The “Woke” Smithsonian, South Park’s Latest Dig at Trump, and Co-Host Wesley Morris

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary

Episode: The “Woke” Smithsonian, South Park’s Latest Dig at Trump, and Co-Host Wesley Morris
Date: August 22, 2025
Hosts: Kara Swisher (KS) & Wesley Morris (WM)

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Overview

In this episode, Kara Swisher is joined again by acclaimed New York Times critic Wesley Morris, covering for Scott Galloway. The duo dive into the cultural and political nexus: from Trump’s attacks on the Smithsonian and escalating “anti-woke” crusades, to lampooning of Trump’s administration in South Park, the power of pop culture phenomena like Taylor Swift, and a behind-the-scenes perspective on the shifting landscape of American media, museums, and values. The tone is punchy, deeply insightful, and laced with both affection and exasperation for today’s headlines.

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Key Topics and Timestamps

1. Introduction & Cannonball Podcast Chat (01:32–13:09)

• Kara Swisher introduces Wesley Morris, praising his “Cannonball” podcast and his background at the New York Times.
• Naming the Podcast: Wesley shares the story behind the podcast’s name and other rejected titles (e.g., “Parlando")—music, speech, and the verbing of “cannonball.”
• Memorable Exchange:
  • WM (about podcast name): "I wanted to call it Parlando... it's an opera term, to sing in a manner that is recognizable as speech..." (04:06)
• Discussion of podcasting styles and the tradition of culture shows.
• Reflections on summer movie releases, nostalgia, and horror films, like “Weapons” and “Sinners.”

2. Pop Culture Reverie: Patrick Swayze, "And Just Like That" & Representation (13:09–22:28)

• Fond memories of Patrick Swayze and the unique, multi-layered masculinity he brought to his roles.
• Describing the recurring tradition of watching “Roadhouse” (11:47) and how Swayze’s star quality is “swagger, but also a real vulnerability...”
• Praise for Swayze’s “gender spectrum,” cultivating both masculinity and femininity onscreen (12:51).
• Transition into “And Just Like That,” examining its progression, diversity criticisms, and the realism (or lack thereof) of its casting.
  • Notable Quote:
    • WM: “One of the great projects about friendship that we've ever had. I mean, I don't care if we're talking about books, movies, TV..." (15:24)
  • Analysis of post-George Floyd diversity pressures in TV and how “Sex and the City” navigated the shift.
  • Sarita Choudhury’s performance in the revival is praised as “one of the best...on a show.” (18:59)

3. Trump, the Smithsonian, and Historical Revisionism (22:28–32:50)

• Kara introduces Trump’s attack on the Smithsonian and push for “anti-woke” museum curation.
• WM reads from Trump’s 2017 Smithsonian speech (23:16–26:04), contrasting it with his current posture: “I am deeply proud that we now have a museum that honors the millions of African American women and men who built our national heritage...” (25:40)
• Dissection of the revisionist urge—minimizing slavery and recasting American history for ideological gain.
  • WM: “They’re trying to purify... It's propaganda at its most blatant.” (27:31)
• Analysis of the broader effort to “purify” the cultural record, set up D.C. as a test case, and the potential national implications.

4. Culture Wars—The Kennedy Center, Awards, and Symbolism (32:50–37:30)

• The politicizing of the Kennedy Center Honors: KISS, Sylvester Stallone, Gloria Gaynor, George Strait, Michael Crawford—diversity box-checking and cultural messaging.
• Discussion about the possibility of Trump renaming the Center after himself or Melania as an ultimate act of self-aggrandizement.
• WM on the awards process: “I could give you a list of people who have not been Kennedy centered... For a lot of reasons.” (32:36)

5. Social Platforms: White House Joins TikTok (38:38–46:11)

• Trump administration opens a TikTok account, despite the same administration’s legal attempts to ban or force-sale of the app.
• KS: “He called TikTok a national security threat in 2020… then Jeff Yass, a donor, is a big investor—so he flipped.” (41:12)
• Discussion of generational trends: youth disengage from Twitter/X, migrate to Reddit and YouTube.
• Reddit’s resurgence as a trusted information source versus the “heinous stuff” of earlier years.

6. South Park Skewers Trump and the Culture of Outrage (46:11–55:21)

• Latest South Park episode targets Trump, his “bribes” from tech CEOs, his “micro penis,” and the administration’s absurdities.
• Audio clips and breakdown of show’s uncompromising, blunt comedic style.
  • WM: “Their genius is… to be declarative as comedians… the Easter egg is an omelette on that show.” (47:54)
• Debate on the evolution of comedy, what can and cannot be joked about, and how South Park’s fundamental approach hasn't changed while the world around them has.

7. Taylor Swift on the Kelsey Brothers Podcast (56:57–68:04)

• Taylor Swift goes on boyfriend Travis Kelce’s podcast to announce her new album, nearly doubling Rogan/Trump numbers.
• KS: “She can do whatever she wants… She still remains hot.” (57:40)
• Swift’s effect on pop culture, parasocial “accessibility,” and media spectacle.
  • Female viewership of the Kelsey podcast jumps by 600%.
  • The interplay between Taylor, Travis, and Jason Kelsey is dissected, with Swift controlling the focus of the conversation even amid brotherly banter.
• WM: “She seems happy with that. The way she talked about that show was interesting… I have wonder about what these tours are like for the artists.” (61:02)
• Contrasts Swift’s approach in the ERAS tour film (preserving magic) with Beyoncé’s Renaissance tour documentary (mythologizing work).

8. Predictions & Oscar Talk: Adam Sandler (69:40–73:52)

• WM predicts: Adam Sandler will finally be Oscar-nominated, possibly with the Noah Baumbach film due late this year.
  • “[Directors] are trying to win this man an Oscar.” (69:55)
  • KS: “You predict nomination. Let’s not go crazy.” (72:47)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Wesley on South Park:
  “I would consider [it] part of the culture war era... Their genius is to just name the thing... You don't need to be visually literate or culturally literate. The Easter egg is an omelette on that show.” (47:54–48:53)

• Kara on Diversity in TV:
  “Did anybody say Tony Soprano needs a black friend?” (17:33)

• Wesley as Critic on Trump’s Museum Attack:
  “They’re trying to purify... It's propaganda at its most blatant.” (27:31)

• Kara on Taylor Swift’s cultural dominance:
  “She can do whatever she wants… She still remains hot.” (57:41)

• Wesley on Taylor Swift’s charisma:
  “You can’t stop watching her... And I don't know why that is. Right. And so wherever she appears... it was a completely pleasurable experience watching it in a way that was very satisfying.” (60:20)

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Tone and Style

The episode is marked by candid critique, self-awareness, and a knowing humor:

• Kara is incisive, direct, and wry.
• Wesley brings deep cultural insight, rapid-fire references, and a critic’s balance between skepticism and delight.

Lively and personal, the episode weaves together cultural and political analysis, inviting listeners to reflect on the broader meanings of pop phenomena, political overreach, and the power of media to shape (or sanitize) collective memory.

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In Summary

This episode of Pivot is a rich, multi-layered sweep through contemporary American culture and politics, unified by the theme of “who gets to tell the story”—whether it’s the Smithsonian, South Park, the Kennedy Center, or Taylor Swift. The main takeaways: the enduring power of honest cultural critique, the dangers of historical revisionism, and the ever-evolving, often surprising ways in which media both reflects and warps our reality.

Transcript

[A]

Hey everybody, it's Andy Roddick, host of Serve podcast for your fix on all things tennis. The US Open's coming up and we're covering it on our show. Can someone knock off Algoraz and Sinner? Can Coco Gauff win her second US Open title? Can Swiatek win her second Grand Slam title in a row? Can Sabalenka break through and win her Grand Slam in 2025? You can watch our coverage of the U.S. open on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast brought to you in part by Amazon Prime. @blinds.com it's not just about window treatments. It's about you. Your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. [e-mail] the only thing we treat better than Windows is. Visit blinds.com now for up to 40% off site wide plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply. How do we AI proof our jobs? How do we fix the deficit? How do we get our political system working again? I'm Henry Blodgett and I'm launching a new podcast called Solutions where every week I'll talk to an innovative enterprising expert to cut through the doom and focus on how to build a better world. Follow Solutions with Henry Blodgett wherever you get your podcasts. The first episode will be out Monday, August 18th. Wait, there's a Claude.

[B]

Claude, yes. Anthropic.

[A]

Who's Claude?

[B]

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher and August rolls on. Welcome back to Scot Free August. Do you like that? Do you like our st? Okay, Scott is still. Before I introduce you, yes, Scott is still away and I know he misses me terribly. He's been posting a lot, pretending he's still on the show, but pretty much he's gone and he's sitting on the beach wishing because there's so much news. But in his place once again, I have yet another amazing co host. He's a critic at large for the New York Times and two time Pulitzer Prize winner, which Scott will never win. And the host of the Times brand new podcast, Cannonball. It's Wesley Morris.

[A]

I can't believe this is happening to Scott again.

[B]

I mean week, day after day. It's another fantastic person who is so more well qualified to be my partner than other people. So I'm thrilled that you are here. Let me just explain what your podcast is all about. And you had a very popular podcast. Obviously, the New York Times is glowing up the whole podcast division with videos and this and that. So talk about where the name Cannonball came from and talk a little bit about your podcasting history. Cause it's been terrific, actually.

[A]

Thank you. Well, I, you know, Jay Woram and I had this show called Still Processing. It was, you know, one of the happiest things I've ever been involved with. And now I'm doing this other culture show. And, I mean, mostly it's. It's me sort of thinking through, you know, art, TV shows, movies, books, sports. I mean, anything that I'm kind of curious about and trying to make these connections between one thing to another thing. Usually, you know, so far, it's been me talking to other people about, like, what's coming up for them as I'm trying to work out my stuff with the other person. And the name. You know, I wanted to call this show some other things. Tell me.

[B]

Tell me the name you wanted. I know how the New York Times is about names. I shoved mine through so hard.

[A]

Did you have to fight to get Sway called? Sway?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Really? You know what? I didn't care. I refused to do it without the name. But what was the name you wanted? Tell me the name.

[A]

I wanted to call it Parlando.

[B]

Prolando.

[A]

Parlando.

[B]

Par. I love that.

[A]

Which, you know, for our musicologist friends.

[B]

You know, explain that.

[A]

It's essentially. It's an opera term, and it essentially means to sing in a manner that is recognizable as speech, essentially. But there's also in. There's a great tradition of parlando and pop music. We just don't really call it that. But, you know, some of your favorite singers are parlay. I don't know, Kara. I don't want to. I don't want to. Like, I don't want to accuse you of being a Leonard Cohen fan.

[B]

Oh, yeah, no, no. They talk. Yeah.

[A]

Or a Grace Jones fan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I wanted to call the show that because I can't sing, but I. I can talk.

[B]

You can. Parlando. It could have been a verb.

[A]

But, you know, what's great about Cannonball is that I have discovered that I have been using it at people when they come on both, you know, as a verb, like, we cannonballed. Or, you know, the back and forth to get them to come on the show. Like, I Can't wait to cannonball with you.

[B]

Oh, good. So you're going to make it into something.

[A]

I mean, it already is a verb, right?

[B]

That is how we're using it all happen. Yeah. I mean, like there's. You're in a pool and you do a cannonball.

[A]

Dingity ding.

[B]

Yeah. There's a song. Cannonball. Do you play that on the show? That's a terrible song. I believe.

[A]

No, I think that probably costs $500,000. I would love to Kim give Kim deal that money, but I don't think the near. I mean, we have a great theme song. I love our theme song. A guy named Justin Ellington did it. It's wonderful. It is so not Cannonball like by the. By the Breeders, but it's something. It's something as good as far as I'm concerned. You don't like Cannonball, the song. I didn't want to let that sit.

[B]

I don't love the Cannonball. I don't know, I just. I. It reminds me of my youth, I guess. I don't know. I gotta listen to it again. I don't know. Whenever I hear it, I'm like, ugh. Like, it's not the song. It's not the song. It's something that happened during the song. I don't know. Maybe teenage.

[A]

We gotta recover this memory. This is 1993. I want to say Last Splash is like 93, 94.

[B]

94. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I'm going to lean on my. I'm going to lean on my arm for this one and just. I want to recover the memory, though, because it really. You know, there are these cultural artifacts, artifacts that are. You can't quite. You don't. There are things where, like, you know exactly why you feel the way you feel about it. But then there are these other things that they're not. They're not Proustian. Like, I don't. Well, I can't save in your case if this is. Is or is not a pristine experience.

[B]

But it's not one of the high ones. I mean, Landslide. Forget it. That's the game, that Landslide. That one I listen to and weep.

[A]

But do you know why?

[B]

I had a crush on a friend of mine and I was gay and I was. I listened to it a lot. I just. I can't believe I'm telling you this, but that's what happened.

[A]

I think. I think that that's. That's an important one. But. But you can identify why Landslide is a song. You love Cannonball being a song.

[B]

You don't like, let's see, 94. What was it. What was I doing in 1994? God, it was so long.

[A]

If you can't remember what was going on, then isn't.

[B]

That's another DC I was.

[A]

I thought I was going to ask if you were in D.C. that's.

[B]

I was. I was at the Washington Post. I was. I was. I just become a reporter, you know, I was Business section. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it's gotta be a relationship.

[A]

I mean.

[B]

I mean, they're all relationship.

[A]

Were you going to bars? Were you going out?

[B]

No, I'm not a bar person. I'm not. That's the whole thing, you know. You know, my wife Amanda, she loves a bar.

[A]

I mean, you know, Amanda loves.

[B]

She loves to dance. I don't like to dance. I know.

[A]

Wait, you're not a dancer?

[B]

I'm not. Just like my son and Amanda always joke. One of my sons and Amanda always joke that I don't like swimming, I don't like dancing. I don't like bars.

[A]

Well, were you missing out in D.C. because D.C. strikes me as having, like, some great. Like having had, anyway, some great gay bars.

[B]

Yes, it did. It did. It did. There still are a couple there, except now, like, it's populated by the government.

[A]

Yeah, I was gonna say they're. They really. Can we talk about that? Why are they hanging out at the gay bars?

[B]

I mean, because they're.

[A]

I mean.

[B]

Listen, Cara, it's always been an issue anyway. All right. We're gonna get to a lot of things anyway. Cannonball. So you talked to Kevin, who's the last person you talked to in Cann.

[A]

That the public can hear? It's probably Vincent Cunningham. He and I talked about the new Spike Lee movie, Highest to Lowest. That. That happened this week. And then next week is going to be a conversation with me and Sam Anderson talking about old summer movies. I. Well, you know, I had this feeling that this summer was going to be really dry. And it was, in fact, dry. And, you know, it was the usual thing that happens now with our summers. You get a lot of sequels, a lot of, you know, eighth editions of something. But, you know, my favorite movie from this summer is Weapons. I don't know if you've seen this movie yet.

[B]

I can't see it. It's scary. I don't like Karen.

[A]

You gotta just, like.

[B]

That's another thing I can't do. Really, I can't. I know, I know. It's like Sinners. I finally went to Sinners. I did. I thought it was scary and then it was fantastic.

[A]

This is scarier than sinners to me.

[B]

I know. Exactly. And the kid. This guy is a very gifted filmmaker.

[A]

It's very clear.

[B]

It's incredible. But the arms with the kids. Yeah, I mean, I just don't like that. I don't know why that upset me and I don't want to see it and I don't want it. I've seen it in this posters and I don't want to see it in my head. Like I was just in my town. I was driving through. It was on Long island doing something which the New York Post has reported about. But really they were filming the Devil Wears Prada too out there. I won't say more.

[A]

Nicket has just been sold.

[B]

All right, so very minor situation. So I grew up there and there was a movie theater that used to be there in Rosslyn harbor and Rosslyn Village. And I saw Tales from the Crypt there when I was a kid with my brother. He dragged me on a rainy day. I had a turkey sandwich in my pocket, which by the way stayed there for too long later. But it was from the Clock Tower restaurant and that I did not like seeing that movie. That upset me. There was a Santa that was evil in it. I remember that movie. And I was with my brother in an old movie theater and I never forgive him for taking me to. So I don't see horror movies very much since then. Since then. I saw Halloween once and I did not appreciate it even though I very much like Jamie Lee Curtis.

[A]

Yeah, I mean Halloween's a. That's a no brainer in terms of just like a really visceral movie going experience. You had a bad what?

[B]

Yes. Well, a guy grabbed my legs during the scary scene behind me because he had seen it before and I have a bad experience as a Holly. So this one looks beautifully done. Horror movies. That's why I imagine it would stick with me. Very good.

[A]

It's very good. Anyway, the point of bringing that up.

[B]

Weapons.

[A]

Weapons is the only, like, it's the only thing. It's one of the few things this summer based on an original screenplay. And I.

[B]

So when Sinners sort of bled into summer. Right.

[A]

The conversation around it did.

[B]

And I.

[A]

And I think, you know, part of the reason Sam and I wanted to talk about old movies is because we didn't think we were going to get any good new ones this summer. Turns out that is basically true. I mean we got weapons and like some residual Sinners conversation because it arrived. I don't know, onto one of these streaming platforms, probably hbo. Hbo, Max. Which I just. I'm just saying. Hbo. I don't know what we're doing.

[B]

You do whatever you want because they'll change it next week. What was your favorite old movie?

[A]

Old movie? I mean, well, I mean, the thing that Sam Anderson and I talk about is Ghost, but in Total Recall. Those are our two movies.

[B]

But I love that movie.

[A]

That's a great. That's the summer of 1990.

[B]

Yeah. You know what the Swishers watch every year here on the summer vacation? I'm on a phone. Is. It's Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

It was so good to hold up.

[A]

Why. Why?

[B]

That movie might have been a son. Because we love it because there's so many great lines in it. Go watch it, Wesley.

[A]

I mean, I've.

[B]

Your life will be changed.

[A]

My life has already been changed by Patrick Swayze. I mean, many times. I mean.

[B]

Well, Ghost was amazing. I just love Patrick Swayze. I really do. I don't know why. Dance. You know, the dancing movie.

[A]

He's a dirty Dancing.

[B]

Dirty Dancing.

[A]

He's a strange movie star that we'll never get again because, you know, he's not really good at anything.

[B]

No, but he's a good d. That's not true. He's a beautiful dancer.

[A]

That's true. Well, I mean, he's good. He's good enough for the movies.

[B]

Good dancer.

[A]

But what I would say is, like, the thing that's great about Patrick Swayze as a. As a person on camera is he's got all the intangible things, right? I mean, handsomeness, but also a little swagger, but like a real vulnerability or an access.

[B]

He's feminine. He's got a femininity to him.

[A]

And I think that there's that. That conflation of. Of. Of several different. Like, his gender spectrum is bright and. And functioning simultaneously with every performance.

[B]

He's just a sweetheart. I just think he's.

[A]

And he seems like a kind person. Yes.

[B]

Yes, he does. And he's always great. We're gonna be nice until it's time not to be nice.

[A]

Yeah. Point Break.

[B]

No, that was. That. That was Roadhouse. Point Break was another one. He's amazing in.

[A]

I mean. Oh, I thought. Oh, I forgot. I can't quote Roadhouse the way I can quote Roadhouse.

[B]

That's correct. And I. We sit around and we insult the Jake Gyllenhaal version.

[A]

I. I feel bad for the remade Roadhouse. I don't know why they did it. I. I'm a big Jake Gyllenhaal person. I don't like him doing movie star karaoke. Like the idea of him doing Patrick Swayze and Pat and Harrison Ford in the same year, essentially, I didn't like it. But I mean, because he's his own thing, right? Like, I don't think that he needs to.

[B]

I'm not a fan. I love that he was doing that movie this summer that Taylor Swift had her enormous tour because it was like, yeah, here he was in sad little roadhouse and she was billionaires selling out stadiums.

[A]

Well, I mean, I don't want to skip ahead or anything, but I did find that part of that podcast conversation that she had with the Kelsey brothers to be really fascinating when she's like, my favorite part of that entire re recording Odyssey was getting to do her 10 minute version of All Too well, which allegedly, you know, is about the person we were just discussing.

[B]

Of course it is. We're gonna get to her too. All right, look, look, we got so Kenan Wallace. I'm not trying to rush us, okay? You're rush us. You're rush. You're not rushing us. We got lots of things to talk about. We've been talking talk just a little bit. This week you're talking about Lee's latest movie. Last week you were talking about the series finale. Just like that.

[A]

Listen, did you watch that show?

[B]

Hello? I love Sarah Jessica Parker. I don't. I'm not of the haters. I mean, I can see why people hate watch it, but I love it was so fuck you. I love a fuck you. Like to everybody. I love it. The poop. Like, oh my God, they really did that. And then her last thing was like, fuck you. I'm gonna dance away in my thing. Did you like it or not? You probably hate watched it.

[A]

No, I love the show, okay?

[B]

I love the show.

[A]

I really think it's one of the great projects about friendship that we've ever had. I mean, I don't care if we're talking about books, movies, tv. I mean, it's one of the great works of friendship. And all the vicissitudes of being close to people for a long time.

[B]

Well, we have to forgive them for Che. Che was a bad character.

[A]

Of course, of course, of course.

[B]

But that's okay.

[A]

It's okay.

[B]

Can I give you a premise? Remember when they got into trouble for not being diverse enough? There's lots of shows of dudes, white dudes, black dudes, all kinds of dudes kind of thing where there's never diversity among them. Right. This show got slapped for it in a way that other shows don't. And I thought it was really interesting as I watched it, I was trying to think of a popular show that didn't really try very hard. That was a long. The thing is, it was on forever. I guess that's because it was so long.

[A]

98 to, you know, now more or less. Right.

[B]

As much as I hate to say it, this is probably what. But a lot of. If the people they're depicting their lives would have been like this. So they were kind of depicting the lives. They wouldn't have had a lot of diverse friends necessarily. Unless, you know, just unless they sort of, you know, Venn diagrammed into fashion, I guess. Right. Which is great.

[A]

But no, I, I agree with you. I mean, that's. I don't want. If this is the. If I live in New York City, I go to restaurants all the time. And you know what I see a lot of the time when I go out is four white ladies just yucking it up.

[B]

Yucking it up.

[A]

And I think I didn't need that to be the case if that wasn't the case from the beginning.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I think the amazing sort of one of the cool things about the. And just like that project was it was going to take a different risk. Right. It was going to absorb the criticism of the show not being, quote, diverse enough, which nobody. I mean, did anybody say Tony Soprano needs a black friend?

[B]

That's what I was thinking of. I was like, there were no black people. Well, no, no, never.

[A]

I mean, it just. I mean, there were. There were some, but they, they weren't, they weren't major characters. I mean, they were like ancillary. You'd get an episode where Christopher. Christopher was hanging out with some Negroes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's what would happen. But I think that, you know, the idea that these women would come back, you know, minus Samantha, and be put into a post George Floyd, United States. What would it then mean for them to be able to stay on hbo, for one thing, and during this period? But also what would be realistic. What would be a realistic experience for them as women who were realizing that the world had changed and that they, they were part of the problem in some way without actually saying, hey, we're part of the problem. Right. Like Charlotte goes on. Like Charlotte, Carrie and Miranda go on these respective crusades to find some non white people.

[B]

So the ones that you have were. Would made sense. Would have maybe happened, right? Yes.

[A]

It didn't feel Forced to me.

[B]

Yes. It didn't feel. When they got past Che, it didn't feel forced because I thought the woman who played the real estate agent was amazing. And then the filmmaker.

[A]

Oh, Sarita Chowdhury.

[B]

Amazing. Amazing.

[A]

That is one of the best performances on a show. I love her that I can think of. I mean, I, with all due respect to, you know, I bow down Kim Cattrall, but this is just like a deeper version of the same character to me.

[B]

And I believe I've met that person.

[A]

I've met that person.

[B]

I've met real estate lady who's like a killer.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And the same thing.

[A]

Lisa Nicole. Ari Parker. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Amazing. I've met that woman. I've met that woman.

[A]

I know her.

[B]

And she would have hung out with them anyway. I love that show. And let me just say I love Sarah Jessica Parker. I know her a little bit, and she's actually a fan of Pivot. She may be listening to this. I think she has delivered more entertainment. I always think of who delivers more entertainment in their lifetime, and she certainly has in lots of roles.

[A]

But I actually think that what you're identifying is something interesting about her, which is that, you know, we haven't really. I don't know, I have not experienced, like, a useful or enlightening appreciation of what it is that she did both as Carrie and what she. What kind of entertainer she's been all this time. I think that there's something. One of the things I loved and sometimes cringed at but, like, loved the nerve of in her work as Carrie is that, you know, Carrie Bradshaw was somebody who was very present to the moment in the late 90s and early 2000s. Right. She kind of had a really great beaker white B girl energy. And she. There was like a little hip hop dimension to her glamour and the way that she would both incorporate, like, black slang and like, borscht belt comedy into her, like, throwaway line deliveries. I always thought that was great. The way she could screw her face up was, you know, that's like 1930s, 1940s screwball. I just think that that performance is very, very good. And it got to the. To the end and it got better. It got even better.

[B]

Four episodes were amazing.

[A]

Yes, I agree.

[B]

I think she's great. I would give her kudos. She was also in a movie that was about a family where she was sort of the girlfriend that nobody liked.

[A]

Oh, was that the. That was home. Was it not Home for the holidays?

[B]

No, it was like that.

[A]

Oh, Family stone. The knockoff home for the holidays. Yeah.

[B]

Yes. But I love that movie. Cause I loved her performance in it because she was sort of this difficult woman and she didn't hide it and her difficulty and then she falls in love with the other brother, et cetera. But I loved her in that movie. I appreciated her after that part of.

[A]

That great story stretch that she had in the movies. Because of the show. Right. I mean, if you can remember this, Kara, her, like, early 90s version of her. The early 90s version of herself. I don't know if you remember this, but there was this movie with Bruce Willis as some kind of, like, river cop, like Postal Guard Pittsburgh called It's Striking Distance. And Sarah Jessica Parker is his partner in that movie. His cop partner, I believe. Wore a uniform and everything.

[B]

Yeah, that's like when Meryl Streep drove a boat.

[A]

Remember the River Wild. Who could forget?

[B]

May I say she's the classiest dame I've ever met. I won't say how. Anyway, President Trump is. We're moving on. President Trump is accusing.

[A]

We can't go from Meryl Streep to President Trump.

[B]

We are, because, listen, because historically speaking, she's been in many history movies. That's why President Trump is accusing Smithsonian of focusing too much, unquote, how bad slavery was and not enough on the brightness of America. Trump sent a post on Truth Social. He's directed his attorneys to go through the museums and start the same process done with universities across the country. He also noted the country cannot be woke because woke is broke. The comments come a week after the White House announced a sweeping review of the Smithsonian. Museums are given 120 days to change content the Trump administration finds problematic in tone, historical framing and alignment with American ideals. I mean, please just go on. Please just pontificate on what is happening here, how bad slavery was here.

[A]

Can I start here? I want to take you back to February 24th. Sorry. February 21st, 2017. This is like a month after the inauguration. And I mean, because this is what I've been thinking about, this man, a month after the inauguration, gets a tour of the relatively still new Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture, which. Which we. Which we at my house call the Blacksonian. The president gets a tour of this museum from Lonnie Bunch, the man who is now in charge of the whole Smithsonian system and is under fire to gladden it up. Up. He. President Trump gives this speech. I. I have the entire speech. I'm not going to read all of it, but, Cara, I'm gonna. I'm gonna just like, read some of it because I don't recog this person. This person is a different person. I am very proud of Lonnie Bunch. The work and the love that he has done in his heart and what. And for what he's done is. I always need to talk. He's like, this is not a written speech. I. I always need to talk to you. I always need to talk about your. You need. Need enthus, you need really love for anything. You. You do it successfully and. Lonnie, where are you? Come on, Lonnie. I'll skip ahead then. He thanks David Rubenstein, who he just fired from the Kennedy Center. It's a privilege to be here today. This museum is so. Is a beautiful tribute to so many American heroes. Heroes like Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, Rosa Parks, the Greensboro students, the students who had a sit in a. At a. At a Wall Woolworth in Greenboro, North Carolina, the African American Medal of Honor recipients, among so many other really incredible heroes. It's amazing to see. I went to EM Dash. We did a pretty comprehensive tour, but not comprehensive enough, Cara. Not comprehensive enough. So, Lonnie, I'll be back. I told you that because I could stay here for a lot longer. Believe me, it's really incredible. I am deeply proud. I am deeply proud that we now have a museum that honors the millions of African American men and women who built our national heritage, especially when it comes to faith, culture, and the unbreakable American spirit. My wife was here last week and took a tour, and it was something that she still is talking about. Ivanka is here right now. Hi, Ivanka. And it is really very special. It's something that, frankly, if you want to know the truth, it's doing so well that everybody's talking about it.

[B]

Incredible. Well, he was.

[A]

You tell me what's happening.

[B]

Because he had people around him who were like, this is a good thing. And, you know, look, I'm sorry. I think Donald Trump's been a racist since.

[A]

Oh, come on. I mean, who are we talking about?

[B]

Forever? Like, never not been a racist. And so this is what's happened between age, power and not being stopped by someone.

[A]

Not deliberately. Governor on it. Yes, yes.

[B]

He now is showing you exactly who he is. Like, slavery is like, why is it too much on how bad slavery was? There is not a number of how bad it was. Right. There is not a number high enough to do it. But I think he just was told what to do there. And I hate to say it, he.

[A]

Had Ivanka there, you mean on February 21, February 17, 2020 or 2020.

[B]

He had people who were like, February was bad. Let's stick with slavery was bad on this one. Terrible. The worst thing ever. And the original sin, whatever. There's no there' original sins. But.

[A]

Well, he wants them all gone, so.

[B]

All gone. So what do you. How do you. What do you think about these attempts? And do you think they're. You know, he just will not give up on this woke thing, which is nuts. And they had. There was a bunch of interviews in front of the museum and they showed people what he said, like, all kinds of people. Not just like what you'd imagine be angry about it, but they were like, what, what, what? Like talk about this and what they're trying to do here from a cultural.

[A]

Point of view view, they're trying to purify. They're trying to create some idea of a, of. Of a thing that, you know, has been being attempted for 400 years, right?

[B]

Like, it, like it's not a new.

[A]

Thing, a racially purified. Well, it's just never been achieved, right? There's never been. There's. I mean, not even Woodrow Wilson has gone as far as Trump is trying to go. And Wood Wilson was. Was, you know, all but a KKK member. I think that this is propaganda at its. At its. I mean, most blatant, right? This is the beginning of something, right? I mean, if you look at the prongs that are. That are laid out on this table, essentially holding it up, you've got the National Guard down the street, probably around the museums right now. Right, Exactly.

[B]

You know, those black people act up a lot. Like that's where they would put the National Guard. Like idiots, like where no crime is taking place. But we'll get into that, right?

[A]

But where, like in a city where, you know, if you ask the average D.C. resident, like, could. Could things be a little better from the standpoint of public safety? They would say yes. But do I think the solution to that is the National Guard? No, it's housing. You know, it's get. Let people go to sleep. I mean, this is my number one thing about, like, like what we call crime and mental health situations. I think a lot of this stuff is just. I think. I think stress and not having a place to actually reset your brain every night contributes to what we don't. We probably wouldn't even qualify certain aspects of urban crime as mental illness because we been culturally conditioned to think of it as gang warfare, but. And the people suck but no, it's the systemic conditions that have led people to behave this way. Now I'm not trying. Whatever. This is a whole other, this is.

[B]

A whole other aspect of this conversation, including sea slavery.

[A]

Right, right. But I think that the, the point here is that something is, something is being gotten underway essentially. Right. And I think, think purifying the story of American history is part of it. I think creating an environment in which they can use Washington D.C. as a test case for how this might go once you start rolling it out in Detroit, Chicago, Philadelphia.

[B]

I mean, he's describing cities as blood soaked and cesspools. No, they're not. I have raised children in D.C. and San Francisco and everything.

[A]

You know, Kara, I'm actually curious about this because. Because I think it only takes one upset white woman to have an experience that she didn't like and for that to reach somebody on the staff of this administration or to reach him. Right.

[B]

Well, it was in this case it was big balls. Right. Big balls got beat up on 14th street, which is not as, you know, it's crazy on Saturday night. And as I lived over there and I lived a block away and it's a city. I don't know what to say. It's a city. All cities have their issues. And you, you don't want to minimize crime, but the, the idea of maximizing it and treating it, it's almost pornographic in the way they're maximizing it. Like bloodbath, ongoing. This, it's like just not true.

[A]

Yeah, it's, it does not correspond with the reality that most people are living. But I will say that, I mean, I can't speak to its effectiveness. I think what you're telling me about when people are like man on the street ing responses to the news that he wants to like remove slavery from a museum that you know, is telling the story from slavery, the glorious things that African Americans have contributed to this country and how you can't. If you, you remove slavery and we're not America anymore.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Like who are we?

[B]

They will be removing the glorious things. Just so you know, it's not just, it's not just slavery was bad, but white people did the most things. I mean, I think that's what's really what's happening here. I mean, although talk a little bit about the Kennedy Center Honors. Cause it goes there too. Speaking of cultural impacts, it includes Kiss, Sylvester Stallone and Gloria Gaynor, the country music. George Strait, good country music star. I'm sorry, I mean, no, I mean also Stallone. I'M not against Stallone, even though I think he's kind of heinous in many ways. I think he's culturally relevant in some fashion. Talk a little bit about these honors. What do they say?

[A]

Well, it's funny. I'm gonna do an episode about these five people and this particular situation.

[B]

Kiss to astrosaut and Glory Gaynor, George Strange.

[A]

Michael Crawford.

[B]

Is Crawford, again, important Broadway star? No question.

[A]

Just not getting like, under ordinary circumstances. Is Michael Crawford, like. Can I give you a list of people who are. Who have not been Kennedy centered?

[B]

Yes, I get it. You start with has founder McDonald gotten one yet?

[A]

I mean. No, she is not. Has Madonna. I mean, you know, I mean, I just. There's so many people, like, the Democrats.

[B]

Aren'T giving it to Madonna either. But go, but go ahead.

[A]

I mean, but somebody on the board at some point would just be like, listen. And I think it's kind of cool that Madonna hasn't gotten it because it's kind of. It's sort of a badge of honor. But the idea that Julia Roberts is inducting George Clooney X number of years ago and she hasn't been Kennedy center, you know, I mean, Glenn Close. I mean, there's just like a long list of people who have not been. Who've not gotten it, but here we are. Right? But I actually think that, you know, Sylvester Stallone and George Strait, those are no brainers to me.

[B]

Yeah, I agree.

[A]

That's. That's like, that's easy. That's. That's not hard. Gloria Gaynor. I don't know what that is. That. I mean, listen, there's a part of me. There's a part of me that's like, I don't know, still a little DEI left in this administration.

[B]

They needed to find some. A person of color who would say yes. I mean, what they get.

[A]

But even they still feel a kind of pressure to acknowledge that even though they're letting all these Africaners in the country under victimization statutes of some kind.

[B]

We gotta find one.

[A]

We gotta find one.

[B]

Are you gonna go? I used to cover the Kennedy Center Honors for the Washington Post. Just so you know, when I was a younger, speaking of my time, that was my job. One of the jobs in the style section. I have to say it was a ball because it was, it was, it's fun. I've been Trump's hosting, which could be.

[A]

I mean, his hosting for now. I don't know how that's gonna go. Can you imagine? Like, what are the rehearsals? What doing you Are for Carol going to get.

[B]

Who are they going to get?

[A]

Stop for one second.

[B]

What? I'm sorry.

[A]

This man is going to have to go to rehearsals.

[B]

I know, I know, but he loves that. He doesn't want to rehearse. He's just going to extemporaneously talk about how slavery wasn't that bad.

[A]

I mean, and broadcast it live on cbs, which is also what they want to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, typically for anybody who doesn't know, I mean, this, this is a. This is a ceremony that happens a month before anybody in the public gets disputed. See it.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

They have a month to, like, make a television show out of this live event.

[B]

Right, right. That's right.

[A]

You can't, bro. I mean, you could broadcast it live. If everybody's on their P's and Q's, it's key.

[B]

It will be broadcast live. Stop it. You know, I mean, in today's. What. Whatever CBS does in their. In their behaviors, it doesn't matter. Are you gonna go? You need to go.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

I need you.

[A]

Are you assigning me?

[B]

I'm assigning you to go and do a show about it. You need to go.

[A]

I am gonna do an episode about the nominees and like, like the, The. The rightness and wrongness of. Of having the president choose them. But I guess. I don't know. I could try. I could. That's, like. I'll. I'm going to think about that because you're right. Maybe it would be worth it.

[B]

But he's trying to culturally take over. This old, old agent.

[A]

He's going to rename it after him. He's going to rename the center after him. He's already on his way to naming the opera house after Melania, the Trump Center.

[B]

No, that's not going to work.

[A]

I've been listening to you talk about this man for years. You were one of the smartest people on this person. I think that you understand what I think you understand him. You're one of the people who understands him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's because my mother is Trump. But go ahead.

[A]

I know. I mean, I think that. That I think the people who have the biggest insights into him understand him as a family member. Right?

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

But I also feel like, you know, it's funny because I feel lucky because I felt like, you know, you know, at my house, it was pictures of John Kennedy, John F. Kennedy and Martin Luther King. That was who my grandmother and her sisters had around the house.

[B]

My mother liked Jackie's outfits But that's different.

[A]

But I think that there is. I just am curious about, you know, he's like a stopped clock in some ways. So that when he says, like, things that the Kennedy, like, there aren't good shows at the Kennedy Center. It's not true, but they would. I mean, some of the things didn't work right. Not everything was great that. That went on there. I mean, in terms of, like, the quality of the thing, not morally bad.

[B]

There had been, There had been years ago. I saw when Audrey McDonald, her first show masterclass was Caldwell.

[A]

You saw the original masterclass?

[B]

I saw it six times. She was amazing.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And I saw Spalding Gray there doing his show was amazing there. And one of his shows. And so there used to be a lot more interesting things there. And then it just became like.

[A]

But the fact of the matter is, the point is, like, the, the, the, like great people who made that place an exciting place to go do anything. I've gone like Ben Folds Split. One of my favorite, like, performers. Ben Folds, I love him. He's out. Renee Fleming hit the road, and now he's taken over the board. I don't, I don't know. I, I truly.

[B]

David Rubenstein.

[A]

Well, you know, the, about this whole Kennedy center thing is. I don't know if you caught this, but when he gave that press conference talking about, like, how bad it was and talking about how he was going to take over, like he was going to host the show, he said, I want one of the. I wanted one of these. I wanted.

[B]

He wanted an honor. He does. He wants everything. He wants a Nobel Prize.

[A]

I waited and waited and waited, and I said, the hell with it. I'll become chairman. I'll give myself an honor. Maybe next year we'll honor Trump. Yep, that's what he said.

[B]

We probably will have to. Although I would enjoy what the fuck. I say yes, because I just want to see the whole horrible thing. All right, we have to go on a quick break. When you come back, the White House joins TikTok.

[A]

Support for the show is brought to you by CVS Caremark. Listeners of the show are not strangers to a good argument, or maybe we should call it, call it some gentle disagreement. But one thing most people wouldn't argue about is that costs are rising on. It feels like everything, including prescription drugs. That's why CVS Caremark works to find the most affordable prescription prices for plan sponsors and their members. Even as prescription prices continue to rise. Overall, CVS Caremark members, on average spend $10.50 for a 30 day supply of their medications. Interested in more affordable care for your members? Go to cmk.com to learn how we help you provide the affordability, support and access your members need.

[B]

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[A]

Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to outdo your holiday, your hammocking and your pooling. We were made to help organize the competition. Expedia made to travel.

[B]

Wesley, we're back. TikTok just got a new user. The White House the Trump administration launched an official account this week despite the fact that a federal law requires TikTok to be sold or banned, though Trump keeps extending the deadline illegally. By the way, the new White House account posted several videos, including one in which Trump says I am your voice. Posts were quickly flooded with spam and negative comments, many referencing the Epstein files. Trump is reportedly still working on a deal for U.S. investors to buy TikTok from its parent company, ByteDance. Probably Larry Ellison will be involved in that. The latest deadline for the ban expires in mid September. Talk about him using TikTok. And years ago, just so people don't know, he called TikTok a national security threat in 2020 and tried to ban it Back then, Then he shifted when one of his biggest donors, he realized was one of a. Was one of the biggest investors in it. Jeff Yass. So any thoughts on them doing this?

[A]

You know, I, I gotta be honest. Well, first of all, I would have just assumed that the White House had already had a TikTok account before, before this guy got back into office. Not that Biden would have or anything, but there would have been some like, There would have been some like, young person in the Biden administration who's like, hey, Uncle Joe.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, pretty good. They had a pretty good social media group there. Yeah, I mean, thought they do.

[A]

So I'm surprised by that. But I also, I mean, I this as a story. I know that I'm supposed to be disturbed and upset by the idea of simultaneously the national security threat being addressed, you know, legitimately. You got to find somebody else to do this. Can't let the Chinese government involved in, you know, our private business. I think the ship is sailed. I don't know about you. If, if, if, if you were on it, they got it. I think it's a wrap. It's how many like every Amer. Like, are they. Are there new Tik Tok users besides the White House?

[B]

Yeah. No, I agree. Tik Toks. That's what I always thought. Decline.

[A]

They don't need anything else.

[B]

They don't. I just think like most of these media things, they'll go up and down and TikTok's not on the ascension necessarily. I don't know what the new thing will be. Probably YouTube in many ways.

[A]

How do YouTube knew how like in terms of growth.

[B]

I mean, people, you. Growth. Yeah. When you look at the growth, I think they've been. They're fine. They're sort of baked in threads is actually growing bigger than Hex right now, which is really interesting. They're reaching the same daily users. I think Blue sky is doing fine. Well, I think, I think what's happening is everything's gotten dissipated in terms of social media and then so there's just more.

[A]

There are more options, right?

[B]

Yeah. Depending on what. Or people not using it as much. My kids use Reddit. That's it. YouTube and Reddit, that's the whole thing.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

That's the entire entire. They don't participate. I've noticed I don't use social media as much.

[A]

I am having a love affair with Reddit.

[B]

Reddit is great, actually.

[A]

I, I, you know, I now I'd sort of been led to. Well, you know what's interesting is that Google sort of is giving me more Reddit threads threads in my searches than I had ever been getting.

[B]

Interesting. Are you still using Google for search?

[A]

Yeah, I'm not a, I'm in a relationship with a. I, I, I'm not even going to take that as shade, Cara.

[B]

I, you're in Chat GPT. I bet you do.

[A]

No, I'm not.

[B]

No, you don't.

[A]

But, you know, I'm probably going to get there because I'm in a relationship with a man who is, you know, I love a man who loves some Chat GPT. Oh, well, certain people do, but he is really good at it. And I'm learning that you can't treat ChatGPT like some, any old Google search. You can't.

[B]

It's not you can't, it's a relationship.

[A]

Get cheap with Chat GPT. You gotta whine and die in Chat GPT.

[B]

The prompt.

[A]

Yes. You gotta talk to it. You gotta make love to Chat GPT. You know, you gotta really, like, give it what it wants if you like. It's like, you know what? Ain't nothing going on but the rent, you know, Use what you got to get what you want. I just, you gotta, you gotta give Chat GPT what it needs, you know?

[B]

Yeah. Do, does he step out with any other.

[A]

I mean, he, he's tried everything over to Claude. Wait, there's a Claude?

[B]

Claude? Yes. Anthropic. Anthropics.

[A]

Oh, no. Carol, my man, my man is secretly out with Claude, pretending to love Chat GPT with me.

[B]

Claude. There's a lot, there's. Claude is pretty good, actually. Everyone, everyone is a different one. But I think Google, Gemini.

[A]

I just think my point is when I'm using, when I'm using boring ass, Basic ass Google.

[B]

Well, Google is now Gemini. Really. The answers come in AI, by the way. You've noticed.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I have noticed that. And I don't like it. You know, a lot of the time it's wrong.

[B]

You learn to like it.

[A]

Yeah. Even though it's not right. It's like, right. Ish.

[B]

It'll get right. Okay, It'll get right. It'll get right.

[A]

But Reddit is the thing that Google is now pushing me. Like it's near the top of a lot of my searches when I'm, when I'm looking for information. So I've become a Reddit person. Like, I'll just go to Reddit it now.

[B]

There used to be a lot of heinous stuff on there, but the people.

[A]

Who are running, that's what kept me away. Something changed. Something changed.

[B]

It did. It's, it's, you know what it is? It's a consumption. I think Reddit is like YouTube. It's consumptive where you don't have to necessarily participate, but it brings you all kinds of interesting information if you curate it properly.

[A]

And I know people have talked about it this way, which is like, it does remind me of the past. It seems somehow innocent and at the same time, you know, a lot of the people there take is like the information is good. Like I have traveled based. I made travel decisions based on Reddit threads.

[B]

And you've gotten good results.

[A]

Yeah, I've gotten good results.

[B]

My sons use it completely.

[A]

Good system.

[B]

Let me ask you about another cultural thing because it's. This is all over Reddit and all over social media. South park has done it again. I have to say whatever is in these people's drinks is working for them. The third episode of the show current season continued to mock the Trump administration. An episode focused on federal takeover in dc. In the episode the president is mocked for accepting bribes from big tech CEOs. Sort of real to life once again is in bed with Satan and yet still has a micro penis. Let's listen to a clip of Trump receiving gifts from a line of suck ups including Tim Cook. Mr. President, you have so many great ideas. Your leadership is truly beyond anything we have ever had in this country and you do not have a small peen. Ah, thanks gang. On behalf of the state of Florida, I'd like to give you this gift. A silver plated space shuttle.

[A]

Next. Mr. President, your ideas for the tech industry are so innovative and you definitely do not have a small penis.

[B]

Ah, thank you.

[A]

Please accept this gift on behalf of Apple.

[B]

So tell me what you think of it. Also did take this latest episode. Also took some shots at ChatGPT by the way. But talk about with this show right now something is, something's in there. Wheaties or whatever the old.

[A]

I think that the timing is really good. I think there's something about the brute force of the south park comedy ideology. I think the show didn't have to change to, for us to come back to it.

[B]

What do you mean the brute force of the comedy idea? I'll explain that.

[A]

Their, their approach is really to just name the thing, right? To just say the thing that it, that, that, that. To make the subtextual textual. There's no line to. You don't need to be literate to watch the show, if you know what I mean. Like you don't need to be visually literate and you don't need to really have a great sort of sense of cultural literacy. You just have to basically move, know, like have a gist of what's happening, especially now. But I mean, these guys, their genius is for. I think that's part of their genius to sort of be declarative in as comedians, to not need to have. It's like the Easter egg is, is an omelette on that show.

[B]

You just see it, they just say it.

[A]

It's just the thing that you. They've cracked it open.

[B]

You don't have to look for it. Even if you're not, you might not agree. Like the trans stuff, people complain about that. I just think they go after everybody.

[A]

Right. I think that, well, that's the thing that like always sort of scared me about those guys. I mean, I'm doing it. I'm doing an episode with somebody about my relationship with this show. And a lot of what I'm. A lot of where we're starting in this conversation is me sort of thinking through, through how much the show scared me because it was forcing me to think differently about things that, you know, as a young person I thought I understood. And here were people who were basically my age who, who were making fun of things that I didn't think you could make fun of.

[B]

Give me an example.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

Yeah, they do make fun of me.

[A]

I mean, I'm not a, you know, I wasn't an extremely religious person, but I didn't have time. I wasn't thinking. I mean, you know, and I had lived this was. I. I would consider south park part of the culture war era, of this, of the country. Right. The beginning of the show was happening at the end of the so called culture wars. And you know, I'm familiar with Andres Serrano's Christ Piss and Chris Ofili's work and Madonna. And yet there was something about the subversiveness of doing that, dismantling and undermining in the form of like crude children's animation. Right. It was actually the animation is so crude that it isn't for children. Because all the lines are sharp, right? All the lines on those drawings are sharp.

[B]

Yeah. One of the things that's interesting about it is, you know, that they can not that they continue to push against Trump. They will push against anybody, I think, and obviously the tech leaders are perfect for that. I mean, they don't even have to mock them. That's exactly what Tim Cook said, you know, when he was handing him the golden statue, essentially or whatever the golden. Whatever the fuck he handed him. Um, it's just. I think one of the things they do is, as you said, they are brutal. They're just. They don't even have to make satire here. Right. Because everything is so ridiculous on some level.

[A]

Well, I mean, I think that the. The one thing that they have changed is the calibration. Because, you know, when. When South Park Bigger, Longer and Uncut, the. The great, truly great movie musical they made 26 years ago came out, there was a degree of. Of subtlety happening there because, you know, they were taking the satire of the sitcom and essentially overlaying it. They were. They were stretching it to fit a musical movie, musical format. And so the movie is a legitimate musical while also functioning as social and political satire. It's just that in 1999, the culture was different. And so the thing. Thing that. That people were upset about was the way in which it depicted Satan and homosexuals and. And was having a good time with these conflations. And I found that. That naughtiness to be really liberating in a way.

[B]

I did too. I. I was not offended, interestingly.

[A]

No, I was. I mean, and I should have been an offended party as. As a gay Negro, but I wasn't. Cause I kind of understood the place that the comedy was coming from. And I think that in the lifespan of this show, we've seen our relationship to comedy change, like, 10 times.

[B]

Yes, well, you think about the Book of Mormon too, though, right? Yeah, I loved that show so much. And oddly enough, I was there. I saw it several times. And there's a lot of offensive gay things in that, you know, and it's fun, but it's funny. It's funny, but it's really funny. And I know it's like, don't pick on the gay. I'm like, it's okay a little bit to pick on, like.

[A]

I mean, the gays pick on the gays.

[B]

The gays pick on the gays.

[A]

Let's be honest. And other people in our meetings, in.

[B]

Our meetings when you're not there. But the Book of Mormon, to me, I was recommending someone see it even now, because it's. So I actually may go back and see it again.

[A]

I'm gonna go back, actually. Cause I think, you know, for the purposes of this thing that I'm doing, I'm gonna go back and see it.

[B]

But one of the things is I was there once, still on Broadway, still on Broadway with a bunch of Mormons. Went. Because they thought it was funny. Certain Mormons think it's funny, too, and it's so insulting to Mormons. But it's interesting that I don't think the Trump administration thinks this is funny because they have no sense of humor. Right. This group of people are not going to. If they continue at it, they may. Especially the micropenis part, which is very funny, which is what everybody thinks of Donald Trump. He has a micropenis. That's what is.

[A]

You know, I mean, Kara, I can see the tie.

[B]

Yeah, that's correct.

[A]

And you know, the thing that, like, I find scary, I found scary about Trey Parker and Matt Stone as a kid was that they didn't seem to have any allegiance to anything other than, like, their comedic version of the truth. And the joke. Is the joke funny? And after that, we don't.

[B]

This is why I like them. You know, sometimes I had a real issue with Dave Chappelle because he. I didn't mind. He's making jokes. I was like, do you need to make an hour of them? And some aren't funny. Like, make it funny like the other. At Easter in San Francisco, near my house, they have hot Jesus. Have you ever been to the Hot Jesus contest?

[A]

I mean, hello, Hello.

[B]

But it's like someone's like, oh, it's sacrilege. I'm like, no, it's funny. It's like, if it's not funny, then why do it? And that's what I like.

[A]

The hot Jesus. Come on. I like. I mean. But again, like, I think that the. The return of this show has been really useful to remind us. I mean, because we've had more fights about whether comedy can be comedy in the last. I mean, this has been going on since 9 11, honestly.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, what can be funny? What. What are we allowed to laugh at? When can we laugh? What now is comedy is really about, like, who the comedy comedian is. And the. The thing about having south park back is nobody's changed. It's not like in Just like that, where Carrie, Miranda and Charlotte are now no longer 28 to 34. They're in their mid-50s. They're like mid to late-50s and figuring out how the world works. The world has changed, but the people in south park have not.

[B]

Have not. That's exactly right. And it's still funny.

[A]

And it's still funny.

[B]

It's still funny. All right, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about the latest to join the podcast. Taylor Swift. This episode is brought to you by ebay. We all have that piece, the one that's so you, you've basically become known for it. And if you don't yet fashionistas, you'll find it on ebay. That Miu Miu red leather bomber, the cousteau Barcelona cowboy top. Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway. All these finds are all on ebay, along with millions of more main cat character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee. Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion. Ebay Things people love.

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[B]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to 15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mint mobile.com Wesley we're back with more news. Last week, Taylor Swift went on her boyfriend Travis Kelce's podcast to announce her newest album. As usual, she broke the Internet. The episod had 1.3 million live viewers, which is almost double the audience that tuned in to see Donald Trump on Joe Rogan. At the time of the taping. The episode has 20 million YouTube views in total. Meanwhile, Spotify reported the episode has become one of the past year's highest performing. Within just one day of release, increased female viewership of the shows by 600%. Not a surprise.

[A]

600%.

[B]

600%.

[A]

God damn.

[B]

I know, I know. I guess dudes are watching that. Talk about that she can do whenever it wants. I mean, of course Donald Trump is saying she's not hot anymore. She's still hot. She still remains.

[A]

I'm sorry, can we pause for what did he mean she's not hot anymore?

[B]

I don't know. Because she is hot. She looked beautiful on that show.

[A]

Does he mean. Did he mean it like that or.

[B]

She'S not like, no, she's no longer the thing. She's not. What is he talking about exactly, this man?

[A]

I mean, I can't talk about big Thai energy. I just can't do it. I just won't do it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Big, like long Thai energy. Is that what it is? Um, I, first of all, I found it interesting that, that, that she basically was using it to. She was using this appearance to announce an album, essentially. Right?

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

It wasn't as though this show needed it. You know, there are shows that would love to have Taylor Swift come on for the numbers. This, this didn't feel like a numbers play to me. It felt like she was trying something out. I mean, she kind of said it herself on the, in the, on the episode. Um, but I think that, you know, I mean, this is a show that has Adam Sandler, come on, Brad Pitt's been on it. Like, it's not, it's not like they. It's not a desert for celebrity guests. So having her come on, it felt kind of sweet and, and to the extent that, like, adorable thing that turns into an album announced. Album release announcement can be, can be sweet, pure and innocent. This felt a lot like that. Um, you know, the thing that I, that sort of listening to the show, the two of them, you know, the brothers Travis and Jason, Kelsey, you know, who have these, like, they have like, very different off the show lives. And to bring their different personalities and energies into the show is. Is often fun. It really does feel like two brothers, I think.

[B]

Yeah, they have a nice relationship.

[A]

They have a good relationship. But it's. It was interesting watching Jason try to Dr. This particular episode.

[B]

Oh, because it's all Taylor, right? Yes. Right. My brother's famous girlfriend.

[A]

Well, but also the way that Travis Kelce is just hype Manning her pretty much the entire conversation. It was just interesting seeing the show dynamics change around the arrival of this person.

[B]

Right. Well, that must be like that outside. Right? She's got to suck up all the energy. Doesn't.

[A]

I've heard that even if she doesn't.

[B]

Try, she can't help it. Right. Because one of the things I thought about the show is again, like Sarah and Jessica Parker different, but pound for pound, she's really entertaining. Like, she's really like. You can't stop watching her. And I don't know why that is. Right. And so wherever she appears and she even sings about it. Right. You know, my daughter was dancing to Anti Hero the other day. I don't know why she's so attractive to people. Which is especially women. That it was a completely pleasurable experience watching it in a way that was very satisfying. I thought. I don't know, maybe not.

[A]

I. I listened to it. I didn't watch it. I watched it, like, the tiny little bit, but I listened to.

[B]

You got to watch it. Because she leans into. Anyway.

[A]

Oh, no. I mean, I can. I was allowed to imagine it. Right. I find. I don't know. She. It's interesting. She's an interesting physical presence. Um, and I kind of like her better in my imagination, if that makes sense. Um, you know, I like one of the. I have a real. It was interesting listening to her talk about. Listening to the three of them talk about the ERAS tour in their different ways. And, you know, the way that. That. I mean, I had forgotten the entire story of the relationship. Right. Like, I mean, he was at the show and was like, I got to know this part person is. I mean, you know, he's the luckiest fan in the world. We all know this. He gets to go home with the thing that he went to the show to see. And she seems happy with that. I think that she. The way she talked about that show was interesting to me in that I have a lot of wonder about what these tours are like for the artists. And. And, you know, unlike the Beyonce concert documentary of her Renaissance tour, the ERAS tour film didn't have a lot of backstage stuff.

[B]

It didn't. You're right.

[A]

She wanted to sort of preserve the magic of the live experience, whereas the Beyonce film, to me, was fascinating because she wanted to kind of enhance the mythology of the achievement of the live experience by humanizing the person who becomes someone else on stage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And so it was great listening to her talk. I mean, you know, it was enlightening hearing Taylor Swift talk about toe spacers.

[B]

But she does that. I would encourage you to go back and watch Miss Americana again, because that gives you enormous insight into her.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Watch it now when she's famous, because at the time, she was on a downswing. Right?

[A]

Yeah, it was when. It was around the time that reputation was being rebuffed and loved.

[B]

Or there's another show where she's in someone's house where they're singing all country songs, she's with two of her, and they're just talking about the songs. I mean, I think she's quite accessible and yet unknowable in a lot of ways. And I felt like this was, you know. But she's very. You do know a lot about her in a weird way. And I Think she may be just like this. Right. I always think, does a drunk agree with the Sober is an expression? You know, when people are drunk, they're different when they're sober. Yes. I think sometimes you meet certain people who are exactly the way they are in private and public and then there's some that are quite different. You know, like a Johnny Carson would be the perfect example. Like shy and kind of.

[A]

Oh yeah. You would be disappointed to meet him in person.

[B]

Yes. Because they're not getting tonight shows pretty much like this. I think she's lived in fame for so long, this is what she is.

[A]

I would agree with that. I also, but there's something about. Yes. I mean, I think that the thing that I loved about this conversation was how seriously she was taking it in some way. Like she wasn't there to do all the joshing that the brothers were trying to do. Right, right. And so like there'd be, Jason would ask a question and she'd be in the middle of answering it. Travis Kelsey would kind of interrupt and then they would start doing their brother thing and she would not even acknowledge that that was happening and she would continue her answer. And that was to me, I just felt like she was happy to have this opportunity to just think through herself.

[B]

In a, in a safe space in.

[A]

A place where she wasn't going to be asked a follow up question, basically.

[B]

Right, right, exactly. I, I listen, all the results are the results. People are still thrilled with her, which is really interesting. We'll see how this album does. But it's gonna do.

[A]

We'll see how this album does. What do you think is gonna happen to this Alb?

[B]

Going to be huge.

[A]

Like, nobody's going to, nobody's going to care.

[B]

No, everyone's going to care. But I'm saying like, yeah, but how can you top yourself if you're this woman? That's the difficulty of being Taylor Swift.

[A]

I will never forget my night at the Eras tour. I truly will never forget it.

[B]

Me neither.

[A]

It was one of the most special communal experiences I've had. I've had a lot of special communal experiences. This is definitely in my top 50. And I think one of the things that was special about it was one of the things that she kind of wanted to unpack a little bit, which is like the toll that it took on her body. And you can really, you know, after two and a half hours, Kara, I watched this show. Well, I was fine, but I was, I was watching it with a friend in front of three. I don't know 13 to 15 year old girls. And for the first hour of this show, which really annoyed me because Lover is the opening alb. And I, I'm a, I'm mostly a lover person. I, it's not my favorite Taylor Swift album, but I do really, there's some great songs on that album. And these girls were screaming for like an hour, just screaming, just screaming. It didn't matter what, they just screamed the entire first hour of that show. And I, I just turned, I couldn't. But, and also like the part of me that is like, like wanted to turn around and give him like the dirtiest look I possibly could. I was like, dan, don't do that. You're not supposed to be here. Wesley, these people, this show is for them. It's not for you. Don't you old man them just stand there and take it. But Cara, at like hour 107, or sorry, hour 107 at minute 107 when Taylor's still going strong, guess who is passed out on the seats behind me. The kids are out. They don't have the stamina of this 35 year old. A woman.

[B]

No, no, she's the, she is the woman.

[A]

It's crazy. She wiped these girls out.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Night after night.

[B]

Same thing with podcasting. She did the same thing, but she.

[A]

Made that look easy. I, I, but I think what I'm saying about the limitations are the only limitation to me is that I think it keeps her from doing something that I think is really critical for, for like artistic growth in some way, which is to like be reinterpreting yourself.

[B]

Yes, to be. But she doesn't want to.

[A]

I mean, I mean, just the act of re recording those songs, she basically does it. I mean, I think the original recordings are the important artistic document, the important historical and political document are the re recordings.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Like one of the greatest things a pop star has ever done is re record the old material.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

It's not. Artistically, it's good. To me, she thinks it's better. In some ways her singing is better, but I didn't, that's not what I'm showing up for.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. But let me just tell you, Taylor Swift does as she damn well pleases. That's all I understand. I'm using flash news flash. And she's going to continue to do so. All right, Wesley, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.

[A]

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[A]

This episode is brought to you by FX's alien Earth, the official podcast. Each week, host Adam Rogers is joined by guests, including the show's creator, cast and crew. In this exclusive companion podcast, they will explore story elements, deep dive into character motivations, and offer an episode by episode behind the scenes breakdown of each terrifying chapter in this new series. Search FX's alien Earth. Wherever you listen to podcasts, this episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Between two factor authentication, strong passwords, and a VPN, you try to be in control of how your info is protected. But many other places also have it, and they might not be as careful. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats. If your identity is stolen, they'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast for 40% off. Terms apply.

[B]

Okay, Wesley, let's hear a prediction. Anything you want. Anything you want.

[A]

Another thing I want to. I'm going to do an Adam Sandler episode.

[B]

Okay. I love Adam Sandler. I'm sorry, I'm not. I'm not against this.

[A]

And I am just obsessed with these directors trying to win this man an Oscar.

[B]

Oh, because they're trying to. The serious one.

[A]

Everybody wants to try to win, like the, the murderer's row of people who have tried to win this man an Academy Award is just. Y' all need to just stop it.

[B]

Just stop.

[A]

Because when you stop trying, it will happen. I mean, I don't know. I just. So there's this Noah Baumbach movie coming out toward the end of the year that he is in. And, you know, I really enjoy Noah Baumbach. I enjoy Adam Sandler. This isn't even my favorite Adam Sandler mode. I can't. I won't even get into it here. But, like, I think. I believe for a lot of reasons, the, the. The stars will align for Adam Sandler to at least go to the Academy Awards with his name on a list. I. That's a prediction.

[B]

I'm gonna. That's what you predict. And do you. You know, he's done a lot of. I mean, Remember Spanglish in 2004?

[A]

I just watched the sandwich scene from that movie.

[B]

So. It's such a good movie. Positive. It was amazing.

[A]

I loved the lighting in that movie. The reason I can't really go back and keep watching it is it's some of the worst lighting I've ever seen in A movie just truly bizarre. Bizarre. Like it's all lit from above with fluorescence. Nobody looks good in the indoor.

[B]

Always looks good.

[A]

Yeah, but she's mostly outside. You'll notice Ta Leoni is mostly outside in this movie. She's got like three indoor scenes. Everybody else is inside.

[B]

Okay. Anyway, I think he's probably. He's not a bad thing. Because he is actually. Every now and then you see very good acting, even though you guys say, oh, no, no, no, no. He, you know, a little like Jerry Lewis.

[A]

Can you do that again?

[B]

There's a really good SNL skit where he visits his relatives and they're like, I think you're taking my character. And they're all his cousins.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's really great, actually. But he's. I think he's. He's like Jerry Lewis to me. And Jerry Lewis, I think, was a fascinating actor in some ways.

[A]

Yes. He's a. He's more interesting to me than. Well, no, that's not true. I mean, Jerry Lew is a peak, and his peak. They're comparable. Jerry Lewis has more cocaine in.

[B]

In him.

[A]

And Adam Sandler is more weed. Oh, yeah, fair point. Or beer. I don't know. I mean, but there. If there's a drug. If there's a drug that. If. If, like, what is their drug or what is the drug that personifies them? Jerry Lewis is hands down cocaine. What's a speedball?

[B]

Speedball. Cannonball.

[A]

Well, I mean, like, if. Like maybe it's a speedball. That's Jerry Lewis.

[B]

Yeah, Speedball. That's true. Who knows? Or a drink or martini. Just a lot. No, that would be Dean.

[A]

That's Dean. That's Dean.

[B]

That's Dean. You're right. Rodeo Dodo. Anyway, so you predict he's gonna get an Oscar.

[A]

You predict nomination. Let's not go crazy, Karen.

[B]

Okay. All right. Because who's gonna, like, hip check him? What does he have to do? Because he's been in some serious movies.

[A]

Yeah, but that's not. Not enough. You really. I mean, like, truly do. I think he should have been. I mean, it just hasn't happened because it doesn't needed to happen.

[B]

You know why? Because he does Happy Gilmore too. That's why. Even if it's highly successful.

[A]

But I think the thing that makes him great is that he doesn't want it. Like, he. The thing that makes him great is that he's doing Happy Gilmore too.

[B]

Yeah, he has. Very successful.

[A]

This is a person who really enjoys himself. I miss weird episodes. Adam Sandler and that's I won't get it. Like that's the thing. I really was gonna try to get in, but I'm not gonna do it. You will have to come back for the Adam Sandler episode.

[B]

Okay, I can't wait.

[A]

That'll mostly be about none of the things we are talking about, but this other mode of Adam Sandler that I really like.

[B]

All right. I can't wait till listen to it. Well, this has been great. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about physiotech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to send a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. Okay, that's the show. Wesley, you're wonderful. I think you're wonderful.

[A]

I can't believe I got to like spend 75 minutes talking to you.

[B]

Oh, come on. You can hang out with me in real life.

[A]

I know, I know.

[B]

People can listen to Cannonball or Parlando, whatever you want to call it.

[A]

Cannonball. It's not called Parlando. You got to be real clear about that.

[B]

Lando. I'm good in my head. I'm going to think Parlando.

[A]

Well, fine. But it's. It's Cannonball.

[B]

You are. And you're on YouTube as well, even though you don't like it. You got a nice shine up. You look great.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You look really. All the times when some of them less. I'm not gonna say anything about Ross too had anyway.

[A]

I think you just said it.

[B]

I just did say it. There's no shining possible for that man anyway.

[A]

He's got other attributes. I don't know.

[B]

Okay, sure, I know. Okay. I'm not gonna. Don't make me insult him. I have a name for him and everything else.

[A]

You do.

[B]

I do. I'm not gonna tell it to you on the show. I'm not gonna do it. Well, ask Amanda. She knows. She knows. She's named him. Okay. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to subs. YouTube channel also will be back next week and please listen to Cannonball. It's a great show.

[A]

Thank you. Cannon.

[B]

Wesley is a very prescient person on all things culture. You always make me think and I really appreciate that in lots of ways. In ways I didn't think I would think about. But back at you. Thank you. Anyway, I will read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited this video. Nishat Kura is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. The days to Scott are ticking away, but Wes, I really appreciate you being here.