortable with these deficits.
- [16:56]
Kara Swisher
Yes, agreed.
- [16:57]
Scott Galloway
And with, with everything he knew about Donald Trump and Epstein up until that point. But he is fueled right now, as far as I can tell, by rage and revenge. And if he gets people elected who are against Trump, I'm all for it. Great. The other thing is, and this is part of the problem with what Scott Jennings represents, is that America doesn't realize they're fighting the wrong enemy. And that is, and I think the left is just as guilty of this as the right, is that you're asked to pick a team and if you ever, like, want to hang out with the other team, you're treated as an apostate.
- [17:32]
Kara Swisher
Absolutely.
- [17:33]
Scott Galloway
And people, and we've experienced this, we.
- [17:36]
Kara Swisher
Get it all the time.
- [17:37]
Scott Galloway
I still feel like, kind of angry and bitter out of all these, all these people who, when we were talking about or expressing concerns about Biden, like, you don't understand the assignment. You're going to get Trump elected. You're anti Amer. I mean, it was just like, no.
- [17:50]
Kara Swisher
Oh, I posted about Musk. They're like, we don't want him. I'm like, we kind of do. Like, what are you talking. He's gonna, like, crash all their bumper cars. People.
- [17:58]
Scott Galloway
There is nothing at this point, given the dynamics, there's nothing but upside for progressives and there's nothing but downside for the President. But what's also clear from this is that the President is much more powerful and much more popular than Musk. And because it feels right now, he feels like, quite frankly, it feels like Musk is flailing a little bit and angry. We'll see what happens. But I'm here for it, because he's not. Musk isn't going to use his power and his money to get people elected who will support the President's agenda. Right now, that's something I don't, I'm fairly certain of. So fine. My enemy's enemy is my friend. So welcome.
- [18:32]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, I don't mind some centrists in the middle. Just Blocking things I don't like. You know, you see the Freedom Caucus, we're going to block it. And then they never do. Like, they never do. There's such a bunch of like dickless wonders. Like, well, Chip Roy, I really can't take this. Oh yes, I voted for it. Like, I'd like some non dickless wonders to say, no, we're just not going to vote for it. And you guys go back to the drawing fucking board and do something, something better. And I agree on the censorious of the left being exhausting. That said, Scott Jennings wins the prize on his like, yes, Scott, I'm against Western civilization.
- [19:05]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, but Scott Jennings, go fish. Scott Jennings is playing the same role as Meghan McCain as God, I forget the little guy on the all in podcast, Jason Calacanis. They're supposed to be representative of the other side, but they acquit themselves so poorly that they just cement and embolden and polish the views of the rest of the people. The only person that breaks that mold is Jessica Tarlov. And that is the four speak and it's like, okay, yeah, the tickle my sensors. And then all of a sudden the five on the five, Jessica Tarlov speaks and like, oh, she's kind of smart. Maybe she has a point. Typically the way they do these shows is that on the View they have four very progressive talks and then they have whatever her name was, Dana Hasselback or whatever, like Screech.
- [19:52]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, it's Alyssa Farah now, but she's much more reasonable. But go ahead.
- [19:55]
Scott Galloway
But she's intelligent and impressive. Typically the model used to bring have Sean Hannity, who's a compelling figure, and then have Sean Combs basically make his point.
- [20:04]
Kara Swisher
Alan Combs. It's Alan Combs.
- [20:05]
Scott Galloway
Was it Alan Combs? Excuse me? And that's what, you know, that's this person's role. That's Scott's role right now. He's there to make a point. That kind of sounds aggressive, weak and weird. And then the other Democrats just smack him down.
- [20:19]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, it's true. You're the Scott I like.
- [20:22]
Scott Galloway
It's good to know.
- [20:23]
Kara Swisher
Good Scott. I call you Good Scott. Anyway, we'll see what happens. It is certainly interesting, but at the same time, let's be clear. Musk's businesses are really suffering and could suffer even more. Including Tesla, including Starlink, including all his businesses. So he's not the. Even if he's the world's richest man, he's also someone who is not without weakness in that regard. And it's very leveraged against each other, so we'll see. Speaking of something we thought he might get a hold of, but he's obviously not now. TikTok is reportedly developing a US version of the app ahead of the upcoming sale deadline. President Trump has given the Chinese parent company ByteDance until September 17 to sell the assets, although he's extended that several times illegally. He says he's been talking. He'll be talking to China early this week about the sale and that he, quote, pretty much has a done deal. It's probably Oracle, Mark Andreessen and some version of various of its rich owners. The US version of TikTok would launch in the App Store in September, which I don't know what that means. I don't know if that's enough or what's enough. A US Version. I don't know what's going to happen. Do we care anymore, Scott? Do we? We do, but we don't.
- [21:28]
Scott Galloway
Well, it's been so. I mean, he liked it, then he didn't like it, then he liked it again, and then he found out one of his biggest donors was a big investor there. It all comes down to this. Who owns it and whether it's a US Version, that doesn't matter. It's who owns it and who has control over the algorithm.
- [21:43]
Kara Swisher
Them.
- [21:44]
Scott Galloway
And I've now come to believe that China realizes they're playing with a much stronger hand than Trump and that this guy continues to blink and that whatever they do will be sort of window dressing as opposed to. Again, who controls the algorithm and gets to decide what content to dial up to further create a new generation of nonprofit business and military leaders that basically think America sucks. I think that's the free gift with purchase that TikTok is getting in addition to their $300 billion in enterprise value. I don't think they're going to give that up. I don't think they. They have to. I think they can come up with some sort of accommodation that President Trump can claim credit for. But meanwhile, Beijing will still control the algorithm. So the only thing that matters here is who owns it.
- [22:27]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. So who. What do you. I mean, I assume it's an Oracle, Andreessen, rich guy thing, right? All his friends.
- [22:33]
Scott Galloway
I just wonder if that's gonna happen. You think it's gonna happen?
- [22:36]
Kara Swisher
I don't know. I don't know how he's gonna. He's. He's got a deal done. Like, I don't believe much of anything he's come out of his mouth, so I just don't know again, why would China. What's he going to do? What's he going to do?
- [22:47]
Scott Galloway
Well, he could, technically he could enforce the ban.
- [22:50]
Kara Swisher
Well, that's their law.
- [22:51]
Scott Galloway
But he hasn't enforced the law. He could enforce the law that's been passed by both by all branches of government that he's decided not to enforce and then it effectively would be banned. But here's the thing. China doesn't care. China has a private enterprise. They run their companies for control, not for profits. I believe Bytedance skinning only about 20% of its revenue now from the U.S. they're not afraid. He keeps blanking. So if they can come to some sort of accommodation, that again gives him a perceptual victory.
- [23:18]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, perceptual.
- [23:18]
Scott Galloway
But meanwhile, Beijing gets has their hands on the algorithm, then I can see it happening. I don't see Beijing at this point handing over TikTok to US interests.
- [23:28]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, why would they? I just don't see what. Unless they want something else, maybe. I don't know. Why would it be worth it in any way? They're managing to ruin this app, really in a lot of ways. And eventually people won't use it just like they don't use anything else. But certainly this idea. I've done a deal like he likes to. Why does he have to stick with that? It's so kind of gross and old. Manny. Like, I do deals. I'm a deal maker. The art of the deal. It's like, stop. Like, we got it. Because you don't really do good deals. You do some good deals. Some, you know, but he has to always, like, flack it anyway. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the deadly flooding in Texas and questions raised about whether officials did enough to warn people. Support for this show comes from netsuite. It's an unpredictable time for business, to say the least. With supply chain squeeze, tariffs and trade policies changing unpredictably. It's never been more important for your business to be nimble and able to adapt to whatever challenges may come. That's where NetSuite comes in. NetSuite by Oracle is your AI powered business management suite trusted by over 42,000 businesses. Businesses. NetSuite by Oracle grants you visibility on global shipments to tariff impacts to real time cash flow. With real time forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data. NetSuite helps you know what's stuck, what it's costing you, and how to pivot fast. And that's how you make Your business adaptable to an unknown future. NetSuite is the number one cloud ERP. It brings together accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one suite. And with AI embedded throughout, you can automate a lot of these everyday tasks, letting your team stay strategic and nimble. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, download a free book, Navigating Global Three Insights for Leaders at netsuite.com pivot that's netsuite.com pivot Support for Pivot comes from Deleteme Right now the headlines are chock full of data breaches and regulatory rollbacks that are making us all vulnerable. But you can do something about it with the help of Deleteme, Deleteme can make it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. They send you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it and what it removed. I have used Delete Me and I have to say it's really shocking how much information of mine is out there. I am a very careful person around privacy and putting up information. I often put up incorrect information, but it's a really difficult thing to find out how much is out there and how it is coordinated together in a way that could be very problematic for you. I have not had my information stolen, but others have, including my mom, and it was really hard to pull it back. But you really need to take control of your data and keep your private life private. By signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners, Pivot can get you 20% off your delete Me plan when you go to join deleteme.com pivot and use the promo code Pivot at checkout. The only way to get 20 off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com pivot and enter the code PIVOT at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com pivot CodePivot.
- [26:38]
Scott Galloway
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- [27:20]
Kara Swisher
Scott we're back. At least 80 people, including 28 children, are confirmed dead after a catastrophic flood swept through Central Texas, which is known as the flash flood corridor, I think over the weekend. Dozens are still missing, including 10 girls from a summer camp. Rescue efforts are still ongoing as of this recording and the finger pointing has already begun. Obviously right away. Some local officials are blaming the National Weather Service, claiming forecasts underestimated the severity of the rainfall. But meteorologists told Wired that NWS actually predicted the risk of flooding and sent warnings. This was in the middle of the night and they have these systems that they don't have sirens in this particular area. People ignore them, People ignore warnings, things like that. There's also the Doge factor. Hundreds of jobs at NWS were cut earlier this year. Some crucial positions at local offices are currently unfilled. According to the New York Times. That particular story was quite disturbing, actually. And an NWS staffer told the Texas Tribune that the region regional offices had adequate staffing and technology, saying this was us doing our jobs the best of our abilities. Which doesn't exactly make you feel confident past few days. I'll also note as this is a flood prone area, it has happened in the past back I think in the 1970s, they've considered warning systems and they did not implement them because of the cost. One local official said they were extravagant costs to put these sirens in. Particularly again, texting is hard in this area. It has lower cell phone coverage, for example. People ignore it. This also happened at the worst possible time. And Scott, you put up a number of pictures of how quickly these floods go in during the day. This was in the middle of the night or in darkness. And so it was unexpected. People were sleeping. Worst possible time this could happen. And the stories are heartbreaking. Is there any chance the Trump administration reevaluates some of those cuts? There definitely stuck in this cycle of they're to blame for what's happened. Why don't you talk a little bit about this?
- [29:19]
Scott Galloway
I don't think they will when something like this happens. I think a lot about one of those books that kind of changed or, I don't know, gave me a seminal framework for how I evaluate decisions. Is Daniel Kahneman's work specifically. Thinking fast and slow, I think it's called. And there's sort of there's system one thinking, right in that you have to have system one thinking to respond. Something an emergency happens, you fight or flight, you need to respond immediately. You need to make very quick decisions. The problem is, and what we pay our elected officials for is that we're supposed to have slow thinking. We're supposed to slow down and look at structural change and what are the things leading up to this crisis that potentially could have helped avoid it? And the system? One thinking immediately takes over. Media defaults to drama, quick narrative formation. They love heroic rescues. Politicians use shortcuts. They immediately want to fill a narrative or backfill a narrative to show. Democrats want to say this is all about climate change, this is all about the cuts. And then Republicans go really fucking crazy and claim it's evidence of some sort of deep state conspiracy to control the weather.
- [30:28]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, they love that one.
- [30:29]
Scott Galloway
The recent availability bias. Recent dramatic floods get disproportionate attention compared to ongoing prevention needs. Partisan reflexes activate. We've seen that. And the whole point of a government and the whole point of being adult is you're supposed to let your slow thinking take over and say, all right, the time pressure prevents real analysis. And that is these things demand immediate reactions, not careful evaluation. And the reality is we don't know. I mean.
- [30:56]
Kara Swisher
Correct.
- [30:57]
Scott Galloway
So for example, with the two weather services that are charged with a response and prevention and then communications, they are dramatically understaffed. They have been understaffed for a while, but we don't know, we don't have enough data yet to say with any certainty whether that understaffing or if they had been adequately staffed, if it would have resulted in a different outcome. And the problem is that these jobs are what I call invisible until there's a disaster. I always talk about jobs. Invisible until you fuck up. And that is the TSA lifeguards, vaccine research. I mean, all of these jobs, the cdc, we don't know how many pandemics the CDC has stopped because the whole point of government is that you don't appreciate how boring their work is because they prevent. We don't know how many terrorist cells have been busted up before they killed a bunch of people because they did this boring hard work that requires investment and meticulous systemic infrastructure investment. And unfortunately that doesn't make for good tv. It doesn't make for heroics, it doesn't make for speeches trying to demonstrate leadership and thoughts and prayers and people in fema. Jack. So prevention gets no credit. Voters reward visible disaster response over invisible long term infrastructure investments.
- [32:13]
Kara Swisher
Right? People in boats pulling people out of.
- [32:14]
Scott Galloway
Trees, which creates perverse political incentives. It's the same as you want to watch a TV show called er as opposed to preventive medicine that doesn't make for good evening drama. Must see TV is never like preventive. The vax, the family planning clinic. I mean it just. That doesn't make for good drama.
- [32:33]
Kara Swisher
Let's create a show another plane landed safely. Other words, that's not news.
- [32:38]
Scott Galloway
What I would encourage us and what I try and do is say, when people say, what do you think? I have no fucking idea. I know it rained a lot and a lot of good people have incurred a tragedy. Would a more thoughtful response to flood control and weather services investment have prevented this? We don't know yet. Is it clear that we have more catastrophic weather events that are more extreme and more frequent? Yes, but was this a function of that? We don't know.
- [33:07]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [33:08]
Scott Galloway
So the question is, well, let's lean on good people and scientists who are pursuing the truth. Let's slow our thinking down. And then let's make the requisite investments in infrastructure and personnel that are really fucking boring, such that we talk about this stuff less.
- [33:22]
Kara Swisher
I mean, you noted here this New York Times report that I just referred to you put this in your notes. The National Weather Service San Angelo office, which is responsible for some of the areas hit hardest by Friday's flooding, was missing a senior hydrologist, staff forecaster and meteorologist in charge to me. And a lot of it, you know, it was interesting because Kristi Noem was then Texas. People blamed the Trump administration. They were saying it was because of ancient systems in the past. And I was like, wasn't President Trump the president in the past? Like, again, she's so dumb. It's just constant stupidity from her. And it seems like that's. And of course, Trump pretended he couldn't hear it, right? What? I can't hear you. Which doesn't do well for me. Not thinking he's an old man. But I agree with you. I think this is. We don't know what happened. Although I will say two things that I thought were repulsive that happened. One is all this conspiracy theories about weather control from people like. Like, that has not gotten a lot of purchase. But there was enough of it that it was ridiculous that people are control, no more weather controlling. I'm like, well, yeah, we should stop driving cars, probably, like, and if you want to talk weather control, you know, I think the bigger things immediately saying, I think it is climate. I mean, it's so clear right now there's flooding in North Carolina. These weather situations have gotten worse and worse. There's just no question about that. More of them and very tragic kind of thing. One of the things that it seemed to me at the very basis was relying on a system of texting. Seems crazy to me, especially in a rural area. Right? Like, that's how you Warn people, especially if people aren't paying attention to their phones in the middle of the night. And they, I don't know, whenever you get one of these warnings here in dc, I get them, I ignore them. Them, right. They go, just ignore. You probably get a lot down in Florida, I would assume. And they make your phone go, wah, wah, wah. And I pretty much ignore them. If it was a siren, I would not ignore it, interestingly enough. So it seems like they probably should have sirens here, especially when there's so many kids along that. You know what I mean? Like, that's one of the things I think will resonate is that in this one camp, it looks like a Christian camp, a lot of very high level Texas officials sent their kids there. I think Laura Bush worked there as a counselor. It seems like one of these institutions in that area of the country and the director died trying to save these girls. I think there's nothing wrong with some of the human stories here, Scott, because I think it gets people going in that regard. And I think the Trump administration's gonna get dragged into this the way the Bush administration got dragged into Hurricane Katrina, if you remember. Seems incompetent and seems he might go there on Friday. He has to go there. He really does. And I know the President's getting the way, but from a symbolic point of view, he' got to go there. And he can't be throwing towels at them like paper towels at them. He's got to show concern as the President of the United States. The President should always be there for these kind of terrible incidents. So we'll see. But I think you're right about thinking fast and slow. But it's inevitable there'll be human interest stories here. Sadly.
- [36:26]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, those alerts. You get the strangest alerts. In Florida, I got an alert that two men had broken into a pharmacy and stolen all the Viagra and it said to be on the lookout for 200 hardened criminals.
- [36:38]
Kara Swisher
I couldn't. I can't believe you made that joke. Anyway, anyway, I don't ever say thoughts and prayers, but I hate that. Hearing about these kids, heartbreaking.
- [36:48]
Scott Galloway
I think that is such an excuse for a lack of action. I hate that. You know what, folks? Thoughts and prayers aren't going to bring those kids back.
- [36:56]
Kara Swisher
They are not.
- [36:57]
Scott Galloway
And they're not going to stop climate change and they're not going to. And they're not going to help our infrastructure put in place the right warning system.
- [37:05]
Kara Swisher
What are we going to do? This should give us all a minute. Definitely. And it's fine for people to cover it and everything else, but we really need to get to the heart of it, as Scott said, and put experts in charge that they really can prevent these tragedies from being worse than they are. And this one is particularly bad, I think. Okay, let's go on a quick break. We come back how the Big Beautiful bill is going to change the country as we know it.
- [37:33]
Scott Galloway
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Kara Swisher
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- [39:00]
Scott Galloway
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Kara Swisher
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Scott Galloway
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- [40:11]
Kara Swisher
Scott, we're back. While you were away, Donald Trump passed his big beautiful bill. It's now law. The President signed the bill on his self imposed deadline, the 4th of July, calling it, quote, the single most popular bill ever signed, despite most polls saying otherwise. A lot of people don't know what's in it, by the way. FYI, on top of that, the final bill extends to Trump's 2017 tax cuts which were supposed to go at the end of this year, slashes Medicaid significantly, boosts immigration enforcement by a lot and adds over $3 trillion to the deficit. Some of the big winners from this bill include wealthy Americans, corporations and defense contractors, also prison people, prison owners. Some of the losers, low income Americans, healthcare workers, clean energy companies drastically. And Elon Musk after The bill scrapped EV subsidies also for anybody working in the EV industry, which get a 7,500 DOL annual subsidy. That is going away, which is a very good time to buy an ev. Now, if you want to, by the way, before those go away, talk about what this bill means for the country. I mean, what do you see? You've talked about this a lot, but now that it's passed, what do you see is some of the stuff dropped out, including selling public lands and some other stuff, but some of the stuff absolutely stayed in there. So talk a little bit about your thoughts about where it's going.
- [41:28]
Scott Galloway
I've thought a lot about this bill. I think it cements the notion, an unfortunate motion or notion that that America has officially decided that it's comfortable with the bottom 90% of America being nutrition for the top 10%. That this isn't just weaponization by the government of rich people, it's Americans deciding that. I'm comfortable with the transfer of wealth from the future to the past, from the poor to the rich, from the young to the old, because I think maybe someday I'll be there. And also some of these images of how cruel and harsh it is get conflated with masculinity and leadership. Leadership. And I don't think you can just blame Republicans and Trump. I think America has decided in some ways that it's now the Hunger Games. And I think it represents something deeper and more mendacious and ugly about America right now because there really hasn't been a lot of pushback. I think most people acknowledge that this is going to be good for rich people and it's going to be bad for poor people. 14 million plus are going to lose their health care. And these are some of the most vulnerable people in the world. Disabled kids, disabled seniors. And then I'm going to get a tax cut, a big one. At the end of the day, that's what this is. It's taking $800 billion out of Medicaid and it's dramatically reducing taxation such that. And adding to the deficit. So it's an enormous tax on future generations. It's a huge erosion in the social safety net for poor people, such that the most productive, if you will, that's the nicest thing you could say. The most blessed, the most fortunate, the richest among us continue to aggregate more wealth. And I'm, you know, if you give me a minute here, I'm on vacation. And I think a lot about, you know, when I'm, When I have time to kind of slow down. When you're young, you think about, you credit your grit and your character for your success. You think about the pillars that your blessings are built on, and you have a tendency to go, well, it's my grit and my hard work and my talent. And then as you get older, you realize a lot of your success isn't your fault. And I literally could go through, and I will, the pillars of my prosperity. And they're all under attack in this bill. When I was in fourth grade, when I was nine, I didn't get free lunch, but I got assisted lunch. And the wonderful thing about assisted lunch in California was they didn't want kids to have stigma, so they used to send coupons to my house. And they were the same coupons the other kids used to. Yeah, right. Think about how thoughtful that is. And I've talked about this. When I was 17, my mom became pregnant. If we'd lived in a conservative area in this era, we wouldn't have been able to access family planning. There's no way I could have gone to college. When I got to college, I got Pell Grants. Now they're talking about doing away. A third of the kids that receive Pell Grants now will have a reduction or they'll be done away with. So I couldn't have graduated from college. In that, let's be clear, that illuminated or detonated an upward spiral of incredible prosperity and tens of millions of dollars in taxes paid by yours. Trul. Companies from the generosity of California taxpayers and the visions of the University of California, the regents. Look at the companies I started. They were all based on the Internet. What if we hadn't had the capital to invest in things like darpa because we had been making a trillion dollars a year in interest payments for our debt to prop up the rich. Will there be future Internet? My first programmer that built my first website, a red envelope. Jawad Muhammad, an immigrant from Pakistan, the chief merchant of red envelope company I started and took public. An immigrant from Vietnam, the woman who ran our CPG practice at L2, a Canadian immigrant. Immigrants literally built my companies. All of these things, literally all of these things are under attack and let me go. Very meta. I wouldn't be here if America hadn't pushed back on fascism. In the late 30s. My mother was a 4 year old Jew sleeping in bomb shelters in the London tube. And we didn't decide to commit, convert all our factories to producing tanks instead of washing machines and to have 400,000 homes have a gold star in the window. Because we were pushing back on anti Semitism, we were pushing back on fascism. And what is fascism? The demonization of immigrants, a refusal to condemn violence against your opponents and extreme nationalism. Does that sound familiar?
- [45:46]
Kara Swisher
Yep.
- [45:47]
Scott Galloway
So. So if we hadn't gagged on fascism in 39, much less everything I talked about previous to this, I might not be here.
- [45:56]
Kara Swisher
Nope, you wouldn't. You absolutely wouldn't.
- [45:58]
Scott Galloway
I feel as if everything, every reason I get to live the life I live and the prosperity, the taxes I paid the kids. It really does feel like everything, all the ladders for many of us who are successful, the American experience are being pulled up behind us. It's very upsetting.
- [46:20]
Kara Swisher
Well, the problem is a lot of people like you don't think that they think they did everything on their own, which is incredible. The fact that you think about it is incredibly thoughtful because, I mean, it's the truth for one, which is why it's correct. But many people in your group don't think that they think people are lazy. You want Medicaid, you gotta work that kind of thing when they, they get free. Like, I grew up pretty rich, Scott, and I remember a bunch of kids talking about a bunch of some of the lesser good kids that I went to school with, like, oh, they're lazy. I'm like, how the you know where you would be if you didn't have all this support? Like very. You're so dumb. You would be at the, you would sink to the bottom of this particular ocean. And I used to think my grandfather was an immigrant from Italy. His father was a stone cutter, came over from Italy and he built up a business without very much education. And I was allowed to do things, cause of his entrepreneurship and his father's entrepreneurship. And you know, it just is many, many people who are getting these breaks do not realize they are on third base and they feel like they've hit a home run and they treat hardworking people. I don't know why the dime is just dropping for Joe Rogan. Oh, they're going after people that work really hard. Construction sites, gardening, all these things that people come to try to work their way up the American system, which has been very good for a lot of people. And you're a perfect example of that. To me, honestly, if I had to pick the most egregious thing is all the money going to ice. And jailing people like that to me is terrifying. You talked about this like a couple billion dollars to help a Pell Grant versus $40 billion to jail people. There is no economic upside except for a small group of people in jailing. Hardworking Americans, even if they came here, figuring out a way to keep them here and working hard would be the better use of that money.
- [48:15]
Scott Galloway
At the end of the day, the president is the ultimate capital allocator. And the amount of money we are spending on harassing people at Home Depots and at churches and at schools, doesn't it tell you something that this is where we're finding these people? And instead of taking that, what will I think be now? 12 or 11 or 12 million dollars? Know you year you know who's taking your job? The woman wiping grandma's ass and picking your crops and making sure that the restaurant bill isn't $30, it's 22. That's not who's taking your job? AI is going to take your job. Do you know what we could do in terms of vocational training? Upskilling people to be more critical thinkers and more skilled and able to handle the new technologies and the new threats of future. We could be doing so much better with this money to ensure our wages stay high high, to ensure there are good jobs for people, to ensure that we have a safety net, we have great education, we have great infrastructure, for God's sakes. We could take that money, build high speed rail networks, we could build nuclear power plants to create an energy efficient or independent future that would create great jobs. And instead we're funding what is effectively a modern day Gestapo with WI fi. I mean this is just, you know.
- [49:23]
Kara Swisher
What I'd like the money to be like, why don't we take the money and give it to sirens along the flood course? Why not? Like that's something useful. All those people would have died all that incredible economic devastation prevention. It is. Your story is exactly correct. And I wish more people like you spoke like this in terms of. I don't understand why they don't. Something happens when you get to be a certain wealth that you think you did it all yourself. You hang out with those people more than I do. But I've always been perplexed by their inability to understand how they got to where they got. Maybe they grew up rich and didn't know or something like that. I don't know.
- [50:03]
Scott Galloway
Most of my friends are suitably freaked out. And one stat 6,500 people in Q1 of this year applied for UK passports from the US who are wealthy. And that's a record. And I think there's a lot of people who recognize that again, a lot of their successes and their father even going back to your parents or your grandfather who was an immigrant. Immigrant. How many immigrants, how many really talented, hungry people are going to think, you know what if I'm going to take a risk, am I going to take a risk to go to America and face those risks? But in addition, I have to face the risk of having my phone taken away and maybe being rounded up. I mean, right now it's like, who, who wants to go to America right now?
- [50:43]
Kara Swisher
And the thing is, we're the best place for them to do that. It's not like Europe is full of innovation and entrepreneur, you know what I mean? Like, maybe it was, maybe it will.
- [50:51]
Scott Galloway
I think there's a decent chance for the first time. I mean, my biggest investment in 2026 is this British aerospace company called Vertical. And in the last three months we have seen a fairly serious uptick in investors interested in finding out more about the company. Because quite frankly, for the first time they're no longer defaulting to just investing in American companies. That's going to impact, that's just going to make it much harder for American companies. We have taken for granted just how deep the capital pool is. I was a 27 year old out of business school with a shaved head, which meant in San Francis you could raise tens of millions of dollars for your startups. You can't do that in Poland, you can't even do that in Australia.
- [51:28]
Kara Swisher
No.
- [51:29]
Scott Galloway
And we've taken that for granted. And the reason why all of those people were willing to provide so much capital was because of things like rule of law and that we attracted the best and brightest from around the world.
- [51:39]
Kara Swisher
And we didn't spend all our money.
- [51:40]
Scott Galloway
On police, we funded universities to do incredible forward leaning Crazy investments that might result in gps and all of those things are under attack.
- [51:50]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, Trump is, you know, I'm thinking about his age all the time. I'm like, he's old. He doesn't give a fuck because he's not gonna be here for the future, you know, for the real future.
- [52:00]
Scott Galloway
Now do Congress and Senate, that's a big problem.
- [52:03]
Kara Swisher
I agree. I think we should keep people. People have accused us of being ageist. I don't care at this point.
- [52:07]
Scott Galloway
So is biology. Two thirds of Congress is gonna be dead in 25 years. Are they really that worried about climate change?
- [52:14]
Kara Swisher
No.
- [52:14]
Scott Galloway
Are they really freaked out about the deficit?
- [52:17]
Kara Swisher
Yep. Agree.
- [52:18]
Scott Galloway
I mean, it's like my dad says, my dad takes all these drugs now. And I'm like, you know, I once said to him, you know, you got to think about the long term effects. And he's like, dude, long term effects are not effects for me any longer.
- [52:28]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, that's a fair point. My grandmother, I tried to get her to eat broccoli when she was older.
- [52:32]
Scott Galloway
And like, what's the point? Have the ice cream, have pancakes.
- [52:36]
Kara Swisher
She literally ate donuts and drank black coffee. And I said, can't you have a little broccoli? She goes, is it going to help? I said, it is not. And she. She said, therefore, I shall not eat it. She hated broccoli her whole life. It would have been good earlier. Let me just move on very quickly. Trump still has more deal making supposedly to do. The 90 day pause on the Liberation Day tariffs is coming to an end. He was supposed to do 90 deals in 90 days have yet to materialize. Most of them are show pony deals. The White House will be sending letters to countries apparently detailing the new tariff rate, some as high as 70%. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant, the pissy one, shared a bit more on CNN over the weekend, saying if countries don't make a deal by August 1st, they'll boomerang back to their April level tariffs. Bessant insisted Aug. 1 is not a new deadline, even though it is. Scott, stop being. I'm curious what he wants now with Elon out of the way anyway. By the way, Scott, just because Elon's an asshole doesn't mean you're not. So what do you. What do you think's gonna happen here?
- [53:33]
Scott Galloway
I think it's already happened. I think the majority of the world has said, hold my beer. There's 150 nations and Vietnam has. The deal with Vietnam is real. That's one. I think there's another small and Most of these things aren't even deals, they're frameworks to talk about it. The whole world has basically stuck up the middle finger to us and is busy reestablishing or rerouting their supply chain around us. These things have not worked. They're going to look remarkably similar to the great tariff strategy of GI Raimondo and other people and other secretaries of commerce and trade who've actually done the work that we've had previously. All we will have done was massively incented South Korea and Japan to start talking to China, for Latin America to start talking to Europe, and for people no longer to trust doing business with the U.S. but this is all almost nobody has come to the table as far as I can tell.
- [54:25]
Kara Swisher
I agree. I mean this is just ridiculous. He's still taco. He's still taco. Trump always chickens out. It's just been a lot of. He's a lot of hand waving, this fella. He's ridiculous in this case. He's just caused a lot of chaos and actually helped our competitors constantly help them. Anyway, we'll see 90 days. You got a few more days trunk.
- [54:43]
Scott Galloway
There you go.
- [54:44]
Kara Swisher
You got good luck. Good luck with your 90. My favorite thing is Carl Quintanilla from CNBC is very sad. He's a great follow. And also on all the other social he's like day 67, no deals. He's very sassy. I I love them. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Support for the show comes from Mercury. It's the fintech that brings all the ways you use money into a single extraordinary product. Now you can quickly and easily send money, pay bills, create and send invoices, issue reimbursements to your team and more without having to toggle between a dozen apps and services. Visit mercury.com to apply in 10 minutes or less. Mercury Banking that does more Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group column NA and Evolve bank and Trust members FDIC.
- [55:47]
Scott Galloway
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- [56:14]
Kara Swisher
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Scott Galloway
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- [56:54]
Kara Swisher
Scott, I see that you've put many notes here in your winds and fails. I'm gonna let you go first.
- [56:58]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, I've had too much time on my hands. I've actually prepared. First off, the whole idea of a deal is not what the president is supposed to do, right? The president is supposed to hire really talented people and then create systemic laws and treaties that impact everyone individually. Up until this president, you weren't supposed to target your political or go after individual, promote or punish individuals or companies. That is the definition of an autocracy. And of course he goes after the president of UVA for because they had a disagreement over dei. And for a long time I have been saying the DEI apparatus at universities should be disassembled, that it had outlived its usefulness and was now eating its tail. Having said that, private universities or universities, public and private continue to show just remarkable roi, both on a societal, a cultural and an economic level. And of course the president targeted uva. And the president, being a good man, said it's not worth, it's not, you know, this is not worth the fight. This is not the beach I want to die on and resigned. And I just wanted to highlight what a gift UVA is now an important institution.
- [58:06]
Kara Swisher
It is just be clear, just be cleared up. It's the president of uva, not the President of the United States.
- [58:10]
Scott Galloway
Oh, I'm sorry, the president of UVA was gotten basically the president, President Trump targeted this guy because he didn't like his DEI efforts efforts. And the president of UVA has decided to kind of jump on his sword and step down because he's like, I don't want the university to feel the wrath of the president who is willing to target individual institutions because he has basically a beef against me. He did the honorable thing. A lot of people wanted him to stay and fight, but he said it's not worth it. I care more about the university than my personal reputation or ego. He did, in my opinion, kind of of the heroic thing here. But my win is essentially when I was right out of graduate school, I started Profit. And we immediately noticed that we had really good luck with these incredibly hardworking people who were also very nice and kind of easygoing. And what do they have in common? They went to uva. And so we started recruiting from Darden and UVA undergrad. And generally we found kids who went to UVA were essentially like the smartest kid in their public high school in the northeastern Virginia. Virginia. And this is an unbelievable institution. And one of the things I love about this institution, I think it set the tone for its success. The University of Virginia was founded by one of our, by almost any account, one of our better presidents, Thomas Jefferson. And what did Thomas Jefferson decide to have written on his tombstone? That he was the founder of the University of Virginia. He decided it was the first major academic institution that didn't have a chapel. He wanted it to be the pursuit, pursuit of enlightenment, of intellectual enlightenment, as opposed to an orthodoxy or a religion. It's a UNESCO World Heritage site with debt free graduation for low income students. Providing elite education that can serve as economic mobility, not just privilege. It has this really fantastic. People I used to work with used to reference it all the time. And that is their honor code and the legacy of their honor code. They have this student run honor system since 1842 that creates graduates known for integrity across professions, institutionalizing the character democracy requires. They have produced multiple Supreme Court justices, national leaders across party lines, and not only that, a lot of leaders across both parties. And then unbelievable excellence. Consistently rated as one of the three top public universities in the nation at a reasonable cost. And so. And UVA really does represent America at its best. Jefferson's belief that democracy depends on educated citizens, accessible excellence, honor and integrity and merit based opportunity rather than inherited privilege. Anyways, this. I just thought it was an opportunity. My win is the great University of Virginia. Uva. I think it's an incredible institution that offers.
- [60:56]
Kara Swisher
I didn't get in. Kara Swisher didn't get in.
- [60:58]
Scott Galloway
Three most beautiful campuses in the nation are. One, Pepperdine, because it overlooks the Coastal and Pacific. Duke, that's an incredible campus. And uva, that architecture and the law, I mean that is. It's extraordinary. Anyways, my win is this gift to America. The great institution that is uva.
- [61:16]
Kara Swisher
Wow. All right. Should I do my win or should I wait for your fail?
- [61:19]
Scott Galloway
You do your win.
- [61:20]
Kara Swisher
Well, I was just gonna say Old Guard 2 with Charlize Theron. I don't know what to say. I'm so juvie. The great Empanium heroes.
- [61:31]
Scott Galloway
The Wahoo.
- [61:32]
Kara Swisher
Can I just say, Charlize Theron embodies lady greatness along with Uma Thurman. And it's getting okay reviews. Fuck you people who don't like it. It's so oga. One was about this bunch of immortals and Charlize Theron was the first one total playing lesbian. I love Charlize Theron when she does the lesbian thing, which she's done before. So good. So good. The new one, she has a new really gay haircut. And it's so. The whole cast is fantastic. It's kick ass. Uma Thurman's great. It's obviously gonna be. There's gonna be a third Old Guard three because of the way they leave it. And I just loved it so much. And there's a whole lesbians who don't kiss in it that I know they should have kissed, but I don't care because it was so. It doesn't matter. It was so lesbian coded. So I love the whole thing. Lesbians with swords and spears and et cetera. I like the entire endeavor. And women do dominate this particular. It's on Netflix and I love it so very much. And I just do. It's done by Skydance. I don't always agree with the Ellisons, but thank you, David Ellison for this one. And you can go with your loss. I have another one I think you.
- [62:41]
Scott Galloway
Should do your fail.
- [62:43]
Kara Swisher
Oh, God.
- [62:43]
Scott Galloway
Two. This is too much. See Chance. Yeah, yeah.
- [62:46]
Kara Swisher
UVA and American greatness. And Jemmerson's democratic vision made real. Watch Old Guard 2 and be happy now. Now, let me just tell you quietly. Amanda's mad I watched it. Cause I forgot I watched Old Guard one with her. And I'm gonna watch it again, Amanda. I promise. I'm so sorry. I just watched it on the plane. It was so delightful. I will watch it a second time.
- [63:06]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, the whole you watch it without me thing has taken off. That usually happens about year five or six. I'm glad you graduated to that.
- [63:12]
Kara Swisher
Yes, I know. Can I just say, she just said, you're not investing in our relationship. She was copying you.
- [63:16]
Scott Galloway
I love that.
- [63:16]
Kara Swisher
And I was like, I don't need Scott said back at me because I watched the fantastic lesbian show. My win is my loss. My fail is I'm gonna read this right now, which is repulsive. Us measles cases reach a 33 year record high as outbreak spread. How can I put this delicately? Fuck you, RFK Jr. You best friend of measles. How dare you. This was Something we had completely. We had it eliminated in 2000. We eliminated. Can I tell you, I find you completely responsible for this. You're a murderer. You're a murderer of children. And people died very quickly in this flooding, but people are dying slowly. It really puts so many people out of. In danger. And you should get a measles booster if you need to. You should check and get one. It's a terrible disease for adults particularly. I got checked, and I pretty much am okay. But one of my vaccines was not current, and I got that. Please check. And it's very easy to go to a CVS or anywhere else or a Walgreens to get checked for that, especially if you're in a certain age group. I think in the 60s, there was some problem with one of the. It didn't last, essentially. It wasn't a problem with the vaccine itself. It was the efficacy of it. So, Robert Kennedy Jr. This measles outbreak is on you. And what you have done is reprehensible and. And heinous. And I hope someday karma will reach you in the same way these poor people have, even if they didn't take vaccines. Not a smart move by parents, but in this case, just awful. Fail, fail, fail. Every fail in the book. Go ahead, Scott.
- [64:57]
Scott Galloway
Agreed. Well, you referenced my fail. My fail is the recent expansion of ICE funding, which is less about border enforcement and more about building an ideological enforcement army. And people always get upset when I compare America to Germany in the 30 or to Trump to Hitler. And you don't have to be Hitler to take a page out of his playbook. And this is absolutely out of the playbook. It's a surveillance state, light on law. The Gestapo is powerful, not because of its size. And I am equating ICE to the Gestapo. Let's not dance around. I am comparing the two organizations.
- [65:34]
Kara Swisher
Agreed.
- [65:35]
Scott Galloway
ICE has no warrants, no oversight. ICE is increasingly mirroring the Gestapo, expanding digital surveillance, facial recognition, license plate tracking, all with minimal judicial review. It's a civil agency essentially behaving as an intelligence unit. It's the militarization of bureaucracy. ICE was supposed to be about paperwork, visa overstays, customs violations, and today they've got drones, tactical teams, armored vehicles. We've essentially militarized a civil agency not to fight terrorists, but to raid meat packing plants and detain families. And it's not national security. It's pageantry and fear. And this whole notion that Gestapo and the SS were famous for turning identity into a crime, and that is they targeted identity, not behavior. ICE overwhelmingly targets Immigrants from specific racial and religious groups backed by rhetoric that frames themselves as animals or invaders. This is about signaling who belongs and who doesn't. Similar to what they were doing to Jews and other special interest group in Germany in the 30s. That's not law enforcement, it's fascism. ICE is becoming increasingly unaccountable and untouchable. Similar to the Gestapo, ICE operates in legal gray zones. No consistent court oversight, limited transparency. Whistleblowers report neglect, abuse, even forced sterilizations. And the agency keeps getting frustrated. Funded no matter the headlines. Fear is policy. This is total intimidation as government. The most chilling parallel is fear between ICE and the Gestapo. The Gestapo made you afraid to speak. ICE makes people afraid to go to court, school, even church. And that's the whole point. Fear keeps people quiet.
- [67:18]
Kara Swisher
Yep. Alligator Alcatraz. What's wrong with them? That one is like so fucked up.
- [67:24]
Scott Galloway
That's not incarceration or civics. That's fear. And it's also a step towards authoritarianism. And even just on the logistical level, the size of the force, ICE in 2025. ICE in 2025 will be 21,000 employees. That's approximately 7,000 enforcement and removal operations officers. The Gestapo at its peak in 1944 was 32,000 for an entire continent under Nazi occupation. And we're now funding ICE at five times what Nazi Germany spent on its secret police. Adjusted for $24, we're going to spend about 11 billion. Estimates are that the GEST required 2 billion in funding. So we're doing so with less resistance and more bureaucracy. ICE is already operating with Gestapo level scale in terms of headcount relative to its jurisdiction. And it's not fighting World War II, it's deporting line cooks and Uber drivers.
- [68:15]
Kara Swisher
Also their outfits suck. They have masks. Also the masks.
- [68:21]
Scott Galloway
They're wearing masks.
- [68:22]
Kara Swisher
If they really believe in what they're doing. The Nazis didn't have masks. They wore their outfits, but not.
- [68:27]
Scott Galloway
Yeah, they had their brown shirts. What's worse, a brown shirt or a brown shirt or a mask?
- [68:31]
Kara Swisher
Yeah, it's like has a Star wars resonance, don't you think? Like a little. Remember on Star wars, the Stormtroopers, they had masks.
- [68:37]
Scott Galloway
I think it has a Nazi reference.
- [68:40]
Kara Swisher
No, I get that, but they were based on the Nazis. But if you recall the masks on. On in that metaphor, in a lot of ways. Go ahead.
- [68:48]
Scott Galloway
So fascism doesn't start with death camps. You don't just wake up to Auschwitz. It starts with bureaucracy, badges and silence. And if we don't challenge, challenge these tools now, they'll be used on all of us later. So this is my loss is what is becoming an American Gestapo with mass and with bureaucratic language and five times the funding and has a number of striking resemblances. Essentially, Trump now has his own private army under his control and it's there for intimidation, it's there for fear mixed with pageantry. And again, and I keep coming back to this, folks, if you believe that we cannot be that nation again, you don't know history. Germany was the most enlightened society in history. It was pro immigrant, it was pro gay. It had a thriving economy and then it had economic shocks. Too many young men without prospects, a strong man and a level basically a media that decided to demonize immigrants and it militarized and turned. So anyways, my fail is the increasing militarization of what is supposed to be a civic agency and that is ICE, which has remarkable echoes of the Gestapo in late 30s and early 40s Germany. God, I'm so serious today.
- [70:07]
Kara Swisher
I know you are. I may add that tech companies are working hand in glove with these things. They're at the trough of this particular trough and they will be in general because they do not care, as I've said over and over again, and they will be part of this. And so surveillance, we should all be scared of a surveillance economy. And Scott is 100% correct and Bogard too. Yes, but this is much more important anyway, but you should watch it anyway because we're all going to need.
- [70:32]
Scott Galloway
I'm more interested. I'm more interested in lesbian Charlie Cerrone.
- [70:35]
Kara Swisher
The lesbians are going to save you. The lesbians are going to have to save you with our spears and kick assness. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8555, and I just want to say, Scott, I like serious Scott just as much as I like penis joke Scott. Anyway, elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, on the latest episode of on with Kara Swisher, I spoke with journalists Isaac Arnsdorf, Josh Dawsey and Tyler Pager about their new book on the 2024 election. It's actually quite a really interesting book. Let's listen to a clip of Tyler talking about how Kamala Harris didn't have enough distance from Joe Biden. The way that they framed her as a vice president was in the room for all the big decisions. The last person to to leave and intimately involved in everything now, that wasn't true, but that was the narrative that they were out there saying. And so it then makes it harder.
- [71:28]
Scott Galloway
To be like, actually, I disagreed with.
- [71:29]
Kara Swisher
X, Y and Z policy because then she opens herself up to, okay, so why did you go along with it?
- [71:34]
Scott Galloway
Why didn't you speak up?
- [71:35]
Kara Swisher
Can we get people in the room saying she actually did disagree? That's a really good point. We'll see if she, she may be running for governor, so we'll see if she comes back and what happens.
- [71:44]
Scott Galloway
Do you think that's a good idea? I'm curious what you think of that.
- [71:46]
Kara Swisher
I don't know. I think she should wait around and become a Supreme Court justice.
- [71:49]
Scott Galloway
I agree with that.
- [71:50]
Kara Swisher
I think they should put her up for Supreme Court court justice. I don't know. She could really drive Trump crazy. At her best. She really drives Trump crazy. And so in that regard, being governor of California gives you a nice place to do that. I think Newsom has taken advantage of it. So in that regard, yes, I think if Kamala at her best could be very good as a foil. But if the Democrats take over, by the way, the first thing the Democrats should do if they get control of Congress is shut down that ICE funding, rather significantly, turn it over. Anyway, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.
- [72:29]
Scott Galloway
Today's show was produced by Lara Naim and Zoe Marcus Taylor Griffin, Kevin Oliver and Corinne Roth. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Ms. Siervera and Dan Shalon and Shak Kuruas. Vox me as the executive producer of podcast, make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine nymag. Com Pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week. It's good to see you again.