The Business of Heated Rivalry

Summary

Planet Money — “The Business of Heated Rivalry” (March 4, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the unexpected runaway success of Heated Rivalry, a steamy, LGBTQ+-centered hockey drama from Canada, and uses it as a lens to explore the differences between the Canadian and US television business models. Host Kara Swisher talks with creators Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady about creative funding structures, production strategies, intellectual property (IP) ownership, and how streaming and AI are shaping the industry. The discussion is lively, irreverent, and filled with unique insights on “business as culture” through the story of a show that’s upended expectations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

From Cult Hit to Economic Case Study [00:23–01:46]

• Heated Rivalry is introduced as a surprise global hit: a fictional hockey team’s TV jerseys sold out instantly, even though the show was made on a shoestring budget by TV standards.
• The hosts marvel at how a Canadian series, based on a women-authored queer romance, garnered so much international buzz—and sold out all associated merchandise.

How Canadian TV Makes Its Money [05:59–11:44]

• Brendan Brady explains the Canadian funding ecosystem:

  • Government subsidies, equity programs, and grants make up 40–60% of the budget (via tax credits and direct funding).

  • The broadcaster (e.g., Crave) typically contributes 20–30%, and the rest must be raised by producers themselves, sometimes requiring them to invest their own fees.

  • Unlike the US, Canadian producers almost always retain IP rights, giving them long-term merchandise, international sales, and creative control benefits.

    Notable quote:
    “We, as the producers, own all the underlying IP. ...That is a big...we are the studio, it is ours.”
    — Brendan Brady [10:22]

• Budget comparison:

  • Heated Rivalry was made for under $3 million CAD per episode—“deeply low” for an hour-long drama, compared to US averages of $4–10 million.

The Art of ‘Keeping it Tight’: Efficient Canadian Production [12:26–15:41]

• The team filmed six episodes in just 36 days, with all scripts finalized before production.
• They shot all episodes as if making one long movie (“block shooting”).
• Standard 10-hour workdays improved cost control and quality of life—especially for female-dominated departments (wardrobe, makeup, hair), combating the norm of grueling hours.
• Jacob Tierney calls his approach “anti-fascist filmmaking”:

  • Opposes “top-down” perfectionism and countless takes, emphasizing collaboration and ensemble work.

    Notable quote:
    “There’s a desire often for perfection that is, I think, not only unachievable, but also insane and cruel to be even attempting.”
    — Jacob Tierney [14:36]

    “Film and TV is an ensemble process. Otherwise, go write a book.”
    — Jacob Tierney [15:13]

The Value of Owning Intellectual Property [15:44–17:58]

• Retaining IP means creators benefit from long-term revenues, especially as merch demand explodes.

• In the US, networks buy outright; in Canada, producers keep rights but must “hustle” to finance the show.

• The team highlights how prior models rewarded creators for their hits long-term.

  Notable quote:
  “For a hundred years this business was run on the idea that creators and the people who made it got to own and benefit from what they did for their entire lives. And I think that’s something worth fighting for.”
  — Brendan Brady [17:39]

Streaming’s Effects on Storytelling [20:21–23:35]

• Kara plays a Matt Damon clip (from Joe Rogan) about streaming platforms demanding more “grabby” openings and repeating exposition, due to viewers’ split attention (“people are on their phones”).

• The creators say their show sidesteps these problems—the narrative depends on nuance, subtext, and tension; viewers must pay attention to “what’s not being said.”

• Brendan and Jacob acknowledge the trend toward simplification but insist some shows still demand engagement.

  Notable quote:
  “People saying, like, ‘This is a show you have to pay attention to. If you’re on your phone, you’re not going to get it because it’s so much about what is not being said, about catching looks between people.’”
  — Jacob Tierney [21:50]

Industry Shifts, Mergers, and Competition [23:43–25:56]

• The impact of mega-mergers (like Paramount’s bid to buy Warner Bros. and HBO) is complex:
  • The show's international distribution is territory-based; HBO and Crave’s relationship is crucial in Canada.
  • The creators are largely insulated creatively because HBO acquired, not produced, the show; future platforms will simply have “first dibs” on sequels.
• They call for more, not less, competition in streaming, opposing consolidation.

AI and the Future of Creativity [25:56–27:54]

• The creators are pragmatic but cautious about AI:

  • They see opportunity in AI for administrative tasks (budgeting, scheduling), but not for creative writing or direction.

  • “Friction” and human communication are essential for the creative process; seamlessness isn’t always the goal.

    Notable quote:
    “Those moments of friction...are hard to replicate. I think we underestimate the importance of friction in the creative experience.”
    — Brendan Brady [27:28]

What’s Next for the Team? [28:08–29:48]

• The success of Heated Rivalry has opened doors. The team teases an upcoming project, The King is Dead—a historical action-comedy created by Indigenous writer Tim Fontaine, about Indigenous characters sailing to England to attempt to kill King George III.
• The segment underscores their mission to center diverse, underrepresented voices with humor and originality.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s a romance. It’s from a romance.” — Kara Swisher, on the show’s joyful, unapologetic tone [07:53]
• “We shot all six episodes in 36 days... we block shot them like one giant movie.” — Brendan Brady [12:30]
• “The producers get to [own the IP]. ... The flip side in the US is you’re making way more money up front. I don’t think either is right or the other’s wrong. I just think our system is something to protect.” — Brendan Brady [15:58]
• “You just have to give me IP and they said, why do you have to have it? I said, it’s none of your business. Yeah, because I want it.” — Kara Swisher [17:39]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |--------------|-------------------------------------------------------| | 00:23–01:46 | Introduction: The merch phenomenon & US vs. Canada | | 05:59–11:44 | How Canadian production funding works | | 12:26–15:41 | Efficient Canadian filming; anti-fascist style | | 15:44–17:58 | The importance (and legacy) of IP ownership | | 20:21–23:35 | Streaming’s effect on creative style (feat. Matt Damon)| | 23:43–25:56 | Mergers & distribution: Impacts for creators | | 25:56–27:54 | AI’s role in production and creative “friction” | | 28:08–29:48 | Future projects & shifting cultural narratives |

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Tone & Takeaway

The conversation brims with irreverence and passion: Kara’s dry wit, the creators’ sardonic frankness about financing and creativity, and a sense that the Canadian TV business—humble, risky, but rewarding—may hold lessons for a bloated, risk-averse American industry. The episode ultimately champions inventive storytelling, economic models that reward true creators, and the value of friction, imperfection, and creative autonomy.

Recommended for listeners curious about how culture, economics, and business models shape what we see on screen, and what the future holds for entertainment’s power players—and underdogs.

Transcript

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[Kara Swisher]

This is Planet Money from npr.

[Kenny Malone]

The other day I saw an item of clothing I was very tempted to buy. Possibly the most I would have ever paid for an item of clothing. It was a Montreal Metros hockey jersey, $150. The Metros are a made up hockey team from the TV show Heated Rivalry. Official replica jerseys were on sale for $150, but totally sold out. In fact, every single item on the official Heated Rivalry merch site is sold out. A sign I, I suspect that the TV show's creators were not expecting this level of success. Heated Rivalry is a Canadian television show based on a Canadian romance book series. It's streamed in the US by hbo. It's about a pair of professional men's hockey players, rising superstars, star crossed lovers. Very steamy TV MA rated and it has been a giant hit.

[Kara Swisher]

I started watching it with my wife. I think we did it in two tranches and we loved it.

[Kenny Malone]

I love that in your house you refer to binges as Tron tranches. I feel like tranches.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you. Yes, we're very fancy people.

[Kenny Malone]

That's the perfect Kara Swisher. Yes, Kara Swisher. Journalist, podcaster, media icon, I dare say. And Kara has sort of owned the subject area of technology and business for the last 25 years. But today she is here to talk heated rivalry and business.

[Kara Swisher]

I think one of the things that really struck me of a couple of things is it caused somewhere between 2 and 2 and $3.6 million per episode to make, which is really low.

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah. On average, the show was made for a little under $3 million per episode Canadian. So like $2.2 million US and what struck Kara was the way that this scrappy little production in Canada was able to stretch that budget without the show looking cheap, getting way more bang for its buck than what she's seen on American productions.

[Kara Swisher]

If you've ever been on a Hollywood set and I've done on a couple, I was on the morning show. I'm in an upcoming movie with someone named Meryl Streep coming up. I've been in, but there's a lot going on. Right. And they film in this way that to me seemed. Seemed somewhat inefficient.

[Kenny Malone]

So, you know, directors may want lots of takes of the same scene, lots of coverage from different angles, reactions from everybody in the scene. Heated rivalry, on the other hand, will often stay on one character's face as a scene plays out, meaning they need fewer takes, fewer extras in the background. And the reason we're talking about all of this is because I have not been able to stop telling people what I've learned from a recent episode of Kara's podcast. That show is called Pivot. It's co hosted by NYU business professor Scott Galloway. And typically the show is about technology and business and antitrust. Lots of antitrust lately. But Kara took a break from that to talk to the creators of Heated Rivalry about the business of getting that show made. Because it's not just that. I learned Heated Rivalry was made very cleverly. What I learned was that the Canadian economic system of making TV and movies is completely different from how we do it in the us. Something I asked Kara about. I guess naively, it hadn't occurred to me to even think of an American business model versus a Canadian business model.

[Kara Swisher]

Sure.

[Kenny Malone]

Were you aware of this? I mean, you've been.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, no. I've covered Hollywood a lot because of the impact of digital. So I understand their economics quite well. And one of the things that had been a constant theme was the costs are so high in this country and there's got to be different economic systems that they could do really well.

[Kenny Malone]

So today we are giving the episode over to Kara and her interview with Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady, creators of Heated Rivalry. The Canadian business of entertainment lives in contrast to the US business. And I learned so much about the current state of both industries from this conversation. Oh, and also all that merch I mentioned at the beginning. Turns out it is a way bigger deal for Canadian creators. Kara's interview with Heated Rivalries Creators after the brain.

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[Kara Swisher]

So hi everyone. I'm Kara Swisher. Today we've got a special bonus episode, and it's not about anything terrifying or depressing. It's about the most addictive, delightful surprise cultural phenomena of the decade, heated rivalry. I'm joined today by the show's creator, Jacob Tierney, and executive producer Brendan Brady. Welcome, you two.

[Brendan Brady]

Thank you. Thanks, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

We've been beset by some tech issues, but nonetheless, the gays will prevail. The success of the show is about so many things. Queer joy, sex, inclusion. It's an amazing business story and that's really what I wanted to talk about. So one thing, this show has been a giant PR boost in your entire country. Here's Prime Minister Mark Carney at a recent media event.

[Mark Carney]

The world knows that Shane and Ilya are rising hockey stars who fall for each other as they face off in one of the greatest rivalries the game has ever known. A fundamental Canadian value is that people should be able to be whoever they want to be, to love whoever they want to love.

[Kara Swisher]

So the narrative has become that it was a little show out of Canada, obviously made in Canada because American disturbers were afraid of the sex content. But he sort of articulates it rather well, is that people are upset and divided and this brings a respite. But I think it's more than that. But why don't you start, Jacob?

[Jacob Tierney]

I mean, I think that there's, I think that what the show did in a kind of an unpreachy un, trying to teach you a lesson way, is just present queer joy. And I think that that's its soft power. You know, that's the thing that I think people are surprised by. And, and you know, there are obviously our queer lives are filled with trauma. And I get that. And we, I think we all know that. But I think that this show's desire to not focus on that, to focus on other parts of the Queer experience as fantasy. And I fully admit, right, it's a

[Kara Swisher]

romance, it's from a romance.

[Jacob Tierney]

I think that that's partly the reaction

[Kara Swisher]

to it, right, Brendan?

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah. So I think like the other part of this, which Jacob has talked about a lot and it was kind of how we were pitching this when we were going out to people, which is this is a story written by women and it's consumed primarily by women. And we don't take female desire and stories seriously in media. A lot of the times there's so many readers of all types of romance novels. They're there and they are yearning for these stories to be told. When we were pitching it, we were really crossing our fingers, hoping that we were right. We were like, there is a built in audience. So I think that was the other secret sauce in this is just like this is a massive fan base that have not had their stories taken seriously and they got to see it taken seriously and they loved it.

[Kara Swisher]

Talk about this, but getting it made like we talked on this success, on what it symbolizes, the difference between Canada and the U.S. though, even how these productions are funded. And let me play very quickly a part of Mark Carney's speech about that and how it was funded.

[Mark Carney]

Look, I'm a politician. I'm not above taking credit for the Canadian funding that helped you share this story. I might not have been here when the decision was made, but I'm here now. So, yeah, I made, I greenlit this thing. I stood up to the Americans.

[Brendan Brady]

That's amazing. So I, I think that like our show was made in the Canadian system and it is very different from the US we explain it, explain it for

[Kara Swisher]

people who don't understand.

[Brendan Brady]

So basically the Canadian film and TV system has subsidies and equity and grant systems that are propped up by the Canadian government. So we, you know, when you go to a broadcaster like we did with Crave, which is the streaming platform in Canada that commissioned the show, they go and say, okay, great, here is a license fee. Typically It'll run between 20 to 30% of the budget. Then we have a tax credit, both provincial and federal, and that brings another 20 to 30% of the budget. And then it's always that last little piece that you're looking for. Right. So the benefit to us in Canada as producers is it's unfortunate that we don't get necessarily the whole budget out of our broadcasters, but we as the producers own all the underlying ip. So that is a big.

[Kara Swisher]

Sell it to a studio.

[Jacob Tierney]

Exactly. We are the studio, it is ours system.

[Brendan Brady]

But the, the, you know, the limitations on that are you have to go then raise money. So how we did this with our show is we ended up talking to a couple of studios, some of them American, of them Canadian. And ultimately it wasn't the right fit from a creative perspective. And you know, we've, we understand where everybody was coming from. It is a, this was, you know, on paper didn't seem like an amazing massive hit right out the gate. And so luckily when we were going through this process, Crave's parent company, which is Bell Media. Bell Media is like if Comcast and Disney were merged into one in our country. They own everything from telecommunications to Internet to sports.

[Kara Swisher]

And they have divisions like Crave, which is extremely. Is that their only streaming platform?

[Brendan Brady]

They have others, yes, yes, it's their only streaming platform. And they had just acquired a distribution company called Spher Abacus out of the UK. And so we were looking for that last 30% of the budget and they came in for 20 more percent on a distribution advance. So the last 10% was. Jacob and I put in our producer fees and we put in almost all of our producer fees.

[Kara Swisher]

So what you would have earned for this, the fees that are standard, right?

[Brendan Brady]

That's exactly right.

[Kara Swisher]

What was the total budget here?

[Brendan Brady]

So we were just under 3 million Canadian an episode.

[Kara Swisher]

For people who don't know, it's very low for television shows. I mean the salary, it's low for

[Jacob Tierney]

a sitcom, it's deeply low for a

[Kara Swisher]

one hour drama, deeply low for most. Those are the salaries of certain people, depending. So, you know, obviously these were not well known people, but still, it's still an expensive thing. I think most US ones, I feel like 10 million is the lowest they make, right?

[Brendan Brady]

It depends. It's like between 4 to 10 million dollars an episode. Us is typical, depending on what your level is. But yeah, I mean costs have really skyrocketed over the last decade.

[Kara Swisher]

Is it less expensive to make this in Canada? From a production perspective?

[Brendan Brady]

No. We have an efficient model. And I mean, yes it is because we don't have the same level of money that is being thrown around. So we by necessity have to spend. But we also like did something here where we shot all six episodes in 36 days. Jacob directed all six of them. We block shot them like one giant movie. We talk about this when studios, especially US studios come and say, how do you guys do this? And we go, it's crazy. You have all of your episodes written before you go into prep. And that's typically when we lose people and they don't understand.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, because they write it through.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kara Swisher]

Although that's changing in the us it is.

[Jacob Tierney]

It has to. It's crazy to do it the other way. Especially when you're not doing 22 hours episodes anymore. Like back in the old model, when you're doing this volume of episodes where it's not possible to have them all

[Kara Swisher]

ready, we usually have writers on staff.

[Jacob Tierney]

Well, you have to just be writing all the time. But if you're doing. If the new model is eight to 10 episodes, there's almost no reason why this can't be accomplished before you start shooting.

[Kara Swisher]

So you start shooting. Go ahead.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, we start shooting and then we do 10 hour shoot days primarily. Like I'm not going to say it's not every day, but we try to keep our hours low. And there's a couple of reasons for this. A, as soon as you get into 12, 13 hours with cruise, you end up paying for an additional day by virtue of the overtime. But we also just feel that like, you know, my wife is an assistant costume designer. She was the assistant costume designer on this show. She's five months pregnant. The departments that. Thank you. The departments that get hooped, our hair, makeup, wardrobe with these pre calls a lot of the time. Who are those departments run by? Primarily women. And so we also just feel that like they're in our business. We need to change this mentality of endlessly shooting 15, 16 hour days. Which is where the costs balloon.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, right. What are you, a lesbian? What's happening here? Anyway, so, Jacob, talk about your production style. Besides being truncated, like making it tight, keep it tight kind of thing. You call it anti fascist. Explain what you mean by that.

[Jacob Tierney]

Well, I mean, I guess what I mean about that is there's a desire often for perfection that is, I think, not only unachievable, but also insane and cruel to be even attempting. There's no reason to do. If you're doing 25 takes of a scene because you don't like the performance of the actor. I'm an actor. I've been doing this since I was 4 years old. The problem is the scene, it's not the actor. You haven't written it properly. If you're not accomplishing what you need to accomplish, there's a fundamental issue. And by torturing people into repeating and repeating and repeating, I don't know what you're gaining. And so that's kind of.

[Kara Swisher]

I just did. I just did a. It was all day, I was like, why? I kept saying, why is it all

[Jacob Tierney]

Day to do nine different sizes on a close up is insane. All of this stuff is crazy. I do believe fundamentally that film and TV is an ensemble process. It is otherwise, go write a book, you know, go paint a picture. There's lots of ways to be in total control. So, you know, anti fascist might be a big statement, but it is kind of, it's a rejection of an idea that everything has to come from one person. And like what, you know, the brilliant

[Kara Swisher]

idea, it's very top down.

[Brendan Brady]

It's very top down.

[Kara Swisher]

So when you talk about owning this intellectual property, what does that mean now for you all? Because I own all my intellectual property, just so you know. And I think it's important explain why it is for you, especially in this space, because that's something that's been an anathema to the industry.

[Brendan Brady]

Well, I'll tell you what it means is like Jacob and I, you know, worked on a show called Letterkenny and Sh. And the producers of that show made it in Canada as well, had a robust merchandise business. And when we were in post production, we decided, because we have, we, you know, retained all the intellectual property behind the series that we wanted to take advantage of that and make a line of merchandise which we're doing, which is now incredibly like it's, it's become this amazing part of our business that we're super excited about. But it also means that ultimately, like when we, we made the decision to reinvest our fees, it was because we knew that if this goes really well, we're going to benefit for the next 25 years off of this. And that is the difference. And I think like what, you know, people always ask about, I guess you look at the Canadian system versus the American system, the Canadian system, you as the producers, if you want to take advantage of being a really, truly Canadian show, part of the like the offering is the broadcasters can't own the IP the producers get to. And some people will look at that, you know, the. But the flip side in the US is you're making way more money up front. I don't think that either is right or the other is wrong. I just think that our system is something to protect. For a hundred years this business was run on the idea that creators and the people who made it got to own and benefit from what they did for their entire lives. And I think that that's something worth fighting for.

[Kara Swisher]

I, I think so completely. At some point I wasn't going to make something for someone and I said, you just have to give me IP and they said, why do you have to have it? I said, it's none of your business. Yeah, because I want it.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

Because it's mine. It's not yours.

[Jacob Tierney]

It's like the old musician, right? It was like, own your own publishing.

[Sponsor Message Announcer]

Right.

[Jacob Tierney]

Because why would you let somebody else administer your work and take all the profit from it?

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah. And like we're gonna, we have opportunities and we will work in this system that doesn't have that and it'll be fine as well. But I just think that, like when we talk about, you know, there's so many reasons why budgets have exploded, you know, the economy, like the economy of scale on, on TV has just completely fallen out because we don't make episode enough episodes. We don't contain them into certain locations. But also it doesn't matter if you have a massive hit or kind of a middling hit. You seem to win no matter what at that level. So I think that there is something to look at as we move forward in these systems of like giving people back end again like these. These old ideas should be new.

[Kenny Malone]

After the break, more from Kara Swisher's conversation with the creators of Heated Rivalry, how how streaming is changing the way directors are asked to tell their stories and what Paramount's bid to buy Warner Bros. And HBO might mean for heated rivalry.

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[Kara Swisher]

We're back with executive producers Jacob Tierney and Brendan Brady. Who are the people behind this huge hit heated rivalry. I want to play something Matt Damon said on Joe Rogan last month about how streaming has impacted the creative process. Because a lot of it, part of it are people breaking free. Right. Like myself many years ago, where I have a lot of people coming to me, I'm like, it's great out here. Like, you don't need all that stuff. But let's talk. Let's hear what he had to say. And this is a very successful actor and producer.

[Jacob Tierney]

Sorry, you said Matt Damon.

[Brendan Brady]

Matt Damon.

[Sponsor Message Announcer]

Oh, okay.

[Brendan Brady]

Interesting.

[Jacob Tierney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

He's talking about the business.

[Jacob Tierney]

I've heard of him. I think you've heard of him.

[Matt Damon]

Like, for instance, Netflix. You know, standard way to make an action movie that we learned was, you know, you usually have like three set pieces. One in the first act, one in the second, one in the third. And, you know, you kind of. They kind of ramp up. And the big one with all the explosions, and you spend most of your money on that one in the third act. That's your kind of finale. And now they're, you know, they're like, can we get a big one in the first five minutes to get somebody? You know, we want people to stay tuned in. And Ken. And, you know, it wouldn't be terrible if you reiterated the plot three or four times in the dialogue, because people are on their phones while they're watching.

[Kara Swisher]

You know what I mean? So talk about that. He would, by the way, would make an excellent gay hockey player, but too old. Too old. An old gay hockey.

[Jacob Tierney]

Retired one.

[Brendan Brady]

Sure.

[Kara Swisher]

Retired.

[Jacob Tierney]

Listen, I should be clear. I love Matt Damon. I've always loved Matt Damon.

[Kara Swisher]

So talk about that. What's happening now in the creation. Do you, either of you, feel pressure?

[Jacob Tierney]

We've yet to really experience that, if I'm being perfectly honest, crave was not like that. And I will say that part of what the reaction to the show that has been so kind of interesting to me is people saying, like, this is a show you have to pay attention to. If you're on your phone, you're not going to get it because it's so much about what is not being said, about catching looks between people. It is dialogue as avoidance and obfuscation. And the storyline is actually really simple. They're in love. They can't admit it. So, like, it's actually not a super complicated plot in that way. But so much of it is about the ways in which they're avoiding each other, the ways in which they cannot speak. That's why the sex is so important, because that's when they're being honest. And so I think there is definitely A move towards oversimplification. That being said, you know, I don't. I wouldn't want to be too much

[Brendan Brady]

of a big deal about this.

[Jacob Tierney]

Like, everybody wants an opening that captures you.

[Brendan Brady]

Like, that's not new.

[Jacob Tierney]

Like, that's been a note since the dawn of time was crazy stories like, let me in. What's the first scene? Why are you capturing my attention? I don't think that's insane. And I think that this thing, you can see it, I think, in a lot of streamers, you know, where you're like, oh, boy, you've just explained a thing to me that I already know. I get that that can be frustrating. But I would also add, I am on my phone when I look up and realize you've said it to me this for the third time. And I'm like, yeah, you're not wrong. I did drip.

[Kara Swisher]

Right?

[Jacob Tierney]

But, like, and I think that there can be room for both, you know, entertainment and popcorn.

[Brendan Brady]

Y.

[Jacob Tierney]

Fun stuff that, like, I kind of don't care. And then every once in a while, something comes along and you need to pay attention, and that's okay, too. And then. And then it's up to you to choose. Do you. Is that too much for you? That's okay. Move it along.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, I actually didn't look at my phone. I have a rule, like, how many. How many text looks is it in a movie? How good is it if I don't pick it up at all?

[Jacob Tierney]

We have shows in my household with my boyfriend that we put on to be on our phone with. We're aware of this, and we think of them as, like, visual podcasts.

[Kara Swisher]

So when you have the acquisition of Warner, does that affect it?

[Jacob Tierney]

Not to our knowledge, but we have no idea.

[Kara Swisher]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, we don't. I think we don't. You know, we have no actual information on that. I would say, again, we just want more competition in the marketplace, because in Canada, what we have, like, the reason why we ended up on HBO around the world is because Crave and Bell Media have the exclusive rights to all of HBO's catalog in Canada. Yeah, we don't have. And so if we don't have hbo, you have Crave, and that has HBO on it. And so, like, if we don't have that on Crave, does that affect Crave? What happens to them? That's a big part of why people go there. I mean, now and now in heated rivalry, obviously. But, yeah, like, I think that it's a scary time as we see more and more mergers happening and I for one would love to see just more competition because I think it's way better when we have more.

[Jacob Tierney]

But what I would say too, I just, sorry. Is just that because we're an acquisition, you know, HBO is not actually creatively involved in the show. I think they like. They say nice things about it. Exactly. So we're not like. I think that that part is not really gonna change, at least in the foreseeable future.

[Kara Swisher]

But now, now that the show's blown up, they're not suddenly have an opinion about it? No.

[Jacob Tierney]

Cause they're still getting it for the same price. I think it's worked out great for them. It's worked out really well for them. Like this is a very successful acquisition and I mean it's clearly working well enough that I don't think they feel the, you know. Yeah, I think that this is just

[Kara Swisher]

like keep going, but it can go elsewhere. Right around the world.

[Jacob Tierney]

So it's been sold territory by territory or chunk of territory by territory. Territory in general pitch picked up by HBO outlets Sky in the UK and Ireland and in New Zealand. A couple of other exceptions to that rule. But, but, but basically what they do is they buy it and then they have an option on the second season and potentially third season. So they get. It's like a kind of a right of first refusal. So with. With an increase they get it. So it's not really even to be renegotiated. It's just kind of like you either want this or you don't. There's no input into the content.

[Kara Swisher]

Right, Right. I have a couple more quick questions. One is about obviously everyone here in the entertainment industry in LA seems to be in despair in many ways in terms of what's happening, including with competition with AI and stuff. Is there a big fear from you all about AI? Because some of the big hits this year have been the most non AI type of content like Sinners Weapons, Yours

[Jacob Tierney]

and will continue to be.

[Brendan Brady]

Listen, there is going to be a place for AI in how we do work in this business. I actually think that there are a lot of opportunities, but I think it is in that tool for creators, not as the creative engine behind costuming. I think like even scheduling and budgeting and prepping, like those kinds of things where you take an immense amount of time trying to just input data. So much of our jobs are data driven, like just trying to get information and I do think. Exactly. I think that those are the opportunities right away that we will see and where I would love for people to focus their attention because we were experiencing this. And I'm sure, Kara, you can. You have had this with your team. Those moments of friction when you're trying to explain something to someone and they don't get it, that is hard to replicate. That is hard to do with AI in a way that actually gets you to a place where you're like, okay, cool. We have now communicated together. I think we underestimate the importance of friction in the creative experience.

[Kara Swisher]

Yep. I would agree.

[Planet Money Sponsor Announcer]

That's.

[Kara Swisher]

That's exactly how I say it. I talk about it. I. The words tech people use are always seamless, frictionless, convenient. You know, they're always using those words. I'm like, no, friction's critical for you being here.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

You know, and. Yeah. What about you, Jacob?

[Brendan Brady]

Do you think about it all confuses me.

[Jacob Tierney]

No, is the answer. Like, I don't. I don't think. Like, I, again, like the way that. The way that Brendan speaks about it is like, that makes sense to me.

[Brendan Brady]

I'm like.

[Jacob Tierney]

I can imagine it helping me with some stuff, but, like, it's not gonna write for me. I don't. I don't want that either. I love what I do. I don't wanna. I don't want someone. I don't need that kind of help, is the way I would say.

[Sponsor Message Announcer]

Yeah.

[Kara Swisher]

So before we go, what would you want to do if you could do anything? Like, you guys are now the world is your oyster kind of thing like you can do. Obviously you're gonna do another sequence of this. Maybe two, three, whatever. What would you want to make?

[Jacob Tierney]

You know, we are being. I'm certainly being offered a lot of things, and they are. One of which in particular is a dream come true. So, yeah, I'm excited to be able to eventually talk about it, but I can't at this point.

[Brendan Brady]

We've got. Yeah. And we also. We have a whole productions company that we're running with, like, a lot in development. So. So it's about getting these projects, the projects that, you know, from a producer standpoint, what we really want to get made. We have a number of shows. The one that is about to go out is called the King is Dead. And I'm going to plug it right here because it's from an amazing, amazing indigenous writer out of Canada named Tim Fontaine. Crave is already signed on for development. We're looking for that other partner because it's basically, it's a action adventure comedy set in the 1700s. I know. Bear with us.

[Kara Swisher]

No, no. Hello, outlander.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah, 100%, but it's a comedy about a group of indigenous folks tired of all these white people coming to North America. They take a boat, traverse back to England in an attempt to kill King George iii.

[Kara Swisher]

Oh, my God.

[Brendan Brady]

So it's a revisionist history.

[Jacob Tierney]

It's like Monty Python energy. It's very funny. And we're very excited about that show.

[Brendan Brady]

Yeah. So that's in development with Crave right now, and we're very excited about that one.

[Kara Swisher]

All right, well, everybody loves you. All the boys are getting a lot of attention, which they must be having a ball, it looks like. But you guys deserve equal amounts of attention.

[Jacob Tierney]

Yeah, we really appreciate it. Thank you, Kara.

[Kara Swisher]

Thank you, Jacob.

[Brendan Brady]

Thank you.

[Kara Swisher]

And thank you, Brendan.

[Kenny Malone]

That original episode of Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin and engineered by Brandon McFarland. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. And a very, very special thanks this week to the whole team at Pivot for working with us on this. This episode of Planet Money was produced by James Sneed, edited by Jess Jiang, and fact checked by Lara Naiman. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer. I'm Kenny Malone. This is NPR and meet us at the Cottage.

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