WHCD Shooting Aftermath, Musk and Altman Face-Off, Spirit Airlines Bailout

Summary

Pivot Podcast Episode Summary

Date: April 28, 2026
Hosts: Kara Swisher & Scott Galloway
Episode Theme: With great power comes great scrutiny — Kara and Scott dissect the aftermath of the White House Correspondents’ Dinner shooting, tech’s high-stakes legal showdowns (Musk v. Altman, OpenAI), and the controversial proposed bailout of Spirit Airlines, all while reflecting on the broader state of America’s institutions and culture.

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Overview

This episode delves into the chaos surrounding the White House Correspondents’ Dinner (WHCD) shooting, the brewing legal and ethical tech drama between Elon Musk and Sam Altman/OpenAI, and a contentious government intervention proposal (Spirit Airlines bailout). The hosts critique the media’s response to crisis, analyze motives and impacts of key players, and highlight longer-term socio-economic shifts, from layoffs in big tech to the state of public aid programs.

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Segment Breakdown

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1. White House Correspondents’ Dinner Shooting Aftermath

[03:59–20:44]

Key Points:

• Shooting Details:

  • Cole Thomas Allen, 31, arrested after exchanging fire at the WHCD venue, reportedly targeting President Trump and administration officials (but not all, as per his writings), heavy security breach exposed, one officer injured.
  • Kara, drawing from personal experience at the venue: "You could have gotten all the way to the ballroom... so little security." (13:05)
  • Media's parallel to everyday American experiences with gun violence—notably, "school kids…without the protection of Secret Service." (04:19)

• Media Critique:

  • Kara lambasts much of the press for being performative, self-centered, “influencer”-like, and failing basic reportage standards during the event:

    "I was repulsed...the press could do a better job...just report the facts." (19:48)

  • Praises for Wolf Blitzer, Sarah Sidner, and Stephanie Ruhle for calm fact-based reporting, as opposed to attention-seeking coverage:

    “If you’re going to do this, point it outwards so we can see what’s happened.” (10:15)

• Political & Security Implications:

  • Scott reflects on US "brand erosion" due to normalization of violence and poor internal control:

    “America comes across as a rogue nation...is chaotic and has no control internally.” (05:36)

  • Both decry the “instant politicization” of the event, especially President Trump using the incident to push for his planned $400M White House ballroom:

    “He argued...the shooting never would have happened [in a] military top secret ballroom...” (13:13)

  • Both left and right sowing conspiracy theories immediately after:

    "Conspiracy theories...from the left and the right claiming the shooting was staged..." (14:00)

• Gun Culture & Security:

  • Scott notes easy access to firearms and the limitations of US security apparatus, even at "top level" events.
  • Bemoans US normalization of shooter drills for children:

    "I just don’t think any 11 year old should have to engage in a shooter drill. I just—something’s wrong." (12:02)

Memorable Quotes:

• Scott: "I think in 30 years, we're gonna look back on this era and we're gonna be just horrified at how we put cyanide in our drinking water, called social media, and kept drinking it..." (17:18)
• Kara: "The enemy is us. No, I agree with you. It feels very McCarthy era...the constant nonstop pitching." (18:21)
• Kara: "I love the media, and I was repulsed." (20:19)

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2. Musk vs. Altman & OpenAI Court Battle

[23:53–37:02]

Key Points:

• Case Summary:

  • Elon Musk is suing OpenAI and Microsoft for over $150B in damages, seeking Sam Altman’s removal as CEO, alleging OpenAI abandoned its nonprofit mission.
  • Legal analyst Ellie Honig previews the high-profile trial:

    "How will Altman and Musk fare on cross exam?...They're gonna get cross examined by aggressive litigators..." (24:21)

• Settlement Prospects & Motives:

  • Kara: Surprised the case hasn't settled (“why neither of them did...”). (28:52)
  • Scott skeptical Musk stands to “win” — expects a likely last-minute settlement since discovery puts Musk in legal jeopardy:

    “You realize you can’t perjure yourself. This isn’t Twitter. You can’t lie.” (28:13)

  • Both agree Musk is likely motivated by regret for missing out on OpenAI’s success, more than altruistic concern for AI safety.

• Reputational Stakes:

  • Both discuss diminished reputations:

    Kara: "Altman doesn't have a great reputation...I think they all know Elon Musk is a giant asshole." (30:50) Scott: "The secret weapon here...will be Nadella... He comes across as very measured." (30:58)

• Anthropic & Tech Investment:

  • Kara highlights Google’s major investment in OpenAI rival Anthropic ($40B), and secondary market valuations ($1T for Anthropic, reportedly higher than OpenAI). (36:17–36:39)

• AI Ethics & Regulation:

  • Conversation on platform liability—Sam Altman’s apology for missing shooter signals in ChatGPT, calls for actual regulation, not just apologies:

    Scott: "We shouldn't need their apologies and their safeguards. There should be regulations." (35:00)

Memorable Quotes:

• Kara: “He wants everything. Yeah, he's this greedy fuck." (32:13)
• Scott: "[AI] is corporate ozempic. It's turned off the signal that in order to grow, you need more calories. In this case, calories means employees." (37:53)

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3. Tech Layoffs and the Future of Work

[37:02–45:28]

Key Points:

• Meta planning to lay off 10%, Microsoft offering buyouts to senior staff—reflects tech’s broader retrenchment after pandemic over-hiring.
• AI displacing labor: Scott relays Andrew Yang’s warnings—“capital replacing labor, capital displacing labor.”
• Layoffs mostly return firms to pre-pandemic scales, but concern for ripple effects into rest of economy, especially new graduates.
• Scott: even with disruption, history shows majority adapt; Kara: youth are aware, recalibrating for future-proof (mechanical, manual) careers.

Memorable Quotes:

• Scott: “The easiest people to fire are the people you haven’t hired yet.” (38:44)
• Kara: “Where is the—where’s employment going? But young people have to think really hard now about that and figure it out.” (41:36)

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4. DOJ Probe of Powell & Spirit Airlines Bailout

[48:47–54:20]

Key Points:

• DOJ ends criminal probe into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell; Trump’s nominee Kevin Warsh likely to be confirmed.
• Kara and Scott question Warsh’s credibility—his refusal to confirm Biden’s 2020 win.
• Spirit Airlines facing bankruptcy; Trump administration proposing a $500M bailout in exchange for up to 90% government ownership.
• Bipartisan backlash—Scott: “This is fucking insane. Insane...When you start bailing out companies that aren’t sustainable, all you do is invite taxpayers to bail out more.” (52:02)
• Bankruptcy should remain a tool to let companies restructure—government intervention seen as cronyism.

Memorable Quotes:

• Scott: "Bankruptcy is a feature, not a bug...The market changes and the company no longer can support the assets and obligations...it declares bankruptcy…They get to repackage and re-emerge to fight another day.” (52:08)

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5. Predictive Markets, Insider Trading & Systemic Corruption

[55:02–59:31]

Key Points:

• US Army soldier charged for making $400K betting on Venezuela regime change using insider knowledge.
• Kara and Scott call for aggressive crackdown on insider trading—not just small fish, but politicians and officials, especially with new “prediction market” platforms.
• Discussion on the need for platform compliance, but ultimate responsibility falls to regulators and law enforcement.

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6. Wins and Fails

[61:33–72:59]

Kara's Win & Fail:

• Win: Bette Midler, for creative social media activism and clever protest art.
• Fail: The media’s narcissistic coverage of the WHCD shooting; loss of standards and public trust.

Scott's Win & Fail:

• Win: Despite violence saturating media, US homicide and drug overdose deaths are at historic lows (2025-26 data); the country is objectively safer.
• Fail: Catastrophic increase in HIV diagnoses in Zambia following US cuts to PEPFAR, reflecting poorly on American values and undermining soft power.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott: "If you actually look at the data on a lot of levels, America has never been safer or less violent..." (66:44)
• Scott: "Our budgets reflect our values. And the fact that we decided to cut this budget...for God's sakes, 4 million people." (70:49)

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Scott on US gun culture:

  "My first thoughts are somewhat superficial in that...the brand that is the US is just eroding around the world." (05:36)

• Kara on the WHCD media:

  "What is happening, what's going on?...There was one reporter pointing the camera towards herself...if you're going to do this, point it outwards so we can see what's happened." (10:15)

• Kara on the ballroom politics:

  "He argued that if the event had been held in a...top secret ballroom, whatever that is, the shooting never would have happened." (13:13)

• Scott on OpenAI lawsuit:

  "As the commentator said, these guys aren't used to a cross examination...and you can't lie. And this is the evidence they're gonna bring up. And he's gonna go settle this." (28:13)

• Kara on media responsibility:

  "I love the media, and I was repulsed." (20:19)

• Scott on economic trends:

  "If you actually look at the data on a lot of levels, America has never been safer or less violent..." (66:44)

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Conclusion

This episode weaves the immediate chaos and symbolism of the WHCD shooting into broader social criticism—of media, governance, and culture—before turning to monumental lawsuits in tech and government overreach in bailouts. Kara and Scott’s interplay—their candor, sharp asides, and data-driven observations—underscore a unifying theme: America’s vaunted systems, from free press to capital markets, are at a crossroads, in need of renewed rigor and reflection.

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For full context and more sharp, unvarnished takes, listen to the complete episode of Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media.

Transcript

[Scott Galloway]

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[Kara Swisher]

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[Scott Galloway]

support for the show comes from Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman, a New York Times critics pick. It's a perfect salesman, a triumph, says the New York Times. Ben Brantley says Miller's classic has never before stung quite so acutely or so beautifully. A haunting dream of a domestic quartet and Nathan Lane, Laurie Metcalf, Christopher Abbott and Ben Ehlers. New York magazine says Joe Montello's perfectly calibrated Death of a Salesman lands like a haymaker to the temple. Now on Broadway.

[Kara Swisher]

I would say you are the wind beneath my wings, but really, you're not. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher with my annual cold.

[Scott Galloway]

It seems to be semiannual. See the. It's kids.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, it is. But I haven't gotten sick for a while, actually. Yeah, it's been a while. Very long while. You remember I got sick all the time when they were babies?

[Scott Galloway]

I do remember that.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

So this is going to sound very Maha, but I think I've been sick two or three times as an adult. I'm convinced it's because I never went to the doctor and never had antibiotics as a kid.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, interesting. Really?

[Scott Galloway]

I get sick on the dime every 10 years.

[Kara Swisher]

Really? Of what?

[Scott Galloway]

I get sick. I don't know, cough or something. But no, my point is I. I like. I couldn't tell you the last time I was sick.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I'm trying To think you were. I don't know, maybe it was just a hungover. I don't know.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, yeah, that's. No, that's weekly.

[Kara Swisher]

You had Covid and I never did.

[Scott Galloway]

I did have Covid, but I wouldn't have known I had it.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, I never had Covid yet.

[Scott Galloway]

That's wild.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. Yeah. You couldn't go to Germany. Do you remember?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, yeah. Because I tested. But the good news was I realized I tested positively. Afternoon, I spoke to a jam packed room of people from Brazil at a speeding gig. So I definitely gave the. I definitely gave the majority of Sao Paulo Covid.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, that's nice of you. That's so kind of you. Anyway. Well, you'll have to endure. You'll have to talk more. What a surprise. That won't be any different.

[Scott Galloway]

I feel ashamed. That's passive aggressive. 70. 30.

[Kara Swisher]

70.

[Scott Galloway]

30. You brought that up. I do 70% of the words. You do 30.

[Kara Swisher]

That is actually true.

[Scott Galloway]

You're a better interviewer, that's why that's true. And I'm a narcissist who's verbose.

[Kara Swisher]

Anyway. Did you have a good weekend? I was around Washington during this White House correspondence dinner thing and it all went well. Until it didn't.

[Scott Galloway]

Until it didn't. It was a spectacular weekend. Here. London, when it's nice out, you know, cities. An upside to cities that aren't always sunny is that when the sun comes out, the whole city comes alive. It's like Chicago in the summer. I mean, it is. If you're in LA and it's nice out, no one cares.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Scott Galloway]

But in London, I was, I spent a lot of time in the park with the dogs and the kids and I have, I have my boys this, this weekend.

[Kara Swisher]

What park do you go to?

[Scott Galloway]

Regents. Regents Park.

[Kara Swisher]

Beautiful park.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, it's spectacular.

[Kara Swisher]

Right. Anyway, let's get to the news as we record. Cole Thomas Allen, the 31 year old suspect in the White House correspondent's dinner shooting is set to be arraigned in federal court. He'll be charged with two counts of using a firearm and one count of assault on a federal official using a dangerous weapon. U.S. attorney for D.C. jeanine Pirro says more charges are expected. Allen was arrested Saturday night after running through security checkpoint at the Washington Hilton, exchanging fire with law enforcement. President Trump and top officials were rushed out of the room while journalists and other attendees took cover under the tables. Except one guy who kept eating his salad. The motive is still being determined though. Allen appeared to be targeting Trump and the administration officials but not Kash Patel for some reason, according to his writings. He also mentioned lax security and that he expected more security there. He was a guest at the hotel and he walked very close to the ballroom. I have been there and various people are debating it, but he was very close. He's right before the stairs that you go down into the ballroom. Having been there, we'll get to Trump and the ballroom stuff. But what was your initial reaction and what do you make of the coverage? Some people did a great job. And it's worth noting, by the way, the president, cabinet officials and journalists experienced Saturday night as something that many Americans face every day, especially school kids, though without the protection of the Secret Service. So this was the finest protection in the land, and it didn't really work as well as it should have, although nobody got hurt except for one officer who was shot. But we'll see what happened there. Your first thoughts?

[Scott Galloway]

Well, my first thoughts are somewhat superficial in that is the brand that is the US Is just eroding around the world. Putin isn't chased out by a gunman of a hall that's supposed to be a social gathering. America comes across as a rogue nation that is chaotic and has no control internally and. But immediately, I don't think it's fair to say that the president is so incendiary that this is his fault. Nor do I think it's fair to say that the Democrats being critical of the president raises escalation of violence. I think at the end of the day, you have a large cohort of usually young men who have a mental breakdown or a psychotic break, and then they have access to firearms, and they typically go after, in what they believe will be a restoration of social capital and a heroic act of violence, they go after very, very famous people. And the thing about Trump, and I'm not saying his fault, but it is just a fact. He's in everyone's fucking face and in their brain all goddamn day, over and over and over. He's like the biggest psychological tax cut in history would be if we elected a technocrat who maybe checked in once a month. Yeah, I agree, but wasn't in your face every fucking day and dominating the table conversation at dinner. And so the most famous people will always, unfortunately, be targets. That mental illness will manifest in more shootings as long as people have access this type of access to guns. If he had tried to fly, he wouldn't have been able to do it. But you can cross state lines on a train with firearms. My first, and I'll let you Go. Also my first reaction is when I heard about this guy, a Caltech grad who was teacher of the year.

[Kara Swisher]

He's a very good writer, by the

[Scott Galloway]

way, and he's very eloquent. You read his manifesto and it's like, Jesus. I don't agree with it, but the guy is. It's just such a tragedy. His life is ruined and to see an event, I think the event is fucking stupid. I was invited last year. I have no desire as part of what I'll call the fringe alternative media show up and have basically a hijacker lecture me about air safety. I do not understand how people in the media go to a celebration in ties to hear a man say you're fake news and you're. I have no idea why anyone would show kudos to the New York Times who does not go.

[Kara Swisher]

There were Times reporters there covering the President in the pool, which seems perfectly appropriate to travel with him wherever he goes. But I have to say I just. I covered it as back as I've noticed. You said I covered it back in the Truman administration. I mean the Roosevelt administration. Tr.

[Scott Galloway]

I got that wrong. I'm sorry. It was Lincoln. Yeah, that's right. I was looking for a prime. I couldn't remember FDR.

[Kara Swisher]

So I hated it when I covered it 20 some years ago. I thought it was such a suck up between public officials and the media. I don't like the gridiron dinner. I don't like any of. I hated covering them. And even then it seemed like. So it's one of the reasons I left Washington, sort of the cozy relationship. And now he was gonna come and insult them. First of all, everyone in that room in his cabinet has taken shots at the press in a really repulsive way. And even though other presidents have been hostile to press, this is explicit attacks. And so he was ready to. And even Carolyn Levitt said it. He's some shots will be fired. That's the last thing she said. Like minutes before this happened to a media person and he was gonna attack everyone. And I was think I was talking to a few people there. I'm like, what are you gonna do if he starts directly attacking you or your company? You're gonna get up and walk in a really gross and crass way, which he was planning to do, I believe. And then of course, he used the opportunity for propaganda. Every single one of his lackeys messaged the same thing about the ballroom. We'll get to that in a second. And it just is this sort of. And I thought the Press were especially lap doggy throughout and also performative as influe. Three people stood out as doing their job, which was Wolf Blitzer, who happened to be near the gunman. He just called in from his phone and he said, what happened? That's it. He didn't say, I lost my shoe, which he apparently did. He didn't say, oh, woe is me. He didn't act like it was anything but his job to say, to tell CNN what happened. Same thing with Sarah Seidner. Very calm. Same thing actually with Stephanie Rule. She just gave the facts. Tons of people, both online, especially online and on the air, were like, this is how I feel about this. And I was like, I don't give a fuck what you feel about it. What is happening, what's going on? And a lot of like, there was one reporter who was pointing the camera towards herself, like, I don't know what was happening. Like, I'm under the table. I'm like, good for you. If you're going to do this, point it outwards so we can see what's happened. There was plenty of video, by the way, which was disturbing. But it just was this, like all these media people trying to behave like and get their licks in, like they were influencers. And I just. And then of course, the influencers were too, you know, doing, you know, all manner of nonsense. So I found it very disappointing in the press conference after they let him get away with stuff. The only, you know, at one point, Nora o' Donnell from cbs, which has been particularly obsequious to Trump, got the interview. But Nora did try her best to do like tough question, not tough questions, but pertinent questions. And Trump called her disgrace. So he had just minutes just the day before, talked about unity and then he was calling her a disgrace. And you're just whatever, whatever words he uses for the press. So I thought it was a fail. I thought the whole thing is a fail. But it's. And then there was, I mean, a party I happened to have been invited to, which I didn't go to, obviously, after they kept doing the party. You know, it's just weird.

[Scott Galloway]

But we don't. In a culture of violence. Or again, for me, it all reverse engineers do. We don't have a monopoly on political division. We don't have a monopoly on mentally ill men. We have a monopoly on political division. Mentally ill men with access to just such easy access to firearms and also the Secret Service. There's only so much you can do if you want a president to go out in the public if you want to be able to walk around freely.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the most disappointing thing.

[Scott Galloway]

There are now more private security guards. There was more private security employed in America than there are cops now. And the Secret Service can only do so much. The other thing is this levy is such an enormous tax on us. One of the things I love about my school here in London, you know what they don't have? They do not have shooter drills. Yeah, I just don't think any 11 year old should have to engage in a shooter drill. I just. Something's wrong. Right. And the other tax we're about to all pay is someone who travels a lot. I travel a lot to hotels where there'll be some political event or whatever, or they're hosting the president of Finland. It's going to be another fucking 10 minutes to get in and out of a hotel now. Because part of the security lapse here was this guy figured out a hack, and that is just staying at the hotel, being a guest, you get past the first level of security.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, you could have gotten all the way to the ballroom without that. I have to tell you. It's.

[Scott Galloway]

But didn't he have. Wasn't it easier because he checked into the hotel?

[Kara Swisher]

No. He could bring his gun in. Yes, but he could have hidden a gun easily. There is so little. I don't go to these things anymore because there's so little security. And it's sort of. And then the fact that you have to do security. I mean, although I have to say there was more security at a concert than, you know, than anything else that I've been to. But this should be the top level of security. And then you had the whole press corps hiding under tables. It's just the whole visual is so bad. And then Trump, of course, took advantage of it. In the aftermath of the shooting. He was quick to say the incident underscored the need for his $400 million White House ballroom. He argued that if the event had been held in a military top secret ballroom, whatever that is, the shooting never would have happened. Well, no, the White House has been attacked, but still, it's not just Trump MAGA accounts. And I said administration officials started like acting ag Todd Blanch or tweeting about the ballroom instantly. Of course, the worst part about it were these conspiracy theories floating around from the left and the right claiming the shooting was staged or that they let him in so that they could create a situation so that they can pitch the ballroom or that it wasn't. They had him in a Holding room, you know, that was insane.

[Scott Galloway]

Just a quick comment. Cause I'm asking this question and I'm open to learning here because I purposely try to avoid media. This again, the notion that, okay, this is the world we live in, both sides will try and make political hay of it. That in fact one use of the ballroom might be an inability to have more secure events like this or events like this in more security. To me, distinctive immediate politicization of a violent event or near violent event was wrong. But that argument to me seems reasonable. Your thoughts?

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, yes. But not the way he did it. And he's just trying to jam it through. He just tore down the house without any. He is supposed to consult with Congress.

[Scott Galloway]

Right.

[Kara Swisher]

He just wanted to jam it through. There's also a whole facility under there that nobody knows anything about. Probably should they? Except for the right people, but whose job it is to protect the White House. There's no question they need a ballroom at the White House. I've gone there a million times and it's really underwhelming as a facility. That said, this event couldn't have fit in that it's too small, even though the ballroom is ridiculously large. So the fact that he took the opportunity for something that could have never taken place. There was one thing, but I don't equivalent with an idea of a bigger gathering room at the White House. It makes sense for lots of reasons, for King Charles, et cetera, et cetera, bringing more people in, having more events there. Although that's a thing in and of itself. If you've ever tried to get in and out of the White House, that takes a three years sometimes. But it's not linked. Why link it suddenly here? And it just seemed like, oh, let's use any opportunity of a disaster or tragedy to push for something that is unreasonable to have a ballroom. It's unreasonable how he did it and then use this as an excuse to do so. I think it just makes us look just lots of people don't want the ballroom. Most people think it's a good idea. If he had done it in the way where he's consulting architects, where he's consulting Congress and everything else. Instead he's now going to try to shove it through and then the instant something tragic happens, MAGA accounts and these administration officials. Every opportunity is an opportunity for press in order to either shine up himself as a hero of some sort or to get what he wants. And that to me is not how America works. I'm sorry, I agree with you. It's Reasonable to think we should have a boy. But they could only hold a certain amount of things in this ballroom, even at its gargantuan size.

[Scott Galloway]

I just thought, you just walk away. You always want to walk away with, this was right, this was wrong. This is whose fault? I just looked at this and just said, this is bad.

[Kara Swisher]

You're right.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't think it illuminates anything about Democrats or Republicans or the president. I think what it illuminates is our country is in a terrible spit and. Okay, let me blame someone. I just. I think in 30 years, we're gonna look back on this era and we're gonna be just horrified at how we put cyanide in our drinking water, called social media, and kept drinking it, and just. It makes everyone. More Americans are fearful of their neighbors than Russian soldiers pouring over the border in Ukraine. They're convinced the enemy is the guy with the wrong political sign across the street from him or her. And every day, you're taught to believe in what is a page out of the fascist handbook, which is incredibly, unfortunately profitable. You're taught to believe that it's the enemy within. It's not climate change, it's not income inequality, it's not a fascist government or someone trying to invade Europe. It's not the ccp. The enemy is within is us.

[Kara Swisher]

The enemy is us. No, I agree with you. It feels very McCarthy era. And you're right. The constant nonstop pitching. I think the media. Trump has been doing propaganda for a decade now. It's a decade in our brains, and the media still hasn't figured out how to cover him. They should get back to the important things. Iran, affordability, gas prices. I do think the Epstein files is an important story. I don't think it's the most important story, but it talks. It's about corruption. About corruption, about getting kids safe in schools. If this is an opportunity to talk about kids, if they suddenly feel nervous because they had to toss under the. To understand what it's like for kids, fine. Like, I don't care. I just think no one behaved in any way that was. Any way. That is American to me.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me just have one side note, because obviously I've been getting all these tiktoks. I will say this. There was a contrast. Just going to this Stephen Miller. I do not like the guy.

[Kara Swisher]

Neither do I. He did walk out his wife in a hearing.

[Scott Galloway]

He did walk out his wife. Did you see what the other men did?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, they ran. They ran. I mean, and Cheryl Hines was chasing rfp.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. I mean, God, I feel petty even saying this, but at least Stephen Miller's instincts were the correct ones.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, he did.

[Scott Galloway]

He had his hands on his wife and was escorting his wife out. Anyway, there's no way not to come away from this and just feel a little bit shittier. I don't.

[Kara Swisher]

I would agree. I think that's exactly the reaction to have. I just. I would like the press. I don't. Trump is Trump. He's gonna behave anyway the same way every single time, and then he'll switch right back to nasty. And let me say, the press could do a better job. And I do give kudos to people who just were reporting the facts. And I agree it's a news story, but seriously, I don't really. I know a lot of people are traumatized, but I don't want to know how you feel. I want you to tell me what's happening as a news organization. That's all.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. Report.

[Kara Swisher]

And I don't want to know what you think of unity. I don't know what. I don't want to hear about it. I just want you to tell me what's going on, who this guy is, and do the reporting. Anyway, I love the media, and I was repulsed. Okay, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Elon Musk and Sam Altman head to court. Big story. Actually,

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[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back with more news. Elon Musk and Sam Altman are headed to court this week over OpenAI's conversion to a for profit entity. Musk is asking for over $150 billion in damages from OpenAI and Microsoft and for Altman to be removed from the company's board and as CEO. I think jury selection is taking place as we tape on Monday and opening arguments are expected on Tuesday. Starting off a several week long trial. Musk, Altman and Satya Nadella as well as other big tech figures are expected to testify. We got a clip from actually CNN Legal Senior Legal Analyst Ellie Honig who I've interviewed many times for. I think he's really smart on what's to come. I thought he would have an interesting take.

[Ellie Honig]

The thing about trial is it all comes out because both sides by now have engaged in discovery, meaning they have one another's internal emails, texts, corporate communications. Three things I'm watching for. First of all, what were Altman and Musk and their principals saying about AI? Do they view it as an existential threat or something else? Second of all, what do the employees think of the bosses? What are the people who work in these companies really saying to one another about Sam Altman and Elon Musk? What are they saying about Kara Swisher? I'll bet you're in there, Kara. I'll bet your name pops up in this trial. And then third of all, how will Altman and Musk fare on on cross exam? Cause these are two guys moguls used to being told, yes, sir, yes, sir. Now they're gonna get cross examined by aggressive litigators who are looking to undermine them, discredit them, maybe even embarrass them. How's that gonna go? This'll be fascinating. Check it out.

[Kara Swisher]

I thought that was pretty smart. I mean, the technical aspects of this are really interesting. What I don't understand is why this was going to trial, why they didn't settle. The only thing I can think of is that. I mean, to me, OpenAI should have somehow settled with him. But there's no plus for Musk to settle, though most odds are that he is going to lose. It's a really complex trial. It's a jury trial, but the jurors cannot decide on remedies. The judge only can. The judge allowed certain things to go forward that most people think are ridiculous. Most of the odds are Musk will not win. But I can't believe they didn't settle. Because the only thing is Musk loves this. He's already a villain. And when you. You start wrestling with a pig, the pig likes it and you get filthy. And so I don't think it's good for OpenAI at all.

[Scott Galloway]

It's interesting. I had. And again, you might be right here. I might be wrong. My initial reaction was that Musk has more to lose and that he'll settle right as the trial's beginning or right after it starts. Because. Okay, tell me why Musk isn't doing this. Because he's okay. So the basic premise is this is supposed to be a nonprofit, it focusing on protecting the public from AI. Okay. He then, my understanding is wanted to buy it or he wanted to control It.

[Kara Swisher]

He wanted to control it. Yes. And he threw a fit and then walked out. He did walk out.

[Scott Galloway]

And then when Altman said, no, you don't get to control it, he said, then I'm taking my ball and I'm leaving. And he signed a ton of documents saying, I no longer have ownership in this. And then when it converted to become the leading AI platform in the world, he went fucking crazy.

[Kara Swisher]

And he has his own company.

[Scott Galloway]

But here's a guy who's very concerned with ensuring there's an entity policing AI safety and regulation, but he starts his own for profit AI.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, exactly.

[Scott Galloway]

As the commentator very deftly said, these guys aren't used to a cross examination with emails that says, I'm not impressed with you. You are full of shit. You wanted to control this. When you couldn't control it, you threw a fit. You have signed papers that are legally enforceable with no ownership.

[Kara Swisher]

And now, like the Twitter, when he took over, tried to get out of the Twitter deal.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. This guy, he's angry that he walked away from what ended up being the best. I'm kicking myself because I've had two investments recently that have gone bad and they needed to raise more capital. And one of the things about investing early is you have your pro rata and I wasn't sure whether to invest or not. And on one specifically, I didn't do my pro rata. And then they figured out a way to develop these innovative turbines to power off grid AI centers. And the valuation has gone up 10x. Wow.

[Kara Swisher]

And so you feel like I'm a

[Scott Galloway]

dumbass and now I'm fucking furious.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

But I'm not gonna go back and sue the company. So I think discovery here, I think Musk's lawyers are gonna say, you realize you can't perjure yourself. This isn't Twitter. You can't lie. And when they, he goes, this is the. And they. The day before, in the briefing or the coaching of them, they're gonna say, this is what I would ask you. And you can't lie. And this is the evidence they're gonna bring up. And he's gonna go settle this. Yeah, I think he's playing poker.

[Kara Swisher]

He does settle. Like, by the way, he has settle.

[Scott Galloway]

Remember the Delaware Chancery Court?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

He was like, threatening, threatening, threatening. Okay.

[Kara Swisher]

I think you're very smart here. I think that's a problem. I don't believe none of them settled. You know, I don't. I guess going to court is always like, why couldn't you possibly settle this right? Essentially, which I don't understand why neither of them did on both sides. Right. And it seemed like, I mean, it's always up until the trial where they settle. Right. That's always the point.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, he's trying to slow them down. He's trying to create doubts.

[Kara Swisher]

That's the other thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Hurt their fundraising capabilities, slow them down, hurt their ipo. Musk, ideally, I believe if he was, and he's very smart, would be trying to delay the case, to create. To maintain this cloud.

[Kara Swisher]

I think he has done that.

[Scott Galloway]

And OpenAI wants to go to court and say, you signed papers legally forfeiting your ownership and governance here. You're out.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. One of the things that's interesting about it is that obviously he created his own companies and aren't doing as well, is that he. When both of them started talking about this back in the day, they were worried about the strength of Google and Facebook and others. They were maybe in their own self interest. But at the time, it was a real, I would say a genuine worry about where AI was being developed, especially that the government. Government had abrogated its responsibility. So, you know, these two have come a long way. What's interesting, it's also a duel of their reputations. Now, Elon's full on villain now, Right. So it'll be interesting to see how the jury thinks of him. Altman now doesn't have a great reputation. Right. Is he a liar? There's a lot of, you know, after the Ronan Farrow piece and everything else. The thing is, I think most juries haven't really paid attention to the Sam Altman portion of this reputation decline. I think they all know Elon Musk is a giant asshole. So I think that prob. Or, you know, every bit of him jumping up and down and being so partisan and, you know, posting racist stuff all over the. He's doing that more than ever recently. I think he's on his back foot on this because I. As much as they'd like to paint Sam as this oily liar, essentially, I don't think it's sunk in with most people. I don't. I just don't. I don't think they even know who he is kind of thing.

[Scott Galloway]

Not only that, the secret weapon here, I think for. For OpenAI will be Nadella. I think Nadella will reflect really well on OpenAI. He comes across as very measured and I would love to be the defense counsel here. It's like, okay, so you're claiming you're so concerned about protection and safety. What have you Done. Did you go and start you're the wealthiest man in the world. Did you start another entity looking at safety or oh, wait, you started a for profit AI and you're competing against this company. Isn't this nothing but an attempt to slow them down because you're jealous you fucked up and sold your shares? I think this is going to be a very easy narrative for the defense to say the wealthiest man in the world is trying to abuse you, waste your time and get in the way of the capitalism. The small part of capitalism, the small part of the Internet, he doesn't own and he's furious about it. He owns Space, he owns EVs, he owns, you know, a 180 character messaging application, but because he fucked up and sold the best corner of AI, he now wants it back.

[Kara Swisher]

He wants everything. Yeah, he's this greedy fuck. Yeah, it's true. I don't think slamming Altman's gonna work here. And he's tried to trust, he's really tried to. And personally and professionally. But we'll see.

[Scott Galloway]

It'll make them both look bad. There'll be emails that'll come out that'll be like, everyone look bad.

[Kara Swisher]

Everyone looks. It's great for Brand AI again, the only one who looks good, Dario, whom I spent time with this weekend, he's a great.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh yeah. What was your general impression of Dario?

[Kara Swisher]

It was an off the record thing, but he was, I have to say, very funny. Doesn't like any of these people, by the way, but very funny. Very. I'm not going to call him Steve Jobs, but he at least had range to talk about. You know, I reread his essay Machines of Loving Grace, which I hated, the headline of many. It was two years ago and was talking about that. And I have to say he's erudite, like he was quoting from Arcadia and stuff like that. And I think he's a very complex and interesting figure and much more jolly than I give him credit for, in a way. So he's having the time of his life because they're all like shooting each other in the head and he's merrily going along and being the successful one and creating the best technology. So anyway, I really, actually hate to say this because I really enjoyed talking to him. I did. It was fun. He also gives as good as he gets and I like that. He wasn't scared of questions, which a lot of them get all.

[Scott Galloway]

Did you do it? Was it on with Kara Swisher?

[Kara Swisher]

No, not yet, but he's coming on with Kara Swisher and I told him about your interest. Anyway, I really enjoyed it. It was an enjoyable interview, I have to say. By the way, speaking of Sam Altman, he apologized to the community of Tumblr Ridge for failing to alert author authorities about an account of a shooter who killed eight people and whose ChatGPT account was suspended for violent messages. In the letter, Altman reaffirmed a commitment to find ways to prevent similar tragedies in the future. It's always backwards looking, like, oh, sorry, I don't know. I just feel like they can apologize all they want. Why don't they create services that have some level of safety or reporting despite all the free speech stuff? There's some clear, clear, clear worries that people have. If you had someone in your neighborhood who was doing this, you would turn them in. They would. So I don't know what to say.

[Scott Galloway]

We had the school, I was involved in Florida. You know, we had a kid writing or drawing violent, weird images. Next day, FBI was at their house looking for firearms. And so there's got to be. I mean, to Sam's credit, he did what most of these guys don't do. He apologized. And he is claiming to want to put in some sort of safeguards. But we shouldn't need their apologies and their safeguards. There should be regulations.

[Kara Swisher]

Thoughts and prayers don't really help here.

[Scott Galloway]

It should be liability. It should be, you guys have this. You have technology that can scan basically everything that's ever been written in history and then start making really intelligent theses on what should be written about this topic. By recognizing past patterns of everything that has been written in history, you should be able to highlight threats pretty easily. And then immediately using the agentic layer, notify that local police department and not overwhelm them, but say, okay, this is level nine threat, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Exactly.

[Scott Galloway]

What do you want to do with it? How can we cooperate with you?

[Kara Swisher]

And that's where humans get involved. They, they observe it. This is just reporting possible danger and it should be easy for these people, but it's not. By the way, speaking of anthropic, Google plans to invest as much as $40 billion in the company, $10 billion now, and another $30 billion would be invested when anthropic meets certain milestones. Probably smart move from Google, who is also a dominant player in this, who is quietly, I think, remember years I said, I think Google will win all this because they have all the parts. I think they've handled this really well. And I think investing in anthropic in this case is probably a very good idea for them.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. And then what I saw, which shocked me is the deal value is anthropic at 350 billion. I was potentially. I indirectly own Anthropic shares, but.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, from. You bought the Sam Bankman fried stuff, right?

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I bought the FTX claims which owned a bunch of Anthropic. But anyways, in the secondary market, I follow the secondary markets. Anthropic's trading at a trillion dollars.

[Kara Swisher]

Wow.

[Scott Galloway]

Anthropic is now trading at a higher valuation in the secondary markets than OpenAI. So Google coming in here, they'll get a preference on it. They're strategic. Yeah, it's a great investment. I would invest. Hello, Dario. I would invest at $350 billion valuation.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, I'll give you let them know.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, not a journalist. Not a journalist.

[Kara Swisher]

Not a journalist. I do not want to invest, Dario, but I really did enjoy talking to you. All right, last thing. Metaplants lay off around 10% of its workfor of went under the radar. 6,000 open and closed. 6,000 open roles. The company's chief people officer said the move was being made to run the company more efficiently and to offset other investments, maybe that he lost 75 billion in the metaverse. But meanwhile, Microsoft will begin offering voluntary buyouts to 7% of U.S. employees. One time retirement program will be available to employees whose age and years of service total 70 or higher. These are just stacking up these big tech layoffs where they're trying. I mean, I think they overhire during COVID as you and I both said. But this is a real tipping point to impact overall employment levels. It seems these were the big hires and now they're the big fires at this point.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah. So look, as I said, AI is corporate ozempic. It's turned off the signal that in order to grow, you need more calories. In this case, calories means employees. And I had Andrew Yang on my podcast who's having another moment because Andrew is very early and prescient about. About capital replacing labor, capital displacing labor. And he's now getting a lot of attention correctly for and he's on this whole, the capital destruction of labor here is just going to be dramatic. And he's pointing to these companies. You do though have to have some perspective. And that is pre pandemic meta. 2019 had 35,000 employees. Now they have age. So firing 8,000 people, quite frankly takes them back to I think late 2024, early 2025.

[Kara Swisher]

They overhired. That's for sure.

[Scott Galloway]

So now these companies are. The scary thing is these guys are early adopters of AI and as their revenues grow, they're actually shrinking their workforce, which is amazing for earnings. But if they're the early adopters and this starts to waterfall down to other parts of the economy, you can see why people are scared. And Andrew said something really appreciate or I thought insightful. He said the easiest people to fire are the people you haven't hired yet. And this is gonna put pressure on new hires out of college. And I don't wanna come across as non empathetic, but when I graduated from Berkeley, 40% of us had jobs on graduation day, which meant 60% didn't.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I agree.

[Scott Galloway]

And we're so used to anyone under the age of 40 or 45 has only really known one labor economy where there's a war for talent, especially educated talent. What's interesting about this cycle is for the first time in decades, the unemployment rate among college grads is greater than the unemployment rate among non college grads. So I look at this as quite frankly, just part of an economic cycle. I don't buy the catastrophizing. The key question is there's no doubt this is a disruption that's going to disrupt, misplace certain types of information work that can be routinized. The question is how severe and fast it'll be. Because typically when we no longer need elevator operators or we no longer need sewing machine operators or secretaries, it's been slow enough such that the majority of the people are able to adapt, retrain and find something else. Not all of them, but the majority of them. The fear here is that the V is so severe and so fast. Fast that even if there was a potential recovery, there's going to be so many people left out in the dust.

[Kara Swisher]

Well, that's because people were going to those jobs. Right. That was where the. You know, I have to say Alex Wisher called this one a while back. He's like, I'm going into mechanical engineering and energy. He got right. I thought he would go into computer software. And he said, no, AI will replace all these things. Which I thought was pretty pressing of him. And so he's working on areas where there's is, you know, things making things, making things forward, employment. And interestingly, Louis Swisher now may have three jobs because he's working on a campaign and he's trying, doing cooking jobs, two really interesting cooking jobs. So he's trying a variety of things which are not replaceable. Right. Which were really it's really kind of. It's just interesting, like. But I have to tell you, both of them were thinking about, about this without my prompting, like, where is the. Where are the. Where's employment going? But young people have to think really hard now about that and figure it out.

[Scott Galloway]

They'll be fine because their mama's rich.

[Kara Swisher]

No, I understand that, but they're making their own money.

[Scott Galloway]

Middle class warfare there, by the way, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

They're gonna make their own money.

[Scott Galloway]

By the way, Kara, how do you spot the blind man at a nudist beach? Oh, wow, Kara. It's not hard.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, all these jokes now.

[Scott Galloway]

They're like, take a minute, little second. I'm going for the intelligent stuff. I'm going for the stuff that takes me an hour to figure out, because I know I'll tell you about that.

[Kara Swisher]

So hard.

[Scott Galloway]

Penis.

[Kara Swisher]

Got it. Anyway, I just think it's. I think young people have to really

[Scott Galloway]

think AI is going to. Is going to massively level up. Some people massively level down.

[Kara Swisher]

Others, like, say this was brought up in this. You know, someone asked about the idea that we sort of could care less about working class people during the NAFTA days, and now you want us to cry for information workers, people who are

[Scott Galloway]

making a ton of money.

[Kara Swisher]

And one of the things, and it was off the record, but one of the things I think is just an obvious thing that Dara pointed out was that it does level up the workers. Right. Because it does. People have college level information at their fingertips that is easily digestible, which was interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

There were more new business applications formed in the last 12 months than I think in any time in history. If Alex wants to start his own small company, milling and manufacturing ball bearings for some weird, esoteric use, he doesn't need $10 million in capital.

[Kara Swisher]

And 40 engineers talked about ball bearings to me. I didn't understand.

[Scott Galloway]

He needs $50,000 and a bunch of psi licenses and one or two co founders.

[Kara Swisher]

Interesting.

[Scott Galloway]

There's a ton of opportunity. The very basic axiom and the thing I think the next a lot of our candidates should be focused on is that if you loosely break down the labor economy or capital formation to shareholders, investors, workers and consumers, it's pretty easy. You've had a massive leakage of power leveraging capital from consumers and labor to investors. And we need public policy, whether it's alternative minimum taxes, taxes on shares that you borrow against, maybe some form of lowering estate tax, lowering estate tax exemptions. We need to transfer capital back from investors to employees and consumers. Yeah, I agree and it's a fairly basic dynamic. These three entities investors as a percentage of our gdp. The market cap has never been higher. As a percentage of our gdp, wages have never been lower. This isn't rocket science. We need policies. You talked about 1. Increase minimum wage. Stop taxing earners as much. Start taxing owners more.

[Kara Swisher]

More.

[Scott Galloway]

It's not complicated. People will create this incredible arguments that it's about things they can't control like network effects and AI. Don't tax. There's talk about an AI tax. You shouldn't have an AI tax. You should have an alternative minimum tax for any profitable company that's making billions and billions. This notion Andrew. And Andrew I think gets it 70 or 80% right. And we had a really productive conversation. And I, I'm, I love Andrew Yang. I'm an investor in his company because I, I have so much confidence in him. But if you start. I hate industry specific taxes. There's a lot of talk about an AI tax right now. No, have a tax lower payroll taxes such that it's not more expensive to hire someone than buy a robot. Right. And have some sort of cap. Don't let people depreciate capex in year one. And have payroll taxes such that it's more economically advantageous to buy a fucking robot as opposed to hiring somebody.

[Kara Swisher]

That's a really good point.

[Scott Galloway]

There's just like some basic tax law here.

[Kara Swisher]

There are people now focused on. And I have to say that people are very much. And I think just because of these layoffs at Meta and Microsoft, they, they bring people's attention to it in a way that because they're supposed to be the big job places.

[Scott Galloway]

Well, the bellwethers for the whole economy.

[Kara Swisher]

Yes, exactly. So I think I. More and more people are thinking about this idea of where our employment goes, which is always a good thing. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. We come back. The DOJ dropped, drops its Powell probe.

[Scott Galloway]

Support for the show comes from npr. Oh my God, I love npr. NPR understands your curiosity is boundless, but your time isn't. That's why they made up first. Up first is a podcast that covers the three biggest news stories of the day with the reporting and analysis to understand them in under 15 minutes. Look, there's no shortage of news right now, but Up first first doesn't just give you the headlines, it gives you the context. Recent episodes covered how American citizens are getting caught in ICE's growing surveillance web and what the Iran war means for the US economy and why Attorney General Pam Bonney's exit is bigger than it looks. Three stories fully reported every morning in under 15 minutes. Up first does something most daily news shows don't it asks better questions to get better answers. Not just what happened, but how it came out, why, why it's a big deal, and what happens next. That's the difference between knowing the news and understanding it. Follow NPR's Up first podcast so you can understand what matters and what happens next. It's hard news through a human lens.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Support for this show comes from Framer Running a business is pretty tough, especially if you're a perfectionist and any and every little mistake on your website just drops drives you insane. Framer is your shortcut to fixing those problems. Framer is an enterprise grade no code website builder used by teams like companies like Perplexity and Miro to move faster with real time collaboration and robust cms. With everything you need for great SEO, not to mention advanced analytics that include integrated A B testing, your designers and marketers are empowered to build and maximize your.com from day one. So whether you want to launch a new site, test a few landing pages, or migrate your full.com framer has programs for startups, scale ups and large enterprises to make going from an idea to lifesite as easy and fast as possible. Learn how you can get more out of your.com from a framer specialist or get started building for free [e-mail] pivot for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com pivot for 30% off framer.com pivot rules and restrictions restrictions apply.

[Mitch Purse]

I'm Mitch Purse, two time NWSL champion, championship MVP and forward for the US women's national team. Before I went pro, I graduated from Harvard with a degree in psychology, which comes in handy more than you think. Any athlete pursuing greatness knows there's a certain mentality you have to have. What people don't know is what that costs. In my podcast, Confessions of an Elite Athlete, I sit down with the best athletes in the world and explore the psychology, mindset and unseen battles on the path to greatness. So take a seat and learn from the Confessions of an elite athlete on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott we're back. The DOJ is ending its criminal probe into the Federal Reserve and its chair, Jerome Powell, although the U.S. attorney Jeanine Pirro is warning the case could be reopened if new facts emerge. As usual, they always cover their fucking bases. Still, Senator Thom Tillis says he's ready to move Forward with the confirmation of Trump's nominee, Kevin Warsh. And with that hurdle removed, Warsh's confirmation by the end of Powell's term on May 15th is looking likely. At his confirmation hearing last week, Warsh rejected the idea that he's Trump. Sock post. How long after he's confirmed does Trump threaten to fire him? Let's just remember Trump hired Jerome Powell. He just. It wasn't a sock puppet. And that was a problem for Trump, who's trying to take over. I think Thom Tillis did a great job here. Now let's see if Jeanine Pirro tries to do some tricks after Warsh is in place. They could do that because they're a bunch of persistent liars. So. And quick thoughts.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm glad. Kudos to Senator Tillis. I think he's the reason that it was dropped, stopped, and I'd like to see most of these cases continue. I love, I love that Patel, Director Patel filed a suit against the Atlantic. I would love the discovery against Patel, by the way. That tribe will never see the light of day.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

No, he lost.

[Kara Swisher]

He already lost one.

[Scott Galloway]

Or his lawyers are going to sit him down and go, okay, these are the questions they're going to ask. So, yeah, I don't. But that was a ridiculous. That was lawfare. That was a nuisance suit. I'm glad it's been dropped. That's just a distraction. But I also want to bring up, I've been very complimentary of Warsh. I was again rattled by his inability to state on the record that Biden won the 2020 election.

[Kara Swisher]

I agree with you. He was a sock puppet. I think Warren did a great job interviewing him, by the way.

[Scott Galloway]

It's okay. You're supposed to be. You're claiming you're gonna be an independent Fed, which is key to the growth of an economy, and you won't. So was Chairman Powell appointed legally? I mean, at some point, folks, there has to be a truth, and you have to be willing to state that truth under oath. And they all state the same thing, saying he was duly sworn in, right?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, my God.

[Kara Swisher]

I know, I know. He really was a wimp. But he definitely took some shine off of him, I'll tell you that. And I think they all feel that way. Like even Tim Tillis said to me when I interviewed him, look, I had to say those things because if not, I'd get run over. I would be. A martyr is dead. A martyr is dead. So I don't know what to tell you, and that's a really Ridiculous way to hire this thing. And of course, Trump will continue to try. He has two years to try to fuck up the Fed, so he will. So, Kevin Marsh, get ready. You better start to find a backbone. Also, speaking of communism, the Trump administration is reportedly considering invoking the Defense Production act to bail out Spirit Airlines, though it's still unclear what exactly the justification would be. There's talk of a plan that would loan Spirit, which has filed for bankruptcy twice, about $500 million. In exchange, the government would own as much as 90% of the airline. It's a playbook we've seen before Trump, with the government taking stakes in Intel, U.S. steel and others. But Trump is facing pushback, correctly from fellow Republicans, with Senator Ted Cruz calling the bailout a terrible idea. You've said many times that some companies deserve to fail. Is Spirit one of them?

[Scott Galloway]

This is fucking insane. Insane. Let me get this. We're capitalists on the way up, and then on the way down, we bail out companies. We're cronyists, so we're total. That's not even socialism. It's cronyism. Bankruptcy. As someone who has started companies who have gone bankrupt, as someone who's invested in companies that have gone bankrupt, as someone who's been an operator, an investor in a company as we pull it emerged out of bankruptcy, bankruptcy is a feature, not a bug. The market changes and the company no longer comes, can support the assets and obligations it has given changes in the market, it declares bankruptcy. They get an umbrella, basically, coverage to get out of leases, to get out of capital or expenses or debt to Boeing or sell their gates. They get out of union contracts, they get to repackage, and they re emerge to fight another day. When you start bailing out companies that aren't sustainable, all you do is invite taxpayers to bail out more. The government is not supposed to pick winners and losers here. Delta, American and United all had CEOs who paid themselves $150 million in compensation due to options that were artificially elevated because they took all of their free cash flow pre Covid and used it to buy back shares, juicing their stock, juicing their options. See above. 150 million in compensation. And then when shit gets real and Covid comes and the airline shift, they all decide, all of a sudden we're all in this together. And they go, fucking hat in hand. They should have all been allowed to go bankrupt. And guess what? We've decided that airlines are somewhat uniquely American and that we need to bail out Spirit. Fuck that. Burn, baby. Burn this shit. Should absolutely go out of business. And guess what? In three years, it's more likely to survive under the protection from its creditors of a Chapter 11 bankruptcy.

[Kara Swisher]

This is stupid, stupid, stupid. I agree. You've said it best. It'll be interesting to see. I remember interviewing Chamath Palihapiti who said essentially this, what he's saying now, he's like, no, what we really need to do is protect these things. You're right. Them, the companies deserve to fail.

[Scott Galloway]

That's socialism. And as Margaret Thatcher said, with socialism, eventually you run out of other people's money. You end up with DeLorean, you end up with Air France, where you pick national champions and keep bailing them. And out.

[Kara Swisher]

Do you remember it was called Air Chance. It was so bad. You don't remember that?

[Scott Galloway]

I've been involved. I was on the board of Eddie Bauer. They put me on the board when they were going bankrupt. Remember them?

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

And. And we decided, okay, the way to. The way to do it was to. Did you just say you liked it?

[Kara Swisher]

No, I never did.

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, really?

[Kara Swisher]

I was always like. I walked in because then Patagonia showed up or something. Whatever else. Or rei, and then like, oh.

[Scott Galloway]

But anyways, one of the wonderful things about America is that, one, we let people and companies fail, and two, we give them a second chance. And a key component of that, a key construct of that is bankruptcy law.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep, Yep. It works well. It works well. It keeps everyone clean. Speaking of not clean, a US army soldier has been charged with making $400,000 by betting on the removal of Venezuela. Well, in Leonard Maduro on Polymarket, soldier used classified information. He's quite close to the situation to make wagers. In the weeks leading up to the capture, Polymarket said it referred the matter to the Justice Department again. Of course. Of course. Nobody's catching the Trump people. They get the soldier who pulls this shit exactly right. But he shouldn't be exposing classified information. But they have got to clean up their acts, Polymarket and the rest of them, because insiders, it's gotta be dead obvious to them who's doing. Doing this. Right? Including the Trump family or whoever close affiliations are doing this. They've got to go after a big fish, not this. I mean, this soldier did the wrong thing. He's betraying his job. But it seems like we're picking up the little fish here.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but. Okay, I mean, my defense would be. Well, our commander in chief is doing it, isn't he? I mean, I think a really scrappy state GA or Attorney General should be suing this guy and then figuring out a way to have discovery at the, the highest levels to see if they're doing it. Because I think this is going on everywhere now. I don't. Is it fair to say he revealed confidential information or he just traded on it?

[Kara Swisher]

He knew about what was. I think he was part of that team.

[Scott Galloway]

But he didn't reveal. He didn't compromise the security.

[Kara Swisher]

He was betting on it. In betting on it, he certainly did by saying I know the outcome. Nobody knew who he was but he was using. So sideways. I guess, I don't know. I guess. Yes, I think so.

[Scott Galloway]

Look, there's no getting around it. It's wrong. Wrong. But when people who make more money as elected officials are making more money engaging in similar type behavior, whether it's trading on insider information in stocks or insider. The options activity before Trump announces anything about the war in the oil market is crazy. So there are clearly dozens if not hundreds of people, perhaps even including cabinet members, members who are making money in the predictions markets and so let's find them. Yeah. So have it. And by the way, the, the, the enforcement division for crypto that was the one of the first divisions where they were fired.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyone remote, anyone kind of any sheriff, anyone with a badge actually looking into this stuff has been fired.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

The same way they've neutered the IRS because they're like the, the greatest way, you know, the easiest way to commit crimes is to make sure there's no enforcement. So I don't want to say I feel for this guy but I think his defense is going to be pretty robust. And it's like pointing up.

[Kara Swisher]

Pointing up.

[Scott Galloway]

And it goes back to the same thing. Polymark and Kalshi shouldn't have to decide. I mean so for example, I think Kalshee finds somebody for some congresspeople for trading. Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

No, they kick them off the platform.

[Scott Galloway]

I think kicked them off the platform. Okay. I think that's like Ford Motor figuring out that someone was going 100 miles an hour in their Mustang and then repossessing the Mustang. It's not up to Ford. It's up to the highway patrol. It's up to the government.

[Kara Swisher]

They have a business. They should make sure insider trading is not being used to bet. It's unfair to the people on their platform. By the way. It doesn't make for.

[Scott Galloway]

I think it's the government's job.

[Kara Swisher]

I know. But for their own self interests. If there's all these insiders with you, it's A shitty platform. Right. So they. In their own self.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, but they don't have.

[Kara Swisher]

I get it. But it's good for their business not to. For people to feel like it's all gamed by rich sons of Trump administration officials, et cetera.

[Scott Galloway]

So there's. Okay to be fair. So I'm just thinking this through. There's in finance, there's know your customer. And to trade on a platform they have to ensure you're an accredited investor. There is some regulation by the banks around trading.

[Kara Swisher]

But they have compliance divisions. All investment banks do. All. They all have compliance divisions.

[Scott Galloway]

But isn't it pretty easy to hide your identity? Did this guy sign up as master?

[Kara Swisher]

No, they can find. Find them. They can find. He did, he tried, but it's not that hard.

[Scott Galloway]

But is it the platform's responsibility or is it the government's responsibility and cooperation

[Kara Swisher]

to alert people to unusual trades seconds before that kind of stuff they can do and then alert the government.

[Scott Galloway]

I don't doubt it. But the enforcement mechanism and the penalties should be government.

[Kara Swisher]

No, they should refer it. Enforcement is referrals. Right. And that's the thing. Anyway, not a good look for them, but not a good look for anyone. But you know what? This soldier. Soldier. He's a cheater. But look, keep looking upwards everybody, because. And then they. And you should. Because lots of people are benefiting.

[Scott Galloway]

All I gotta say is we're gonna put the wrong guy in prison. That's right.

[Kara Swisher]

That's right. All right. Anyway, one more quick break. When we get back, we'll have wins and fails. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee, full [e-mail] Honest to God. Like skinny, I want to be jacked without contacts. Tone and sculpt are rooted in diet culture.

[Mitch Purse]

We're inheriting a lot of nonsense that

[Kara Swisher]

makes specifically women feel like they have to shrink in order to expand. And I'm just saying, no, let's just like lift heavy and like take up space.

[Mitch Purse]

That's the expansion I'm reben arson. And this week on Project Swagger, I break down the strategies that helped me

[Kara Swisher]

build confidence and feel at home in my body, especially, especially after two babies.

[Mitch Purse]

Listen now at Project Swagger wherever you get your podcasts.

[Scott Galloway]

From Iran to Venezuela to China, what is driving President Trump's foreign policy?

[Kara Swisher]

Both Russia and China are big losers

[Scott Galloway]

if there's a transition in the nature of the, of the Iranian government, which again, is why I think we have

[Kara Swisher]

to see this campaign through.

[Scott Galloway]

I'm Jake Sullivan.

[Ellie Honig]

And I'm John Finer.

[Scott Galloway]

And we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast.

[Ellie Honig]

This week, Trump's former national security adviser, HR McMaster and deputy national Security Adviser Matt Pottinger join us.

[Scott Galloway]

The episode's out now. Search for and follow the Long Game wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails.

[Scott Galloway]

You go first.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, I'm going to stick in between this. The Trump administration terminated the board, the National Seat Science Foundation's board, which again, he does all these things all the time. He's trying to hollow out any kind of compliance or over people who overlook anything because he wants to do whatever he wants. But I would have to say I think the media failed in this thing over the weekend. It was really disappointing to see so many people acting like taking advantage of a tragedy to, to just stick their chests out and do these dramatic videos and act like they're influencers. I found it embarrassing and sad. I ran into some of them and I looked at my shoes. I didn't know what to for once I was like, I really would like to tell them they suck. It was disappointing and obviously continued disappointment with the Trump administration taking advantage of it. But I expected them to do this and then snap right back into shape. So I have very lower standards for Trump administration people, but not for the media. And I just, this is not the way chase audiences to chase whatever they were chasing. It was really painful to watch and I do, some people were really traumatized because it is terrifying, I suspect, to be there. But again, your job is to report the news and that's what I would really like it. So kudos to those who did my win. I just, I don't know if you're watching Bette Midler on social media. She is so funny. She is sort of has a whole new life on social media and it's so clever. She puts out so much funny stuff and she just put out a protest song with the music video featuring her and her Beaches co star Barbara Hershey. They apparently Go to a lot of these kings marches or marches together. And I just love the two of them. I love that movie Beaches, by the way. And I just think she's using her platform. And I'm really very much on brand with her. And I think it dovetails into her incredible, still incredible singing voice and cleverness. And I just really love her. And I love her all over again. So that's it.

[Scott Galloway]

When I was. I think I was in college and I went with my buddy Lee to see Beaches as two men do. Go see a movie. Anyways, and we're sitting in line. My friend Lee Lotus is literally the funniest person in the world. There's only two people that make me laugh out loud. One is Lee Lotus, the other is David Frey. But anyways, we're sitting in line, as he used to do at the Man Brewing, like a line around the block to see opening night of Beaches with Bette Midler and Barbara Hershey. And we knew it was about best friends and we knew one dies and everyone coming out was sobbing. And Lee goes, it must mean that Barbara Hershey died. No one would sob if Bette Midler died. No one sobs about the overweight singer dying. And I thought that was so fucking funny. I couldn't stop laughing. He's like, no one's gonna be that sad about Bette Midler dying.

[Kara Swisher]

I would. She died in the. No, but Janis Joplin. Do you remember? What was that movie?

[Scott Galloway]

Oh, no.

[Kara Swisher]

The Rose.

[Scott Galloway]

Let me be clear. In real life, there will be. There are few people more beloved than Bette Midler. What I'm saying is, in the movie, it's like, it's clear that the hot. The hot one, the pretty girl dying is the real tragedy.

[Kara Swisher]

But it was how she died and the. Oh, the end.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, I know. That was.

[Kara Swisher]

I'm going to go back. We should watch it together. Because I would say you are the wind beneath my wings, but really, I appreciate that you're not. You're not the wind beneath my.

[Scott Galloway]

Anyway, yeah, she was. Barry Manilow was her pianist, her backup pianist when she was in the.

[Kara Swisher]

In the do for gay audiences. Always.

[Scott Galloway]

Also, I gotta be honest, she's the source of one of my favorite jokes, which is my favorite jokes. My partner. My partner is Polish, and on Friday nights, I dress up like Germany and invade her. She said that? That was her joke. That was her joke. She said her husband. Her husband was German.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah. Yeah. She has a lot of dirty jokes. She used to be a lot dirtier, but she's still delightful. Anyway your wins and fails.

[Scott Galloway]

So I got all bummed out and when I saw this, the shooting and I personally went on social media and to make myself feel better, I find I do find some solace or respite in data. And I looked up data about gun violence and actually in terms of homicide, America has never been safer. And that is despite all the recent public and political violence and the fact that you get served it on your social media feed. America's homicide rate fell by the fell by the largest amount ever recorded in 2025. And preliminary data tracking local murder rates shows that it could be, get this, the lowest murder rate since 1900. The lowest murder rate on record. And the FBI has to confirm this later in 2026. But the decline is followed by followed 2 sharp declines in 23 and 24, making this a sustained trend, not a blip. So while our blood pressure anxiety is up, if you actually look at the data on a lot of levels, America has never been safer or less violent,

[Kara Swisher]

which has been the trend, which has been the trend actually.

[Scott Galloway]

And but if you just watch TikTok or these videos you would think it's chaos in the wild west everywhere also, except in school.

[Kara Swisher]

Scott, School shootings are way up. It's crazy.

[Scott Galloway]

I think that's fair. And mass shootings are way up.

[Kara Swisher]

Mass shootings, yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

But the actual number of homicides appears to be at an all time low.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah.

[Scott Galloway]

Also drug overdose deaths are seeing a sustained decline. In the 12 months before November 2025, the US saw about 70,000 drug overdose deaths, which is a 16% decline from the year by before. And in 2024, overdose deaths fell 27%, the largest single year decline on record. It feels as if, you know, we did recognize or started to move in on the opiate crisis and we're seeing a really healthy, wonderful decline in overdose deaths. Anyways, I just, I always like to go to the data when I'm freaking out to see should I be freaking out and upset. And I do find comfort in the fact that it does look like America is becoming less or the homicide rate appears to be at an all time low.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, good one.

[Scott Galloway]

My loss is more depressing. My loss is an increase in HIV diagnoses in Zambia a year after the Trump administration froze pepfar, which is just America at its best. HIV services and parts of Zambia killing billions. They basically it's collapsed the funding and now new infections are rising. Zambia had 84% of its HIV financing coming from PEPFAR at the start of 2025, which is one of the largest aid dependencies of any country globally. And the cuts put 23,000 health workers supporting the HIV response out of work. 23,000 people working on HIV prevention.

[Kara Swisher]

This is a George Bush thing, by the way.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, it's his legacy. His most positive legacy.

[Kara Swisher]

Absolutely.

[Scott Galloway]

And in clinics where services were interrupted, new HIV diagnoses dropped nearly 30%. In other words, they're not diagnosing it. And not because infections fell, but because people stopped getting tested. And for the first time in PEPFAR's history, the program put fewer people on HIV therapy than the year before. And without rapid restoration models, Project HIV prevalence in Zambia could quadruple. With more than 1 1/2 million lives at risk, children and women hit hardest, and globally, sustained funding gaps could produce 6 million additional infections and 4 million more AIDS deaths by 2029. So it's really strange, and I wrote about this in my newsletter last week, if you want to kill millions of people, do it slow and methodically. And there's definitely a zone of empathy where when people are thousands of miles away, you're somewhat comfortable with millions of deaths.

[Kara Swisher]

This is all musk and Trump.

[Scott Galloway]

This is Doge and Trump. This is just. And also, it's not only the wrong thing to do, do these funding cuts, it's the stupid thing to do. Because what people don't realize is how much we benefit from the soft power and positive brand of America. They're obnoxious, they're a bit imperialist, but at the end of the day, their heart's in the right place. They know people who got funding. They know a soup kitchen in Ukraine. They know someone who survived. This is why I was so fucking pissed off. Not pissed off. All the bullshit. Oh, I won't call all the scrutiny and virtue signaling around Bill Gates. Gates, Quite frankly, the 4 million people alive who would have died from malaria don't give a flying fuck that Bill Gates fucks Russian prostitutes. In my mind, Bill gets a lot of hall passes. Anyways, a little bit of a diversion there, okay? But we have millions of people dying, and it reflects so poorly. Our budgets reflect our values. And the fact that we decided to cut this budget, which is arguably the best money spent, both from a brand perception and just a morality viewpoint. Million. I mean, for God's sakes, 4 million people.

[Kara Swisher]

I know there's gonna be millions more. Can I just say, I was walking in D.C. this weekend. It's so funny. Apropos of this is I was walking with my kids and Amanda, and this woman was walking behind us, and Then got in front of us and then she turned around and realized who I was. And she said, can I just thank you and Scott Galloway for talking about this issue. She's from usaid. And she goes, I just wanna say, you all talking about it all, the, the biggest difference. And I was sort of. She's like, I was laid off. The things were the thing, the damage that's been done has been irreparable in many ways. And she just was lovely, just was. She got very emotional and I was like, well, you're doing the real work. Like, you know, not us. But anyway, I'm glad you brought that up. Totally separate. Like, literally yesterday it happened, I heard from.

[Scott Galloway]

So there was this lovely young man in my fraternity named Greg Townsend. One of those guys everybody liked, everybody liked him. We went to the same high school. He was a couple years younger than me. Hadn't heard from him in 30 years. We do that segment talking about cutting funding. He went to law school and decided he wanted to devote his life to hunting down and prosecuting war criminals for the UN or some agency out of Switzerland. So he spent the last 20 years building cases against war criminals to try and create disincentive for people to think twice when they go out and start committing war crimes. And he got a notice that because of government cutting and doge, he's out of a job. I'm like, to have a guy that talented who could have been making 2 million bucks a year protecting white collar crime for Scadden Arbs decide that?

[Kara Swisher]

No, he's defending Elon Musk and his law.

[Scott Galloway]

Yeah, he said, no, I want to create disincentive such that leaders think twice before they start killing civilians. And he's, I can't think this kid was so smart and so talented.

[Kara Swisher]

We need to respect, restore much of this, not all of it.

[Scott Galloway]

And what do we do when we get the gift of these people's humanity where they decide to apply their expertise against saving people? We will never meet disincentivizing acts of war, acts of horror. And then we cut the funding anyway. That's my virtue signal.

[Kara Swisher]

That's great. I think that's a great one. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on on with K, I spoke to Ested Herndon, host of the new Fox podcast America actually, who's a former New York Times, wonderful New York Times reporter. We talked about the show, what politics will be like after Trump and the playbook Democrats will be using in the upcoming midterms and beyond. Let's listen to a quick clip.

[Scott Galloway]

It hasn't been necessarily maybe it's become a little more progressive, but it's certainly become more activist. It's certainly become more less passive for, I think, the traditional Democratic playbook. So I think those shifts are some of what we're seeing in Maine and I think what we're seeing across, across the country.

[Kara Swisher]

Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday.

[Scott Galloway]

Today's show was produced by Larry Amen, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Todd Weissman. Ernie Anderside engineered the episode. Rich Shibley edited the video. Thanks also to Dubros Missiveiro and Dan Shalon. The Shot Cross Vox Media's Executive Producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the [e-mail] pod we'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business care. I'll see you later in the week.