The Rest of the Story, 2024

Summary

Podcast Summary: Planet Money – "The Rest of the Story, 2024"

Release Date: December 27, 2024
Host: NPR – Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi

---

Planet Money invites listeners to revisit some of their favorite past episodes in "The Rest of the Story, 2024," providing updates on key topics, discussions, insights, and conclusions. This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting each segment with notable quotes and timestamps to offer a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened.

---

1. REI's Changing Return Policy

Key Discussion: Lindsay Powell, a dedicated REI member, shares her experience with REI's once-generous return policy, which now faces significant restrictions. Approximately 3,300 members have been limited from making returns due to excessively high return rates, disrupting the longstanding relationship between customers and the outdoor retailer.

Notable Quotes:

• Lindsay Powell [02:35]: "If you purchase something with us and you're not happy with it for any reason, you can return it, no questions asked. Not a big deal."
• REI Representative, Ken Voller [03:39]: "The customers who received this notice had been using their policy in a way that had gotten really expensive for the company."

Insight: The shift in REI's policy reflects a broader trend of companies reassessing generous return policies, especially in the age of online shopping, to mitigate financial losses from abuse. Lindsay’s decision to cease shopping at REI underscores the potential backlash companies may face when altering customer-friendly practices.

---

2. The Rise of "Funflation" in Sports Ticket Prices

Key Discussion: Co-host Kenny Malone updates listeners on the dramatic increase in sports ticket prices since their initial report two years prior. Originally witnessing a decline in ticket costs, the market has now surged, a phenomenon dubbed "Funflation."

Notable Quotes:

• Kenny Malone [10:06]: "It's called Ready Funflation. It reminds me of the Funfetti cake with the little sprinkles."
• Kenny Malone [10:32]: "This rise in sports ticket prices is part of a phenomenon that has earned its own name that we call Funflation."

Insight: The term "Funflation" captures the economic impact of heightened demand for live events post-pandemic. While initially ticket prices fell during high inflation periods, their subsequent rise signifies increasing consumer desire for in-person experiences, challenging previous economic trends.

---

3. Student Loans and the Fate of the SAVE Plan

Key Discussion: Cory Turner provides an update on President Biden's SAVE (Saving on a Valuable Education) student loan repayment plan, which is currently under legal scrutiny by Republican state attorneys general. This legal battle has placed approximately 8 million borrowers in a state of limbo, with loan payments paused and interest not accruing.

Notable Quotes:

• Cory Turner [14:00]: "Republican state attorneys general ... argue that the SAVE plan is illegal because only Congress has the power of the purse."
• Cory Turner [16:11]: "The only way it survives is for three unlikely things to all happen... the courts, the incoming Trump administration, and Congress, which will soon be controlled by Republicans."

Insight: The SAVE plan's uncertainty illustrates the complexities of executive actions in the realm of education finance. With significant financial implications and legal challenges, the future of the SAVE plan remains precarious, potentially forcing borrowers to revert to less favorable repayment options.

---

4. Argentina's Economic Shifts Under President Xavier Milei

Key Discussion: Amanda Aronchik delivers a rapid-fire update on Argentina following the election of President Xavier Milei. Milei has implemented aggressive economic reforms aimed at stabilizing the economy, including cutting government jobs, reducing subsidies, and devaluing the peso.

Notable Quotes:

• Amanda Aronchik [18:19]: "The monthly inflation rate was just over 25% last December. This past October it went down to 2 percent."
• Amanda Aronchik [19:17]: "There was a recession this past year. Before Milei was elected, 42% of the country lived below the poverty line. Now 50%."

Insight: While Milei's policies have successfully curbed inflation, they have also led to increased costs of living and a rise in poverty rates. The trade-off between economic stabilization and social welfare remains a contentious issue, with Milei maintaining a notable approval rating despite the hardships faced by many Argentinians.

---

5. The Ongoing Battle Against Zombie Mortgages

Key Discussion: Investigations into "zombie mortgages"—old loans being resurrected for collection—continue to reveal systemic issues. Chris Arnold updates listeners on legal actions taken against companies like Franklin Credit Management, which resulted in a $10 million settlement in Massachusetts, offering debt relief to over 500 homeowners.

Notable Quotes:

• Ramtin Arablouei [24:36]: "The company's settlement not only addresses the issue of zombie mortgages but most importantly, gets the monetary resources these borrowers deserve."
• Ramtin Arablouei [25:57]: "The settlement doesn't help Karen McDonough. She's still trying to get ownership of her home back from a different company that foreclosed on it."

Insight: While the settlement marks progress in combating unfair debt collection practices, many homeowners remain vulnerable. Ongoing investigations and potential future settlements are crucial for broader protection against abusive foreclosure tactics.

---

6. Enhancements in Parental Benefits for Multiples

Key Discussion: Mary Childs updates her previous exploration of global parental benefits, focusing on countries that offer extended leave for parents of multiple births. Sweden, among a few other nations, provides additional leave per child, recognizing the increased medical and caregiving needs associated with multiples.

Notable Quotes:

• Mary Childs [28:20]: "In Sweden, they really do offer 180 days more per marginal child on top of their existing offer of 480 days for a baby."
• Mary Childs [29:07]: "More leave may be medically indicated because it's typically a more complicated pregnancy for whoever is growing the babies."

Insight: As the incidence of multiple births rises due to factors like fertility treatments and advanced maternal age, countries offering enhanced parental leave support are better positioned to accommodate the unique challenges of raising multiples. This approach not only benefits families but also fosters healthier child development.

---

Conclusion

Planet Money's "The Rest of the Story, 2024" effectively revisits and updates listeners on pivotal economic and social issues discussed in previous episodes. Through comprehensive updates and expert insights, the podcast continues to illuminate the dynamic interplay between consumer behavior, policy changes, and broader economic trends.

---

Notable Contributors:

• Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi: Host
• Lindsay Powell: REI Member
• Kenny Malone: Co-host
• Cory Turner: Education Correspondent
• Amanda Aronchik: Contributor on Argentina
• Mary Childs: Contributor on Parental Benefits
• Chris Arnold: Investigations Correspondent
• Ramtin Arablouei: Co-host

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to Planet Money+ for sponsor-free episodes and bonus content.

Transcript

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Hi, I'm Ramtin Arablouei from Throughline. Electricity, Internet, cell service, all the things we rely on every day can be unreliable or inaccessible in an emergency. But through any storm or crisis, radio is a lifeline. Support the resource that's here for you no matter what.

[Amanda Aronchik]

Give [e-mail] hey, it's Amanda Aronchik. The year is almost over. You've heard a lot of pitches asking you to support. To the many of you who have given, thank you. Now, if you are sick of these pitches, chances are you are a heavy podcast listener that you get a lot out of NPR podcasts like Planet Money, the Indicator, up first, the NPR Politics Podcast. In order to make all our shows possible, NPR has sponsors sponsors slot messages into podcast episodes. You hear them every show, every unless you don't. That is just one of the things we offer. Supporters who sign up for NPR sponsor free episodes of more than 25 different NPR podcasts, including this one. And those sponsor messages add up. If you listen to two or three NPR podcasts each week, we could be talking about 12 hours worth of sponsor messages in a year. So just consider like, what is 12 hours of your time worth and imagine spending that on something that matters and keeping those 12 hours. Supporting public media is a public good, especially right now. Information matters. Facts matter. Context and perspective matter. We know you know this. So please take a few minutes. To save hours of time in the coming year and support NPR, go to plus.NPR.org get sponsor free episodes as well as bonus episodes, merch discounts and other perks across more than 25 NPR shows. That's plus.npr.org the link is in our episode notes too. And thanks.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

This is Planet Money from npr. Lindsay Powell has been a card carrying member of Recreational Equipment Incorporated for over a decade. That's the outdoor goods store more commonly known as rei, which also happens to be an NPR sponsor. And one of the things she's loved most about REI is their famously generous returns policy.

[Lindsay Powell]

If you purchase something with us and you're not happy with it for any reason, you can return it, no questions asked. Not a big deal.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

REI will give you a full year to return the stuff you buy. And Lindsay would take them up on that offer a lot, sometimes going to extreme lengths to put some piece of gear to the test.

[Lindsay Powell]

I remember like purchasing like a janji jacket and it claimed to be waterproof and I literally like wore it in the shower because I was like, says it's going to be waterproof. Well, let's test it, you know, how.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Long did you stay in the shower?

[Lindsay Powell]

I think it was like five minutes or so.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

It was like a tropical monsoon.

[Lindsay Powell]

Yeah. I'm like, this is not working.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

But a couple months ago, Lindsey got a sort of stern email from REI letting her know that her days of freewheeling returns had come to an end.

[Lindsay Powell]

Hello, REI member. REI recently updated part of its return policy. When we reviewed your account, we found that the number and frequency of returns you have made far exceeds what we typically see for members.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

The email explained that going forward, Lindsay would no longer be allowed to return anything she bought from REI ever again.

[Lindsay Powell]

I was in shock. I thought it was a spam email. I didn't believe it.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

And Lindsay was not the only person to have gotten this email. So approximately 3,300 members, or less than 0.02% of our 24 million members, have been limited in their ability to make returns. This is Ken Voller. He's in charge of operations for REI stores, and he says the customers who received this notice had been using their policy in a way that had gotten really expensive for the company. On average, this group had a return rate of almost 80%. So that means that if they purchased $1,000 worth of gear from us, they returned $800 worth of that, and more than half of that gear had been used. We saw customers buying an entire season's worth of ski gear. So skis, boots, clothing, using that gear for the entire season and then returning it all once they were finished. Okay, so they're using it like a free rental service, basically. Exactly. And what REI is up to here, it kind of represents the latest chapter in this larger story about returns that I've been following for a while. A few years ago, I reported a Planet Money episode about what happens to all the stuff that we as consumers send back every year and why more and more companies have started offering generous returns policies in the age of online shopping. But lately, that trend seems to be reversing at least a little bit, though it can seem like a lot for people like REI member Lindsay Powell. She says she understood why the company would want to crack down on people using the store like a lending library. But she says that she herself was not in that camp. She actually went back to all her REI purchases from the past decade and made a spreadsheet in order to double check and what she found.

[Lindsay Powell]

So it was pretty gnarly because I realized that I've spent close to $11,000 with them between 2014 and 2024, and of that $11,000. I returned $3,142.56.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

So your return rate is something around 30%, is that right?

[Lindsay Powell]

Yeah.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

So not 80%. And yes, 30% may still sound like a very high rate of returns. But Lindsay says most of the things she returned she'd ordered online and sent back pretty quickly after figuring out they didn't fit. Right. For Lindsay, the main issue here is that she says she never got any warning before losing her returns privileges, and that she wouldn't have shopped the way she did if she'd known there was this secret limit. REI's Ken Bowler wouldn't comment on particular customers, but he says that over the years the company has tried giving warnings to some problematic over returners. They've tried putting people on probation, but none of it worked. And he points out that Lindsay and everyone else who got their return privileges revoked are still welcome to shop at the store. Whether anyone will take them up on that offer is less clear. Do you think you'll ever buy anything from REI ever again?

[Lindsay Powell]

No, definitely not. No. I'm done. I'm done with that store. I would rather have a root canal versus going to that store again.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Lindsay's decided that if REI won't let her return the things she buys, she won't return to REI to buy anything in the first place. Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Alexi Horowitz. Ghazi Today's episode is actually going to be all about returns of a different sort. We're going to return to some of our favorite episodes from the past few years to find out what's happened since we put our microphones down and hit publish, part of an annual tradition we called the Rest of the Story after the program by the radio legend Paul Harvey. Now the Rest of the Story. Today on the show, what's happened with all these student loans that President Biden tried to forgive? Where is the best place in the world to give birth to twins? And how has Argentina fared after a year under the economic guidance of a man with the nickname El Loca? That's all coming up on the Rest of the Story.

[Cory Turner]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Stripe. Stripe knows that making and missing a sale could come down to how your customer wants to pay. Maybe your customer prefers paying with twint or ideal. Even if you didn't know, those are popular payment methods in Switzerland and the Netherlands. With Stripe, your checkout will. Stripe's optimized checkout suite offers localized payment methods and drives revenue for businesses turning more of your shoppers into buyers.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Learn [e-mail] this message comes from Capital One.

[Mary Childs]

Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.combank for details. Capital One NA Member FDIC for our.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

First update, we've called Planet Money co host Kenny Malone to the studio. Hello, Kenny.

[Kenny Malone]

Hello. Let's do this. I'm excited. Let's go.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Kenny. Two years ago, you assigned yourself maybe one of the more whimsical episodes we've ever done.

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah. You may recall that former Planet Money co host Robert Smith and I, we attempted to attend five different New York area sporting events in a single day. It was. There they go, there they go, there they go. All right, sports event number two. Two it is.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

The jets versus One second. Chicago Bears. The Bears. The Bears.

[Kenny Malone]

This is a dumpster fire.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

This is an actual dumpster fire.

[Kenny Malone]

It was a real dumpster fire. But along the way, we tried to pay as little as possible to get into all of these events. Oh, dude, I got 10 bucks.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Wait, what? What?

[Mary Childs]

What?

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

What? Yeah, that's right. You got some $10 tickets to a Jets game. Not bad. That's right.

[Cory Turner]

Some.

[Kenny Malone]

Some would say you should. You should be paid to go to a Jets game, but yes, yes, we did pay $10.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

That's next time.

[Kenny Malone]

Now. Now, the reason we went to these events is because even though inflation was going through the roof, then sports ticket prices were actually going down. And so, Alexi, my update is that now, even though inflation has slowed down, sports ticket prices are now actually going up. Like, way up.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, so basically, the exact opposite price phenomenon has happened since your story.

[Kenny Malone]

Yeah, 180 degree turnaround. So, you know, when we did our story about two years ago, ticket prices had dropped 17.7% year over year. One year after our story, they were up 25%. Like, even higher than before the drop. So this, this rise in sports ticket prices is part of a phenomenon that has earned its own name that. I think you're going to like it. It's called Ready Funflation.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Funflation. What? We should have cooked that up.

[Kenny Malone]

We didn't, and it does. Cooking it up since. It reminds me of the Funfetti cake with the little sprinkles. But yes, this is apparently how economists are talking about the. The rush of demand and thus increased prices for live events that I guess we missed during the pandemic. Sports have seen the biggest jump in ticket prices, but the consumer price index category that tracks movies and theater and concerts, like altogether has also generally outpaced inflation. So, so it it appears we reported that original sports ticket story in the exact window before the funflation, the brief window of like whatever you would call the opposite of funflation. I don't know.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Right. Like couch inflation or couch bumflation.

[Kenny Malone]

Yes.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Yes. All right, Kenny, thank you so much for your update.

[Kenny Malone]

Thank you, Alexi.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Next up, we have NPR's longtime education correspondent Cory Turner, or as I like to think of him, the Student Loan Whisperer. Cory, welcome back. Thanks for coming.

[Cory Turner]

Hi, Alexi.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Thank you for staying on brand, but let's go full volume. So you are here to give us an update on a student loan episode you did around a year and a half ago.

[Cory Turner]

Yeah, it was August 2023, and a lot has happened since then. In that episode, I was talking about President Biden's big new student loan repayment plan, the SAVING on a Valuable Education Plan, or if you love acronyms, save. He rolled it out after the Supreme Court struck down his big effort to outright forgive billions of dollars in federal student loan debt. As repayment plans go, SAVE is radically more flexible and generous and forgiving, really, than anything that has come before. And I want to give you one example here, Alexi, A borrower I've spoken to a few times over the past year. His name is Carlos Sanchez of Texas. He took out a ton of student loan debt to put his three children through state schools. Before he enrolled in SAVE, his monthly payment was over $1,000.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

After going through the process of the SAVE plan, it was whittled down to just over $400. And that was a huge relief.

[Cory Turner]

So SAVE was making a real difference for Carlos.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

But something about the fact that you're here right now, Corey, tells me that maybe that is not the case anymore.

[Cory Turner]

Ah. The rest of the story, Alexei, is that Carlos did not have much time to enjoy those SAVE benefits after, you.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Know, making a couple of payments at the lower level SAVE plan amount, I'm feeling pretty good that I'm on the right path. Turmoil began again.

[Cory Turner]

That turmoil was a bunch of Republican state attorneys general sued the Biden administration arguing that the SAVE plan is illegal.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

And I got notified from my loan provider that my loan was going to be put into forbearance until this litigation was settled. And Corey, this is way bigger than just Carlos, right? This is like a lot of people way bigger.

[Cory Turner]

It's happening to all of the roughly 8 million people who are enrolled in the SAVE plan and are now in the student loan equivalent of limbo.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, so what exactly is the legal argument here? Why do some folks think that SAVE might be illegal?

[Cory Turner]

Because of the cost. Really, Alexei? By one estimate, the plan could cost $475 billion over 10 years, which would make it maybe more exp than Biden's original loan forgiveness plan, which was obviously struck down by the Supreme Court. And so those Republican state attorneys general that I mentioned earlier, they have been arguing in court over the past year that, look, this is Civics 101. President Biden created the SAVE plan, but only Congress has the power of the purse, not the president. And if Congress had wanted to spend nearly half a trillion dollars on a loan repayment plan, it would have.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

And is this argument working? Like, where do things stand legally?

[Cory Turner]

At the moment, we're waiting for the next ruling, but the courts have already issued an injunction, which is a fancy way of saying nobody can use SAVE until they figure out if it's legal.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, so borrowers are in forbearance then. I mean, explain what this means. What should borrowers know moving forward here?

[Cory Turner]

Yeah, it means nobody has to make payments until the court decides if SAVE is legal. Also, interest is not accruing. But, you know, there are a lot of borrowers for whom this confusion, this limbo, is just too much. And so for them, they should know they have a few other options. The ED Department is reopening to older repayment plans. Though I should say a court ruling against save, if it's broad enough, could actually take them down, too. If borrowers want a safer bet, they could jump over to the one Income Based Plan, Alexi, that Congress created itself, which means it's safe. It's called IBR for Income Based Repayment, and it offers some loan forgiveness. But because of its rules, there are going to be some borrowers who may not qualify for the plan. What is clear at this point is that just about any other plan compared to SAVE is probably going to mean an increase in borrower's monthly payments.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

So, Corey, I assume a lot of borrowers are probably just going to stick this out to kind of see what happens. But what would you say are the chances that SAVED somehow survives all of this?

[Cory Turner]

I don't have a crystal ball, obviously, but I would say the only way it survives is for three unlikely things to all happen. And that is for the courts, for the incoming Trump administration, and for Congress, which will soon be controlled by Republicans, to all three decide that they want SAVE to stick around. Is that impossible? No, but boy, is it unlikely Cory.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Turner, thank you so much for the update.

[Cory Turner]

You're welcome, Alexi.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, next up we have Planet Money's Amanda Aronchik. Hi, Amanda.

[Amanda Aronchik]

Hello, Alexi. How are you? Nice to see you.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Good to see you. What have you brought for us?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Well, now I know that this episode is not a competition, but I win.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Of course. All you do is win, Amanda, but what are you talking about? What do you mean you're winning?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Well, the premise of this episode is to bring you updates on our stories that ran over the past couple years. And my update is the most updatiest because my update is of two episodes that I did about Argentina.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, an update on Argentina. I'm interested. But this is our last segment before the break, so we've only got about 2 minutes and 45 seconds.

[Amanda Aronchik]

Uhoh, that is not enough time. Argentina elected this totally radical new president, Xavier Milei, and boy, has he changed a lot. I distilled it down to 75 questions. Here is the list.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Amanda. Yeah, Amanda, this is like a little tome. Now we only have like 2 minutes, 20 seconds. Are you ready?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you ready? Go, go, go.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, okay, starting it now. Here we go. Okay, so first question. Did Argentina dollarize?

[Amanda Aronchik]

No. Milei promised to replace the collapsing with the US dollar to dollarize. But he has not done that. Not yet anyway.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Is the peso still excrement? What?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Yeah, that is how Milei described the peso. And no, it is complicated because there is a black market rate and an official rate for the peso, but it is much stronger than it was.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Has inflation in Argentina gone down?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Yes, by a lot. The monthly inflation rate was just over 25% last December. At one point, inflation Argentina was the highest in the world. This past October it went down to 2 point percent.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, a lot better, a lot better. What changes did Melei actually make?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Okay, I'm gonna list through these real fast and I'm gonna only answer the economic policy changes. We're gonna put the cultural stuff aside, the political stuff aside. Okay, so he cut more than 30,000 government jobs. He reduced the number of government ministries. He devalued the peso. He cut subsidies on energy, he cut subsidies on transportation. He cut pensions. He cut government salaries, he cut public works. He wasn't kidding when he said he was going to bring a chainsaw to the state. How much time is left?

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Just about a minute.

[Amanda Aronchik]

Oh God. Okay, so skip ahead to question 68. I have not gotten to the bad stuff yet.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, okay, okay. What are the downsides of this kind of shock therapy, as it's sometimes called. Has the cost of living gone up?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Yes. All those cuts to subsidies mean that heating your home costs more. Taking public transit costs more. Groceries cost more. There was a recession this past year. Before milei was elected, 42% of the country lived below the poverty line. Now 50% $.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

What about homelessness?

[Amanda Aronchik]

Homelessness is up in Buenos Aires. Look, Milei came into office saying that this was going to be really hard, and it has been for many people, really hard.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Okay, we've got about 28 seconds left. Last question. A year since he became president, do people like Javier Milei?

[Amanda Aronchik]

You know, many people do. When the last guy left office, his approval rating was down to 18%. Milei's approval rating is nearly 50%, which in Argentina. That's not bad. He is doing many of the things that he said he would do. Hopefully, all of this shock therapy will turn into more jobs and higher wages and investments and growth.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

All right, Amanda, you did it. Thank you so much for that update on the fate of an entire nation.

[Amanda Aronchik]

Yeah. Next time, more time, please.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

We'll see about that. Coming up. After the break, we return to a housing market horror story from earlier this year and learn about the surprising work benefits that some people get for having twinsies. Hi, I'm Catherine Marr, CEO of npr.

[Cory Turner]

Where we're guided by a bold mission.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

To create a more informed public. Join us today by [e-mail] all this year, NPR traveled the country hearing from.

[Mary Childs]

Voters not just about the issues, but about their hopes for the country's future.

[Kenny Malone]

We should be able to disagree with.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Each other without bullying each other into.

[Mary Childs]

Submission and what it means to be.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

A part of a democracy. Invest in coverage that moves us forward.

[Mary Childs]

Together by giving [e-mail] Ho, ho, ho.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Santa here, coming to you from the North Pole where the elves in our podcast division have just completed work on this season's best gift for public radio lovers. NPR give the gift of sponsored free listening and even bonus episodes from your favorite NPR podcasts, all while supporting public media. Learn more at plus.NPR.org hey, it's Peter Sagal, the host of Wait Wait. Don't tell me Now. If you like Wait Wait. And you're looking for another podcast where the hosts take self deprecating jabs at themselves and invite important guests on who have no business being there. Then you should check out NPR's how to Do Everything. It's hosted by two of the minds behind Wait Wait, who literally sometimes put words in my Mouth. Find the how to Do Everything podcast, wherever you are currently listening to me, go on about it. We are back. It's the rest of the story. And for our next update, we're going to revisit an episode about a kind of mortgage that seemingly will not die, mortgages that kind of rise from the grave and return from the dead. For that, we are joined by NPR Investigations correspondent Chris Arnold. Hello, Chris.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Hey, Alexi. Glad to be here.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

So why don't we start with reminding our listeners what your original story was all about?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Okay. So it was about zombie mortgages, which are about as scary as they sound.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Better than boring.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Better than boring. But you still do not want to have one of these pop up if you own a house.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Sure.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

These are loans that come from way back 2005, 2006, during the housing bubble. And back then, a lot of people got two loans when they bought a house. And the first mortgage was the bigger one for most of the money that they needed to borrow to buy the house. And then they got a smaller second mortgage to basically cover the down payment. Then the housing crash happened, and millions of Americans were facing foreclosure.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Right. So there was this big national effort to renegotiate and modify people's mortgages so they wouldn't lose their homes. And as part of that, homeowners say they were told that these second mortgages were being forgiven so they could keep on paying their main mortgage.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Right. Which all seem great, except that homeowners are now getting calls from debt collectors who say, you know what? That loan didn't die. You owe me the money. Sometimes it's twice what people borrowed in the first place. And they're demanding payment on these old loans.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Yeah. And if homeowners don't pay, these companies will foreclose on their houses. And, Chris, you found these zombie mortgages were coming back to haunt a lot of people.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah. Thousands of people. And we did an episode back in May about a woman named Karen McDonough. She's a nurse who lives in Quincy, Massachusetts. And in the episode, we told how one morning she looked out her window and she was just shocked to see this group of men gathering on her lawn. And there was one guy who was like in charge with a clipboard.

[Amanda Aronchik]

And he goes, we're selling your house.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

And I'm like, what are you talking about? He goes, don't pretend that you don't know what I'm talking about.

[Amanda Aronchik]

And I go, I. I actually don't know what you're talking about.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

So he told Karen that her home was being foreclosed on and auctioned off. And this is the house that Karen had owned for 17 years. She'd raised her kids in this house, and she'd been making payments on it. So this was, of course, like, really upsetting for Karen.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Yeah, I was, like, shaken. I'm being evicted from my house that I've been making monthly payments on and that I'm current with. And since this episode aired, a lot of other media outlets picked up the zombie mortgage story, citing your investigation. But what has happened since then, Chris?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Well, one thing is that government officials have also been looking at this issue. And after a story came out, I interviewed the attorney general in Massachusetts, Andrea Campbell, and it was pretty cool. She actually knew about our episode.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

If you listen to Karen's story from.

[Lindsay Powell]

Quincy, she's still scared about the outcome of her case.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

And her story, like so many others, is so compelling about the ongo harm.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And her office has started to take some action. It turns out the ags there have been investigating one of these companies that's been foreclosing on people's homes. The company's named Franklin Credit Management. The AG alleges it was breaking state and federal law by trying to collect on these debts. The company did not admit wrongdoing, we should say. But to avoid the risk of litigation, it struck a settlement with the ag.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

It not only addresses the issue of zombie mortgages, which we see as completely unfair practices against our residents, but most importantly, gets the monetary resources these borrowers deserve, the restitution they deserve, and $10 million in debt relief.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And what she's talking about with the $10 million there is that the company basically agreed to forgive all of the mortgages it controls for people in the state of Massachusetts. And that's more than 500 loans.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

All right, so pretty good start here, and definitely a huge boon for all the people who are getting out of these mortgages. But on the other hand, you found there are many thousands more at risk of losing their homes this way, right?

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Yeah. I mean, for sure, the settlement involved just one company and what they're doing in just one state. So Karen McDonough, the settlement doesn't help her. She's still trying to get ownership of her home back from a different company that foreclosed on it. But consumer law groups are hoping that there will be more to come with the government cracking down. And so is the Massachusetts ag, Andrea Campbell.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

We hope that other states where they might have a portfolio of borrowers, that those AGs are also paying attention. That they are, of course, in communication with our office on how we might help them get a similar outcome.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

And Alexi, I can tell you that NPR's investigations unit is also paying attention and we're talking to more homeowners and finding more companies that are doing this. So stay tuned.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

All right. We definitely will. Chris Arnold, thanks so much for keeping us up to date on everything. Zombie Mortgage.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Absolutely. Glad to do it.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Finally today we are joined by Planet Money co host Mary Childs, who has just returned from parental leave. Mary, welcome home.

[Mary Childs]

Oh, thank you, Alexi. Good to be back.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Good to have you. Now, Mary, not only have you been on parental leave, but you actually had twinsies, which you mentioned in an episode back in March where you went shopping for the best parental benefits offered by government, governments around the world.

[Mary Childs]

That is correct. I went shopping out of necessity. And Sweden won.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Of course. Sweden had some of the best social benefits in the world.

[Mary Childs]

I know, right.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

But what is your update exactly? Are you going to tell me you moved to Sweden?

[Mary Childs]

No, I wish, Alexi. I don't understand why no one has called me. I remain open to employment in Sweden. But here is my update. My episode was about benefits that parents can get in different countries, but I did not talk at all about the benefits for parents of multiples, which is the term of art among those of us who have had more than one baby at one time. Like, you know, twins or triplets or God forbid, quadruplets.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Multiples.

[Mary Childs]

Yes, multiples. I actually learned that the offering in Sweden is even better than I realized because they give additional leave for each additional baby.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Wow, that sounds like a great deal.

[Mary Childs]

Well, when it comes to multiples, it's kind of buy one, buy another. So I don't know that it's like a deal, but in Sweden, they really do offer 180 days more per marginal child on top of their existing offer of 480 days for a baby.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Not bad.

[Mary Childs]

I know. So only a few countries in the world do this. The Scandinavian countries as again, you might expect, but also Poland, Laos, Azerbaijan, Lithuania, Andorra. But again, this is unusual because in most countries it doesn't matter how many babies you grew. It is just one birth event.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

I'm going to say that Sweden and Lithuania and company's on the right side of history on this one. You got to give those babies more time to to bond and develop. I mean, imagine if the she wolf who raised Romulus and Remus had gone back to work after only 480 days. Rome might never have gotten built.

[Mary Childs]

That's exactly right, Alexei. And I'm so glad that you see this. Rome famously needs more days to be built. Obviously, there are more babies to care for and to bond with. But here is why. More leave may be medically indicated because it's typically a more complicated pregnancy for whoever is growing the babies. And it is also riskier for the infants themselves because twins, triplets, et cetera, are more likely than singletons to need time in the neonatal intensive care unit. They are more likely to have health complications, et cetera.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Even more reason for more time.

[Mary Childs]

And guess what, Alexi, you are going to be hearing more about this because the incidence of multiple babies at a time is rising.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

We're getting more multiples.

[Mary Childs]

The multiples are multiplying because, yes, more people are using fertility assistance treatments, doing ivf, et cetera, and that increases your chances. But that's not the only reason. And no one is talking about this, but they should. Another factor that increases your chances of multiples advanced maternal age. Okay, so as more people are having kids later in life than they used to, you can expect to see more twins and more people asking for longer.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Parental leave and or trying to emigrate to Sweden.

[Mary Childs]

Ah, exactly right. Please come visit me.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

You know I'm there. That'll be our next rest of the story.

[Mary Childs]

Perfect.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Today's episode was produced by Sam Yellowhorse Kessler and edited by Keith Romer and Jess Jiang. It was fact checked by Sierra Juarez and engineered by Sina Lofredo. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer. Special thanks to Edward Gilliland, Mariana Luzzi, Nicholas Saldias, Ivan Verning, and Rashik Zahid. I'm Alexi Horowitz ghazi. This is NPR. Thanks for listening.

[Cory Turner]

Hey, everybody, it's time to join NPR's All Songs Considered as we celebrate a.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Very tolerable Christmas with a mix of.

[Cory Turner]

Seasonal songs and special guests.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Yeah, we're in for like the saddest Christmas ever stuck with Robin, who is basically a lump of coal in the.

[Cory Turner]

Shape of a man.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Hear new episodes of All Songs Considered.

[Ramtin Arablouei]

Every Tuesday wherever you get podcasts.

[Lindsay Powell]

Every January, millions of people take the pledge to cut down on alcohol in the new year. If you're one of them. Count On Life Kit, NPR's self help podcast for tips and tricks you can use to make the most out of your commitment. We'll help you draw up plans and have experts weigh in on how to stay motivated and kind to yourself throughout the month. Search Life Kits Dry January. Wherever you get your podcasts for the tools you need to pull it off from NPR.

[Cory Turner]

Donald Trump promised to change Washington, D.C. a place where there's an old saying.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

That personnel is policy. That's why we have created a new podcast called Trump's Terms, where you can.

[Cory Turner]

Follow NPR's coverage of the incoming Trump administration from his cabinet secretaries to political advisors and top military leaders, to understand.

[Alexi Horowitz-Ghazi]

Who they are, what they believe, and how they'll govern. Listen to Trump's Terms from npr.