Podcast Summary

Podcast: Plain English with Derek Thompson
Episode: The American Math Crisis
Date: November 21, 2025
Host: Derek Thompson
Guests:

• Rose Horowitz, The Atlantic
• Kelsey Piper, The Argument
• Joshua Goodman, Professor at Boston University

Overview

This episode confronts the declining state of math achievement in America, prompted by a shocking report from UC San Diego revealing a surge in college freshmen requiring remedial math—despite many earning top high-school grades. Host Derek Thompson brings together education writers Rose Horowitz and Kelsey Piper, and education economist Joshua Goodman, to dissect the roots of this so-called "American Math Crisis", examining trends in policy, technology, culture, and grade inflation. The conversation also explores possible paths forward, referencing success stories in education reform.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The UC San Diego Bombshell: What Happened?

[05:46–07:02]

• UCSD saw a thirty-fold increase in students needing remedial math—many needing elementary or middle school level classes, not just high school remediation.
• These underprepared students had solid high school math grades, indicating a disconnection between grades and actual skill.
• Quote (Kelsey Piper, 06:25):

  “High schools were awarding these kids top scores, while in fact, they did not have even elementary school math down.”

2. The Crisis Is Widespread

[07:02–08:14]

• While UCSD is an extreme case, most colleges report growing numbers of ill-prepared students.
• Examples like George Mason University highlight how the crisis is affecting even calculus-bound students.
• Quote (Rose Horowitz, 07:18):

  “Almost all [colleges] said students were arriving with less math preparation… This is not as extreme as UCSD, but most are already seeing it, or will soon.”

3. The Historical Shift: From Rising to Declining Achievement

[09:06–10:34]

• U.S. math scores rose from the late 1990s to 2013 amid high stakes, federal accountability-based education policy (e.g., No Child Left Behind).
• A shift in philosophy weakened accountability (waivers, then the Every Student Succeeds Act) and correlates with a declining trend in test scores.
• Other factors: increased phone and social media use.
• Quote (Josh Goodman, 10:04):

  “From the late 1990s to about 2013, test scores...were rising very steadily...Then we saw a long decline.”

4. Screens and International Perspectives

[12:22–13:45]

• The decline is not U.S.-specific; it is mirrored across developed countries.
• Growing evidence implicates widespread phone usage and screens as a global distractor.
• Quote (Rose Horowitz, 12:49):

  “Achievement has been declining across high-income countries...given how broadly these changes are occurring, it could be the phones.”

5. Grade Inflation and Achievement Deflation

[14:44–17:44]

• Grade inflation is a long-term trend, but the break between grades and real achievement has widened sharply.
• Removal of standardized testing (SAT/ACT) as a college entry requirement gave grades outsized importance and little external check.
• Teachers face institutional pressure to award higher grades for the sake of students’ opportunities—even when those grades are unearned.
• Quote (Kelsey Piper, 16:42):

  “No one wants to be a jerk. But then you have kids going to college who are not remotely at the level they need to be at.”

6. The Debate over Standardized Testing

[17:44–24:24]

• The elimination (or deemphasis) of SAT, ACT, and AP test importance was partly in response to equity concerns—these scores often reflect and reveal gaps by income and race.
• Critics argue that tossing out the “thermometers” (standardized tests) doesn’t address the underlying “illness” (achievement gaps).
• Quote (Josh Goodman, 20:17):

  “Let’s…say, if you have a fever, the way to solve it is to get rid of the thermometer. That doesn’t seem to be the way I’d want a medical practice to operate...”

7. Accountability Versus Equity

[26:28–32:44]

• Good intentions—like lowering standards to help students—have led to worse outcomes; “the road to grade inflation hell was paved with good intentions.”
• Cultural expectations for high grades are now entrenched.
• Quote (Derek Thompson, 28:15):

  “There’s almost a cultural expectation…that it’s harmless to demand higher grades. It’s just easier for everybody if we let grades rise and rise.”

8. The Mississippi Miracle: Success Story

[29:41–32:44]

• Mississippi achieved major gains in 4th-grade reading scores through:
  • Rigorous phonics-based instruction
  • Strong curriculum and teacher training
  • Mandatory reading proficiency for grade promotion (“real accountability with teeth”)
• It’s not just a test; it’s an entire system focused on measurable achievement.
• Quote (Kelsey Piper, 31:54):

  “The fact of that test…is the countervailing pressure that we were just talking about. The teachers don’t have the option of being nice. They can’t waive that test. This mean old state is saying: you have to pass...”

9. Political, Policy, and Cultural Tensions

[35:28–37:02]

• The decline in achievement is sometimes attributed to “left” policies lowering standards under the banner of equity and to unions resisting accountability.
• The challenge: combine accountability with real, effective supports for teachers and students to meet higher expectations.

10. AI, Future Skills, and the Case for Math

[37:02–39:51]

• Even as humans’ math skills lag and AI becomes more mathematically capable, society still expects people to have a base numeracy.
• Danger in “deskilling” ourselves by relying too much on technology.

11. Pushback: Is “Accountability” Always Good?

[39:51–42:48]

• The guests recognize the failures of past accountability regimes that penalized teachers without regard for student starting point or individual growth.
• Emphasize need for accountability systems that recognize student progress, not just endpoints.

12. The Role of DEI and Teacher Unions

[42:48–46:20]

• Conservative critics blame DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) and teachers unions for eliminating standardized tests and enforcing grade inflation.
• Goodman and Piper say equity concerns are real and need thoughtful rather than reactionary policy responses.
• Quote (Josh Goodman, 44:13):

  “Equity concerns and teachers unions are certainly a big part of the story…The challenge is making the affirmative case for designing those things well.”

13. The “Grading Knob” vs. “Achievement Knob” Metaphor

[48:10–51:01]

• The culture of “no mean grades” is co-created by parents, teachers, students, and institutions.
• The solution will require broad cultural and systemic change—accountability paired with experimentation and genuinely supportive policies.
• Quote (Derek Thompson, 48:14):

  “We want to make students smarter. But raising achievement is hard, and raising grades is easy... So we've defaulted to the proxy.”

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Time | Speaker | Quote | | ------- | ------------ | ----- | | 06:25 | Kelsey Piper | “High schools were awarding these kids top scores, while in fact, they did not have even elementary school math down.” | | 10:04 | Josh Goodman | “From the late 1990s to about 2013, test scores...were rising very steadily...Then we saw a long decline.” | | 12:49 | Rose Horowitz| “Achievement has been declining across high-income countries...given how broadly these changes are occurring, it could be the phones.” | | 16:42 | Kelsey Piper | “No one wants to be a jerk. But then you have kids going to college who are not remotely at the level they need to be at.” | | 20:17 | Josh Goodman | “Let’s…say, if you have a fever, the way to solve it is to get rid of the thermometer. That doesn’t seem to be the way I’d want a medical practice to operate...” | | 26:28 | Rose Horowitz| “The road to grade inflation hell was paved with good intentions.” | | 28:15 | Derek Thompson| “There’s almost a cultural expectation…that it’s harmless to demand higher grades.” | | 31:54 | Kelsey Piper | “The fact of that test…is the countervailing pressure that we were just talking about. The teachers don’t have the option of being nice. They can’t waive that test.” | | 48:14 | Derek Thompson| “We want to make students smarter. But raising achievement is hard, and raising grades is easy... So we've defaulted to the proxy.” |

Important Segments & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | | ------------ | -------------------| | 05:46–07:02 | UCSD remedial math report, implications | | 09:06–10:34 | Context: U.S. test scores rising/falling, role of policy | | 12:22–13:45 | Is this an international trend? Role of screens | | 14:44–17:44 | Grade inflation, removal of standardized tests, breakdown in grading’s meaning | | 20:31–24:24 | Arguments for and against SAT/ACT, equity vs. measurement | | 29:41–32:44 | The “Mississippi Miracle”—what works in education reform | | 35:28–37:02 | Political valence: standards as “mean,” accountability as partisan | | 37:02–38:49 | Human skills vs. AI/automation in math | | 39:51–42:48 | Limitations and misapplications of accountability | | 42:48–46:20 | DEI, teacher unions, and education policy debate | | 48:10–51:01 | Cultural shift, “grading knob” vs. “achievement knob” |

Tone and Language

The conversation balances urgent concern with measured analysis, often wry, candid, and occasionally self-critical. Derek Thompson and his guests are clear, direct, and committed to plain-speaking, frequently using analogies to illustrate subtle systemic issues.

Summary for Non-Listeners

This episode explores why more American college students are unprepared for basic math, detailing causes ranging from weakened accountability and grade inflation to international trends likely caused by the digital revolution (phones/screens). The guests trace the impact of relaxing standardized testing requirements, driven by well-meaning but ultimately counterproductive efforts for educational equity. They discuss the Mississippi success story as evidence that focused reform can work, but acknowledge that deep-rooted cultural and policy inertia mean that fixing the “achievement gap” is a generational project. All agree: turning up the grades knob is not a substitute for raising actual learning, and the challenge ahead will require honesty, accountability, better-designed policy, and collective cultural will.