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- [00:01]
A
Support for today's show comes from Attio, the aicrm. If you've ever used a CRM and thought, why does this feel like a second job? Attio is worth a look. ATIO is the AICRM that builds itself. You connect your email and calendar, and it pulls in every company, every contact, and every interaction already organized in one place. From there, it keeps itself up to date. It understands your customer calls, adapts to how your business works, and the AI agents take action in the background so you can focus on what matters. If you need an intelligent CRM that scales and grows with your business from day one, that's Atia. Go to attio.com pivot and you'll get 15% off your first year. That's a T T I O.com pivot what if you could monitor the health of your career? For most people, it starts strong. A new job where anything's possible. But somewhere along the line, your career flatlines. You need to get to Strawberry Me, where a certified career coach will bring it back to life by putting together a plan for you to get ahead, either at your current job or a new one. Go to Strawberry Me Unstuck and get 50% off your first coaching session.
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B
This winter. The cold and flu have been especially bad, and the culprits, well, they're everywhere.
- [01:24]
A
Literally, the entire planet is just packed with viruses that are infecting everything, and I mean literally everything, even other viruses.
- [01:33]
B
This week on Explain It To Me from Vox, those pesky microbes getting us sick and how they might also be helping us stay well. New episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.
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A
If HBO is cocaine and Netflix is edible, CBS is literally like fiber supplement.
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B
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.
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A
And I'm Scott Galloway.
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B
How you doing, Scott?
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A
I'm doing well. How are you?
- [02:05]
B
This has been quite a week. What's going on in this country is really disturbing on so many levels. It's been disturbing. I don't know. How are you doing? How's everything going? How are you feeling?
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A
No, I feel better. Yeah, everything's good. It's good to be in New York.
- [02:21]
B
Yeah. What are you doing in the city? The greatest city in the world?
- [02:23]
A
Oh, God. Whenever I'm here, I've got, like, a ton of. I mean, my professional center of gravity is in the US So whenever I'm here, it's just like meeting after meeting after meeting, so. And I'm doing a meeting with the team tonight from propaganda markets. And we have our meeting tomorrow, our big strategy meeting. So we do just, you know, stop.
- [02:46]
B
Yeah, we're being strateg. It's called strategery. Just so you know. Strategi.
- [02:51]
A
Nice.
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B
Do you have any big ideas that you're gonna bring to bear?
- [02:54]
A
Big, big ideas.
- [02:55]
B
Fan dancing. I don't know. Obviously our couture this year turned out very well.
- [02:59]
A
Yeah.
- [03:00]
B
Our version of a tour. And it was very profitable and fun also, most importantly. But we have to think of something cool. Any listeners who have ideas of what you want Scott and I to do? Pole dancing show about gay hockey players. Whatever launches.
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A
I think the next tour should involve White Tiger.
- [03:21]
B
Oh, you're gonna see.
- [03:22]
A
This is a little puppy. We just got. We just got Bobo. This is his first time on stage. He's very.
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B
Did you ever see like all that stuff? Roy and Zigfried?
- [03:37]
A
I never went to the Tiger shows. No. I always got talked into another type of performance down the road.
- [03:41]
B
Oh, right. Yeah. Okay. All right. I love them, I love them, I love them. Anyway, anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, so let's get started. Donald and I can't believe I'm saying this. Is threatening to invoke the Insurrection act as anti ICE protests intensify in Minneapolis, largely because they've been egged on by ICE itself. The latest protests in the city began when a federal officer shot a man in a leg on Wednesday, just a week after an ICE agent fatally shot 37 year old Renee Good. I don't quite know what to say. This is like they are from what the word in Washington is. Stephen Miller wants something that he can invoke the Insurrection act and then declare Marshall Law so they can't have midterm elections. That's the conspiracy theory running around Washington right now. And I gotta say they are causing the problem that you can look at these videos and see like absolutely. Pushing over old people, asking for people's papers. I feel like I'm in the middle of like a Nazi movie or something at this point. Thoughts?
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A
Well, we talked about this last time. The very founding of America was meant to avoid this. Not wanting a monarch that could unilateral unchecked power and start harassing and terrorizing the population is the basis of the founding of America. The question is, what do you do about it? And what's really disappointed me and I've been on the phone with a couple Democrats is I believe that people at ICE and the officials and administrators who have ordered them and created a context around this. I think that they potentially could be guilty of second or third degree murder, of manslaughter, of criminally negligent homicide and absolutely. Of assault. And what I would be doing very publicly in the Congress and Senate is passing two types of or proposing two types of laws which will not pass now. But should we have the kind of momentum we believe we're going to have in 26 and then in 28, make sure that these officials ordering this type of depraved behavior and the people executing it understand that this is absolutely a possibility. And those two bills are the following. One is criminal charges and resources that will be allocated to and vary with a fine tooth and comb. Go through all of this video and be willing to charge these individuals. And two, something that says potentially that for certain types of crimes, including anything with the word homicide in it, that from this point forward, once the pardons are no longer valid, there has to be. I do find that the Democrats, you know, the strongly worded letter kind of defines in my opinion. And Democrats will say, well, look, there's very little we can do. And I'm sympathetic to that because they do not. They're the minority in all three houses. I get it. But these folks need to be reminded very swiftly that, okay, the same overrun of judicial power and co. Equal branches of government that you've committed, we could do the same. But we're going to do it to quite frankly go. We believe the law just enforced as it is correctly, could put many of these people behind bars or at a minimum, impair their careers, which would be justifiable. And begin laying the groundwork.
- [07:03]
B
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that's hard is that they keep doubling down. Right. Like there was this. I'm sorry, it's a specious report from CBS News. No surprise at this point about they're.
- [07:16]
A
Relying less on experts and academics.
- [07:18]
B
Yes, I know.
- [07:19]
A
Speaking to you. God, I hated that.
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B
Don't make me go into that ridiculous disaster over there.
- [07:26]
A
Can I just rant on that for a minute, please?
- [07:28]
B
Go right ahead. Because you can. Nikki Glaser this for me, my friend.
- [07:31]
A
Go ahead. I actually like.
- [07:33]
B
She made a joke. I'm referencing a Golden Globet.
- [07:35]
A
I like the guy who's the next head of the anchor. I actually think he's a great pick. I think he's handsome, which I think could get.
- [07:42]
B
But go ahead.
- [07:43]
A
I think he's really solid. I think he's really handsome.
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B
I get it. It's all they could get. They were looking at elsewhere, but go ahead.
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A
And I assume that he's a good person because I like Katie to her and assume that anyone she decides to spend her life with is a good person. But that opening monologue, you know, it was fine except for the part. And we're going to less. We're going to rely. It's something along the lines. We're going to rely less on the academics and the experts and more on what the people think. That's saying, okay, we're going to start entertaining conspiracy theory and misinformation. And by the way, folks, the word expert in the US might as well be the word experiment. Meritocracy. And that is you can be a kid growing up in the poorest village outside of Hyderabad in India, and if you are just so fucking talented and hardworking and smart and end up at, I think it's called iit, you can end up being one of those experts at Harvard that they're not going to listen to, that knows more than anyone else in the world on MRNA vaccines. You can be the son of a single mother, lived and died an expert, and someday, quote, unquote, work your fucking ass off to be considered an expert in brand strategy. So this notion that they're not going to listen to expertise, it's like we want an excuse to impose political values or fucking Ouija boards or horoscopes or whatever trending on Twitter as opposed to listening to the people who've actually fucking earned it. And one of the great things about America is it is in fact a meritocracy. Sometimes it's a bit too much of a meritocracy. And that is the people who aren't talented or aren't fortunate live a very harsh life here. But be clear, meritocracy means capitalism, means expertise. People who are experts, science. Yeah. People who get paid a lot to provide input. So if we're not going with the experts and the academics, I don't mind. And they've done this forever. News does a lot of kind of quote, unquote, man on the street. Let's talk to people in the community and see how they feel at the barbershop at the diner. But we're going to start listening to them about vaccine safety. Not. Not epidemiologists who have written peer review research for the last 30 fucking years.
- [09:47]
B
Let me interject here, because I'm going to, because it's repulsive what's happening. I know you're being very kind to this guy, but he's done six or seven things that are really problematic. One is talking about more transparent than Walter Cronkite doing this kiss ass all the interviews. I'm so sorry but they're PR for the Trump administration is what they are. They're terrible interviews. And he has an opportunity given they're sucking up to do an actual tough interview. He is doing a disservice to in these interviews given that he's got this access.
- [10:16]
A
But it isn't any worse than Fox. I mean.
- [10:18]
B
Yes, exactly. Thank you. Fox is entertainment like this is CBS News saying he's more transparent than Walter Cronkite. We unapologetically love America. What does a news organization need to. That's not their job. We're going to do. We're going to give the one they did this week is really another one. He said this week was just equally idiotic. And there was a story in the New York Times that everyone should read like we want to be the news. News does not want to be the news reports the news. You know, this is a stunt. This is all stunts all the time flying across the country. I know a lot of people at CBS News, they're beside themselves is what's happening there. And it's depressing to watch. And this guy is doing it. I'm sorry. Whatever you think of him as a nice person and I think he probably is. I know Katie. Katie's terrific. But it doesn't matter. This is just a disservice. It's a state organization. It's a state media organization is what's happening. And this story. Let me get back to what we were talking about. This ICE officer has all these internal injuries. You get internal bleeding from or whatever. Internal bleeding from taking Advil. Everybody. We don't see this guy. There's no proof of it. And they just. All they do is say federal officials. Say it here, Pravda. Here's what we want you to say. It doesn't have any reporting involved in it. And in order to create this ridiculous. And everyone has seen the video that this guy had has. Was more hurt than her. I'm sorry, she's dead. And he has, I don't know a bruise then to be able facilitate that is really bad. And so I think what they're trying to do is create equalization and trying to sort of smear this woman who seems to have been in the PTA calling this whole thing about women wine moms, angry wine moms or white women who are smug. Lectured by men. White men who are smug who actually invented smug. It's just this equalization. And again, one person's dead, one person's shot in the leg and the others aren't. And I just, it's. I don't know what to say. And for a news organization to go along with that is really an embarrassment to the legacy of Walter Cronkite.
- [12:38]
A
Here's the good news. It's fucking irrelevant.
- [12:40]
B
Yes, it is. That's true.
- [12:43]
A
It's true. If HBO is cocaine and Netflix is edible, CBS is literally like fiber supplement.
- [12:49]
B
I mean, psyllium called Psyllium.
- [12:52]
A
If you were to visit one of their editorial meetings, right?
- [12:57]
B
Yeah.
- [12:58]
A
You'd go in and you'd see a giant whiteboard and they'd write, okay, our audience is tired, scared and eating a lot of soup. I mean, who cares?
- [13:07]
B
You're right, the numbers are really bad.
- [13:09]
A
Doesn't really fucking matter. What a Lower Middle income 83 year old Iowa who.
- [13:15]
B
I know, but Fox does it. Well, I have to say they do their heinous shit well.
- [13:19]
A
Well, they've gone full, full, you know, stripper poll, cosplaying, political news. I mean, and they're also very talented and they've leaned into.
- [13:27]
B
They're entertaining in a really heinous way, I would say. Anyway, you're right. No one, the numbers are down rather.
- [13:33]
A
I don't, I wouldn't even know how to find CBS online, although I have been watching. Wait, is Landman. That's cbs, That's Paramount.
- [13:40]
B
That's Paramount, Yeah.
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A
That shit's really good.
- [13:42]
B
But he's leaving. He went over to Universal.
- [13:45]
A
Yeah, but he produced Lamb. I really enjoyed.
- [13:47]
B
Yeah, that guy is super talented. I've tried to get him on my show. I love all his shows. I watched Yellowstone from the start, but they're all. He's leaving, going over to Universal because I don't know, some fuck up by the Yellowsons.
- [13:57]
A
Well, let me guess, more money? Anyway, it's good for him. But anyways, Landman is really good.
- [14:02]
B
But I want you to. Where do you think this goes from? I get that you want Democrats to speak out more, but what is the. I mean, cause the numbers for Trump are cratering on all this stuff. So it's obviously he's got to go to Martin, but here's the problem.
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A
The numbers are cratering for Trump. They've almost plunged to the levels of Democrats. It's like who are going up?
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B
Who are going up?
- [14:27]
A
Not a lot, Kara.
- [14:28]
B
Well, not with young men. No. There's a few polls out that show really significant shifts. But go ahead.
- [14:34]
A
It's the worst cocktail in the world for democracy. And that is you have a fascist who doesn't have a credible opposition. I just think we look weak and factless. I don't.
- [14:43]
B
I want you to think, focus on the fascists and not on the feckless for a minute.
- [14:48]
A
Well, I want to focus on being effective and what the fuck we actually need to do to push back on those fascists. And if you don't have an objective group of leaders emerging who are powerfully talking about creating a series of incentives to stop this bullshit, it doesn't matter, and just sitting around thinking, scolding them and saying, isn't this awful? And vote in 20, you know, 26. It's like, that's not exactly leadership. I want to see legislation of how we're going to track down and prosecute and indict and subpoena these people, including all the crypto scam and a series of laws or proposals and legislation that does not give, that retroactively can unmask protection from pardons because they have been so hugely abused. Unless you give these people the sense that there's a non zero probability that they will be held accountable for these actions, they're going to continue.
- [15:40]
B
All right, that's great.
- [15:41]
A
And we don't have anyone with the moral authority right now or the charisma or the leadership to stand up and quite frankly rally America more than the images they're seeing on social media. That just horrifies them anyway.
- [15:53]
B
Moving on. The US has started evacuating some troops from a base in Qatar ahead of a potential military conflict with Iran. Though Trump says he's been told the killing in Iran has stopped, no executions are planned, indicating he may moving away from taking military action. You know who, I don't know what's going to happen here. There's all this weird betting happening by individuals. Again, very similar to the Venezuelan invasion. There are insiders in the government making money off of these military actions and maybe influencing them too. That's another scary thing to think about. What do you imagine happening? And at the same time, Denmark, Greenland and their NATO allies, including France and Germany, are increasing the military presence in and around Greenland. I can't believe I'm saying this. The move comes in the wake of a meeting at the White House between J.D. vance, Marco Rubio and foreign ministers at Denmark and Greenland. The Danish foreign minister said the talks were constructive, but fundamental disagreement remains ahead of the meeting. Donald Trump posted on Truth Social that anything less and US control of Greenland is unacceptable feels very nerve wracking. At the same time, there was an interesting article, I forget where it was, that J.D. vance and Marco Ruby may be slow rolling this into the grass so that Trump, they don't want it to happen, this Greenland thing. And so they're just dragging it out so that Trump loses interest in the situation. But I don't seems very strange to go to war with France.
- [17:17]
A
I mean, first off, there's a few things here. The potential for insider trading is just so insane on polymarket and Kalshi right now. So polymarket right now puts the likelihood that Khomeini will be out of Supreme Leader before 2027 at 63%. So if you're part of the inner circle, and by the way, there's reports that they are transferring the senior leadership, is transferring millions of dollars out of Iran, which is a very helpful sign because I think they need to get the hell out. But if you know, okay, on Wednesday, we're all headed to Moscow. Easy way to make 50% on your money would be betting on one of these markets. So just be clear, folks. Just as the casino has figured out the odds of these numerical games that on average over time, they win, when you don't have inside information on these things, eventually you're playing at a disadvantage. The footnote here is the following or the disclosure. I have not had any substantive conversations before. I say that because this is such a hot topic with anyone senior in the Israeli government. This is pure speculation on my part, but I talk a lot about Israel. My background's in brand. And I would consistently get calls from people in Israel, in the government and in the private sector, saying, what can we do about our brand? The brand Israel is so terrible around the world. And the general belief is if you look at actually what we're doing relative to other wars, it's just being characterized unfairly. And we think a lot of it. We're shocked at how poorly our brand or how dramatically our brand is eroded. And I remember when I was a kid, the Israeli brand was one of the strongest brands in the world. And Tebbe, Munich, they were just seen as the good guys. They are no longer seen as the good guys. And so they're constantly calling and asking, what can we do about the brand? I think the most brand accretive move that Israel could do, the biggest opportunity for Israel right now would be to go in and do what they did when they decided to take out their air defenses or something along the same lines. And that is when they decided to take out their air defenses and basically Neuter Iran, who has been the primary sponsor of terror across the region for a couple decades. They said, okay, they are basically when our jets fly in the surface to air missiles, the air defense systems are operated by this group of people and there's six to eight people that need to give the order to fire missiles at alien aircraft. You know what they did that day? They killed them. They had targeted assassinations. Within like an hour, six of the eight were dead. And then when the radar since these F15s flying in, there was no one to give the order. And I know that sounds really macabre and ugly, but in my opinion these are murderers right now. I think if they were, it's clear that the Mossad has deeply penetrated soft assets at the highest level in Iran. But coordinated military strikes of centers of civilian suppression with the US Air Force and on the ground, soft assets that wreak havoc across what is a murderous IRGC right now. I think it's not only geopolitically very smart over the long term, but I think would be very good for a brand Israel right now.
- [20:27]
B
Well, they've got a lot of things to do.
- [20:30]
A
Well, right. But I think this, you know what I found really heartening these protests in New York where I see Iranian and flags of Israel. I actually find that quite encouraging to.
- [20:43]
B
Think that we might start Mamdani pushed back. You saw AOC push back on a lot of these Hamas supporting stuff. They were very clear about what happened. I think one of the things with Iran, you and I both agree that Iran is a menacing country and also would be a really huge opportunity for.
- [21:04]
A
The leadership, the irgc, the Islamic Republic.
- [21:07]
B
Yeah, it would be a thing. I think it'll be interesting to see. I think the juxtaposition here is, is Trump trying to create and foment protests by brutality here in this country and it brutalizing protesters and then supporting protesters in Iran. I think that's the obvious.
- [21:29]
A
Yeah, I connect to that. You're right, that's.
- [21:32]
B
And so. And then going after, you know, Greenland when you know, you have something like Ukraine sitting there and blaming again a lot of Zelensky in what's happening. But the idea of us going to war with France or France having to send military things, what an insane moment. These are our friends, these are our allies, these are places we like to go, we like to be part of. And so I think. Let me get the reason. I think all this foreign policy chaos is conveniently distracting from the story Trump doesn't wanna discuss, which again is Jeffrey Epstein. It's been nearly a month since the deadline for releasing the Epstein files came and went. And the Justice Department appears to be going nowhere close to making a full files public. I think they have 1% or something. The DOJ sent a filing last week that it reviewed more about 12,000 documents out of more than 2 million. Incredible amount of documents. Democratic Representative Ro Khanna and Republican Representative Thomas Massie, who is really quite a badass these days, had filed a complaint with a federal judge. They're asking for the judge to appoint what they call a special master to force the DOJ to release the files. I actually spoke with Ro Khanna on the latest episode of on with Kara Swisher and asked him what happens next because this is actually a process. They have gotten the law passed. The DOJ has to comply. The DOJ didn't comply. Now they have to do this. Let's listen.
- [22:57]
A
We will see some of these millions of documents because the Justice Department has said to the judge they're releasing them. The question is the quality of that and will they have excessive redactions. And then Thomas Massie and I are planning to introduce inherent contempt. Inherent contempt. If it passes the House, it just requires the House would fine Pam Bondi personally $10,000 a day for every document that she didn't release. Whether that passes and is enforced. The point is it's showing the crack in the MAGA base, which is interesting.
- [23:27]
B
Let me just finish up.
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A
That's actually doing something.
- [23:28]
B
Yes, exactly. Yes. And also they're trying to get this special master, which I think is another thing, which is probably the right thing to do here. Meanwhile, Bill and Hillary Clinton released a scathing letter to Got to read this letter to the House Oversight Committee this week saying they will not testify in the Epstein investigation. I, Roe Khan has said they should testify. At the same time, they are having a quite a good point noting every person has to decide when they have seen or had enough and are ready to fight for this country, its principles, its people, no matter the consequences for us. Now is the time the House Republicans are moving to hold both Clintons in contempt. Of course they don't think Trump should testify, which is a good reason for the Clintons maybe not to. This continues to be the story that doesn't go away and talk about what's happening here because he is doing a lot of this to get the focus off of Epstein, which is going to come out no matter what he does. I mean, this is not to be quashed at this point is my feeling.
- [24:26]
A
Well, I just want to go back to Denmark for a moment. I want to talk about Epstein. So my favorite meal in the world is In N Out Animal Style at the Sepulva, the In N Out on Sepulveda near lax. Because what it means is, is I've just gotten to la. I'm about to roll into the Beverly Hills Hotel, roll up to the bar, perhaps get my eye contact, return from a lovely woman who perhaps might be from Russia. But it just signals a bunch of good things are about to happen. Kara. And I'm about to roll with my buddy Mike. I absolutely love la. My second favorite meal is a latte and grapefruit and yogurt, a Jack swipe Frito. Just sitting out there watching the world go by. I feel like I'm an author and I don't know 1920s France. My third.
- [25:11]
B
Can I just note, if we were in the Newlywed Game, I would know all this, but go ahead. I do know all this.
- [25:17]
A
My favorite was Bob Eubanks, outstanding talk show host, asked, what is somewhere recently you've gone that you was interesting? Or what do you. Where do you want to go? Or where have you visited recently that you and your husband enjoyed? And she looked down, and then she looked up and said, in the ass. And they didn't even bleep it out because they were so. They were so shocked. So my third favorite meal is anything from Chipotle. The fact that Chipotle is not a sponsor of everything I do is a crime against commerce. I can walk into Chipotle with a blindfold and I walk out with a smile on my face. Denmark is similar to me showing up with an AR15 and zip ties and a military vest and saying, if you don't give me a burrito bowl with pork, extra guacamole and sour cream and brown rice for $14.73, I'm gonna kill everyone here. And they'd say, well, sir, so this.
- [26:14]
B
Is Trump is the president right?
- [26:16]
A
Sir, we would do this anyways. There's no need for guns. There's no need for military vests. There is absolutely an argument around why Greenland is strategic. It's a passage for not only all kinds of commerce, maritime commerce, but nuclear submarines. It would be a staging ground for any attack. It's hugely important. It also supposedly has about, is it 17% or 12% of rare earth materials? But all of this is ours. All of it is, or not even ours. The whole point of the New world order post 1945 was we said to nations rather than going on conquests. Try this thing called reciprocal, mutually beneficial trade and commerce. And it's less expensive than firing tanks.
- [27:05]
B
We can have as many bases there as we want.
- [27:07]
A
We used to have, I think, 11, and we closed them down 17. And now we have one.
- [27:11]
B
We have one.
- [27:12]
A
There are 57,000 people. They, up until recently, really liked Americans, and they liked the jobs. Like, sure, put a nuclear submarine base here, Put a track in, put a radar station, whatever you want. If you want to start, you want.
- [27:23]
B
To come up with trade deals around the minerals.
- [27:25]
A
Yeah, whatever you want, sir. We will give you your burrito bowl. You don't need to bring a gun into Chipotle.
- [27:32]
B
I like this Chipotle metaphor. I was expecting it.
- [27:35]
A
You were wondering where I was going with that.
- [27:36]
B
I was indeed.
- [27:38]
A
By the way, my new favorite restaurant in New York is a place called the Corner Store. Oh, my God. So many fabulous people there. Yeah, the French dip. You heard it here. You're welcome.
- [27:46]
B
All right.
- [27:47]
A
Okay. Anyways. This just makes no fucking sense. Look, the Epstein files. There's no getting around it. Kara. It's probably the President. Clinton looks really bad here. There's just.
- [28:00]
B
This is what Roe noted, but nonetheless, it was a great.
- [28:03]
A
There's just no getting around here. But again, Roe is right. Except for the following. And one of the reasons why one of the other pieces of material that's been stained indelibly by the Trump administration is that many of the activities testifying in front of Congress, not having your children, trade in crypto and leverage the presidency to get multibillion dollar deals, there's actually few laws against them. What they are is they've been enforced by norms, and we've had norms in this country where if you're called before Congress, you go, regardless of who you are.
- [28:38]
B
Yes. You don't act like a jackass every time.
- [28:41]
A
And because Trump has just waved the middle finger at so many norms, and.
- [28:47]
B
Because he did this week in Detroit. But go ahead.
- [28:50]
A
And because we have abdicated, as Barry Goldwater warned back in the late 60s and early 70s, because we have abdicated and quite frankly, recklessly and ignorantly transferred so much power to the executive branch that this guy has not only been able to blow through stop signs, he can mow over children in the crosswalk and say, yeah, fuck it, there's no law against it. And this is how societies kind of just digress. So understandably and justifiably, the Clintons are saying, oh, these norms no longer apply. We don't have. If. If what's good for them is good for US in any other administration, if the Clintons had called, been called before Congress, they would have said, absolutely, we'll come testify. They would show up. They're very smart, they're very well prepared, and they would have performed excellently. Instead, they want to make theater and make. And connect Epstein more to Clinton and a Democrat than to.
- [29:43]
B
I don't know. I think they want to get arrested and show that Trump doesn't have to testify. I think that's precisely.
- [29:49]
A
They want to get arrested. I'm sorry.
- [29:50]
B
They want to get arrested. The Clintons, Yes.
- [29:52]
A
They want to make a spectacle of it.
- [29:54]
B
They want to make a spectacle and they want to point out that they want to have the Clintons testify, but not Trump.
- [30:00]
A
The Clintons testify about Trump.
- [30:02]
B
Yeah. Think about it.
- [30:02]
A
You know more about this than I do.
- [30:03]
B
Trump is not. The committee doesn't want Trump to testify. Why wouldn't they? Trump was closer to Epstein. I mean, on a.
- [30:11]
A
But the committee's controlled by Republicans.
- [30:13]
B
No, no, I get that, but I'm just saying they want to do. They want to do this. I think they wouldn't write a letter.
- [30:18]
A
The Clintons want to do this.
- [30:20]
B
Yes. The Clintons want to make some fucking noise. That's my guess here, if I had a guess, because I think they both. They also noted they gave a lot of information, they'd been cooperative, but they're not going to appear, essentially, if Trump doesn't. And I think people can grok that pretty clearly. You know what I mean? And I do think they want to be tried for this. I think that's what they're doing.
- [30:46]
A
I don't think William Jefferson Clinton wants to be tried under oath for anything to do with abstinence.
- [30:50]
B
You don't write a letter like that if you don't want to want. It's a dare. It's a dare.
- [30:54]
A
Well, they're both lawyers. My guess is the best lawyers in the world reviewed it, whether they signed it or not.
- [30:59]
B
Got it. But it's a dare. You wouldn't send a letter like that if you didn't want something to happen, if you didn't want to make something happen.
- [31:05]
A
Well, they on. You were smarter than me, so I defer to your strategy.
- [31:07]
B
Yeah, we'll see. Nonetheless, the Epstein files should be released, and what Trump is doing is distraction, distraction, distraction. There is something that he does not want to come out. I don't know if it's about him. It's definitely about his friends. So this is what's happening here. He's trying to get it out. And by the way, the people that want it out the most is the MAGA base and now me and now Scott and now the rest of the country. So we'll see. All right, we're going to go to a quick break. We come back Paramount Sues Warner Bros. Support for this show comes from Quince. People love to say new Year, New me and honestly that sounds like a lot. No need to say start from scratch. I say why don't we start with a new wardrobe instead from Quince. Quince has all the staples covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. Their wardrobe essentials are crafted to last season after season. And like everything from Quints, each piece is made with premium materials and ethical trusted factories, then priced far below what other luxury brands charge. I've gotten lots of items from Quince myself and I'm just bringing out my down cape, which I wear for a very short time as it starts to get cold because it's really warm, it's cozy and it looks really good. It looks like I'm wearing a very fashionable blanket. I'm excited to be wearing it in the coming days as the weather gets colder and colder. Refresh your wardrobe with Quinton. Wait. Go to quince.com pins pivot for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com pivot to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com pivot support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. Now that E Trade is part of Morgan Stanley, there's even more to Love love. Get the freedom to invest on your own with $0 commissions on stocks, options, ETFs and mutual funds, plus account types for every investor. And when you're ready, speak with a pro to help guide you on your financial journey. Discover more ways to make the most of your money and get up to $1,000 when you open a brokerage account with a qualifying deposit today. Learn more@etrade.com offer terms and fees apply. Invest in Investing Involves Risks Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. As we step into a new year, it's a perfect time for all the financial advisors out there to think about how to Set up your clients for success. One way to do that is to level up your fixed income strategy. But bonds are tricky. The market is huge. Rate check shift and risks hide in plain sight. That's why having a partner with scale and expertise matters. Vanguard brings both. Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. Institutional quality isn't a tagline, it's a commitment to your clients. It means top grade products across the board. The Lineup includes over 80 bond funds. They're actively managed by a 200 person global squad of sector specialists, analysts and traders. A lot of firms love to highlight their star portfolio managers like it's about that one brilliant mind making all the magic happen. Vanguard's philosophy is a little different. They believe the best active strategies shouldn't be locked away with one person. They should be shared across the team. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself@vanguard.com audio. That's vanguard.com audio. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distribution distributor. Scott we're back with more news. The battle for Warner Brothers is continuing. And as Paramount continues to fall downstairs in doing deal making. Paramount filed a lawsuit against Warner Brothers and his CEO David Zaslav this week, trying to get them to turn over details of their sale process and the Netflix deal. Warner Brothers is calling the lawsuit meritless. Paramount also announced plans to nominate its own slate of directors to Warner Brothers. Warner Brothers board to vote against the next deal. This is very typical in these fights. Netflix is making some moves ahead of its own, reportedly amending its offer to an all cash deal. Very savvy. Which could speed up the process significantly. The stock is down, so it makes sense and it makes it more attractive and gets that problem out of the way. The stock declining. I'd love you to talk about the board dynamics. I talked to Bill Cohen last night and he was like, I don't understand why you would sugar give the money. Give $34 a share. You don't do vinegar here after doing so many stupid things in this deal. Actually, let me note, lengthening the time frame because Trump is. If martial law doesn't happen, Trump loses the House and the Senate. This deal is fucked for the Paramount people. So the timeframe is really bad for them at this point. They're taking too long to get this. If they got their hands on this, Trump will be damaged by the time and unable to help them. But what do you think of this proxy strategy? You've been in the middle of these things a million times.
- [36:20]
A
Yeah, Bill's exactly right. At some point, I mean, they went through a long process, and to Zaslav and their banker's credit, they got the number much higher than anyone, including me, had anticipated. And at some point, they have to say, okay, this is why we're picking this deal. You have to be able to economically justify it for shareholders. There was justification for a lot of reasons that the Netflix is a superior bid. And I have never been on a company that's been acquired or has acquired another company. Me. Or has gone out of business where there's not lawsuits. I was on the board of Eddie Bauer when we declared bankruptcy. I was on.
- [36:56]
B
Really? You were on the board of Eddie Barr? I forgot. Okay.
- [36:59]
A
Yeah. Well, because I'm such a great outdoorsman, it just made sense.
- [37:02]
B
I can't see you hiking anyway. We're going on a hike someday.
- [37:06]
A
Go ahead anyways. But there's always lawsuits. So, folks, these guys don't scare easily. They just send the law. The lawsuit's not going to have any merit. It's just, am I tied up or delay it. But it just adds another moving part to what is already going to be a complicated, messy situation. The only thing that talks here is they got to put $34 a share on the table.
- [37:30]
B
They've got dinero.
- [37:32]
A
And not only that, it has to be the increase. The incremental offer has to be great enough to justify a potential breakup where I believe WBB would have to pay Netflix $2 billion.
- [37:42]
B
Yes, exactly. And also the. All those loan covenant things they have to get their nose out out of. They have to let Warner Brothers do those low.
- [37:48]
A
So the only way this happens. The only way this happens, they're not going to block this deal with lawsuits. The only way this happens is if Larry Ellison goes. Whatever. I'm 81 years old. I'm worth. I don't know. I think he's the third richest man in the world. I know he's less wealthy.
- [38:04]
B
He went down.
- [38:04]
A
Yeah, but that. He just says. Or Saudi money shows up and says, larry, if you're willing to put in another 10, we'll put in another 10. And they show up with a 15% premium to the current offer. That's the only way the board is legally because of Revlon loss. I don't even think it can't even be incremental. If it's 3 or 5%, they would say the additional risk injected into the deal and the breakup fee means that this is a wash and we are just going with this dance partner as.
- [38:33]
B
Committed There was a really interesting note. You and I both know Vivi Nevo. He's so funny. He's a funny little guy who is a very big investor in a lot of stuff and he's very amusing on many levels and has been sort of a quiet whisperer to lots of moguls. He was sitting next to David Zaslav at the Golden Globes, which was. And not with. And he's a Warner Brothers shareholder and not with David Ellison, who apparently was seated in the back. But as he's being insulted by the host of a show that's on his network, which I loved. It was really interesting. That was a really interesting Zaslav sort of flexing a little bit there, having Vivi next to him. And I think this. I get lawsuits are typical. But it seems like not the way to do this. Just give them the money. I keep going and same thing that Bill says, give them the money. Just give them the money. That will work. Why aren't they giving them the money?
- [39:34]
A
Well, you mean offer more money? Yeah, offer top their bid. So in 25, my big tech stock pick or my stock pick was out Alphabet. This year it's Amazon. You know what my Stock pick in 24 was?
- [39:45]
B
What?
- [39:47]
A
Warner Brothers.
- [39:48]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [39:49]
A
And at the end of the year it was down 10%.
- [39:52]
B
You had it now.
- [39:53]
A
Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I thought these assets will go. What will be interesting. And this is going to come back to my prediction. What will be interesting is I think all of these bankers and financiers figuring out they could in fact, they can in fact do whatever $100 billion is a 12 figure deal. Once this thing is done or has left the station, you know who they're going to turn their sights on?
- [40:14]
B
Disney.
- [40:15]
A
100% Disney. Disney's going to be put in play by somebody.
- [40:20]
B
Yeah, yeah. And then I will be doing the lovely exit interview with Robert Iger. So. Yeah, I agree. But it has to be done interestingly at the same time. Say Apple is the obvious candidate for that particular purchase. There's going to be a new CEO at Apple relatively soon and a new CEO at Disney.
- [40:37]
A
So those two, which do you think will come first?
- [40:39]
B
First Disney, huh?
- [40:42]
A
Yeah, I think you're right.
- [40:43]
B
Yeah, Disney. I'm pretty sure I'm right. But Apple's coming. Tim Cook has been less there from what I understand from people and is starting to move away from it. I think he'll still be involved, no question. Both. Well, maybe Iger will sail away on his beautiful ships, but I think that they're both preparing. So whoever the CEO is, is going to have to helm this thing and therefore be part of the. The decision making. Right, that's presumably you don't want to like here you go, I just did a massive deal kind of thing. But in this case, just pay the money, Larry, or not like shit or get off the pot is kind of the situation here.
- [41:22]
A
I think they should rename Disney to strip mining nostalgia. God, we're so creative. We're going to put out a prequel, a sequel, an Aquel, a nyquil.
- [41:32]
B
Let me just say I'm going to push back on that. Both Disney and Apple have given us so these groups of people have given us so much great stuff over the many decades. It's okay that they aren't perfect all the time. No.
- [41:44]
A
And so is Ford Motor and Dow Chemical.
- [41:46]
B
That's a long, long time ago. Although, you know, as you know, I have a Chevy bolt and I love it. Anyway, so what's the next move, Mr. Board Member? Since I've never been on a board.
- [41:56]
A
Well, what people don't realize around board dynamics and this is more relevant or impactful as it relates to Chairman Powell. Chairman Powell, you know, he's off. He's no longer the Chairman as of May 2024. But you know who's in charge of the Fed?
- [42:11]
B
26. 26.
- [42:12]
A
I'm sorry, May 2026. And God damn it, it's. Where does the time go, Kara? The cat's in the cradle. Where does the time go?
- [42:23]
B
You never played ball with me, Scott.
- [42:25]
A
Oh my. Oh wait, my. I need to pee. That's right. It's 2026.
- [42:29]
B
Okay, so what's going to happen?
- [42:32]
A
The only time I feel like I don't need to pee is when I'm peeing anyways. Just. And now the stream is so weak, it's like mistake.
- [42:43]
B
You could be the anchor of CBS News with that line. But go ahead.
- [42:46]
A
Don't trust the experts. Hey, Billy Bob. Fucking Yahoo. What are you?
- [42:51]
B
The audience of CBS is concerned with whether they can pee your head.
- [42:54]
A
What did 4chan tell you.
- [42:59]
B
What'S gonna happen here? We have to move on.
- [43:01]
A
Okay, so. So this is the thing. Why does Trump want Chairman Powell out so badly and to resign? Because while his chairmanship expires in three and a half months.
- [43:12]
B
Yes, you do.
- [43:13]
A
He remains on the board of governors and he's influential until 28. Who do you think's gonna control the fucking Fed next year?
- [43:20]
B
Chairman Powell.
- [43:21]
A
Chairman Powell. Cuz this is how boards work, Kara. Or what? I'VE learned. First, there's a quote, unquote board meeting where we all sit around with the CEO in the room and we eat salad and everyone listens to themselves talk. And we appro. We do whatever the fucking CEO suggested. And the only time a board matters is two. Two times. You either hire and fire the CEO or you decide if and when to sell the company. And usually when things get spicy, there's a second board meeting. And the second board meeting is the board members who matter meet usually in the parking lot after the board meeting and start talking. Because the dynamic on a board is the following. Everybody talks, everybody's smart, says their shit, poses for the cameras. It's a bunch of fips, formerly important people, intelligent things. And then going back to their country club in Naples. And then usually two people speak and everyone stops and listens and agrees with them. And the two people are usually the following. The largest shareholder. Because bottom line is they control the company. And especially if it's a private company and it might need more company, everyone kisses this guy's ass. And it's always a guy. And there's usually an ex board member. What I mean by ex board member is there's some who, quite frankly, has proven themselves over the course of the last two, three, ten years on this board is just fucking smarter than everybody else, has more gravitas. And when this person speaks, everyone just starts nodding their head and guess who that person on the board of governors regarding interest rate decisions is going to be. The chair communicates to Congress. The chair is the visual figurehead. But at the end of the day, the people deciding if interest rates go up or down, down, it's the board of governors. And you can bet, regardless of who the chair is, in June of this year, everyone will talk. And then Chairman Powell, probably one of the greatest economic minds in history, will say, yeah, these are all great points, but I think we should keep interest rates where you are. You can bet other board of governors are going to decide. I'm with chairman or former chairman or Governor Powell.
- [45:23]
B
I got that. So here, let's go to Warner's. So the board chair is a guy who used to be chief executive of Price, Waters Cooper, right? And he's the one that's been on TV saying, there's so him, he's a white guy. David Zaslav. Richard Fisher, Independent Director. Who was this guy? I don't even know who this guy is. Served as president, chief executive officer of the Federal Reserve bank of Dallas. So a big swinging. So that's Him.
- [45:51]
A
I'm sure it's a very competent boy.
- [45:53]
B
Right, okay, it is. I'm just saying. But who's that dude? It's Zaslav. Right. Presumably is running the show here.
- [46:00]
A
Zaslav is Deborah Lee.
- [46:02]
B
Oh, shoot. That's interesting.
- [46:04]
A
Zaslav has gained a tremendous amount of credibility because he's almost gotten everybody's money back.
- [46:08]
B
Yeah. Ken Low is on it. Wow. It's an interesting. Anthony Noto's on that board. Ooh, I know a lot of this board really well. Wow. Oh, Jeffrey Yang's on this board. Malone. Malone. Malone's the big swinging dick on this board.
- [46:22]
A
Oh, Bob Malone's on this board.
- [46:24]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:25]
A
He's the guy everybody listens to. John. Sorry. John Malone. He's the guy. He's arguably the brightest guy or one of the brightest minds in the history of media.
- [46:31]
B
A couple of tech people. Jeff Yang, the venture capitalist.
- [46:35]
A
I've been that guy. I've been that guy. I've been the tech guy they bring on and over a while. Just because we started a tech company doesn't mean we know how to implement tech companies.
- [46:43]
B
No, I get it. But there are a couple of interesting people. Anthony Noda was a on it. Anton Levy is another person who's really interesting. Venture capital. They've got a lot of venture capitalists.
- [46:52]
A
Anyway, I don't know. They're really have. The thing about Disney is there haven't been. There haven't been layoffs, but Disney's announcing so many remakes that a bunch of original ideas have filed for unemployment.
- [47:03]
B
Oh, my God. I'm.
- [47:04]
A
Keep going.
- [47:04]
B
Anyway. All right, we're going to. We'll see what happens next. Pay up, kids. Pay up. So moving on, the FBI searched the home of Washington Post reporter Hannah Nattinson on Wednesday, seizing laptops, a phone and a smartwatch. Nattinson has spent the covering the Trump administration's efforts to fire federal workers. The search is part of an investigation, they say, into a Maryland system administrator accused of taking home classified intelligence report as a pretext. Frankly, the Washington Post has been told neither Nattanson nor the outlet are the target of the investigation. The editor of the Washington Post, Matt Murray, did a terrific letter. It took a while to hear from the CEO, Will Lewis. Jeff Bezos has not said word one, and he's getting enormous amounts of criticism from readers remaining quiet, quiet in the hours following the news. I think the newsroom leaders have done the right thing and everything else, but this is a Trump administration trying to really go for the press at this point and going for their sources. There's no reason to take this woman's information on another investigation. And it's pretext is all it is. But Jeff Bezos not standing up. He's busy partying in Aspen. Presumably. But another reason why he's a terrible owner for the Washington Post. You need to stand up at times like this.
- [48:20]
A
Yeah, I stopped listening about 30 seconds ago.
- [48:22]
B
I'm. Stop it. It matters.
- [48:23]
A
You're just masturbating.
- [48:24]
B
You talk about democracy, journalism.
- [48:26]
A
Where's my vibrator?
- [48:27]
B
Yeah, journalism. You don't. We have rules in this country. Why does that.
- [48:30]
A
Let's talk about Bob Iger. Hold on.
- [48:31]
B
No. Why does my stuff not matter? Why does the president.
- [48:34]
A
Why does my stuff. Are we married now?
- [48:37]
B
No.
- [48:37]
A
Why does my stuff not matter? You don't touch me anymore.
- [48:42]
B
The press is an important part of this. You don't notice me. State media is. Is being created even as we speak. Jeff Bezos, if he wants to own this fantastic newspaper still, despite his best efforts to make it suck, should stand up. Come on.
- [48:59]
A
I'm trying to think of what's less relevant than cbs. Oh, the Washington Post. No, it is not relationship advice to the young men out there. Women don't want money and height. They want follow up questions. Follow up questions?
- [49:11]
B
No, no.
- [49:12]
A
Yeah, women want follow up questions. They want to be noticed. Let's talk about Bob Iger. Just let me get a few Bob Iger things back and then you can go back to talking about how important the Washington Post is. No, bad.
- [49:21]
B
I'm not saying it's important. This is an important moment that owners step up.
- [49:24]
A
No, no, no. It's terrible what's going on here.
- [49:26]
B
Oh, my God. You're like literally, when you're reading Pravda every day and getting updates from.
- [49:31]
A
I'm reading Pravda.
- [49:34]
B
I'm sure you'll enjoy that.
- [49:36]
A
I'm getting a tattoo that says Al Jazeera.
- [49:38]
B
No, no.
- [49:39]
A
Okay, listen to me.
- [49:40]
B
This is. He is. I'm going to ignore you completely. An owner. The Graham's. Mrs. Graham went out on a fucking limb all the time for this country and so did Don Graham.
- [49:52]
A
Yeah, to your point, I probably shouldn't be glib about it. The Washington Post reporter had developed, I guess, over or it's reported well over a thousand confidential sources inside a variety of government agencies. So this is an attempt, not only an attempt to put a chill around the press, which is obviously totally contrary to everything America is supposed to value, but it's really meant to unmask Sources and put a chill around anyone who talked to the press outside of normal propaganda channels. It really is upsetting Federal agents. They've knocked down the door of the journalist. Her name is, as you referenced, Hannah Natenson. The Fed show up at her house, they don't ask for a comment. They don't call her. They just kick down her door and take her computer and her phone. So, again, we just continue to find violations of the very principles that America was founded on. So, yeah, you're right. I shouldn't be glib about it.
- [50:54]
B
Look, this is a long line in media companies acquiescing to the government.
- [51:01]
A
Thank you, cbs.
- [51:03]
B
Whether it's cbs, whether it's making payoffs to him, whether it's Jerry Redstone, whether it's whatever. Jeff Bezos is a long line of shitty owners of media.
- [51:13]
A
I agree. We agree that he's probably. I think he probably agrees that he shouldn't have owned or bought the Washington Post.
- [51:19]
B
He should go and get his chin implants or whatever he wants, but he shouldn't own the show.
- [51:23]
A
But here's the thing. Bob Iger, you know, he doesn't ruin childhoods. He leases them back to you monthly. And also, he's not eating evil. He's worse. He's the kind of guy who can.
- [51:34]
B
Ruin something politely, no, no, you don't have the child. And Disney is a wonderful. Does wonderful stuff, as do many people. Anyway, you're not gonna get the focus off of shitty Jeff Bezos. All right, Scott, we'll go on a quick break. You do not care for the things I see.
- [51:51]
A
You know, his big innovation was making you pay $27 to skip a line so you can stand in a different line. That's his innovation.
- [52:00]
B
When's the last time you were Disney?
- [52:02]
A
Oh, I. So 364 days a year, I do not show up for my kids. And then my partner says, all right, bitch. So I take my. We haven't done it a couple years because now they want to go to Universal with their buddies and not have dad around.
- [52:19]
B
Yeah, that's a good.
- [52:20]
A
The only time I would go, they want to go to Halloween night. I'm like, I'll go. And they're like, no, no, dad, you're not invited. I used to take all the kids and their friends to Disney once a year for a long time.
- [52:30]
B
Yeah. All right. But no longer?
- [52:32]
A
No, I haven't been in a while.
- [52:33]
B
Have you been on I'm up. You. I've been on a Disney cruise.
- [52:35]
A
Oh, you've. Oh, you've been with them. I've heard they're great. My kids want a Disney cruise with their grandparents.
- [52:39]
B
Endless soft serves. That's all I have to say.
- [52:41]
A
I've heard it's fantastic.
- [52:43]
B
It's very good. It's very well done. I wanted to kill myself, but it's very well done.
- [52:48]
A
Well, that's called a cruise.
- [52:49]
B
Yes, exactly. It was endless.
- [52:51]
A
You're getting to that age now though.
- [52:52]
B
No, I'm not getting to that age. I don't like both. I'm not a boat.
- [52:55]
A
And they have deals for you and your nurse.
- [52:56]
B
Okay. Anyway. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about Apple and Google teaming up on AI. Support for the show comes from Framer. You need a website, then you need a website builder. In other words, you need Framer. Framer is an enterprise grade no code website builder used by teams at companies like Perplexity and Miro to make move faster. With real time collaboration, a robust CMS with everything you need for great SEO and advanced analytics that include integrated A B testing, your designers and marketers are empowered to build and maximize your dot com. From day one, changes to your Framer site go live to the web in seconds with one click without help from engineering. So whether you want to launch a new site, test a few landing pages, or migrate your full.com framer has programmed for startups, scale ups and large enterprises to make going from idea to live site as easy and fast as possible. Learn how you can get more out of your.com from a framer specialist or get started building for free today@framer.com pivot for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com pivot for 30 percent off framer.com pivot rules and restrictions apply. Support for this show comes from Shopify. 2026 can be the start of something brand new, but you're the only one who can determine what your story will be. And if you're a business owner, Shopify can be the tool you need to take your business to that next step. With Shopify, you can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates for an online storefront that you can customize to match your brand. Setup is fast with Shopify's built in AI tools that write product descriptions and headlines and help you edit product photos. Plus, Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. It's why millions of entrepreneurs have already made this leap from household names to first time business owners just getting started as you grow, Shopify grows with you. Handle more orders, expand to new markets and do it all from the Same dashboard in 2026. Stop waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com pivot. Go to shopify.com pivot that's shopify.com pivot Hear your first this new year with Shopify by your side. Some of this video coming out of Minneapolis is telling a story about the surge of ICE agents that started last week after Renee Goode was killed.
- [55:33]
A
Another controversial video has emerged of it turns out the people being arrested were US Citizens.
- [55:39]
B
These are observers making sure that kids can walk home from school without being.
- [55:45]
A
Taken apart by the horrible gestapo that we have here.
- [55:48]
B
A group of men approached a woman at a bus stop, pulled her aside and then walked her into a vehicle. The polling is also telling a story. Support for ICE is dropping and more Americans than any never before 46% told economist YouGov pollsters they want ICE abolished. Meanwhile, the messaging from the White House is that ICE has immunity. So what does that mean for the people, some of them citizens, that ICE agents are dragging out of cars and workplaces and off of streets around Minneapolis? That's on today explained we air every weekday. Scott, we're back with more news. Apple and Google have announced a multi year deal for Apple to base its AI products on technology developed by Google. Upcoming versions of Apple intelligence will be based on Gemini AI models powering Siri and other AI features. Alphabet stock jumped on the news, making it the fourth publicly traded company to be worth over $4 trillion. It's interesting because they did have a they were mobbed up a little bit with OpenAI as you know, for a little bit. And now they're and of course there's many criticisms of Apple, Apple being behind. Meanwhile, several publishers, including our own Vox Media, the Atlantic, Penske Media are suing Google for antitrust violations over its dominant ad tech business. There's a case happening too. Meta has named former Trump Advisor Dina Powell McCormick to serve as president and vice chair. McCormick Powell McCormick served as Trump's deputy National Security Advisor during his first term. That's when I met her. But President Trump posted Truth social congratulating Powell McCormick, calling it move a great choice by Mark Z. I'll comment on that the end because I think she's highly competent and she used to work for Goldman Sachs. I want to leave that out. Is married to Senator David McCormick of Pennsylvania. They are a power couple obviously, but talk about The Google Apple thing and the, and the lawsuit.
- [57:41]
A
I think you know more about this than I do. Kara, I'm interested in your thoughts.
- [57:44]
B
I think, you know, Apple's been criticized for being behind in this, in the AI stuff. They haven't been developing it, they've been losing staff in that way. Obviously they decided not to participate in the, in the money spending in this area that Google and others are doing. I think it makes sense. They have strong relationships over mapping and search and everything else. And I think they may be, I don't know, they've gotten in trouble over the mapping and everything and the search, making them the default search. And so they may be just doing it again. Right. If Google and Apple do this, I think they don't have the capabilities. And then Gemini has gotten a lot better, I have to say, even on Google search, when I use, use it very rarely now. So they have to be mobbed up with an Apple because that's where people get their information. We'll see. I think it's in the light of that there is still an ad tech case by the federal government and then now this one. These people have complained about Google but never done anything and now they've done it. I think this is exactly what they should do, is sue them. I mean, I've always thought they should sue them in this regard. Google is on both sides of the ad trade and shouldn't be. And I do think the case that the government has is a strong one against Google. So any thoughts?
- [59:00]
A
Well, I thought Apple not entering into the capital wars of AI was a really deft move because I thought they were going to pull a search and say, all right, you guys fight it out for search and we'll just sequester access to the most valuable billion consumers in the world.
- [59:17]
B
That really are the maps too, right?
- [59:19]
A
The really only. The only. So what is it? There are now more phone contracts than there are people on the planet. And a billion of those, or 1.2 billion of those, I think are iOS. And quite frankly, they're the only people that matter because they're the only people with money. And when you carry an Android phone, and I've said this for a long time, you're communicating to the world that things just quite haven't worked out for you. And so Apple and iOS is responsible for something like 80% of online commerce. Commerce, they just spend. You can get a free phone, you can get an amazing phone and a free phone as long as it's Android. And these things cost three months salary in Hungary, now the iPhone, it's the ultimate, the ultimate signal as your worth as a mate is whether you have iOS or not. And so what they do is they know the value of that and they said to search if you want to be put in front of the billion most powerful consumers in the world, you got to pay us not five, not 10, but $20 million a year. I thought they were going to have the same type of leverage with these LLMs. One of these LLMs was going to pay them them a massive amount of money to be the default.
- [60:21]
B
Well, that may be the case here. We'll have to see. Right.
- [60:23]
A
But it looks like it's sort of that the technology is so differentiated and they need it so much that Apple doesn't have the leverage at least I thought. Because what it looks like, it looks like they're going to actually pay, my understanding is pay Alphabet about a billion dollars to use Gemini. So the leverage has sort of switched back to the provider here, to the content as opposed to the distribution. What's interesting is why they've decided to support. I mean if you look at the market share, there's a couple things I've been giving all these talks about AI. There's a couple things about LLM market share that are just sort of interesting. It's likely and obvious and understandable that OpenAI would be seeding its 80, 70% share that other people would be chipping.
- [61:09]
B
Now it is Google's come up and.
- [61:11]
A
They'Ve come down and the two that have been eating shares share have been one Gemini and two the LLMs, the open weight LLMs coming out of China. And it makes sense.
- [61:22]
B
And that's it by the way. That's it. The others are not growing and by.
- [61:26]
A
The way, Google search still gets about 90 times the number of queries. Just on a different point.
- [61:32]
B
They've done a good job integrating AI. They have. There's no.
- [61:35]
A
Greg Shob, the CEO of Section AI that upskills corporations for AI adoption has said something to me that I think thought was really bang on. He said of the billion people out there that might use AI in the next couple years, only 40 million are going to be willing to pay it. So really OpenAI right now is one of two forks in the road. They either get massive, massive enterprise adoption or they go bankrupt because there's no way there's enough consumers willing to pay 20 bucks a month.
- [62:04]
B
Escape or Google, which one are you going to be?
- [62:06]
A
So anyways, but this is, I think this is a huge one in for Alphabet. They're going to be put in front of the most valuable consumers in the world or the ones that have money. And I would imagine the reason they're doing this is they're thinking that this is going to give an enormous boost to Gemini. So they either strategically have decided they don't want OpenAI as a viable competitor. And two, they've also. I wouldn't be surprised. People forget these are people with enormous egos. And I say that in a good way. They will not spend time with their family families. They will ignore their health because they want to win so badly and they want to be relevant in the world. And one way to do that is to be the CEO of a company and beat everybody else. I wouldn't be surprised. And I'm curious what your thoughts if Tim Cook, quite frankly is a little pissed off at I've in this whole bromance of how and the implication that OpenAI is going to build products.
- [63:02]
B
Yeah.
- [63:04]
A
And they've kind of Alphabet for Apple is the definite devil is the devil they know. But this is going to absolutely elevate or accelerate the market share of gemini relative to OpenAI. I didn't have a lot of insight there.
- [63:20]
B
No, you had a lot of insight. I was just going to say you actually did have insight. What about the lawsuit? Very quickly.
- [63:26]
A
I don't have a view on it.
- [63:27]
B
Yeah, well, they should sue them.
- [63:28]
A
That was quick.
- [63:29]
B
They should sue them. They've been sucking away their value forever and doing it in a monopolist.
- [63:35]
A
So, yes, I'm up for any lawsuit against big tech at this point.
- [63:39]
B
Yeah, I like a lawsuit.
- [63:40]
A
Oh, and then. And then Dina, the way I read that, and I'm curious for you.
- [63:45]
B
I do know a lot about this, but go ahead.
- [63:47]
A
Yeah, sue. My thing is that essentially Meta and Jensen and Juan all realized one thing, quote, unquote, she's not in charge of partnerships with the government around data centers. She's in charge of figuring out a way to elegantly get them the government to pay for it and ultimately bail them out out because their plans around data centers even they cannot finance. So what is she there to do? I think Dinan. Yeah, I think Dina is there to go to this treasury secretary and the commerce secretary. You know why it makes sense for the government to issue bonds and backstop $4 trillion in debt for us because it'll grow the economy. I think she's there with the world's most elegant biggest fucking hat to try and get Trump to justify and announce that he's going to backstop See, you know.
- [64:35]
B
You know, Scott, so you agree? Yeah, Oh, I think so. I think she's there. She's a Goldman. I mean, they did leave out. They. A lot of the, A lot of the reaction was, oh, it's a sop to Trump. I don't think that's the case at all here. I think she's actually a very deft networker. She left the Trump administration rather early and has a very good reputation as a networker. She was Goldman Sachs, very tight with those people, was there for a long time. She's, she's, she knows everybody and actually across all party lines, which is really interesting. And so I think Meta doesn't have much capital experience in figuring out how to capitalize these things, these data centers, and has been very far behind. The other thing is, I think the SOP to Trump is too easy. Is too easy. I think she's the right person, especially if Trump starts to lose power. She is not. She is of the part. Been close. Everyone who's participating has to be have a relationship with Trump, but it's not. She hasn't gone over the edge in the way that some others have. So there's that. I think she has some credibility with Democrats from what I can glean.
- [65:44]
A
She's now the head of the big tech pac and she will orchestrate the largest bailout for tech since COVID possibly.
- [65:50]
B
Or else figure out how to capitalize this stuff. Right. How to get the money for it.
- [65:54]
A
Which is a bailout if it comes from the government.
- [65:55]
B
Yeah. So the other thing I think she has to avoid being is Sheryl Sandberg too. Right. Like seen as that way. And so I don't think she will.
- [66:04]
A
Though, unless she's gonna. Unless she's gonna like, claim, you know. Well, let me just be. Unless she's gonna pretend to promote gender equality while depressing teens all over the.
- [66:14]
B
World, she will not. She's actually, interestingly, she's very close to Nikki Haley. She's definitely a Republican, a very interesting background. But I agree with you, it's all about the data centers. You're one good for you, Scott, not knowing everything. You're absolutely finance.
- [66:30]
A
Give me the money to start a paper. And actually, honestly, I love Aspen.
- [66:35]
B
As much as I hate to compliment, Mark Zuckerberg is a very sharp choice.
- [66:38]
A
Oh, one of the better business minds of the last century.
- [66:40]
B
Yeah. I gotta say, he's made the right choice here. He's made a lot of bad choices. This one's a good one for him and it's too easy to say. It's just a suck up to Trump. It's not. It's absolutely not. It's a suck up to everybody. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
- [66:58]
A
What turns unrest into a revolution and where could it lead?
- [67:02]
B
The big open question is whether this.
- [67:06]
A
Set of protests that are currently underway is the end or the beginning of.
- [67:10]
B
The end of this third phase of sort of modern governance when it comes to Iran, the end of clerical rule.
- [67:17]
A
I'm Jake Sullivan.
- [67:18]
B
And I'm John Finer. And we and we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast.
- [67:24]
A
This week we cover the massive nationwide protests in Iran and the US Response.
- [67:29]
B
The episode's out now. Search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.
- [67:36]
A
For most of the history of television, if you missed a show, you just missed it. It was over, it was gone. But then this little company called TiVo came along and gave people super superpowers. You could pause live television, you could rewind it, you could save it and watch it later. It was incredible. And the people who had it could not stop talking about it. This week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology, we talk about the history of TiVo and how it is that a company whose products actually no one ever really had or used became one of the most iconic stories in tech. All that on Version History. Wherever you you get podcasts, is the American dream still possible?
- [68:17]
B
And it shouldn't be a wake up.
- [68:19]
A
That if you work hard, play by the rules, we're going to make the American dream accessible and affordable to you.
- [68:25]
B
You're not going to struggle. You're going to strive to achieve something.
- [68:28]
A
For those who think that the system is rigged.
- [68:30]
B
Breaking news.
- [68:31]
A
You're not paranoid. I'm Preet Bharara. And this week former Chicago Mayor and U.S. ambassador to Japan Rahm em Emanuel joins me to break down the affordability crisis, education, why Trump supporters feel betrayed, and what a Rahm Emanuel presidential campaign might look like. The episode is out now. Search and follow. Stay tuned with Preet wherever you get your podcasts.
- [69:00]
B
Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. The only thing I want to say is, is I thought that Xai has disabled the ability for Grok to create sexualized images of real people, including children. Following a wide backlash. It's pretty easy to generate those deep things, by the way, but I think I got it right that he was going to give up, even though he was pretending he wasn't on this stuff. I think he's going to continue to double down. That's my prediction because I don't know what else to say. This guy is a really heinous character and he thinks equating free speech with sexualization of children is really where we are right now with him. And that Apple. I don't think Apple and Google will do anything about it, which they should have before this. But he's backed off. So there you have it. Maybe they did behind the scenes. I don't know. Go ahead.
- [69:50]
A
Yeah. So we've been talking about Warner Brothers discovery. It's about to go into boring mode where they just try and get the cfius and antitrust and all the lawsuits and reveal views for the next 18 or 24 months. The next thing that's going to preoccupy us is there's going to be most likely an activist because it's so bad, but Disney's going to be put in play. The leadership transition here is uncertain. Iger says he plans to retire. But succession issues have traditionally invited shareholder activism. And a moment of a leadership change is an opportunity for an activist to kind of pop up in place.
- [70:27]
B
Have you been called Scott Galloway?
- [70:29]
A
There you go. Yeah. God, I was literally the world's worst athlete in the history of ucla and I imagine I'm like the world's worst activist. They'll get pressure from activist investor. Whether it's. Whether it's Nelson, you know, this thing, basically, it's at its. It's flat in a market that's tripled or quadrupled, it's flat over the last 10 years. And you look at this IP in these parks, it says there's very few companies that have more assets than Disney.
- [70:59]
B
Right now, nobody has it. Warner. Warner would be the second. But Disney's top. You're right.
- [71:05]
A
There's just something about. I mean, look at Disney. These parks, these cruises are singular. And Netflix can't spin up a Disney park in two, three decades. It would take 50 years. Obviously, the IP here, Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar, theme parks, ESPN.
- [71:23]
B
I thought flat then. Why is it flat then?
- [71:25]
A
Because they haven't been able to grow earnings. And there's just. You can't get around it. You'd have to argue it's been poorly managed. It's like, how on earth is intel worth less than it was 25 years ago when it was the leader in microchips? And also the biggest reason why Disney will be put into play, it comes from that movie, what was it called? Wall street, where Charlie Sheen is saying, why did you have to go after this company. Why do you want to break this? And he finally loses his shit. And he goes, because it's breakable. And Disney is breakable in the sense that unlike most media companies, it has very modest anti takeover or poison pill provisions. It has an annually elected board. It doesn't have a staggered board. Once you get on a board and you decide we're smarter than everybody else, including our shareholders, we'll start. I was on the board of Gateway Computer and we finally found a fucking bidder to buy that Joey bag of donuts company. And all the board members sat around and said, including the guy who went on to be the governor of Michigan. They tried to put in a poison pill. And they're like, we just want you to come in through the front door. And I'm like, all the Yahoo Farm speak just means you think you're smarter than shareholders. You now think you own this company as opposed to shareholders. Disney has not done that. That means a bidder only needs to persuade the majority of shareholders to replace directors, which can make hostile approaches.
- [72:50]
B
He's been through this. He has been through a few hostiles, as you know, with Ike Perlmutter and a whole bunch of people.
- [72:56]
A
And also the other thing that I think's lined up here is I think people look at Disney and go, yeah, fucking A, Disney. Someone should go in there and acquire 2% and be an activist. And that's probably what happens here. But what Warner Brothers has probably shown the market, market that, oh, if you find the right billionaire and the right pockets of money in the Gulf and the right bankers really hungry for fees, you can assemble this type of money. And there's so much money on the sidelines.
- [73:27]
B
Yeah, I don't think they'll let the Saudis into this one. It's going to be an Apple. It's going to be someone who doesn't need the Saudi hill. I'm just trying to think Disney's an American brand such. I mean, Warner is too, but Disney, there's no way.
- [73:41]
A
Aren't they opening. They're opening a Disney in the Gulf, right?
- [73:44]
B
They are, but they're not going to let the Saudis own Disney.
- [73:47]
A
Well, I don't know. I think all you need to do is give Mickey Mouse a beard and a morality police.
- [73:55]
B
Okay. I think it's Apple. It's got to be Apple. If they had it set. By the way, can I make another prediction besides these?
- [74:05]
A
They just have to change the name of the ride from It's a Small World to something like It's a small world and more restricted that we live in.
- [74:13]
B
I think I was at this dinner and a pharma guy was there. And as I was sitting here, I thought, because they're doing. Pharma and tech are doing all these deals together, whether it's OpenAI or all of them are doing deals, these health deals. I think big tech is going to go after pharma next and own.
- [74:30]
A
Oh, that's super interesting.
- [74:33]
B
I was like, oh, I looked at him and he's going on and on about Trump or something. I said, you know what? You're going to get owned by tech in the. That you're the next frontier. They're doing the media stuff, but it's not peanuts compared to you. And actually, in terms of doing great things, AI combined with pharma is an amazing, huge opportunity.
- [74:53]
A
See, I think actually the golf owning Disney is a bigger fit than you think. Especially with. Hold on. Especially with the Star wars franchise. Desert planets, dynasties, family drama. Done. Fits perfectly.
- [75:04]
B
Okay, they can have the golf. They're not getting Disney. So they can have golf and tennis or whatever the hell, but not Disney. It's going to be hard. That'll be made. There'll be a lot of pushback on that.
- [75:18]
A
Well, they have to.
- [75:19]
B
I like that. I like that.
- [75:19]
A
They'd have to ban gay days. They'd rebrand them as imagination maintenance closures.
- [75:26]
B
Also. No, that's on Warner. He's a Rob, L.A. on Warner. Anyway, on HBO.
- [75:31]
A
Anyways, my prediction is Disney is about to be the object of our obsession when it's most likely going to be an activist because it still is a very big pill to swallow. But they have good for them. And I hate poison pill provisions and anything that shifts accountability and authority from shareholders to a bunch of people who think they're smarter than everyone else on a board because they show up for a cob salad and get paid $300,000 a year called boards of directors. You would not believe how arrogant we become when we go on boards. I really.
- [76:01]
B
Okay, I'm going to go on a board this year. That's one of my little goals. All right, board people. I'm interested anyway. That's a great prediction, but. And you will and may steal my idea of tech buying Big Pharma.
- [76:13]
A
Okay, but I just to come to your def. I thought of you and you'll like this because it makes you look good, but you got a ton of shit on one of the social platforms. Someone insulted me me about my take on masculinity and then Someone weighed in and said, yeah, and we should have known this. He partners with Kara Swisher, who's been a total, total corporate shill for Big Tech. And I thought immediately, I've been on the nominating committee. When you go on a board and they don't like you, I. E. Scott Galloway, they put you on the stupidest committee, they put you on the nominating and governance committee. And the one thing the nominating and I always end up on a compensation committee because it's the worst fucking committee, or the absolute worst is the audit committee, because you have to do real work. But anyways, on the nominating governance committee, the thing you do is find new directors when directors roll off, and good boards politely have a conversation with his golf buddy who's been there 24 years, maybe it's time for you to move on. Or we talk to their nurse. But anyways, I'm not exaggerating. I know exactly what they're looking for in Direct. You check every fucking box. Literally and figuratively. Except you're unafraid. And you're a pain in the ass.
- [77:27]
B
Pain in the ass.
- [77:27]
A
If you were not speaking truth to power and totally unafraid, I'm not exaggerating. I think you'd be the Chairman of fucking OpenAI or Tesla right now. So the notion. I think your. Oh, it's such an option, your abrasive truth, kind of tell truth to pass power has cost you, Kara, hundreds of millions of dollars. So for anyone on any social media platform, they can say they don't like you, they can say you're arrogant, there's some truth, whatever, fine. But to say that you are a.
- [77:56]
B
Corporate shill, I know they do that.
- [77:58]
A
I don't know what the opposite of that is.
- [78:00]
B
I was close to Elon and wasn't. And they just can't. These are. These sort of censorious.
- [78:04]
A
And if you'd stayed close to him and kiss his ass, you'd be. That he'd be on the board of Tesla and worth $200 million. And I'd be staying at your place in Soho.
- [78:12]
B
Exactly. I know, I'm aware. I'm aware. But most of the criticism I get is from being with you.
- [78:18]
A
That's good to know.
- [78:18]
B
More people come from me. Okay. Anyway, we don't care that we're shrill or dislikable or anything else. We don't care. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551. Pivot. Yes, we do not care because we like ourselves and we like each other. Each other. That's the way it's going to go. You're not going to split us up. We are going to do that ourselves. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Scott, read us out.
- [78:52]
A
Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Hernito taught engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited the video. Thanks also to Dubros, Ms. Savira and Dan Shalon. Nishat Kuros Vox Me is executive producer of Podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.