U.S.-China Trade Deal, Trump's Plane Grift, and the American Pope

Summary

Pivot Podcast Episode Summary: "U.S.-China Trade Deal, Trump's Plane Grift, and the American Pope"

Release Date: May 13, 2025
Hosts: Kara Swisher (Tech Journalist) and Scott Galloway (NYU Professor)
Podcast Network: New York Magazine and Vox Media Podcast Network

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1. Introduction

In this episode of Pivot, hosts Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway dive deep into some of the most pressing issues in tech, business, and politics. Skipping the usual advertisements and casual banter, the duo focuses on the implications of the recent U.S.-China trade deal, President Trump's controversial acquisition of a luxury plane from Qatar, and the election of Pope Leo XIV—the first American Pope.

---

2. U.S.-China Trade Deal

Kara Swisher opens the discussion by presenting the details of the newly reached U.S.-China trade agreement:

• Tariff Reductions: The U.S. has agreed to reduce tariffs on Chinese goods from 145% to 30%, while China will cut its tariffs on American products from 125% to 10%. These changes are set to take effect on Wednesday, accompanied by China’s suspension of countermeasures like restrictions on rare earth metals.

• Market Reactions: The stock markets responded positively, with the Dow Jones Industrial Average surging by 1,000 points at the opening bell.

• Scott Galloway critiques the deal as a form of capitulation, questioning the rationale behind initially imposing high tariffs and then negotiating them down so swiftly. He argues that the temporary reduction is a tactical victory for China, allowing them to continue their strategic divestment from the U.S. economy. Scott states at [14:37]:

  "This is capitulation. You don't show up and levy say you're levying 145% and then a week later start negotiating against yourself and saying they're unsustainable."

• Economic Implications: Galloway highlights the broader economic fallout, mentioning a 6% drop in the U.S. dollar index year-to-date and a $10 billion loss from the stock market, primarily affecting major tech giants like the Magnificent Seven. He emphasizes the long-term damage to the U.S.'s reputation as a reliable trading partner.

  "This is just, just stupid... America has taken for granted just how powerful. Having the dollar as the reserve currency..."

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3. Trump's Plane Grift and Qatar Relations

The hosts shift focus to President Trump's latest maneuvers involving Qatar:

• Luxury Boeing 747800 Gift: The Trump administration plans to accept a $400 million Boeing 747800 from Qatar, intended to be retrofitted as a new Air Force One. Trump comments on the transparency of this transaction, though skepticism arises regarding the ethical implications.

  Kara mentions at [19:09]: "It's the griftiest grift yet. I mean, this is just..."

• Scott Galloway condemns the move as a stark example of government capture and corruption:

  "While they host our largest military base in the region, they also maintain cozy relationships with Iran and Hamas... This is not just corruption, it's the purchase of American influence from the Oval Office to our universities... [55:25]"

• Impact on U.S.-Middle East Relations: Galloway criticizes the administration for worsening America's leverage in the Middle East by fostering ties with authoritarian regimes that fund terrorist organizations like Hamas.

  "America's leverage in the Middle east deteriorates as our president becomes essentially an employee of Qatar Airways with nuclear codes."

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4. The American Pope - Pope Leo XIV

A significant highlight of the episode is the election of Pope Leo XIV, the first American Pope, and its ramifications:

• Vision and Technology: Pope Leo XIV laid out his papacy vision over the weekend, emphasizing AI as a crucial issue for humanity and was notably seen sporting an Apple Watch during his first official mass, symbolizing his tech-savvy approach.

  Kara states at [25:21]: "He also seems to be very techy. Pope. Let's invite him on the show."

• Reactions from MAGA Supporters: While many celebrate the first American Pope, figures like Laura Loomer label him as "woke," and Steve Bannon predicts friction with Trump, indicating a polarizing reception among conservative circles.

• Political Leanings and Background: Research shows Pope Leo XIV has participated in both Republican and Democratic primaries, critiquing Trump's policies on platforms like X. His diverse background, including Creole and Haitian heritage, adds to his unique position in the Catholic Church.

• Scott Galloway's Insight: Galloway interprets the election as a reflection of America's current moral and political climate, noting:

  "The founding fathers wanted checks and balances, not deposits and withdrawals from foreign powers. So this is a yet again and I'm at a point where it's pretty easy and I think the other side loves it, how outraged we are." [55:25]

• Cultural and Religious Shift: Kara and Scott discuss the broader cultural implications, including the conservative shift within the Catholic Church and the challenges Pope Leo XIV faces in balancing modern technology with traditional values.

---

5. Chaos at Newark Airport

The episode also covers ongoing issues at Newark Airport:

• Frequent Outages: Newark has experienced three outages in under a week, causing significant disruptions. The hosts express concern over the aging infrastructure of U.S. air traffic control systems.

• Government's Response: Scott Galloway criticizes Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy for his handling of the situation, describing him as incompetent and blaming his reckless budget cuts.

  "We're dealing with really old equipment. We're dealing with copper wires, not fiber... [35:25]"

• Safety and Economic Impact: While assuring listeners that air travel remains safe, Galloway emphasizes the economic toll of such outages, which include delays costing families, businesses, and overall national productivity.

  "I find peace at Sam Vicente Bungalows talking to some people." [61:33]

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6. Elizabeth Holmes' Partner Launches New Company

The duo touches upon Elizabeth Holmes' partner, Billy Evans, and his new venture:

• Hamanthus Diagnostics: Evans is raising funds for Hamanthus, a company touted as the future of diagnostics, aiming to revolutionize health testing with blood, saliva, and urine analyses. Plans include developing a stamp-size wearable for humans.

• Concerns Raised: The hosts express skepticism, noting the lack of regulatory oversight and the overshadowing association with Holmes' fraudulent past.

  Kara Swisher remarks at [42:01]: "I just think it's a little bit too much on the nose. I don't know. What do you think?"

• Scott Galloway shares his perspective on the severity of Holmes' sentence and questions the strategic wisdom behind Evans' efforts to redeem their image through a new startup.

  "The story won't be the startup whether it's a good idea or a bad idea. The story will be reminding everybody that his wife... committed fraud." [45:26]

---

7. OpenAI and Microsoft's IPO Negotiations

Another key topic is the potential Initial Public Offering (IPO) of OpenAI, in collaboration with Microsoft:

• Investment and Partnership: Microsoft has invested $13 billion in OpenAI and is negotiating terms that would allow OpenAI to go public. This move is seen as pivotal in the competitive landscape of AI development.

• Scott Galloway's Analysis: Galloway underscores the strategic importance of this IPO in the capital war for AI dominance, predicting that OpenAI aims for a valuation between $400-$500 billion to outspend competitors.

  "This is a capital war around getting the best talent, striking the best deals, making acquisitions... [47:02]"

• Market Competition: He highlights the fierce competition with companies like Meta's Llama, suggesting that technological differentiation in AI is increasingly challenging as advancements rapidly evolve.

  "It's a race... Marke has no guardrails of anything. So we'll see what happens." [48:39]

---

8. Wins and Fails

In the concluding segment, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway reflect on recent events, highlighting notable successes and failures:

• Wins:

  • Nick Kristof's Exposé: Kara praises Kristof's New York Times column revealing internal emails from Pornhub that expose the company's negligence in handling child pornography, emphasizing the need for stringent oversight.

    "Kara says at [52:39]: These people should be sued back into the dark ages for what they're doing here."

  • New York's Smartphone Ban in Schools: Recognized as a positive move towards reducing distractions and improving academic focus.

  • Cecily Strong's SNL Return: Celebrated for her comedic portrayal of Judge Jeanine Pirro, bringing levity to serious political discussions.

• Fails:

  • Pornhub's Corporate Negligence: Highlighted as a significant failure in corporate responsibility and ethical management.

  • Jeanine Pirro's Appointment as Interim U.S. Attorney: Criticized as an irresponsible and incompetent choice, reflecting poorly on administrative decisions.

    Scott remarks at [52:39]: "The guy she replaced was venal and evil, but that doesn't mean she's any good."

---

9. Personal Anecdotes and Lighthearted Moments

While primarily focusing on substantial topics, the hosts share personal stories, including:

• Kara's Flight Experience: Recounting her conversation with Speaker Pelosi on a flight, highlighting Pelosi’s surprising knowledge and work ethic.

  "She pulled out... immediately, just out of this, she was almost like the Wikipedia herself." [05:20]

• Mother's Day Celebrations: Sharing heartfelt moments about celebrating Mother's Day, emphasizing family bonds and personal growth.

• Humorous Exchanges: Light-hearted banter about relationship dynamics and personal lives, providing a glimpse into the hosts' personalities.

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Conclusion

This episode of Pivot offers a comprehensive analysis of significant geopolitical and economic developments, intertwined with personal insights and candid discussions between Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. From critiquing international trade strategies and governmental corruption to exploring the cultural impact of an American Pope, the hosts provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of current events. Their blend of humor, expertise, and critical thinking makes for an engaging and informative listen for those keen on the intersection of technology, business, and politics.

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For more insights and detailed discussions, tune into Pivot every Tuesday and Friday on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from smartsheet. Have you ever wondered about all the incremental steps it takes to launch a rocket ship or maybe get a race car around a track or perform a life changing surgery? These feats of human ingenuity are executed by many people, taking many steps that lead up to one big goal, making the seemingly impossible possible. Whether you're organizing a team, scaling a business, or sending a rover across the solar system, smartsheet is a work management platform that helps all those details turn into one big leap. Smartsheet, work with Flow. Learn more at smartsheet.com Vox this podcast is supported by Google.

[Scott Galloway]

Hi folks.

[Kara Swisher]

Logan here and Tulsi. We're from the Google DeepMind team.

[Scott Galloway]

Quick update for developers out there.

[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Support for this show comes from ServiceNow who are enabling people to do more fulfilling work. The work they actually want to do. You know what people don't want to do? Boring, busy work. But now with AI agents built into the ServiceNow platform, you can automate millions of repetitive tasks in every corner of the business. It, hr, customer service and more. And that means your people can focus on the work they want to do. That's putting AI agents to work for people. It's your turn. Get [e-mail] AI agents.

[Scott Galloway]

You can come over, we'll do edibles, watch Meet the Press on my computer. Fun time.

[Kara Swisher]

Hi everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm Scott Galloway.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, did you hear who my seatmate was? Your favorite person. On my way to California to talk to Democrats, I can't say.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, Gordon Gecker. I mean, Speaker Emirates of Pelosi.

[Kara Swisher]

She was delightful. She's a delightful seatmate, I must say. Let me just tell you one thing about her. First of all, I recognized it was her because it was a plane full of political people. Zoe Lofgren was on there. Eric Swalwell was on there. But someone yelled out white smoke really loudly. An older lady. And it turned out to be her. And spent much of the beginning of the flight Having me figure out who the Pope was for her. She's, you know, quite Catholic and carrying lots of newspapers. Constantly moving throughout the entire thing. I mean, she's in really good shape for someone of her age. Of any age, actually. So it was fun. We had a good time. She says hi.

[Scott Galloway]

I think she's very fashionable.

[Kara Swisher]

She is. Well, she was wearing a very comfortable but fashionable outfit, I would say. I would say very. But comfortable. And one of the things that struck me was how many people came up to her. I know you have antipathy towards her, but most people don't. It was astonishing how many people gave her notes and handed her little things saying they loved her and this and that. It was interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, I don't. I think she's been a great representative. I think she's a powerful, smart woman. I also think she engages in wild corruption. So.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, not like a Qatari airplane thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, we'll get to that. But the slow creep has not helped.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I agree. The stock thing has to be dealt with throughout. Throughout Congress, by the way. And there was a Republican who did it, who was saying he was against it, and then he suddenly was doing a lot of trading. Marjorie Taylor Greene. They shouldn't be trading. And again, I think your idea of paying them more is a great idea in order to get them off of that. Because another part, you're smart people, you want to make some money, and you can't help yourself. But you do have insider information to a lot of things.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, I've said this over and over. I'm trying to be better about coming up with solutions. I think there should be a bill, and I think there's a decent chance it would pass, but.1 million a year for representatives, 3 million a year for senators, 10 million a year for the president in exchange for a zero tolerance policy on corruption.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, but then how do you like. The Trump people have really taken it to the most extreme.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I agree, but that's a separate conversation. I'm trying to talk about solutions. The Singapore model works because what ends up happening is the money they get costs so much more in terms of loss of faith in the markets, in terms of people's reticence to invest in certain companies.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gonna agree with you. I'm gonna agree with you. All I have to say is I love a lady who has a pile of newspapers all crumpled up. She pulled out stories. She knew where everything was. It was. It was quite nice, actually. It made me feel of a different era. I liked it.

[Scott Galloway]

A bunch of newspapers Crumpled up.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, she carried lots of. She reads newspapers on paper, like, instead of digitally. And at one point, when I figured out for her who the Pope was by getting online and stuff like that, she said, ah, him. And then she fished out of this pile of newspapers an article the New York Times had done on this particular man who became the Pope. And she was like, hmm, I wonder if he's too conservative. Like she. He was. She was like, immediately, just out of this, she was almost like the Wikipedia herself. It was really interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. The guy who lived across the hall from me and the faculty housing also collected newspapers, also spoke to himself and was 108.

[Kara Swisher]

I just haven't seen someone have a lot of newspapers. My mother, I mean, you know. Anyway, it was fun. We had a good time. White smoke. Anyway, we've got. How was your weekend, by the way? I was in California very briefly to talk to Democrats who attended. What?

[Scott Galloway]

You're out of California again and you're already back?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm back. I'm back. I'm in D.C. jesus Christ. Going up to New York. I'm staying with you. Just so you know, my son's graduating.

[Scott Galloway]

When are you coming? Wait, when are you coming here?

[Kara Swisher]

I'm not getting there till Wednesday.

[Scott Galloway]

When are you checking into the hotel?

[Kara Swisher]

Wednesday. Wednesday, the hotel.

[Scott Galloway]

Cheap prostitutes and pastries from Baltazar.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay. Okay. Memo to self. Cleaning lady, get rid of the. Get rid of the dildos and the condoms. Okay, okay. Memo to self. All right.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, you're there with someone. And if you wanna have drinks tonight, I'm coming in today.

[Scott Galloway]

Pretend I'm coming up with a really valid excuse for no, I'm gonna just show up.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm nearby. I'm at a hotel nearby. My son's here.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I had a great weekend. Congratulations to your son. I went to one of these new member clubs. I went to San Vicente Bungalows.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, how is it? I love that guy who runs it, Jeff.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, really?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

You know, they're kind of all beginning to look, smell and feel the same. The difference is they're all in the same area now, much of them. So you go to one, and if you don't like the crowd, you go to another one. I mean, it's going to be. So the easiest prediction in the world is there's going to be a Harvard business case study on these private members clubs about how it's over investment, the shakeout, how that each try to find their own lane and their own identity. But I'm not exaggerating I would bet 10 have opened in the last year.

[Kara Swisher]

It's amazing. They're the one in la and it's lovely. The one in LA is lovely. A guy who's a Pivot fan, actually. Jeff. I'm lacking on his last name, but I love the one in la. It's quite lovely. I've been there for lunch. I've been a guest to people. But did you like it, this one, comparatively?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I like all of them. I'm easily impressed, but I think they're nice. I also am at the age where I don't want to. I don't want to wait in line. I want to go somewhere that they don't allow in other people that I shouldn't be there. I need to be in a safe space. The oldest and ugliest person in the room.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

And that happens at these places.

[Kara Swisher]

Good, good. Would you care to say which one you like best or not?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, my favorite is zero mon, because I like the owner and I think they do a nice job and it's just sort of my cheers. I like it there. And it's sort of the original one that kind of took private members clubs to the next level, if I had to guess. I'm fascinated by markets. If I had to guess. I think the two that will survive sort of the HBO and the Netflix are Zero Bond and Casa Cipriani, which just has its own kind of Euro trash crowd. And that's a nice crowd. And it's downtown and it's just got a very unique positioning. And the other ones are all like, you know, Hulu and Peacock trying to battle it out.

[Kara Swisher]

All right. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

It'll be very interesting to see what. What goes. What actually survives here.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, so I'll meet you at Zero Bond tonight. That'll be great.

[Scott Galloway]

Zb. We're going to meet at zb.

[Kara Swisher]

I will. I have to speak in front of C, U, N, Y. Is it Cuny? Is that how to pronounce it?

[Scott Galloway]

Cuny?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Cuny. I'm speaking in front of a Newmark Group. Craig Newmark has funded a journalism thing. But then I'm free.

[Scott Galloway]

That's nice.

[Kara Swisher]

So you can meet me at.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm free. You don't drink. I don't. I'm not.

[Kara Swisher]

I know.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm not interested in.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm just going to show up.

[Scott Galloway]

Show up. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

I'll text her.

[Scott Galloway]

You can come over. We'll do edibles, watch Meet the Press on my computer. No fun time. That's what I do. That's Literally, what I do at night, I take edibles and I watch Meet the Press on the computer and I get really depressed.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gonna find you tonight. Do you wanna go to the theater tomorrow night?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, my God, I can't think of anything I'd rather less do.

[Kara Swisher]

I wanna go to the theater.

[Scott Galloway]

That was you trying to up it? That was you trying to, like, go one more? Yeah, no, no.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. I have a lot in New York. I'm interviewing Barry Diller. I'm going on Nicole Wallace's new podcast.

[Scott Galloway]

I was on Nicole's thing. She's good.

[Kara Swisher]

You were on her show? Show. She has a new podcast too now. Everybody's on the podcast.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, so I got. I'm gonna speak out of school here.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, sure.

[Scott Galloway]

I got, I got. This is literally why TV is dying.

[Kara Swisher]

You've done a lot lately.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I'm a total fucking whore lately. So, anyway, so when I'm in New York, I just say yes to everything. Almost everything.

[Kara Swisher]

Not me. I see. As you can see.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, come on, I know you.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyways, CBS Mornings, whatever it's called with Gayle King, reached out and said, do you want to come on? And I said, yeah. I've never been on the show. My understanding is it gets a huge audience.

[Kara Swisher]

It does.

[Scott Galloway]

I actually like Gayle Kane for all the shit she's getting. I like her.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I do too. Except for the flight thing, but go ahead.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, whatever. You know, I've done worse.

[Kara Swisher]

You've done worse. Exactly. That's how I feel.

[Scott Galloway]

And so they. Big assignment, they do a pre call. A fricking pre call with like eight people.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I declined those. You did them decline?

[Scott Galloway]

No, my. Okay. My team agreed to it. I don't do pre calls for talks where I get paid six figures, but they decide I need to do a pre call for CBS Morning.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay. Hard no.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, so I'm on with like eight very attractive, intelligent, 30 somethings who are literally a third of the age of their viewership as they program, you know, as they. As they figure out programming for people. 140.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

And they're taking. Asking me all these questions about young men and the economy and tariffs. We talk for 45 minutes and then I go, can you tell me a little bit about the segment? And they said, it's with Gayle King. And I said, how long is it? And they said, four and a half minutes. And I said, I'm not doing it. Oh.

[Kara Swisher]

And they're like, what you do again? You've done this before?

[Scott Galloway]

I'M not getting up at. Oh, dark hundred hours. Putting on a suit, coming to Midtown, getting in a makeup chair to speak to 800,000 seven year olds for four and a half minutes. And they were so shocked.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, good for you.

[Scott Galloway]

And then, by the way, same night, and I'm bragging, I went on Nicole Wallace's show for 40 minutes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

But I'm supposed to go on fucking. And the thing is, they don't get it.

[Kara Swisher]

And what did you do? Did you go on?

[Scott Galloway]

I went, no. I said I'm out. Oh, this is not. I said, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. I'm pissed off at my team for agreeing.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And I'm like. And it's bad for my brand to show up with Gayle King for four and a half fucking minutes. That makes me look important.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, support Gay.

[Scott Galloway]

And they seem so shocked. And this is the thing. Broadcast news or just cable news, you're. It's one thing that you're dying, but it's another thing you don't realize it yet. Yeah, they literally seem shocked that I wasn't gonna haul my ass to Midtown to be on with Gayle King for four and a half minutes.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep. I agree with you. The call before, see, I always returned down. I was like, no, you can read my threads.

[Scott Galloway]

Four and a half minutes. Yay. We spent 40 minutes talking through these issues. And they want me to answer like one question with gayle king at 8:04am.

[Kara Swisher]

Now gayle's mad at you so I.

[Scott Galloway]

Can sell more opioid induced constipation.

[Kara Swisher]

You're never gonna meet Oprah now. Oh, well.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, that's right. They're good. Good friends.

[Kara Swisher]

Best friends. Best friends.

[Scott Galloway]

They're good friends.

[Kara Swisher]

BFF. BFFs their best friend. It really, truly is. Well, that's a nice story. Anyway, I'm gonna go on a podcast that's an hour long, so I am agreeing to do it. Cause it's anything as long as it's substantive.

[Scott Galloway]

Love, Nicole Wallace.

[Kara Swisher]

She's great.

[Scott Galloway]

Hello, moderate.

[Kara Swisher]

We like her. We like her.

[Scott Galloway]

Hello, moderate.

[Kara Swisher]

I love her. I think she's really great. And then I'm doing Barry Diller. I'm very excited. In person. We're going to do it in person. You want to do it? Yeah, I'm excited. The book is wonderful. Wonderful.

[Scott Galloway]

You want some more inside baseball that I'm. So this.

[Kara Swisher]

What other TV did you turn down?

[Scott Galloway]

No, this activist investor, Smart, smart young guys called me. They're thinking about taking a big position where they already have niac. And they wanted me to join their group. And I'm like, there's no fucking way I'm going up against Barry Taylor. I'm like, one or more of us will end up in the river. And they're like, what, are you scared of him? I'm like, yeah, I'm really scared of him.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

I can't believe that. I'm like, good luck with that. And by the way, you don't know me. And I said that I love Barry Diller and I want nothing to do with an activist play against Barry, against iac.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including maga's meltdown over the Pope Woke Pope and the return of Elizabeth Holmes, sort of, I guess. But first, the US and China have reached a deal to roll back the sky high tariffs they've imposed on each other, at least for the next 90. Another 90 day thing. Under the deal, the US tariffs on China will drop from 145% to 30% while China will cut its own tariffs on American goods from 125% to 10%. These terrorist reductions will go into effect Wednesday. China also said will suspend or cancel tariff countermeasures, including restrictions on rare earth metals that have been hitting automakers and chip makers. The markets are thrilled by this. China. The Dow surged 1,000 points at the opening bell. No surprise. Treasury Secretary Scott Besant was on just on cnbc calling this a pause and saying he expects to meet with China in the coming weeks to work out a larger agreement. I mean, what like why did we go, why did we do this? I guess to get them to do this. Is this better? Better, worse? I can't even tell because the specifics are not there. Bessen also said nether side wants a decoupling, meaning we want to get along with the Chinese. That's probably hello. We already knew that. If you're an American company right now, I don't know what your next move is. And Scott, how many dolls are you buying me? That's what I really want to know. But talk about this deal.

[Scott Galloway]

This is capitulation. You don't show up and levy say you're levying 145% and then a week later start negotiating against yourself and saying they're unsustainable. And it's like, well, why did you put that number out there to begin with? And then say there's a temporary pause, interim tariff of 30%. And, and this is a reality. China gets kind of gets what they want because China has made a strategic decision to divest from the U.S. they have taken the percentage of their exports from 24% to 17, which is huge.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. They're doing the size. Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And as we pretend that our dick is much bigger than it is, we're their third largest trading partner. We're not even number one. So they're fine to slowly but surely go through a measured decoupling, actually, or reduction in dependence upon us. Trump has created so much ill will. I mean, do you realize, and this is the thing people don't realize in terms of brand, for the first time in history, when you do, there was a national, a global poldone of global consumers. And for the first time in history, more people see China as a positive force in the world than the US.

[Kara Swisher]

I cannot believe that I saw that.

[Scott Galloway]

So when opting for where should my kid go to graduate school? Who should I do business with? Who am I inclined? What kind of business am I inclined to meet with? What widget or aircraft should I buy? Chinese or American? More people around the globe for the first time now pick China.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. An authoritarian communist country that follows its people. It's so ridiculous what we've done here.

[Scott Galloway]

And then just on a more economic level, in terms of capital outflows. In the wake of this nonsense, investors have rushed to the exits on all dollar denominated investments. And the U.S. dollar index is down 6% year to date. More than 10 billion has been wiped out off of the stock market. The Magnificent Seven alone lost 2 trillion on April 3rd and 4th. So this is just a massive attempt to claim some sort of pyrrhic victory in exchange for massively trading off the equity that we have developed over the last 80 years. This is just, just stupid. Again, these, these guys don't understand business. They don't understand negotiation. They don't understand even our dollar dominance. People estimate that we get interest rates on mortgages, student loans and credit cards of between a half a percent and a percent lower because so many people buy our dollars to invest here. And so the real damage is incremental. It's like a virus that's eating away that you can't even identify. It's all these little, it's, you know, death by a thousand cuts. And America has taken for granted just how powerful. Having the dollar as the reserve currency, having these inflows of capital, having people feel decent goodwill about us. And he's torn those up such that we can go to 30%, temporary tariffs.

[Kara Swisher]

90 days, all this 90 day nonsense. I mean, what if you're a business. Tell me if you're creating, how do you know? I guess you're relieved that now we're not being insane and ruining. But it's already wrecked a bunch of people's businesses, started planning out the window and what do you do? Because you don't know what this lunatic's gonna do next. And I don't mean China.

[Scott Galloway]

America is meant to be a platform for rights to protect our shores and for stuff. Americans love their stuff. And so a 30% tariff is enough to kind of get trade unclogged again. But it'll be essentially the percent of exports. The US will go probably from 17 down to 15 or 12. And then the next time we try to do it a our products are going to get more expensive here. Give some of the Christmas tree every business and all the shit they order from from China, it'll make the cost of doing business more expensive. And it's done huge damage to our reputation. It's just we're no longer seen as a reliable trading partner. I think, actually, interestingly enough, big winners Europe, who's going to find a lot of. They're going to be able to negotiate, get a lot of products on sale as China tries to keep these factories humming.

[Kara Swisher]

And I heard that they were doing that, they were keeping up sales across the globe. It's just. This is just. And then the song will probably rally because of this, because we're getting out of idiocy. It looks like Scott Besant's just a cleanup lady. Like on aisle five, essentially, correct.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Anyway, President Trump is heading out on the first major overseas trip of his second term this week, with stops in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, presumably to collect new bags of money. The trip comes as Trump administration plans to accept a $400 million luxury Boeing 747800 from Qatar, possibly the largest foreign gift in US history. The plane will be retrofitted to be used as Air Force One, which I don't even want to think about the security implications. And donated to Trump's presidential library when he leaves office, allowing him to still use it despite all the ethical questions being raised. Trump called it a very public and transparent transaction. On truth, Social and press secretary Carolyn Levitt. Tracy Flick, who was just so bad, said in a statement, any gift given by a foreign government is always accepted in full compliance with all applicable laws. It's the griftiest grift yet. I mean, this is just. I'll note The Trump family struck a deal to build a luxury golf resort in Qatar a few weeks ago. I mean, it's all in plain sight, I guess, is the only good thing we could say about it. All the billions they're making and taking from these Arab countries. And he wants to call the Gulf, the Persian Gulf, the Gulf of Arabia. Now another one. I mean, why does he just go there in his plane and live there for the rest of his life? I don't know what else to say. Because was he looking for a place to go if he ever gets convicted of anything? I don't honestly know what's happening here.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, again, I go to the brand. Do you know how stupid this makes us look? That we have to have rich Qataris buy the President a plane that's manufactured here? We're the most prosperous nation in the world, but we need a government that. An authoritarian government that sponsors the Houthis and Hamas to give us a plan.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, Hamas.

[Scott Galloway]

And I have. So I have a group of friends from college, mostly Jews, who are pro Trump. They can kind of hold their nose around the man and his policies, but they found that Biden and Harris's wavering around Israel was really disappointing. And so they're, they're, quite frankly, they're pro Trump, or they voted for Trump because they see him as more resolute on Israel. Qatar basically is the diplomatic mouthpiece and funds Hamas. And so the notion that the Trump administration gave a flying fuck about antisemitism as they try and implement thought control across our universities and is meanwhile saying that Middle east policy is now pay for play, that he's now the ultimate frequent. There's now a new frequent flyer category for Qatar Airlines, and the President is the only person on it. And in exchange, they're going to have leverage over a guy who claims to be focused on antisemitism. I mean, it's just I find that Jews in America that support Trump are kind of like, okay, yeah, there's like the white Christian nationals, the evangelicals are big fond, really fond of Jews in Israel. But if you actually do a little bit of digging, the reason they're fond of Jews is a little bit unsettling. They think we're part of their master plan. When Jesus comes back, it's like, okay, just dig a little deep on what their plan is for us.

[Kara Swisher]

End times. It's all about the end times. Just so you know, I have relatives. I hear a lot about the. Do you know what I did? The bobber sticker my brother made for my Relatives who are very, very charismatic. Christians, I guess I would call them. He made them. They're lovely people, but they have varying degrees of religiosity. But he made my aunt a bumper stick. Said, when the rapture comes, can I have your stuff?

[Scott Galloway]

Huh. I thought that was going to be funnier. How is Dr. Swisher?

[Kara Swisher]

He's good.

[Scott Galloway]

He's good.

[Kara Swisher]

He's in Portland visiting his son right now. He's good.

[Scott Galloway]

His son's in Oregon.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. One of his sons. Yeah. The other lives in Australia and his daughter is in the Dominican Republic right now teaching.

[Scott Galloway]

Wow. I can totally see that. What does his son do in Portland?

[Kara Swisher]

He's working on electrical engineering, I think.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, good for him. At the University of Oregon.

[Kara Swisher]

One of them. Yeah. Yeah. He's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

I can't say what Alex is doing because he signed an NDA, but Alex is doing an energy related internship this summer.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm not exaggerating. When your son took me and my son to work and we asked him to lunch when we were touring the University of Michigan, we asked him what he was doing over the summer and he looked around as if there were spies about to take notes. And I'm like, alex, you're not that important.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, he is.

[Scott Galloway]

You're not that important.

[Kara Swisher]

He is. Don't tell him. He loves you. Do not say that. He's listening right now.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay. He's his. What is he. He's going to a sophomore. He's literally like. Okay. He's like, you can't tell anyone about this.

[Kara Swisher]

All right? You know what? He's a very, very. I love that kid. We had a great weekend.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, yeah. You love him like a son.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I just think he's going to be a billionaire and we should. Speaking of being scared of people, you should.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I'm glad he's on our side.

[Kara Swisher]

He's going to take care of you and I when we're older.

[Scott Galloway]

No, he's going to be. He's going to be my bodyguard and also figure out what. What technology keeps me alive to 200.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you so much. I feel like he's gonna build something really significant. I feel.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, he's got that kind of crazy smart gene.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he really does. Anyway, we can't say what he's doing. He's under NDA.

[Scott Galloway]

I know. It's total, like, top secret.

[Kara Swisher]

I love that about him. Anyway, Trump, you're a grifty grifter. That's all. I don't know what to say. I don't know if you can stop him. But he's, like, piling up the grift like you can't believe. All right, when we get back, how the new Pope is riling up the MAGA world. And we'll also discuss some of our favorite Pope memes. Cause I love a Pope meme. Support for this show comes from HubSpot. Growing a business can feel impossible, but HubSpot's customer platform can help. It's powered by Breez, their suite of AI tools, so you can generate more leads, close more deals, and scale your service fast. With breeze agents handling the busy work, customers are cutting sales cycles in half and saving hours on work each week. Best of all, you see the results in days, not months. Visit HubSpot.comai to learn more. Hi, this is Debbie, your blinds.com design consultant. Oh, wow. A real person. Yep. I am here to help you with everything from selecting the perfect window treatments to.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I've got a complicated project.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, not a problem. I can even schedule a professional measure and install. We can also send you samples fast and free. Hmm.

[Scott Galloway]

I just might have to do more. Oh, okay.

[Kara Swisher]

So the first room we're looking at is for guests. Shop blinds.com now and get up to 50% off with minimum purchase. Blinds.com rules and restrictions may apply. Scott, we're back. The Pope Leo xiv, the first American Pope, laid out a vision of his papacy over the weekend, identifying AI as one of the most critical issues facing humanity. It was interesting. He was also sporting an Apple watch, his first official mass. He also seems to be very techy. Pope. Let's invite him on the show. That would be great. And while many have cheered the election of American Pope, the MAGA folks are not happy. Activist Laura Loomer branded him woke. Marxist Pope Steve Bannon predicted friction with Trump. As for Pope Leo's political leanings, voting records show the Chicago native has participated in Republican and Democratic primaries in various elections. An X account under his name has criticized Trump's policies in the past and also rebuked JD Vance back in February. He's got a crazy Trumpy brother who. What was he saying? He's saying a bunch of things that are really nutty. Brother's calmer. His two brothers. The older one seems insane. He's, as you said, from Chicago. He has a background, interestingly, of Creole and from Haiti. They're calling him also the Black Pope, but he's definitely got. They did some really interesting reporting on that, which is cool. He's been all over the world. He's very International seems fascinating. So we'll get to the memes in a bit. What do you think of this Pope Leo? And so far he seems very vibrant and exciting and interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

I think he's the Pope because of Donald Trump. I think that if you look at the new leaders of Australia and, or the existing leaders of Australia and Canada, basically Trump got them elected, and he got them elected because the other their opponents were more closely associated with Trump. So Trump is basically anyone who's not Trump or represents a pushback on his policies is ascending to the most powerful positions in the world. And I think that's what happened here. I think the palpacy or the papacy takes very seriously how they can have the most impact. And if you look at when the Eastern bloc was really going through a difficult time, they decided to pick someone from the Eastern bloc. They picked Pope John Paul II from Poland. I think they see there's a relevance and a means of adding value by saying when a place is struggling, we pick someone from there in hopes that they serve as sort of a moral standard bearer. My father in law absolutely adores Pope John Paul ii. He's born and raised in Poland. And I think that it's no accident that they've decided that America needs a Pope, that they need somebody. I mean, the best line that identifies or marks this very dark moment in American history is what Bill Gates said and that is that the richest man in the world is killing the world's poorest children.

[Kara Swisher]

That was something, as we said.

[Scott Galloway]

And I thought, Jesus Christ, that's puncturing and sad. And that kind of identifies, that kind of identifies our maga politics right now. And I think that the cardinals who elect, I think they decided that America is in desperate need of a moral standard bearer and the world needs someone that America will take seriously. I was thinking so much about how did my generation fuck up so bad? And I was thinking for me, it all comes back to a personal parable. My.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, you're doing a parable?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, my, my youngest, his always built. He's got the most wonderful grandparents and his grand wife's parents, correct? Yeah, My grandparents have been done average age expectancy. You know how everyone says I'm going to live forever? Like none of my grandparents made it past 50.

[Kara Swisher]

Wow.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyways, so he's just the most wonderful man. Took over the family room to build a train set for the, for the boys and he's always with. With my youngest built these Legos and. And this time he came over. My youngest is 14 and into girls and Snap and fashion and football, and they built about half of it. And then he said, you know, Zsa Zsa, I don't want to do this. I don't feel like it. He wasn't enjoying it that much, and I could tell it was very upsetting. It's like one of those moments when you feel like, that's probably the last time I'll pick up my kid or the last time I'll build a Lego with my grandson. And I was trying to figure out a way to say to him, look, that's not cool. Even if you didn't want to build this or finish it, you should have realized this was important to your grandfather and finished it. And what I've been thinking about is that, you know, I've been writing a lot about becoming a man. I think that my generation and our politics have become more about our feelings as opposed to our values. And that is, we don't do a good enough job of identifying values and then basing those actions and those political views off those values, as opposed to just what makes us feel good or feel like we're part of a tribe or feels some sort of thrill because the other side looks stupid or feels confirmation because we're signed up for whatever narrative the party we've chosen believes. But I do think there's a degradation or a move away from values and as a guiding light, as opposed to.

[Kara Swisher]

Just feels like that guy.

[Scott Galloway]

This guy's really got very. I mean, he's not afraid. He's called. He's called Russia's invasion. He said, Russia is loving wickedness. He's not afraid to tweet about shit. And I like to think that the Church has said, all right, there needs to be some sort of rejuvenation or a move back towards values in the west as opposed to what everyone thinks is going to make them feel good.

[Kara Swisher]

It depends on what your values are, though, because there's a very conservative shift in many people in the U.S. the most devout, and I'm using that term loosely, are the conservative groups that are sort of machinating behind the scenes in the Catholic Church. There's a whole groups of very conservative Catholics. And J.D. vance is a convert, obviously, and is among those. And the concepts are much more old Latin Pope, like Benedict, let's go back to before Vatican II and everything else. And I agree. I think this guy is a choice that they make. I happen to be Catholic. I don't know what. I don't even know what your religion is. But my grandmother went to Mass every Day I got confirmed, I never went inside a Catholic church since really, I did that for her. But there's a real movement, either it goes quite left or quite right. And it's responding to growth in Latin America and Africa and different places, I think, where there's more conservatism. But there is a real conservative shift in this country. And I think Pope Francis was smart to pick all those cardinals, shifting them a different way. And there's one cardinal, that's Cardinal Dolan in New York who's his favorite one who's quite conservative. And I have to say, Nancy Pelosi gave me a walk through all the conservative cardinals in the country. She's obviously, she's not allowed to be to get communion in San Francisco, but I think other priests give her communion and some fashion. But there's a real struggle going on. So this should be a really interesting Pope. But more importantly, there's Pope jokes which were really good. You know, whatever. If Laura Loomer and Steve Bannon don't like something, sign me up, I think. But you share the Chicago Pope one, which looks like a new TV show coming to NBC. Very funny. The Wiener Circle, which I love in Chicago. It's a famous Chicago hot dog stand where they insult you. Puts a Latin translation, he has eaten our dogs on their sign. Someone posted on X. Smart play for the Vatican to go with an American Pope to avoid tariffs. That was cute. And Stephen Colbert put it Holy Father, you had me at jd. Vance is wrong. Did you have any other Pope memes you liked? Or do you have a joke yourself? I feel like you might have a Pope joke. Maybe you don't.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, Carrie, you know, the churches, they're just religious institutions. There just are some limits to even what I will say about the church and El Papa and, you know, I mean, here we go. I will say it was struck me as kind of unusual when the Pope said pets should not replace children. I guess he doesn't like priests practicing bestiality.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I knew that was coming.

[Scott Galloway]

Sorry, folks. Won't stop. Can't stop.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, Michael Che did a good one. You know, that that Trump's Pope picture was juvenile. You'd think the Catholics would like it. Get it?

[Scott Galloway]

The religions actually aren't that different. Jews don't recognize Christ, Anglicans don't recognize the Pope, and Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store.

[Kara Swisher]

Ah, here you go.

[Scott Galloway]

Do you want me to keep going?

[Kara Swisher]

One more, one more, one more Pope joke. Staff says no, but I say yes. Cause I've been.

[Scott Galloway]

Staff says no.

[Kara Swisher]

One more.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, no. The only Catholic in my Jewish fraternity was my roommate, Mike Vogt. And he wasn't circumcised. We used to get high and make him show us his penis and we'd make anteater jokes. That's not really a Pope joke.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, is that. Strange bunch of guys.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm gonna move on. We're gonna move on from that anyway. And chaos at Newark Airport continues. As of Monday, the airport has been hit with three outages in under. US Airlines are meeting with the FAA this week to discuss cutting Newark flights. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy was on Meet the Press this week. And let's listen to what this dingbat has to say.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm concerned about the whole airspace, right? The equipment that we use, much of it. We can't buy parts for new. We have to go on ebay and buy parts. If one part goes down, you're dealing with really old equipment. We're dealing with copper wires, not fiber, not high speed fiber. And so this is. This is concerning. Is it safe? Yes. We have redundancies, multiple redundancies in place to keep you safe when you fly. But we should also recognize we're seeing. We're seeing stress on an old network, and it's time to fix it.

[Kara Swisher]

Bottom line, is it safe to fly in the United States right now?

[Scott Galloway]

We are. We listen. We are the safest airspace for sure. And traveling by air is way safer than any other mode of transportation, which is why I take it, my family takes it. But again, that doesn't mean you don't look over the horizon and say, hey, if there is a major outage, could that be a risk to life? Of course it could be. Which is why we fix it.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes. So Doge, of course, they asked him about Doge, and he sort of kind of squirreled around on the cuts that Elon was trying to make there. One of them was so weird that I was reading about this weekend that Doge made it so you couldn't charge anything more than a dollar to your credit card, your government credit card. Cause they can't buy paper and pens right now because of that stupidity. So Newark. I don't fly out of Newark. I tend not to. I try not to. I go out of JFK or LaGuardia. But when I'm in New York, any thoughts about concerns about air travel and what he had to say?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, Newark is a great airport. And this doesn't, in my opinion, this doesn't reflect on them. What it reflects on is that or look, it's pretty basic fucking logic. When Lloyd Austin was the Secretary of Defense, jets weren't falling off of aircraft carriers. And when Pete Buttigieg was the Secretary of Transportation, we didn't have near misses and shutdowns at airports because air traffic controllers are so demoralized and there's not enough of them. And this guy figures out a way to do his interpretive dance and blame. I actually saw him blame Schumer for this and all these tropes around, around. Yeah, it's the safest form of transit. Do your fucking job. This is totally unacceptable. People, what do you want? People want prosperity. Money is the transfer of time and work. And when you're delaying people for hours and sometimes days at a time because of your incompetence and decision to bring in someone who knows absolutely nothing about government and start making reckless cuts that result in not only a reduction in safety, but a massive expansion and the amount of time people that's taken away from their families and their work and economic productivity again, it's another one of these slow burning, slow burn of our prosperity. And yeah, everything he's saying is right, but they're all, this is his. He's responsible. What is he doing right now to solve the problem at Newark?

[Kara Swisher]

I agree. It's like, when did this suddenly happen? Oh, now it's because now we're here and we figured it out. No, now you're here and you're an incompetent administrator of a very critical part of our infrastructure. This guy seems as dumb as a box of hammers.

[Scott Galloway]

Again, this is another thing that I just don't think Americans. And unfortunately they're about to learn the hard way how incredible our FAA and our government employees and the regulations and the certification and the C check, as someone who's loved aviation their whole life, has been molesting the earth for 30 years and has flown probably tens of millions of miles. And I'm fascinated with planes and aviation. People don't appreciate. What they realized very early on is we're not going to make it like cars, where there's an acceptable number of deaths, 10,000, you know, what is it, 20,000 traffic deaths a year? Because it's worth it. They said, no, this is so uncomfortable to begin with. To put people in a cylindrical tube with recirculated air and then convince them it's safe to travel at 8/10 the speed of sound across the surface of the atmosphere, quite frankly, it's just unsettling. It does not feel natural. But if we can Connect the world. If we can give people the opportunity to fly around the world safely, we're going to have the most unbelievable unlock in terms of human capital being willing to go to its greatest return. Okay, I did this for 10 years. I commuted to New York. I wanted to live in Florida because it was better for my kids, but I still needed to work in New York, so I commuted. Why? Because you can get on a plane and travel a thousand miles and then commute a thousand miles because it's that safe and it's that comfortable and it's that inexpensive. These things are so over engineered, they are so safe. If we had anything resembling the fatality rates of automobiles, no one would get in a fucking plane.

[Kara Swisher]

And also other countries, if you've ever flown in other countries.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, because when planes go down, it's horrific and it strikes a very difficult part of our instinctual fear because we're land mammals. So the idea of dying in the air seems especially upsetting to us. And so they have totally over engineered these things. I've owned planes. The amount of safety it would be. Imagine a car and every six weeks someone had to show up, check the spark plugs, replace them. If your tires showed anywhere, they have to replace the tires. They test the thing over and over. They detonate the airbags to make sure they're working and then put them back to make sure this thing will not. Almost all airline disasters are pilot air. And then they have very talented people coordinate all of this. While sometimes there's 12,000 planes in the air at the same time.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. The fact that it's messing up now is really the testament to the Trump administration and the demonization of our government workers, which has really gone far too far. There's one thing to be critical and want improvements in the money we're spending. But anyway, we have to move on. But this guy seems like an imbecile. And the Trump administration is just presiding over really low quality executives everywhere, which is not a surprise. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, you'll never guess what kind of company Elizabeth Holmes, partner is starting.

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

Scott, we're back. We're going to make quick work of this, I think. While Elizabeth Holmes is in prison for defrauding investors, her partner and father of her children is raising money for a company that wait for it claims to be the future of diagnostics. Billy Evans is distributing marketing materials claiming the company Hamanthus, I think that's what it's called, is a radically new approach to health testing and will test blood, saliva and urine. The company is probably aiming to raise over $50 million. We'll start testing pets with a goal of of developing a stamp size wearable product for humans. Marketing materials reviewed by the New York Times say there is no regulatory oversight. Investor presentations really did not mention Evan's relationship to Elizabeth Holmes. Will there be free trials at the Fyre Fest too? I just, you know, I believe in pivoting, but this seems a little bit too much on the nose. I don't know. What do you think?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, and I got a lot of shit for it, but I thought Elizabeth Holmes sentence was overdone.

[Kara Swisher]

Agree. I have to. I agree with you with this. I agree with you given what other people have done.

[Scott Galloway]

And I found it unsettling. Only 2% of founders of Unicorns are female. And I didn't think there was a lot different between what Adam Newman did and Elizabeth Holmes did. They both lied to their board. They both exaggerated look a different set of circumstances, I think things could have been much different. And people say, well it's health, it's different. She lied about its capabilities. She basically lied to the board and exaggerated the results which quite frankly unicorn executives everywhere do. And I agree she was guilty. I agree she should have gone to jail. And I said publicly I thought 10 years was overdone for a first offense for a nonviolent criminal. And her husband reached out to me and asked me if I would get involved in a campaign to get her out of jail. I said this just isn't and something I'm emotionally invested in and I can't help. I think he's doing him and her a disservice doing this because all he's doing is bringing attention to the fact that she did commit a crime and commit fraud. Because that'll be the story here. The story won't be the startup whether it's a good idea or a bad idea. The story will be reminding everybody that his wife, who's in prison and should be in prison, committed fraud. So I just don't think he's. I don't think he's being smart about this. I think this is strategically. You know what? I always wonder. Young people, it's so hard to read the label from inside of the bottle. Young people, everybody needs to establish a kitchen cabinet of people. And people are willing to do it because people love to give advice, because it makes them feel important. Where you can just call them and say, hey, I'm thinking about starting a diagnostics company. And somebody would say, okay, you realize you're going to bring attention to your wife who is in prison for fraud for lying about the financial results and the capabilities of a similar company. Have you thought this through? Anyone he reached out to who cared about him and was honest would have given him that advice. So I hear this. I just think about this across all of these people when they make these decisions. It's like, don't they have friends? I have a friend who's literally a master of the universe. And he was talking to me about his baby mamas and what's going on within his personal life and relationships. And I said to him, I said, don't you have friends? Who do you talk to about this stuff?

[Kara Swisher]

Did you drop some real comments?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I said to him, I said, don't you have friends? Because this guy is literally one of the most impressive people I've ever met on any issue. He can give you the most reasoned, thoughtful. And then you hear about his personal life, and it's like, so you just took every piece of bad judgment across your entire life and stuffed it into your relationship with women? And I'm like, just a couple phone calls to people saying, hey, I'm checking in. I could use your advice. What do you think? What do you think about this?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Just for clarification, she's not Evans's wife, Scott. She's his partner and mother of the kids. They're together. Oh, she's actually married. That's all right. It's married. Ish. Married adjacent.

[Scott Galloway]

Married. Ish.

[Kara Swisher]

Married. Ish. Like us, you and I. Anyway, Billy, come on, Billy. Anyway, bad idea. And finally, OpenAI and Microsoft are negotiating the terms of their partnership to allow OpenAI to launch a future IPO. According to the Financial Times, Microsoft has invested $13 billion in the company to date and is reportedly willing to give up some of its equity in exchange for access to new technology developed beyond the 2030 cutoff. There's going to be an IPO here. This is interesting. It's the one with the most revenues, the Most users, et cetera, et cetera. And I think they've got to run of everybody else. Correct. I mean this is a race. This is like. And they're in the lead at this moment. It doesn't mean they're going to stay in the lead. A lot of the open systems like Llama, a lot of people feel that that's going to really dominate that Meta will. So any thoughts on this? Because you're Mr. Equity, this will happen.

[Scott Galloway]

It makes sense. So what's happened is there's been a total. The number of companies that are publicly traded has been cut in half in the last couple decades because there's been mergers and acquisitions. And the private markets have captured a lot of the innovation and attributes that used to be sequestered to the public market specifically. You can now raise billions or even tens of billions in the private market. You can get liquidity for your employees because there's an active secondary market. And also you can avoid all regulation and scrutiny and make harder, tougher, deeper decisions without the scrutiny of public earnings calls. What you have with OpenAI and the reason they will go public is that OpenAI is taking and Sam is brilliant. He'll go down as I think one the kind of the iconic business leaders of this generation. He realizes that this is an Amazon slash Netflix play and that is. It is very difficult for open for any AI to establish technological differentiation because AI just crawls it. When you ask Deep Seek what LLM it was for the first 10 days it said I'm OpenAI. So these things reverse engineer each other. So this is a capital war around getting the best talent, striking the best deals, making acquisitions and tuck inside. And now he's in an altitude where he doesn't need to spend billions, he needs to spend tens of billions. And the way he'll be able to do that is by going public and getting a 400, $500 billion valuation. So it does make sense for him. It's got huge sex appeal, global appeal. It's the fastest, I think zero to $10 billion run rate. What is it? I think it's a $5 billion run rate right now.

[Kara Swisher]

Five, six, something like that.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but it'll get.

[Kara Swisher]

It'll so used to.

[Scott Galloway]

It'll have a $10 billion run rate pretty soon. It'll go. He needs to basically this is a capital war. He's going to outspend everybody. And there are few companies that can't find enough capital in the private markets. This is probably one of them. He's going to go out and raise a shit ton of money.

[Kara Swisher]

They have hired a very adept executive. The former CEO, former I think Meta person or Googler, who is the former CEO of Instacart, who's going to really run, run. It's the Sheryl Sandberg moment here in that regard to run the companies, a lot of the business parts of it. So they really need to run fast and run hard. And I think that most people feel meta is their biggest. The open source meta is their biggest competitor. And Mark has no guardrails of anything. So we'll see what happens. Anyway, it has to happen. It has to happen. This is gonna head that way. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Scott, we're gonna do some wins and fails. I think I shall go first this week. I recommend there's so many different. There's so many great. Like, you know how TV's gotten great. There's a lot of great journalism going on. I have to say I've been. There's some. Several stories I've read recently that, that are just so good, interesting and fascinating to read. The one that I really was struck me this week was Nick Kristof's latest column in the New York Times. It's a long one. It sheds lies on internal emails from pornhub that were made public because of a filing error going back to 2020. They show employees laughing about what's on their site and reveal how the company handles child pornography. The inability of sites like pornhub to get rid of csam. Sam, it's called child pornography and is horrifying. And the fact that they're so casual about it and you see these emails laughing about it with the pain it happens to these people is just astonishing. These people should be sued back into the dark ages for what they're doing here. It's gross and it's bad for young men, as you write about a lot and I agree with you. But the fact that they think it's funny about child pornography and the extent of it is so enormous and we can talk about the audience for this and that's another issue. But the fact that these companies facilitate it makes them. I mean, there's a sickness at the deep heart of humanity on this issue. But this company deserves to be sued out of existence from just this. And again, not a lot. I don't like porn. I think it's bad for us. I think the digitization of it has made it even worse. But the fact that they can't control this, and they think it's a joke is repulsive. So that's a huge fail for Wynn. There's a lot to choose from, including New York will now require schools statewide to ban smartphones. School hours. That's great. But I was thrilled to see Cecily Strong return to SNL this weekend to reprise her role as Judge Jeanine Pirro after Trump named Pirro the interim U.S. attorney in D.C. that's another incompetent hire, by the way. But she did the whole. Colin Jost also came back. He came back as Pete Hegseth, and she spits drinks at him. And it was so funny. And I love Cecily Strong and with. Just delighted to see her there. And I'm glad they got her to do that. She does the best Jeanine Pirro. But from a fail point of view, Jeanine Pirro is an incompetent person to do this job. Never just incompetent. Beyond incompetent for this job. Although the guy she replaced was venal and evil kind of type personality, where he was defending J6 people and had all these crazy schemes and everything. So I guess she's better than him, but that doesn't mean she's any good. And it's such an irresponsible appointment. Your thoughts here? Go for it.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay, so my feel I referenced before this Qatar luxury suite. Basically, the privatization of the White House at 40,000ft. That's not a kickback, it's government capture. And meanwhile, Qatar has funneled over 1.8 billion to Hamas since 2012. They host Hamas's political leadership in luxury Doha compounds and serves as the terrorist group's primary diplomatic shield. The president positions himself as Israel's greatest defender. At the same time, he's accepting lavish gifts from a country that bankrolls the organization that murdered 1200 Jews. It's like you're fucking twins and then trying to convince each of them that you're monogamous with them. I mean, it's just so. The cognitive dissonance here is stifling. And Qatar's influence doesn't stop at the White House. They've poured, get this, 4.7 billion into American universities since 2001. That's more than any other foreign government. You know, this is such a weird relationship. While they host our largest military base in the region, they also maintain cozy relationships with Iran and Hamas. And meanwhile, America's leverage in the Middle east deteriorates as our president becomes essentially an employee of Qatar Airways with nuclear codes. And our elite universities become intellectual laundromats. For authoritarian anti semitic propaganda. So this is not just corruption, it's the purchase of American influence from the Oval Office to our universities, training our next generation of presidents. And when you think about what's the point here? We want our government. The founding fathers wanted checks and balances, not deposits and withdrawals from foreign powers. So this is a yet again and I'm at a point where it's pretty easy and I think the other side loves it, how outraged we are. I think a Democrat needs to to sponsor and make very public legislation that says the government of Qatar is engaging in grift or corruption or foreign bribery. You're not supposed to accept gifts over $400 as a public official and say that again in three years and nine months. We're going to reevaluate our relationship with you based on. We're going to do X, Y and Z in exactly three years and nine months. We need to see stop. There's no stopping the Trump administration. He's weaponized the doj. He has neutered basically all checks and balances here. My attitude is go after the foreign governments and some of the lower level people who are, who are enabling this.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, I told you Qatar tried to buy the, buy our all things D code con like they wanted to give us $10 million each, all this stuff. I was sort of astounded. This was more than 15 years ago where they wanted us to bring our conference there to Qatar. And Walt was like, you know, I'm a Jew and you back home. I was like. He was like, no, it was just an astonishing offer and it was so massive. We were sort of shocked. Largely they wanted the technology they're sort of trying to buy was the influencer to look good. Right. We were sort of clean washing them in some way by going there and there's a lot of, by the way, there's a lot of events that go there now and do that. But I remember Walt was like no fucking way. Like. And it was an enormous sum of money, you know, at the time, $10 million sticks in my head. But we were sort of shocked by it and astonished and of course said no immediately. But I agree with you, this is just beyond. I mean the Nazis did this during right ahead of World War II. Like tried to like buy influence through their various agents. The same thing, you know, very much trying to influence U.S. policy. But this is, I don't even know what this is. This is even. What's the goal here? Here? Precisely. That's the thing is what's their actual goal.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm still focused on the fact you don't know what religion I am.

[Kara Swisher]

I don't. What are you? You're Jewish. You're Jewish. You're partially Jewish. You're half Jewish.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I'm whole Jewish. My mother was Jewish, and I'm an atheist, but I'm a raging Zionist. I just think it's hilarious when people in the comments section call me a Zionist as if it's an insult. I'm a proud Zionist.

[Kara Swisher]

So wait, your mother is Jewish? What is your father?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, my father's Presbyterian. My mother. My mother was a Jew, a maiden named Levine. So I identify with Judaism. I just don't believe I have an invisible friend.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, okay. It was a nice picture of her you put up for Mother's Day, by the way.

[Scott Galloway]

Wasn't that nice?

[Kara Swisher]

That was sweet.

[Scott Galloway]

I got so many comments back.

[Kara Swisher]

That was lovely. I have to say I was touched by that.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I meant to ask you, happy Mother's Day. What did you do?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, it was Amanda's birthday also. We did a picnic. I took my mom out with kids for breakfast.

[Scott Galloway]

Does anyone get more flowers? How does this whole lesbian thing happen?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My kids call me.

[Scott Galloway]

Who gets breakfast in bed first?

[Kara Swisher]

No.

[Scott Galloway]

How does this all work when it's like there's so many. I have so many questions about lesbian relationships. When there's a really difficult parking spot, who parks the car?

[Kara Swisher]

I do.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm a really good Parker, I would say.

[Scott Galloway]

What'd you do for Mother's Day? That's.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. Happy Mother's Day to you, too. And to your wife. Not to you at all in any way.

[Scott Galloway]

What did you do for Mother's Day?

[Kara Swisher]

I used to have breakfast with my mom. I took the kids and Amanda rested at home. And then we had a lovely picnic for her birthday. And I bought her a lemon tree, a Meyer lemon tree as a gift for Mother's Day and her birthday because she loves the Meyer lemons in my house in San Francisco. So we're going to try to grow one here and a our house.

[Scott Galloway]

This is so clearly a new relationship. This is so clearly thoughtful, well planned out gift. I'm literally, at this point, I'm like.

[Kara Swisher]

A plate that had lemons on it and then lemon things and then a beautiful lemon colored. A pitcher. That's beautiful. It was a lemon situation, as in what life gives you.

[Scott Galloway]

That's a new relationship. This is where you're headed. My wife sends me a picture of a watch she wants and I'M like, here's the centuries card number. That's where we are.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I got our lemon tree to grow for our life. I love lemons. I love lemons.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, when life gives you lemons, eat mushroom chocolates. That's my saying.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, what's your win?

[Scott Galloway]

My win is I am really excited. I make a lot of jokes about the Church, but I am excited about an American Pope. I think that the Pope is sort of a standard bearer for morality. I think this guy is up to the task. Unlike our elected leaders, he seems to actually understand technology. In a strange way, I'm happy for Villanova. I can't tell you how many.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I hate the Villanova people. From being a Georgetown person, I can't.

[Scott Galloway]

Like them, but I have a guy I've become friendly with who's pretty involved in Villanova and he can't stop sending out message like memes showing all the universities in America, how many popes? Zero. Villanova one.

[Kara Swisher]

He's just, he's just so aggressive.

[Scott Galloway]

The Villanovans, he's so, so excited.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah, we played them in basketball. We were supposed to hate Villanova, as I recall.

[Scott Galloway]

But I think America needs kind of a. I don't know, a rejuvenation, a EpiPen, you know, Narcon of values. And I think we're more inclined to take an American Pope or listen to an American Pope.

[Kara Swisher]

Wanna hear the weirdest thing? I thought about going back to church after I had him. I thought about it. I'm still not going. Probably because so many. So much corruption in the man thing.

[Scott Galloway]

I think we need, as a raging atheist. I also believe we need more religious institutions. I've come to believe when I was younger, I was one of those snobs who considered myself a scientist and really was disparaging about religion. And as I've gotten older, other than the extreme, batshit crazy part of every religion, I generally find that 90 plus percent of it gives people a lot of comfort. And especially, I think young people also need more places. Place to be in the agency of something bigger than themselves and meet potential friends, mentors and mates. I'm actually have come full circle. I think religious institutions are really important in America.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm an agnostic, not an atheist.

[Scott Galloway]

That just means you're a closeted atheist.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I'm not. I'm not either. I have. I.

[Scott Galloway]

That's like when dudes say they're bi. Ooh, I'm gonna hear it on that one. I'm gonna hear it on that one.

[Kara Swisher]

I'VE been walking by a lot of churches. I've been walking by and I wanna go in and I don't know what that is. I honestly, apparently you just wanna get.

[Scott Galloway]

Away from your kids. It's called having little kids at home.

[Kara Swisher]

Peace.

[Scott Galloway]

I almost went to church when we had little kids.

[Kara Swisher]

I was like, I was thinking, I want some peace. I know it sounds crazy, but I was, I don't know, let's go to church tonight. That's you and I. Okay.

[Scott Galloway]

No, I find peace at Sam Vicente Bungalows talking to some people.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I like the peace.

[Scott Galloway]

Talking to some 25 year old AD executive whose parents are putting her through New York.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot submit a question for the show or call 8554. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, this week on with Kara Swisher, I spoke with CNN's Chief International Anchor Christian Avanpour. Let's listen to a clip. I've covered almost all America's major wars since 1990, and I've probably got a lot more war experience than J.D. vance and Pete Hegseth despite their military deployments. And I'm much older than them.

[Scott Galloway]

And I the way I see it.

[Kara Swisher]

Is we Europeans are not pathetic freeloaders.

[Scott Galloway]

We have come to America's aid time.

[Kara Swisher]

And time again in the last 35 years. So it was a good interview. She's terrific.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, I'm curious though, how has your I asked this to learn not to make a statement. How has Europe come to America's aid?

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, she was, it goes on. She talks about the various, you know, when we moved into Afghanistan, about different things that they have done to be supportive of us. She wasn't saying America hasn't helped Europe. That was not what she was also saying. She thinks that they and putting out the idea that they don't do anything is ridiculous. Like that it's that she was saying that the alliance is so important and that the narrative they're putting about freeloaders was not true. And I think, and she made a larger case, but she was in no way saying America's aid to Europe wasn't critical too. So she was being more complex.

[Scott Galloway]

I've been on Christiana's show. I think she's, I also like her because she's one of those journalists that tries to set you up for success and she lets you speak. I find so many journalists who, they.

[Kara Swisher]

Are too sensitive is the word you're looking for.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, actually it's not, but thank you. Lemon tree. Weirdo.

[Kara Swisher]

Catholic lemon tree.

[Scott Galloway]

What I was thinking was actually generous. And that is I find there's some times when I go on a show, they're there to try and corner you or get you to say something provocative because they want a TikTok moment. And I'm guilty of this too. A lot of times I ask questions trying to show how smart I am as opposed to get to an answer. And then there's journalists who will let you just speak and want you to get your views out there, whether they personally agree with them or not. They're generous. They want to set you up for success. And I find that she's one of those people.

[Kara Swisher]

She is. I really, really adore her. We've become good friends and I really like. She's just. It was a great talk. Anyway, please listen to it. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott read us out.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silvero and Dan Shalon. Nishat Kuro As Vox Media's executive producer Vodcast, make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazinenwhitemag.com podcast. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. We have a new Pope.

[Kara Swisher]

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