Planet Money complains. To learn.

Summary

Planet Money: Complaints to Learn – Episode Summary

Title: Planet Money complains. To learn.
Host: Sarah Gonzalez
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Podcast: Planet Money by NPR

---

1. Introduction to Planet Money’s Complaints Segment

In this episode of Planet Money, host Sarah Gonzalez introduces a unique segment titled "Planet Money Complaining," where team members voice their daily annoyances with the intent to delve deeper into the economic and societal factors underpinning these frustrations.

Sarah Gonzalez [00:17]:
"I was out on maternity leave... Why in the world do stores send me so many emails?"

---

2. The Team's Pet Peeves

The episode kicks off with team members sharing their minor yet persistent irritations:

• James Sneed [01:50]:
  "Driving is terrible. There's like traffic everywhere. Nobody knows how to drive. Everything's expensive. Nothing. Nothing's cheap."

• Mary Childs [01:50]:
  Echoes the sentiment, emphasizing the desire to focus on petty annoyances rather than grand global issues.

• Alex Goldmark [02:00]:
  Highlights frustration with coffee shops charging for refills, which he perceives as diminishing the cozy coffee experience.

---

3. The Email Overload Dilemma

A significant portion of the episode revolves around the inundation of marketing emails from various stores, exploring why businesses persist with this strategy despite evident consumer annoyance.

Sarah Gonzalez [05:07]:
"I get an email a day from every store I have ever interacted with... they're conditioning me to just click, click, click, click, click, delete."

Expert Insight with Cynthia Price

Cynthia Price, an email marketing expert from Litmus, discusses the effectiveness and rationale behind aggressive email marketing strategies.

Cynthia Price [07:44]:
"For every $1 spent on email marketing, there is a 42 to $48 return on investment for the store."

Key Points:

• High ROI: Email marketing remains one of the most cost-effective strategies for businesses, offering substantial returns compared to other forms of advertising.
• Consumer Behavior: Stores target individuals who have previously engaged or purchased, making recipients more likely to respond.
• Tactics and Risks: While some brands execute email marketing adeptly, excessive emailing risks consumer burnout, leading to higher unsubscribe rates and diminished brand perception.

Sarah Gonzalez [09:12]:
"It's just more likely that you will buy something again, which just is... like an entirely different world to play in."

Cynthia Price [09:48]:
"Customers unsubscribe because they're so annoyed by it. Or they just tune them out entirely."

---

4. The Economics of Customer Satisfaction

The discussion delves into whether maintaining high customer satisfaction is economically viable for businesses, especially when small gestures (like free refills) could set unsustainable precedents.

Kristin Deal [14:01]:
"The incremental benefit of him being a little bit happier with this is probably not worth their cost."

Sarah Gonzalez [15:19]:
"Customer happiness is not as valuable as you might think it is."

Key Concepts:

• Hedonic Adaptation: Over time, consumers become accustomed to positive experiences, reducing their lasting impact and raising future expectations.
• Business Perspective: Companies prioritize profit maximization over incremental customer satisfaction enhancements, as the costs often outweigh the benefits.

---

5. Kenny Malone’s Umbrella Grievance

Adding variety to the complaints, Kenny Malone criticizes umbrellas for their selfish design, which inadvertently inconveniences others.

Kenny Malone [17:48]:
"The umbrella is an inherently selfish thing. You build a little bubble around yourself that is gonna poke other people, take up too much room, pour water on other people."

---

6. The Right to Repair Movement and Appliance Longevity

A central theme emerges around the challenges of repairing household appliances, epitomized by Alex Goldmark's struggle with a broken microwave.

Alex Goldmark [20:14]:
"My microwave broke... I want to try to fix it. Like it's just a thing I believe in."

Interview with Stuart Cowder from Mr. Appliance

Stuart Cowder provides a professional perspective on the repair industry, highlighting the economic and logistical barriers to appliance repair.

Stuart Cowder [21:25]:
"Our number one competitor is the price of a new appliance."

Key Insights:

• Manufacturers’ Intent: Many brands design appliances to be difficult or unfeasible to repair, pushing consumers towards purchasing new units.
• Economic Viability: Repairs often cost nearly as much as new appliances, disincentivizing consumers from opting for fixes.
• Skilled Labor Shortage: High costs and the specialized knowledge required for repairs contribute to the decline of skilled labor in the U.S.
• Right to Repair Movement: Advocates argue for legislation that mandates manufacturers to provide repair information and parts, empowering consumers and repair professionals alike.

Sarah Gonzalez [24:32]:
"Just because it's designed to be repaired does not mean that it will make sense financially to repair it."

Stuart Cowder [25:38]:
"It's a very high skilled trade. It takes a long time to learn it."

---

7. The Psychological Toll of Complaining

The episode concludes by addressing whether venting frustrations offers true catharsis or exacerbates stress.

Research Highlight:
Venting may increase stress unless accompanied by perspective-shifting dialogue, which was facilitated in this episode through expert insights and discussions.

Kristin Deal [16:05]:
"We adapt to that and we get accustomed to that."

Sarah Gonzalez [17:10]:
"Venting may not actually be good unless the person you're venting to can help broaden your perspective."

---

8. Closing Remarks and Production Credits

Sarah Gonzalez wraps up the episode by acknowledging the team behind the scenes and reflecting on the cathartic experience of airing grievances constructively.

Sarah Gonzalez [28:10]:
"This episode of Planet Money was produced by the one and only James Need and edited by Marianne McCune... Thanks for listening to us. Bent Foreign."

---

Key Takeaways

• Email Marketing Efficiency: Despite consumer annoyance, email remains a highly effective marketing tool due to its high ROI and targeted approach.
• Customer Satisfaction Economics: Small gestures to enhance customer satisfaction may not always be economically sustainable for businesses.
• Right to Repair Challenges: The current market dynamics disincentivize appliance repairs, leading to increased consumer costs and a decline in skilled repair labor.
• Psychological Impact of Complaining: Constructive venting accompanied by informed perspectives can mitigate stress, unlike mere expression of frustration.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sarah Gonzalez [00:17]:
  "Why in the world do stores send me so many emails?"

• James Sneed [01:50]:
  "Driving is terrible. There's like traffic everywhere. Nobody knows how to drive."

• Alex Goldmark [02:00]:
  "We don't do free refills. And then you have to buy an entire another like 3 to $6 cup of coffee. Outrageous."

• Cynthia Price [07:44]:
  "It's incredibly effective."

• Kristin Deal [14:01]:
  "Hedonic adaptation."

• Kenny Malone [17:48]:
  "The umbrella is an inherently selfish thing."

• Stuart Cowder [21:25]:
  "Our number one competitor is the price of a new appliance."

• Sarah Gonzalez [17:10]:
  "Venting may not actually be good unless the person you're venting to can help broaden your perspective."

---

This episode seamlessly blends everyday frustrations with economic analysis, offering listeners a deeper understanding of how seemingly trivial annoyances reflect broader market and societal trends.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Discover. Accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. [e-mail] credit card.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

This is Planet Money from NPR. So, alright. I was out on maternity leave for a while and I don't know, something about that time just made me view things in the world differently. I was questioning why everything is the way that it even is. Contemplating the big questions, like why in the world do stores send me so many emails? An email a day from every store I have ever bought anything from, ever. Why things like that, you know, so, okay, yeah, no, not the most important issues of our time, but like that little pet peeve that just like gets you every single time you open your email. I actually really need to know how bombarding us with email like this doesn't backfire on them. Like, let's get to the bottom of this. And I was certain that other people at Planet Money also had little petty annoyances that once we understand them, could maybe make us less bitter about it all. So I told everyone, come to me with your complaints. Vent to me what is annoying you in the world that I can help make sense of. And I'm just gonna say some of us really needed the catharsis. James Sneed, you have a list? Sure, yeah. Okay. Like, driving is terrible. There's like traffic everywhere. Nobody knows how to drive. Everything's expensive. Nothing. Nothing's cheap. Nothing's cheap. Mary Childs.

[Advertiser]

Oh, you know, I wish that we had peace on earth.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

We're not interested in the big ones. We want petty.

[Advertiser]

Okay, right. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Lexi Horowitz. Ghazi. What's your beef? You got some beef?

[Alex Goldmark]

Okay, my beef is. Oh, I'm so sorry, sir. We don't do free refills. And then you have to buy an entire another like 3 to $6 cup of coffee. Outrageous.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Alex Goldmark, Planet Money's boss. Boss.

[Alex Goldmark]

Yeah, it was about my microwave.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Okay, okay.

[Alex Goldmark]

The short version is my microwave broke. I'm now mad at like all appliance designers. Sad for skilled labor in the U.S. like, this took me on a journey.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

I think I haven't gotten a single thing fixed since like 1999. Like, I think I just go, like, buy a new product.

[Alex Goldmark]

Okay, well, here's what I'm thinking. I don't want to live in that world. I want to live in a world where we can like, fix.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yes, hello. And welcome to Planet Money Complaining. I'm Sarah Gonzalez and we are complaining for the sake of learning we can't tackle world peace. But there was a theme to some of our complaints. We are annoyed consumers. So we are going to try to understand the other side, the annoyers today on the show why appliance companies maybe don't want us to repair things. The very sad thing about satisfaction, like customer satisfaction, that could keep cafes from giving you that little top off and the bane of my existence, 70% off sale email. Why do stores keep sending them?

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more. This message is from Spectrum Business. From independently owned storefronts just open for business to established professional services run from large offices, Spectrum is committed to delivering connectivity solutions for any size business. Create a plan made for your business with fast, reliable Internet, TV packages, phone mobile services and more. All backed by the Spectrum commitment. From one employee to thousands, Spectrum keeps your business connected. Learn [e-mail] business so can I just.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Can I like vent to you for a little bit? Yes. I know I just met you. I called up Cynthia Price to give her my genius idea that stores should send less emails because Cynthia works with stores that send these emails. Okay, so I, I get an email a day from. It seems like every store I have ever interacted with ever in any way, shape or form. And I feel like something's not working. Like, what could these brands be thinking? Like, they are conditioning me to not open their emails ever because it's too many emails. They're conditioning me to just click, click, click, click, click, delete. And also they are kind of making me hate them a little bit.

[Cynthia Price]

Can I ask you some questions? I'm just curious.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah. Cynthia is an email marketing expert at an email marketing company called Litmus. And for some reason, Cynthia loves getting store emails.

[Cynthia Price]

It's a browsing opportunity for me. It's a break from my day.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

I will say I do enjoy clicking and deleting. I'm an Inbox zero girl. Like, I was just about to ask.

[Cynthia Price]

You if you were an Inbox zero person. I mean, that, that, that is part of the difference between me and you.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

If you, like me, think that email has gotten out of control. We are right. Cynthia says stores send more emails than ever. Okay, if I open my Gmail right Now it's like Chase Massage, Envy, Thrive, Market Chase, Carter's, Carter's, Carter's, Carter's.

[Cynthia Price]

Why is Carter's emailing you so much?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Carter's emails me four times a day, every single day. Cynthia, what is that? Carter's is a kid's clothing store.

[Cynthia Price]

Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a lot.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Like, who buys things from an email that they get?

[Cynthia Price]

A lot of people.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah, of course they're sending emails because it works. But how, how could this possibly work? It's like a great form of marketing. It is.

[Cynthia Price]

There are very few tactics that you can use as effectively as immediately as email.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

We're out of luck, guys. Of all the forms of marketing, email has one of the highest returns on investment. We know this because stores can usually see when we open their emails. So there's data, and here's how it all plays out. Let's say you're a store with a hundred thousand people on your email list, and you send out an email that's like, spring deals are in bloom or 70% off your winter faves. Now, something like 20 to 40% of people will open that email, like, see it. That doesn't mean they're actually clicking through to your store's website, though, to see any of your spring deals.

[Cynthia Price]

On a good day, 3% of those people total are going to click on your email. That's not to mention the people that are going to buy from it.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah, just like 3,000 of the 100,000 people you emailed are going to click through to your store and click. Even fewer are actually gonna buy something. So not that many people fight, but some do, and that's worth it. For every $1 spent on email marketing, there is a 42 to $48 return on investment for the store. That's the average.

[Cynthia Price]

Yep.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And that's a real stat.

[Cynthia Price]

It's a real stat.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

4,000% return on investment.

[Cynthia Price]

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it is incredibly effective.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Part of that is just that email is cheap. Right. You're paying for someone to write an email, maybe make it pretty. Uh, but the bigger part is that email has such a high return on investment. Because you invited these stores into your.

[Cynthia Price]

Inbox, you have actually raised your hand and said, yeah, send me promotional emails in some way, shape or form.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

You at some point liked what they were selling or even bought something. That's how you ended up on their email list. So it's just more likely that you will buy something again, which just is.

[Cynthia Price]

Like an entirely different world to play in. As a marketer than it would be if I was putting up a billboard on the highway or just trying to target everyone on Instagram who is between the ages of 20 and 25. I mean, those are way different scenarios.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

It's expensive to get your ad in front of people online who might not even like what you're selling. And sure, Instagram marketing is also relentless, and it feels like all social media just knows everything about our wants and likes and our buying patterns. But Cynthia says email marketing is still usually more effective because they just know that we want their content. But do we, though? No, I just sign up because when you buy something online, you have to put your email if you want the receipt.

[Cynthia Price]

Yeah, you just wanted the transactional emails that say, like, when's my. Where's my shipping?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

That's all I want for every store. All right. Cynthia says some brands. Some stores, they do do email marketing very well. Like, they have cult followings. There's a snowboarding gear company that sends out emails when there's fresh snow on the mountains targeted to your location, like the closest mountain to you with fresh snow. That seems useful, inundating you with emails. Cynthia says, I was right. It is risky.

[Cynthia Price]

What they're training you to do is block them out, and you're going to unsubscribe because you're so annoyed by it. Or you will completely learn to just completely tune them out, and you won't even look at what the subject line says at all. You probably are already there.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Oh, I'm there. And every couple of months, I will do, like, a massive unsubscribe purge, which Cynthia says is kind of like the biggest F in marketing land. Like, you had me and you blew it. You lost me. But it doesn't really matter because someone else will like it. So some stores don't really care if they lose me and maybe even damage their reputation with me. I have to wake up every single morning to 30 marketing emails just because someone else out there is gonna buy something. All right, who else has to get something off their chest?

[Advertiser]

I know I have things to complain.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

About, but, Mary Childs, we should all.

[Advertiser]

Be on the same time zone, which.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Would mean, like, nighttime is daytime for some people. That would mean that perhaps you and I wake up at what is called 10pm and we go to work, and.

[Advertiser]

The sun is out and it's shining.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

I'm just gonna squash this one right away. You don't want to go to work at 10pm and it's daylight outside. It's just called 10pm what do you.

[Advertiser]

Care what it's called?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

AM. PM.

[Advertiser]

That's just made up. You were a baby when you learned that. It doesn't matter.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

I don't know. Countries of the world consider it and cafes of the world consider Alexi Horowitz Ghazi's next gripe. Basically, Alexi hates it when coffee shops charge him for refills. It just like taints the whole cozy coffee shop experience for him. Makes him not want to even go back. Like at least give him a discounted refill. He's a reasonable guy.

[Alex Goldmark]

Some places they'll say, give me a buck. How about an extra dollar? That's pretty chill.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

And then it makes you want to be like, here's an extra dollar in the tip jar. You know what I mean?

[Alex Goldmark]

Exactly. We are on the same team. I don't. I feel like we're on opposite when they're charging me for the refill.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

This is just like regular coffee, not like the fancy. That's not like a mocha chuck or something. It's just like straight up. Straight up like coffee.

[Alex Goldmark]

Black cup of coffee. No. No adulterants.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Oh, oh. No sugar. No cream, no sugar, no nothing. The gesture of a free little top off. When he's setting up shop at a cafe, ordering snacks. Spending money would go a long way for Alexi. He says it would make him so loyal. He'd be like the best repeat customer. He thinks so. He wants to know why so many coffee shops don't see the benefits of offering customers a free refill on like a small 12 ounce cup. Can I ask you, do they make a 16 ounce cup?

[Alex Goldmark]

Yeah, I could buy the larger cup.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Isn't that just like the free refill?

[Alex Goldmark]

No, look, there's a problem with that. It gets cold way too fast.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

It gets cold. You're totally.

[Alex Goldmark]

It's just a mood thing. It's just a mood thing. It's just the tiniest signal I get about what kind of business this is for Alexi.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

It's less about the money or even what's practical. It's more about how all of this makes him feel in a coffee shop. So I called up a sort of expert in how we experience things.

[Kristin Deal]

I study both experiences that cost something as well as experiences that don't cost something. So I'm really interested in how paying attention to certain things gives us more or less enjoyment.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So, yes, enjoyment. Kristin Deal studies joy, technically satisfaction, at the University of Southern California. Like the joy we get out of experiences. She teaches consumer behavior, among other things. And I'm just going to say it. Kristin is very joyful.

[Kristin Deal]

I'm generally a happy person, I think. And my advisor told me that people either study what they're good at or what they're bad at.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Okay. I think this is the perfect match.

[Kristin Deal]

I think I have some insights there. Yes. Much more complicated question than you would think it is.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

I agree. First of all, Kristin says we can blame diners for the expectation of free drinks. Right.

[Kristin Deal]

Because they're the ones who kind of suggested to us that that's something normative, like the norm for a diner, maybe. Still, like, I walk around with this, like, coffee pot that has the coffee burned on the bottom, right?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah, Diner coffee.

[Kristin Deal]

But, you know, they also tend not to be the ones who are profit maximization entities.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Sorry, but a coffee shop is not a diner. They don't particularly want you to linger taking up seats maybe for hours with just your $5 coffee. So even if a free refill would make Alexi happy, the incremental benefit of.

[Kristin Deal]

Him being a little bit happier with this is probably not worth their cost.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So even for like a little top off.

[Kristin Deal]

Yeah, it's just a little top up to you. But times 24 7, it's still an expense.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Coffee shops are just going to do what makes them the most profit. Right. That's why they don't do this. Our extra happiness isn't worth it. The man. So if Alexi is going to be happy in a coffee shop, he's going to need to charm the workers. Get the rogue employee that's like, I'm supposed to charge you for this, but, like, I'm not going to charge you. And then you're like, yes, we're in this together.

[Kristin Deal]

Okay, so that is actually research. And it's something like that.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

There's research on how satisfying good surprises actually make us.

[Kristin Deal]

That works the first time, but then the next time he was like, okay, where's the rogue employee here?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Turns out customer happiness is not as valuable as you might think it is. The problem for companies is that when they give things out for free as a surprise, we come to expect it the next time. And we are not happy if we don't get it. Yeah. And then you're like, is Jack working today? Is Jack here? Because he's normally the guy who gives me my tea. Kristin says there's actually a sad ending to anything that brings us satisfaction.

[Kristin Deal]

We adapt to that and we get accustomed to that.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Even if the rogue employee always reliably gave us the rogue free refill, or even if it wasn't rogue at all. If it was company policy like Alexi wants it to be, they could do the exact same thing that made us happy last time, but we're just not as happy. That is sad.

[Kristin Deal]

Yeah, I think that's sad. But it's called hedonic adaptation.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Hedonic adaptation or the hedonic treadmill. The theory behind this is basically that you don't just go up, up, up in happiness forever. For instance, as you make money and you can buy more and more things, your expectations also rise. This seems like a good reason for a coffee shop to not give free refills because they're like, oh, whatever, you're just gonna get mad at us about something later on anyways.

[Kristin Deal]

It definitely will, like, give your colleague a bigger bump the first time than the fifth time. No question asked.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah, yeah, okay. I'm gonna tell him. Just suck it up. Cause we're just gonna be dissatisfied eventually anyway. Cause we're terrible people. Cause people are terrible.

[Kristin Deal]

On the upside, that got us out of the caves, right? If we had been happy in the caves, we wouldn't have ventured out.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yes, she did just say on the upside. Dissatisfaction is why we came out of the caves. By the way, Alexi might be onto something here because Starbucks, of all coffee shops, is bringing back some free refills, which might sound very exciting now, but we know the excitement will fade after the break. Why it's so hard to fix things these days. Hint, it's all by design.

[Kenny Malone]

But first, yes, umbrellas are the worst.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

A quick complaint from Kenny Malone.

[Kenny Malone]

The umbrella is an inherently selfish thing. You build a little bubble around yourself that is gonna poke other people, take up too much room, pour water on other people. An umbrella has negative consumption externalities is how we would put this in the econ world. You use it, you benefit. I'm happy for you, but you are making my life worse when you use the umbrella. So can we just stop? This message comes from NPR sponsor Attio. Atteo is the CRM for the AI era. Connect your email and Attio instantly builds your CRM with every company, every contact, and every interaction you've ever had enriched and organized. Build AI powered automations and use its research agents to tackle some of your most complex business processes, freeing you to focus on what matters the most. Building your company. Start your free [e-mail] NPR this message comes from Capital One with the Venture X card. Earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy. Plus get premium benefits at a collection of hotels. When Booking through Capital One Travel what's in your wallet? Terms Apply [e-mail] this message comes from ADP. ADP knows any new technology, any old competitor, any trendy thing, even a trendy thing that everyone knows isn't a great idea, but management just wants us to give it a try for a bit. Can change the world of work. So whether it's a last minute policy change or adding a new company holiday, ADP designs forward thinking solutions to help businesses take on the next anything. ADP always designing for people.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

All right, Alex Goldmark, Planet Money's executive producer. His microwave broke and he got ranty. And just like the perfect amount of concerned about the future of fixing things.

[Alex Goldmark]

I go to use the microwave and it just doesn't work. It doesn't turn on the little digital clock. Doesn't tell you the time. I've got one of the ones that goes over the stove, the light underneath, it doesn't work, Nothing. And it seems pretty, pretty obvious to me that like a fuse blew. Like that's just the way it broke, right?

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Alex wants to fix the fuse himself. Even though you apparently definitely should not try to do this. It can be very, very dangerous. But there's no like fuse panel on the microwave, no little door to open where he can swap it out. And he's like, oh come on, why would you bury the fuse?

[Alex Goldmark]

So I'm being a little dramatic with my fuse panel, but it's a stand in for, why don't we design things for repair? Like a appliance that is in your house made out of lots of metals and like toxic parts.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

He doesn't want to throw it out.

[Alex Goldmark]

I want to try to fix it. Like it's just a thing I believe in. And I'm so sure it's a fuse.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

But with no fuse panel, it's more complicated than Alex can handle. And he calls up repair people and.

[Alex Goldmark]

Most of them are like, we don't repair microwaves. Like they're too small, like it's too little. It's not even worth it.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

But the manufacturer, they have their official repair people, right? So he calls them up and they're like, cool.

[Alex Goldmark]

We will send somebody. It will be $179 for them to show up. Then it will be $200 an hour, billed every six minutes in increments as they do the repair plus the parts.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

It was Gonna cost Alexander $981 to fix his broken microwave and just $793 to buy a new one, have someone deliver it and install it. Where's the incentive to fix things.

[Stuart Cowder]

Sarah, there's a saying in our business. Our number one competitor is the price of a new appliance.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Oh, this is Stuart Cowder with the repair company Mr. Appliance. Wait, are you. Are you Mr. Appliance?

[Stuart Cowder]

I'm Mr. Appliance. New York City. I own the New York City franchises.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Stewart has repair people driving to people's homes all over the city, and he has his own complaints about that, like expensive parking, tolls, congestion pricing.

[Stuart Cowder]

I mean, ridiculous things.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Stuart, Mr. Appliance is very proudly non woke, as he says.

[Stuart Cowder]

Yes, very good.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Very proud of his Queens, New York accent.

[Kenny Malone]

Oh, of course.

[Stuart Cowder]

It was my nickname in college.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

What was your nickname in college? Queens.

[Stuart Cowder]

Queens.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Oh, that is such a great nickname. And Stuart is based in Manhattan where Alex's broken microwave was and where Alex got his decently expensive repair quote. Yeah, $200 an hour, I think, is the going rate. Does that seem right?

[Stuart Cowder]

Seems cheap to me.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Oh. Stuart asks me a bunch of questions about Alex's microwave, which I'm going to let Alex take.

[Stuart Cowder]

First of all, how old is the microwave?

[Alex Goldmark]

Five years.

[Stuart Cowder]

How much did you pay for the microwave?

[Alex Goldmark]

$400.

[Stuart Cowder]

Okay, and what brand is it?

[Alex Goldmark]

Bosch.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Bosch. All right.

[Stuart Cowder]

Knowing the brand is very important, and the reason for that is some brands make their units easier to repair than others.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah. Stewart says several manufacturers make products that are not meant to be repaired at all.

[Stuart Cowder]

They make the repair difficult. They put the replacement parts in difficult spots. They make it time consuming, hard to get to, hard to take apart. They just. They make it difficult. As opposed to other companies that make repairs very easy.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

This is what I'm talking about. It's like some appliances, even if you're like the handiest handy person, because the.

[Stuart Cowder]

Manufacturer doesn't want it.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

All right. Some manufacturers put parts in difficult to reach places because they want you to rely on them for repairs. There's actually a whole right to repair movement of people saying we shouldn't have to rely on the manufacturer. We should have access to the tools and information we need to repair the things that we have bought. Some states have laws that give people the right to repair, but then other brands just actually make it impossible for anyone to repair. Like, if the part breaks, they do not make the replacement part. It doesn't exist. So you have no option. You have to throw the appliance out and buy a new one. If you ask Stuart, manufacturers do this because they don't really make any money when you repair things. They make money when you buy a new appliance. But it's not just that. Sometimes brands are just making things in the cheapest way possible. Like one brand makes a part out of 100% steel when another one makes it out of 100% plastic. So it's just not meant to last that long. Which on the bright side means that there are cheap appliances available. Everyone can have them. Alex's microwave is apparently not one of those brands.

[Stuart Cowder]

No, no, Bosch is actually. Their products are meant to be repaired and that doesn't mean it's cost effective to repair them. But they're meant to be repaired and that means Bosch will make parts for them for many years.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah. Just because it's designed to be repaired does not mean that it will make sense financially to repair it. A repair person has to come to you. Right.

[Stuart Cowder]

It's a very high skilled trade.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

Yeah.

[Stuart Cowder]

It takes a long time to learn it. And you're not just learning how to fix one appliance or learning how to fix all appliances.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

If you have to know how to fix a microwave, you have to also know how to fix a dishwasher and a washing machine. Stoves, which mean you need to know plumbing, electrical. There could be gas leaks, pretty heavy lifting. A refrigerator. Right. And this was Alex's point at the very beginning of the show, that the high cost of repair makes him sad for the future of this skilled labor in the US he wants to be able to, to use that labor, but when it becomes so expensive, it's like, well, yeah, just buy the other one.

[Stuart Cowder]

That's just way of the industry.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So, and you guys try to like, oh, let's bring down our prices. But like, you're just, you're stuck. You, you can't bring them down for us.

[Stuart Cowder]

It costs what it cost. And sometimes this is nothing you can do. The repair is more expensive than the appliance, but a lot of times the customer still repairs it because it matches the kitchen. It has custom cabinetry. The new one is different. It's a different size. They'd have to call a carpenter.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

So your bread and butter is kind of like people with a fancy modern kitchen.

[Stuart Cowder]

High end. Yeah, we go with the high end appliances. If it was a $500 microwave, we wouldn't even come out. We tell you, go buy a.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

The repair market. It's a higher end market, by the way. Alex did not buy a new microwave. A repair person came to him and actually told him exactly what the problem was and where he could go on YouTube to fix it himself, which again, oh, you should not do.

[Stuart Cowder]

Never.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

What about like, if your own microwave breaks, would you know how to fix your own microwave?

[Stuart Cowder]

I wouldn't even try.

[Sarah Gonzalez]

I'm gonna tell my boss that. So those are our gripes. And didn't it feel good complaining catharsis? Well, apparently recent research has shown that venting and letting it all out can actually make you more riled up, more stressed out. Venting may not actually be good unless the person you're venting to can help broaden your perspective. See the other side, which we did. Right. This is a very. Okay, this is. I'm gonna sound ridiculous. Erica Barris I cannot stand little free libraries. We have free libraries. They are actual libraries. They are called libraries. Erica this is a genius grievance. This episode of Planet Money was produced by the one and only James need and edited by Marianne McCune. It was fact checked by the amazing Sierra Juarez and engineered by James Willits, with help from Jimmy Keeley. Alex Goldmark is Planet Money's executive producer. Special thanks to Jamal Miller at Intuit Mailchimp. I'm Sarah Gonzalez. This is npr. Thanks for listening to us. Bent Foreign.

[Kenny Malone]

This message comes from Tourism Australia. Australia, a land of contrast where white sand beaches are almost as plentiful as flat white coffees and where you can go away for a vacation, yet somehow feel right at home. Explore [e-mail] this message comes from Capella University. At Capella, you'll learn relevant in demand skills you can apply in the workplace right away. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].

[Advertiser]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Dana Farber Cancer Institute, where hundreds of researchers and clinicians make new discoveries inspired by the work of previous Dana Farber scientists. See why nothing is as effective against cancer as a relentless succession of breakthroughs. Learn more about their momentum. Go to danafarber.org everywhere.