The Planet Money Game: Test our prototype

Summary

Planet Money: "The Planet Money Game: Test our prototype" (October 4, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this episode, the Planet Money team continues their quest to create the ultimate board game based on economic principles. Partnering with the renowned game company Exploding Kittens, the show goes behind the scenes of turning economic concepts into a fun, playable game. The episode highlights the creative and business hurdles in game design—from nerdy staff brainstorming to pitching prototypes, iterating rules, and preparing for mass playtesting with listeners.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Birth of the Planet Money Game

• Initial Brainstorming: The Planet Money staff is tasked by Exploding Kittens to brainstorm economic game themes. They return with 17 ideas, ranging from elf retirement plans to apprentice wizard bankers. (02:09)
  • Funny Moment: "Think about this. There are elves. They live forever, but they have to plan for retirement. What do they do?" — Erica Barris (02:41)
• Early Reactions: Few of the ideas are instant hits, but some spark genuine interest, like the concept of compound interest or a "moral hazard" bank bailout game.
• Game Design Wisdom: Exploding Kittens co-founder Elan Lee explains two ways games are created: either starting from a game mechanic or a strong theme. The team concludes that, so far, they have "planted seeds for a path for the latter." (05:29)

2. Settling on the Core Idea: Market for Lemons

• Chosen Theme: The "Market for Lemons" concept, based on George Akerlof's famous economics paper about asymmetric information in used car sales, emerges as the favorite. (09:10)
• Why Lemons Works: The idea is compelling both for its name and as a game mechanic—a negotiation where one party knows more than the other. "The play pattern of two people trying to make a deal where one person has more information ... is a pretty well established gameplay pattern..." — Ian Klayman (10:59)

3. Playtesting and Mechanics Breakthrough

• Rapid Prototyping: The Exploding Kittens team iterates rapidly, experimenting with simple card mechanics using regular playing cards to mimic asymmetric information and deal-making. The team catches a genuine game design “aha!” moment on tape (15:06–15:53).
  • Quote: "Already. Interesting." — Ian Klayman, during the first test of a new mechanic (15:38)
• Mechanics at Work: They find nuance and tension in the decision-making, as sellers and buyers must bluff, strategize, and sometimes gamble with hidden information.

4. Balancing Fun and Economics

• Fear of ‘Econ Homework’: There is hesitation; the Planet Money hosts worry the game doesn't sufficiently teach the economics of market failure or asymmetric information. (18:08)
• Game Design Philosophy: Elan Lee reassures them, emphasizing that it's better to start with a fun game and layer in economic insight, not vice versa.
  • Quote: "...if we can get there with this, we'll be in a good place. And it's better to start with a really fun game and try to get there rather than vice versa, which is a much harder task." — Ian Klayman (19:09)
• Continuous Iteration: Testing leads to tweaks: balancing good and bad cards, introducing (and discarding) superpower cards, adjusting play time, etc. (21:02–22:11)
• Why Not Add More Stuff? Attempts to introduce extra mechanics (Monopoly money, longer play times, complex components) are countered by lessons from the game industry: people prefer short (15–20 minute) games, and keeping components all-paper helps profitability and manufacturing simplicity. (23:06–24:43)

5. Final Mechanic: Sharing Just Enough Information

• Game Evolution: The breakthrough that wins everyone over is allowing sellers to reveal one card in the deal—giving buyers some information but not the whole picture, better matching real-world asymmetric information. (26:48–27:32)
  • Memorable: "The seller now shows one of the cards in the deal. Everyone gets to see it. That's it. That's the big change." — Kenny Malone (27:24)
• Success: The Planet Money hosts play this version and affirm that it finally feels like an economic game, capturing the tension of decision-making with imperfect information. (28:05–28:13)

6. Bringing in the Gatekeepers

• Testing with the Experts: The prototype is brought to Jamie Wolanski, a game consultant who helps pitch games to retail giants like Target, for the ultimate verdict. (29:56)
  • Jamie likes the new, original game mechanic and says it's "mass friendly enough that ... casual games gamers will pick it up and have a blast playing it." (34:27)
• Importance of Packaging: Jamie notes a great name and appealing art are now critical to commercial success. (35:06)
  • Quote: "A good title or a bad title will just absolutely sink a really great game." — Carly McGinnis (35:06)

7. Open Call: Playtest with Listeners!

• Listener Involvement: The episode concludes with an enthusiastic invitation for listeners to playtest the prototype—available for free at planetmoneygame.com—and provide feedback. (36:19–37:06)
  • Quote: "This is your assignment. Put a game night on the calendar and download the printable prototype of our game." — Erica Barris (36:34)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “You just described the mechanic by which armies are built in Risk, which is great... I would call that half of an idea.” — Elan Lee on the compound interest idea (03:23)
• “I've never tried to plot that out on a graph. But I will bet there is a really nice correlation [between game intensity and people yelling/F-bombing].” — Ian Klayman (17:26)
• “The sweet spot for us in general is really to try to hit a 20 minute game, maybe 15 to 20 minutes. But if we can get maximum entertainment satisfaction ... in 20 minutes, we know we have a hit.” — Ian Klayman (23:06)
• “We want a game that an economist will pick up and say, oh, this is the greatest game.” — Erica Barris (18:39)
• "There is not a game out there that I can equate this to. So to me, gamers are going to be excited about playing a new concept." — Jamie Wolanski, after winning a playtest round (34:27)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:52 | Exploding Kittens partners with Planet Money; challenge set
• 02:41–05:26 | Brainstorming game ideas and Elan Lee's game design philosophy
• 09:10–11:21 | Choosing "Market for Lemons" as the core concept
• 13:00–15:53 | Early prototyping; capturing the aha moment on tape
• 17:00–19:09 | Balancing fun and education; the designers’ learning process
• 21:02–22:11 | Rapid iteration and lessons from game prototyping
• 23:06–24:43 | Why games are kept to paper components and 20-minute playtime
• 26:48–27:32 | The key mechanic change: revealing partial information
• 29:56–34:27 | Testing the prototype with Jamie Wolanski; her expert verdict
• 36:19–37:06 | Listener call to action: download and test the prototype

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Tone and Style

The episode is lively, nerdy, and full of friendly banter. Planet Money’s hosts are self-deprecating about their lack of game-design knowledge and genuinely curious about both creative and practical hurdles. Exploding Kittens brings humor and a seasoned game-maker’s pragmatism. The overall tone is collaborative, iterative, and inviting listeners behind the curtain with transparency and enthusiasm.

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Conclusion & Listener Invitation

Planet Money and Exploding Kittens have developed a uniquely economic bluffing game, born from George Akerlof’s "Market for Lemons" and evolved through months of prototyping and expert wisdom. Now, they’re turning to listeners for massive playtesting—and input on what could become the next tabletop phenomenon. Download, play, provide feedback, and maybe help shape the first ever Planet Money Game!

Transcript

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[Erica Barris]

This is Planet Money from npr.

[Kenny Malone]

Previously on Planet Money. We are making a board game.

[Carly McGinnis]

Tabletop Games is actually the largest category on Kickstarter.

[Erica Barris]

Get out of here. It is if you make games. There has never been more competition.

[Ian Klayman]

This is Orbio. This is masterpiece.

[Carly McGinnis]

This is cargo.

[Kenny Malone]

We need help, a partner.

[Fernando Madera]

Welcome to the Exploding Kittens office.

[Kenny Malone]

Our basic question here is, can we make a board game? And where do we start?

[Ian Klayman]

I think what the next step here is, we do some homework and you do some homework. Your homework is give us three themes that are interesting to you. I'm curious to see what you come back with.

[Kenny Malone]

So we talked roughly, what, two weeks ago?

[Elan Lee]

Three weeks ago, yeah. Somewhere in there.

[Erica Barris]

That is the voice of Elan Lee, game designer and co founder of the Exploding Kittens game company.

[Kenny Malone]

Because we are making a board game. We are partnering with Exploding Kittens and we've got big dreams to make the.

[Erica Barris]

Kind of game that anyone would want to play.

[Kenny Malone]

To make a game that has big economic ideas baked into it.

[Erica Barris]

And Exploding Kittens had given us an assignment. We bring them some economic concepts and themes. They see if any of that might have promise for a real game.

[Kenny Malone]

Okay. We took the assignment very seriously. We had a full staff meeting where we went deep, we went nerdy. And I believe you had told us to come back with about three. Three ideas. We've got 17.

[Elan Lee]

Oh, this is going to be a fun project.

[Kenny Malone]

Okay, now, were all of these 17 ideas, like, obviously going to be Monopoly killers, You know, displace America's most popular games? Well, who can say? And so we began to pitch.

[Erica Barris]

Think about this. There are elves. They live forever, but they have to plan for retirement. What do they do?

[Elan Lee]

What does that even mean?

[Kenny Malone]

Okay, all right, next idea. Apprentice wizards running a bank. So they have the power to create money, but they're apprentices, so it always backfires. They mess it up. Okay, you don't have to Respond to everyone you can, you can let them settle in.

[Elan Lee]

I, I, I'm letting that one settle.

[Kenny Malone]

Okay. They weren't all home runs, but some of her ideas did seem to be getting a decent response.

[Erica Barris]

Like when we pitched a game inspired by compound interest, the idea that a small investment can snowball into something massive with enough time.

[Elan Lee]

You ever play Risk?

[Kenny Malone]

Yes, yes.

[Elan Lee]

You just described the mechanic by which armies are built in Risk, which is great. I mean, really, really nice shoulders to stand on there. So I would call that half of an idea.

[Kenny Malone]

We also pitched a game called Moral Hazard, where you have to decide which failing banks to bail out. But you may be hurting your future self by teaching those banks that you're going to clean up their mistakes.

[Elan Lee]

What you just said, your future self, like, there is an interesting game concept I've never seen before where you have two players, you and your future self.

[Erica Barris]

We pitched a game called Keeping up with the Joneses, where you buy things like a boat to make everyone around you jealous, just to learn. Oh, no, having this boat card is costing me so much and making me miserable.

[Elan Lee]

Here's why I hate this idea. Let me start there. I think what you have just described is a game with no replay value. Once you understand the properties associated with each card, with each item, I don't think you're going to be able to find that same delight when you go through that game again.

[Erica Barris]

We pitched game idea after game idea.

[Kenny Malone]

It's the same game and you don't know if you're playing within the capitalist system or the socialist system.

[Elan Lee]

Oh, that's a fun twist.

[Erica Barris]

After game idea.

[Elan Lee]

A question, though, about the inflation game. Like what, what's the goal here?

[Kenny Malone]

Probably that in. I don't know, we haven't thought that one through.

[Ian Klayman]

Yeah.

[Kenny Malone]

After game idea Pro cyclicality. We don't have to call the game that.

[Elan Lee]

Yeah, we're not going to call the game that.

[Erica Barris]

And what became very clear was that we knew very little about what might work for a new game.

[Kenny Malone]

Do you think we brought something to the table here today that that is useful?

[Elan Lee]

Absolutely, yes. I mean, look, there's two ways. There's two ways that games are born. One is you come up with a gameplay mechanic you absolutely love, and then you spend months and months and months trying to find the right theme that will sell properly. And the other way is you start off with a really strong theme, something that you know there's already an audience for, and then you try to find the right gameplay mechanic to match with it.

[Kenny Malone]

It feels like we've Done. Neither here. We've just brought.

[Elan Lee]

We have. You've planted the seeds for a path for the latter.

[Kenny Malone]

Yes, and in fact, one of the 17 economic idea seeds that we planted that day and eventually become the Planet Money game. Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Kenny Malone.

[Erica Barris]

And I'm Erica Barris. Planet Money is making a game. We have a partner. We've got some econ ideas. Now we need to figure out how to turn those ideas into a game.

[Kenny Malone]

Today on the show, episode two in our game series, we get to go behind the scenes to see what it takes to make a game. Ideally one that is fun and also chock full of economics, but doesn't feel like econ homework, which is perhaps a little harder than we appreciated.

[Erica Barris]

By the end of this episode, you listeners will be able to play an early prototype of the Planet Money game. In fact, we need you to play it and help us perfect it.

[Kenny Malone]

But first, the story of that game.

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[Kenny Malone]

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[Erica Barris]

We noticed that some of the most popular board games out there are about economics. Think monopolies. Settlers of Catan. So we thought we should make a game and along the way learn about the economics of making a game.

[Kenny Malone]

We want our Planet Money game to be nerdy, to teach people economics. And we want the game to be popular, beloved, the world over, selling hundreds of thousands of copies.

[Erica Barris]

Millions, even.

[Kenny Malone]

Millions.

[Erica Barris]

Yeah, yeah. And to sell all those games, the key is getting into stores like Walmart or Target. This is partly why we've partnered with exploding kittens. They know how to make games, the kinds of games that sometimes get picked up by big box stores.

[Kenny Malone]

But you know, let us not get ahead of ourselves. STEP 1 Here is what even is the game going to be. Time for Another meeting with Exploding Kittens. So last time we talked to you, you were the very lucky recipient of 17 incredible economic concepts that we gave to you.

[Erica Barris]

Yeah, that again, is Exploding Kittens co founder Alon Lee. But there are a bunch of Exploding Kittens folks on this call. It's been a few weeks and we hadn't talked at all since our prolific pitch meeting.

[Kenny Malone]

So we are curious just what happened immediately afterwards. What was the conversation that happened right after that?

[Ian Klayman]

Oh, sure. So even when you pitch them to us, we were taking notes and we wrote down like, oh, maybe explore this, maybe explore that. And so that pretty quickly got us to like, all right, a lot of these are just not going to work. Like, they're just. This feels like school. It's not going to be fun. What do we do? Yeah.

[Kenny Malone]

However, Ilan and one of Exploding Kittens game designers, Ian Klayman tell us that one of our ideas in particular had sparked something special.

[Erica Barris]

So what was the idea that kind of fit?

[Ian]

Yeah, so the one that we really got excited about was the market for lemons idea.

[Kenny Malone]

Market for lemons.

[Erica Barris]

Classic.

[Kenny Malone]

Woo hoo. The Market for Lemons is an economics paper from the 1970s by Nobel Prize winning economist George Akerloff. He's also famous because he's the husband of the former Fed head and Secretary of the Treasury, Janet Yellen.

[Erica Barris]

In a nutshell, the market for lemons paper is about the market for used cars and the problems created from what's known as asymmetric information. In this case, there is unequal information between sellers and buyers of used cars.

[Kenny Malone]

Right. A used car seller knows everything that is wrong with their used car, but the buyers do not. And that is a problem. But the reason it's a famous paper is because it shows how this ultimately becomes a problem for both the buyers and the sellers.

[Erica Barris]

In the end, what happens is you'll have some dishonest sellers who hide what's wrong with their used cars. Eventually, buyers will assume all sellers are dishonest and all used cars are crappy cars. And so the buyers will only offer crappy car prices, which then in turn.

[Kenny Malone]

Means that the honest sellers who actually do have good cars won't bother trying to sell their cars at all. And so we end up with this like, spiral, where nothing's left in the market but lemons. Just bad, crappy used cars.

[Erica Barris]

The market for lemons is an example of how asymmetric information can destroy a market. It can literally lead to market failure. And it's not just a problem for used cars. Asymmetric information can be an issue in the health insurance market or when a company's trying to hire new employees. And Exploding Kittens liked the idea. They liked the market for Lemons.

[Kenny Malone]

Is it just because the branding is so good? Like, it is one of the best names of an actual economics paper ever.

[Ian]

The name was compelling, but also the play pattern of two people trying to make a deal where one person has more information than the other is a pretty well established gameplay pattern, which could.

[Kenny Malone]

Be good or could be bad. You know, rote at this point. I guess it could go either way.

[Ian]

Well understood. But I would say, like, not overused.

[Erica Barris]

Exploding Kittens had been playing around with some ideas inspired by Market for Lemons. And co founder Elon Lee was very excited because they had discovered what they thought could be the core part of what could become the Planet Money game.

[Kenny Malone]

In fact, Elan says they were recording the exact moment that this discovery happened.

[Ian Klayman]

No, it was really like, just. That is a very rare moment to catch on tape. And I kept, like, staring over the camera thinking, oh, God, please still be recording. Please, please, please, please.

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah, we really accidentally captured lightning in a bottle.

[Ian Klayman]

100%, yes. Yeah, go, Go look at the tapes.

[Kenny Malone]

And so we present to you those tapes.

[Ian Klayman]

All right, go for it. Okay.

[Ian]

So we started off by talking.

[Erica Barris]

We see exploding kittens in the dining room of a house they'd rented for a retreat. The dining table is covered in game designer accoutrement.

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah. Blank playing cards and Sharpie markers.

[Erica Barris]

Existing games that can be used for parts.

[Kenny Malone]

There are four people around this table, including Elon, and they're playing around with some idea that's like, I don't know, what if there's one car seller and everyone else is a car buyer?

[Erica Barris]

Except there's no car, per se. There's just four homemade cards that tell the seller whether they have a good car or a lemon.

[Kenny Malone]

I mean, I did like the asymmetric information there of just like you. You and I were like, oh, it's a good car. And you guys were like, oh, it's a bad guard, but it's just not working. They seem to agree.

[Elan Lee]

Interesting.

[Ian Klayman]

Not fun yet. Yeah. But interesting. Yeah.

[Erica Barris]

They take a break to maybe let some new ideas percolate.

[Kenny Malone]

Now, what's important to know about these recordings is that Exploding Kittens is not testing a game at all. Their cards don't have fancy art. They're. They're not playing full rounds. What they are testing are different game mechanics. The most basic atomic level building block of a game. It's the Loop that players will do over and over. And if the game mechanic is not sparking, there is no game.

[Ian Klayman]

Alright, what were you saying?

[Ian]

Yes.

[Erica Barris]

So the thing that the herd of exploding kittens reconvene. And this, we are told, is where the magical planet money game moment is caught on tape.

[Kenny Malone]

We see co founder Elan Lee is now pacing around the room, sort of conducting the team.

[Ian Klayman]

Let's see, we had a deck with good cards and bad cards.

[Erica Barris]

Someone runs and grabs a deck of playing cards.

[Ian]

Red card's bad, black card's good.

[Kenny Malone]

Sure, yeah. Red card's bad, black card's good. Like whatever. They're making this up as they go. And what they come up with is the following. So, okay, there's still a seller. And that person is going to start by drawing two cards and secretly looking at them. And they're going to see that, that those two cards are either both good or both bad, or one is good and one is bad. Those are the only three options.

[Erica Barris]

Then the seller proposes a deal to another player. The buyer, like, I want to keep this card and I want you to take this other card.

[Kenny Malone]

Now, the buyer does not get to see those cards. They, they simply have to decide, do they accept this deal or do they reverse it? Like, no, no, no, you take this card and I want your card.

[Erica Barris]

And to be clear, the seller doesn't have to offer one card. They could offer both cards or no cards. It's a little convoluted to explain, but it really is a surprisingly basic mechanic like deal or no deal. Is the seller bluffing or not?

[Ian Klayman]

Yeah, this isn't a fleshed out thing yet. This is trying to see if there's enough social manipulation here to be interesting. Yeah.

[Kenny Malone]

And here is the moment Exploding Kittens was so excited to show us. It happens literally the first time they try this new game mechanic.

[Erica Barris]

Okay, so the first seller is Ian. He reaches for the playing cards, tries to remember the rules.

[Ian]

So black is good, red bad.

[Ian Klayman]

Okay, knack two.

[Kenny Malone]

He draws two cards. He looks at them, looks across the table at his buyer, looks back at his cards, looks at the buyer, back to the cards. He sort of tilts his head and looks puzzled, almost as if to say, oh, wait, what is the strategy here?

[Erica Barris]

Alain is watching him and he is delighted.

[Ian Klayman]

Already. Interesting.

[Kenny Malone]

Okay, what are you doing? Ian chooses to split up the two cards. He puts one card in front of himself, one in front of his buyer.

[Erica Barris]

Now it's the buyer's decision, should he reverse the deal? No, he keeps it.

[Kenny Malone]

They both flip over their cards all right. Wow. Yep. Yes. Some not radio friendly words about how this all played out. Because it turns out both cards were bad cards. And Elan is watching all of this fascinated because it has revealed that this mechanic is maybe more strategically complex than he thought. Ian had essentially chosen to eat one bad card in order to avoid the risk of ending up with two bad cards.

[Ian Klayman]

You split those because you didn't want to take all the rest. Okay.

[Erica Barris]

They run another round to test the mechanic. Again.

[Ian Klayman]

We're switching cards.

[Erica Barris]

And again and again.

[Kenny Malone]

Keep it three times in a row. I read it is so basic. So basic, but also so clear that it has brought the room to life.

[Ian Klayman]

Yeah. Let's stop and have a little conversation.

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah.

[Ian Klayman]

All right. So something is happening here, which I like.

[Kenny Malone]

Yep.

[Ian Klayman]

But it's at like a 6 out of 10.

[Kenny Malone]

Right.

[Erica Barris]

And so that Lon was explaining to us in our zoom meeting is what a game design breakthrough looks like for exploding kittens.

[Ian Klayman]

It started to suddenly work and work really well.

[Kenny Malone]

I noticed that you could sort of graph the intellectual curiosity. Like, I guess there's something interesting here. And then suddenly you're yelling more and saying the F word more to each other. Is that.

[Ian Klayman]

I've never tried to plot that out on a graph. But I will bet there is a really nice correlation there.

[Erica Barris]

You've just discovered they were so excited and we were excited that they were excited. But how. How to put this? We did not appreciate the simple elegance of the game mechanic.

[Kenny Malone]

That's a nice way to put it. No. We were like, that's all like a bluffing game. And in our defense, here's what we were thinking at the time. We did know this was the earliest stage of development, but. But whatever this was needed to be the seed for the Planet Money game.

[Erica Barris]

Yeah. Shouldn't it literally teach people the big economic ideas behind the market for lemons? Like show players how asymmetric information can destroy a market.

[Kenny Malone]

And what exploding kittens had showed us was like fun looking. But it did just look like deal or no deal. Lying or not lying. Like, that was the mechanic. And so we gently tried to offer this feedback. And then Elon gently managed our existential crisis and reassured us that he has made a gazillion games.

[Erica Barris]

We want a game that an economist will pick up and say, oh, this is the greatest game.

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah.

[Erica Barris]

A high school class can play it. And it's like almost like a substitute for reading the paper market for lemons. But also like a 10 year old can play it. That is the version we want.

[Ian Klayman]

I love the challenge, I think we are certainly not there yet.

[Kenny Malone]

I mean, is it going to be smart? Can we make it smart enough so that we can say, here's the economics concept. It's hidden there, but it's demonstrating this thing I do.

[Ian Klayman]

Yeah. Well, here's the beauty of this. We got a really good game. It has a rough outline of this economic principle. And now we need to figure out how you can walk away from the game with that delightful sense of nerdiness where you think like, oh, you fooled me into learning something, but I didn't even realize it at the time. And now that I do, that was really cool. Like, if we can get there with this, we'll be in a good place. And it's better to start with a really fun game and try to get there rather than vice versa, which is a much harder task.

[Erica Barris]

Basically, Alain and the Exploding Kittens crew are like, trust us, we have an economic idea from you and we have the beginning of a good game mechanic. And in this industry, a good game mechanic, it's rare. It's like discovering a new way to power a game. It is incredibly hard to come up with. And we have that. The rest will fall into place.

[Kenny Malone]

And thus began a months long process of so much prototyping.

[Ian]

All right, friends, who wants to learn how to play the Planet Money board game Draft one.

[Erica Barris]

Exploding Kittens would send a prototype. And in each draft, they're sending over more than just a game mechanic.

[Kenny Malone]

They're sending handmade cards, usually just repurposed.

[Erica Barris]

Exploding Kittens cards, and they're sending instructions.

[Ian]

Your goal is to make deals with other players to collect the good cards and avoid the bad cards. The first player with five good cards wins.

[Kenny Malone]

And for each of these drafts, Elon seems to also be making like a million tweaks, running tests, and apparently keeping audio journals this whole time.

[Ian Klayman]

Okay, we just ran another test of the Planet Money game and it was good, but not great. Okay, so the test last night was interesting. The mechanic is still pretty solid. Okay, just had a great test. Need to make some changes.

[Kenny Malone]

Listening to Elan talk to, I guess Elan in these recordings did perhaps begin to give us more of an appreciation for the art of what he's doing.

[Erica Barris]

Yeah, clearly turning a game mechanic into something that is a game comes with all these questions, like, what is the optimal number of good cards versus bad cards?

[Ian Klayman]

One, the deck was completely unbalanced.

[Kenny Malone]

Would it be more fun if there were superpower cards that let you do special things?

[Ian Klayman]

Didn't really work. Some were overpowered, some Were underpowered.

[Erica Barris]

Okay, maybe tweak the superpowers, make a whole new card.

[Ian Klayman]

Going to make six of those, now.

[Kenny Malone]

That I think about it. Wait, oh, are there still enough bad cards in the deck to cause chaos though?

[Ian Klayman]

Oh, shoot. I think only one player can get knocked out of the game. Oh, wait, yeah.

[Kenny Malone]

It is never ending. There was the version where everyone was getting bored in between turns, so Elan tried giving everyone 16 cards in their hand so they did have something to look at.

[Ian Klayman]

So they're not bored. That's great. But there's just massive decision paralysis.

[Erica Barris]

Then there was the version where the game took no time at all to finish.

[Ian Klayman]

Like, average gameplay was like four minutes. And ideally it would be closer to 20.

[Kenny Malone]

So meanwhile, whenever we would see one of these prototypes of the games, we were still a little worried, to be honest. Superpower cards, 16 card hands. Fine. But like, when is this going to be a game where players live out the experience of being inside the market for lemons?

[Erica Barris]

We would go back to Exploding Kittens with this, like, throwing spaghetti at the wall approach. Like, what if we introduced Monopoly money? What if people are constantly bidding or trading? What if the rule book is 15.

[Kenny Malone]

Pages long and Exploding Kittens was very patient with our flying spaghetti feedback. Sometimes they would make tweaks, and sometimes they would have very valuable lessons for us on why our suggestions may not fit into the hyper competitive, low margin world of game manufacturing.

[Erica Barris]

So, for example, we asked them, would the game have more heft if it took a little longer to play? Like more than 20 minutes would say.

[Ian Klayman]

The sweet spot for us in general is really to try to hit a 20 minute game, maybe 15 to 20 minutes. But if we can get maximum entertainment satisfaction, that beautiful sense of mastery, start to finish in 20 minutes, we know we have a hit on our hands.

[Ian]

Okay, why? Why not go longer?

[Erica Barris]

That's our executive producer, Alex Goldmark.

[Ian]

Why not go longer? Why is that the special amount you.

[Ian Klayman]

So you want players to be able to go longer. You don't want the game to force them to go longer. The story of Exploding Kittens is exactly this. We optimize that game to be exactly 20 minutes almost every time you play.

[Kenny Malone]

Huh? Okay. Another interesting business lesson came for us when we suggested that it was sort of hard during one of the prototypes to keep track of who was close to winning, who was close to losing. So how fun would it be if there were colorful plastic coins to keep track of all the points, eh?

[Erica Barris]

The Exploding Kittens team liked the idea, but Kelly Vopelak, VP of creative operations Told us we are aiming for a Planet Money game made entirely of paper. So it's not a no on coins.

[Kenny Malone]

It's.

[Erica Barris]

But it's way better if they're not plastic.

[NPR Announcer]

So paper is the cheapest.

[Carly McGinnis]

We love an all paper game because that means if we charge $20, we can make more money.

[Kenny Malone]

Cardboard is paper.

[Carly McGinnis]

Yes?

[Kenny Malone]

Yes.

[Ian Klayman]

Okay.

[Carly McGinnis]

Card, stock the box. We would even consider that paper.

[Kenny Malone]

Okay, so, okay, Exploding Kittens tells us they could add paper or cardstock or cardboard coins if you. That's what everyone wanted to do.

[Erica Barris]

But yes, mixing materials like having plastic coins would drive up manufacturing costs. It might require multiple factories. And to sell the game in a store like Target or Walmart, we want to keep the price to 20 to $25. So we have to keep costs down and keep it to paper if we want to make a profit.

[Carly McGinnis]

Anything you'd get from a tree, you.

[NPR Announcer]

Can consider that paper.

[Erica Barris]

Okay, so off go the Exploding kittens to make even more changes.

[Kenny Malone]

And as we saw prototype after prototype, it did start to dawn on us how terrible our idea had been to try and push our game towards a full on simulation of a market for lemons. Because, you know, the beautiful lesson in that paper isn't just about the challenges when a seller has more information than a buyer. It's it's about how that asymmetry can cause a market to grind to a halt. So did we really want a game that ground to a halt in order to teach an economics lesson? I mean, honestly, kind of. But we were also beginning to see why that might not have a broadly popular appeal.

[Erica Barris]

So. Okay, but even if the game wasn't going to recreate a market for lemon style collapse, could the game mechanic at least get closer to nailing the feeling of real world asymmetric information correctly?

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah, because remember the game mechanic, you've got a seller who looks at their cards, offers a deal, and then a buyer who just decides without any information whether the deal is good or not. That's just a game about bluffing where one person has zero information and the other has all the information. But when someone is buying a used car, they can see the car, they get some information and. And that's fun. It's a more complex, messy version of asymmetric information. We need something that gets closer to that.

[Erica Barris]

And then Exploding Kittens sent us a new version with this one key change.

[Ian Klayman]

All right, here we go. Planet money game, take 117.

[Erica Barris]

This is a video of Alain explaining the new game version to his team.

[Ian Klayman]

All right, so let's go over what we just changed. Okay. So hopefully the game in general will go much faster.

[Kenny Malone]

And what was this revolutionary change? Well, Elan explains, you're still going to have a seller. They're still going to look at cards. They're still going to offer a deal. But this time I'm going to show you this one.

[Ian Klayman]

Oh, wait, what are you doing? You're keeping. So you keep your cards, but I'm not not taking mine.

[Kenny Malone]

Yes. The seller now shows one of the cards in the deal. Everyone gets to see it. That's it. That's the big change.

[Erica Barris]

I know it doesn't sound like much, but suddenly, instead of the game just being about bluffing, the buyer now has some information. Just like the economic dynamic that exists in the used car market.

[Kenny Malone]

And really, honestly, out of nowhere, it did feel more like an economics game. We went back to exploding kittens one last time. I think the top line note here is we had a lot of fun playing the Planet Money board game. Should we just say it?

[Erica Barris]

It was great. I mean, it was a lot of fun.

[Elan Lee]

I love to hear this. This is a milestone.

[Kenny Malone]

I think this is it. I think we have a game. I think we've got a game.

[Elan Lee]

I love this. I love this.

[Kenny Malone]

I mean, it was a prototype of a game with handwritten cards and rules that still needed tweaking. But it was clearly a rough draft of a Planet Money game. And we liked it.

[Erica Barris]

But the real test is to bring it to the tastemakers who can get these games into the targets and Walmarts of the world. That is. After the break.

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[Erica Barris]

Once we had a version of the game that we were happy with, we wanted to bring it to one person in particular.

[Kenny Malone]

How many games have you played in your life at this point?

[Carly McGinnis]

Oh, my goodness.

[Kenny Malone]

Over. Under a thousand.

[Carly McGinnis]

Oh, over.

[Kenny Malone]

Really?

[Carly McGinnis]

Yes, definitely over.

[Kenny Malone]

This is Jamie Wolanski. She's a game consultant. Her, her job is to get games into big box stores. She is in fact the one who first got Settlers of Catan into Target. Exploding Kittens often hires her to pitch their games to the big box stores.

[Erica Barris]

Ultimately, she is going to know whether this very rudimentary prototype of ours has a chance to achieve one of our wildest dreams. Getting the Planet Money Game onto real.

[Kenny Malone]

Shelves at Everyone is one move away. I mean, this was a huge moment for Carly, which is, I guess why Carly, she was going to play a prototype of the game and render judgment.

[Fernando Madera]

So let's actually do the four of us playing.

[Erica Barris]

So here's the scene. We're in a hotel lobby with the Exploding Kittens crew and Jamie, the head of game development, Thor Ritz. He runs through the instructions.

[Fernando Madera]

So I'm going to deal everyone five cards.

[Kenny Malone]

We are all crowded around a couple of high top tables. Jamie is in fact sitting just to my left.

[Carly McGinnis]

Oh, I have one too many. I have six beautiful artwork on these cards.

[Kenny Malone]

That voice is Carly McGinnis, President of Exploding Kittens. She's being sarcastic here because they are literally just homemade cards.

[Erica Barris]

There are red cards, they're bad. And green ones, they're good. Avoid the red ones. Collect enough green ones and you win.

[Kenny Malone]

And of course, the way you collect cards is through our deal making game mechanic. The game begins.

[Fernando Madera]

Carly, you are going to make an offer to Jamie. You're going to pick three cards. You've got five in your hand, you're going to.

[Erica Barris]

So Carly the seller takes three cards from her hand. She places one of them in front of Jamie the buyer.

[Kenny Malone]

Carly, the seller is essentially saying, I want you, Jamie, to take this one card and I want to keep these other two cards. But don't forget we now have that key information asymmetry tweak to our mechanic.

[Fernando Madera]

All that Carly has to do is reveal one of her cards.

[Erica Barris]

Carly the seller chooses to reveal the one card she is offering Jamie the buyer. It is a green number two. A good card.

[Fernando Madera]

So now Jamie, you know something about the deal that she did, just offered you. It looks pretty good, right?

[Kenny Malone]

Sure does. And now it is all up to Jamie to decide. Take the deal. Or reverse it. Does she take the sure thing, the green two, or does she reverse the deal in hopes that Carly was hiding something even better in the two cards that are still face down in front of Carly, the seven.

[Carly McGinnis]

You don't know anything about this pile. Yeah, but this pile, you know, at least has two. Yeah, I'll take that pretty green. Okay, I'll take the green pile. Okay, now you have to show us. What is it? I knew it. I knew it.

[Erica Barris]

Yeah, Carly was hiding a much better card.

[Carly McGinnis]

I never trust Carly.

[Kenny Malone]

Carly dogged you.

[Erica Barris]

However, Jamie should have risked it and reburst the deal.

[Kenny Malone]

So I'm watching this first round. Jamie seems into it. So I turn to her and I ask her, do you love the Planet Money game yet?

[Carly McGinnis]

Not yet.

[Kenny Malone]

Okay. Does it help to know that it is inspired by a Nobel prize winning paper about the asymmetry of information in the used car market by Janet Yellen's husband?

[Carly McGinnis]

I don't know anything you just said.

[Erica Barris]

We keep playing the game and Jamie starts dropping these hints that seem like a good sign.

[Carly McGinnis]

I love a game that has your strategy changes with every single turn.

[Kenny Malone]

Do you feel like that's happening?

[Carly McGinnis]

Yeah.

[Kenny Malone]

At one point between rounds, Jamie tells us what in general she looks for in a game that will work on big box shelves.

[Carly McGinnis]

The hallmark of great selling games, when you know it's a great game, is when you can't stop thinking about it at night when you're going to bed and you're like, God damn it, I really want to play that game again.

[Kenny Malone]

This game went on and got more heated. People became more invested as they got closer to getting enough points to win. And eventually all four of us playing could have won. And I'll be honest, I had been leading and I thought I was gonna win. We're all one chip away from winning.

[Carly McGinnis]

Yes. Oh my God. I won, you guys. That's insane. I am here to tell you unbelievable that the underdog won.

[Erica Barris]

Jamie won. In the glow of her victory aftermath, we asked her what she thought.

[Kenny Malone]

I believe be real. You're making a very excited face.

[Carly McGinnis]

Okay, here's what I am excited about. I am constantly on the lookout for a new game mechanic that no one else has ever done. And there is not a game out there that I can equate this to. So to me, gamers are going to be excited about playing a new concept. And it's also mass friendly enough that mass retailer and casual games gamers will pick it up and have a blast playing it.

[Kenny Malone]

I mean, we did it. We've Got the Planet Money Game.

[Erica Barris]

Okay, well, hold on. We've got one homemade copy of a game, and yes, we have been calling it the Planet Money Game.

[Carly McGinnis]

The most critical thing at this point is naming it. Really? Yeah, the name. The title. Because a good title or a bad title will just absolutely sink a really great game.

[Kenny Malone]

Okay, fine. Title, TBD workshop, amongst other things to figure out.

[Carly McGinnis]

And then I would also say the artwork, the aesthetic of what, of what can appeal to the masses. And picking the right theme is going to be critical to making it work.

[Kenny Malone]

All right, well, this is promising. So just as long as we don't mess up the name and the pictures.

[Erica Barris]

We can name the drawings, the naming. That's all stuff we're gonna get to in some future episodes.

[Kenny Malone]

But our game still has kinks to work out, which is why we have a big, big, big announcement. Sound the taboo buzzer, ring the operation bell. The Planet Money Game prototype is available for download starting right this instant. Because listeners, our beloved intelligent audience, we do need you to help us conduct the largest prototype playtest. I don't know, maybe ever, perhaps.

[Erica Barris]

Now, this is our troubleshooting phase, our debugging period. We have about a month to do this. So this is your assignment. Put a game night on the calendar and download the printable prototype of our game.

[Kenny Malone]

The link to that is going to be in the podcast show Notes, but it is also just planetmoneygame.com planetmoneygame.com it's going to require a little arts and crafts work, printing, cutting out cards, but I know you industrious lot can handle that.

[Erica Barris]

I trust at that link you'll find instructions for how to play the game and how to send us feedback. Plus you'll be able to sign up for our big group Playalong. Ask us anything happening on Saturday, November 1st.

[Kenny Malone]

Saturday, November 1st. I'll be there. Erica will be there. Elan Lee, co founder of Exploding Kittens, will be there. We would love to see you. Also, we should say, Elan truly does not stop tinkering with these games. And so the version that you will download and make at home is slightly different than the version we've been talking about. But all of this will be explained atplanetmoney game.com this is just the beginning.

[Erica Barris]

Please stay tuned for updates and let the wild world of asymmetric information be your guide.

[Kenny Malone]

This episode of Planet Money was produced by James Sneed with help from Emma Peaslee. It was edited by Jess Jiang, fact checked by Sierra Juarez and engineered by Sina Lofredo. Alex Goldmark. Is our executive producer. I'm Kenny Malone.

[Erica Barris]

I'm Erica Barras. This is npr. Thanks for listening.

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[NPR Announcer]

The Capital One Venturex business card earns unlimited double miles on every purchase. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms and conditions apply. Find out [e-mail] venturexbusiness.