Cindy Cordes (1:43)

Sending out quality equipment and knowing that it's going to save people lives.

Waylon Wong (1:49)

She'd been at the company since the early 90s, worked her way up, and by 2011, Cindy was the manufacturing lead on the production floor. She oversaw a team of like 40 people.

Cindy Cordes (1:59)

And I had to make sure that they had their job orders for the day, that they had all their materials so that they could make their equipment for the day. And if there was any issues, they would come to me and I would try to solve them.

Mary Childs (2:18)

And one day that year she hears that her company is getting sold.

Cindy Cordes (2:22)

It was like, okay, now what are we going to be getting into?

Waylon Wong (2:26)

The company that's buying her company, kkr, a private equity firm, one of the big ones, which is not always good news.

Mary Childs (2:34)

When you heard that you were getting bought by private equity, were you like, oh, great.

Cindy Cordes (2:39)

Mixed feelings, you know, one big fear is you're like, oh, are they going to take it, you know, and take it overseas, close the company here? You know, you had all those worries, you know, when you have a bigger

Waylon Wong (2:52)

company by you, because private equity's whole thing is they buy companies, try to figure out how to make those companies more profitable and then sell them for more money than they bought them for. And very often the way they make those companies more profitable is by cutting jobs.

Mary Childs (3:08)

But Cindy was in for a more interesting ride than that because she was actually part of a brand new experiment, a large scale experiment conducted by this guy at KKR who had a new idea about how to grow companies. Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Mary Childs.

Waylon Wong (3:27)

And I'm Waylon Wong. Private equity, it's ruined so many things, from nursing homes to toy stores to vet clinics. But today on the show, someone is trying to do private equity a different way.

Mary Childs (3:40)

Will it save all of private equity?

Waylon Wong (3:43)

No.

Mary Childs (3:44)

But maybe this one experiment in private

Waylon Wong (3:46)

equity will lead to more equity.

Mary Childs (3:49)

And maybe Cindy has more coming than she thought.

Sponsor/Promotions Voice (4:05)

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Announcer (4:22)

And the following message comes from Rippling. Tired of using HR systems that feel fragmented and manual? Rippling unifies hr, IT and finance into a single platform to run your business. In as little as 90 seconds, rippling can onboard a new employee, automatically setting up payroll, benefits, devices and corporate cards all from one place. It's a simpler way to run your business. Head to rippling.com money and sign up today. That's R-I P P L-I N G.com money. This message comes from Grainger. For the ones who get it done, Grainger offers the professional grade products you need to get the job done with fast delivery and access to technical product experts ready to help you meet any challenge, call, click grainger.com or just stop by.

Mary Childs (5:13)

The experiment that Cindy Cordes was inadvertently part of began back in 2011. It's the personal project of this guy, Pete Stavros, whose job at KKR is to buy companies, make them more profitable, and then sell them.

Waylon Wong (5:27)

The inspiration for his big experiment comes from his childhood growing up in Chicago, sitting around the dinner table hearing stories about his dad's job at a construction company making roads smooth and flat.

Pete Stavros (5:40)

He operated a road grader for over 40 years and he was often Specified in municipal contracts like Harry Stavros must do the road grading, because if you don't grade a road properly, it won't. It won't drain appropriately and it'll freeze and then crack in the winter.

Mary Childs (5:56)

His dad was in the union eventually became influential, representing the interests of the workers.

Waylon Wong (6:02)

And Pete says there was this structural tension between the union and the company. Workers wanted to work more hours because they were paid by the hour, and employers wanted the work done in fewer hours.

Mary Childs (6:14)

Over the years, the company was kind of winning. It was whittling away paid time, like the time spent driving to a faraway construction site or the time people were grabbing lunch during work. So as Pete remembers it, the company told workers they weren't going to pay for lunchtime anymore. Employees should take an hour unpaid on that one.

Waylon Wong (6:35)

The workers decided finally to fight back. Pete, Pete's dad, took the lead.

Pete Stavros (6:39)

He organized all of the workers and in fact, also the truck drivers who delivered the raw material to pave the road. And so he had that material delivered directly at 12 noon, right at the time the lunch would normally be.

Mary Childs (6:56)

And instead of doing the most expedient thing and unloading the truck when it

Pete Stavros (6:59)

arrived, he would look at his watch and say, what a shame we don't work the lunch hour anymore. And he would send the truck away, and he and his colleagues intentionally ran the job out of material so the

Waylon Wong (7:10)

work site would have to shut down, which would mean the company had to pay late fees to its client, and it would have to pay the workers overtime to try to catch up.

Mary Childs (7:18)

Pete says his dad hated the absurdity.

Pete Stavros (7:21)

My dad would come home and say, can you believe this is what we're doing? You know, we're all adults and this is how we're behaving, as opposed to having the same incentives and all wanting to work together. We have all of these fights over hours.

Waylon Wong (7:32)

Pete remembers his dad being like, there's got to be a better way, some way to align the workers incentives and the companies.

Pete Stavros (7:39)

Why don't we have profit sharing or ownership or some way to get workers on the same side as management, Give workers a chance to get ahead financially and, you know, give the company a reason to start listening to workers. That was where the original inspiration came from, was from my dad.

Mary Childs (7:55)

The original inspiration for what Pete is now doing from his seat at kkr in the big bad world of private equity, sharing ownership with workers, which is not normal. The normal private equity move is to buy companies, often borrowing a lot to do it, and then try to make the companies More profitable so they can sell them at a profit.

Waylon Wong (8:16)

As the private equity industry has grown over time, the effects of the industry have become more apparent.

Mary Childs (8:22)

Like academic research has shown that when private equity buys a company, it can bring in better management practices or save costs, and it does increase productivity.

Waylon Wong (8:33)

But private equity ownership can lead to a degradation in the quality of the product, which becomes especially salient when the product is like health care or nursing homes. And it does result in fewer jobs overall. The people who lose those jobs often make less money in their next job or never find another one, which, of course, becomes very expensive for society.

Mary Childs (8:55)

And as private equity has grown over the last couple decades and. And bought more and more companies that touch everyday people's lives, scrutiny of it and a mainstream cultural distaste has grown, too.

Waylon Wong (9:06)

By the time Pete had found his way to private equity, he was still thinking about his dad's ideas of giving workers equity. He'd even done a little research on it in business school.

Mary Childs (9:16)

So now he's in charge of this team at kkr, and they give partners plenty of freedom. And he's like, we kind of get to pick what companies to buy and what to do with them. So I kind of have an opportunity here. I should try to see if I can do my dad's thing, making workers part owners in their own companies.

Pete Stavros (9:34)

It's such an opportunity to try new approaches, because we can. It's almost like a laboratory.

Mary Childs (9:41)

So his big experiment is about trying different ways to get the workers at those companies more bought in, more involved.

Waylon Wong (9:48)

And he suspects to some degree, there's a business case for this, too. Like, if workers have ownership in their company, they might find. Feel ownership as well. They might work a little harder, get more training, stay more engaged. So he decides to give it a go.

Mary Childs (10:03)

And Cindy Cordes's company, Capital Safety, where they made harnesses. That is Pete's first try, the first in this experiment.

Waylon Wong (10:10)

So Cindy remembers when KKR bought the company, the company's management told her and all the other workers that the plant in Red Wing, Minnesota, would stay open and no jobs would get cut. Cindy was like, okay, but for how long? A year? 10 years?

Mary Childs (10:25)

If these jobs had gone away, would you have had a hard time finding another job or an easy time?

Cindy Cordes (10:30)

Where I live, there is a few other companies right in town, manufacturing companies that I think people, you know, some people would have found jobs right in town, But I don't think there would have been enough for everybody.

Waylon Wong (10:44)

So the workers are nervous. And meanwhile, KKR is quietly working on their test Case for this worker ownership thing.

Mary Childs (10:51)

And they ran into a few problems. Pete says the first was that the workers in the company didn't really trust the company's management. Immediately after they buy the company, Pete says, KKR starts getting a lot of complaints about worker safety, unscheduled overtime, and people feeling like they weren't being listened to.

Waylon Wong (11:10)

KKR was like, if we give the workers equity now, they're not going to believe us. Their company had already been bought and sold by three other private equity firms. So Pete was worried they would not trust this move they would think was some kind of trick. So he thought, let's work on improving safety and culture first, just some basic

Pete Stavros (11:30)

things, and then we can talk about employee ownership, and hopefully then it will be received in good faith.

Mary Childs (11:38)

But the other problem was, since this was literally his first rodeo, they had to figure out how to do it.

Pete Stavros (11:44)

This is way more complicated than it sounds. And even just structuring it and implementing it and administering it's really challenging.

Waylon Wong (11:51)

This was a multinational company, so it spanned different jurisdictions, each with their own problems. Like in Western Europe, if you gave a worker ownership, a lot of times

Pete Stavros (12:01)

they get taxed on the grant and have something called dry income. So even though they don't have any cash from the share grant that you made, they have to pay taxes. So we had to work around that.

Mary Childs (12:12)

And here at home, there were other obstacles.

Pete Stavros (12:14)

At the time in the United States, there was a real limit on how many shareholders you could even have in a private company.

Waylon Wong (12:21)

So simply figuring out the how was a big challenge. But eventually they did it. They rolled out an ownership program.

Mary Childs (12:27)

But Pete says, this first time, it was kind of sloppy.

Pete Stavros (12:31)

We in a very haphazard, and not in a way that I would characterize as being well done. We rolled out employee ownership for everyone.

Mary Childs (12:40)

But they felt weird telling the employees at that company that they were now part owners. Like, what if they say everyone's getting equity, but then they bungle the rollout and can't fulfill their promise somehow? So they just did it quietly. They structured some equity, gave it to the employees, and basically didn't say a peep. The corporate equivalent of sliding an envelope across the table, an invisible envelope.

Waylon Wong (13:03)

So Cindy, an employee at that company getting ownership at that moment, had no idea.

Cindy Cordes (13:09)

We did not know that there was going to be, like, this incentive. None of that was brought to our attention until they sold the company to 3M.

Waylon Wong (13:22)

So when KKR sold the company to 3M in 2015, all that surprise equity suddenly paid out for Cindy and All her co workers, they found out one day Cindy was in a big meeting with more than 100 of her coworkers.

Cindy Cordes (13:36)

So we were in the cafeteria, which is nice size, and we were like sardines in there. And then they announced that, you know, there was going to be this big incentive, what bonus that we would all be getting because of the sale. And we're like, okay, you know, so we all were thinking, you know, it was going to be a few hundred dollars, maybe a thousand dollars, you know, and stuff.

Mary Childs (13:59)

The check was bigger than she'd expected. She wouldn't tell me how much it

Cindy Cordes (14:03)

was like, oh my gosh, I've never had anything like this before.

Mary Childs (14:08)

She says it was five digits, $10,000 or more.

Cindy Cordes (14:11)

And it came at a good time, especially for me. And I know for a few other people where I use that money to pay off a couple of my credit cards. Back then I still had a couple of my kids still lived at home and, you know, so that I could go and I could be a little more debt free.

Waylon Wong (14:32)

And Sydney remembers that feeling of getting the money. It wasn't life changing, but it was a nice surprise.

Mary Childs (14:38)

Were they basically like, by the way, you've had equity this whole time and we just never mentioned it, right?

Sponsor/Promotions Voice (14:44)

No.

Mary Childs (14:45)

That's so funny to me. Is it funny to you?

Cindy Cordes (14:48)

It is. You know, there is a lot of communication that does not get brought down to the people that are working on the floor.

Waylon Wong (14:58)

And she thinks this was kind of a missed opportunity. Y' all had told us we, the workers might have acted differently.

Cindy Cordes (15:05)

I think if we would have known it when they would have bought our company, I think people would have probably stuck a little more effort into it and making the company grow maybe a little bit more. We had no idea that this was going to be what was going to be happening when they sold the company.

Mary Childs (15:24)

KKR did sell her company. This wasn't a failure. But on the worker ownership part, it kind of was. Because maybe if the Cindys of the world had known that they had equity and had been that much more engaged and felt that much more ownership, their productivity might have been higher and profitability might have been higher. KKR could have sold the company for even more and Cindy's check might have had another zero on it.

Waylon Wong (15:49)

Pete agrees with Cindy. The first test of how to give workers equity with was not its best possible execution.

Pete Stavros (15:56)

I would say the communication was like a F. You know, we were worried about over promising and under delivering. So we kind of weren't real clear on what it could mean to people and on and on and on. It was just not well done.

Mary Childs (16:13)

So Pete has learned an important lesson. You gotta tell people when they become owners. And now he has also learned how to structure this. So he takes those lessons to the next company his group buys and the next.

Mike Pavelko (16:25)

And I mean it was one of the greatest things ever happened to me in my life. You know.

Waylon Wong (16:29)

That's after the break.

Sponsor/Promotions Voice (16:45)

This message comes from Schwab. At Schwab you can get everything from self directed investing to full service wealth management all in one place. No matter your investing goal, life stage, amount to invest, or know how you can invest your way with Schwab.

Announcer (17:01)

This message comes from Grainger. For the ones who get it done, Grainger offers the professional grade products you need to get the job done with fast delivery and access to technical product experts ready to help you meet any challenge. Call click grainger.com or just stop by support for NPR. And the following message comes from Rippling Tired of using HR systems that feel fragmented and manual? Rippling unifies hr, IT and finance into a single platform to run your business. In as little as 90 seconds, rippling can onboard a new employee automatically setting up payroll, benefits, devices and corporate cards all from one place. It's a simpler way to run your business. Head to rippling.com money and sign up up today. That's r I p p l I n g.com money after the haphazard, not

Waylon Wong (17:55)

success of worker ownership at Capital Safety, Pete Stavros does not give up. He continues testing out his theory that giving workers equity can be good for business.

Pete Stavros (18:04)

And so we tried it again and again and again and we did it with about a half dozen manufacturing companies.

Waylon Wong (18:10)

Each time he tries this, it's another experiment. He sets up the program using the structures he's learned so far and watches to see what will go wrong or right this time. And then he'll write down in his mental research folder what he thinks the lesson is from this iteration and tweak his approach for the next one. And in 2018, he landed on a version that seemed to really work.

Mary Childs (18:31)

He and his team bought GSI Geostabilization International. It does things like emergency landslide repairs and rockfall mitigation. And I talked to one guy who works there, Mike Pavelko. He told me he started at GSI in 2018 and his first job was to show up to a work site where some emergency needed fixing. Like undo the mess from a landslide. Does that mean you have a shovel and you dig?

Mike Pavelko (18:55)

Yeah, but you know, even as a Senior superintendent. I have a shovel, and I dig. That's just the way that GSI is here.

Waylon Wong (19:03)

As a kid, Mike was big into Legos and Tonka trucks. But this work can be intense. Like, a couple years ago, he got sent out on i40 to help clean up from Hurricane Helene in North Carolina so that first responders could get through the mountain.

Mike Pavelko (19:17)

The mountain was still moving while we were there. We just drilled from a safe area, and we were able to drill in micropiles and grout that up, and it held one, like, perfectly.

Mary Childs (19:29)

That's. That's crazy. You put nails and glue into a falling mountain and it stopped it.

Mike Pavelko (19:36)

Yeah. It's just Portland cement is the grout, and that's. That's what we use when we drill nails. Yep.

Mary Childs (19:41)

You're like, it's not glue. Okay.

Waylon Wong (19:46)

Mike joined the company right before Pete's group at KKR bought it. The acquisition was the first time he'd ever heard of kkr. He had no impression of the company or Pete or private equity at all before that. And from the beginning, KKR gave all the GSI workers equity and remembered to tell the workers about it. Mike definitely got the memo.

Mike Pavelko (20:06)

It's ownership.

Mary Childs (20:07)

And how does that feel?

Mike Pavelko (20:09)

It feels awesome. I think it gives everybody here, when they go to work every day, it gives them a little edge, and it gives them something that they know that they're working hard for. It's not just going to a nine to five. This is a. This is a job that you just really, truly feel a part of.

Mary Childs (20:24)

And it changes how you show up.

Mike Pavelko (20:26)

Absolutely, it does. I think that's just what makes us want to hit our numbers, because as long as we're hitting our numbers and excelling more than what's expected, then we know, you know, we're bringing that share up.

Waylon Wong (20:36)

Now, the equity doesn't come with any, like, vote in how the company is managed, and it doesn't necessarily go with you if you leave. But for Mike, the equity changed his relationship with his work. It made him feel and act like an owner.

Mike Pavelko (20:50)

It definitely brings a lot of pride factor, too, here. Right. Like, we know what things could. Could damage the shareholder. You know, all our shares, we all know and keep that in our mind. You know, we. We need to hit. Make margins on projects, and, you know, there's just a lot of pride.

Mary Childs (21:06)

So you, like, oil your machines a little bit more carefully. You, like, don't steal office supplies like you might otherwise. Not that anyone would do that.

Mike Pavelko (21:15)

Yes, correct. Correct.

Waylon Wong (21:17)

Over the years, Mike started attending owners calls about Every three months, where he and his co workers would hear about the company's growth and what their shares were worth. He got promoted to management.

Mary Childs (21:27)

Then in October 2024, KKR announced it was selling GSI. Management had a big internal meeting in Denver to tell the employees, and they flew Mike out for it.

Mike Pavelko (21:37)

I just remember standing in the room and, you know, they were going through the numbers and I was just like, kind of like, no way.

Waylon Wong (21:43)

You know, Then they reveal how much money everyone's getting.

Mike Pavelko (21:47)

I really didn't say anything for probably about like 30 minutes. Like, people are cheering and I'm just. I was in shock. Like, I just. It's just something that's just impossible to believe. Right.

Mary Childs (21:56)

Because for this portfolio company, for this worker, the payout has been life changing.

Mike Pavelko (22:02)

When I started here at gsi, I remember getting on the plane and I had a hundred dollars in my pocket and kind of just didn't look back. And I mean, it. I bought my first home. I mean, it changed my life.

Cindy Cordes (22:15)

Whoa.

Mary Childs (22:16)

Can I. Sorry. Tacky. Can I ask how much it was?

Mike Pavelko (22:20)

Yeah. The initial was 195,000. And then, uh, for the next two additional years, I got $25,000 for each year that I stay.

Mary Childs (22:30)

Kind of like $250,000.

Mike Pavelko (22:32)

Yes.

Mary Childs (22:33)

Quarter of a million dollars.

Mike Pavelko (22:35)

Yes.

Waylon Wong (22:36)

Okay.

Mike Pavelko (22:38)

Yeah.

Waylon Wong (22:39)

Mike's new home is in Tennessee. Three bed, two and a half bath, a garage.

Mike Pavelko (22:43)

I'll be honest, I never thought that would be a situation I'd ever come upon in my life to purchase a brand new home, you know, that it was just built, you know, so it was, it was pretty amazing.

Mary Childs (22:54)

Is it in a very stable land area?

Mike Pavelko (22:57)

Yes, it is.

Mary Childs (22:58)

High up, but not an unstable hill.

Mike Pavelko (23:01)

Yeah, yeah.

Waylon Wong (23:03)

Instead of doing the standard private equity thing of firing a percentage of the workforce, Pete's model has those workers bought in.

Mary Childs (23:10)

When we asked Pete about why he's doing all this, whether he's trying to fix private equity or rehab its image, he was like, no.

Pete Stavros (23:18)

Yeah. I really hope I'm not seen as someone trying to write the reputation of private equity. That's certainly not my focus and why I'm doing this.

Mary Childs (23:30)

He does it because he's seen the results. Workers who are more engaged, less likely to quit. To date, Pete's implemented his ownership model at 85 companies. They're not like distressed companies in dire straits. They're generally growing, healthy companies. But his project has caused more than 190,000 workers to have a stake in their companies, where they probably wouldn't have otherwise.

Waylon Wong (23:53)

In the case of Mike's company, they definitely saw a change in the business's metrics. Like Pete says, when KKR bought gsi, half of the workforce was quitting every year.

Pete Stavros (24:04)

So that meant we're hiring like hundreds and hundreds of people every year and losing them, you know, almost as that whole amount every two years. What a waste for the company of having to re recruit and retrain and re onboard all of these folks. And then of course, the newest folks are the least productive, least efficient, and most likely to get hurt. So just awful, that setup, that was

Mary Childs (24:29)

before and the after over five years,

Pete Stavros (24:33)

the quit rate dropped to around 15%.

Waylon Wong (24:36)

But this kind of clear results isn't always the case. By now, Pete and kkr, they have all these different test cases. The companies are pretty similar. KKR gives the workers equity and all the same tools and tries to make the companies more profitable in their little laboratory.

Pete Stavros (24:51)

And in one case, you'll see engagement scores go up a lot and the quit rate plummet. And in the other case, nothing will happen. And so as you can imagine, we're spending a lot of time trying to

Mary Childs (25:01)

understand why is that sometimes employees don't become more engaged. Their productivity does not go up. They keep quitting. Pete and KKR are like, okay, what gives? Pete's given it a lot of thought.

Pete Stavros (25:13)

And the answer we keep coming back to is it's leadership. You know, if you have the wrong leader at the top, they're not going to get the most out of this program. And the question is, what is it about the leader?

Waylon Wong (25:28)

Pete has been testing some theories.

Pete Stavros (25:30)

What we're focused on at the moment is this idea of empathy. So the leader who is doing this from a place of, I want to do this because it's, it's good for my people. And what an honor as a leader to be able to do this for in some cases, thousands of people who have never had a shot economically. Those leaders we're finding are the ones who do a phenomenal job with the program, the ones who come at it from the perspective of, okay, if I do this, like, how much productivity can I get? Like, what exactly is in it for me and how do I turn the dials? That approach doesn't seem to be as effective.

Waylon Wong (26:09)

It's the challenge of building trust. Like what he'd been thinking about all the way back with Cindy's company. It's actually listening to workers like his dad wanted.

Mary Childs (26:18)

At least in Mike's case at gsi, Pete's thesis about empathy seems to be pretty well borne out.

Mike Pavelko (26:24)

It doesn't matter what position you are. Like, you would have people coming out that you would never expect on your job site. You know, like just having somebody at AS in higher management. You know, I remember Colby Barrett coming out one time and he was changing drill steel for us like he was running GSI at the time. That's something that I bought into pretty hardcore.

Mary Childs (26:44)

Having a good empathetic leader is Pete's leading theory as to why this works sometimes. But Pete will tell you worker ownership is not some kind of cheat code. It's really hard to do, he says, and it just doesn't always work.

Waylon Wong (26:58)

Even so, the case that Pete's making to his peers and competitors that maybe they should do it too is getting even more compelling. Private equity just isn't generating the big returns it used to, even and especially relative to the regular degular stock market. So if Pete has found a whole new way to improve company performance and boost PE returns, maybe it will really spread.

Mary Childs (27:21)

There is evidence the idea is getting traction. Outside of kkr, private equity firms including Blackstone, Aries and TPG are all rolling out similar programs.

Waylon Wong (27:34)

Our book is finally available in stores. You can walk into your favorite bookstore and buy it or listen as an audiobook. The book is Planet Money, a guide to the economic forces that shape your life. Details and book tour tickets@planetmoneybook.com this episode of Planet Money was produced by Sam Yellow Horse Kessler. It was edited by Jess Jang with an assist from Marianne McCune. Fact checked by Sierra Juarez and engineered by Sina Lofredo, with help from Jimmy Keeley. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer.

Mary Childs (28:03)

Thank you to Josh Lerner. I'm Mary Childs.

Waylon Wong (28:05)

And I'm Waylon Wong. This is npr. Thanks for listening.

Announcer (28:13)

This message comes from Northwestern Mutual. Their financial professionals will build a tailored plan based on your goals, looking out for blind spots and new opportunities. Get started@nm.com the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

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