A new experiment in remote work … from the inside

Summary

Planet Money – "A New Experiment in Remote Work … from the Inside"

Episode Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Sarah Gonzalez (NPR)
Guest Contributor: Susan Sharon (Maine Public Radio)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores a groundbreaking experiment taking place inside Maine's prisons: allowing incarcerated people to hold fully remote jobs for outside companies, earning market-rate wages—from within prison walls. The podcast traces the origin of the program, profiles two incarcerated remote workers, discusses the practicalities and ethics from multiple perspectives, and considers the broader implications for labor, prison reform, and economics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction to the Remote Work Pilot

• Sarah Gonzalez introduces the story, centering on Darlene George, who coordinates grants at a Maine health center—all while working remotely from her prison room, not a typical prison role.
  • “Darlene is a grants program coordinator at a local health center in Maine.” (00:39)
  • Darlene is serving a 40-year sentence for murder, but works a normal salaried, full-time job—her colleagues know about her incarceration.
• On her work ethic:
  • “If I have a project and it entails me working on a Saturday or Sunday, guess what? I’m doing it. That’s my job.” – Darlene George (01:04)

2. Expanding Opportunities Beyond Prison Labor

• The hosts emphasize this isn’t the traditional, extremely low-paid prison labor.
  • “Darlene doesn’t work for free like prisoners do in seven states… She’s not paid minimum wage.” (03:23)
  • Darlene and colleagues keep pay private to avoid tension inside, but the pay is enough to be significant.
• Another remote worker, Preston Thorpe, shares:
  • “It’s definitely like what you’d expect to see for a senior level software engineer in the US... Yeah, I make six figures.” – Preston Thorpe (04:22–04:39)

3. How the Program Started – The Pandemic Pivot

• Susan Sharon explains the pandemic forced educational programs for incarcerated people online. That sparked the idea: if prisoners can take classes remotely, why not do real work remotely too?
  • “The remote work is an outgrowth of prison education.” – Susan Sharon (06:33)
• Since inception, only about 45 people have landed such jobs, due to high barriers.

4. Case Study: Preston Thorpe, Software Engineer

• Preston’s journey:
  • Incarcerated for 20+ years (for distributing a powerful opioid), he excelled at coding and made notable open source contributions from prison.
  • Caught the eye of Glauber Costa, CEO of Turso, after Preston became a top contributor to a major open-source database project.
    • “When I read his profile, I couldn’t believe it was real.” – Glauber Costa (09:56)
  • Despite initial doubts about hiring from prison, Turso navigated compliance and background checks (which, ironically, came back cleaner than Glauber's due to length of incarceration).
    • "Preston is actually our cleanest background check." – Glauber Costa (11:42)
  • Preston was hired at market rates and is a fully integrated (remote) team member.

5. Employer Perspectives and Public Perception

• Costa faced criticism for hiring a prisoner:
  • “We were accused…of just exploiting prison labor. Look, Preston is paid market rates.” – Glauber Costa (12:22)
• On Preston’s extraordinary output:
  • “He has a lot of free time…and this will to do better.” – Glauber Costa (12:32)

6. What Do Incarcerated Workers Do with Their Earnings?

• Preston even bought a house from prison—across from his parents—hoping to live there when released.
  • “It’s a manufactured home…but yeah, it’s across the street from my parents.” – Preston Thorpe (13:16)

7. Prison System Perspective – Commissioner Randall Liberty

• Commissioner Liberty (whose father was formerly incarcerated and whom he once guarded) explained the economics and policy decisions behind the program.
  • Liberty allows remote work regardless of crime severity, focusing on good behavior and education.
  • Personal story:
    • “Not only…was he incarcerated, but I guarded him…as an officer, I was in the same unit.” – Randall Liberty (16:31)
• Earnings Management:
  • Inmates’ earnings are managed by the Department of Corrections, which disburses payments upon request (e.g., for family tuition, church tithing, car repairs for relatives).
  • Inside, their money can buy better “snacks, better food…, game station, TV, all the best snacks.” – Sarah Gonzalez (18:49)

8. Fee Structure and Economic Impact

• Wages are subject to prioritized deductions:

  • 25% to victim restitution
  • 25% to court fees/fines
  • Taxes and child support as applicable
  • 10% for room and board (to the prison)
  • 10% to a mandatory savings account
  • Remaining money for personal use (19:50–20:59)

• Last year, remote workers in Maine’s prisons earned ~$400,000 (gross); full-timers made $40K–$90K+ (21:18).

• Some even access benefits: health, retirement, paid time off.

• On criticisms that this could fuel state incentives for mass incarceration:

  • “Not on my watch." – Randall Liberty (24:11)
  • Compared with Alabama, which seizes 40% of prison labor earnings ($450 million annually), creating perverse incentives to keep people incarcerated and working.

9. Potential for Expansion and Future Concerns

• Liberty acknowledges the danger of fee hikes under future leadership:
  • "That's the challenge. I have 14 months…” – Randall Liberty, on the uncertainty post-tenure (25:53)
  • The program still serves a fraction of Maine’s incarcerated population (27 people currently), usually those with special skills or degrees.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “We don’t call them cells. We just call them our rooms.” – Darlene George (01:45)
• “Now I feel like my life has a purpose…” – Preston Thorpe (07:45)
• “He doesn’t have a parking ticket. He does not.” – Glauber Costa, on Preston’s background check (11:42)
• “I have individuals that are receiving health care for their families while they're incarcerated.” – Randall Liberty (21:18)
• “If you’re a fiscal conservative, do you have any opposition to Preston or anyone else, you know... paying for their families, feeding their children, paying their mortgages, or would you rather have them be on the state?” – Randall Liberty (21:34)
• “We know that the people in our career are there for mental health issues, for substance use disorder, poverty, neglect, trauma, learning disabilities. …those are not the people who should balance [the budget] on their backs.” – Randall Liberty (24:11)
• “When we have 65% of individuals returning to custody, we need to do better. In Maine, we currently have a 21% return to custody rate. This works.” – Randall Liberty (26:03)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:12 – Darlene George introduces herself and her unusual employment status
• 01:45 – Darlene describes her remote work setup from prison ("our rooms")
• 02:00 – Darlene reveals her sentence and new work arrangement
• 04:22–04:41 – Preston Thorpe confirms he makes a senior software engineer's salary (six figures)
• 06:33 – The origins of remote work in prisons (pandemic education shift)
• 09:44 – Glauber Costa (CEO) discovers Preston is in prison
• 11:42 – Preston’s background check and hiring at Turso
• 13:16 – Preston buys a home while incarcerated
• 14:27 – Commissioner Randall Liberty details the policy’s development
• 16:31 – Liberty recounts guarding his own father in prison
• 19:50–20:59 – Breakdown of income deductions and disbursements
• 21:18 – Discussion of full benefits for incarcerated workers
• 24:11 – Addressing concerns about perverse incentives and raising fees
• 25:53 – Liberty on future risks post-tenure
• 26:03 – Discussion of recidivism rates in Maine vs. national average

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Tone and Takeaway

Maintaining Planet Money’s approachable, curious, and nuanced style, the episode sheds light on the real economic and human complexities of “fair wage” remote work for people in prison. It challenges assumptions about prison labor, explores policy decisions with empathy and self-awareness, and surfaces potential pitfalls as the program grows elsewhere.

Final thought:
This experiment provides new dignity, skills, and resources to a small group of incarcerated people—while spotlighting how economic incentives can reshape prisons for good or ill, depending on public oversight, policy design, and political will.

Transcript

[Sarah Gonzalez]

This is Planet Money from npr.

[Susan Sharon]

Well, tell me, who is this Darlene George and how did she make all this stuff happen?

[Darlene George]

Oh, my God. Well, Darlene George is a regular young lady from Brooklyn, New York.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Darlene George is talking to Susan Sharon, a local public radio reporter at Maine Public Radio who is interviewed Darlene recently. How old are you?

[Darlene George]

I'll tell you that off the record.

[Susan Sharon]

Oh, well, I'll tell you too. Okay, thanks.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Susan is talking to Darlene because Darlene has kind of a remarkable work situation right now. Darlene is a grants program coordinator at a local health center in Maine.

[Darlene George]

So I monitor, scout and look for grants, making sure we stay within regulations guidelines.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Of each grant, she gets paid a salary. She's not hourly, but she generally tries to work 7 to 5 ish.

[Darlene George]

But if I am needed before the fact, I'm there. If I'm needed after the fact, I'm there. If I have a project I'm working on and it entails me working on a Saturday or Sunday, guess what? I'm doing it. That's my job.

[Susan Sharon]

Is it hard to do your job even, you know, with the distractions and the noise around you and that sort of thing?

[Darlene George]

Well, what I will say is that I couldn't be more supported as if I was on the outside. The outside this September would make two years. I've been working completely full time.

[Susan Sharon]

From your cell?

[Darlene George]

Yep. From my. Yeah, well, we don't call them cells. We just call them our rooms.

[Randall Liberty]

From your rooms.

[Darlene George]

Right. Because we don't have like slamming doors.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Darlene works remotely from prison. She is currently incarcerated.

[Darlene George]

I have a 40 year sentence. I have been in here for 16 years and I think my earliest release date is in 2040. 2040. So with good time, I'm quite sure that it'll dwindle down a little bit.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Darlene is serving 40 years for murder. And Darlene's job, it is not a prison job, like, you know, working in the prison library, though she has done that too. She works for a company on the outside, a regular non prison company.

[Susan Sharon]

Do your colleagues that you interact with at the job, do they know that.

[Darlene George]

You'Re absolutely, absolutely 100%. Yes, they do.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Darlene does her job remotely from the main correctional center, where there may not be a lot of slamming doors, but there are still prison guards and prisoners and all the regular prison roles.

[Darlene George]

I literally, I work from my room, so I have all my equipment in my room. There's a sign that I put out on the thing that lets people know I'm zooming I'm in meetings. Please don't. You know, don't knock. Like, of course, if they do their checks, they walk by, they know exactly what I'm doing. They can see me. I can see them.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And now Darlene's pay in this job, it is not the like 63 cents per hour you get for working as a prison cook or the $7 an hour that incarcerated people get for fighting active fires in California. Darlene doesn't work for free like prisoners do in seven states. She's not paid minimum wage.

[Susan Sharon]

Can I ask you, how much do you earn for your job? Are you comfortable telling me that?

[Darlene George]

I'll tell you off the record because I don't want the people in the unit to feel some type of way. So I'll definitely tell you.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Darlene gets paid enough that she would rather the other people in the prison not find out how much. Exactly. And Darlene is not the only pretty well paid remote worker behind bars in Maine.

[Preston Thorpe]

My name is Preston Thorpe.

[Susan Sharon]

Can you share anything about what you're getting paid?

[Preston Thorpe]

I prefer to keep my salary private, but I can say that it's definitely like what you would expect to see for a senior level software Engineer in the U.S. can I say that you're.

[Susan Sharon]

Making into the six figures? Is that accurate?

[Preston Thorpe]

Yeah.

[Susan Sharon]

Okay. Is that okay to report?

[Preston Thorpe]

Yeah, that's okay.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah. He makes six figures. Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Sarah Gonzalez. And today on the show we have this great reporting from Maine Public Radio's Susan Sharon about a new experiment in prisons. Remote jobs paying fair market wages. Maine was the first to do it and three other states have followed. So today how this kind of standard thing of having a job and getting a paycheck works in a restricted place like prison, what it's like for the workers, what it's like for the employers who choose to hire them, and how the prison system is handling this new prison economy that has emerged. Susan, thank you so much for joining us for sharing the story with us.

[Susan Sharon]

Well, thank you so much for your interest in the story and for having me.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And you did the thing that we love at Planet Money, which is you followed the whole thread.

[Susan Sharon]

Thank you.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Such great reporting. Susan Sharon is the local public radio reporter in Maine who spent time in prisons interviewing remote workers and the people who choose to hire them while they're incarcerated. And she says this whole remote work thing all started because of the pandemic.

[Susan Sharon]

The growth of remote work happened kind of as a result of COVID Some.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

People in prison were taking college classes.

[Susan Sharon]

The Educational classes they were taking suddenly moved online. And that sparked this idea.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

It sparked this idea that maybe incarcerated people enrolled in college could, you know, take laptops into their cells with them and do their college classes online like all the other students in the world on the outside were doing, right? And things kind of expanded from there.

[Susan Sharon]

The remote work is an outgrowth of prison education.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

There are people in Maine prisons that have gotten their bachelor's degrees, master's.

[Susan Sharon]

I think there are several PhD candidates now. So what are you going to do with these people? It's like, yes, they get their education, but some of them may be serving several years. So what's next? Well, how about some better work opportunities?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

The thinking was kind of like, if a person in prison is allowed to have a laptop in their cells all day and night to do homework and take online classes, couldn't they have a laptop in their cells to do real outside world jobs, too, and get real outside world wages? Now, not that many people have gotten this opportunity. In all, since this whole thing started, just 45 people in main prisons have been able to get remote jobs.

[Preston Thorpe]

Typically, you would not get a job because you're incarcerated.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So Preston Thorpe is the one making six figures, which, by the way, is double what the corrections officers who guard him make. And it's been a game changer for Preston. He said it's hard enough to get a job when you have a criminal record, let alone while you're still inside.

[Preston Thorpe]

And now I feel like my life has a purpose, like there's no situation right now that would cause me to do something where I would risk losing, like my job, my computer.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Preston is 33 years old, and he told Susan Sharon that he's always been a computer guy, a computer nerd. He said, since he was 13 years old. It's kind of what got him in trouble. Later in life.

[Susan Sharon]

He talked to me about buying drugs on the dark web and selling them. And I think the second time he was convicted because he had a powerful synthetic opioid, much more deadly than fentanyl, capable of killing lots of people.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Preston is about nine years into his 20ish year sentence. He used to be in a different prison in a different state. And he says he got in a lot of trouble there. So much so that they transferred him to Maine, like, we need this person out of our custody. And when he got to Maine, Preston started seeing possibilities. School, picking up, coding again. And he did super well. So well, no issues. And eventually he got a remote job as a lead principal engineer for this nonprofit that Pushes for education in prisons. And because Preston had a laptop, you know, in his cell all day and all night that he could use for certain approved things, Preston started contributing to this big open source coding project. Basically, this company was going to attempt to rewrite this database called SQLite in. In Preston's favorite programming language.

[Preston Thorpe]

Those that understand what that is like, will understand.

[Darlene George]

Right?

[Preston Thorpe]

It's the most prevalent database on the planet. It's on every cell phone, every computer.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Anyone could contribute to this open source project. And Preston became a top contributor over and over again.

[Glauber Costa]

Preston was one of around four or five people who was in this very exclusive category of people who both started, stayed, and did very high quality work.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Glauber Costa is the CEO of Turso, which was the company attempting this big rewrite. And when he saw what Preston was contributing, he was like, who is this Preston dude? So he looks him up on GitHub.

[Glauber Costa]

And that's how we found out. Hold on a minute. This guy is in prison. So eye popping for sure. When I read his profile, I couldn't believe it was real. I mean, I couldn't believe it was real. And then two weeks later, I just sent him a message.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And Glauber assumed that communication with Preston would be impossible. But it turned out that Preston could do video calls.

[Glauber Costa]

I then find out that he's part of a program that would allow him to have a job, even in prison. Now I don't offer him anything. It's one of those things where, like, you don't want to date your friend because you're afraid of destroying the friendship. So I leave him be.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

But over time, all the engineers at Turso were like, we need to hire Preston. When can we hire Preston? And eventually, Glauber's like, you know what? Yeah.

[Glauber Costa]

We knew the prison thing was the only thing stopping us. And when I found out that we could actually work around it. So look, why wait? Why wait? Let's just do it now.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Glauber actually opened a position for Preston specifically. But there was one big hurdle to clear. Glauber's company, Turso, is a tech company. They deal with confidential data. So they have all these data security compliance rules. So Preston had to pass a background check.

[Glauber Costa]

This would be the hardest part of the process. This is like, okay, we're going to run a background check on Preston, and obviously it will come. You know, he's in prison, he's done something.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Klaubers asking their security consultants, like, how do I work around this?

[Glauber Costa]

I'm about to hire a guy in prison. Said, you're about to what? I go, I'm about to hire a person in prison. We're going to run a background check. What do we do? Turns out that the background check only checks the last seven years.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And Preston has been in prison for nine years.

[Glauber Costa]

So he is actually our cleanest background check. He doesn't have a parking ticket. And his background check is cleaner than mine out of the fact that, you know, I have a parking ticket. He does not.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So Preston is now a senior level software engineer at terso. And Glauber has gotten a lot of pushback for hiring Preston at. At all over anyone else.

[Glauber Costa]

Oh, this is a job that could have been given to another person in America. And for me, it's like, look, I'm not giving a job to a person like that. I actually opened the position for Preston. Right.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

People have accused Glauber of turning to prison labor because it must be cheap.

[Glauber Costa]

We were accused the other day of just exploiting prison labor. So that means they're exploiting. Look, Preston is paid market rates.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah. But Preston does put in a lot of hours.

[Glauber Costa]

The two things that he has that other software developers don't have. One of them, a lot of free time. Right. Because he has no other form of entertainment. And I think the other thing that he has that is very fantastic is like this will to do better.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Preston says he works constantly, but it is self imposed.

[Preston Thorpe]

I kind of made a promise to myself that. That I would take advantage of, you know, of every hour that I had here and started looking at it like an opportunity to make something of myself.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And Preston has done something kind of remarkable with some of his earnings. He bought a house from prison.

[Randall Liberty]

I did.

[Preston Thorpe]

Yeah. It's not super glamorous.

[Unidentified Sponsor Voice]

Right.

[Preston Thorpe]

It's a manufactured home, but yeah. It's across the street from my parents. So when I'm able to get out, I should be able to live across the street with my family.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

After the break. What people in prison get to spend their salary on, on the inside. And of course, what they have to spend it on. There's a.

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[Sarah Gonzalez]

All right. Will you say Your name and title for me?

[Randall Liberty]

Sure. Randall Liberty, Commissioner of the Maine Department of Corrections.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Liberty?

[Randall Liberty]

Yes. Really?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Really? I mean, like, I run prisons and my last name is Freedom, and I.

[Randall Liberty]

Was a soldier, too, and. Yeah, so this. That's a topic of discussion sometimes.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Are you over it? Yeah. Okay, let's move on. Randall Liberty runs prisons in Maine, and it was his decision to allow incarcerated people to have remote jobs. Susan Sharon also spoke with Randall, but we called him up ourselves, too, to talk about the economics here. Now, Randall says remote work all started when this college in Maine called Colby College reached out to Randall.

[Randall Liberty]

They asked me if one of my residents that was incarcerated at the main state prison could be an adjunct professor from the prison.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

This person was getting his master's degree. He was a hospice worker working with people who were dying in prison. He was a canine trainer. He was discipline free. And so after some consideration, Randall allowed it. Yeah. What was this inmate's name?

[Randall Liberty]

This is.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Do you not like to say?

[Randall Liberty]

Well, the challenge with that is there are victims, and it was a serious crime. We got a 40 year bid. It was a home invasion. And serious bodily injury happened to a young person and to her parent, like.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

With a gun, machete. Okay.

[Randall Liberty]

That's why we don't talk about it.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Randall Liberty]

And that's one of the challenges with this, right?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah. Randall has decided that the opportunity to do remote work is on the table for anyone, regardless of how serious their crime is, as long as they have no issues in prison and have at least a ged, maybe. A backstory to note here is that before Randall was a soldier and a sheriff and a prison commissioner, Randall grew up with a dad who was in and out of prison for burglaries, arsons, other things.

[Randall Liberty]

As a result, we all suffered. I mean, we grew up in a. In a very difficult environment, my brothers and I.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So Randall has personal experience with incarceration and visiting his dad in prison in Maine.

[Randall Liberty]

Not only did I was he incarcerated, but I guarded him at Somerset County Jail for three months.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

You were like the corrections officer?

[Randall Liberty]

I was the corrections officer. I was 21 years old and not. I was in the same jail with him as an officer. I was in the same unit. So I'd go upstairs and there were 15 people in that unit, and dad was there, and it'd be, good morning, dad. Good morning, Randy.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

You know, could you hug him?

[Randall Liberty]

I wouldn't hug him because it wouldn't be appropriate, you know, but it was always good small talk, like in secret, like one time. No, no, no, no.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

You're a rule follower, Randy.

[Randall Liberty]

Have to be, you know, and frankly, there was no training at the time. And so I would literally ask him, what do I do now? And he'd say, it's time for count. And I'd say, okay, line up for count. I know it's ridiculous.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Your father, son.

[Randall Liberty]

That's my story, you know.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Randall is the first to say that those experiences shaped the kind of prison commissioner he ended up becoming. And in thinking about allowing remote work in prison, Randall thought about how this would affect the victims of crimes if there were victims involved. He thought about how it could affect the people incarcerated, the, the people they left on the outside, like their children, their aging parents, and how this whole new prison economy would even work. The first person to get this opportunity, the adjunct professor, ended up making $27,000.

[Randall Liberty]

And he had donated $1,000 to his local church in tithing in the community. He paid for brakes for his mother so she could get the car inspected. He paid for tuition for his nephew to go to college.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

How do you know how he spends his money? Do you have access to his bank account?

[Randall Liberty]

Yes. All monies that are earned by residents, they all go to their internal accounts. At the Maine Department of Corrections?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah, the employer does a direct deposit to not the employee, but to the Department of Corrections. So if they want to use their money, they put in a request to the finance department at the Department of Corrections saying, like, I want to buy a house, I guess, or pay my child's college tuition. And then a check is sent out to the outside. It can take like a week to release the money. Now, in terms of how people can use the money inside prison, they can't buy access to much except better snacks, better food in their cells, few other perks. Can they buy like, you know, a tv?

[Randall Liberty]

Yes, they can buy a game station. They can buy, you know, any of those sorts of things.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So Preston Thorpe, who's making six figures, is his cell just like game console tv, all the best snacks?

[Randall Liberty]

Preston would certainly have those things in his cell, in his room, and he has a laptop.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And Randall really gets pushback over all of this. Some people say that prison should be punitive, that people shouldn't get these perks or all this money to those tougher on crime people. Randall says, well, what if they owe victims money?

[Randall Liberty]

There are times when somebody that has an addiction issue has done 30 or 40 burglaries before they're caught, and they owe $100,000 in restitution to the victims of crime. If somebody's doing the time, and they have the opportunity to do remote work and make fair market wages, they can pay that debt down.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Victim restitution. If a person in prison has a remote job, they need to pay off whatever debt they owe to victims. Randall made a list of priorities for where the money was going to go. And victim restitution is number one. There's also court fees and fines. So usually when people all over the country are arrested and put in jail or prison, when they walk out, they walk out with a bill they might have to pay for. The stenographer, the judge, the arrest itself. If they have a job, they can chip away at that debt while they're still in prison. 25% of their salary goes to victim restitution. And once that's paid off, then 25% goes to court fees and fines.

[Randall Liberty]

You know, so we don't capture the whole paycheck and make it a frustrating experience for them.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

If people have children and owe any child support that comes out of their paycheck too, automatically before it even gets into the hands of the Department of Corrections. Same with all the state and federal taxes. Taxes come out and then they also pay 10% of their salary to room and board, and then 10% goes to like a savings account for when they get out.

[Randall Liberty]

And then the remaining money sits in the account of the resident to do as they wish.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Last year, Randall says people working remote jobs behind bars earned about $400,000. That's gross income. The Department of Corrections says full time workers earned between $40,000 a year to more, more than $90,000. But then some get a full benefits package too. Medical, dental.

[Randall Liberty]

I have individuals that are receiving health care for their families while they're incarcerated. I have some that have retirement, 401k, tuition reimbursement paid, sick, paid vacation.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Randall feels like he's been really thoughtful about how he's prioritized everything.

[Randall Liberty]

You know, obviously I have to talk to both sides of the aisle and we have to have a conversation about the benefit to the community, the benefit to survivors of crimes, you know, victims of crimes that are owed money. And I say to them, if you're fiscal conservative, do you have any opposition to Preston or anyone else, you know, paying for their families, feeding their children, paying their mortgages, or would you rather have them be on the state?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

On the state? So remember that room and board thing? The Department of corrections takes 10% off everyone's salary. So letting people in prison work generates revenue for the prisons. Some advocates argue that there are too many prison fees and that the state shouldn't take so much of their salary because people are already paying for their crimes with incarceration. Some lawmakers in Maine recently said that they want to study the impact that these fees can have on prisoners. Like, could this new economic model create some weird incentives? Last year, Maine prisons collected about $40,000 in room and board fees off of these remote workers. It's good. It's not, like, phenomenal, right? Or what is it?

[Randall Liberty]

No, but it's a contribution.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Randall had to ask for permission to charge room and board, and the legislature landed on 10%. Can you see a future where so many inmates or residents are doing remote work and people over time go, let's take 20% of their salary, 30%, 40%. Do you think about whether that could happen?

[Randall Liberty]

Yeah, I'm not. You know, it could happen.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

That is what's happening in Alabama, for example. In Alabama, certain people in prison are allowed to leave the prison every day to go to work in person at McDonald's Burger King. And in general, the workers from prison there get like, $7 an hour. But the Alabama Department of Corrections takes 40% of their salary. Alabama makes hundreds of millions of dollars in the cut they take from workers in prison. Actually about $450 million a year. So some people and some economists argue that there is like a half a billion dollar incentive to keep people in prison working and maybe a disincentive to. To grant people parole if they're up for release. So with that context in mind, I'm just curious if, like, for those who might hear this and go, like, I can see a version where, you know, it becomes more, I don't know, exploitative, potentially.

[Randall Liberty]

Not on my watch. You know, not on my watch. We have no interest in balancing the budget on the backs of residents. We know that the people in our career are there for mental health issues, for substance use disorder, poverty, neglect, trauma, learning disabilities. And in my opinion, those are not the people who should balance on their backs.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Okay. There were a couple of bills in the main legislature where the Department of Corrections is asking to increase the fees that you're allowed to charge people in prison who do remote work. Right. So what are just. Okay, do you want to just tell me what the. What you're asking for?

[Randall Liberty]

Yeah. So we currently have no funds for technology.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Okay. Basically, the Department of Corrections asked the legislature to let them charge a fee if people want a laptop in prison.

[Randall Liberty]

We believe that if people have access to remote work, there should be some ability for them to pay for that. Like, we do on the outside, all of us pay our technology fee. Right. And Internet fee.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And what kind of fee are we talking?

[Randall Liberty]

I don't have the bill in front of me, but it's a small amount.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

It's like hundreds of dollars or like $1,000 or multiple.

[Randall Liberty]

No, no, I think it's $10 or something. It's a very small money. Oh, look, a small, very small money.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Well, it could be $10, but it could be up to $35. And this is per month. Okay, so the fees, even in Maine, are growing. But Randall was adamant that his Department of Corrections is not going to tack on a bunch of other new fees for remote workers. That it's just that laptop fee. But what if once you're not the commissioner of the Department of Corrections, like, do you worry about, like, oh, am I opening the door to.

[Randall Liberty]

That's the challenge. I have 14 months.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

In 14 months, a new prison commissioner comes in. See, this is what I mean, Randall. This is what I was talking about when I was like. But then you leave, and then what happens?

[Randall Liberty]

What we try to do is try to create programs and have proof of concept with data. And when we have 65% of individuals returning to custody, we need to do better. You know, the taxpayers need a better return on investment. And in Maine, we currently have a 21% return to custody rate. This works.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Sure. I could see that the next person would say, like, oh, this is working well. We're gonna continue it, but, like, we're gonna charge way more. We're gonna charge what Alabama charges, a 40% fee. And then people walk out with nothing again. And it's like the same thing. Like, that's the. That's the perverse incentive structure that I think about.

[Randall Liberty]

Yeah, so I do get that. I can tell that to people locally here in Maine. And to set that example of maybe a better way of doing corrections. And, you know, for me, it's. What we're doing is consistent with, you know, treating people that are incarcerated with dignity and respect.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Currently, There are just 27 people in Maine prisons with remote jobs. And it tends to be people with degrees like Darlene or unique skills like Preston. So some say Maine will never be like Alabama, where thousands and thousands of prisoners generate revenue for the state because not everyone will have the skills, and not every employer will want to hire people who are incarcerated. However, Randall can see a future where maybe incarcerated people without a super special skill can have a good paying remote job, too, like working at a call center. If you're interested in other episodes about the cost of incarceration, the economics of prisons. We have linked to a bunch of episodes episodes in our show notes. Go check them out and if you're a fan of Planet Money, consider leaving us a review on the podcast app of your choice. Ratings and reviews really help other people find this show. Listener Traven Adventure recently left us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. I'm going to read it now. Travyn wrote. Thank you so much for continuing to host this excellent podcast. I've been a listener to NPR for a long time and thoroughly enjoy them. This podcast is particularly enlightening as well as entertaining. Traven. We love to hear it. Thanks for the nice words. Today's episode of Planet Money was produced by Sam Yellowhorse Kessler, with some reporting help from Vito Emanuel. It was edited by Jess Jiang, Fact Checked by Sierra Juarez, and engineered by Robert Rodriguez with help from Patrick Murray. Our executive producer is Alex Goldmark. Special thanks to Mara Sanchez at Alliance for Higher Education in Prison. And of course, extra special thanks to Susan Sharon for sharing all of her reporting with us. I'm Sarah Gonzalez. This is npr. Thanks for listening.