Justin Kraymond (1:26)

Can we actually, can we meet Robbie?

Sponsor Announcer (1:28)

Yeah.

Kenny Poon (1:28)

Oh, yeah.

Sponsor Announcer (1:29)

Come on.

Erica Barris (1:31)

Wait, this is Robbie.

Kenny Poon (1:32)

That's Robbie right here.

Xola Olonloyo (1:33)

Yup.

Erica Barris (1:35)

Robbie's a machine, not a human. The always on time, never sick, never talks back. Employee is an automated walk, a robot chef. Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Erica Barris.

Justin Kraymond (1:50)

And I'm Justin Kraymond. Robot chefs, they're here at White Castle, flipping your burgers at Panda Express, stir frying your vegetables. They're in restaurants all over the country.

Erica Barris (2:00)

Today on the show what do robot chefs mean for the restaurant industry? We find out from a leading economist how jobs might be lost and gained or maybe just changed through automation. And then we see how it's playing out and fading out in real life.

Justin Kraymond (2:17)

Also, how's the food? We pit a human chef against a robot in a taste test smackdown.

Sponsor Announcer (2:28)

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Erica Barris (3:39)

Restaurants are the latest frontier for robots. Automated machines have gotten better and better. So today to test out the technology, we wanted to pit a robot against a human chef. And like any good smackdown, we start by meeting the competitors. In one corner, we've got Robby.

Justin Kraymond (3:58)

Since Robbie's a robot and can't actually talk, Kenny helps us describe as star chef. It's about 6ft tall and a couple feet wide, mostly metal, with a big LED screen across the top. And at the center of it all is this basket. That's where the cooking happens.

Kenny Poon (4:13)

It looked like a washing machine. And then inside, this machine had all the ingredients in there already.

Erica Barris (4:21)

The basket is essentially a wok. It heats up and spins and different tubes squirt sauces and seasoning as all the ingredients are tossed around.

Justin Kraymond (4:31)

That's contestant number one, Robby the Wockbot.

Erica Barris (4:34)

For contestant number two, we go to a nearby restaurant called Ting Wang. It also serves Cantonese style wok dishes. But at Ting Long, humans do the cooking.

Justin Kraymond (4:43)

When we get to the kitchen, we find about six people prepping vegetables and meat, steaming rice. In the center of it all is Judy Huang.

Judy Huang (4:51)

I am basically the office person, the translator. If they need anything fixed, I hook

Daron Acemoglu (4:56)

them up with it.

Judy Huang (4:57)

I have to schedule whatever that needs be to be scheduled. So all the side job, you do

Justin Kraymond (5:01)

everything like, other than the cooking part. Judy's the co owner here at Ting Wong. We ask her to introduce us to Robbie's competitor.

Erica Barris (5:16)

My name is Feng Fong Huan Chiang has been a chef for 13 years. He makes $35 an hour and he's wearing his chef's hat, hat and apron and standing over a well seasoned wok that sits on an open flame. Chef Fong is not comfortable speaking English, so Judy helps translate. How many dishes can he make in like an hour?

Judy Huang (5:40)

About 20 to 30.

Erica Barris (5:41)

Oh, my goodness. That's a lot.

Judy Huang (5:42)

So the chef, he actually went to competitions in China.

Justin Kraymond (5:46)

Judy shows us a picture of Fung on a stage holding up a plaque.

Erica Barris (5:50)

What is this competition like? What does all that say?

Judy Huang (5:55)

It's a chef competition in the Guangdong province. He got first place.

Justin Kraymond (5:59)

Wow.

Erica Barris (6:00)

Okay, so that's contestant number two. An award winning chef from Guangdong province with over a decade of experience.

Justin Kraymond (6:07)

Chef Fong and Robby are here for the chef versus robot smackdown. They're each gonna make three dishes. Beef chafon, fried rice, and wok stir fried beef. And a judge will determine which one takes the crown.

Erica Barris (6:21)

Now that we've met our chefs and laid out the rules, the smackdown begins.

Justin Kraymond (6:29)

All right, Chef Fung gets to work on his first dish. Beef chow fun. This rice noodle dish with meat and onions and vegetables. Judy makes a gesture for us to lean in and listen.

Erica Barris (6:40)

What are we listening for?

Judy Huang (6:42)

You know when you hear that sound, that crispy, oral sound? That's when they're preparing the wok.

Erica Barris (6:46)

Chef Fung starts adding strips of beef to the wok, to the sizzling oil

Judy Huang (6:51)

you need at extremely high temperature. Can you do it at home? No, you can pretty much.

Erica Barris (6:56)

He drains the beef, adds vegetables, and starts tossing everything into the air. Flames around the wok rise up about 2ft. It is very intense.

Justin Kraymond (7:06)

The key to Cantonese wok cooking is something called wok k, sometimes translated as breath of the wok. Think of it as this super high heat that kisses the food and imparts this special flavor. A bit of caramelization.

Judy Huang (7:20)

The char of it is gonna be different. The flavor of it, everything. The seasoning and, like, you can taste that it's made by humans versus a robot chef.

Erica Barris (7:28)

Fong tosses in some sauces and spices, gives it a couple more shakes, and spoons the finished dish onto a plate.

Justin Kraymond (7:36)

Now it's time to go see what Robbie's been up to. Our robot competitor has also been working on the first dish. Beef chow fun.

Erica Barris (7:44)

Where is the fire? Where is the flame?

Kenny Poon (7:46)

It's the leche. So it's all leches.

Erica Barris (7:48)

The wok is electric. There is no roaring fire. Instead, Robbie has a touchscreen.

Justin Kraymond (7:54)

Now, Robbie isn't fully automated. It's only partially automated. And that touchscreen tells Kenny, the human prep cook, what to do, which ingredients to add to the hot spinning basket and when.

Erica Barris (8:05)

So here comes Kenny, and he just threw in some onion. So you. So you're still putting everything in manually?

Kenny Poon (8:11)

Oh, yeah.

Erica Barris (8:12)

That's not that different from a wok, though.

Kenny Poon (8:14)

But now you don't have to stir fry no more because I. Whoa.

Erica Barris (8:17)

It's rotating. It just turned up the other way around.

Justin Kraymond (8:20)

The opening of the basket turns so the sauces can get squirted in. The drum spins some more, and then a timer runs out and the screen flashes. Kenny gets ready for the final step.

Erica Barris (8:30)

So now he is tilting it down and scooping it into a silver, like, mixing bowl. And I guess it's done.

Sponsor Announcer (8:40)

Whoa.

Justin Kraymond (8:42)

Watching the robot engulfed in steam, that sound was Robbie auto washing himself.

Erica Barris (8:49)

Okay, one dish down. Both chefs get started on their next dishes. And while their woks are heating up, let's take a minute to talk about about automation.

Daron Acemoglu (9:03)

Restaurants have been trying this for ages. It is ripe for automation because it's very labor intensive. On the other hand, some of the labor is very cheap. So it's not going to be that profitable unless the machines are really superb.

Erica Barris (9:17)

We reached out to someone who has done a lot of work on automation and labor.

Daron Acemoglu (9:22)

My name is Darun Asamoglu. I am an institute professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Erica Barris (9:28)

You're being very humble. Is that the Nobel Prize behind you?

Daron Acemoglu (9:32)

It might be, actually. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. That's mine. You see, here is the secret. They also give you three fake ones, so I don't have the full gold one there.

Xola Olonloyo (9:41)

So

Justin Kraymond (9:44)

now he hasn't specifically studied the restaurant industry, but he's done some of the leading economic research on automation and how it affects the people who work in fields like manufacturing and office work.

Erica Barris (9:55)

Daron and a co author, Pasquale Restrepo, did a big innovative thing in a study that was published recently. They actually quantified how many jobs automation added or subtracted in a bunch of local economies. They specifically chose industries that between 1990 and 2007 used a lot of automation, like car or electronics manufacturing. And they estimated the effect automation had on jobs, workers, and their wages.

Justin Kraymond (10:21)

Daron explains that it's not as cut and dry as just robots steal jobs because there are really two forces at play here, two effects that are both vying for dominance.

Erica Barris (10:31)

Okay, so let's take car manufacturing, for instance. Robots could paint cars, a job that was once done by humans. So that's an example of robots taking jobs. Daron says this is called the displacement effect.

Daron Acemoglu (10:45)

By displacement, I mean just very simply the fact that if robots are doing painting, the then workers who were previously specialized in painting are no longer going to do that. They're displaced from the painting tasks.

Erica Barris (10:59)

But there is also this other force, this other effect that's happening. Robots can also make jobs or complement existing jobs.

Daron Acemoglu (11:08)

Once workers are displaced from the tasks that robots can now do, they can go and do other things. And sometimes, not always, but sometimes that could actually be a good thing for them because they're doing more interesting things.

Justin Kraymond (11:22)

If robots are painting, that could create opportunities for new jobs. Maybe there's a need for engineers to design the robots, or machinists to take care of them, or more managers to handle the workflow. Daron says this is called the reinstatement effect.

Daron Acemoglu (11:36)

Reinstatement means essentially now how we are creating new jobs or new types of jobs in order to bring workers back into the production process.

Erica Barris (11:47)

These two forces, displacement and reinstatement, are going in opposite directions. And in the end, Daron and his co author found in the areas that they looked at, displacement won out.

Justin Kraymond (11:59)

They found that one new robot per thousand workers reduced employment by about three workers, and overall wages decreased by about 0.4%.

Erica Barris (12:08)

But the effect of automation on wages can be different for different workers. Automation can complement higher wage workers. Robots can help them do tasks in and be more productive, Allowing their wages to go up even higher.

Justin Kraymond (12:20)

But automation can displace middle wage workers and force them into lower wage jobs. Think like people on the assembly line who painted cars. They might end up pouring paint into machines or doing janitorial work. That probably means their wages go down, or they might even lose their manufacturing job altogether.

Erica Barris (12:37)

And these competing forces aren't just contained to the manufacturing industry. Theoretically, workers losing their jobs Might create an excess of labor and drive down wages. In other words, other industries, but also some workers who benefited from automation Might earn more and have more disposable income. Maybe they used that money to go out to eat more. This creates more jobs in, say, the food industry.

Justin Kraymond (13:00)

Some of those displaced manufacturing workers who used to paint cars could get a job at a restaurant as a waiter or prep cook.

Erica Barris (13:07)

Now, up until the last decade or two, Restaurants haven't really faced these automation effects. Some of the skills required in kitchens, the dexterity of, say, julienning vegetables or mincing garlic, Some of those jobs take fine motor skills and levels of precision that robots have not been capable of.

Justin Kraymond (13:25)

So what we've seen in these other industries in manufacturing in the 90s and early 2000s, hasn't really happened in the restaurant industry Yet.

Erica Barris (13:33)

In the last 10 years, that's been changing. Robots are stepping up their game. They've started by taking over the simpler, more repetitive jobs, like for frying and burger flipping. But they've been working their way up the ladder to finer Knife skills and even preparing complicated sauces.

Justin Kraymond (13:49)

So Robbie the walkbot might complement higher end workers, making them more productive. But it could also replace some workers and push some middle skill workers into lower skill work. So the line cook ends up just pouring raw ingredients into the robot or doing some other grunt work.

Erica Barris (14:07)

Back at the smackdown, Chef Bong and Robbie are both finishing up their second dishes. Veggie fried rice. The dishes look and smell pretty good to me, but we have called in a professional to be the official judge. Let's go meet him.

Xola Olonloyo (14:27)

Why am I the judge of this competition? It's my fascination.

Justin Kraymond (14:32)

Xola Olonloyo is a chef. He's worked in some famous restaurants on the east coast.

Sponsor Announcer (14:37)

He's.

Justin Kraymond (14:38)

He's a big name in Philly and New York. May have seen him on cooking shows.

Erica Barris (14:42)

You are underselling him.

Justin Kraymond (14:44)

All right. He didn't want us to name names, but he's cooked for some pretty famous people and Hollywood stars.

Erica Barris (14:49)

Fancy.

Justin Kraymond (14:50)

And it all started back when he was a kid in Nigeria.

Xola Olonloyo (14:54)

I grew up in West Africa. You know, there were no, like, you know, Whole Foods or super Freshers. We went to the market, we bought stuff, we cooked it.

Erica Barris (15:01)

So Shola's our judge because he knows food and because he knows the restaurant industry.

Justin Kraymond (15:07)

He says the economics of that industry is notoriously tight. The median profit margin for a restaurant is 3 to 4%.

Erica Barris (15:15)

That seems small.

Xola Olonloyo (15:16)

It is very small.

Erica Barris (15:18)

Okay.

Xola Olonloyo (15:18)

You can make that much more than that in treasury bills if you just do nothing.

Justin Kraymond (15:22)

Right.

Xola Olonloyo (15:24)

Just give your money to the US Government and go on vacation.

Erica Barris (15:27)

Actually, you'd get about the same for a lot less work. And that's why automation is so appealing for restaurant owners. Rents are high, the cost of food is high, and labor costs are high. Shola says robots may be able to help restaurants stay competitive.

Justin Kraymond (15:42)

Are you pro automation?

Xola Olonloyo (15:43)

I am pro automation. I'm pro automation where it makes sense. And it makes sense in a lot of places.

Justin Kraymond (15:48)

Shola is a consultant for restaurants and companies in the food industry. They'll sometimes ask him to look at new technology like automated ovens or special food processors and tell them how to make the technology better.

Erica Barris (16:00)

So Shola's pro automation, but he's also pro taste. He cares about food and flavor. But he says for food that isn't high end, like burgers, fries, chicken wings, the majority of people won't notice the subtle differences between human and robot cooking.

Xola Olonloyo (16:15)

Most people won't tell the difference, especially with high glutamate foods that are just, like, hot and crispy and Saucy.

Justin Kraymond (16:22)

Does that, like, make you want to cry that people can't tell?

Xola Olonloyo (16:24)

No, it doesn't make me want to cry. It's just the truth, you know, it's the reality of cooking. Not every singer is Whitney Houston, but they still make money and sell music, you know,

Erica Barris (16:34)

Shola is not the only person who thinks there's a place for robots in kitchens. We talked to a lot of people in the food industry, and they've told us robots can do things humans can't do. Like Robbie, for example. And the time it takes a human to make four servings, Robbie can make 15.

Justin Kraymond (16:51)

And while a human can have an off day or an off dish, the robot is consistent. Now, the robot does break down sometimes, and that can be a problem for a restaurant for a couple hours or a day or however long it takes to fix it. But for the most part, it is remarkably consistent and makes the same quality of food every single time.

Erica Barris (17:11)

And that comes at a cost. According to the manufacturer, a company called Next Robot Ravi costs about $36,000 right now. That's a lot for most restaurants, so so many kitchens rent their wokbots, and it ends up costing about $5 an hour. But as technology improves and there's more competition in robot chefs, the cost for wokbots will probably go down.

Justin Kraymond (17:35)

Right now, for the dishes we bought for this competition, the food made by the robot costs about the same as the food made by a human. But if the robot gets cheaper and the robot food gets cheaper than there might be a bigger and bigger difference.

Erica Barris (17:52)

All right, we've got our competitors. We've got our judge. Let's see how the cooking is going.

Justin Kraymond (18:01)

First, Chef Fung is at work making our vegetable fried rice.

Erica Barris (18:07)

And you have to have strong arm muscles to do that. That's what I'm saying. He is wondering, working hard.

Justin Kraymond (18:14)

I definitely don't get that kind of airtime on my fried rice.

Erica Barris (18:19)

We ask Chef Bung if he thinks a robot could do his job, and he's like, no way. There's no way a robot could get that caramelized flavor, that wok hei into a dish.

Justin Kraymond (18:30)

Who do you think is going to be?

Judy Huang (18:42)

He's. He's confident that it's going to be our dish, because if you lack walk. Hey, in a dish, it's just a regular dish.

Xola Olonloyo (18:49)

Okay.

Justin Kraymond (18:50)

Chef Fung likes his chances. But Judy tells us there's a problem with human chefs right now.

Judy Huang (18:55)

No one wants to do this type of intense labor anymore.

Justin Kraymond (18:57)

Have you hired recently, Recent?

Erica Barris (19:00)

No.

Judy Huang (19:01)

We've tried previously hiring, but we just have to let them go.

Erica Barris (19:06)

Judy says people will come in, work a few days, and then they bounce. Not for them. Or they just can't do it. The technique isn't there. Robots could help with that staffing problem. So she gets why restaurants would get a robot rather than hire qualified human chefs.

Judy Huang (19:22)

I understand 100%, I'm not gonna lie. But as a diner, I know for a fact that they can taste.

Erica Barris (19:29)

I can taste.

Judy Huang (19:30)

I'm a diner too.

Justin Kraymond (19:31)

Judy can imagine more and more robots in restaurant kitchens. And she's sad that future generations might lose the flavor and tradition. Things like wok Hei that were such a part of her childhood.

Erica Barris (19:43)

Next, we check in on Robbie the wockbot. It is also making the vegetable fried rice. After the robot finishes and self washes, Kenny, the prep cook and I peer into the drum and there's still some rice in there. So now you're spraying it with a water hose. And is this still easier than having like a human chef making it?

Kenny Poon (20:02)

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Erica Barris (20:05)

Why?

Kenny Poon (20:05)

So the human chef, you need to at least two months to learn to know how to use in the wok. To use this machine, all you need like 30 minutes or hour.

Justin Kraymond (20:15)

30 minutes of training versus months or years of training. That means Kenny can hire just about any.

Kenny Poon (20:22)

Now I don't have to require a main chef.

Justin Kraymond (20:25)

How has it changed the staffing for the restaurants?

Kenny Poon (20:27)

It's easier. So now I don't need to ask them what's your skill? No more. All I need to ask them, what's your availability?

Erica Barris (20:34)

So hiring, staffing, training, all those costs have gone down.

Justin Kraymond (20:38)

As Robby worked on the next dish, we told Kenny about their Smackdown competitor, Ting Wong.

Kenny Poon (20:43)

Ting Wang's good. I order food from them all the time.

Justin Kraymond (20:46)

So who do you think's going to be better, the the robot or the human?

Kenny Poon (20:49)

They, my friend. Man, why you put me in a spot like this?

Erica Barris (20:52)

He seems a little taken aback.

Kenny Poon (20:54)

I think way similar.

Justin Kraymond (20:56)

It's a close competition.

Kenny Poon (20:57)

Very close competition.

Justin Kraymond (20:58)

Yeah, but like, you feel pretty confident that the robot can stand up to the.

Erica Barris (21:03)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Justin Kraymond (21:04)

Do you think you could tell the difference? Which one's made by the robot?

Kenny Poon (21:08)

Don't think so.

Justin Kraymond (21:09)

All right, enough speculating. It's time to taste some food. The Chef versus Robot Smackdown. That's after the break.

Commercial Announcer (21:24)

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Erica Barris (22:56)

Now it's time for what we've all been waiting for, the Chef Bro versus Robot smackdown.

Justin Kraymond (23:03)

Both competitors, Robby the Robot and Chef Fung the Human, made the same three dishes. Our judge, Shola, is going to judge two things. First, he'll try each of the dishes head to head and judge them on taste.

Erica Barris (23:18)

Then he's going to guess which dish was made by the human and which one was made by the robot.

Justin Kraymond (23:25)

Let's get to it.

Erica Barris (23:28)

The first dish that we'll be presenting you.

Justin Kraymond (23:31)

Yeah, we're going with beef chow fun. First,

Erica Barris (23:35)

Xolo starts by smelling both dishes, picking up each plate and putting his whole face in.

Xola Olonloyo (23:42)

I mean, they both smell like chow fun.

Justin Kraymond (23:46)

He notices something about one dish.

Xola Olonloyo (23:49)

This smells more caramelized on the meat side.

Justin Kraymond (23:52)

Do they both look like reasonable?

Xola Olonloyo (23:54)

Yeah, they look reasonable.

Justin Kraymond (23:56)

He takes his time trying each of the two dishes and Chola says both had good noodle texture, but he had a clear favorite.

Xola Olonloyo (24:03)

I feel like this is the human one.

Erica Barris (24:05)

To me they both tasted about the

Justin Kraymond (24:07)

same and I will say I agreed with Shola. I thought I could taste that char, that wok hei.

Erica Barris (24:13)

In one of the dishes, Shola writes down his scores. All right. Onto the next dish.

Xola Olonloyo (24:22)

So what do we have here?

Erica Barris (24:23)

Vegetable fried rice with egg.

Xola Olonloyo (24:25)

Okay.

Justin Kraymond (24:26)

He loads up his chopsticks, takes a bite.

Xola Olonloyo (24:28)

I feel like this is the human one.

Erica Barris (24:30)

What makes this look human?

Xola Olonloyo (24:32)

Because it seems to have the visual impression of what would be fried rice because it has a better representation of vegetables.

Erica Barris (24:38)

Xola thinks the other one was made by the robot. It's Too dark. I noticed that the vegetables looked beat up. They were too tiny, and the rice looked kind of mashed up.

Justin Kraymond (24:49)

But surprisingly, Shola likes the one he thinks was made by the robot.

Xola Olonloyo (24:53)

This tastes better. More glutamate response. Because obviously a substantial, substantially larger amount of soy sauce has been used.

Erica Barris (25:05)

Okay, we're down to the last dish.

Justin Kraymond (25:12)

So these are the wok style stir fried beef.

Erica Barris (25:15)

Shola gestures to one with his chopsticks.

Xola Olonloyo (25:17)

I feel like a human being would have been proud to make that.

Justin Kraymond (25:20)

It's colorful. You can see different shades of peppers, and it has that umami fermented black bean flavor.

Erica Barris (25:27)

Shola takes one last bite and jots down the final scores. Okay, here are the results.

Justin Kraymond (25:38)

I will say on all three, Shola was correct about which was the human dish and which was the robot dish.

Erica Barris (25:43)

So you were right every time.

Xola Olonloyo (25:44)

Oh, I'm surprised.

Erica Barris (25:46)

Did the human dish win every time?

Justin Kraymond (25:48)

The human dish did not win every time. In the end, the human won the beef chow fun and wok stir fried beef. But the robot won the fried rice. Even though Robbie's dish didn't look the best, it won out on flavor.

Erica Barris (26:02)

The robot put up a good showing, but it couldn't do what Chef Bong had learned in over a decade of wok training.

Justin Kraymond (26:12)

Okay, the human may have won out on taste, but that's not the only way people decide where they eat. There are other factors to consider.

Erica Barris (26:19)

Chef Bong costs the restaurant $35 an hour. Robbie costs $5 an hour. Chef Bong makes four servings in the time it takes Robby to make 15.

Justin Kraymond (26:30)

And people might decide they value cost and convenience more than taste.

Erica Barris (26:35)

Daron Acemoglu, the Nobel prize winning economist, says this is the kind of thing that people will have to figure out whether they want somewhat better tasting but more expensive food made by a human or the food that is made by a robot.

Daron Acemoglu (26:49)

So? So there are always trade offs, and consumers are going to make those trade offs, but I think consumers are going to work that out because they're going to be voting with their feet.

Justin Kraymond (26:57)

Lots of fast food and fast casual restaurants are already using automated tools like White Castle and Panda Express. And as people get busier and more used to robots and restaurants, margins get slightly slimmer and slimmer. Restaurants have more incentive to bring robots into kitchens. And if people aren't willing to pay extra for food made by a human, we might be seeing a lot more robot made food in our lives.

Erica Barris (27:26)

Some exciting news. Planet Money has a book coming out and we're going on tour. The book is called Planet Money A guide to the economic forces that shape your life. I will be at the Pittsburgh show in April. If you can't come to that one, there are 12 stops on our tour. We'll be in New York, DC, Portland, one in Oregon, Chicago, Seattle, a bunch of others. Every stop will have different hosts and guests and you'll get an exclusive tote bag with your ticket while supplies last. Get tickets at the link in the show notes or go to planetmoneybook.com and thank you. Thank you. We have some photos and videos of the robot chef in action on our Instagram. We're PlanetMoney and give us a follow while you're there.

Justin Kraymond (28:06)

This episode was produced by Sam Yellowhorse Kessler. It was edited by Jess Jiang. It was fact checked by Ciara Juarez and engineered by Robert Rodriguez with help from Sina Lofredo. Interpretation help from Huo Jingnan. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money's Executive producer. Special thanks to the National Restaurant Association.

Erica Barris (28:26)

I'm Erica Barras.

Justin Kraymond (28:27)

And I'm Justin Kraymond. This is npr. Thanks for listening.

Sponsor Announcer (28:37)

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