Trump Sues Murdoch, Colbert Cancellation, and Coldplay Kiss Cam Fallout

Summary

Pivot Podcast Summary: "Trump Sues Murdoch, Colbert Cancellation, and Coldplay Kiss Cam Fallout"

Release Date: July 22, 2025

In this engaging episode of Pivot by New York Magazine, hosts Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway delve into a trio of high-profile controversies that intersect technology, media, and politics. The conversation seamlessly weaves personal anecdotes with deep analysis, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of each topic's implications.

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1. Coldplay Kiss Cam Fallout and Astronomer CEO Resignation

Timestamp: [03:02 - 05:38]

The episode opens with a discussion about a scandal involving Andy Byron, CEO of DataOps platform Astronomer, who resigned after being caught on camera sharing an intimate moment with the company's head of HR during a Coldplay concert.

Kara Swisher shares the incident:

"Andy Byron has resigned after being caught on camera at a Coldplay concert having an intimate moment with the company's head of HR. You literally cannot make this up." ([04:27])

Scott Galloway analyzes the situation:

"When you get to a certain level of power, people will start treating you differently and you create a power asymptote symmetry, which usually men are more predisposed to abusing, and it creates too much risk for the organization." ([06:10])

The hosts explore the broader implications of corporate shaming and the balance between personal misconduct and professional responsibilities. Galloway further discusses the role of boards in handling such incidents, emphasizing the necessity of maintaining organizational integrity.

---

2. Cancellation of Stephen Colbert's Late Show

Timestamp: [17:08 - 26:30]

A significant portion of the conversation centers on CBS's decision to cancel The Late Show with Stephen Colbert. While CBS attributes the move to financial losses—reporting a 40% drop in ad revenue since 2018 and an annual loss of $40 million—the hosts speculate about underlying political motivations.

Kara Swisher questions the official rationale:

"CBS insists the decision to cancel the Late Show with Stephen Colbert was purely financial, had nothing to do with the other matters happening at Paramount, which is acquiescent Donald Trump and paying him a bribe." ([04:55])

Scott Galloway provides an economic analysis:

"Late night TV was $400 million in advertising in 2018. It's gone to $200 million. Supposedly the show costs $100 million to produce and makes $60 million, losing $40 million a year." ([22:03])

The discussion highlights the declining profitability of late-night television, contrasting it with the lean operations of Pivot, which operates with significantly fewer employees and lower costs. Galloway posits that the cancellation may not just be a financial decision but also part of a larger trend of media consolidation and political influence.

---

3. Trump Sues Rupert Murdoch Over Epstein Story

Timestamp: [33:18 - 42:22]

The episode shifts focus to former President Donald Trump's lawsuit against Rupert Murdoch and News Corp. This defamation suit arises from a Wall Street Journal article alleging that Trump sent a birthday letter to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003, which Trump vehemently denies.

Kara Swisher outlines the lawsuit:

"Trump is suing Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal for defamation over his story about the birthday letter that Trump allegedly sent to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003." ([34:07])

Scott Galloway assesses the potential outcomes:

"Rupert Murdoch is going to stick up the middle finger and this... Nothing." ([38:39])

The hosts discuss the dynamics between Trump and Murdoch, considering Murdoch's influence in the media landscape and the improbability of Trump succeeding in his legal endeavors. They also touch upon the broader implications for media credibility and the power struggles within major media conglomerates.

---

4. Elon Musk and SpaceX's Government Contracts

Timestamp: [47:07 - 53:52]

Kara and Scott delve into the complexities surrounding Elon Musk's SpaceX and its pivotal role in U.S. government operations. A review highlighted SpaceX's critical contributions to the Defense Department and NASA, including the Crew Dragon spacecraft and the Starlink internet service.

Kara Swisher raises security concerns:

"SpaceX's high-speed Internet through Starlink provides national security satellite capabilities. You've mentioned the security risk." ([35:07])

Scott Galloway elaborates on the monopolistic risks:

"87% of launches in 2024 in the US were SpaceX. And they're basically launching, doing a launch every 2.1 days because the Falcon Heavy rocket can put a kilogram into space for $2,000." ([52:37])

The conversation highlights the dangers of dependency on a single private entity for critical infrastructure, comparing it to telecommunications monopolies. Galloway advocates for legislative measures to ensure competition and prevent potential abuses of power, emphasizing the national security implications of such monopolies.

---

5. Media Shaming and Societal Impact

Timestamp: [05:03 - 07:28]

The hosts explore the concept of shaming in modern society, differentiating between traditional social shaming meant to restore communal harmony and its "industrialized" counterpart used for entertainment.

Scott Galloway reflects on societal changes:

"Shaming is an important part of our society, and that is to be shamed is meant to restore the social fabric... The problem is now we have industrialized shame and we use it for entertainment." ([05:03])

They discuss how public shaming can lead to division and the erosion of social cohesion, especially when amplified by media and digital platforms. The conversation ties back to the Astronomer CEO incident, analyzing how public perception and corporate responses interplay in the age of viral content.

---

6. Late-Night TV's Declining Relevance

Timestamp: [22:03 - 31:38]

Kara and Scott dissect the declining viability of late-night television shows in the current media landscape. They compare the operational efficiencies of traditional shows like The Late Show with Stephen Colbert to Pivot, highlighting the latter's lower costs and higher growth potential.

Scott Galloway emphasizes the economic disparity:

"We're doing $1.5 million per employee and we're growing 20% a year. They're doing $300,000 per employee and shrinking 20% a year." ([23:17])

The discussion underscores the shifting viewership patterns, with audiences migrating to digital platforms and podcasts, which offer more flexibility and lower production costs. They also consider the impact of political content on show profitability, suggesting that high levels of political engagement may deter certain advertisers.

---

7. Listener Interaction: Curtis Yarvin and the MAGA Movement

Timestamp: [55:40 - 56:35]

Responding to a listener's suggestion, Kara introduces a segment on Curtis Yarvin, a far-right philosopher influencing the MAGA movement and tech culture.

Kara Swisher summarizes:

"Curtis Yarvin is a very online far right philosopher... one of Trump's most controversial doesn't even begin to cover it." ([55:40])

The hosts acknowledge the importance of understanding Yarvin's impact on contemporary political and technological landscapes, planning to explore his influence on figures like Donald Trump and the broader tech industry.

---

8. Wins and Fails Segment

Timestamp: [57:25 - 67:09]

In their traditional "Wins and Fails" segment, Kara and Scott share personal and professional highlights and setbacks.

• Kara's Fail: Criticism of Lindsay Snyder, granddaughter of In-N-Out's founders, for relocating the family business from California to Tennessee. She voices concerns over ingratitude and the impact on California's economy.

• Kara's Win: Praises HBO's The Gilded Age and the successful season of the Sex and the City spinoff, highlighting exceptional performances and production quality.

• Scott's Win: Commends Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan for her bipartisan leadership and effective governance, contrasting it with broader political cynicism.

Kara Swisher on Michigan's leadership:

"My win is Governor Whitmer. And Michigan does a pretty good job of being pretty bipartisan. They have economic growth there." ([57:25])

Scott Galloway on personal achievements:

"I just interviewed Governor Whitmer... she is a very impressive person." ([61:33])

The segment provides a lighthearted conclusion to the episode, balancing critical discussions with positive affirmations of leadership and entertainment.

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9. Closing Remarks and Promotions

As the episode wraps up, Kara promotes her podcast featuring E. Jean Carroll and Robby Kaplan, detailing their legal battles against Donald Trump. Although the hosts acknowledge upcoming segments and ads, the primary content remains within the above-discussed topics.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Kara Swisher:

  "I have to say it was utterly innovative, pleasing. They did it so well." ([03:02])

• Scott Galloway:

  "Shaming is an important part of our society... It's cutting out our fabric now." ([05:03])

• Kara Swisher:

  "Everything's computer Today explained weekday afternoons." ([56:35])

• Scott Galloway:

  "The Wall Street Journal was the first media outlet where people thought, wow, this reporting lends me to believe that the wealthiest man in the world is in fact a drug addict." ([37:55])

---

This episode of Pivot offers a nuanced exploration of the interplay between media influence, political maneuvering, and corporate accountability. Swisher and Galloway provide insightful commentary, enriched with personal anecdotes and sharp analysis, making complex issues accessible to their audience.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

No mess. Now your inhibition centers were damaged at birth. Scott Galloway hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, all I have to say to you is Bubbles. Bubbles.

[Scott Galloway]

Say more.

[Kara Swisher]

This weekend I went to something called the Bubble Experience. You know the people who do the Van Gogh thing, the multimedia and Van Gogh thing, they've done this bubble thing and it was so much fun. It was all these various types of bubbles and like pools full of like bubble looking things and balloons of bubbles. We went with friends and my kids and we had the best bubblicious time.

[Scott Galloway]

You really need to start doing drugs. Shit like that was invented.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. For that. That's what I was thinking as I was there. I have to say it was, it was a whole lot of fun. I'm trying to do more things that are not digital, not TV oriented or movie oriented. This was very kinetic and very like touching things and it was nice.

[Scott Galloway]

They're all over wash. They're all over these sensory experiences where it's basically like the color factory where you basically jump into a ball pit and then decide they tell you that magenta is your spirit animal color, and then you have a weird color ice cream and they charge you 85 dol. And you just know. You just know what it is. You know, it's literally like four kids in a dorm room their senior year at NYU who are so fucking high going, what's the easiest way we can invest some of our parents money and make millions of dollars?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. But I have to say, it was utterly innovative, pleasing. They did it so well. And I have to tell you, Scott, I don't use VR very much, but at the end, they had a VR experience also with bubbles. That was the thematic. That was wonderful. It was the first time they had you hanging in chairs. So you were moving. The chairs were moving.

[Scott Galloway]

I did something similar when I was in Amsterdam. A woman named Helga held me in a chair. It was very expensive, though. It was very expensive.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway. Anyway, not for kids. Urged people to get out and do things with friends. We laughed our asses off. Anyway, we got a lot to get to today, including Trump suing Rupert Murdoch and CBS canceling Colbert. I know you have a lot of thoughts on this, but it's really hard not to talk about the Coldplay situation. The cold playing of it all. The CEO of DataOps platform, Astronomer. I don't know why it was called Astronomer. Andy Byron has resigned after being caught on camera at a Coldplay concert having an intimate moment with the company's head of hr. You literally cannot make this up. We had our own steamy date at Coldplay, caught on camera, which people can see on our socials. As listeners pointed out, of course, you're the small spoon, Scott. Another commenter said, I would let Kara swaddle the fuck out of me. One more. Someone said Scott would be an awful head of hr. He would have to call himself to his office on a daily basis for the latest inappropriate joke. I mean, what do you think of this thing? This is a phenomenom, a nomina.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, first off, I mean, distinct of all the humor and the reality is good humor. The reality is a mother who trusted this guy, who thought she'd found the love of her life and was raising children with someone, found out in the worst way possible that he's a fan of Coldplay.

[Kara Swisher]

I knew that. I knew. I was like, where is he going? Because he could care less. Anyway, Coldplay was a little bit embarrassing, I have to say. I would agree. I would agree.

[Scott Galloway]

Whatever. He works for Astronomer. He was studying Uranus.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, oh, how long did you wait for that one how long?

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, I'll be serious. I'll be serious. For a question, I always go. I think it reflects something kind of weird about our society. Shaming. I think a lot about shaming because I think a lot about depression and what triggers you. And the reality is shaming is an important part of our society, and that is to be shamed is meant to restore the social fabric. You are not supposed to beat up children in your tribe, and if you do, you are shamed. And there's a good reason for it. It's meant to create cohesion in a more civil, you know, civil community and species. The problem is now we have industrialized shame and we use it for entertainment. And in my opinion, a lot of what was meant to be shaming was meant to restore fabric. It's cutting out our fabric now, and that is. There's just too much economic incentive to shame people. Also, on a more meta level, I find there's an industrial shaming complex is essentially a form of mini revolution because essentially you're always. They're always shaming rich white people because people are so pissed off that CEOs are now making 300 times the average salary, not 30. And let me just go to a very tactical level here. We deal with this all the time on boards because men will mistake kindness for sexual interest and women mistake sexual interest for kindness. There is always a mismatch. Instinctively, men, when they get to a certain level, start believing that that woman is interested in me. And this is, you know, reportedly she.

[Kara Swisher]

Seemed interested in him. But go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Right. And it happens. And a lot of times it's consensual. But the approach, and I think this is the right one, that a bunch of the boards I've been on, is that below a certain level, consensual relationships, of which are 99% of work, one in three relationships begin at work, are a wonderful thing. 8. There's been eight marriages in my company. So I think it's a wonderful thing above a certain level, executive level. And you have to, in my opinion, need to predetermine it. Your fly is up and locked. This guy, in my opinion, was guilty the moment that happened. Because when you get to a certain level of power, people will start treating you differently and you create a power asymptote symmetry, which usually men are more predisposed to abusing, and it creates too much risk for the organization. So, in sum, let's be honest, he didn't resign. He was fired. The board immediately met, had a conversation, said he's out and then he got that call saying, we think it's. We're going to make a change. We think it's best if you resign. And he agreed.

[Kara Swisher]

I know that's. That happens a lot in these companies, trust me covering them, but it's always someone like that. But I mean, in case of one big tech company, the chief counsel had a baby with someone at the company.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, Google.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, this would be it.

[Scott Galloway]

You mean Tinder, which was the tech community.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they do that all the time. One time a friend of mine who was working got a job, I think at Facebook at the time, or went to a small company from Facebook or something like that. And I said, well, what's your job? She goes, my job is the department of stopping people from fucking each other. And I was like, oh, okay, good job. But here's the thing in this case, beyond that, and that's the obvious issue here from a corporate point of view. One, when you go to concerts now or anywhere, you should have not. No expectations of privacy with all the cameras, with everything being recorded. And by the way, a kiss cam is sort of the least of the technologies, right? Like, kiss cams have been around forever. So have. Like pranking people like those T. Remember those TV shows where they always like Candid Camera, like, right, this is not a new, fresh thing. And sometimes Candid Camera resulted in really terrible things, right? Things like this. So I don't think it's a new and fresh thing. I think what it is is that the ability for it to go viral in the most profound way is really what's different. I think we've been shaming people for a long time using technology, prank phone calls again, Candid Camera back in the day, and things like that. So I'm not so sure they should have gone to this concert as a couple was problematic at the company and thought it thought people might not see them. Right. That was sort of the arrogance of it more than anything. The Internet did do an amazing job with funny stuff that was for sure, like putting Betty and Veronica together or Fred Flintstone and Betty, or Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, or Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. So some of those were quite funny. Right.

[Scott Galloway]

I think the funniest thing is now at every sporting venue across the world, when anyone. The kiss can go anywhere, dive like they're being found out.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, that was funny. Those are good.

[Scott Galloway]

But there's. Let me ask you this. And this is one of the things that always struck me about a certain level of fame. How many people a day would you.

[Kara Swisher]

Say recognize you 7 to 10 now?

[Scott Galloway]

No, I'm sorry. 7 to 10 come up to you?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. So lots of people recognize me. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

So I'm aware of it.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay. This is what that means. And I think about this a lot. Supposedly, for every person that comes up to you, a hundred people recognize you and don't come up to you. Because think about how many people you recognize and how many you actually go up to. I recognize in SoHo, I see people. I see dozens of people every day. I either know them professionally, but I never go up to someone or very rarely go up to them. So if seven people are coming up to you, that means that day, 700 people recognized you. And I think about that, and it freaks me out. Because what I feel like now is I have a security camera everywhere, right? Wherever I am. And you see it, right? I'll be at a restaurant, and I look over and I see someone looking at me, and I'm like, that's more than a glancing face. They're trying to put together how they know me. And some of it is bad because you feel like you lose a little bit of your anonymity. But I also think it's not a bad thing to just be thinking, okay, I need to equip myself well, because I do.

[Kara Swisher]

I act better, I have to say. Do you act better? I was getting coffee the other day.

[Scott Galloway]

I think I'm nicer.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm nicer. I'm so nice. I'm like, do you want a picture? Would you like. Because they're sitting there with their camera. We're not, like, really big celebrities, but I think people really do notice because literally, especially after, when your dad died, people really reached out. I had a lot that week, but I've had two people come up to me in one coffee thing. And I thought, other people know who I am here, right? And so what I do is I behave better. I'm incredibly polite when I have my kids with me. I'm very nice to my children. Like, I don't like chastising. I'm like. Like, sometimes when your kids drive you crazy, you're like, will you please sit down? I don't do that. Which is interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

So I. Yeah, I've stopped hitting my kids. That's. I hate that. That's a real bummer.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, no, you know, I think nicer. I think I'm nicer in public because I'm aware that just one picture of me being a Karen or something, I don't want that to happen.

[Scott Galloway]

No, it'll go everywhere. I Agree.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not usually like that, but that.

[Scott Galloway]

But it's so strange what the algorithms and the public pick up on, because more is known about these two people now than the guy who was killed trying to assassinate Trump. I mean, it's just weird what we find fascinating. These people, literally. You want to talk about the Earth moving beneath your feet? Can you imagine? This is for the rest of their life. This is how those people. These people. What these people are known for, whenever they move to a new community, they get remarried and they're joining a tennis club. They're showing up for a game of double doubles. And this woman, this is like, oh, remember that? That's this woman. They have just marked their brands for the rest of their lives.

[Kara Swisher]

They did do the move, though. I think they didn't. You know, they could have done a lot of things, but their move was so dramatic at the same time. Like, we're hiding. And then allowed Chris Martin to say what he said. Right. It all came together because they did the Duck and cover. And then Chris Martin said they're either having an affair or they're shy, but he first said they're either having, uh. Oh, oh. Like, he kind of set it up. Like, imagine being him. And who's the camera guy? Like, it's all those kind of things I'm fascinated by. Was it good for PR at all, for the company or not?

[Scott Galloway]

You know what? That's a really interesting question, because one of the biggest components of branding now is just awareness. Had you ever heard of a firm name astronomer before?

[Kara Swisher]

I thought it was an astronomy thing. Like, I didn't know it was what it was.

[Scott Galloway]

It's some sort of AI thing. In a weird way. Look, this was bad for the two of them. In a weird way, I would argue this is good for shareholders of the company. Yeah, well, everybody knows this company now.

[Kara Swisher]

It's true. It's true. I think I've met this guy many years ago when he was at Fuse. I think he was at Fuse. I feel like I met him. When I saw him, I'm like, but he looks like a lot of tech CEOs. Like, to me, I was like, oh, that guy.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't know him really well, but he gives great head. How did I go there? How did I go there? How did I go there?

[Kara Swisher]

How am I gonna make this transition? Then?

[Scott Galloway]

Whenever I know when it's time for me to leave a CEO, when we get a CF ahead of hr, then I'm like, I'm out. But our company gets acquired, right? And of course, there's this new global head of HR. On fucking Friday at 6pm, first week after the deal closes, I get a call from a global head saying, hi, this is Lisa Whatever, head of global hr, I need to speak to you urgently. Oh, no, I mean, I'm there. It's been five days and I'm already in trouble.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

So I call her back and start emailing her and she doesn't get back to me till Monday at 10am, which by the way, is a great weekend. That's a great weekend. When the head of HR calls you and says, call me immediately.

[Kara Swisher]

I hate when people do that in general, I need to talk to you urgently. But then don't say that.

[Scott Galloway]

And then you don't talk to them anyway. So she calls me back and at this point the check is cleared so I can be fairly forward. And I'm like. And I said to her, I'm like, how do you think my weekend was?

[Kara Swisher]

Right, how do you think?

[Scott Galloway]

What do you think? It was very simple. We have these all hands. And that Monday we'd had an all hands. And we always go around and everyone talks about what they're doing and we introduce the new people. And I say, I open it up for questions and one of the newbies goes, I'm brand new. He's like, I'm just curious, what is the vacation policy? And I said, the vacation policy is when you're new, you don't ask what the fucking vacation policy is.

[Kara Swisher]

Wow, good thing they.

[Scott Galloway]

And the whole. And I said, I'm kidding. Lisa, who's your manager, will tell you what it is. And she called me and said, you can't ever discourage people from taking vacation. And that's what you were doing. And I said, I understand. By the way, I need to leave Gartner immediately.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh my God, you're calling me.

[Kara Swisher]

I can't take a fucking joke.

[Scott Galloway]

Because you know what I usually do at an all hands, Kara? What I usually say, look, many of you may have realized I was out for a week, I was in a terrible accident and my inhibition sensors were deeply damaged. So there's gonna be some locker room talk, some interpret appropriate touching, but I hope you are patient with me on my journey back. No, I love that my inhibition sensors have been damaged. There's gonna be.

[Kara Swisher]

Your inhibition centers were damaged at birth, Scott Galloway.

[Scott Galloway]

There's gonna be inappropriate.

[Kara Swisher]

You don't even have the sensors.

[Scott Galloway]

I hope you help me on my journey.

[Kara Swisher]

You have zero sensors. Let me tell you my story. One time when I was at the New York Times. I had tweeted something about some terrible experience on United, which, by the way, I'm a global services person there now. Someone from the New York Times, pretty high up on the frigging masthead and was like, this looks like you're asking for something from United. Which I wasn't. I was just griping, like, my usual gripery. And I was like, no, I'm not. I don't want it. Well, they could, because we're the New York Times. They said, well, I don't work for you. So they're like, we'd like you to take it down. And I'm like, no. And they're like, yeah, but we want you to take it down. I go, no. And I finally was like, you are a person on the masthead, and you're spending your weekend yelling at me about a tweet of which I refuse to take down because I think what you're saying is ridiculous. That's. That's why I like being independent. I'm just telling you.

[Scott Galloway]

This is why I'll take that and raise you 50. I'm booked to do a TV show for Bloomberg Television. They're gonna go on original TV.

[Kara Swisher]

Classic.

[Scott Galloway]

And I do these TV shows. It's Covid. We sell out advertising for this thing. We have five shows in the can. The guy in charge, the producer, says, can you do some promos? I'm like, no problem. Go into my studio, flip on the lights. I do a promo, including one where I'm the construction worker from the guy from the village People. You can find it, folks, on the Internet, without my shirt. I talked about my favorite one night that I'm a construction worker and my favorite one night stand is called the nut and bolt. And then I just tweet these things out. I don't ask them for permission. I just tweet them out. And I say, here comes the show. And the producer calls me back and goes, we're horrified, but this is exactly what we need. They liked it. And then the next day, he calls me and says, basically says, houston, we have a problem. And what had just happened is Bloomberg. Well, Bloomberg had just had a guy sitting around a round table inviting interns over when he was in a bathrobe open. And then they'd had another person groping people in the lunchroom or whatever. So they were very understandably sensitive to anything, and some of the journalists found it offensive. And so he called. He called me. I remember I was at the Beverly Hills of Del. He called me So I need you to do two things. One, I need you to tweet out that we didn't know you were doing this. And I'm like. And I'm like, no problem. You didn't. I did this on my own. And he said, and the second thing is, I need you to apologize. I'm like, nope, I'm not sorry. I don't think this is any way sexist, and if I apologize, it's going to do me no good and you no good. So the truth has a nice ring to it, but I'm not apologizing. And they came back with a list of. They said, okay, we can get through this. And they came back with a list of things I couldn't do. And my favorite was, no sex jokes, no expletives. But for some reason, they added in there. You can never mention Sheryl Sandberg. I thought that was so weird.

[Kara Swisher]

What?

[Scott Galloway]

Yes. They came back with 12 things. They're like, we're gonna get through this. But there are these things you can't do. You can't. Oh, no, I didn't. My other one, like, number nine was, you can't reference your erectile dysfunction ever again. They came back with 12 random things. But my favorite was, you can never mention Sheryl Sandberg, Shel Sandberg, and your erect. And I called them back, true story. And I said, you know what? I called my team into a room and I said, this is what they want us to do, and this is gonna be great for us. And we've sold advertising. And I was kind of ready to sign up for it. And the team said, fuck it. Let's let our freak flag fly. Let's not do it. And I called the guy back and said, this is a true story. I said, there's not a fit here. Let's fold our tent. We did five goddamn shows and they never made. They never saw the light of day.

[Kara Swisher]

Five shows. Can I just say, who stuck with you during that time?

[Scott Galloway]

That's right. You stood by me. You stood by your man.

[Kara Swisher]

I did.

[Scott Galloway]

And they were like, it was ridiculous.

[Kara Swisher]

And do I let you do erectile dysfunction? Do I let you reference your never gonna get in the Scott's jam.

[Scott Galloway]

That's right.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, let's move on because this is interesting, because we like being independent. And this is why CBS insists the decision to cancel the Late show with Stephen Colbert was purely financial, had nothing to do with the other matters happening at Paramount, which is acquiescent Donald Trump and paying him a bribe. Colbert broke the news last week that his show would end next May. This was just days after calling Paramount's $16 million settlement with Trump a big fat bribe, which is accurate. Also worth noting, Skydance CEO David Ellison met with Trump appointed FCC chair Brandon Carr earlier in the week. I'm not sure those things were related because he's in the middle of a merger. The Writers Guild of America is calling for an investigation, calling the cancellation appears to be a bribe decurring favor with the Trump administration to pass this merger. Senators Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren are also questioning the timing and motivation of the decision. Without proof, I'm gonna be pretty fair here because I don't know what's going you think is happening. There were reports which we all know about. They acknowledge the financials. Ad revenue for Colbert has dropped 40% since 2018. The show had reportedly been losing $40 million a year. I'm not sure I believe those numbers. I think it's not making as much money and the salaries are high and Late Night is declining. No question. The other shows, obviously Kimmel and Fallon allegedly lose money. I don't know and I don't know if they're figuring in ancillary things or whatever may just be doing. I'd like to see the actual numbers myself before they make that claim. Daily show airs on Comedy Central, which is also owned by Paramount. But the others, Fallon and others. And Seth Meyers. Seth Meyers had to get rid of the band, I think in order to keep going. Covid hit these shows very hard and so did the fracturing of the monoculture that we used to have. Now everybody could do this. And our listened to by more people than I think. He had 2.4 million people watching him, which is a hefty sum. But still the economics weren't right, apparently. Your thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, first off, the Writers Guild association should announce an investigation about how they could be so fucking stupid as to go on strike for five and a half months from a position of total weakness. But anyways, okay. This is a situation where I merely thought, all right. Another example of our slow descent into fascism as the President puts pressure on media and attempts to leverage his FTC or DOJ approval in exchange for getting rid of a critic. I did the research and I think I'm wrong. I really do think this was a financial decision. If you look at the numbers, 2018, late night TV was 400 million. In advertising, it's gone to 200 million.

[Kara Swisher]

So in half. Yep.

[Scott Galloway]

Supposedly the numbers on this show is it costs 100 million to produce and it makes 60 million. It's losing 40 million a year. Do you know how many people work on Colbert? Do you know how many professionals they have? 200. So just let me. I never miss an opportunity to pat ourselves on the back. But let's compare the economics of our universe versus theirs. Pivot and the profit universe will do somewhere between 20 and 25 million next year. I would say we have between. Let's call it 15 at the most 15 full time employees. Well, there are some people at Vox on our ads. I have a bunch of people doing.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you're right. You're right.

[Scott Galloway]

Let's call it 15 people. 200 people at 60 million is $300,000 per employee. We're doing one and a half million dollars per employee and we're growing 20% a year. They're doing 300,000 per employee and shrinking 20% a year. And this is what I think happened, Kara. I think Skydance and I've been a part of this. When they acquired the company.

[Kara Swisher]

They have not yet acquired the company.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but during diligence and to get the deal closed. Part of the conditions on closing are like, look, you've got some problems here, including one show that is losing $40 million. We don't want to be the bad cops who come in and fire all these people. You need to do it. And so I think David Ellison.

[Kara Swisher]

That's what I'm guessing. That's what I'm guessing.

[Scott Galloway]

David Ellison. Yeah. David Ellison said, look, and this is as a function of closing. You want the existing management team to do all the dirty work. You don't want to show up and be the bad guys.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they may stay the management teams also. So they want a curry favor with the new owners. Presumably it happened at cnn. Remember David Zaslav? Cut. You remember CNN plus Scott?

[Scott Galloway]

I do, yes.

[Kara Swisher]

When they got very well.

[Scott Galloway]

Speaking of more shows that were canceled.

[Kara Swisher]

Remember when I didn't sign and I said they're going to gut it? And you were like, no, they're not. And I was like, yes, they are.

[Scott Galloway]

It's kind of television.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

My name and bright lights. But I generally think there's. This isn't the end of the Colbert Show, Kara. This is the end of late night television. Late night television.

[Kara Swisher]

He'll be fine. I think. I think he'll do well in this medium.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, he's a remarkably talented person.

[Kara Swisher]

Remarkably talented.

[Scott Galloway]

But this is a shitty business. America used to gather around the TV late. It was the last thing they did. Now they don't. And in addition let's look at the numbers. 4 million people were watching pre Covid. 2.4 million now. And even worse than that, only 10%'s in the core demographic. It's all old people. It's only about a quarter of a million people in the 18 to 54, which is the only people that advertisers want to reach. Do you realize this, what we're on today will reach as many people in the core demographic as Colbert show, but he's taking 200 people to do it. So now what might have happened is in terms of politically, he probably his revenues declined faster than Fallon or Kimmel because he was seen as being especially political. And the reason why Raging Moderates, one of my podcasts doesn't get the same CPM that we get is there are an increasing number of advertisers who will just not advertise on political shows. They're like any political show is two partisan.

[Kara Swisher]

That was always the case. Can I just say, we tried to do a code conference in D.C. and we couldn't put the numbers together. So we didn't do it it right. Because it was.

[Scott Galloway]

But I think a lot of people see Colbert as being especially political. And probably there are a number of large advertisers who just say Colbert is off limits for us. But this is an indication of a larger trend. When you need 200 people to produce 60 million in revenues and your revenues have been cut in half in the last six years and viewership, listenership, and you're losing 40 million bucks and you're about to get acquired. I bet Ellison said to whoever's in charge, you gotta deal with this problem.

[Kara Swisher]

Clean up your mask. Clean up your mask.

[Scott Galloway]

Clean it up.

[Kara Swisher]

One of the things that I think is interesting is that they do very well online, so does the Daily show, but it doesn't for people. Even though it does, you can't monetize it. That's the issue. It's hard, it's not impossible. But they're doing it for marketing, not monetization. When someone like Theo Vaughn or, or Rogan is doing it for money, like for real advertising. And so that's the difference there. And the other thing is, what's really interesting is I think Colbert would do well in podcasting. Look at Sean Hayes and those guys on Smart List or Amy Pollard's at the top of the podcast game right now, killing it. She's probably making a ton of money.

[Scott Galloway]

This new pot is doing well.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. So a lot of these people will find and not all of them, but A lot of them will find either podcasting or video podcasting or I could see Colbert doing a bunch of live shows. He'll do really well if he wanted to.

[Scott Galloway]

Conan. Conan's.

[Kara Swisher]

Conan's doing well.

[Scott Galloway]

Jon Stewart.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. They have definitely brought down costs because Jon's only on once a week. They have a larger cast, but of people who aren't paid as much. That's a way to go. One of the things Scott and I always talk about, revenues and costs have got to align. And whether you like it or not, you can't immediately say it's an acquiescence. I think it helps that it gives Trump an excuse. And he did, of course, as usual, because he's a crap hand bruised person. You know, I'm glad he was fired. I don't think he was fired as much as this isn't working as a business. And I don't think there was any feeling that Colbert wasn't funny, wasn't talented. I think they could have done it a different way in terms of telling him and letting people know. I don't necessarily think the Skydance people knew about it before. I just think they probably indicated in the same way that I believe David Zaslav must have indicated to the CNN people, we're gonna, you better do this because it was Jason Kylar that cut CNN plus, not Zaslav. Right. Is that correct? Or something like that? I don't remember, but it was. Maybe it was. Maybe.

[Scott Galloway]

I think it was Zaslav.

[Kara Swisher]

It was Zaslav, Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Supposedly Zaslav told them to stand down on cnn.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, they did. I knew about it. That's why I didn't sign.

[Scott Galloway]

And they said, sorry, it's not. You don't control us yet. The deal's not closed. We're moving forward with it. And then he showed up and said, bitch, I'm on top. And unplugged. It's unceremoniously, as a matter of fact, the night, on a Tuesday night, I talked to our producer, Scott Matthews, and Rebecca Culler, who I love, who's at MSNBC now, who's a huge talent in swimming upstream. Anyways, and Scott said, this is great news for the number one show. Granted, I was beating out Jake Tapper's book club. So we were the weakest strongman at the circus. And so I'm like, like, get the team on the phone. High five. With the number one weekly show on cnn. Plus, literally, arguably the weakest flex in the world. Next morning, I get a text from you. I'm in San Diego, are you all right?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm like, what the fuck? And I call you and I'm like, what's wrong? And you go, oh, you didn't see. And you forwarded me article. CNN plus Unplugged.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, unplugged. Yeah. You know, I had didn't sign with them because I had known. I had heard from the new owners that they were cutting it. So off the record, and they had offered me a pretty big contract and I just, just declined. I go, they're cutting you like there's no other way this is going down because they need to. Because of that ridiculous death.

[Scott Galloway]

I wasn't as confident as you. I thought that they needed to go subscription.

[Kara Swisher]

It was the easiest cut. It was the easiest of all.

[Scott Galloway]

Aren't they kind of bringing it back? Aren't they? Are.

[Kara Swisher]

They are. That's what they're doing. They're going to have to. They have to get in the streaming game. It's just how you do it and what economics. And as much as we love Stephen Colbert, we think he's an amazing talent. He will be just fine, by the way.

[Scott Galloway]

But let me tell you what happens, okay? Stephen Colbert, I think is making somewhere between 10 and they say between 10. I heard between 10 and 20 million. Okay, so 20 million. And by the way, worth every penny. He could make that in two to three years. He could be making that on a podcast with eight people and maybe 10 million. But where it works is you use those clips to promote your podcast. But it was like we fell into the same trap at the New York Times where we thought letting Google crawl our data that we would send people that we could mon. No. Google got 99.4 cents on the dollar for taking our content and running ads along the right rail and the traffic they sent us that we monetized with shitty banner ads didn't work. It doesn't work for them. It doesn't. I consume. I consume the best four minutes of late night on TikTok and I don't go, well, now I'm going to go watch the full 60 minutes on CBS tomorrow night at midnight. So the model, the late night model, it's pretty much.

[Kara Swisher]

I think it's over snl, which I think remains quite profitable.

[Scott Galloway]

But that's once a week, 70 minutes. It's a ton of talented people bringing together amazing. I mean, I think if you had. I think if those shows. And that's a model, maybe if they went to one night, one night a week, like the weekly recap and made that 60 Minutes, really outstanding. Best guests, you know that that might work, but nightly television, they just can't do it. They just can't do it.

[Kara Swisher]

Artists can also go direct. So could the book authors, so could they go to podcasts. They get more. When someone's on my podcast, they are like, oh my God, we saw the move. The move, the move is higher than those shows now, which is except for maybe like the view really goose both our books and stuff like that. But they're expensive. That's just the way they are. So we'll see. I think you're gonna see more of this. I think everyone's gonna be sharpening their knives at all these shows, if not cutting them completely. Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump tries to distract from Epstein by suing Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal. Good luck with that old crocodile, Trump. Support for this show comes from Adeo. Addio is an AI native customer relationship management system built specifically for the next era of companies. Companies. It's extremely powerful, adapts to your unique data structures and scales with any business model. They say setting up Adeo takes less than a minute and in seconds of syncing your emails and calendar, you'll see all your relationships in a full fledged platform, all enriched with actionable data. Addeo can enrich your business with real time customized reports featuring valuable data points. And the best part is you can build AI powered automations and use its research agents agent to tackle some of your most complex processes. So you can focus on what matters, building your company, join industry leaders like Flatfile, Replicate, Modal and more. You can go to addio.com pivot and get 15% off your first year. That's attio.com pivot.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

In the time it takes us to say we're using Folger's instant coffee, seamlessly blended with water and ice. A splash of whatever kind of milk is your thing.

[Scott Galloway]

And gotta get that caramel drizzle all.

[Kara Swisher]

To make a toasty roasty caramel iced coffee. You could be enjoying it. Every damn sip of it damn right it's Folgers instant. Scott, we're back. President Trump is suing Rupert Murdoch in the Wall Street Journal for defamation over his story about the birthday letter that Trump allegedly sent to Jeffrey Epstein in 2003. The article claimed Trump wrote a letter that included a suggested drawing for Epstein's 50th birthday. Trump is denying that it was saying, quote, I don't draw pictures. In fact, he does. There's a dozen of them available for you to look at, and he's not bad. The lawsuit names Murdoch, Dow Jones, News Corp. News Corp. CEO and two reporters and seeks at least $10 billion in damages. Trump has ordered Attorney General Pam Bondi to produce grand jury testimony tied to the Epstein case, which is a nothing burger. Bondi has asked federal judge to unseal the transcripts. Trump and Murdoch are two men who love a legal fight. I'm betting on Murdoch. And also, just so you know, you said last week Trump would do all manner of things to distract from Epstein, which he's been doing. This is included in it. Additional lawsuit. He's now threatened to hold up stadium deal for the Washington Commanders. He also posted a bizarre AI video of Obama getting arrested. And you put up a number of these. He's continuing to blame Democrats for the Epstein men. Let's listen to what Senator Amy Klobuchar had to say to Jake Tapper on CNN this weekend. The president blaming Democrats for this disaster. Jake is like that CEO that got caught on camera blaming Coldplay. Okay? Like this is his making. He was president when Epstein got indicted for these charges and went to prison. He was president when Epstein committed suicide. And also he was a close friend of Epstein's for many, for a decade or more. Any thoughts on this? And the last thing, CBS, you go. The poll finds that 75% of Americans disapprove of the administration's handling of matters related to Epstein. So it's still, as I notice, sticking around. It's not going away. And this weekend, pretty much every major newspaper had very, very detailed stories, which I told you, linking Trump to Epstein. So it's solidifying at least the minds of regular people about how close they were. So what do you think about the Murdoch thing and then the distraction element?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, in reverse order, we said this last week and it's happening every 24 hours. Put out something stupid that the media will go for. So. Well, I won't let you change the name of. I won't approve a new stadium unless you take the commanders back to the Redskins. Stupid makes no sense. The media goes for it. That's okay. First off, we should just refer to it the new team there or the team there as the Washington Epstein. And it's not Rosie o', Donnell, it's Rosie O. Epstein. We just need to make sure that he knows this is not working and he has no intention of demanding that they change the name. This is unlike the other cases, nuisance lawsuits. I think he knows. I think Murdoch does not scare easily. This is actually, I think, good for Murdoch because it gives people the impression that Murdoch and his properties are somewhat bipartisan and somewhat.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, that one particularly. Well. Yeah, but he's just a slap. Yeah, I think he uses different properties for different things. Like Fox News has been very slow on reporting this stuff. The Epstein stuff. New York Post is just either attacking Mamdani or not really doing anything here. The Journal does. I have to say he's done a great job shepherding the Wall Street Journal and letting them be. But go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

When the Wall Street Journal puts out this reporting, it's similar to when it. The Wall Street Journal was the first, I think the first media outlet where people thought, wow, this reporting lends me to believe that the wealthiest man in the world is in fact a drug addict. Because the general sense of the Wall Street Journal is that they are serious journalists and that if they put out something like this, they have double, double and triple checked it and they have, you know, they are not, not just throwing out shit for clicks. So this really hurts the President. I think the President says if I challenge it, it gives the impression that it's not true. But I don't think this will end up like the other cases where they end up settling. I think Rupert Murdoch is going to stick up the middle finger and this.

[Kara Swisher]

Will be dismissed, which is what he wanted to do. He's tried to get at him. There's an idea because Fox News is so supportive of the President that Murdoch is. Murdoch is not all that discovery during that last trial where they were very culpable of what they did around Dominion System, it was all these emails saying Trump's a fucking asshole. Including from Tucker Carlson, by the way, all the internal emails and stuff. I think that Murdoch has been sitting in the shallows like an old crocodile that he is waiting to get at Trump. He does not like this Republican Party. He likes the Republican Party he can control, which is the old Republican Party. Right. And so Trump is not that. And so I think he's just been waiting here very much so. Bob Woodward was sued by Trump and The judge knocked it out. He's not giving. There's nothing. Someone was like, oh, what about Paramount giving. What about CVS giving? There's nothing he can do to Rupert Murdoch. He can't really pull someone's like they could pull Fox's. Good luck with doing that. Like the stuff. He can put the screws even to Elon, although it's hard because of the. We'll talk about that in a minute. It's harder to put the screws to Murdoch of the things. He's also 109 years old. I don't think this old crocodile gives a fuck. And he wants Trump gone so he can then control Vance or whoever the next one is his company. He wants control of that person and he wants Trump gone. And so I think he's not going to give at all. I'd be shocked if he gave. He wouldn't allow it to happen at that public. I can see all the problems at Fox because they're so sloppy. They're not sloppy at the Wall Street Journal and would never have published this without all the receipts. Never. In my experience there. Spectacular journalism goes on there because old.

[Scott Galloway]

Media is held to a much higher standard because of Section 230 where Facebook can circulate massive rumors about Dominion and Smartmatic that makes what was said on Fox look like a dumpster fire and be immune from that. And then Fox has to pay 3/4 of a billion dollars. You can bet the lawyers and Rupert Murdoch had said, okay, any story like this, it better be right because I've got a three quarter of a billion dollar scar from when we decided to tell our anchors to continue to lie about this knowing that it was a lie. They have been. Their eyebrows have been singed and burnt off. So the fact that they were willing to say this in a pretty aggressive. I mean it just makes the President look bad, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. They did a follower this week about more about their relationship. But go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

And so what he said is one, I want a distraction and two, he needs a distraction every 24 hours and that's what he's doing right now. Every 24 hours he is in a room with AI and his comps people saying testing all these ridiculous stories. Do they make us look like idiots? Will we win in court? Doesn't matter. Will it distract cnbc, cnn, MSNBC and everyone else from. From Epstein's and they'll talk about this letter, firing Chairman Powell, changing the name of a football. I mean these things are so ridiculous. If anyone believes this is anything but a weapon of mass distraction. I don't think they understand this guy's, this guy's strategy. And this is that again, this, unlike the other ones, he has no leverage. Like you said, Rupert does not scare easily. He doesn't care. He's going to be dead soon. I mean, he's, he, this will be. And also, I think Rupert's the big winner here. I think it comes across as kind of pursuing the truth and as a legitimate, you know, overseeing legitimate journalism. I think, I think news corps, or Rupert, if you will, is the big winner here.

[Kara Swisher]

He has long backed editors at the Journal. When they did those, Kristen Grein, who's now at the New York Times, they did those initial Elon stories. That was a big step out, like when they did that. And they are, they do not remember. They did the one where Elon had slept with Sergey wife thing. They stepped out on that one. And they stepped. They will. And they will only do it when it is locked down at the Wall Street Journal. And again, Emma Tucker, the current editor, is fantastic. They've had great editors in the past. He does back people at that place at Fox. I think he lost control of the situation. Either it was Roger Ailes or Tucker Carlson or Bill O'Reilly. That's a different, different beast for him and a different tool. He's doing a different. And the New York Post is just to write fantastic headlines. It's meant, it's kind of, to me, the New York Post is him in many ways. But at the Wall Street Journal, he's been a good owner. He's been a very good owner. He's never, never once. And I talked to Rupert a lot when I was covering the Internet and he really did not like the Internet people. Never once did he try to pressure me in any way. He'd call and say, what do you think of this version? But I'll tell you, I haven't really been pressured at many places. I don't think I have, actually. Oddly enough, it doesn't happen, folks. It just doesn't happen. It doesn't happen just because the person's Rupert Murdoch. He's a very good owner of the Wall Street Journal. And we'll see what happens after he dies. That's gonna be a shit show, but we'll see. Okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, why Trump can't seem to quit SpaceX. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal.

[Scott Galloway]

So there goes my big idea for the commercial.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

Than windows is you.

[Kara Swisher]

Visit blinds.com now for up to 40% off site wide plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply. Hi everyone, this is Kara Swisher. This week on my podcast on with Kara Swisher, I caught up with two professional ass kickers, writer E. Jean Carroll and attorney Robby Kaplan. The duo that took Donald Trump to court for sexual assault and defamation and and won twice. Here's how Carol describes what happened in that Bergdorf Goodman dressing room in 1996. He was being very funny. It was light, it was funny, it was joshing, it was witty. And then it just turned dark. This is exactly what Donald Trump did to the country. We all laughed at him. We all said he was a clown. We all said he was absolutely an empty suit and laughed our asses off. And then boom, it turned dark. It was a great conversation. You're going to want to hear it. Just search for on with Kara Swisher wherever you get your podcasts. Scott, we're back. The US government just can't quit Elon Musk. A review of SpaceX's government contracts spurred by Musk's feud with President Trump, found most were vital. The review found SpaceX to be critical to the Defense Department and NASA. For example, SpaceX's Crew Dragon spacecraft is the only US vehicle certified to fly astronauts to and from the space station. And the company's high speed Internet through Starlink provides national security satellite capabilities. You've mentioned the security risk. Here they are trying to find ways to be less reliant on Musk. It is not new to the Trump administration. This was a concern of the Biden administration. It's a concern when any vendor gets too much power, as it should. But he's created a product that people have. Why don't you talk a little bit about this? I had said he's gonna have a hard time getting rid of Musk. What I found offensive is his attempts to get rid of Musk were not because. Because he's trying to protect the US government. It's because he was mad at him. So that's my issue with what he was doing here.

[Scott Galloway]

I think the best and the worst product of the last couple years are from the same person. The worst product is, hands down, the cybertruck just looks ridiculously stupid. Not well made, stupid price point, stupid positioning. Supposedly sales are like 90% off of projections. The best product product is Starlink. It's just the delta between everything else in Starlink is staggering on what could be more important. That broadband is like water. And this guy's figured out a way to find more potable water at a lower price. It costs. And if you were to kind of reverse engineer, well, what's the secret behind Starlink? 87%. It's 87% of launches, actually 52% of all global orbital launches and 84% of all satellites by mass are from one company. And 87% of launches in 2024 in the US were SpaceX. And they're basically launching, doing a launch every 2.1 days because the Falcon Heavy rocket can put a kilogram into space for 2,000 bucks. And the near closest, like the European equivalent, I think it's Ariane 5 or something, it's $9,000. And NASA is kind of even like prohibited because they're not allowed to blow up rockets on the launch pad. They just can't do that as a government agency. So he has a staggering lead and it has led to a situation where 2/3 of the low orbit satellites are controlled by one person. And his blood sugar might decide one day to turn off battlefield communications technology. I think where this ends up up one. I mean the reality is it would be fair to say the US doesn't have a space program. It has SpaceX. And that is if we need to bring astronauts home from the space station. We got to call Elon. If we want the most sophisticated communication systems in the world and we want to offer it to Ukraine to push back on the Russians, we got to call Elon. If you're looking, I mean, Kuiper has to call Elon to put their satellites into space. I think where this goes is, I think this is a monopoly that has avoided or evaded the real scrutiny of the FTC and the doj. I don't think that's going to happen any longer. But at the same time, they don't want to give up that lead and that confidence. I think where we end up is something along the lines of where we've ended up with telco. And that is, I believe There are only two or three networks nationally because they're very expensive to build. AT&T and Verizon. I don't know if T Mobile is a third, if they rent, but basically the DOJ and eft, is that right? Basically what the DOJ and the FTC said is like, okay, we understand the rationale for monopoly. Basically, cable companies can convince local regulators that only one company can afford to build out all this fiber. It should be us. So then regulators say, fine, you're regulated monopoly. We have a bureaucrat who looks at your pricing. And then what they did with the telco networks is they forced them to rent them out at an economically fair price to other MVNOs. So, for example, example, Mint Mobile, which is one of the fastest growing telcos in the nation, or was one of the fastest growing telcos in the nation, is on either AT&T or T Mobile's network. I think that's where this goes. Carol, I don't think you want to kneecap SpaceX. I think what they're going to do is similar. I think they're going to legislate what's happened with Kuiper and say, fine, you have a monopoly, you keep on trucking, you keep having the most valuable private company in the world, but you have to lease out your launch capability to other companies.

[Kara Swisher]

Makes sense. That completely makes sense. I think any government, whether it's the Trump administration, any administration, Democratic administration, you cannot have one person, especially a single person like Elon Musk, given all the other issues in charge of these things. It's the same thing with Lockheed or whoever. We have to have more competition and that's a way to do it. That's exact. Scott's exactly right. And we do have a more vibrant cell phone. You do have choices because they can rent it out. It doesn't really matter. It's how they market it. What customer service is not the commodity, its which is connection. Right. So yes, I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I am bothered that they, even if I don't like Elon Musk, that they decided to go after him because he didn't get along with the President. That should not ever happen. It happens all the time, I guess, but kind of grotesque trying to get rid of him, even if it's right to try to sort of get rid of him or at least create more competition to review things just to screw with someone. Seems un American to me.

[Scott Galloway]

It is. So, such an incredible security. Starlink amongst other things. Right. They turned off Starlink access for Ukraine during a raid on Russian naval ships in 2022. This is one man deciding to basically reshape what might happen in terms of the invasion, the successful or unsuccessful invasion of Europe. The American military has been quietly building a dependence on Starlink. Most notably our most important, in my opinion, our most impressive weapons is our ability to deliver massive of like nation like violence anywhere in the world through our. Well, not our satellites how we communicate, but our satellites which our carrier squadrons depend upon. What if all of a sudden we deploy our carriers to a hotspot, even a hot war, and he decides to turn off Starlink? How do you think these carriers defend against incoming drones?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you have to have other capabilities. 100%, especially as we go cyber with war, which is where it's headed, obviously.

[Scott Galloway]

The US government also rewarded SpaceX a $537 million contract for Starlink services for Ukraine's military. So the most impressive component of Musk's universe and the most dangerous monopoly in the world right now is the same company, it's SpaceX and specifically Starlink. And I think you want to incent him, give him the economic upside of this incredible engineering feat and the fact that good for him. He's established monopoly power. But for security reasons and economic reasons, I think you're going to a, on a military level, ensure that he has no decision capability and there is no off switch within his ketamine lace fingers. And two, that other companies have access to that infrastructure such that he just competitors.

[Kara Swisher]

They have been sending Gwynne Shotwell here. She was apparently here for a meeting with the Trump people. She is the CEO of SpaceX. More Gwynne Shotwell, less Elon Musk. She's well respected within the defense industries, has been a quiet competent executive though she defends him for bad behaviors.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me ask you this. Someone asked me who was the. I'm in this Netflix show I'm working on. They said who's the most powerful female tech executive? And I said, Gwen Shotwell, would you agree?

[Kara Swisher]

Gwen agree with that? Yes, I would, yeah. Yes, I would. Quiet, yes, 100%. But don't mention Sheryl Sandler. Because you're not allowed to under the terms of our.

[Scott Galloway]

Not allowed to, nor am I erectile dysfunction, nor.

[Kara Swisher]

And don't you dare make interruptions if I'm just a Sheryl Sandberg joke. Do not.

[Scott Galloway]

And they all said I couldn't make any religious references.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm like, what? Anyways, have you met me?

[Kara Swisher]

You are completely godless. I don't know what else to say anyway. And it's why I love you. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails.

[Scott Galloway]

The number one movie in the country is Superman. It might be the number one movie in the world.

[Kara Swisher]

Are you being serious right now?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. But not everybody is loving it.

[Kara Swisher]

Recently you've come under a lot of fire for what some might. It's a lot of fire. It's a lot.

[Scott Galloway]

Kellyanne Conway is mad about it.

[Kara Swisher]

The guy who stars as Superman had the audacity to say instead of fighting for truth, liberty and great values in America, he refused to say the last part.

[Scott Galloway]

Ben Shapiro is mad about it.

[Kara Swisher]

The reality that Hollywood is so far to the left that they cannot take a core piece of Americana and just say it's about America.

[Scott Galloway]

Even tv. Superman. Dean Cain is concerned. Look, don't try and make it all woke and crazy. What, if anything, is woke and crazy about the new Superman movie? On Today Explained. We are finally doing Dean Cain Explained. Come over and join us.

[Kara Swisher]

It's TODAY Explained. What's going on, my boys and in some cases, gals. Recently one of you emailed us with this request.

[Scott Galloway]

You've got mail.

[Kara Swisher]

Hello, I'm an avid listener and I strongly believe you should cover the story of Curtis Yarvin. It's important to explore who he is and how he has influenced the MAGA and the Tech Bros Movement. Curtis Yarvin is a very online far right philosopher whose ideas include the fascinating, the esoteric, the absurd, the racist and so on. Six months into the Trump administration, there's evidence that he is influencing the MAGA movement and Even President Trump. J.D. vance knows him and likes him. Elon consulted him about this third party idea. Yarvin can take some credit for inspiring Doge. And as you'll hear ahead, one of Trump's most controversial doesn't even begin to cover it. Ideas may have come from Yarvin or someone who reads his substack. I can almost guarantee you that Trump does not. Everything's computer Today explained weekday afternoons.

[Scott Galloway]

Hey, this is Peter Kafka, the host of Channels, a show about media and tech and what happens when they collide. And this may be hard to remember, but not very long ago, magazines were a really big deal. And the most important magazines were owned by Conde Nasty, the glitzy publishing empire that's the focus of a new book by New York Times reporter Michael Grinbaum. The way Conde Nast elevated its editors.

[Kara Swisher]

The way they paid for their mortgages.

[Scott Galloway]

So they could live in beautiful homes.

[Kara Swisher]

There was a logic to it, which.

[Scott Galloway]

Was that Conde Nast itself became seen as this kind of enchanted land. You can hear the rest of our chat on channels wherever you listen to your favorite media podcast.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, let's hear someone's and fails. Would you like me to go first?

[Scott Galloway]

You go first.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. My fail. I have so many In N Out billionaire owner. Her name's Lindsay Snyder. She's a granddaughter of the founders. I love an In N Out burger. My kids love In N Out. We've gone there many, many, many dozens and hundreds of times. And when lived in California. It's moving. It's expanding. It's moving into the South. Eventually it'll get to the east Coast. Prob. She's moving to Tennessee, blaming challenges, running her business and raising her family in California. Let me just say, Lindsay, I get it. You want to move to Tennessee. She's quite. She's a. They're, they're. They're conservative, is being kind. They're quite on that side, quite far to the right. I still like your burgers, Lindsay, but my business is California made you major family's business. If you're going to leave, just leave or stay and help fix it in the way you want to. I just think these people leaving the state, even if there's lots of challenges, and I completely agree. The lack of gratitude, especially since you stick religious things on your thing, is profound. California made you. You have a California vibe to you. You can't just take what you want and leave and then kick it on the way out. By the way, a lot of those tech executives who left and kicked California are back in California because it's hot in Austin and it's hot in Miami and you just can't make fetch happen in many of those places. So. So you move wherever you want, honey, and your burgers are fantastic. But stop kicking a state that really did make your family as wealthy as it is. That's my issue with her. Again, please eat it in and out. But Lindsay, you're ungrateful and terrible in that regard. In my positive thing, I would say everyone needs to watch the Gilded Age this season. It's so good. If you like wealth, porn and all this stuff. Carrie Coons plays Bertha. I just love her. Every single person on that show. I love. And it's really fun. If you want to sort of live in another building essentially and watch them manipulate each other in all kinds of early America. The third season is really hitting its stride and it's super soapy also and really fun. And they do a great job on costumes. It's the same guy who did, I believe, Downton Abbey. It's the same guy who did Downton Abbey. It's great. It's really fun. And I'm really enjoying the third season along with the recent season of the Sex and the City spinoff. And just like that. People are a lot of hate watching it, but it's totally enjoyable. Same thing. HBO is enjoying it and it is. People are hate watching it.

[Scott Galloway]

So awful.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, but I'm telling you, it's like going up in the ratings because it's like people are hate watching it or whatever. The last episode was actually quite good. I like Sarah Jessica Parker. I love her, actually. And I just think it's doing really well. I like, look, it's winning, so whatever. However, winning. Both of those shows are doing really well for hbo. Good job, hbo.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I've just looked at. I haven't watched the Gilded Age. Carrie Kuno, I thought, gave the best monologue in the White Lotus. She's in it, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. And Cynthia Nixon's in both the Sex and the City one and also this one she plays. She's in both shows. Anyway, it's great. It's a great show. It's a great show. Terry Coons is so good.

[Scott Galloway]

My win is. I just interviewed Governor Whitmer, Gretchen Whitmer, and it just struck me every time I talk to. I think it's so easy to be really cynical about our elected officials. I think when you get to. When you talk to a lot of these people, you know, raised by a single mother, two daughters, three stepsons, you know, she's very open about. Didn't have her shit together in high school, went to Michigan State, then got her act together, went to law school. And it's just a very impressive person. And it just reminded me that there really are a lot of people who are give up a lot of economic upside to be great public servants. And I enjoyed the conversation with her. So I don't know. My win is Governor Whitmer. And Michigan does a pretty good job of being pretty bipartisan. They have economic growth there. They good quality of life trying to keep affordability or, you know, building a lot of housing, great universities.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyways, go Michigan. Do you think she'll run? Just curious. From talking to her, I don't think she will.

[Scott Galloway]

I assume that anyone who calls me and comes on my podcast is running for president.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

Why would they do that? To hang out with, like, my charming widow.

[Kara Swisher]

She likes a good penis joke, I'm sure.

[Scott Galloway]

She spent an hour and a half on my podcast with me. Anyone who takes an interest in me is presidential, usually asking for money or planning for president.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, maybe both.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, I've immediately heard from public broadcasting. What's it called? Pbs? Npr, kbs? Npr, cbs.

[Kara Swisher]

Pbs.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, Ed, the Corporation for Public. As soon as I said I was donating money, immediately, that minute. Good for them.

[Kara Swisher]

They called you. Good for them.

[Scott Galloway]

I got a nice email from the director of development saying I'm here to facilitate the wire.

[Kara Swisher]

The wire transfer.

[Scott Galloway]

And then said, we'd love. We'd love to set up a call and hear about your vision. And I'm like, oh, God, here we go. Here we go.

[Kara Swisher]

Here's the check.

[Scott Galloway]

Here you go. Anyways, my win is the great state of Michigan and Governor Whitmer. My fail is I'm really on this thing. I think we should. I'd like to see a Democrat or somebody propose legislation that unless it's in the agency of a military operation or a national security threat, I just don't think any civic employee should ever be allowed to wear masks. Masks. I find if you look at what's going on, the Obama administration was actually deporting 2-3x per month, the number of immigrants as the Trump administration. So what do we have here? We have something that is ineffective, that is purely for performance and fear. And when a government is now getting more funding than the FBI just to instill fear in citizens and create distractions and in cosplay macho, you gotta think, well, not only is that strange, but also the thing that leads to bad behavior and creates that atmosphere of fear that is ineffective is a lot of it is these masks. And I've been thinking a lot about identity. I just don't think people who we pay to enforce the law, to perform a civic function should be hiding their identity.

[Kara Swisher]

Agree. That's the life they've chosen.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, look, if you're a Navy SEAL doing special ops, I get it. If you're.

[Kara Swisher]

If you're a pilot, agent.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, whatever it might be, I get it. But if you're showing up to Home Depots, take The fucking mask off. I want to see who you are. I want to see how you equate yourself. I want to see that you have some sort of fidelity to the law and just hold yourself to a certain level of humanity when people know it's a pretty basic standard to hold your actions to your identity. And the people who should be most, who should have the most responsibility for that are the people charged with upholding our laws and giving people confidence that their tax dollars and their government are acquitting themselves in an honorable, decent way anyways. And by the way, I don't think if you're engaging in hate speech on campus, I'm not sure you should be allowed to wear a mask either. And I don't know if you can enforce that. But I would like to see, see the chancellors of universities say, if you show up and just to be clear, show your face.

[Kara Swisher]

Show your face.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Look, if you want to show up and start saying things, masks are not allowed.

[Kara Swisher]

That's probably less enforceable. Probably the other one is, too. Probably. But I agree, government employees certainly should.

[Scott Galloway]

There you go. When's the last time you ate it? In n out?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, just the last time I was in San Francisco. I eat it all the time, every time I. My brother lives. And when I go see Jeff, he has one when I go south to Silicon, my kids love it. I have the one with the lettuce. What's it called when you eat it with just lettuce?

[Scott Galloway]

Animal style.

[Kara Swisher]

No, animal style. That's what Alex eats. That's when you have all that crap on it. Alex eats animal style. That has all kinds of. I don't have the heart for it, but it's great. It's wonderful. Their shakes are good. Their fries die in five seconds, but they're delicious in that five seconds that exists. I love them. I still think she should be grateful to California and stop pissing on it. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to send a question for the show or call 85551, pivot. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, Last week on with Kara Swisher, I spoke with writer and former advice columnist E. Jean Carroll and her lead attorney, Roberta Kaplan, two badasses. Since Trump started defaming Carroll, she's gotten hundreds, if not thousands of threats, including death threats. But she's not backing down and she's waiting to get her money. And she's closer than ever to getting the payment. We'll see about the second, but it looks like she probably will get them. Let's listen to a clip. I don't care if they shoot me. I don't care. I'd like to get shot in the arm. I'd like to get shot. I don't want to be shot in the head and dead. I don't care. I do not care. I want everybody in the country to get off their lazy asses and walk outside, look at their neighbors. That's what I'd like people to do. It's stupid to be afraid. Why live your life that way? I've been here 81 years.

[Scott Galloway]

Years.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not gonna waste the last of it worrying about that guy in marmalade colored makeup. I really like her.

[Scott Galloway]

Go girl.

[Kara Swisher]

Go girl. She's so badass. She's listen to it. She's joyful and she won her cases. Both jury trials. And he keeps making trouble. I think that shows you. Roberta Kaplan did an amazing job. She also won against the assholes in Charlottesville. She's a winner in many ways. So we'll see. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show is produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Jude Burrows, Mia Silvera and Dan Shalon. Nishak Kurua is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. Have a great rest of the week.