PLAIN ENGLISH WITH DEREK THOMPSON
Episode: "America’s Religious Revival Is a Mirage"
Date: April 8, 2026
Host: Derek Thompson
Guest: Ryan Burge (Author, "Graphs About Religion" Substack, Political Scientist, Religion Data Expert)
Episode Overview
This episode takes a deep dive into the state of religion in the United States, specifically investigating the narrative around a supposed "religious revival" among young people. Derek Thompson is joined by Ryan Burge, a leading researcher on American religious trends, to analyze data about religious identification, church attendance, and the evolving relationship between faith, politics, and culture. The conversation is rich with statistics, historical context, and sociological insight, ultimately challenging the idea that America is seeing a true resurgence in religiosity.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. America’s Unique Relationship with Religion
- Statistical Outlier: The U.S. is far more religious than other wealthy countries. About 50% of Americans say religion is very important to them, compared to just 17% in Switzerland (the most religious rich country in Europe) ([05:37]).
- Ryan Burge: “We are three times more religious than we should be compared to our European neighbors.” ([05:37])
- Historical Roots: No state church at America's founding fostered a competitive, dynamic religious market, spurring innovation in religious practices and sustained deep religiosity ([07:09]).
- Ryan Burge: “If you want people to hate something, make it part of the government. … We had the most robust religious market of any country in the western part of the world.” ([07:09])
2. Rise of “Nones” and the 1990s Inflection Point
- Flat to ‘Hockey Stick’: From the 1940s to 1990, Americans reporting “no religion” was flat. Then around 1990, it spiked dramatically ([09:27]).
- Why? A complex mix of:
- Cold War associations between atheism and Communism ended after fall of the Berlin Wall ([10:11]).
- The rise of the Internet enabled community and disclosure around nonbelief.
- Politics: Increasing intertwining of Christianity with the Republican Party ([10:11]-[13:12]).
- Why? A complex mix of:
- Political Sorting: The conservative shift in religion led liberals (especially young ones) to increasingly identify as religiously unaffiliated ([15:03]).
- Ryan Burge: “70% of very liberal young people are non-religious. … To be religious for them is to be conservative. They have no concept of the social gospel movement … they just understand American politics and religion as the religious right.” ([15:03])
3. Politics and Religion: The Great Polarization
- Media Habits Illustrate Ideological Divide: Atheists are more likely to watch MSNBC than white Catholics or Mormons are to watch Fox News ([16:15]).
- Religious Affiliation as Political Identity: Claiming a religious label, especially “evangelical,” is now often a marker of Republican political identity, regardless of genuine belief ([17:41]).
- Ryan Burge: “Over a quarter of self-identified evangelicals don’t go to church.… it’s because they’re Republicans and conservatives and vote for Donald Trump.” ([17:41])
4. The So-Called “Religious Revival” is a Mirage
- It's a Pause, Not a Reversal: The apparent stop in the growth of the “nones” is being driven primarily by older Americans reaffirming their religious identity, not by young people returning to faith ([17:41], [20:12]).
- Ryan Burge: “Older Americans are more likely to say they're religious today than boomers were even five years ago… This is just a pause. I do not expect the line [of religiously unaffiliated] to go down in the future.” ([17:41])
5. Growth of Non-Denominational Evangelicalism
- America’s Fastest-Growing Faith Sector: Non-denominational churches now account for about 14% of Americans—triple the size of the largest traditional denomination ([22:11]).
- Ryan Burge: “Non-denoms are probably three times the size of the Southern Baptist Convention.” ([22:11])
- Why They Thrive: These churches are anti-institutional and grassroots. They're typically started by laypeople rather than trained clergy. They focus on local accountability and reject bureaucracy ([24:23]).
- Ryan Burge: “This is the epitome of the social media Internet, too… You can build a following up right online and then that sort of becomes this whole thing.” ([24:23])
6. Religion Mirrors Broader Social Trends
- The “Substackification” of Faith: The rise of non-denominational churches parallels trends in media and politics—personality-driven, anti-establishment, audience-supported movements ([28:43]).
- Sustainability Challenges: Leadership transition is a key challenge for personality-driven churches; absence of structure creates vulnerability ([28:43]).
7. Understanding the “Nones”
- Internal Diversity: New Typology
- Epsinors (Spiritual but Not Religious): Interested in practices like astrology, yoga, crystals more than traditional faith. (~1/3) ([39:23])
- NINOs (Nones in Name Only): Report as unaffiliated but actually still participate in religious life; suggests survey confusion. (~1/4) ([40:46])
- Dones: Atheistic, completely uninterested in spirituality or religion; often older. (~1/3) ([40:46])
- Zealous Atheists: Actively advocate against religion; generally younger and report lower well-being. (~10%) ([40:46])
- Ryan Burge: “Zealous atheists are younger, they’re angrier, they’re miserable and they want to drag you into their misery as well.” ([40:46])
- Most SBNRs Aren’t Building Thick Communities: “Replacing God” often leads not to filling a spiritual vacuum, but to more emptiness ([46:31]).
8. The Dangerous Consequence of Disengagement
- Nothing in Particulars: The fastest-growing subgroup, especially among the young, are least educated, least affluent, and least likely to participate in civic life ([52:45]).
- Ryan Burge: “One third of 18 to 22-year-olds say they're nothing in particular. And it's like you're setting yourself up for failure as you move into adulthood because you don't have the social networks that your parents and grandparents had.” ([52:45])
- Social Capital Loss: Dropping out of religion compounds disengagement from other critical social institutions, making life harder and lonelier for many.
9. Religion’s Role in Happiness and Connection
- The Happiness Gap: Christians and religiously active people are now significantly more likely to describe themselves as “very happy” than their unaffiliated peers—a gap that has doubled since the 1950s ([56:16]).
- Associations, Not Direct Causation: Happiness is closely tied with social connection; marriage, stable income, and education are all intertwined with religious participation ([61:36]).
- Derek Thompson: “It all comes back to the fact that people need people. And we have a handful of institutions, marriage and religion, that are very good at keeping people attached to people.” ([61:36])
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On America’s Religious Market:
“I always tell people if you want them to hate something, make it part of the government. … We had the most robust religious market of any country in the western part of the world.”
— Ryan Burge ([07:09]) -
On Nones and Politics:
“To be religious for them is to be conservative. They have no concept of the social gospel movement or the religious fervor around abolitionism or the civil rights movement. ... They just understand American politics and religion as the religious right.”
— Ryan Burge ([15:03]) -
On Non-Denominational Churches:
“Bureaucracy, we hate bureaucracy, especially when it's nameless and faceless. Guess what? Non denominational have almost no bureaucracy.”
— Ryan Burge ([24:23]) -
On the Substackification of Faith:
“It’s almost a substackification of American religion… you're not here for the Methodism or Lutheranism. You're here for my flavor of American Christianity and the way I preach it and the way we minister to these people.”
— Ryan Burge ([28:43]) -
On "Church Without God” Movements:
“You can't just like pick and choose what parts of religion make sense to you and then leave the others behind. It's a cohesive... like a three-legged stool.”
— Ryan Burge ([46:31]) -
On Social Disengagement:
“One third of 18 to 22-year-olds say they're nothing in particular. And it's like you're setting yourself up for failure as you move into adulthood because you don't have the social networks that your parents and grandparents had to help them get through these difficult spots in life.”
— Ryan Burge ([52:45]) -
On the Essence of Religion’s Community Role:
“You don’t have to believe in any woo-woo, any spiritual, any resurrection... to understand the miracle of what it means to hang out in community with people for a long period of time who want to help you and you want to help them. That in many ways is magical and spiritual and otherworldly.”
— Ryan Burge ([64:58]) -
On Building Lasting Communities:
“If you don’t have that central spine of purpose, this is not going to last. If your only purpose is just, let's get together, that's not going to last. You need that higher purpose. You need that vertical spine in order to build a truly strong horizontal community.”
— Derek Thompson ([68:34])
Timestamps for Major Segments
- The U.S. as an Outlier in Religion – [05:37]-[07:09]
- The 1990s Inflection Point in Religious Affiliation (“Hockey Stick Moment”) – [09:27]-[15:03]
- Religious Identity as Political Identity – [15:03]-[17:41]
- The Plateau of Secularization: Myth of the Revival – [17:41]-[22:04]
- Non-Denominational Churches & Anti-Institutional Growth – [22:11]-[28:43]
- Typology of the Religious “Nones” – [38:18]-[44:49]
- Spiritual But Not Religious (SBNRs) – [44:49]-[49:57]
- Loss of Social Capital and Civic Participation – [52:45]-[56:16]
- Religion’s Association with Happiness & Social Connection – [56:16]-[64:58]
- The Necessity of Strong Purpose in Community – [68:23]-[70:26]
Conclusion
Ryan Burge and Derek Thompson comprehensively dissect the myth of a contemporary “American religious revival,” clarifying that apparent changes in data are largely artifacts of older Americans reaffirming their tribal identities rather than mass religious re-engagement among youth. The real story is a continued generational shift toward non-affiliation, and a transformation in the very nature of religious experience—from traditional, institutional forms toward entrepreneurial, anti-institutional models. At the same time, the erosion of religious and social institutions raises profound challenges for America’s broader “social fabric,” disproportionately impacting the most vulnerable. The episode underscores the enduring human need for connection, purpose, and community—needs once met by religion, and now met much less reliably as traditional structures erode.