The U.S. Takes Charge of Venezuela... Now What?

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary

Episode: The U.S. Takes Charge of Venezuela... Now What?
Date: January 6, 2026
Host: Kara Swisher
Guest Panel: Don Lemon, Stephanie Ruhl, Brooke Hammerling

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode kicks off 2026 with Kara Swisher, joined (in Scott Galloway’s absence) by Don Lemon (Don Lemon Show), Stephanie Ruhl (MSNBC’s 11th Hour), and Brooke Hammerling (Pop Culture Mondays). They dissect the dramatic U.S. intervention in Venezuela after the arrest of President Nicolas Maduro, the business motives and economic fallout, the cultural reverberations—plus a lighter second half on TV trends, viral culture, and bold predictions for 2026 in politics, business, and entertainment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. US Takeover of Venezuela: Political, Business, and Cultural Fallout

[06:41 – 19:28]

Political Chaos & Trump’s Bold Moves

• Trump claims the U.S. is “in charge” of Venezuela after Maduro’s capture.
• He threatens Venezuela’s acting leader and riffs on the “Don Row Doctrine”—a play on the Monroe Doctrine—with expanding saber-rattling at Colombia, Cuba, and even talking about Greenland.
• Don Lemon frames this as classic Trump chaos:
  • Quote: “I think Donald Trump has been surprised by how much he's been able to get away with. And every time he gets away with something, it emboldens him to do something else, to do something that's even worse.” (Don Lemon, 08:01)
• Trump’s disregard for due process: detaining people, arresting sovereign leaders with little Congressional input.
• Obama’s warnings about Trump’s second term have all “really come true.”

Business Angle: It’s About Oil, Not ‘The People’

• Stephanie Ruhl spotlights oil as the real story:
  • Trump spoke to oil execs before and after the move, but not Congress.
  • American oil companies—burned by past Venezuelan deals—stand to benefit, but taxpayers foot the bill for years before seeing returns.
  • Quote: “Congress was not notified, but businesses were. That is not how a democracy runs. That is how autocracies run.” (Stephanie Ruhl, 10:10)
• Wall Street sees immediate opportunities (banks went “long Venezuela” anticipating the move), but warns of international backlash—especially as norms and laws are broken.
• Ruhl questions if the U.S. can handle the long-term costs, and how these sudden actions can provoke global copycats (e.g., China eyeing Taiwan).

Cultural Reaction: TikTok Virality & The ‘Maduro Fashion Moment’

• Media and TikTok have latched onto viral memes of Maduro’s Nike sweatsuit and “fashion influencer” status as he’s flown to arraignment.
• Brooke Hammerling:
  • Quote: “Maduro is now a fashion influencer. That picture of him...the viral memes have gone crazy.” (Brooke Hammerling, 13:46)
• The panel agrees: as absurd as this is, memes can sometimes distract from the gravity of regime change and international lawbreaking.
• Don Lemon and Brooke debate how MAGA and TikTok trends entwine, with TikTok’s algorithm now amplifying MAGA content after U.S. business takeovers.
• Congress's Response: Don Lemon predicts noise, little action. Stephanie Ruhl notes Venezuela won’t be the daily concern for average Americans, who face health care and affordability crises.

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2. Breakout TV: Heated Rivalry – Changing Media & Culture

[21:03 – 34:30]

Low Budget, High Impact: The Heated Rivalry Phenomenon

• Heated Rivalry, a low-budget Canadian “gay hockey drama,” has unexpectedly seized the North American zeitgeist.
• Brooke Hammerling describes its viral journey (memes, fashion, and sports podcasts) and its resonance beyond the LGBTQ+ community, particularly among straight women.
• Don Lemon pushes back on the idea that the series is uniquely “sex-heavy”—pointing out that it’s cultural discomfort with seeing gay intimacy on screen.
• Stephanie Ruhl:
  • Quote: “Straight women are talking about this show. Straight women love this show.” (Stephanie Ruhl, 22:53)
• The panel contrasts Heated Rivalry’s authentic, underdog production with “polished,” over-marketed shows that quickly fade after cash-in on their popularity.
• Stephanie: “The beauty of this show is the same stroke of beauty of independent media...now if you make something magical, it can find legs, it can find a home.” (25:48)

Broader Cultural Impact

• Don Lemon predicts Heated Rivalry could have the same culture-shifting impact that “Will & Grace” once had for gay visibility.
• There’s some anxiety that success and swelling budgets could make the show more corporate and lose its magic.

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3. 2026: Big Stories, Bold Predictions

[34:41 – 49:24]

Politics: Fracturing of MAGA

• Don Lemon expects infighting (“beefing” between personalities like Megyn Kelly and Candace Owens) to spell the beginning of the end for MAGA media.
• Stephanie Ruhl picks the fragile K-shaped economy (the rich richer, the poor poorer) as the big story, all “in the palm of Trump’s hands.”
  • “Where we're headed is where I'm laser beam focused.” (36:17)
  • She debates whether Trump’s deregulatory/strongman moves mean real economic growth or an “Astroturf” mirage.
• Don’s counterpoint: only a true economic crash will force a reckoning with Trump’s policies.

AI and Tech’s Power Consolidation

• Stephanie: AI’s transformative moment is here. Many companies will bust like the dot-com bubble, but the “masters of the universe” (top tech giants) will become more powerful and unregulated than any group in modern history.
• Kara: The outsized winners—tech, finance—are “not getting hurt by mass deportations…they're being helped by AI.” (39:07)

Culture: Marketing, Music, and Generational Shifts

• Brooke highlights a new playbook for film marketing (e.g. Marty Supreme)—less reliant on traditional (press tours, TV ads), more on TikTok and viral guerrilla tactics.
• Traditional awards shows matter less as appointment TV—what matters are breakout viral moments and fashion.
• Music, especially tied to social video (YouTube, TikTok), is rising as the next culture wave, especially among young girls (Alpha, not Gen Z).
• Stephanie and Don: public is “exhausted” by political meanness and may crave “love and kindness” (66:26).

Media Trends

• Panelists note the rise of independent creators (on TikTok, YouTube) and the growing importance of “little guy” productions having breakout, grassroots success.
• Debate over whether going viral is good for democracy or is feeding underlying polarization.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (w/ Timestamps)

• “How can a tyrant arrest or detain another tyrant? It doesn’t make sense.”
  (Don Lemon, 09:18)

• “Congress was not notified, but businesses were. That is not how a democracy runs. That is how autocracies run.”
  (Stephanie Ruhl, 10:10)

• “Maduro is now a fashion influencer. That picture of him...the viral memes have gone crazy.”
  (Brooke Hammerling, 13:46)

• “The genius of the photographer telling a story...she should know exactly what was ahead.”
  (Brooke Hammerling, 44:36)

• “The winners are those who are connected, those with power are so rich, so isolated.”
  (Stephanie Ruhl, 40:16)

• “I think Heated Rivalry is going to change society like Will and Grace did.”
  (Don Lemon, 28:03)

• “People want it a little messy and authentic.”
  (Don Lemon, 27:41)

• “The Oscars are moving to YouTube in a couple years. That’s a big, big deal.”
  (Brooke Hammerling, 55:37)

• “Love and kindness will reign supreme. People are so exhausted.”
  (Stephanie Ruhl, 65:58)

---

Additional Segments & Insights

Show Recommendations & Viewing Trends

• Holiday watching habits revealed a migration away from theaters to home streaming due to comfort, weather, and movie quality.
  (45:35–46:43)

2026 Cultural Trends

• YouTube is becoming television for kids, especially girls aged 7–14.
• Rise of “music-driven” content—live music, soundtracking, and social-based performances.

Predictions – AI, Politics, Culture

• AI will create a new generation of all-powerful tech corporations, with minimal regulatory oversight.
• Trump’s health and the fading of MAGA as a media force may reshape the political landscape (Don expects a progressive Democratic surge).
• Brooke expects Heated Rivalry and similar content to embolden more people to go public about sex, identity, and taboos, driving the next wave of TV/film.
• Award shows will continue, but as social “clip” factories—fashion, sassy speeches, and meme moments matter more than who wins.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Description | Start | | --- | --- | --- | | Venezuela/Trump Doctrine | Deep dive into US-Venezuela chaos | 06:41 | | Business Implications (Oil) | Economic motivations & risks of intervention | 10:10 | | Congress, MAGA, TikTok | Meme culture, shifting alliances, algorithmic politics | 13:36 | | Heated Rivalry (TV) & Viral Media | TV trends, production budgets, cultural impact | 21:03 | | Big Stories of 2026 | Predictions for politics, business, tech | 34:41 | | The Oscars & Awards Shows | Relevance of awards in the digital era | 55:32 | | AI Bubble & Tech Leadership | AI’s impact versus hype, consolidation of power | 47:31 | | Elon Musk’s Arc | Musk’s phase: from meme king to quieter power broker | 66:48 |

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Conclusion

This packed Pivot episode blends sharp political analysis, deep dives into business motivations, and a pulse-check on viral media and pop culture. Taking U.S. interventionism, MAGA’s possible unraveling, and the next phase of tech/AI as focal points, Swisher and her guest panel bring lively, unsparing discussion—with plenty of humor and memorable quotes. From Venezuela’s regime drama to the streaming TV revolution, the panel frames 2026 as a year when authenticity, viral moments, and power—whether economic, technological, or cultural—will keep rearranging the hierarchy of who wins and who’s left behind.

Transcript

[Brooke Hammerling]

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[Don Lemon]

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[Stephanie Ruhl]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Brooke Hammerling]

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[Stephanie Ruhl]

Try Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use on Monday.com.

[Kara Swisher]

If you get mad every time you pick up your phone and start scrolling, it's not just you.

[Don Lemon]

Rage bait is kind of the currency or the power that's behind a lot of the content we might see this.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Week on Explain it to Me from Vox why the Internet is pissing you off on purpose. New episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

What's a puck bunny? Is that like a lacrosse titute?

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher and welcome to 2026. Scott is still away at undisclosed location. I can't go into it, but there's so much going on that I've assembled a super group of smart folks to help me cover it all. We've got Don Lemon from the Don Lemon Show, Stephanie Ruhl from msnows the 11th hour, and Brooke Hammerling, communication specialist, podcaster and culture guru of Tyne the Pop Culture Monday's newsletter. I want to talk about 2026 going forward, so I put this team together that could talk about anything. Welcome, everybody. Thank you. Hello.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

We're also friends.

[Brooke Hammerling]

We're all friends. Well, actually, Don and I don't know each other, but.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Don, you don't.

[Brooke Hammerling]

No, but we're friends.

[Don Lemon]

We're friends.

[Brooke Hammerling]

We're friends now.

[Don Lemon]

We're friends through other people.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Don't worry, Don. We've all the three of us have talked about you behind your back.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Absolutely. Constantly. Constant.

[Don Lemon]

Scott is going to say you needed three people to replace him. Carrie, you know his egos.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I don't think I do. And we're not going to say what Scott is up to, but why don't you read or why don't you listeners write in what you think Scott is up to right now. Okay.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, boy. Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

And then we'll read them when he returns. Anyway, he should be back soon. He's been traveling and doing all kinds of fun things. So how was your holidays, everybody? Each of You, Brooke, you and I learned mahjong.

[Brooke Hammerling]

We learned mahjong.

[Kara Swisher]

We learned mahjong.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Okay, who insisted that you learn mahjong.

[Kara Swisher]

Over breaking Stephanie rule?

[Brooke Hammerling]

Stephanie rule.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I'm gonna just tell you why I love mah. I play American Mah Jongg. And the reason I love Mah Jongg is because it just. You are presented with chaos and your job is to create order. I love. It's a perfect activity for antisocial social people because you're in an environment with others. But there's not too much chit chat and there's no total ding. You don't have to be a smarty pants. But there's no total ding Dongs.

[Don Lemon]

Wait, is this retro? I feel like I'm in a 1970s sitcom because all you used to hear, I'm going to play mahjong. Marty.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

It's just like John, 100%. Let me be clear. Mahjong, canasta, and pickleball. I am leaning into my golden girl era in a big way and loving it.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Mah jong is indoor pickleball. That's what they're calling pickleball.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what they're calling.

[Don Lemon]

It's very spades. I play spades.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Oh, I like spades. I like spades.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Spades is cool.

[Kara Swisher]

So, John, how was your holidays? You were drunk on New Year's. I appeared and so did. Stephanie was on your show.

[Don Lemon]

I was tipsy. I mean, I'll give you. I mean, it's a little bit.

[Kara Swisher]

It wasn't Andy Cohen drunk, but you were enjoying yourself.

[Don Lemon]

Oh, yeah, I've heard. Just. It was just a couple of minutes ago about Andy Cohen. I didn't get to watch. Cause I was doing my own thing, but I wasn't. You know, it's a little bit of an act like Dean Martin, you know, I'm carrying. I don't have a glass with me. I'm carrying the glass kind of. But you know, and I'm just into it. But I had a great time. I worked on.

[Kara Swisher]

Did that work out, doing it on YouTube. Because you've done it on the net. You did it on cnn, right?

[Don Lemon]

Thank you for asking me.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

He was the original, like, let's be clear, any TV network that's now making it this, like, party celebration. Don is the original OG baby.

[Don Lemon]

The OG og I started the drinking and shots and champagne toasts and just having a good time and people getting a little bit edgy. I mean, Kathy, Kath Griffin actually started the edgy talk. She's not a drinker. Right. And Then I would just sort of rip off of Kathy. But, yeah, I think it was very successful for me as an independent media person. This was a test for me. I said I was going to do it with no intention, just to see if it could work. And I thought it was great. It was beautiful. It was a hot mess, a hot, chaotic mess that I loved, and people loved it. I got stopped so much in New Orleans and in the airport by people saying I loved it and the mic upside down. And, you know, I was. You know, they loved it.

[Kara Swisher]

You are Mr. New Media now.

[Don Lemon]

Of course. You're like, is that okay? I mean, is it okay to.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Nope.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I think it's great.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's the way you are. I think it's the way you are. So, Stephanie, where were you in Florida with the old people.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I was in Florida with old people, young people, playing padel and pickle and tennis and joining me on New Year's Eve, joining Donna on New Year's eve, doing a 5k with my family. It was great. I happened to love that week between Christmas and New Year's of having no idea what day it is, what time it is, where you are, and truly just having it that reset time.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, we all had flu A in the Swisher. Everybody had flu A from one to the next.

[Don Lemon]

But can I say something about you, Kara?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yes.

[Don Lemon]

Kara's such a great mom. She raised such great kids. When I texted her, I said, hey, how are you? What's going on? Merry Christmas, whatever. And she said, I haven't responded to you because I'm in bed with the flu. But her son made her. Didn't he make homemade soup for you?

[Brooke Hammerling]

He did.

[Kara Swisher]

And he did. He did. He made amazing Louie. It's the best.

[Brooke Hammerling]

What a hero.

[Kara Swisher]

He's a hero.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I'll tell you, on New Year's Eve, where I was, they drop a ball at 8pm and then they do it again at midnight. And I was there for 8. 8pm I was there for 8. And then I want to move to Florida. So good. So good. But then at 11:45, I'm laying on my couch watching Landman with my husband, or he's watching sports on another tv. And my kids called and they were on the beach and the ball was dropping again, and they were like, are you really not here? And I quickly put my clothes on and we ran to the beach. And I thought, how many more years are my kids to be saying, the ball's gonna drop in 10 minutes, get here? And that for me, was just awesome.

[Kara Swisher]

Fantastic. All right, I'm gonna move you all along. This is lovely. We all had lovely holidays. We're glad to be back, though. Cause a lot is happening. The news, of course, didn't stop each. Everyone's gonna sort of focus on Stephanie with business, Don politics, Brooke with culture. But anybody could weigh in on anything at all. So any thoughts would be great. So President Trump says the US Is in. Is, quote, in charge of Venezuela following the capture of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife over the weekend, as two are set to be arraigned in a Manhattan federal court on drug trafficking, weapons charges. Trump is also putting pressure on Venezuela's acting leader, warning if she doesn't do what's right, she's gonna pay a very big price. I don't know what that means. He's not backing Venezuela's opposition leader, reportedly because he's annoyed she won the Nobel Prize over him and then didn't give it to him. Trump is now threatening Colombia, Colombia and saying Cuba looks like it's, quote, ready to fall and talking about taking Greenland again. I don't know what's in his Wheaties. It seems to be part of his Don Row Doctrine, as he' coined it after the Monroe Doctrine. For those who know history, it sounds just as idiotic as it seems. Don, let's start with you. There's a lot to get to it, but let's start with the big picture. What is happening over there at the White House and what do you make of all this? Obviously, there's Epstein issues, economy issues, healthcare issues that he may be trying to avoid. But thoughts?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I think the obvious is that it's chaos. I mean, it's chaotic for the country, it's bad for the country. I think that I believe, and I think, Kara, maybe you. You have said this as well, and I agree with you. If you did say it, is that I. I think that Donald Trump has been surprised by how much he's been able to get away with. And every time he gets away with something, it emboldens him to do something else, to do something that's even worse. I was listening to a podcast over the holidays and it had quotes from Barack Obama in there. And everything he said about what was going to happen in the second Donald Trump administration really came true. And he said, and I'm paraphras here, he said, we've seen this movie before and we know the sequel is always worse. And so the more Donald Trump gets away with if he is allowed to pardon people, and there's not enough uproar about it and nothing happens. And he's going to pick. He's going to arrest people without due process on the streets or detain them, even if they're American citizens, or he's going to invade sovereign countries. Now, I think everyone on this panel and everyone can agree that something needed to be done about Maduro. He's a bad person, but it's just the way that he did it. And look, how can a tyrant arrest or detain another tyrant? It doesn't make sense.

[Kara Swisher]

Rather easily, as it turns out, rather easily.

[Don Lemon]

And just real quickly, what he's doing, though, I believe is setting a precedent, because from what he said is that Maduro was this and that he's a tyrant and he was a criminal and he did all these things. He tried to overturn an election or he did. He influenced an election, which is the very same things that Donald Trump tried to do. And he's also a criminal, which Gavin.

[Kara Swisher]

Newsom pointed out online.

[Don Lemon]

So why does Donald Trump get to get away with it and Maduro doesn't? It doesn't make sense.

[Kara Swisher]

So, Stephanie, make it make sense. Make it make sense. Yeah, make it make sense. Trump wants US Oil companies, they've talked about that in Venezuela, to rebuild the industry. And that happened In, I think, 98 as of this recording. Oil stocks are surging and the price of oil is holding steady. Talk a little bit about the business implications because most people feel like it's about oil, but I think it's about a whole lot more than just that, obviously.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Well, what it's not about is drugs. Right. Donald Trump over a dozen times this weekend said oil. We heard Marco Rubio say, this is about freeing oil for the people. What people? And to me, one of the biggest tells was on Air Force One when Donald Trump was asked, did you speak to American oil businesses before? And he said, I spoke to them before and I spoke to them after. Okay. Congress was not notified, but businesses were. That's how autocracies run. That is not how a democracy runs. And it's important to remember that American oil companies entered into risky deals to develop oil, Venezuelan oil, years and years ago. Those deals were canceled by the Venezuelan government, by Chavez. Correct. Before Maduro. What's happening now? We are now making an aggressive move that are going to. We're now going to spend an enormous amount of money and human capital sending American troops down there for US Oil businesses, who, by the way, it's unclear if they actually asked the president for this or not, because, yes, they're all going to shuffle down there and figure out how we going to make a whole lot of money out of this. But remember, it's not like Donald Trump saying today, we now control Venezuela. They're not gonna turn on the spigots and money's now gonna pour into this country. This will now cost our government billions of dollars, right. To now go down there to secure it. And now these companies are going to decide are they gonna spend hundreds of billions of dollars or at least $100 billion in the next decade. Cause that's how long it's gonna take to then get this oil business opportunity to come to fruition. My question is, who are the American people? We know in the last 10 months all that Donald Trump has done to please the tech community or all that he's trying to do to please Wall Street. And I think this is a quick, important reminder when they say Wall street loves this. I spoke to a bank CEO yesterday that said we were positioned for this. We went long Venezuela, we went long Pedavasa, which is the state owned oil and gas company, a week ago. And they were positioned because the markets go, investors can sell everything tomorrow, right? Something, there's a, there's a conflict. They can buy today, they can sell tomorrow. They're out. What hurts government and the American people? We can't make giant long term, you know, we have to make giant long term decisions as a government. We don't operate like day traders. And so when Wall street says, this works for me today, it works for them today. Until China tomorrow says, oh, hold on, are you ready for what we're gonna do with Taiwan? If this is Trump's strongman move, giddy up, look what we could do here. And so that's where Wall street and I'll stop talking now. That's where Wall street is sort of of two minds. On one hand, they're like, money's coming in. This is an opportunity, great, we're gonna unleash this. But on the other, now that there's no rules in the jungle right now that we're in, we're breaking international law and world norms. What could happen around the world. And that's what has.

[Kara Swisher]

The other thing is for now, for now, because he's got a short amount of time here, it's only a couple of months and then they're stuck. Brooke, she was just saying on social, like all the things that are going on, MAGA really reacted in very different ways. Obviously Marjorie Taylor Greene was against it, but a lot.

[Brooke Hammerling]

America first, America first.

[Kara Swisher]

But Some of them weren't. They were. They were. There was also a lot of. There was a ton of stuff going viral on TikTok. Such as Madero's outfit.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Well, yeah, I mean, let's be clear. The. Because. Because the kids are driving the culture, the cultural conversation. Maduro is now a fashion influencer. It's unbelievable. That picture of him on the airplane in the. It turns out to be a Nike suit. It's a Nike tech suit. And he had what people were saying where it was like an eye patch, but it was clearly goggles to cover his eyes. But there are so many memes about his fashion. The viral memes have gone crazy. They have him as a fashion. I mean, your friend Baratunde posted a picture of himself in the sweatsuit saying, like, I already own this.

[Kara Swisher]

So everything becomes comedy.

[Brooke Hammerling]

It's become comedy.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

It's kind of serious, and it couldn't be less funny. The core of all of this, could. We can't. While we're criticizing what the president did or the way he did it. Maduro is a horrible, awful, awful man, an oppressive leader. And so Venezuelans. And Venezuelans, Americans are thrilled to see this man out of power. But, Kara, you're asking the most important question with now what. But the absurdity of him now being a fashion icon is so absurd. Typical in every way.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, but that shows you where our culture is going. And I believe it shows you what the Just the grossness that the MAGA folks have just injected into society in the culture. And it's also social media as well.

[Brooke Hammerling]

It's social media. I mean, for me, it's not as much MAGA as it is the kids that are turning, you know, they've created like a DJ set with him, and he. He's now become this sort of, you know, Che Guevara kind of person that the kids are like, you know, he's somebody to now look up to.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Don, I think it's way more TikTok Nation than it is maga. And this is gonna be so challenging for America. First maga. Like, I'm thinking about my mother, Louise Rule, who always argues like, I'm sorry, Stephanie, we can't be thinking about foreign policy. There's kids in West Virginia who can't even go to a. People who live in West Virginia aren't thinking, certainly. Or around the. You know, that original MAGA base who says, I'm a forgotten American is not being remembered when it comes to what we're doing.

[Don Lemon]

Well, MAGA is morphing right now. Don't forget that MAGA, that TikTok is becoming MAGA, remember who's going to take over the algorithm of TikTok. That's going to be the Ellisons. They are MAGA. If you are on TikTok. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

They're going to have, well, Oracle will own 15%, let me be clear.

[Don Lemon]

But let me say, if you are on TikTok, if you are, you've noticed that your algorithm has changed. And if you are, if there's more pro maga stuff that gets elevated than stuff that is anti maga or that just tells the truth about Donald Trump. So TikTok, I believe from my experience with TikTok, that it is MAGA.

[Kara Swisher]

It is MAGA.

[Don Lemon]

It's one of those.

[Kara Swisher]

So, last question for you, Don, and maybe Stefan, you can add to it, is what does Congress do? They come back this week, right? At some point, what happens here? What do they do? Because they've been rather quiet and of course, Rubio was all over the, all over the tv, all over the place, talking about, you know, justifications which are different than Donald Trump's, just. But they were talking it up, that's for sure. So what happens next?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I think Congress will make a lot of noise and then do nothing, as they always do, sadly. I mean, they need to do more. They could start some sort of procedure. They can just do hearings. They can demand something. Actually, you know, Chuck Schumer, you know, actually said the F bomb, but he should have been, he should have had that energy a long time ago. They should have had years ago, before Roe was overturned, you know what I mean? Before Donald Trump got elected the second time, they should have had the balls, as you said, to do something.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

And they're like, well, maybe balls are the problem, because if women were in charge, we know how to multitask. And when you think about, we know how to multitask. And while Venezuela is hugely important, it's gonna occupy Congress. It's not occupying the daily lives of the American people. And the American people are about to wrestle with soaring healthcare costs, affordability problems, and we've got, I'm certainly not gonna say a labor crisis by any means, but we've got a tenuous labor situation happening in this country right now. So lawmakers are gonna go back, they've gotta deal with Venezuela, the amount of effort and time and money we're gonna spend there, and then the issues facing American people's daily lives, which are the reason Donald Trump's poll numbers were getting lower and lower in the months leading into year's end.

[Kara Swisher]

And step. Finally, Brooke, what's the next viral thing besides this ridiculous Maduro outfit thing?

[Brooke Hammerling]

I think we're gonna see more of the ridiculousness. I think we're gonna see, like, the. Right now we're seeing the fact that he's in the prison that P. Diddy was in and Luigi.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But then here's the question, Cara. Two weeks from now, like, truly two weeks from now in Davos, when every world leader and business leader all gets together and talks about how we're gonna collaborate and make the world better and stronger together, what's going to be the theme this year? Strongman whodunnit?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is it? You're going.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I am not.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I can't wait to see what Jeff Bezos wears, because that's what we all care about.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, moving on.

[Brooke Hammerling]

And the Louis Vuitton?

[Don Lemon]

I honestly think the people who attend Davos are sort of in on it. You know, they want the money. So, yeah, I don't think there's going to be a theme, you know.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Okay, that's a great point because. But, but, but. Okay, but here's the problem then, Don. The idea of Davos is supposed to be about thoughtful leadership. And if where we are right now with our business and political leaders is, if you can't beat em, join em, let me get in on the hustle then. I guess that's my question. Every year it's, what is the Davos man? Well, what the heck is he if he's just somebody who's in on the crypto hustle?

[Don Lemon]

I think they're gonna sound a lot like Donald Trump on Air Force One with Lindsey Graham standing next to him, about to drop to his knees and, you know, shine his shoes or whatever he's gonna do. They said, they said this is about oil, he said. Donald Trump said this is about oil. And Lindsey Graham said, with all of the deals and all of this happening, we're going to become more prosperous with all of these new. So that's what it's about. And that's what Davos is going to be about. That's it.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Okay, then when are we going to talk about debt and deficits? If we're going to become more prosperous this way, it's going to cost us an enormous amount of money. So in Davos, where the biggest investors in bond daddies go, what do they think about this kind of spending?

[Kara Swisher]

All right, let's go on a quick break. We come back, we'll talk about what a buzzy, low budget Canadian show means for the future of entertainment. I know you guys love this one.

[Narrator]

For most of the history of television, if you missed a show, you just missed it. It was over, it was gone. But then this little company called TiVo came along and gave people superpowers. You could pause live television, you could rewind it, you could save it and watch it later. It was incredible. And the people who had it could not stop talking about it. This week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology. We talk about the history of TiVo and how it is that a company whose products actually no one ever really had or used became one of the most iconic stories in tech. All that on Version History. Wherever you get podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm back with Don Lemon, Stephanie Ruhl, and Brooke Hamerling. Now we're gonna get into something a little lighter. We had a lot of time to take in more TV shows and movies over the holiday break. Let's talk about the breakout star of the past few weeks, Heated rivalry, which is your favorite thing also? Tons, apparently. Stephanie, you can weigh into explain very briefly a cultural impact of the show and talk what it means from a business perspective. This was a low budget Canadian production, not unlike K Pop Demon Hunters.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Same thing, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Canadian and America.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Well, Stephanie said earlier, what was the occupying the minds of American people? This is what's occupying the minds of American people, which is Heated Rivalry, a gay hockey drama series coming out of Canada. A lot of people think it's HBO because it's been distributed by hbo, but it was made by this here in Australia. Yeah. In the US it was made by this streaming platform in Canada called Crave. And it costs 3 to 5 million an episode. Compare that to Stranger Things, which I think was like 50 million episode. And what is dominating the conversation right now? It's heated rivalry in every aspect. I mean, people are like, don, you've rewatched it, right? This is a phenomenon. People are rewatching it. People are not just watching a series.

[Don Lemon]

As the expert gay man on the. On the panel. Well, you know what's so interesting? It's not just. That's when you said it was a gay story. It's actually a love story.

[Brooke Hammerling]

It's a love story. It is a love story. But people are calling it the gay hockey Show.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But it is sex heavy. It is sex heavy. It is.

[Brooke Hammerling]

But the most important episode of that episode five had no sex. And what you're seeing, I think it's a really interesting thing. I mean, first of all, do you know that According to Pornhub 47% of viewers of gay porn are straight women. You know, that's just the way it is.

[Don Lemon]

Straight women are talking about this show. Straight women love this show. But Brooke, let me. I want to challenge you on this. Is it sex heavy or is it just people? Or is it just that people are not used to seeing gay sex?

[Brooke Hammerling]

No, I mean, I feel like I've.

[Don Lemon]

Seen straight shows that have lots of sex, more sex than this show. And no one says it's sex heavy. It's just that they're maybe not used to seeing gay men being intimate on screen that way.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Well, I think Kara's favorite show, Hunting Wives, walked so these boys could run.

[Kara Swisher]

That was the amused bouche to this.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I was just about to say the reason I said sex heavy is cause my experience in watching Hunting Wives, where I would leave like my family room and watch it in a private area, I had the same experience.

[Don Lemon]

Why?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Because I have kids running around my house.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I mean, yeah, you would nail an.

[Don Lemon]

Instrument like going to rivalry on the plane left.

[Kara Swisher]

And I was like, oh, my God.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Well, so you know what it is?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Wait, you know what it is? You act heavy. Well, no, when there's the presence, when you're aware that oral sex is taking place and you have children in your house, like, that's sex heavy TV for me. We've established regular missionary sex happens on tv and both those shows feature a different flavor.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Yeah, a lot of.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you're right, you're right. Well, talk about the two of them together because, you know, Hunting Wives is coming back for his second season. Heal Rivalry is two more seasons.

[Brooke Hammerling]

So here's the thing. I think it's. You have a bunch of unknowns and we're also watching in particular. I mean, there are three main guys which are Connor Story, who plays Ilya, who speaks. If you watch Russian talk, which is TikTok with Russians, they lose. They're losing their minds over his accent and his Russian when not just his accent speaking English, but his Russian. This is a Texan born and raised who started taking Russian lessons a week before filming. It's phenomenal. You're watching Connor's story become. And right before our eyes, star is born. We hope that fame doesn't corrupt him. Hudson Williams, who plays Shane Hollander, is an unknown that is just having an unbelievable moment. And then the most known I loved him in Schitt's Creek was Francois Arnaud, who plays Scott Hunter. And he is the one who had that pivotal, pivotal episode, which is episode five, which has zero sex So I think they bring you in. It's sexy, right?

[Kara Swisher]

It's sexy. And so let me tell you, Brooke just brought up this idea of unknowns and lower costs and stuff like that. Talk a little bit about this from a like. Because right now, the costs of Hollywood are massive and sometimes they pay off. Look, Avatar is killing it at the box office, especially abroad. But there's a lot of these. Something. When I interviewed Ted Sarandos years ago, he was like, there's only going to be the big ones and the little ones, and the middle is.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But that's why the beauty of this show is the same stroke of beauty of independent media. Right before independent media existed, when there was just giant pillars, right when there was three television networks, when there was three papers of note, when there was three movie studios, you had to work your way up and be part of this giant conglomerate and marketing machine. And that's the only way that content could be distributed. Now, if you make something magical, it can find legs, it can find a home. And that's sort of the beauty of. Right. We talk so much about the problems of social media and all the bad actors and so on and so forth, but when you now have the system broken and these unknowns can create something on a small platform and then it gets distributed, to me, like, that's extraordinary. And that's something that couldn't have happened decades ago. Back when there were three studio heads with their arms folded, running high Hollywood.

[Kara Swisher]

There were breakouts, right?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Yes.

[Don Lemon]

What she said. Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

Go ahead, Johnny.

[Don Lemon]

Kara, look, I want to say, remember when we had this conversation, we talked about some of the things you see on independent media and independent journalists and podcasts. It's done by a skeleton crew, what you would call for broadcast. And you walk into a big broadcast studio office and you go, what are all these people doing here? And so Stephanie is right. This is where the media is going. There will be big breakthroughs. There's gonna be the big guys, and then I still consider myself a little guy. There's gonna be a little guy like me. But this is where it's going. And I think it's actually fantastic because something that's small can have lift, as you say. And something that's big, where it's overthought, like what Stephanie says, with these guys and people sitting around going, it's gotta go through this or whatever. That's not where we are anymore. We're not there anymore. People want it a little messy and authentic. I agree. I agree.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

It's a transition period. And I think there's space for both. And I think that's awesome about it.

[Brooke Hammerling]

What do you guys. I'm afraid. And so I'd love your thoughts. Is that with the success and the popularity, I mean, it's become the cultural zeitgeist. You have Stephen Colbert talking about he was a bossy bottom. You had Jeff Goldblum asked last night on the red carpet at the awards show whether or not he's.

[Don Lemon]

You bring up a good point. This is going to change society like Will and Grace did. I think that's going to.

[Brooke Hammerling]

What happens if it changes the show where they're like, oh, now that we're so popular, we're going to. Instead of 3 to 5 million, we're going to go to 20 to 30 million. That I feel will change the heartbeat.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it's only got a short. All these shows now have such a shorter life. Right.

[Brooke Hammerling]

But if the budgets go triple.

[Don Lemon]

Right.

[Brooke Hammerling]

These kids are now huge celebrities.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, it happened with gleam.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Or maybe the example that you're pointing to is remember the first season of Nobody wants this.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Exactly.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Nobody expected it. You loved every minute of it. It was like, what is this? It's touching me. It's connecting me. And then the second season was an actual. Which had so much hype.

[Brooke Hammerling]

It was branding.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Had so much branding and product placement. All the people like all the women like me who felt that show, who are connected to that show, then felt like you were being sold an Airbnb.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Experience and Dunkin Donuts. It was awful.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

And I felt like. I felt like they had this magic. And it's still. I'm not knocking the show, but they lost their magic of being this. We're just gonna make this. Nobody wants this. Literally the title. Nobody wants this. And we're just gonna make it. And it connected with everybody. And then when season two came and they product placed the hell out of it, there was a lot more like, I'm a. You know.

[Kara Swisher]

Which is the difficulty of having, you know, the long timelines, especially with the streamers. Like thinking of Pluribus, another popular show.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Oh, for God's sake. Listen, Pluribus shot.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Carol won every time a stone. Carol won the.

[Kara Swisher]

What did it win? What did it win?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

The awards last night.

[Brooke Hammerling]

It doesn't matter. Like five people. I love the show, but you cannot put it in the same breath as he did.

[Kara Swisher]

I've always put in the same psycho. I'm not talking about.

[Brooke Hammerling]

But it is.

[Don Lemon]

Can I jump in here?

[Kara Swisher]

It is about a lot. It is.

[Don Lemon]

Can I jump in Here and tell you, I don't think it's going to change because Jacob Tierney, who, you know, Brooke, is the. He's a Canadian. Creator of this. They're adapting a book. They have to stay a book written by a woman to the book. A book written by a woman. And I've been watching him because I'm obsessed. My husband's like, you're obsessed with this. And so I think that Jacob Tierney knows that it cannot change. It's gotta be authentic, and it's gotta stay grounded. But here's what I just want to say this one thing. You know, how Will and Grace changed the culture and made it okay for, you know, gay people to kiss on TV or just to have gay plot lines on television. I believe that this is doing the same thing to the culture because as Brooke mentioned, straight guys are talking about it. Hockey podcast are talk. Podcasters are talking about it.

[Brooke Hammerling]

People who Empty Netters, baby.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. And so Empty Netters is a podcast.

[Brooke Hammerling]

With a bunch of white boys who are sports hockey fanatics. They're laughing, they are crying. It's the biggest green flag of men I've ever seen. I've never been.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Can I say one thing?

[Kara Swisher]

Go ahead.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Can I tell you a story?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, go ahead, please.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Okay, good. Okay, I'm gonna tell you a story.

[Kara Swisher]

Brooke's gonna get it.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

So I don't have a sports background whatsoever. When I was a senior in college, I went to Mardi Gras in New Orleans, and a boy took me to a dinner at then senior in college's house. Peyton. Man, it was a big. At the time, I didn't even know who he was. He was about to win the Heisman right after Mardi Gras ended. I'm sitting at a long, long, long dinner table of all of these Ole Miss football players. I know nothing about Ole Miss. I know nothing about college football. But looking at A table of 45 boys, I say to the guy next to me, what is it like? What does the mix go with? You know, like gay players on the team and straight players on the team. Okay. This question came because I'm a girl who doesn't know sports, but I know math and probability and statistics would tell you when dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of men are in a group, there's some gay ones in there. When I asked this question at this dinner at Peyton Manning's house in 19 or his parents house in 1997, my date practically threw me in the bayou, flipped the table.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Were you escorted out? Right.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

For real? For real. I Mean, a guy hit the table, full hands, like, what, are you kidding me? I mean, like it was. I was on the fast train back to Jersey and here we are 30 years later and nobody's saying, let me say you play hockey, you're gay. It's probability and statistics. There's going to be some gay guys on the team.

[Kara Swisher]

That's never an issue for women's sports. Who's straight here is what we say. But may I point something out? Brooke Erroneous, as you think I am. Who among us has been invited to do a cameo? Unhated rivalry, Karen Switchart.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Honestly, Karen, where are you? Yeah, and are you Mother Pucker? Yes, you were a total mother pucker. I was, by the way, a puck bunny when I was in high school.

[Kara Swisher]

I love all the cameos, my friend.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I know you're a puck bunny.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay?

[Brooke Hammerling]

It's, you know.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Is that like a la prostitute?

[Don Lemon]

Is that like a groupie? Is that a group of people?

[Brooke Hammerling]

It's a groupie of hockey players. Yeah.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

No, Bunny, no, you weren't Nobody.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Yeah, it was for the Rangers. I grew up in Rye. That's where the Rangers were. We were puck bunnies and our parents were like, if you can get us Ranger tickets, like it's. Have fun.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Puck you.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Kara.

[Don Lemon]

Brooke, can I ask you, do you like Ilya and what's his name?

[Brooke Hammerling]

I can't remember.

[Don Lemon]

Which love story do you like more? Do you like Ilya or do you like Scott?

[Brooke Hammerling]

Well, I was a Scott Hunter. Cause that scene. But I don't love Scott's boyfriend. I'm just gonna be honest. He's like a short king. He's great, but he's not my guy. But Ilya and Shane, I'm obsessed with. But Ilya, I mean. And Connor's story, there's this video of him that he did with Interview magazine where he's wearing a, you know, a Gold's gym T shirt and he's lip syncing to Madonna's Like a Prayer. And he does water all over him. And he. Well, no, that's a different one. But this is the one where he does this. Yeah, he's. Anyway, he's. He's. It's very. I can't explain it, but this thing has gone so viral. They're showing it in nightclubs. DJs are interjecting.

[Don Lemon]

Sports bars.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Sports bars.

[Kara Swisher]

They're showing it.

[Brooke Hammerling]

There's a very funny TikTok part of culture in newsletter this week that is these two women that are saying like dinner in a movie. And their Girlfriend's eating Chinese food out of with their chopsticks on the floor. Watching this 30 second clip over and over again.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I wonder if tuna melts are gonna.

[Don Lemon]

Make a comeback because of this.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Brooke, they never left.

[Kara Swisher]

We're stopping now. Let me just say, when did they go? I wonder if Donald Trump is watching.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Heated Rush, you know that I could just imagine the conversation that like they.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, Lindsey Graham is watching it.

[Don Lemon]

There's so many MAGA and Republicans. Of course they're watching it.

[Kara Swisher]

Allegedly. All right, let's go on a quick break and when we come back, I want to know what you all think about the biggest stories of 2026. Dawn, Stephanie, Brooke, we're back. Moving along, It's a new year. I want to know what each of you will be the biggest stories of 2026. I want you to spin it forward. Don, you'll start politics or whatever. Whatever you think, but let's. Politics would be great, but whatever you think is the biggest story going forward.

[Don Lemon]

Well, I think the biggest story going forward is going to be the fracturing of maga. It's already started. The MAGA media, starting with the Megyn Kellys and the Candace Owens and the Benny Johnsons of the Marvel.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they're beefing.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, they're beefing. And I think that is the beginning of the end of magic. That's what I believe the biggest story is going to be. Moving forward.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Okay. All right.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

For me, you know, I'm gonna pick the economy because at the end of the day, I think how people vote is truly rooted in their pocketbook and how they live. And what's interesting is the economy is growing, but its growth is fragile. And it's really in the palm of Trump's hands. Like whether the economy builds or weakens depends entirely on Trump's, Trump's deglobalization agenda. Right. Tariffs, mass deportations. So I just think where we go in this K shaped economy, right, where the rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer, and that's only getting exaggerated this year. Where we're headed is where I'm laser beam focus.

[Don Lemon]

Is it really growing or is it AstroTurf? That's why. Because that K thing, I'm like, is that growth real? Because people are a lot poorer and you need more people being able to buy things than fewer people being able to buy them. So I don't know if that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, well, he could be goosing it with Venezuelans. There's ways to goose it, right? To goose the economy.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

The economy is Certainly being goosed. We could have more federal intervention, we could have more farm aid bills of the like. But remember, when you're facing less and less regulation in your business business, which is what we're facing right now, you're going to see businesses spend and grow. The thing that's standing in the way is tariffs. And Trump is right fat in the middle of it. But you're right. Is it just Astroturf? Because Kara talks about this all the time. When you look under the Magnificent Seven, under those big giant tech companies that aren't getting hurt, they're being helped by AI that aren't getting hurt by mass deportations. When you look under there, lots of those companies are struggling. And if consumers don't have the money to spend or the money that they're spending doesn't go so far, it's only rich. So that's my point is it's a fragile economy and the person who has his hands on the steering wheel is Donald Trump and let's see what he does.

[Kara Swisher]

So what do you imagine being the best case for him and the worst?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I actually think the best case for him would be if the tariffs were to be ruled illegal. That would be his most graceful exit. He could say, I wanted to make America great. I wanted to bring manufacturing back, but they wouldn't let let me. Companies would say, great, we're not having to face these tariffs. Happy days are here again. I don't think that's going to happen or it's going to be super messy. We'll soon find out. Right? Trump is the first to say the market is the economy. It's not. The market has done very well. It could do even better. But under that, what is the world gonna look like? Kids coming outta college can't get jobs when our health care.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me interject spirulina for a second. One of the things is we were looking for pajamas yesterday for something and, and one of the things that's noticeable is there's fewer items, harder to find and more expensive. Even if you're, you know, it was kind of. No, it's noticeable in every store now.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Was this online or in.

[Kara Swisher]

No, it was offline. It was an offline.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Yeah, it was noticeable, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

But I'm telling you, that's how most people shop.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But what's noticeable is the big have gotten bigger and the small are getting smaller. Small and big sized businesses could not survive tariffs. If you were a giant company, you could front load your inventory, you could keep cost down. If you're a small Business in Georgetown. And you're selling, selling toys and books and pajamas. You can't weather storms like this.

[Kara Swisher]

This was target.

[Don Lemon]

Can I, I just want to say this. I think the best case scenario for him would to be to completely fail with the economy because Donald Trump does not like to admit that he is wrong. And so if the economy goes off of a cliff, that will be the biggest wake up call. It's like a, it's like an addict. You can't. They have to hit rock bottom before they make a change. And I think Donald Trump, the economy has to hit rock bottom for Donald Trump, Trump and Republicans to understand that he's fucking up the economy.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But Kara, let me just make one final point, okay? And then we're talking about the economy for the United States of America. Donald Trump is currently flanked by the most powerful tech giants in the world. And while we think, oh my gosh, look at those tech guys kissing his ass, no way they have played him. AI is going to change every element of the way that we live. And we are now going into an AI universe where there is absolutely no regulation. The federal government is even stopping state regulations. So these, this group of individuals, these 10, 15 guys, are becoming more powerful and more successful than any people we've seen in our lifetimes. And that to me is the story to focus on the power they have amassed. Like the whole, like, let's eat the rich. Eat the rich is over here. The mega rich, that tiny sliver of universe of people are so extraordinarily powerful and have so much control.

[Don Lemon]

I don't think so. Richer than beyond belief.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Correct? Correct.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, absolutely. So, Brooke, what do you think the biggest cultural story of 2026?

[Brooke Hammerling]

Whatever you want. God, there's so many. But the thing that I'm thinking about as we were talking about Hollywood and the business of Hollywood, which is again, not my business, but as a voyeur and as a cultural sort of, you know, fan guru, guru. By the way, my newsletter exists because of Stephanie and Kara, because of you guys. But I think it's the marketing of these movies. For example, I look at Timothee Chalamet's movie Marty Supreme. He is a very genius. It makes a lot of sense why he and Kylie Jenner of the Kardashian world are paired up. They have very similar mindsets of marketing, how to market. This movie was marketed in a way they have never seen before. If you watch TikTok or whatnot, a lot of people were very unsure about the movie. They saw it, they came out they're like, I don't know if I love. I really don't know. But I went to it. I went to it because of the marketing. It was not done in a traditional rollout like night the night shows, standing.

[Kara Swisher]

On top of the sphere.

[Brooke Hammerling]

He did the sphere, he did limps, he did a fashion drop and had all of these sports icons wearing Marty supreme swag. It's really a whole thing. And when you're seeing like, you know, there's a YouTube show, Alan's World, that is now, I think the New York Times just did a big story on it. 9. Like, I don't know, billions and billions and billions of views a month. And this is. These are shorts. This is the stuff that, you know, the. Your friends Meg Whitman and what's his name want to kill themselves over. Because these shows are quick.

[Kara Swisher]

They directionally correct.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Directionally correct. Just didn't have the right stuff, I guess.

[Don Lemon]

But.

[Brooke Hammerling]

But the fact is, I think how like you're telling these stories if whether it's big budget or small budget, the marketing, the way people are connecting to audiences, they are looking at this now and saying, oh, it's not about sex.

[Kara Swisher]

It's not doing that well for the price.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

No. But Cara, imagine if the Leonardo DiCaprio movie that came out last year, which battle after another this extraordinary film, I'm not saying it should have had the Timothee, Chalamet, Kardashian, their marketing plan, but had they employed something thing, more people, renegade marketing in a different way, people now are like, what's that Leo movie? Where can I see it? And it was months ago. I think they missed. Those are old school and I'm not calling them old, but like old school Hollywood mega celebrities where they probably had to beg Leo to do any press at all because he's Leo. Now you're looking back saying if they would have employed some of these, like renegade kind of tactics, it may have had a bigger impact.

[Don Lemon]

Stephanie is right. You've got to have. Have either guerrilla marketing. It's got to be social media heavy. It's got to. It's not just. You can't rely on the old things of we'll put an ad here and we'll do.

[Kara Swisher]

Or a Vanity Fair cover.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Traditional media doesn't work in this environment.

[Kara Swisher]

Although sometimes it does. Of course, the Vanity Fair Susie Wiles piece blew up.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I'm talking about movies. I'm talking about getting to the zeitgeist of culture, Right?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Listen, everybody was ripping all over Vanity Fair that they were like, like what A mist, you know, during the whole Olivia Ryan thing, blah, blah, blah. We stopped talking about that as soon as they nailed their cover.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Brooke Hammerling]

That is those photos.

[Kara Swisher]

Those photos. The photos were what was most.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I refuse to insult those photos. I take issue. I don't care.

[Kara Swisher]

I love them.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I take huge issue with everyone going after Caroline Levitt and her lip injections. We can't in one hand complain about decency and complain about a president, you know, saying things that are rude or mean and then go after Caroline Levitt for getting the same lip injections that everybody else in Hollywood does.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I certainly don't look at it as the criticizing her. I see it as this. The genius of the photographer telling a story.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

No, no, no. Yes. The genius of the photographer telling the story. You can put in category A.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Correct. The category B, making fun of her.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

No, making fun of what she looks like is exactly what we're saying is wrong about the president with his sophomoric insults of people.

[Don Lemon]

For me, it's more about them getting played. They. I mean, if they're the White House communications person, they should be smarter about their communications.

[Brooke Hammerling]

As a communications person, I changed my profile picture on Twitter of the cesspool of what I. When I used it to that picture because it's like she's a communications person. She should know exactly what was ahead.

[Kara Swisher]

Of her, what was happening. That was agreed.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Going after a woman for Botox. Sister, please. Who has.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I. I think they all looked bad. I think the only person who actually was onto it was J.D. vance. He's like, you're gonna make us look bad, aren't you? And I was.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Well, he did go to Yale University.

[Kara Swisher]

I know that's true. These matter of fancy. But one of the things that was clear is I don't think they. I think they made the outside look like the inside and the inside, the outside look like the inside. That's my feeling. It's just the way they are. So let me ask you one last question. You talked about the movies. What caused you to go to a movie? This hall if you did. I went to see Song Sung Blue, which I love with especially Kate Hudson. I thought was really quite a revelation in it. Is there what forced you into the theater? One very quick answer. Cause we gotta move on after that.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Brooke, I didn't go to the movies. This is the first holiday season. I didn't. First of all, it's pouring rain in la. But I just rewatched heated rivalry and that Palm beach reality show that Netflix has dropped which is insane. Called Members Only, which is like the Mar a Lago Real Housewives. It is astonishing.

[Kara Swisher]

Lots of lip injections. Okay. Lots of lip injections. Stephanie, what about you? Did you. Did anything fall into it?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I did not go to the movies, but I'm a bad. I didn't go to the movies. Even when people love going to the movies, I either like to leave the house dressed with high heels and uncomfortable underwear, or I like to stay home. But like, the movies to me, where it's like, a little bit stinky in there and I'm not that comfortable in the chairs. That's a hard.

[Kara Swisher]

No, Don, Anything.

[Don Lemon]

Same thing. I like to leave the house with high heels and uncomfortable underwear.

[Brooke Hammerling]

But, yeah.

[Don Lemon]

I did.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Or.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Or none at all.

[Don Lemon]

Don, I haven't made an effort to go to the movies in years because I'm just. I'm like Stephanie. I'm just not that interested now. I go to movie premieres. People invite me to go to movie premieres.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Yes. You know why, Don? Because you got to put high heels and uncomfortable underwear.

[Kara Swisher]

Underwear on that if you're gonna leave.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

The house, you wanna go out and.

[Don Lemon]

Get your picture taken on a red carpet. Right?

[Kara Swisher]

See, this is why all the noise about Netflix talking about things. I think they're making the correct argument, which is people can go if they want, but it's not the Holy Grail anymore. All right, one more quick break. We'll be back with one more question for each of you. Everyone, we're back. Okay, I have one last question for you, and I'm acquiring a prediction for first up, Stephanie. We ended 2025 with a lot of market talk about an AI bubble and whether it would burst. If that's what you want to talk about, what do you think your prediction would be around AI?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I don't have a prediction of whether it's going to burst, but all eyes are on AI and certainly mine. The question is like, is it truly the future and is it going to convert every element of how we're living? There are certainly companies that have added AI to their prospectus who are going to go bust. Right? Like, there are elements of the dot com bust that, like. I remember I worked in banking at the time, and if there was a dot com next to the end of your company's name, people were scrambling to attend your IPO party. There are companies that this isn't going to work out for. However, the masters of the universe in the AI space and the companies that are are smartly and effectively adopting AI are going to be the companies that soar into the future. How that's going to transform our workforce, I don't yet know. So I don't have a prediction of where AI is going, but it's certainly our future.

[Kara Swisher]

Any other prediction you want to just throw out there, I would just say.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

My prediction is while people say that, like the president spiraling or this and that, I don't think he is. I think Donald Trump is happier than ever. I think he's certainly wealthier than ever. And he's finally surrounded by the world's richest, most powerful people who didn't accept him for years, and now they're clinking champagne glasses and couldn't be.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I think Melania is holding his hand again. I mean, look at it.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Well, I very much worry about the future of our democracy. I worry about the health of our economy. I worry about the health and safety of our country and peace in the United States. That particular president, while people say he's a lame duck, and he is a lame duck, if you think he's sad or frustrated or unhappy, he's not. He was in Trump 1.0, sitting in his bed in the White House with his whole team saying, no, sir, you can't. Now he is surrounded by, yes, may I have another? And can I give you an airplane and some gold bars? He likey.

[Kara Swisher]

He likey. Okay, next up, Don. Talk about that. Will President Trump make it through the year? Careful. The answer. I made a prediction. I'm with the Peruvian shamans on this one. But what is your thoughts of what's coming up in politics or anywhere? And also anything else you want to.

[Don Lemon]

I'm more in line with you. I'm not so sure that he's gonna. I'm not like Stephanie. I'm not sure he's gonna make it till the end of the year. Cause I think his health is bad. I think they're not letting on, you know, just how sick he is or his real health condition. And I think that he is. Well. You think he's happy? I think he's scared. I think he's afraid of the Epstein files and what could come. And a lot of this, including Venezuela, has to do with distraction from the Epstein files. And I believe that's why the rollout has been so chaotic, because they want. They're trying to throw people off the trail. They don't want a road map. However, I do believe, as I said earlier, that this is the beginning of the end for the MAGA movement as we know it. And I think that Hakeem Jeffries could actually end up becoming the majority leader before 2026. I think they're going to lose. Republicans are going to lose 2020.

[Kara Swisher]

For the end of 2020, before the.

[Don Lemon]

End of 2026, I think there are going to be a lot of Marjorie Taylor Greene defectors. Enough that it could change the balance of the Congress. That's what I believe.

[Kara Swisher]

Balance of the Congress. Okay. Anything else?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But doesn't that depend on where Democrats fall?

[Don Lemon]

It does.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

If Democrats scoop up that more center space, they're there to take those votes. But if they don't, then can't fall.

[Don Lemon]

I think if they scoop up that center space, I think that would be a mistake because the movement in the party, remember the people who elected Donald Trump were the people who were motivated to go to the polls. And those were kind of the extremes, whether you like the that or not. I think the energy in the Democratic Party right now is on the progressive side. It's not in the center. The center is over for that. People want someone with balls. They want Jasmine Crockett. They want aoc. And I know people don't believe that, but when I'm out there talking to the people, that's who they want. They want Mamdani. They love him. They love Bernie.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

You don't think Chris Murphy has balls?

[Don Lemon]

I think he does, but Chris Murphy does not. He does not have the riz that all of those other folks have. He doesn't get nearly the play. I mean, I mean, not. I don't want to be insulting. That's kind of a cable news thing for if you're out there talking to the folks they love, Jasmine, aoc, Bernie and the like, they're not talking that much about Chris Murphy. They probably don't even know Chris Murphy's name.

[Kara Swisher]

So in that. In that vein, let me do a follow up. If Tim Walls is abandoning his reelection campaign for governor, it looks like it might be Amy Klobuchar who is running and she would be the first woman governor of Minnesota. Minnesota. What is your prediction for then, a presidential candidate? What does that look like? People will be talking after November, before November, for 2020.

[Don Lemon]

The easy one is that it's going to be Gavin Newsom. Whether he can win or not. That's a whole nother story. But I think it's going to be Gavin Newsom. I do think that. I think someone like an AOC might run if she's too polarizing. I don't know about that, but I think a strong ticket, I believe, would be Gavin and Maryland Westmore would be Westmore and Gavin Newsom. That would be a really, really strong ticket.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I just. I hear everything Don is saying, and I think that Jasmine Crockett is amazing and AOC are amazing, and they're exciting, exciting women. But I also think there are parts of this country that aren't necessarily looking for excitement. Look at this. Last election, Mamdani had an extraordinary win in New York, and you saw Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Span win in New Jersey and Virginia. And I think if you took those three people and put them into. I think Mikey couldn't have won in New York and he couldn't have won in New Jersey. So I think that the key for Democrats is to truly figure out for once, how do you become an actual big tent party? And I don't know the answer to that.

[Kara Swisher]

Can I ask you a question? What does Mama Rule want to do? Where is she going?

[Brooke Hammerling]

Oh, where is Mama Rule? Louise.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Louise, trust me, she can.

[Kara Swisher]

My mom likes Mar. Just so you know. Oh, my mom.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

My mom certainly likes Marco Rubio. She's very disappointed in what Donald is doing. But Louise Rule, at the end of the day, cares about the price of London broil. She cares about gas prices. She's not focused on Maduro. And so she would love. There's nothing Louise Rule would love more than a George Bush, Mitt Romney renaissance. And Sorry, Louise. That Falcon Crest and Dynasty, your other favorites are coming back.

[Don Lemon]

Stephanie. In a way, though, I think we're saying the same thing. Disagree with you about the big tent, that they have to figure that out. And every candidate. Mamdani doesn't work in Iowa. You know what I mean? It's not gonna work there. But I'm saying the energy, like the loudest voices, the people who are more motivated, I believe, to go to the polls. But you know, look, there's a quiet. There's probably a quiet middle out there. I don't disagree with you on that, but I just think that that's, you know, that's the folks that people are.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Interested in, I guess. But I'm just saying, Don, I just don't know that, like, maybe I'm not saying the country's getting sick of what's like just. Cause something is going viral. Maybe going viral is what's making us sick. And I'm not saying centrifuges is the answer, but I'm just saying we gotta find a way to be constructive.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, but I think it's constructive when I say that the energy's on the progressive side, but the Progressives want universal healthcare. That's not, I don't believe that that's conservative or liberal. I think that that's a right that every American should have. The progressive side wants a living wage for everyone. And look, I'm not a Democrat or Republican. I'm an independent. But since yes, they do, but they're not as motivated about it. And it was an idea that came from the progressive side. Look at where affordability came from. And now the Republicans are using it.

[Kara Swisher]

I think the point Don is making is the Democratic Party is changing and there are also conservative versions of this in the Democratic Party or more Greg Cesar Kazar Excuse me. There's all kinds of people, even just there's a lot more congressional people. I'm going to finish with Brooke. We're recording the day after the Critics Choice Awards. Speaking of picking and choosing which kicks off awards season, do they even matter, these awards, Zarim?

[Brooke Hammerling]

I mean, do the award shows themselves matter?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I mean there's obviously the Golden Globes is coming up.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Yeah. I mean, predicting questions ahead, I think. Yes and no. And very different for different reasons. I mean, you just had the news that the Oscars are moving to YouTube in a couple years. That's a big, big deal. I don't think. It used to be like we all would gather and watch like the Oscars and we'd have an Oscar party and have Buffalo. People would do things like that. That doesn't matter. I think what is the clips. Right. So we're watching like, like the Jeff Goldblum interview yesterday about he did rivalry when he was asked about the cottage has gone viral. The Tiktokers and Instagrammers who are posting about fashion. And then you're hearing about movies like from the Winds. People care about they're like, oh, what is this? One battle after another. So it's not the shows themselves. It's the, it is the viral moments. You had Timothee Chalamet profess his love for Kylie. These things are which then goes into Marty Supreme. So it, that is the stuff that, that is relevant. But nobody's sitting there. Like the majority of people aren't sitting there and watching, you know, people's speeches and all of the sort of different nominees. They care about the fashion, they care about the viral moments and they care about those sort of things that come after.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they're easy to dive into.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But Kara, the Olympics are in a few weeks and I do think just like last summer Olympics, look at for example, college football, professional football viewership is off the Charts.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Totally.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

And so I do think that there is. People do want to come together and watch things that are joyful, that are exciting. And so while they might not be sitting down and saying I'm going to watch the Oscars, things like the Olympics coming up.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Correct.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Even though the sports, that's an exemption.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Or live music, I mean we are all coming together for that. It's just these awards specifically that used to be these sort of like cultural moments.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So Brooke, what is your. You're always way ahead of trends. What's the trend we are not paying attention to and one that should be trashed.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Oh well the thing, I mean I, I think we are starting to pay attention to. But this content like YouTube when you're talking about billions of views a month compared to like anything else and what you're seeing, how much money are being. That is we have to see like. And the, the, the demographic for that are 7 to 14 year old girls. It's your demon hunters. It's that, that is the market. Right. Like forget about, forget about Gen Z. We're looking at alpha and whatnot. So I think that is where you're going to start seeing a lot of stuff being created and all of that. Music, music, music. And I think the music aspect, whether it's live, whether it's incorporated into TV shows, movies, that's what we are really leaning into. I, I would love to put the Erica Kirk memes to bed. Like the Erica Kirk morning tour. Like she's still blowing up. I don't want to see her anymore.

[Kara Swisher]

But she's still blowing up.

[Brooke Hammerling]

She is still blowing up.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

People mostly make it hold on. Is public.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Bad making fun of her. They're calling it the Mourning tour. There's a whole meme going on. Like I mourned Subway's $5 like the loss of $5 sub foot long longer than she mourned the death of her husband. And these just keep going and it is in poor taste. And they have remember like the guy who did the dance, the Korean singer who like gets shot up through the stage, Gangnam Style. That's like they're comparing her to that where she's coming out on stage and then the whole story of her and Jimmy.

[Kara Swisher]

But you'd like it to go away, don't you think?

[Stephanie Ruhl]

The like you've got Turning Point USA raking in the money and their devotees. And then you have people who are, who are. It's, it's a grift. And then you have people who are crushing her 24 7. But don't you think there's an. Maybe I'm naive. I think there's an exhaustion of mean where people are like, can we move on from that?

[Brooke Hammerling]

Oh, definitely.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

And just live my life forward.

[Don Lemon]

Well, that's. It will go away, but it's. This one has had a. Brooke, right? A longer shelf life than most. Yeah. And by the way, I am surprised the Oscars are going to YouTube. I did not know that. You learn something new every day.

[Kara Swisher]

2029. Yeah.

[Brooke Hammerling]

2029. Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. It'll probably be better.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Let me.

[Kara Swisher]

So, Brooke, what is something we don't know that's cresting slowly out in the ocean? It's a tiny little ripple.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I think we're gonna start. I think heated rivalry. What we're seeing is gonna cause a whole new sort of moment for people to come forward and be emboldened, whether it's sex, whether it's the things that we used to not be able to talk about. You had that with hunting wise. You're seeing that, and that's coming in content that people are creating.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Is there a heated. I don't know. So tell me, Brooke, is there a heated rivalry, conservative pushback against it?

[Brooke Hammerling]

I'm sure there is, but it is not getting any traction.

[Don Lemon]

No, I can talk about. About that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Don Lemon]

I've seen conservative, the log cabin Republican type believe that it is conservative coded because they are closeted. They're not open about it. They are, you know, they're not pushing it and putting in everybody's face except for that big giant kiss. I don't want to, you know, ruin. Be a spoiler. But there. The conservative gays believe that it is gay conservative coded.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Yeah, but, but. But I don't mean conservative gays. If we're talking about like the. The. The woke pendulum. So if we're talking about, like here we were four years ago and now we're, you know, you got Andrew Tate coming over politicians houses for dinner. Where does heated rivalry. Like, does that. Does that family. Does that faux family values movement? Are they mad about it?

[Don Lemon]

Well, this isn't. I don't think this is a woke thing. This is a. This is kind of a middle. This is kind of a normie kind of, you know, show that has hit a. That has hit the zeitgeist in a way that's not woke. And I do think that it's going to have some penetration in middle America. Like, you know, Will and Grace. People may not like it initially, but then it just kind of grows on you. You're used to seeing, but it is.

[Brooke Hammerling]

The antithesis of the Andrew Tate's and that's what's so fascinating to me. And there are people that are saying it's a psyops whole thing that was done to distract us from what's going on with Trump. So there is a growing group of people that believe this is all a conspiracy.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what I think?

[Brooke Hammerling]

Look over there. Look at gay sex over there.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Like Cara, you're paying attention to the pen. Like where the pendulum has fallen.

[Kara Swisher]

I think everybody. I thought to me, one of the great moments of 2025 and it paid a lot of attention was when golden performed at. When the people from K Pop Demon Hunters performed at Macy's Parade. Everybody loved it. It was run by obviously, I think a gay guy. You know, the whole thing was very woke in a very lovely way. In a way that wasn't in your face woke. It was. It's a very subtle woke. Has learned how to. How to be woke. Now that everybody loves the evolution, the evolution of woke. It's like I think he did rival's woke. I think Hunting Wives is real woke, but it's a whole different slot.

[Brooke Hammerling]

But they're all maga in hunting waves. They're doing hook and maga.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a genius joke.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But that's the genius and the joke of Hunting Wives.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. That's right. And exactly like guns, maga, lesbians. It's like they're fucking. What we learned the way a lot. The way a lot of Congress congresspeople. Sarah McBride is a good example. Very slyly lovely person. She's. She's, you know, imperfect allies. It's a different and so Golden. If you listen to that song, it is completely about being gay. It's about being like who you are. But everybody wants like I have the most gender coded son in Solomon. He's such a dude. He's always showing his butt. He's like, I have a penis. Everything. He's so mad.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But that doesn't mean he's toxic.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

He's just a dude. That's. He's a dude.

[Kara Swisher]

But I have to say, I said, do you like the Saja boys on K Pop? They love K Pop by the way. That is a trend too. He goes, oh no, I like the girls. Like there was. He likes all the boys like the girls. And that didn't happen with my. My other sons immediately rejected the girls. Girls. Now the girls are. And to me they are. So when I saw people respond to Golden. I was like, they have no idea what they're listening to here. And it's. I think there's a new version of woke that is going to infect the whole country of kindness.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But don't you think that version has woke. But that's it. That version of woke those young males who, who, who briefly got swayed into the trumpaverse and then said, hold on.

[Kara Swisher]

A second, you're seeing.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

I'm not against this group, I'm against that. They were just tired. Right. The profile of, of my oldest son is a dude. He's not a toxic male. But, and, and, and so when he was, when he was had this finger waved in his face and yelled at you saw those boys sway. And then moments after the election they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And like, I'm not going there.

[Kara Swisher]

So Ron is doing it. There's a lot of people.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Theo Vaughn is doing it.

[Don Lemon]

I've seen Hunting Wives, but I'm like, just in my personal life, I would not be surprised to see conservatives or maga people doing cocaine or lesbians or shooting, because those are the people who are doing it. In my life as a gay man, my woke gay friends are the most boring with kids people I know and not out doing, sexting, you know, sexing it up. But the conservatives, I know some of them who are close, they're the ones who are out partying every night, who are doing the drugs, who are having the.

[Kara Swisher]

That's always the case.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Right.

[Don Lemon]

And so that would not be a shock to me. So I think it's just letting people know what's happening.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

But wasn't that the genius of Hunting Wives? Right. When you were like, oh my gosh, this is a full MAGA bonanza. Then the next episode, you know the ones doing the chief of police.

[Kara Swisher]

Exactly. That was Dynasty. Like, by the way, when I was a young gay person in Washington D.C. i would say say someone rhymes with Ginsey Dam was in the big gay bars.

[Brooke Hammerling]

I saw them there.

[Kara Swisher]

So I just like this was, this was.

[Brooke Hammerling]

But I do think that the thing, the trend that we're seeing, like you say the Theo Vaughn's, the Joe Rogans, people are realizing it's not just their. I don't think it's because they have become morally awake like Marjorie Taylor Greene. I don't think. I think they see that there's more money to be made in the middle. There's more money to go in and say, actually these people alone.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Don Lemon]

I do think that there is a. This is not what I voted for aspect to it. I believe them when they say that even though it is what they vot. Maybe they didn't think that they would be rounding people up off of the streets like they're doing.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Wait, can I just give a prediction? I really do think my prediction and it touches this. I think this year, honestly, love and kindness will reign supreme. People are so exhausted. And I hear you, Don. And the great hate. I'm so many people even look right. I have every incentive to not want to believe Marjorie Taylor Greene. And when I watch her on. On the View, just talking like a reasonable broad, I'm like, God, I feel you. And I don't know if I feel her beyond that.

[Kara Swisher]

She's not watching heated rivalries.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

No, she's not. But I do think this is the year people will give people a break and realize, let's give one another a break. Life's much easier when you love.

[Don Lemon]

Your actions have to match your words. So I'll give it time. I don't necessarily believe it right now.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. All right, Let me ask the final question, though, because the story of the beginning of 2025 was Elon Musk at the beginning, right? Taking Doge memories.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Karen space.

[Kara Swisher]

Karen, what did. What does I want to know? Because he was the story of 20. We've forgotten since it seems so long ago, but there was a whole cycle of him on top and then on bottom. Now he's back with Trump. He's back with.

[Brooke Hammerling]

He just had dinner. He posted a video, a picture.

[Kara Swisher]

What is his future for this is a tech show. What is. He was the most prominent tech figure in 2025. What happens to him in 2026? I want first Stephanie and then Don and then Brooke. From a culture point of view, Stephanie.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Listen, Doge didn't work in every way, but guess what? He is more powerful than ever. When you look at SpaceX, when you look at the amount of contract possible IPO coming, when you look at how NASA has done less and so much more is being contracted to Elon Musk or what Palantir is doing, I think. I'm not saying Elon Musk learned his lesson, but Elon Musk is in a far better position personally and professionally today. On par to be richer than anyone could have ever fathomed without getting 24. 7 Public scrutiny of the grand failure that was Doge. Right. Like we all said, like, Doge is gonna. He. He's gonna try to employ Doge. He will get in his rocket ship and leave, which essentially he's done and leave wreckage behind, which is what happened to so many of our agencies and just. Just within our federal government. So. So Elon Musk has left Doge and that's failure behind and he keeps on Truckin. I don't even think he thinks about Doge. He takes those headlines and puts him in a birdcage for liner.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. All right, next. Don, you worked for him. How's that case going?

[Don Lemon]

I am not talking about Becky Harris.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

We're interested.

[Don Lemon]

Tell us what I will say. You can say a lot of things about Elon Musk, but I don't think he's a dummy. Right. I think he's a smart man. I believe that in this whole political thing that he's learned the limits of his power. And by learning the limits of his power, he's learned where his power actually is. And I think it's being quieter behind the scenes making better and more innovative cars. And if he just. And rockets or whatever it is, and if he sticks to that, he could have more influence than try than running some department of government efficiency, which never really worked, which actually did not save any money and tarnished him badly. And he really realize that if you're going to be in the business where you're selling a product and you're. And you're someone who is as high profile as him and is the face of the company, then you have to have a good reputation. You have to do good for people rather than taking jobs. You can't take people's jobs and say. And take their money and their livelihood and they have a, you know, a smaller wallet and say, now buy my car. It doesn't really work that way.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. So he's learned his lesson. Brooke, finish up. Culturally.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Yeah. I think. And I think Don's absolutely right. I don't know if he's learned his lesson in the sense that he wants to do good. But the celebrity aspect of where he wanted. He had the. He was hosting snl. He was in every single place. He was on television almost as much as Trump. He was speaking and jumping up and down. The cult of celebrity, he realized, is not where his power is. And so he's taken a giant step back from that and is much more subtle and much more sort of, you know, whether somebody's guiding him, which it really seems it might be somebody. He's got somebody in his ear or he just came upon that himself where the destruction. And maybe he's gone to rehab and the ketamine use is down.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

Okay, Cara, that's the Perfect segue to credit Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway has been saying for years and years, he sells the stock. He stops trusting the company. When the CEO is on the COVID of Vogue, when they're in a fashion photo shoot and they're surrounded by puppies, that's when you sell the stock. That's when you stop believing in the company. Elon Musk had his celebrity phase, then his celebrity political kingmaker, and now, now he's. Whether I'm saying realize, then he has to fall, and he's saying, guess what? I am much better off as the wizard of Oz. And that's what he is. The man behind the curtain.

[Brooke Hammerling]

That's right.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

But he did expose himself. He did expose himself.

[Kara Swisher]

He did. He did. He showed his ass. Yeah. How can we miss if he won't go away to Mars? Anyway, thank you so much, all of you. Let me just read this out. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind and what you think of these fine co hosts. Go to nymag.com pivot submit a question for the show, or call 85551, pivot. Okay, that'. You guys actually were fantastic and fantastic together, and you outclassed Scott Galloway, I have to say, for our first show of the year. And I truly appreciate it, and so does Scott from wherever he is, whatever he is doing. Again, please write in what you think he is doing. You're probably right.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

In 2026, my personal hope is to have a shred of the confidence that Kara Swisher does. Shred.

[Don Lemon]

And the cameos.

[Kara Swisher]

I love myself.

[Brooke Hammerling]

Yeah. Heated rivalry. We're all going with you, baby.

[Stephanie Ruhl]

We're going.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Don Lemon]

All right.

[Kara Swisher]

You're all coming on the set and making a new set. Now be sure to check out the Don Lemon Show. It's amazing. Got to a million YouTube subscribers. Is amazing. The 11th hour with Stephanie Rule. It is the best. I watch it every night and I send pictures to Stephanie. It's the. I have to say, it's the best hour of cable television. I learn a lot. And of course, pop culture Mondays. Brooke is always way ahead of the curve on lots and lots. She was always like. I wrote about that months ago. Anyway, thank you for listening to Pivot. And be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday, hopefully with Scott Galloway. We'll see. I will read us out.

[Don Lemon]

I'm going to the cottage.

[Kara Swisher]

You're going to the cottage. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman. Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited the video. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's Executive producer Podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Happy New Year and you guys. Definitely another POD soon. Thank you so much.