Trump's Venezuela Oil Gambit, ICE Shooting Fallout, and Warner Bros. Says No (Again)

Summary

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Pivot Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pivot
Episode: Trump's Venezuela Oil Gambit, ICE Shooting Fallout, and Warner Bros. Says No (Again)
Date: January 9, 2026
Hosts: Kara Swisher (NY Mag), with guest co-hosts Audie Cornish (CNN) and Bill Cohen (Puck)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Pivot dives into three major stories at the intersection of politics, tech, and business:

• The nationwide uproar after an ICE agent fatally shot a U.S. citizen in Minneapolis
• President Trump’s attempts to leverage Venezuela’s oil industry
• The ongoing high-stakes struggle for Warner Bros. Discovery between streaming/broadcasting giants

Kara, filling in for Scott Galloway, is joined by CNN’s Audie Cornish and business journalist Bill Cohen for a candid, deeply informed, and often biting exploration of this week’s news cycle.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

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1. ICE Shooting Fallout in Minneapolis

[03:36–14:14]

The Story:

• Renee Nicole Goode, a 37-year-old U.S. citizen and poet, was shot and killed by ICE in Minneapolis, sparking national outrage.
• Official accounts from Homeland Security frame Goode as a "radical terrorist," a portrayal rejected by local leaders and many in the public.
• The response from local officials (Minneapolis mayor: “bullshit”) and national politicians—plus distorted media coverage—is examined.

Main Discussion Points:

• Political Spin, Public Perception, and Video Evidence:
  • Audie Cornish notes the feeling of "helplessness" spreading across political lines, with “a kind of militarized response from law enforcement” in cities like Minneapolis ([04:30]).
  • The impact of social media is emphasized: “People have eyes and they have social media... people offer their own commentary. I think that is having way more impact than the administration would like to think.” (Audie, [06:26])
• Business Leaders' Silence:
  • Kara flags high-profile (and unusual) business voices speaking out—like Paul Graham countering Elon Musk’s take on social media ([07:43]).
  • Bill Cohen: “Why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?” ([10:46]), but suggests silence is self-preservation—not indifference.
• Law Enforcement & Accountability:
  • Audie: “ICE... is unaccountable in such profound ways.” ([11:42])
  • Both suggest that as ICE tactics escalate, the average American is becoming uncomfortable with justifications of "mass deportations" ([11:41–12:21]).
• Cultural Tipping Point?
  • Bill sums up: “We're living through an era of unaccountability” ([12:25]).
  • Audie wonders if the business community has simply "walked away from the awokening" and is disengaged: “They are absent. They don't yank funding from things... they no longer feel actually engaged with the country.” ([13:06])

Notable Quotes:

• “People have eyes and they have social media... and I think that is having way more impact than the administration would like to think.” – Audie Cornish ([06:26])
• “Why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?” – Bill Cohen ([10:46])

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2. Trump’s Venezuela Oil Gambit

[14:32–24:06]

The Story:

• Trump plans to meet oil execs about subsidizing U.S. oil companies in Venezuela (“the taxpayer will pay for it”).
• The U.S. has withdrawn from numerous international treaties and seized oil tankers.
• The administration claims there will be no ground troops.

Main Discussion Points:

• Imperial Ambition or Economic Nonsense?
  • Bill (on oil company interest): “It’s going to take a long time before they raise their hands and say, oh, yes, me too, I want to get in here and extract this oil.” ([17:14])
  • “Why do we need more oil from Venezuela? We are net exporters of oil now. This is just this crazy, hubristic, ugly American behavior...” – Bill ([16:29])
• Deflection & the ‘Wag the Dog’ Theory:
  • Bill suspects the administration’s foreign adventures distract from other scandals: “What are they trying to deflect from? Is it the rewriting of January 6th? Is it Epstein? Is it graft?... It’s Wag the Dog, it’s Orwellian.” ([17:49])
• Democrats & Realpolitik:
  • Kara notes a real rift between Venezuelan expats in the U.S. and those who remain, complicating any simple narrative ([21:52]).
  • The group reflects on the U.S. history of regime change, concluding the Trump version is more “criming in plain sight” ([22:32]).
• Economic (Non)sense:
  • The consensus: the economic case for intervention is weak, the risk/reward makes no sense for major oil companies, and the intervention is more about spectacle and distraction than U.S. needs.

Notable Quotes:

• “If a client came to you and said, I want to buy Greenland, what would be the thing? As an investment banker, you would do... Are you out of your fucking mind?” – Bill Cohen ([30:57])
• “It’s just another example of this crazy, wacky, imperialistic behavior that is so unbecoming.” – Bill Cohen ([25:25])

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3. Greenland: Another Distraction?

[24:19–32:23]

The Story:

• U.S. is openly considering "buying" Greenland or military action, reviving Trump's old ambitions.
• There is already a U.S.-Greenland military treaty, making the bravado more symbolic than necessary.

Main Discussion Points:

• Motivation: Legacy, Showmanship:
  Kara: “He wants to be the first US President to expand territory since whoever was.” ([26:23])
  • Bill and Audie see this as part of Trump’s mounting desire for legacy, symbolism, and confrontation with allies ([25:25], [26:32]).
• Foreign Policy by Transaction:
  Audie calls out Trump’s shallow, transactional foreign policy: “Google called it transactional predation of resources...” ([26:52]).
• Historical Perspective:
  The panel notes the U.S.'s long tradition of interventions but agrees the current moment is unique for its transparency and theatricality.

Notable Quotes:

• “He wants his face on Mount Rushmore. He wants his face on the coins. He's building his $400 million ballroom. This guy...” – Bill Cohen ([26:37])
• “Let me just add in... Greenland certainly is a strategic [asset]... [but] to me, the best economic thing to do from a business point of view is to help Ukraine...” – Kara Swisher ([28:11])

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4. Warner Bros. Takeover Saga: Paramount vs. Netflix vs. The World

[34:53–47:44]

The Story:

• Warner Bros. Discovery board rejected Paramount’s $30/share all-cash buyout, sticking with Netflix’s previously agreed $72 billion offer.
• The deal landscape is complicated by debt, regulatory issues, and timing (with midterm elections approaching).

Main Discussion Points:

• Deal Dynamics and Regulatory Risk:
  • Bill details distinctions between offers, break-up fees, and board responsibility under Delaware law ([36:22–37:30]).
  • The Warner-Paramount deal faces concerns over operational control, debt, and regulatory approvals ([38:20–40:10]).
  • The timing bump with impending U.S. midterms—and changes in power—means “dragging this thing out is not good for Paramount...” – Kara ([41:14]).
• Political Influence and Transactionalism:
  • Both hosts discuss the strangeness of presidential involvement in media mergers, with Kara warning that the window for a Trump administration–friendly outcome is closing ([41:14–42:10]).
• Industry Insight:
  • The general conclusion: whoever ups their offer (Paramount to $34/share?) may win, but the victory may be pyrrhic due to debt and regulatory uncertainty.

Notable Quotes:

• “Why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?” – Bill Cohen (returning to business leaders inaction, [10:46])
• “For a president to be sticking his fingers into a individual deal, you know, is not normal. There are agencies that are supposed to be at arm's length that deal with these issues... but this president likes to get his fingers...” – Bill Cohen ([46:42])
• “If they don't do it, [Larry Ellison] has bought himself an expensive leaky yacht that he is going to not know how to unload... It's too small.” – Kara ([47:29])

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5. Grok, X, and Tech's AI Crisis

[48:56–57:34]

The Story:

• Elon Musk’s AI bot Grok comes under international fire for generating sexualized images of women and minors—including real-life victims.
• Musk’s firms raise billions in funding, apparently undented by scandals.
• Apple and Google remain publicly silent; the conversation questions why tech leaders, app stores, and investors tolerate this.

Main Discussion Points:

• The “Nazi Porn Bar” Problem:
  • Bill: “X is a Nazi porn bar.” ([50:01])
  • Kara calls out top executives: “Sundar Pichai and Tim Cook, you’re soiling yourself in public by letting this continue.” ([58:15])
• Policy and Regulation Vacuum:
  • Audie remarks on political grandstanding vs. real action: “Do you actually care about this or do you not care about this?” ([52:50])
  • Audie and Kara see a gathering public/political backlash brewing over AI, especially concerning child safety.
• Business Perspective and Tech Responsibility:
  • Kara: “I think the CSAM stuff is going to kill them. ... There’s no business in child porn, from now until 200 years from now.” ([55:01])
  • The hosts predict an eventual "perp walk" for a tech exec as legal, political, and regulatory forces unite.

Notable Quotes:

• “X is a Nazi porn bar.” – Bill Cohen ([50:01])
• “There’s no business in child porn, from now until 200 years from now.” – Kara Swisher ([55:01])
• “Sundar Pichai and Tim Cook, you’re soiling yourself in public by letting this continue.” – Kara Swisher ([58:15])

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6. Predictions

[59:06–64:36]

Bill Cohen:

• AI valuations will crash in late 2026, echoing the dotcom bust ([59:09]).
• Hakeem Jeffries will become Speaker of the House “in a year, if not sooner” ([60:08]).

Audie Cornish:

• Predicts rise of “human verified” social apps as people look to escape AI content: “Someone is gonna find a way to tap into the market of people who want to avoid AI slop and imagery.” ([60:08–60:56])

Kara Swisher:

• Predicts Trump is sicker than people realize, momentum and lackeys will flag, and time is running out for him ([62:17]).
• Suggests the upcoming anniversary/propaganda push will be epic but ultimately irrelevant to meaningful change ([63:37–65:21]).

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Corporate Silence: “Why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?” (Bill Cohen, [10:46])
• On Trump’s Empire: “He wants his face on Mount Rushmore. He wants his face on the coins. He's building his $400 million ballroom.” (Bill Cohen, [26:37])
• On U.S. Foreign Policy: “Criming in plain sight is better... except it’s on a scale that's unprecedented.” (Kara Swisher, [22:32])
• On Tech Industry’s Failures: “Sundar Pichai and Tim Cook, you’re soiling yourself in public by letting this continue.” (Kara Swisher, [58:15])
• On Propaganda and History: “Propaganda is actually the safest word to use definitionally here... we're about to see the country's birthday, in his frame, be completely in the context of him.” (Audie Cornish, [65:01])

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Timeline of Major Segments

• 00:50–14:14: ICE shooting, response, protests, business silence
• 14:32–24:06: Venezuela oil “gambit” & U.S. foreign policy
• 24:19–32:23: Greenland and "legacy" grabs
• 34:53–47:44: Warner Bros. merger & streaming industry shakeout
• 48:56–57:34: Grok/X AI, tech/AI scandal, child protection
• 59:06–64:36: Predictions & final thoughts

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Tone & Style

• Candid, unsparing, and punchy: Hosts don’t mince words and frequently use irreverent humor.
• Highly informed, with both granular detail (on business) and broad political/cultural context.
• Wry acknowledgment of the absurdity and darkness of the moment (“criming in plain sight,” “Nazi porn bar”).
• Regular recourse to unique speaker voices and attributions, fostering lively debate and memorable soundbites.

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For Listeners New & Old

This episode delivers sharp, nuanced takes on rising authoritarianism, corporate passivity, spectacle-driven foreign interventions, and the business-politics-entertainment nexus of 2026. If you want insight into both surface headlines and underlying trends—with a mix of outrage and gallows humor—this is a must-listen.

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Transcript

[Audie Cornish]

Support for today's show comes from Zoom.

[Bill Cohen]

Work isn't just meetings. It's calls, chat docs, emails, events, and more. Zoom brings it all together in one platform, so workflows and ideas move faster. Learn [e-mail] podcast and Zoom ahead.

[Audie Cornish]

If you get mad every time you pick up your phone and start scrolling, it's not just you.

[Kara Swisher]

Rage bait is kind of the currency or the power that's behind a lot.

[Audie Cornish]

Of the content we might see this week on. Explain it to me from Vox why the Internet is pissing you off on purpose. New episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

What I mean is, if a client came to you and said, I want to buy Greenland, what would be the thing? As an investment banker, you would do.

[Bill Cohen]

I want to buy Greenland? Are you out of your fucking mind?

[Kara Swisher]

Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott Galloway continues to be under the weather, so I've brought in two more amazing co hosts. We've got Audie Cornish, host of CNN this morning and the podcast the Assignment, and Bill Cohen, one of my favorite people to talk about business because there's a lot going on there. Author and founding partner of Puck. Welcome, Audie and Bill.

[Bill Cohen]

Hey. Great to be here.

[Audie Cornish]

So I had nothing to do with Scott's disappearance.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Audie Cornish]

Not that I haven't wanted to be on the show a lot. Like, I've been waiting with this quarter zip just so that I could be a part of the dialogue.

[Kara Swisher]

Quarter zip.

[Audie Cornish]

I did. I was like, are we talking business? Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

No.

[Audie Cornish]

So I'm sure Scott's fine. I didn't do anything to him at all.

[Kara Swisher]

No. Okay. All right. You were trying. Yes. That would be a really good show. Trying to take down the co host.

[Audie Cornish]

Like a Nancy Kerrigan situation.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Do you have your quarter zip on, Bill?

[Bill Cohen]

I do, but I don't have a Warner Brothers Discovery quarter zip, which I really.

[Kara Swisher]

I wore that just for you.

[Bill Cohen]

I really like that.

[Kara Swisher]

I got this from David Zaslav himself.

[Audie Cornish]

I technically did as well.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Audie Cornish]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

He gives them out. He dresses. I'm gonna say this honestly. He dresses. I told him he dressed like a lesbian, and he sent me this.

[Audie Cornish]

Only lesbians can say that. I opt out. I unsubscribe.

[Kara Swisher]

Unsubscribe. But yes. It's actually a fantastic vest.

[Bill Cohen]

You look great in it.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. It's really comfortable, and I wear it all the time. And my son this morning said, oh, that's the Scooby Doo People. So I guess that is.

[Audie Cornish]

Of all the things.

[Kara Swisher]

Of all the things.

[Audie Cornish]

That's such a reference.

[Kara Swisher]

For now, we're going to talk about random. It's so funny. Yes, exactly. We're going to talk about that. And I really enjoyed your stuff, Bill. But anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, so we're going to dig in. There's a lot of news and the first one obviously is the fatal shooting of a 37 year old woman in her car by an ICE agent in Minneapolis and sparking national outrage and protests again. The woman, Renee Nicole Goode, was a U.S. citizen, a mother of, of three and a poet. She was not under any kind of investigation. According to law enforcement officials. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem said Good was, quote, stalking officers and attempting an act of domestic terrorism. What a heinous person she is. Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry called that bullshit and told ICE to, quote, get the fuck out of Minneapolis. President Trump weighed in on Truth Social and once again blamed the radical left. He did an interview just where the reporters showed it to him and he sort of walked it back, but he didn't precisely. And of course they're doubling down. Tom Homan for a second was reasonable and he got the memo that they're supposed to call this woman a radical terrorist. I wanna get both your takes here, but first let me share Scott Galloway's thoughts on this, which he texted me last night. I'm horrified. History shows politics becomes a blood sport. A nation's light begins to flicker. Adam Newsom Whitmer Shapiro should announce candid this week and say, if elected, we are going to have the equivalent of the Nuremberg Trials. There needs to be a reckoning to starch the stain of corruption, insurrection and bigotry. Dems are such fucking wimps. That was from Scott, the words of Scott Galloway, ladies and gentlemen, from his sickbed. Adi, I'll start with you. What do you make of what we're seeing? You reported on it all morning on your show on cnn. Your morning show. So talk a little bit about. And you've covered this kind of stuff many times.

[Audie Cornish]

I have. And I mean, talk about grim. Like, I think this woman had dropped her kid off at school like a six year old. And so many people right now, wherever they fall on the political spectrum, feel a kind of helplessness. Like, wait a second, am I really where I thought the country would be? And so if you're one of those people and you decide, well, I'm gonna go out somewhere, I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna be present and this kind. Yeah, protest. And I'm not saying she definitely was protesting, but just the idea that you are in mortal danger now in these scenarios I think is pretty terrifying. Also, the setting, it being Minneapolis, it being this many years after the death of George Floyd, it being in a place where protests went for a very long time and in fact, other protesters were killed. Like it can. It can spin out into something else. And then lastly, the fact that this whole operation, you know, almost 90%, I think 87% of the Somalis in the state are naturalized citizens. Right. They are legal. So now you are really trying to find one and two and three people and you have a city that is prepared. You'll look on your TVs in the next day or two and see some protesters wearing their gas masks already because they have seen this movie before. A kind of militarized response from law enforcement.

[Kara Swisher]

So can I ask you one other question? The response from the Trump administration immediately was trying to spin it, of course. Kristi Noem put on whatever hat she had that day and started to spew lies. And then the videos, all of them were very much different, including Fox News commentators commenting on. Well, she was turning away from the ICE person. You know, she was trying to hit him. She's obviously dropped her kid off from school. I know there's very little known.

[Audie Cornish]

I mean, look, if there's one thing we know how to do as Americans is scrutinize a video of a law enforcement involved killing. I think we had a fair amount of practice at that. We have not had practice doing that with a white mother of a couple kids. And I think this has looked very shocking for people and familiar in ways that feel very sort of dark. The administration's whole stance on this entire process has been always double down, always triple down, never give any ground because they feel they have not just some kind of moral authority, they'll evoke this mandate. You hear over and over on these cable news panels, this is what people voted for. I'll just wrap up by saying we don't matter what the TV news says or commentators. People have eyes and they have social media. And I have watched all of these ICE enforcements and arrests and protests on social media where people offer their own commentary. And I think that is having way more impact than the administration would like to think. Want to think it's a Democratic governor somewhere saying something that's rhetoric that make people say, f ice check the hashtag. You know, it's not run certainly by any Democratic messaging Operation.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. So Bill, I want to bring you. One of the things that I'm watching though is a lot of suddenly business people, well known people. The head of the guy who runs Jeopardy. Spoke up. Right. And just, I just was noticing Paul Graham, who I think you know, he was the head of Y Combinator, wrote ICE just shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis, a US citizen. How long before we say enough? Elon Musk responded. She tried to run people over. And Paul wrote back. And Paul, I wouldn't call him a liberal. In fact, he's somewhat irritating on many levels. No, she didn't. Here's the evidence. She's turning the front wheels of the car to the right away from the ICE officer on her left. She was trying to run him over. Why would she turn in the other direction do you think, Bill? Because a lot of the. You haven't heard word one from any tech people on any of this or any business people on this stuff.

[Bill Cohen]

Yeah, I think we may be reaching a tipping point on that, to use a phrase that a lot of business people can understand. I think this is obviously the inevitable outcome of the wider Stephen Miller agenda, which is heinous in almost every respect. And you know, and you'll have to remember that Stephen Miller's grandparents were immigrants and if his policies were in place for them, you know, maybe they never would have come to this country. He wouldn't even be here. Which might be a better thing. I don't know.

[Kara Swisher]

Grokking Stephen Miller will be a year, a decades long thing for future historians.

[Bill Cohen]

But go ahead. Absolutely. I mean this guy is completely out of control. Witnessed the interview he gave to Jake Tapper the other day, which was happened to be about Venezuela. But the same kind of arrogance and hubris applies here. So I mean these situations are powder kegs bringing in highly militarized ICE officers into neighborhoods and rounding up people who should never be rounded up. It seems so un American to me. I don't think this is what we voted for at all.

[Kara Swisher]

But why have businesses remained largely silent?

[Bill Cohen]

Because they didn't.

[Kara Swisher]

It doesn't affect during George Floyd.

[Bill Cohen]

Well, I mean first of all, that seems like a lifetime ago. The reaction to George Floyd. I mean people have whatever gotten with the program. I remember having a dinner a few months ago with the CEO of a tech company, Kara, who you probably know well, who I asked this exact thing. Why are you not speaking up more profoundly about what's going on here? Because it doesn't affect my business. What affects my business is my shareholders, my creditors. My employees. You know, this doesn't affect what Donald Trump is doing. What the regime is doing doesn't affect me. It's not my business. I'm going to stay out of it. Even though it's totally reprehensible and that these people should be speaking up. I mean, why have FU money if you're not going to speak up and use it?

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, yep, Absolutely. I mean, it'll be interesting. Last thing, where do you imagine this going now with these videos? Will they continue to double down? What is the. Because of course it takes away from their Venezuela capers, which we'll get to in a second. It takes away from their Greenland capers.

[Audie Cornish]

I'll be honest, it depends on what happens next. I mean, you'll notice my eyes are kind of going like this every few minutes is because right now there is this kind of images of what looks like a standoff and between protesters who are like linking arms. And then you have. This is the state of the country we're in right now. I'm like, are these National Guard, Are these police? Are these ICE police? Like, who am I even looking at? And is this even how you do crowd control? Is this how you enforce things? And I just want to add one more thing here. The ramp up that we are witnessing of this law enforcement agency that is not structured the way the others are, does not.

[Kara Swisher]

It's unaccountable.

[Audie Cornish]

It's unaccountable in such profound ways. And I think, think that I will be very curious if people feel like they voted for that. Because when I hear the manosphere and the podcast bros kind of be like, I don't know, man. I don't know if you should be. I can't believe they're doing this. I can't believe they're doing that. To me, that's now reached the stage where the average person does not perceive this as just a mass deportation of criminals. I do think that horse has left the barn. It's now. Do they think that what's being grown in their name, that they as voters should step in and somehow try and stop it or make their displeasure known.

[Kara Swisher]

Which they are have been doing? I mean, Gestapo wasn't what we voted for. I guess that sounds like.

[Bill Cohen]

Can I just add one thing? I mean, I just think we're living through an era of unaccountability. There's no accountability for ice. There's no accountability for Venezuela. There's no accountability for ripping down the east wing of the White House. There's no accountability for redescribing. What happened on January 6th on the White House website. I mean, every day there's an example of bad behavior that would normally be unacceptable in my lifetime. It would be completely unacceptable for our politicians to act this way. And yet they do it with impunity. And there's never any accountability.

[Audie Cornish]

But there is a lever. Just no one's pulling it. I mean, I hear Scott talk like this all the time, but the business community, he seems to have walked away from the awokening and a bunch of them went. That really went too far, don't you think? And so they don't give a shit. Like, honestly, I genuinely feel like they are going on yachts and building up fortresses for themselves and they no longer feel actually engaged with the country in a lot of ways. And I don't say this as some like, raving liberal. I'm just like, they are absent. They don't yank funding from things. They don't yad advertising from things they go to every dinner they have at the White House. Like, I don't know what the business community does now.

[Bill Cohen]

I think they do give a shit. I think that they prefer not to be the nail that sticks up, that gets this madman's attention and then puts them in the crosshairs and they have to deal with some analogous event that they didn't want to have to deal with because they spoke up. So I think they do care.

[Audie Cornish]

But Renee Goode took a risk billionaires won't. And I'm confused.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, all right, well, that's a good point.

[Bill Cohen]

That's why I say, if you've got FU money, why aren't you use it?

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, yep. I have to say I'm with Audi on this one. It's like they could. This is not hard. None of this is particularly hard. And it doesn't affect.

[Audie Cornish]

Your midterms are coming up. You can throw around all your free amendment money, you know, first amendment money, then.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Audie Cornish]

Will they? I'm not holding my breath.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, all right. So now to the latest with Venezuela. Here are some of the highlights of the story since our last episode. President Trump. Trump will meet with oil industry executives on Friday at the White House after saying the US May subsidize the company's efforts to rebuild in Venezuela. In other words, the taxpayer will pay for it, which he estimated would take 18 months. Probably just made that up. On Wednesday, President Trump said US Control of Venezuela could last for years. The President has withdrawn the US from 66 international organizations and treaties, including climate groups. The US seized two oil tankers including a Russian flagged vessel linked to Venezuela in the North Atlantic. The national security leaders have said the administration does not plan to use ground troops in Venezuela. And of course, in related news, the US Is actively discussing a potential offer to buy Greenland and hasn't ruled out military action. I mean, they're not just murdering US Citizens. They're very busy on other things. So, Bill, start, how do you suspect these oil executives will be responding in this meeting? Because it's a dicey situation for them, no matter what. And the price of oil, of course, is not as high as they'd like it to be.

[Bill Cohen]

Right. So how do you respond to this rampant imperialism if you are a CEO of an oil company that might or might not benefit from this imperialism? I think that the economics of the situation do not necessarily lend itself to these companies wanting to go in there. It's going to take billions of dollars to apparently fix up the refineries, which.

[Kara Swisher]

They also had lost previously in the previous sunk money.

[Bill Cohen]

Different companies, whatever. Okay, so you give them a heads up early that you're doing this because he loves to court their favor. But I don't think this is going to be nearly as smooth and as easy. It never is. First of all, look what happened in Iraq. That was supposed to be over in 10 days. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

And good for oil companies. Similar words.

[Bill Cohen]

Right? Similar words. Didn't work out that way. And I don't see this working out that way either. Besides, Kara, we are net exporters of oil now. Why do we need more oil from Venezuela? I mean, this is just this crazy, hubristic, ugly American behavior that I thought we would have learned from over the decades of doing similar things, especially in Latin America. And I'm not. I mean, obviously, if you're the CEO of one of these oil companies, you get invited to the White House by a madman, you go and you listen to what he has to say. But I think as an economic matter, it's going to take a long time before they raise their hands and say, oh, yes, me too, I want to get in here and extract this oil.

[Kara Swisher]

Even if they get a freebie from taxpayers, if he's able to do that at all.

[Audie Cornish]

Which is, yeah, we don't know the mechanisms about how this will work. Also, Bill, I was wondering, in the era of this kind of Trump administration, transactional foreign policy and transactional business policy, everything's a transaction. Yeah. So you can't do a no strings attached situation with the Trump administration, even as an oil company, I would think. Right. Like if they're Gonna not like even Nvidia has to give a slice. So, like, why wouldn't you? And are companies starting to be wary about that?

[Bill Cohen]

Totally. I mean, I mean, he said he's going to seize the oil that has apparently been ours and locked up, apparently. And he's going to sell it on the market and control the proceeds of that sale. I mean, he's got his fingers in all these pies. It's this ultimate grift. The center for American Progress has got a website now that tracks the grift. It's nearly $2 billion since January, since he was inaugurated. This is another part of the grift. And, and I'm always very concerned about. You have these big exogenous events like going into Venezuela or what happened in Minneapolis. What are they doing? What are they trying to deflect from? All right, is it the rewriting of January 6th? Is it Jeffrey Epstein? Is it graft? I mean, taking down the east wing of the White House, the $400 million ballroom? I mean, what kind of crazy thing is he trying to distract us from? It's Wag the Dog, it's Orwellian. And you know, we're just, again, there's no accountability for any of this.

[Kara Swisher]

So if you're, so if you're an oil executive going to that meeting, I have talked to two of them and they're like, this is not good for us, the price of oil. You know, I mean, economically, it's kind of insane on some.

[Bill Cohen]

Why are you going to invest billions of dollars trying to extract oil in Venezuela when we're already net exporters of oil? I don't understand.

[Kara Swisher]

In an easier situation, I mean, the.

[Audie Cornish]

Potential there is huge, right? Like they're sitting on the reserve. It's just, does this administration have the attention span? Is the country willing to do what it takes to secure a long term investment? I mean, no one has the appetite for a very long list of things for the reasons you guys, everyone has said, which is like, like the ghost of Iraq and that whole conversation just.

[Bill Cohen]

Haunt this foreign policy and Chile and so many others. I mean, why are we. I mean, what if the reverse situation were happening? I mean, honestly, what if Venezuela came in, kidnapped Trump and Melania, took them off in Venezuela and then started saying, okay, now we own Exxon, Chevron and all the Conoco and all the other oil companies and we're just gonna extract all the oil because we want to? I mean, right?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I have to.

[Audie Cornish]

Kara, I wanna raise something with you and get your point of view, which is that there's a lot of people who would say all the Trump people really do is overt versions of things that the US has always done covertly. So the long list of Latin American regime change and interventions. I'm just gonna pick a date and go back to, like, 51 or something. Now. The only difference is they just do it. Right. And instead of us playing this, like, absurd game with Donald Rumsfeld about oil and whether it's the oil and whether it's not. And then Jim B. Like, oh, it's definitely. I mean, just nonsense. Now we just have people saying the thing.

[Kara Swisher]

They saying it's oil.

[Audie Cornish]

Yeah. And like, is there something to be said for a. Like, you're addressing everything more directly. And number two, what is for Democrats, what's their response? What are you gonna tell a Venezuelan expat? Like, well, we really want that dictator to stay because we don't like the way they're doing this.

[Kara Swisher]

As many people point out, Madame Maduro is an autocrat and a very tyrannical one. Right. It's not like I think his own people knifed him in the back. That's my take on the whole thing. Is Delsey, who looks harmless but is not in any way.

[Audie Cornish]

She was head of the Intelligence.

[Kara Swisher]

That's correct.

[Audie Cornish]

Department at one point. And she was head of the oil. Like, that regime is still there. They're violent, they're repressing, they're turning on each other. If you're a Democrat, do you just say, but actually he needs to come to Congress. Appropriations. Something. Something. When you have all these people in the country saying, we needed the help. Maybe this. Maybe we want to thank Trump for doing that.

[Kara Swisher]

They do, they do. I mean, but that. It's hardly pointful. Who. He's not. He doesn't. He's not the president of Venezuela, so who cares? It's not his job.

[Audie Cornish]

I think a lot of Venezuelans in Florida do like.

[Kara Swisher]

I think expats who have left. Right. They're a very different group of people. And people. I just did a long podcast with some historian, David Sanger and some others about this, and one of the things that was. Was interesting to me was that there's a real rift between the people who 25% of the population left and the people who were there. And, you know, there's a whole. Again, not our country, not our problem.

[Audie Cornish]

We saw this with the Cuban community and the Cuban Republican community. Right. Like, Democrats lost that community for decades after. And now the Secretary of State is basically the product of that political Lineage, Right, Exactly.

[Kara Swisher]

Which is why they're focusing on Cuba next. But one of the things is, I think criming in plain sight is what you're asking about. They're criming in plain sight. I do think there are one of the things the response was in the. No one's ever done this. I'm like, hold, hold my beer. Yes, they did Panama. Yes, they did Haiti. Yes, we did. Iraq, Iran, like Chile, like, yes, we did. And except what Donald Trump is doing is not saying, oh, it's a democracy thing. Oh, it's because of this. He's. Or it's because of political prisoners. Or it's because he's just saying, yeah, it's the oil. And then you have Howard Lutnick, who seems to be in a bathroom piping up and the minerals. Like, like that. I don't think. And I think actually the Trump administration has made. When people point to his grift, they go, well, he's doing it transparently. Like, so criming in plain sight is better. And it's on a scale that's unprecedented. That's really the more interesting part of it. But it's still. It's still stupid. Like, I don't know what else to say. It's stupid, as Bill pointed out, because of the price of oil is going to come down. Crashing down, presumably.

[Bill Cohen]

Right. I mean, did he really think this through? I mean, you know, the oil executives will go to this meeting, but to get them to invest billions of dollars to refine or get that oil out of the ground and sell it into a market where the price of oil is low, relatively speaking, and we're already net exporters of oil, why are they going to do that? I mean, did he think that through?

[Audie Cornish]

Yeah. And where you can't even get a guarantee from the government that they'll secure the workforce that would do this. I mean, there is no day two.

[Bill Cohen]

And why are we invading another country, kidnapping their president so we can take their natural resources again? If the shoe were on the other foot, I think there might be a little bit of an outrage.

[Kara Swisher]

It's sort of the old if Obama did this, we're sort of way beyond if Obama did this kind of thing. But in related news, speaking of which, speaking of minerals and things we want there and strategically, indeed, important place, Greenland. Now, from what I understand from this panel I did, we can go to Greenland right now and put as many bases on it as we want. We could put 300 bases. We had 17 bases there and we closed 16 of them. So we have every right to be in Greenland from a 1950s treaty. So we don't even have to. We don't have to do anything. We can just open all those things and, like, squat, I guess. Squat in Greenland. I think that's the way. I think that's the technical term for it. So what happens? But it has created this NATO crisis, existential crisis. Especially if he does something with the military rather than just offer to buy it. Thoughts? First, Audie and then Bill.

[Audie Cornish]

Oh, no, I want to hear Bill first.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm kind of curious. Economically, is it a good. Is it a good deal?

[Bill Cohen]

Look, he doesn't care, as he's proven for years, doesn't care about NATO. So if he's provoking confrontation with NATO and a way to get out of NATO, okay, fine. Or maybe it's bluster. I mean, do we need to buy Greenland, as you said, we can do already or allowed to do what we want? It's just another example of this crazy, wacky, imperialistic behavior that is so unbecoming. And you would think that we would have learned from our past mistakes in this area. And it makes people hate us and resent us, which is part of the reason we got a 911 situation is that hate and resentment around the world. And he's fomenting it without any accountability. And to what end? I mean, again, if there's a treaty that says we can already put bases there and we haven't done it, well, why not just do that? Why are we provoking a confrontation with one of our best allies?

[Kara Swisher]

I think he wants to expand. He wants to be the first US President to expand territory since whoever was. That is, to me, the.

[Bill Cohen]

So he wants to do his version of Louisiana Purchase, does he?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Bill Cohen]

Well, he wants his face on Mount Rushmore. He wants his face on the coins. He's building his $400 million ballroom. I mean, this guy.

[Kara Swisher]

Never gonna get built. I'm just telling you. Never gonna get built.

[Audie Cornish]

My thoughts is that, you know, I think it's baffling for all of us because. Tends to. First of all, his ideas of foreign policy are often frozen in particular vintage. Right. It's like he really does just care a lot about tariffs. He thinks that's the way to do it. And so tariffs it is. You know, resources and transactional. I think Google called it transactional predation of resources. He sees himself as doing, like, what China is doing or something like that. Now, of course, it's very different. It's very, very different. And it's Often, as you mentioned, Bill, undermining our allies. And I think that it is very. It's very difficult to watch in real time the post World War II World Order and systems be not just chipped away, but kind of kicked in the knee. And maybe like retirement. Yeah, maybe like retirement. It was always a myth, you know, like maybe it was never going to last more than 50 to 80 years. But we are witnessing the falling apart of something that doesn't mean that something else can't be rebuilt in its place. But for sure, I think that it might be baffling to the average person because you're like, why are we suddenly talking about Greenland? And you can say that almost every week. Why are we talking about X? Why are we talking about.

[Kara Swisher]

Let me just add in one of the. Greenland certainly is a strategic. And there are minerals to be had, whatever that kind of stuff, under a lot of ice. Ice under a lot of ice. By the way, Greenland isn't green and Iceland isn't ice. I'd like to point that out. Thank you for that. Anytime. Anytime. But to me, the best economic thing to do from a business point of view is to help Ukraine, because that is a country, if it was renovated, they have high technical expertise. We would. Speaking of us benefiting economically, that's our best economic bet.

[Audie Cornish]

That's like the one thing we won't do.

[Bill Cohen]

Right.

[Audie Cornish]

It's like we're doing everything but we.

[Kara Swisher]

Won'T do, which is shove the Russians out and create a very vibrant technologically forward. We would make a lot of bank there versus a Greenland or a Venezuela or anywhere else. To me, if that's your criteria, is what's the best deal. To me, Ukraine is the best deal. If you're just going to be that venal of.

[Audie Cornish]

Can I raise one more thing that's sort of baffling to me? You have a generation of Republicans in maga, world whatever, who were against the forever wars. You have Navy SEALs in Congress now, lawmakers. They're there because they were against forever Wars. They were against our actions abroad and interventions and they hate the neocons and they're kicking dirt over Dick Janey's grave. And I don't understand them right now. I don't know if this is gonna be like the fiscal hawks who just sort of like squirm away, you know, and don't say anything about what he's doing. But when it comes to foreign policy, the far right that is against interventionism has lost on every single argument, like whether it's Iran, whether it's whatever. Like he doesn't care what they think about that.

[Kara Swisher]

Massy Greene talking. There are people. There are people. Green has been talking about it. Massey.

[Audie Cornish]

But it's like leaving give 0F's anyway, like Rand Paul. I mean, it's sort of the same handful of people. And I legit. It's like Lindsey Graham has gotten his wings again. And all those people who allegedly didn't want intervention are oddly silent in these moments.

[Kara Swisher]

Bill, last question here. Is there any economic goodness to this.

[Bill Cohen]

Of trying to divide Greenland? I mean, again, first, you're a deal guy. It's. It's so unattractive the way he's going about it and doing what he's doing. Are there economic benefits? There might be. Cara, how the hell are we going to know? I mean, how do we know right now whether there might be economic benefits? First of all, what I mean is.

[Kara Swisher]

If a client came to you and said, I want to buy Greenland, what would be the thing, as an investment.

[Bill Cohen]

Banker, you would do, I want to buy Greenland? Are you out of your fucking mind?

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Bill Cohen]

Are we going to piss off one of our best allies to try to obtain this block of ice that may have strategic value? And if it's like strategic defensive value, as you said, we already have the right to put bases up there. Why did we close 16 of the 17, let's open them again, or whatever it is. If it's like controlling the Arctic and having a policy matter and a national defense issue. Okay, I get that. I get that. But what? You want to mine some minerals under a mile of ice? Yeah, that might work. Maybe with global warming. Of course, that's not an issue anymore. We're not warming up anymore, apparently. So it's going to be like many.

[Kara Swisher]

Millennium before we ever spoke to a client like that.

[Bill Cohen]

Oh, that's the way I would speak to them now.

[Audie Cornish]

One thing, Bill. I think there's so much foreign policy action that I think when you look at, say, the Abraham Accords for the Trump administration, they feel like if you can get people doing business together that inherently creates the environment for peaceful interaction, that the money is what is going to make those things work. Not arbitrary red lines in diplomatic conference rooms. And I guess I just want your opinion.

[Bill Cohen]

Maybe. But so far it's just been a graft. For the Trump administration and the Trump family, it's all been about graft. It hasn't been about opening up. Really.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, technically grift, but graft too. All right, when we get. We're gonna take a quick break and come back maybe I've coined a new term, Bill's and my favorite topic Warner Brothers Rebuffs Paramount Again. No surprise. This podcast is brought to you by Netflix. Presenting Jay Kelly co written by Noah Baumbach and Emily Mortimer Golden Globe nominee George Clooney stars as Jay Kelly, a famous movie actor on a journey of self discovery as he reflects on his career and the relationships with his father, his daughters and his devoted team led by his manager, played by Golden Globe nominee Adam Sandler. The LA Times raves it's a fully formed knockout and the Wall Street Journal hails J. Kelly the Best Picture of the Year. I just saw it. I agree. It's a really terrific watch and George Clooney is fantastic in it for your awards consideration.

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[YourRichBFF (Financial Expert)]

This week on Net Worth and Chill. I'm giving you an exclusive sneak peek at my new book, well endowed, hitting shelves February 3rd. I wrote this book because I believe everyone deserves to build wealth that actually works for their life, not just follow some cookie cutter financial advice that wasn't made for us. I'm sharing the real strategies for building generational wealth, investing with confidence, and creating the financial future you actually want. This isn't just another personal finance book. It's a roadmap for taking control of your financial destiny and building the kind of wealth that gives you options, freedom and peace of mind. Pre order well endowed now, wherever books are sold and get ready to transform your relationship with money, listen to this week's episode wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com YourRichBFF.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm back with Audie Cornish and Bill Cohen. Warner Brothers Discovery has rejected Paramount's latest buyout offer, urging its shareholders to stick with Netflix. Warner Brothers said Paramount's bid was not superior to the $72 billion Netflix offer for its studios and streaming businesses. The board also flagged the uncertainty risk around Paramount's offer, saying it would effectively be a leveraged buyout, the largest in history. This comes after Larry Ellison St. Stepped in to personally backstop Paramount's offer with a $40 billion equity guarantee. And just a little while ago, Paramount reaffirmed its $30 a share all cash offer for Warner Brothers. No more. Bill, you've done a lot of reporting on this. And let me just add in how Versant also. Versant is what I like to call it, like croissant factors in all of this. Comcast completed its spinoff of Versant this week, which includes MSNow, CNBC and other networks. Versant shares closed down 13% on their first day and now down 29% for the week, although that is index funds repurposing themselves, according to many investors. And I think that's correct. All. Well, Paramount has been arguing that Warner's cable channels stub are worth around a dollar a share. Let's talk a little bit about this now. Audi works for cnn, which is.

[Audie Cornish]

Yeah, that's my disclaimer. WDD is the parent company.

[Kara Swisher]

Is the parent company. I am a contributor to them. But I will be leaving if Paramount gets it. So I don't. And I don't give a. So I'm going to. Lottie, you may weigh in as you want. I am.

[Audie Cornish]

No, I am literally here to learn on this front.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Audie Cornish]

All right.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Bill, why don't you walk us through this and what happens next?

[Bill Cohen]

Sure. Well, the key point of what just happened was this idea that the paramount offer at $30 a share is deemed by the board of WBD not to be, quote, superior at this time. Okay. Because if they did deem it to be superior, whatever that means, that's a sort of a vague term, which comes a lot of judgment comes into that. If they did deem it to, they could break their merger agreement with Netflix and turn their attention to the Paramount deal. They would owe Netflix a breakup fee of $2.8 billion, and then the bidding war would begin again. So they did what you would expect them to do, which was say, why are we gonna. We've got this merger agreement with Netflix. We're happy with it, we think it's worth more. And there's no reason at this moment to. To change that recommendation. That doesn't mean that if Paramount were to raise its bid, as it sort of indicated that it might do because it said it hadn't made its best and final offer, but yet it hasn't done anything beyond $30 yet that they wouldn't change that recommendation and open up the bidding warranty.

[Kara Swisher]

They did note they would listen. One of the board members noted that on cnbc like if they want to lob another number over, we're happy to take it.

[Bill Cohen]

Well, they are in what is called revlon mode now of selling. They have to sell the company to the highest bidder. They are required by Delaware law essentially to do that. And that's why they're constantly re evaluating these two bids. And once again they've, I mean there's no difference between this, you know, the December 4th final bid that Paramount made of $30 a share hasn't changed in a month. So if they want to upset the Apple card here, they are going to have to raise their bid. Now. They may not want to.

[Kara Swisher]

You also had noted these fees of that Paramount want more control over certain loans and there's a lot of money there. Correct?

[Bill Cohen]

Yes. Warner Brothers is concerned about the way that Paramount would let them operate their own company between signing and closing. And since it's like an 18 month process generally to get this kind of a deal regulator's approval both in the EU and here to get it closed, they need to know that they can operate their business in the normal course. And. And Paramount put several covenants into their proposed merger agreement that would limit the flexibility that Warner Brothers has during that period. And Warner Brothers believes that that would.

[Kara Swisher]

Cost them which Netflix has said no problem.

[Bill Cohen]

Netflix has said, you know, do what you want. Which is another reason that they're gone with the Netflix deal. Netflix also said, you know, if you don't take our deal, we're gonna walk away. Which you know, put a little gun to their head. And so they, you know, they went with the bird in the hand and at the time it was the better deal. It made total sense and it's still basically makes total sense. It's a real toss up now because of the value of this global network stub. The part of the business where Audiworks CNN is potentially going to be spun off under the Netflix deal. And so the value of that business is a spun off entity comes into play under the Paramount deal. They're buying the whole company. So that's a moot point. So that's why, you know, trying to judge the value of the two offerings.

[Kara Swisher]

So it's what it's valued at. Right. And certain people. 3 to 5. 3. $3 a share now.

[Bill Cohen]

$3 a 3 to 5. The chairman of Warner Brothers Discovery Board said on CNBC, 3 to $5. Morgan Stanley says, you know, $1.50. The Paramount people say $1.40.

[Kara Swisher]

And there's all debt issues around. If they pull some more debt off, it could go up when they. There's what, $15 billion.

[Bill Cohen]

At the moment. They're talking about putting $15 billion on Adi's company. And you know, is that too much? Is that.

[Kara Swisher]

Can you pay for.

[Audie Cornish]

Yeah, that's why I'm wearing a quarter zip. I couldn't afford the full zip.

[Bill Cohen]

But it's not a vest. It's a full quarter zip. If you really want to pay down that debt, you may need to wear a vest.

[Audie Cornish]

Yeah, exactly.

[Bill Cohen]

So, I mean, there are a lot of kind of subtle nuances going on here, which really puts Paramount, you know, in a bad position, to be honest. If they really want to win, they just have to spend more of Larry's money.

[Kara Swisher]

Larry's money. He's got to get Daddy. Nepo Mogul has to get Daddy to pay more. You know, when this started, did I tell you not as smart as you think? Like, and you said they have smart advisors.

[Bill Cohen]

I'm like, they do. I don't think they're listening to them.

[Kara Swisher]

I think that's part of the problem. No, they are. Well. Cause still dumb, right? And you can see that over at cbs. Very dumb. What's happening there? Like, what a way to run a network. Right into the wall, like on the Daily. Essentially, we won't get into it, but they suck. So what happens next? They have to just raise the price. And then what does Netflix do?

[Bill Cohen]

They don't have to raise the price.

[Kara Swisher]

And then there's the whole Trump thing. Let me just add one more question. There's the whole Trump thing, which they've touted their friendship with Trump, but as far as I'm concerned, he's a little busy. I don't think he's gonna. And he's got limited time before the midterms. That dragging this thing out is not good for Paramount because the closer you get to the election, and if the Democrats take over, they will not get it through either. They will lose that ability to control the process. Cause Trump will be essentially left naked without clothes. Right. Essentially. He won't be able to help his friend Larry. I'm sure right now he can' Help his friend Larry. I think less and less every passing day. But your thoughts?

[Bill Cohen]

Well, everybody's now, quote unquote, Trump's friend and Larry's his friend. Ted Sarandos is His friend. Even though.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. He's played it beautifully, I will say.

[Bill Cohen]

But he's a big Democrat. His wife was ambassador under Obama and Reed hate.

[Kara Swisher]

Not sure that matters anymore.

[Bill Cohen]

No, I mean, he wants fealty paid to him. And if you've got a big deal that you want to get through, you're going to pay that fealty. But because it's.

[Kara Swisher]

Except I don't know if he has that power as much as everybody. I don't think he will rush to Larry's aid.

[Bill Cohen]

He loves to get involved in this, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he's busy with other things now, except Greenland, seems.

[Bill Cohen]

I'm telling you, he's our most healthy president ever.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, he doesn't sleep. There's no time.

[Bill Cohen]

I hope you're right. He shouldn't be involved in this.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, so so far I've been right about all of this. So as I said to Scott Altamiran.

[Bill Cohen]

Isn't that going to be the title of your memoir?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, yes, I'm right.

[Bill Cohen]

Look, what happens next is that their tender offer is open till January 21st and they're going to, between now and then, go around their hostile tender offer that Paramount has made. They're going to go around to the big shareholders state, and you noted it.

[Kara Swisher]

Was only a small amount, it was only so far.

[Bill Cohen]

But it's understandable because there are a lot of conditions to this deal that are kind of like the tender offer can't happen unless they have a merger agreement with Warner Brothers. Well, they're not going to get a merger agreement with Warner Brothers unless there's a superior offer. So.

[Audie Cornish]

So.

[Bill Cohen]

Basically, people aren't gonna tender, but they are gonna go until maybe the last minute at most, at best. But they are gonna go around and make this case that their $30 a share, all cash deal is superior to Netflix because of this business of the Audi's company not being worth this three to $5 a share or whatever it's.

[Kara Swisher]

Worth, which is kind of technical and confusing to most people.

[Bill Cohen]

Right. This is the kind of thing that these guys get into the weeds about.

[Kara Swisher]

And so what is your. What's the next they. Raising the price is the only thing to do, right?

[Bill Cohen]

Correct. Raising the price to around $34 a share is the only way for Paramount to win this thing.

[Kara Swisher]

Otherwise it's going to be, what about the Saudis? What about the. There's also.

[Bill Cohen]

It's. Larry's. Another 10 billion for Larry. It's, you know, a dollar a share is two and a half billion.

[Kara Swisher]

Will they. Because it's already non economic, Bill. This thing is already so ridiculous.

[Bill Cohen]

They decided that they have to have it. They've made seven bids. ISIS suspect they're going to do it. I suspect they will raise their offer to 34 and they will win. I hate to, you know, I think they will end up winning, but I, you know, it could, could be wrong. I mean, there's no way without raising this bid that, that Warner Brothers is going to change its recommendation. Not going to happen.

[Kara Swisher]

I, I, I don't know about that. But I think if they do win, they're not going to get it through. That's too much. The time is too short. And by that time it will be be the Democrats calling for blood. And then it'll be, well, there's also.

[Bill Cohen]

A risk that Netflix won't get their deal done either.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, but less, I mean, that's fine, but it's not the same thing, right? It's not like this. I'm the best, Their whole argument has been I'm the best friend of.

[Bill Cohen]

Well, right.

[Kara Swisher]

And it's a stupid argument.

[Bill Cohen]

Well, it's so transactional. You know what, Larry, what have you done for me this week? Did you donate to my ballroom this week or not? Have you made.

[Kara Swisher]

But then Ted could do the same thing. A lot of the stuff Larry can do, Ted can do.

[Bill Cohen]

Comcast did it, which was quite surprising. But everybody is paying fealty now. Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

So, Audie, any thoughts? Any thoughts?

[Audie Cornish]

I know that coming from NPR and coming from nonprofit. Oh, what are we gonna do? The politics will change that. I was not fully prepared for, like corporate media. And it has been an education, like, for sure it's been an education. I think one of the hundreds of thousands of reasons for me not to comment on this is kind of for the thing you guys are saying, which is like, we're in the realm of like, personalities and regulation and the government and, and so it's not the same as sitting around talking about a business deal or even a hostile takeover. It's kind of something else. And if you notice people not speaking up, I mean, A, we can't, right, because we're in the middle of a regulatory issue. But B, to say it's above our pay grade is an understatement.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, That's a fair point. That's a fair point. But by the way, over at npr, they said, fuck you, government. And they're doing great, just fine.

[Audie Cornish]

I had breakfast with NPR host this morning and he was like, we don't even want to talk about it.

[Kara Swisher]

Also, but the thing is, they've moved on and they're doing rather well under Kathy.

[Audie Cornish]

It was always, like I said, it was always haunting us there.

[Kara Swisher]

Now it doesn't.

[Audie Cornish]

Now they're like free. It's like, now you gotta just compete in the marketplace. But lucky for them, they do fundamentally have a brand people trust.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. But I think the way to go is fuck you.

[Bill Cohen]

For a president to be sticking his fingers into a individual deal, you know, is not normal. There are agencies that are supposed to be at arm's length that deal with these issues, and that's the way it has worked. But this president likes to get his fingers.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, I have people often, often let me end on this. I have a lot of people, like, always go. A couple years ago would be like, can you believe he did this? And I was like, I do. I believe it. He's done it seven times before. Let me tell you. He does it. See Greenland, see Venezuela.

[Bill Cohen]

That's why Cary. He does have time for this. He makes time for this kind of crazy show.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't think so.

[Bill Cohen]

All right, well, I think we.

[Kara Swisher]

I just. I just This. I think they have taken far too long for this. They could have done the 34.

[Bill Cohen]

You are right.

[Kara Swisher]

If they were smarter. But we'll see. We'll see. And by the way, and if they don't do it, he is holding a very expensive leaky. Larry has bought himself an expensive leaky yacht that he is going to not know how to unload because that's. There's no way around. It's too small.

[Bill Cohen]

But without doing this, it's only a 6 billion. Only. Only a $6 billion equity bet for him. So if he loses 6 billion.

[Kara Swisher]

But I'. He's just a. He's just a.

[Bill Cohen]

That's why they're serious about trying to do it, because they know that they're at it. They know that they're at a strategic disadvantage without it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. And even with it, still a hobbit. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Grokkit's despicable new lows. Even for the ever despicable Elon Musk.

[Version History Host]

For most of the history of television, if you missed a show, you just missed it. It was over, it was gone on. But then this little company called TiVo came along and gave people superpowers. You could pause live television, you could rewind it, you could save it and watch it later. It was incredible. And the people who had it could not stop talking about it. This week on Version History, a new chat show about old technology. We talk about the history of TiVo and how it is that a company whose products actually no one ever really had or used became known. One of the most iconic stories in tech. All that on Version History. Wherever you get podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, we're back with another headline. Elon Musk's AI chatbot, Grok, is facing criticism from governments around the world as it continues to create sexualized images of women and children. Grok, imagine an AI image generator. Includes a spicy mode that can generate adult content. Meanwhile, Musk's Xai says it raised $20 billion in funding round, exceeding the target of 15 billion, including from Fidelity. Just today. They're making filthy images of the woman who was killed in Minneapolis. The European countries are losing their minds. You haven't heard word one from Sundar Pichai at Google or Tim Cook at Apple who would should have been. See, Sam is supposed to be against the law. So you two, you're soiling yourselves in public but not doing anything about this. That's my point of view. But why? This funding round suggests investors don't care about these issues. I'd love each of you to weigh in. Bill, you first on what's happening here.

[Bill Cohen]

Well, as a great American once said, Kara, X is a Nazi porn bar. And so.

[Kara Swisher]

No, that's me.

[Bill Cohen]

Yes, it was. Thank you. And it certainly is. It certainly is. And this is just another example of it. But look, from a business point of view, Xai and the merger between Xai and X saved X, Right? It saved Fidelity's investment in X, as well as Larry Ellison's and Marc Andreessen's and other friends of Elon's. So I guess. And the banks who are about sitting on $13 billion of loans that they might lose a lot of money on. So that merger saved the X deal, which I gotta give, I guess, Elon credit for devising and conceptualizing that. And now he's raising $20 billion at what, $350 billion valuation or whatever it is. I mean, I guess from a purely business point of view, Kara, you have to admire Elon's ability to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. And you've got to admire, I guess, the fact that suddenly he's now worth $700 billion because of SpaceX, et cetera, going public. So the guy knows how to make money for himself. A trillion dollar pay package out of Tesla. His old pay package was reinstated by the courts. I mean, so, all right, on one level, you have to kind of admire that if you're an American who believes in sort of Darwinian capitalism, on the other hand, you expect Elon Musk, and you know this better than anyone, to eliminate these images and go, you know, whole hog on trying to reduce the Nazi porn bar aspect of what he's created here.

[Kara Swisher]

So why haven't. This is C. Sam. This is porn of children. Like I think he would utterly allow porn of women. I think he's a misogynist. So that's sort of, that's water under the bridge for him, so to speak. But with children, this is something that usually sets off a firestorm, a problem, and any reason why they're like, fine with C. Sam.

[Bill Cohen]

I mean, again, does Elon Musk like to do the right thing when it comes to these things, or does he just like to claim it's free speech and whatever, let it ride. I mean, he reinstated Trump. I wouldn't lose sleep or hold my breath thinking that Elon Musk is going to do the right thing here, but he might do that one simple, basic thing that is so obvious that has to be done, meanwhile leaving the rest of the Nazi porn bar to thrive. So, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Audie, thoughts?

[Audie Cornish]

I'm curious about the people who, you know, like the first lady or Ted Cruz, who were so touting the take it down act, you know, which was supposed to allow people a chance to take down non consensual images, sexualized images and Marsha Blackmore. Marcia Black. Yeah. Again, it's one of those moments where you're like, do you actually care about this or do you not care about this? The other thing I think about is there's this weird collision course between the very moneyed aspect of AI and that culture which says onward no matter what. And a pretty broad based, not quite a moral panic yet, but very much something brewing among parents and in school systems where they're like, ban phones and. And we're Australia, we're saying kids can't even be on there. We're on a collision course. And sometimes it feels like the industry, their plan is just to outrace us, build all the data centers you can, make this thing, make your born bot quickly, just do it all while Trump is okay with it. And then people can't really stop you. Yeah, but I don't.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a policy for everything, by the way. Yeah, like Amazon and taxes, Google and Steal.

[Audie Cornish]

But it's not 1995. Nobody is looking at the industry and being like, well, they do have our interests at heart and they might cure cancer. No one is saying that everybody is just like, I want to throw my phone out the window. I hate this. I'm not on socials anymore. I'm a teen in a Luddite club. Like, the backlash is real. And I'm very curious about going forward if that turns into a political action, so to speak. Is there a candidate who represents that?

[Kara Swisher]

I will speak to that. I think, think the CSAM stuff is going to kill them. They're going to, They're. This is not, this is not a. This is where it stops. And you've noticed that Google settled with the parents of character AI. I don't know what the settlement is, and I did interview that mother and I've interviewed. I'm, I'm, I'm, I've been interviewing a lot of these parents because it's a big issue since 2023, I've been doing it.

[Audie Cornish]

And. But at a certain point, it won't be settlements, right? It'll be, you know what, maybe we're going to have this conversation with the public, in public.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not sure why she.

[Audie Cornish]

No, I'm not. This is in no way judging the decision of parents, but I'm saying, like, this is how movements start.

[Kara Swisher]

I think the reason Google settled is because they are not protected under section 230 on this one. And their arguments were not. Ultimately, if this stuff gets out, it's very ugly for them. And I wish one of the parents would just say, you know what, I'm going to just take you to court. It's just expensive for them. It's exhausting. Their child committed suicide. But the same thing with these imagery that it does. I think there is a group of people that will not settle and they will try everything to settle because so much of this stuff is so heinous. And also what I had is one of the parents read the dialogue and when any parent hears it, you're like, put those people in jail. And so to me, they're headed for a perp walk, is what I feel like this in this issue. And it's well beyond what Australia is doing. But they're going to get a backlash like you've absolutely never seen. Right?

[Audie Cornish]

Yeah. So where does that affect. At one point in Elon Musk, you know what I mean? Like, that's what I'm curious about is.

[Kara Swisher]

Like, I don't think he is like.

[Audie Cornish]

Do you think it's because it just becomes the gutter? Like, this is the red light district of the Internet. He runs it.

[Kara Swisher]

And, and because a lot of, you know, if you've noticed the Internet is becoming less and less useful and people are using it. The AI slowly there. It's really becoming less and less useful. And so the promise was this would be more useful. And a lot of AI absolutely is. I just think there's no business in child porn. There's no business from now until 200 years from now.

[Bill Cohen]

Why aren't. This should be an issue for federal regulation. Right. But you'll never get the Trump administration to do the right thing. They prefer to do the wrong thing purposefully to, you know, own the libs, so to speak.

[Audie Cornish]

But is it just the Trump administration? I mean, Kara, I feel like you and I have talked so many times about 2, 30 and how lawmakers are just very reluctant to step on the toes of industry.

[Kara Swisher]

When this hat. When the. When I started interviewing these parents back in 2024, I called 10 legislators. I'm like, can you please fucking listen to this and do something about it? And they're like, oh, I hadn't heard of it. Like. And I was like, get on it. Like, get the fuck on this. Like, I can't do anything. And I think, you know, and then, unfortunately, the people that get on it are, are sort of have. Have, you know, they. They're trying to kill a fly with a. With an anvil. Right. Like, there's. There's a way to do this. This is illegal. There are already laws in place about this. Yeah.

[Audie Cornish]

But they don't really understand the technology. I would.

[Kara Swisher]

I would prosecute X. AI That's. I would just like time to pro. If there was a very ambitious prosecutor out there. I don't care if it's conservative or liberal.

[Bill Cohen]

You're going to prosecute the $700 billion man.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Bill Cohen]

Administration.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I deal with state. I do one of the big states, you know, just like, in order to have people talking about it. Right. Because he's the one I would go for because he's the biggest and the most villainous. He's the most villainous. Anyway, we'll see what happens here. But let me just say I'm gonna look, it's mostly Elon Musk's fault because he doesn't give a fuck. Obviously, he brought back Andrew Tate and others who are just heinous creatures, but ultimately Sundar Pichai and Tim Cook. You're soiling yourself in public by letting this continue.

[Audie Cornish]

When you say by letting, you mean not speaking out, not coming up with counter technology.

[Kara Swisher]

The app stores. The app stores, they took down a lot of that January 6th stuff. Pretty quickly. When it looked. When I did that one interview with the guy from whatever that site that was used for planning. They've acted before on the App Store, but the. This is child porn and you own this. Both of you. I'm sorry. Anyway, they're in a position to stop it. Like for at least speak out against it or temporarily stop it and get him to do something about it. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay, audience. Bill, let's hear some predictions. I will go last. Last.

[Audie Cornish]

You will go.

[Kara Swisher]

I shall go last. Who wants to go first?

[Bill Cohen]

Okay, I'll go first. I have two predictions, Cara. One is that I do think AI valuations are going to return to Earth in 2026, the latter half of 2026. Not that AI isn't a valuable tool like the Internet is a valuable tool, but just like with Internet 1.0, you slowly slap.com at the end of a company going public, and suddenly everybody falls over themselves to invest. That's where we are now with AI. It's ridiculous. And it will come down to earth and a lot of people will lose a lot of money, which is always, I think, justice to some extent. Not that AI won't be incredibly valuable tool as it already is proving to be and will become more so in the future. And. And the second prediction is one of my favorites, which is that Hakeem Jeffries will be, a year from now the speaker of the House, if not sooner. Yeah.

[Audie Cornish]

More and more people are talking like that. Frankly, sooner the better, as far as I'm concerned. All right, Audie, I would say that this is maybe more a wish. I predict there will be a movement of human verified social media apps that someone is gonna find a way to tap into the market of people who want to avoid a by slop and imagery. And I was thinking of this when I saw Adam Mosseri of Instagram do this big carousel little essay where he was basically saying, like, Instagram as we know it is going to be pretty much dead under this scenario. And here are the things you need to think about. And the first thing I thought is there's gonna be someone who makes an app that somehow is human, verifiable, and that people are really gonna want that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah. Or else get off. I mean, there's a trend among young people of getting off completely.

[Audie Cornish]

Cause as you said, if it's not useful.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Audie Cornish]

Then you just. You can't find your way to it in the day. TikTok is useful for people right now because it's TV to them, they are being entertained by this thing on a loop. But if they're no longer entertained because what they're seeing is an algorithm owned by, you know, the government's friends or just AI slop. And by slop, I mean everything that is just generated for generating sake. Like, why, if you're 14, 15, why. Right.

[Kara Swisher]

Interestingly, the head of. The head of Roku, who's a really smart guy, Anthony Wood, founder and CEO, did say that he thought there was going to be an AI movie hit. AI generated movie hit. He's always talked about the back end, and I think he's completely right. When I interviewed the head of Runway, same thing. There's a lot of backend efficiencies about to be imposed upon Hollywood, and that will be helpful for their business. But. But make the move. When it moves into content, it's a really different thing. And one of the things the Runway CEO suggested is that instead of labeling AI, we label real.

[Audie Cornish]

Yes.

[Kara Swisher]

Because it's smaller.

[Audie Cornish]

Very much so.

[Kara Swisher]

So this is like, that's, that's my understanding.

[Audie Cornish]

So you're telling me the wind is at my back. This is.

[Kara Swisher]

My wind is at your back.

[Audie Cornish]

I know nothing about business, but I'm ready.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. I will. I will do this. I think time is running out for Trump, and I think. Think he's much sicker than people realize.

[Audie Cornish]

Oh, this is a health prediction. I thought this was a political prediction and everything.

[Kara Swisher]

He's not going to get all this stuff done. Like, he's got. There's too much stuff happening and not enough lackeys. I know it sounds crazy, but even the lackeys are probably lacking at this point. And so when I saw that Susie Wiles interview, I'm like, the rats, they getting ready. As I told Scott, I'm meeting with Trump people a lot, and they all are asking for pardon. They're all like, getting ready for inevitable. Which is. Right. They're getting ready for those. For them.

[Audie Cornish]

But that's different from saying there's no after because he plans to stay. Like, I hear you making a prediction.

[Kara Swisher]

That's not gonna. I'm gonna. As Scott says, biology is undefeated and nobody. You know, I'm not sure who's less charming, Don Jr. Or J.D. vance. But as I said about Vance, he's the cybertruck of politicians. But one of the.

[Audie Cornish]

It took me a year.

[Kara Swisher]

You're like, of course. Yes, Correct. Yes. But that's why I talk about the ballroom. I. I think it is. There's also some legal Stuff happening to slow it down quite a bit.

[Bill Cohen]

It's.

[Kara Swisher]

Everything that gets slowed down is a problem, whether it's the Paramount deal, whether it's the ballroom. And I think, by the way, FYI, they do need a ballroom at the White House. Having covered it, there's nowhere to there.

[Audie Cornish]

As odd as there's always a bunch of tents.

[Kara Swisher]

When it has a bunch of tents and there's small rooms, they really are people and the offices are small. It's really quite fun to go there. But at the same time you're like, what a shitty office this is. And so there needs to be some renovation. Just the way it was done was of course awful. But I don't think you're gonna get the huge ballroom. I don't think he's gonna get what he wants. And I think the gold leaf is gonna come down and that. And they will have it. They will have a decent, decent better side to it and that's okay. But the big one isn't going to happen, I'm sorry to say. He's not going to get his Trump triumphal arc arch either.

[Bill Cohen]

So is he going to get his face on Mount Rushmore or on the coins?

[Kara Swisher]

I don't care. Do you care?

[Audie Cornish]

The coins might happen.

[Kara Swisher]

He can have the coins. I don't care. Like at certain point you're like, yeah, give him a coin. Why not like, and Mount Rushmore. I don't care.

[Audie Cornish]

Care.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't care.

[Audie Cornish]

And none of us mentioned the 250 year anniversary. I mean, we are about to see. I think propaganda is actually the, the safest word to use definitionally here. Cara, I'll defer to you because that's your area of propaganda. Because it's going to be the, the country's birthday in his frame.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Audie Cornish]

Just completely in the context of him.

[Kara Swisher]

Which is well done and well, it's a UFC octagon.

[Audie Cornish]

It's whatever. I mean, just something that could be very sort of academic and a little sleepy and history nerd in another year is going to be something else.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I just think. I don't care. Go ahead, go for it, old man. It's your last hurrah. Go for it. I don't give. I'm not going to get mad about those things anyway, so we'll see about that. But it's time TikTok, as they say. Anyway, I really appreciate it, but let me just read this. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about if you don't agree with me or Bill or Audie or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot send a question for the show or comment or call 85551. Pivot, again, that is the show. Thank you so much. Audie and Bill came on at the last minute, and I really appreciate it. It was incredibly substantive and really helpful for people because right now, a total.

[Audie Cornish]

Honor to meet you this way. This is so cool. Thank you, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

You had a great job together. You had a lot of nice rapport.

[Audie Cornish]

With the two of you.

[Kara Swisher]

And anyway, and the thing is, the last show was Brooke Hammerling, Stephanie Rule, and Don Lemon, and all they talked about was speaking of gay porn, heated rivalry. So this was a little different.

[Audie Cornish]

Oh, my God. All right, well, ask me back to this show. I don't want to have to, like harm Scott every time I want to come back.

[Kara Swisher]

Don't you worry. Absolutely. Both of you have been valued contributors to a lot of my podcasts, and I really appreciate it. So please watch, listen to, and read all the amazing work they're doing at cnn. And Puck. Audie has the morning show. Bill has a much must must read column that is so helpful to me in understanding these things. Anyway, thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, which is doing rather well, I have to say. We'll be back next week and I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Manolo Moreno edited this video. Nishant Scott Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Scott, come home.