Plain English with Derek Thompson
Episode: Why We're Addicted to ‘Sh*tty Flow’
Date: March 31, 2026
Guest: Brad Stulberg, author of The Way of Excellence

Overview

In this episode, Derek Thompson sits down with Brad Stulberg to explore the nature of “excellence” in a world permeated by distraction, quantification, and performative self-improvement. They discuss the difference between genuine connection and alienation, the traps of “pseudo-excellence” and “sh*tty flow,” and practical ways to pursue mastery, satisfaction, and meaning. The conversation blends humor, philosophy, real-life examples, and memorable metaphors, drawing on ancient wisdom and modern science.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Machine: Modern Life and Value Hijacking

Timestamps: 00:05–04:52

• Derek reflects on how external metrics—likes, views, scores—pervade modern life, replacing intrinsic values with quantifiable objectives.

• Recounts philosopher C. Thi Nguyen’s notion (from a previous episode) that the “machine” bulldozes internal motivations:

  “Make number go up. It might as well be the four-word mantra of the modern world.” (Derek, 02:01)

• Derek introduces the central question: What does it mean to pursue excellence in a world designed to hijack our attention and values?

2. Introducing Brad Stulberg & The Way of Excellence

Timestamps: 04:52–05:46

• Brad shares his roles as Tigers fan, author on applied philosophy, mental skills coach, and Michigan faculty member.
• Derek frames the conversation around two antagonists from Brad’s book: alienation and pseudo-excellence.

3. Alienation – Disconnection in Daily Life

Timestamps: 05:46–08:28

• Alienation is described as the separation from ourselves, others, and our values.

• Brad’s anecdote: Even pumping gas, he’s interrupted—digital noise is omnipresent, preventing reflection.

  “I can't even pump my gas without something getting in the way of me and what I'm doing of thinking my own thoughts…” (Brad, 06:10)

• Derek relates alienation to being pulled from our inner compass by external forces.

• Brad extends this to the loss of “intimacy” not just with people, but with craft; distraction erodes opportunities for deep attention and connection.

4. Flow vs. Sh*tty Flow

Timestamps: 08:28–10:29

• Derek introduces psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s concept of flow, an immersive, engaged state.
• Brad discusses shtty flow*: values-neutral, immersive experiences like doomscrolling or slot machines, where “time melts away—but not in a direction you want.”
• Not all flow is good; modern life is rife with “sh*tty flow” opportunities, while good flow (deep, values-aligned engagement) is rarer and requires effort.

5. Pseudo-Excellence & Performative Success

Timestamps: 10:29–13:08

• Brad: Pseudo-excellence is about performing greatness, not achieving it—e.g., elaborate influencer routines that impress but don’t necessarily produce real results.

  “Pseudo excellence...is performance art.” (Brad, 11:09)

• Example: A “pseudo-excellent” deadlifter obsesses over minutiae (protein enzymes, foam rolling, sunlight) but loses sight of the critical core action.

• The true greats focus on what matters (core actions), not ancillary rituals.

6. Who Falls for Pseudo-Excellence?

Timestamps: 13:08–16:19

• Audience: Young, often alone men drawn by the manosphere, and (in different form) women via wellness and tradwife trends.

• It fosters parasocial relationships, isolation, and a cycle of consuming (not doing) mastery content.

• There’s a commercial “grift”: routines often come attached to products, courses, supplements.

  “If you keep someone alone…they’re going to have six hours, eight hours a day to watch you stream whatever it is that you’re doing instead of doing real things…” (Brad, 14:44)

• The myth of marginal gains (Team Sky example): real improvement doesn’t come from stacking tiny tweaks, especially when marketed as purchasable “magic bullets.”

7. Defining Excellence

Timestamps: 18:23–20:15

• Excellence: “Involved engagement in something worthwhile that aligns with your values.” (Brad, 18:59)
• Excellence isn’t mere success; it’s driven by values, mastery, mattering.

  “If excellence doesn’t have values, then to your point, we might look at people who get quote, unquote, excellent results or have massive successes, but who are completely values deprived along the way." (Brad, 20:15)

• Greek concept arete: living one’s full potential through committed pursuit.

8. Extrinsic vs. Intrinsic Motivation

Timestamps: 21:16–24:42

• Derek and Brad critique cliché self-help advice to ignore all external validation; external results matter, but shouldn’t be the sole motivator.

• Ray Allen’s NBA championship story: after achieving his dream, he felt empty (the “arrival fallacy”).

  “You can want to achieve and win while, at the same time, assuaging yourself of the expectation that winning is going to fulfill you.” (Brad, 23:16)

• Real joy is in the process, not merely the outcome.

9. On the Climb: Sisyphus, Ulysses, and the Nature of Striving

Timestamps: 24:42–28:29

• Derek cites Tennyson’s "Ulysses": even victors remain restless; all experience becomes an “arch” framing what’s next.
• Brad invokes Camus’ reading of Sisyphus: life is endless pushing of the boulder—can one do it smiling and with good company?
• Myth of “suffering = greatness” debunked; joy and satisfaction must coexist with challenge and hard work.

10. The Ingredients of Excellence

Timestamps: 28:29–32:20

• Curiosity: The key factor keeping people engaged after the honeymoon phase of learning, when progress slows.

  "Curiosity is a superpower for achievement and for the pursuit of excellence." (Brad, 28:56)

• Lane Norton’s deadlift journey: 8 years to add 7 pounds to a record lift, driven by micro-experimentation and curiosity.

• Kobe Bryant quote:

  "I play to figure things out." (Kobe Bryant, as cited by Brad, 31:12)

• Consistency: Real progress comes from “pounding the stone” day after day, not short, dramatic bursts.

11. The Craft vs. The Accomplishment

Timestamps: 32:20–35:56

• Derek reflects on the difference between “fitness” (requires constant effort) and “accomplishment” (once done, it lasts).
• Brad responds: Excellence is in practicing a craft, not just finishing a project. The rewards of the path surpass the badge of achievement.

12. The Healthy Role of Obsession

Timestamps: 35:56–37:15

• Clinical “obsession” (compulsive, negative outcomes) vs. “harmonious passion” (deep care under control).
• Healthy obsession: Let it drive you, but don’t fuse your entire identity to achievement or risk fragility and burnout.

13. The Goal Shapes the Person

Timestamps: 39:45–42:16

• “The things you work on work on you.” Ambitious pursuits change your character, not just your resume.

  “Deadlifting £550 is also working on me. It’s teaching me about setbacks, about resilience, about facing my fears...” (Brad, 39:59)

• Derek compares his own changes in thought patterns—from Twitter brevity to rich literary styles—based on what he reads.
• Beware: if you choose thoughtless or toxic goals, those will shape you, too.

14. Disappointment, Failure, and Satisfaction

Timestamps: 44:00–49:28

• Brad’s “48-hour rule”: Allow time to mourn failure—or celebrate success—but always return to the work.

  “Failure sucks. It’s also inevitable. Keep going.” (Brad, 44:14)

• David Whyte (poet): “The things that you care about are the things that break your heart.”
• Derek: “Valleys should be as sharp as mountaintops”—don’t wallow too long in failure or race too quickly through success.
• Alternative to self-protection through apathy: risk heartbreak for a shot at real satisfaction and meaning.

15. Happiness vs. Satisfaction

Timestamps: 47:00–49:28

• Brad distinguishes between happiness (fleeting, elusive) and satisfaction (deeper, more enduring).

  “When I’m most satisfied, it’s when I’m coaching my son or my daughter's sports teams...I just feel satisfied. I feel situated.” (Brad, 48:51)

• Satisfaction emerges from being deeply engaged and present, not from chasing momentary “happy” highs.

Notable Quotes

• On the “machine” of metrics:
  “Make number go up. It might as well be the four-word mantra of the modern world.” — Derek (02:01)

• On pseudo-excellence & rituals:
  “If those individuals are great at anything, what they're great at is attracting attention on the Internet.” — Brad (11:11)

• On excellence vs. success:
  “If you set out to get rich by making the world a better place, but you become a billionaire by subverting the law, you're successful. You're immoral, but successful.” — Derek (19:41)

• On the “arrival fallacy”:
  “If you think that by achieving that success, then you're going to be content, then you're going to be happy...you will be rudely assuaged of that assumption.” — Brad (22:53)

• On satisfaction:
  “I am increasingly less concerned with happiness in my own life as I am with satisfaction. To me, happiness is very ephemeral. It comes and it goes. The more that I try to be happy, the less happy that I am.” — Brad (47:14)

Memorable Moments

• Brad recounts “not even being able to think while pumping gas” due to intrusive digital ads (06:10), illustrating the omnipresence of external interruptions.
• The “deadlifter’s pinky toe”: Lane Norton’s curiosity and years-long progress as a metaphor for lifelong incremental mastery (30:33).
• Derek’s fiction vs. Twitter reading experiment highlights how our inputs (and pursuits) shape our thought patterns (41:00+).
• Brad’s 48-hour rule for processing both success and failure gives a pragmatic tool for emotional resilience (44:13).

Conclusion

This episode is a compelling, candid exploration of genuine excellence—including why we are lured into “sh*tty flow” and metric-driven grifts, what it means to pursue mastery in values-driven ways, and how to find satisfaction in the long slog of effort and improvement. Through tangible stories, ancient philosophy, and contemporary critique, Derek Thompson and Brad Stulberg offer a clearer, more humane path—one rooted in curiosity, craft, and choosing the right “mountains” to climb.