David Autor (3:09)

The story that has been told about the consequences of trade is so far from the reality of how people live that it's just, you know, it's all gains, everyone's better off. There's no real cost. I mean, in theory there could be, but in practice there's not. But that's just not the lived experience of anyone and that's not what the data ultimately shows.

Greg Rosalski (3:27)

Over the last 15 years or so, Otter, along with economists David Dorn and Gordon Hansen, have published a series of eye opening studies on something known as the China Shock. The shock refers to what happened to the United States after Chinese imports came flooding into the country starting around 2001. What the economists found was devastating. Well over a million manufacturing jobs destroyed. These job losses were hyper concentrated in communities around America. The China Shock basically created miniature depressions in these communities and former manufacturing workers struggled to adapt and get new jobs.

David Autor (4:05)

Economic research and research in all other social sciences says job loss is extremely costly. Mortality goes up, depression goes up next to, you know, going through a divorce or, you know, it's really way up there in the degree of psychic damage. Of course people can lose jobs and so on, but we shouldn't pretend that this is inconsequential.

Greg Rosalski (4:26)

Otter, Doran and Hanson recently joined with economists Maggie Jones and Bradley Setzler to revisit their influential China Shock research. This time they have even better, more precise data. And with the greater passage of time, they're able to look and see what happened to American communities hit by the China Shock over a longer time frame. Their analysis goes through 2019, the eve of the COVID 19 pandemic. In this new paper, they're able to disentangle the effects on people and the effects on places. It paints an even more nuanced and, as David describes it, bleaker picture of what happened to the manufacturing workers directly hit by the China Shock. The paper also shows how a different set of workers in these communities, like immigrants and young folks with college degrees, found jobs in new sectors that grew out of the ashes of manufacturing. So I interviewed Otter earlier this year for the Planet Money newsletter. We'll link to it in the episode Notes. It was a really wide ranging and deep conversation about the China shock economics and the role of tariffs. Some of the stuff we talked about didn't make it into the newsletter, but we're happy to be able to share it with you now in this bonus episode. Okay, here it is, my conversation with MIT economics Professor David Otter. The first sentence of your paper is is regionally concentrated job loss is a major economic challenge of our time. So first, can you just kind of, for a lay audience just explain that, like why is that a major economic challenge that this regionally concentrated job loss?

David Autor (6:02)

Well, sure. So you know, we do not have high unemployment in the United States and haven't had for a long time, but we have had declining labor force participation of less educated workers. And, and that has been strongly tied associated with the decline of blue collar work. And a lot of the non working adults are men without college degrees, many of them who might have been in kind of production work, not exclusively, but in blue collar work some time ago. And is absolutely the case that the places where manufacturing has declined the most, that's where we've seen the largest increases in joblessness among prime age adult men. And then the China trade shock provided a very focal event for seeing that because its impacts were so regional. Why are they so regional? Because, you know, although Chinese goods are sold in, you know, Walmarts all over America, the places that would have made those goods had they not come from China were very localized, right? So you have like the furniture capital, the sweatshirt capital, the United States. And you know, industry is very localized. Manufacturing is first of all, you know, hospitals and drugstores and grocery stores, you find them in every county. Manufacturing is much more concentrated, is there's a, you know, you have, you know, the place in the upper Midwest, you have places parts of the south, you have parts of the west coast, but it's not evenly dispersed in any sense. And then even more than that, where it occurs, it's very specialized, right? Place that does autos, you have a place that does tools, you have a place that does assembly, you have a place that, you know, historically does socks and textiles in various ways. So when competition from China accelerated dramatically with China's accession to the World Trade Organization 2001 and the incredible surge of imports that really made non competitive a lot of labor intensive, not particularly high tech US manufacturing, so toys, textiles, you know, commodity furniture like you would, you know, see at a Target or Walmart. And so it made those sectors just kind of non viable almost overnight. And because those sectors were so concentrated, it Made the areas in which they were located. It was just like a, you know, a kind of a bomb being dropped over downtown.

Greg Rosalski (8:11)

And the imagine that there's ripple effects obviously of that. So that's just the manufacturing and then like those people were going to their local store and buying this and that. And so there were ripple effects of that as well. In these local communities, we don't see.

David Autor (8:23)

Huge employment effects outside manufacturing, but you do see a change in the income structure and a decline in the number of high wage jobs and especially high wage jobs for workers without college degrees. Manufacturing is a historically a pretty high wage, low education sector.

Greg Rosalski (8:39)

Just a quick side question. I never hear about the NAFTA shock. Why is that? Is that just because the data's not as good or the shock wasn't as big or what?

David Autor (8:48)

No, it's because people didn't know how to measure it. In fact, there is now a literature that kind of revolution examines the NAFTA trade shock, sort of using the same toolkit that we use for the China trade shock and actually documents pretty large employment effects and large political effects. So in fact there's this lore among economists that, oh, we never really thought it had big distributional effects and was the China shock was the one that really woke us up to this. But it turns out we weren't doing a good job of measuring them when they were present and therefore we weren't learning about them even when they were happening. And so NAFTA actually was a bigger deal than it was understood not only to be at the time, but understood by economists for a couple decades subsequently. Well, one quick thing.

Greg Rosalski (9:27)

So there was this bipartisan consensus obviously for a long time on free trade. And, but like, like the time travel. I was in high school at the time. I remember the 1999 Seattle protests. I, I, and I've looked back and labor unions were certainly saying this is going to be bad for American workers. People like Bernie Sanders were saying it, Trump is saying it. And yet as far as I can tell, most economists and policymakers assume that, you know, China joining the World Trade Organization would, wouldn't be that bad. There would be obviously some losers. But we'll adjust and everything will be fine. Can you just sort of take us like from the, the mainstream economic perspective on this? Because like, like, were they just not listening to people? Do they think you're just wrong? Like what, where does, where is this, this? Like we, we didn't see it coming because it seemed like some people did see it coming.

NPR Announcer (10:15)

Yeah.

David Autor (10:16)

So as economists, we, we are you know, taught the kind of theory of comparative advantage. It says, look, free trade among consenting nations raises gdp, raises economic output in all of them. Now a caveat to that point is it doesn't make every person in those countries better off. In fact, it will in general make some people worse off. So basically it grows the pie, but it really, it's expected to shrink some slices in absolute terms. Right, and the reason is why is that true? Because trade works by changing prices and the prices of goods are directly tied to the skills used to produce them. And so if you have a lot of skills in making furniture and the price of furniture fall in half, well, your skills, your specialized skills are not going to be worth as much. And so economists have understood this really for centuries and in very formal terms since the 1950s, the Rybinsky theorem, the Stolper Samuelson theorem, they really prove that actually it'll grow the pie, but make some slices smaller. So why weren't economists more concerned about this? Well, first of all, historically a lot of the trade in the 20th century, in the post war era was trade among rich countries. And so it was more like we sell some jet engines to France, they sell us some champagne, and we kind of are all just focusing our comparative advantage. It's really not about price competition. It's around trading specialized goods in which of course it's great, we're both better off to make that trade. That's one reason. So we weren't used to major trade expansions with much lower income countries. Doesn't mean we can't benefit from that. But it's going to have different consequences. The other is the absence of evidence of adverse effects. And the absence was taken as evidence of absence, that there were no effects. But it turns out the research methods that were used to analyze that were just not really asking the right questions. They were asking questions about prices because trade works through prices. They weren't asking questions about employment. In many economic models, employment is assumed to be 100%. Everyone who wants to work can work. And so the only effects you expect to see in that case would be changes in wages. But in fact what we see is a lot of it occurs through changes in employment rates, not through changes in wages. So Doran and Hanson and I have been working on this for more than a decade. And our first paper on this, the so called China syndrome paper, took a different.

Greg Rosalski (12:32)

What year was that again? I know there was a working paper and then it was officially published paper.

David Autor (12:36)

In 2011, it was published in 2013. So lightning fast for economics. And it basically said, instead of looking at the aggregate economy and wages and prices, let's look at regional labor markets, commuting zones, clusters of counties where people live and work, of which there are 722 commuting zones by how we define them. And let's look at the ones that are more exposed to Chinese imports and the ones that are less exposed. And what we mean by more exposed is they were previously making the things in which China gained big market share. And what we mean is big market share is all countries started importing these goods from China. Right. So we don't just look at imports of sneakers to the us. We look at them in, you know, Australia and Japan and France and Germany and we, we look at the common component and say, well, if everyone is all of a sudden switching to Chinese sneakers or Chinese furniture or Chinese tools or Chinese clothing, it must be because they're, you know, they're becoming much more productive or facing lower trade barriers, right? It's not, it's not because the US is suddenly making the badly, it's just because China's gotten really good. And then we say, let's look at the geography. What places would therefore be facing reduced demand. And there you can see immediately it's incredibly first order evident actually that first of all manufacturing employment goes down. You would expect that that would have to be true. We're not buying, we're importing stuff, we're not making it. So of course manufacturing employment goes down in those areas. And then the open question is, well, what happens? Do people just find another equally good job? Does another manufacturing sector grow up, et cetera. And what we found is a rise in unemployment, a non participation, an increase in usage of social transfer benefits, some of them well targeted like unemployment insurance and trade adjustment, but a lot of them having Medicare, Medicaid, disability. And so the main result was the adjustment process was wrenching and slow and scarring. It was not like the blackboard model of labor market where you lose one job and you get another almost equally good job at another firm.

Greg Rosalski (14:33)

In other words, the model was like, I think if you've used this term before, was it they assumed there would be sort of like the seamless frictionless shifting and reallocation across the economy. People be like, oh, I lost a manufacturing job, but you know what, in this new economy I could work at X place and you know, there might be some pain in the short run, but you know, there's payments and like these places will adjust.

David Autor (14:54)

Sure. Like look, a million jobs right we're labor market of 150 million people, like how much could that matter? Right? That's like less than 1%. You know, the tide goes in and out every day, so water goes out. Why does it matter? But of course, course it's not a million jobs evenly spread across the country. Right. It was very concentrated in the South Atlantic, the deep south parts of Texas, and then a little bit on the west coast. And it was really concentrated. These were often, these industries were kind of the economic foundation of a given community.

Greg Rosalski (15:24)

So to go to this new paper, so you're disentangling the effect on place versus the effect on people. And just so I have it, why do we care about that distinction? Because I think most of the time people think, oh, an American community gets hurt, why disentangle the place versus the people?

David Autor (15:42)

Well, I think they're both valid perspectives. Right. So obviously it's not hard to make the case for the people. Right? Well, these are the people who are there. They were affected. Right. And it might legitimately feel like, wow, this really didn't work out well for us. We're pretty upset about it. And then there's like, well, how's the city of Boston doing, how's Cambridge, how's Los Angeles, how's Duluth, et cetera. And so if you looked at it from the perspective of place, you get quite a different answer because they have in many ways bounced back. And you could even point it said, look, unemployment is low, there's lots of new businesses, there's young people coming in, it's more diverse, you know, et cetera. What are you even worried about? Well, you know, if you, if you were the person who was in manufacturing at that time, you understand very well what happened and how it still feels. You actually turns out those people, you might think they all would have packed up and headed for higher ground, but in fact they became less likely to move out, possibly because they were, you know, in dire straits. So it was hard to get the resources, possibly because they didn't see better opportunities available to them than many of the places they might have gone were similarly affected. And so there was no real reason to leave.

Greg Rosalski (16:45)

Correct me if I'm wrong. So like basically free trade with China like led to de industrialization and a bunch of different communities. And then this paper saying like, you know, actually there was in fact recovery afterwards, but the jobs tended to be crappier and even, I mean it's, they're.

David Autor (17:00)

Not in industry, you know, retail, low end medical services, you know, warehousing, big box Stores, food services, some education, probably mostly public education. So they regrew employment.

Greg Rosalski (17:16)

There was new industries that came. Different industries. Yeah, yep. And, and even more of these jobs were taken by different demographic groups, which is something that like surprised me. So you're finding that after these local economies recover, the people who take the job are quote, more likely to be native born Hispanics, foreign born Hispanics and other races, women in the college educated like these jobs.

David Autor (17:37)

So basically, so that's actually really important. So US born Hispanics moved heavily into these places. Young US born Hispanics and then foreign born adults, many of them non Hispanic actually also moved in. And then there were lots of, you know, the, the. Even though men and women actually lost jobs in relatively equal numbers in manufacturing, because a lot of manufacturing job loss was in textiles and so on, which was very female intensive at that time. You saw a big rebound among women and women who not had not even previously been in the labor market entering, but not so much among men. So the gender ratio shifted.

Greg Rosalski (18:09)

But the point is though that the economy rebounds in these places, but it doesn't rebound for the people who were hurt directly by the shock.

David Autor (18:18)

That's absolutely correct.

Greg Rosalski (18:20)

So you spend a lot of time talking about the existing models and sort of this understanding of economics, because that's kind of the whole point of this paper, right? It's how local labor markets respond to trade and other shocks. And you're really stressing it's been wrong. I think you've made that abundantly clear. But what specifically these days do you think the profession is getting wrong about the sort of readjustment to trade shocks? And how do you think this new paper kind of fits into that and how you think the thinking should go?

NPR Announcer (18:46)

Sure.

David Autor (18:47)

Well, economists like to think of the world as people making optimal decisions. And so you say, well, do you imagine there are some frictions or some frictions to changing occupations or some frictions to changing places? And so it takes a long time for people to make the adjustment, but eventually you should expect it to happen. And so this is kind of a transitional cost. I guess what surprised us is the two mechanisms that seem most likely to kind of encapsulate that in the reward are one, people changing from manufacturing to non manufacturing, and the other is them relocating to other places where better opportunities would be available. And we really don't see those operating this kind of changing sectors, changing locations. And so it really seems like to a substantial degree people have cast their lot by the time they're, you know, kind of prime age adults in what they're going to be doing in adulthood and then if that changes very rapidly, it's, it's quite challenging for them to adjust.

Greg Rosalski (19:39)

Just to recap, so there's the two mechanism. One, one is like oh I, I changed my industry, I get a different job, the other is I move to a different place. And both of those seem to be broken. Instead these people I guess disproportionately are, are what are they doing? They're unemployed or are they on social assistance?

David Autor (19:54)

Many of them stay in declining manufact, manufacturing goes into long run decline and many of those people who stay working stay in manufacturing to some extent. Some leave the labor force, you know, some retire and some transition to non manufacturing. But it's not quantitatively very large. So many of them just kind of age in place.

Greg Rosalski (20:12)

And this is a bit of speculation but like what is driving that? Is there like a behavioral response? Like is this like an irrational sort of thing or are there incentives in the system that like, like disability benefits or something that allow this to.

David Autor (20:26)

It's a very rational thing. People, you know, people, why are you doing the job you do? It's the thing you're best at, the thing you enjoy, the thing that your skills, you've invested in skills, the things that you're. Is the highest paid thing you can do. Most people are doing the job that pays them the highest pay they could earn, right. And so the next set of opportunities, the outside option is very rarely as good as the one that you have. That's why you're not taking it already. And so when manufacturing declines, you know, you say, well this is, you know, this is my identity, these are my skills, this is the thing I'm best at doing. And so people stick with it to the degree they can. As the sector contracts, definitely some people lose jobs, some people transition on manufacturing, some people leave the labor force, but other people, a lot of what the contraction occurs is they'd stop hiring. And so new people don't enter the sector once it starts contracting, it just really plummets over the next 20 years. But a lot of that is through reduced entry.

Greg Rosalski (21:16)

So I think one reason why the China Shock paper resonated so much, it kind of coincided with the rise of Trumpism. And I feel like every time I read one of your papers I just feel like light bulbs, bulbs going off, for example, this paper, like I kept thinking about like the populist and nativist, nativist politics we've seen explode over the last decade. Plus I'm just curious, like has this Whole project sort of opened your eyes to this. Does it make more sense what will happen?

David Autor (21:42)

My eyes have been open to this for a while because I've been working on it for a while. But this does give more depth and nuance to the sense of wow, where, you know, essentially a lot of people, you know, they saw their communities decline and then the world changed very rapidly around them. Well, they kind of aged in place. I mean, data doesn't speak in words, but that's a very dramatic story. I want to say that there are many ways the US could have handled better this trade shock. I think the US Was very blinded by the belief that there was nothing to worry about. So why do you need a policy for a thing that's not a problem? And because of that kind of almost ideological belief that no one could be harmed, we didn't have in place adjustment policies to support workers who want to change jobs. The Obama administration actually really ran a terrific experimental project with the Trade Adjustment Assistance Program where essentially they said, look, if you take a new job soon, we'll help make up part of the difference between your old wage and your new wage, at least for a while. And that is attractive to a lot more people who don't want to go back to school. Brian Kovach of Carnegie Mellon University and co authors finds that this was actually really effective in helping people get back into the labor market. It didn't raise their earnings over the long term. It prevented the kind of long term displacement. And then there was no effort to really buffer the rate at which this occurred. Labor market transitions are slow. Things that happen over the course of a generation are much more manageable than things that happen over the course of a couple years. And the trade shock was just incredibly rapid. And there were provisions to slow it down in the sod agreements that were negotiated, but they were not used. The Bush administration didn't think they were necessary. And so if you had to do it again, some people say you shouldn't, but if you're going to do it over again, I would think you would really want to decelerate it to have it occur over a longer period of time. And you'd want to have many more policies in place to help individuals and places adjust to that.

Greg Rosalski (23:38)

Yeah, just a few more questions. So just to talk a little bit about Trump administration's recent trade actions, it seems that there's at least two different camps. They all support tariffs, but there's one camp where like, yeah, probably we'll be great for the economy, but Trump is doing all this stuff for politically necessary reasons, national security, drug inflows, that sort of stuff. And they kind of view tariffs as like this tool to accomplish political ends. And they're like, sure, maybe that will have some economic costs. And there's this other camp that seems actually STRONGER In Trump 2.0, in this administration, they look at like all the pain of free trade inflicted on Americans. Like, and often, like, I think sometimes they cite your research and I guess they think tariffs will offer like, hope that like, maybe all this can go into reverse. So what is your perspective on this? Like, why do you think tariffs are so back in vogue? And do you think they can help reverse the damage that you and your colleagues have so diligently found?

David Autor (24:32)

So I think you're right that there are these two camps. One, who views tariffs as a kind of a temporary negotiating tool, a way to rebalancing, another to just use it as we ought to just isolate ourselves from the rest of the world. There's a lot more to disagree with in the second camp. Right, because, you know, so much of the stuff that even is manufactured here uses foreign parts and all these intermediary goods. And when you place tariffs, you're basically creating costs and frictions for all of those transactions. You're going to raise costs for US Manufacturers. And we saw the first round of Trump tariffs didn't do much for US Manufacturing. We don't see any evidence that actually caused a rebound. It mostly caused prices to rise. Now that doesn't mean there's no role for trying to regulate or control trade. I think if you were trying to make the case that what we really need to do is reinvigorate certain sectors, you wouldn't say, well, what we really need to get back is SOC manufacturing, commodity, furniture, doll assembly. Right. Those things aren't coming back and they couldn't be competitive in the United States. Those are low value added, labor intensive sectors. You're not, you know, they're just not viable in a country like ours anymore. They, they were in some sense legacy sectors. They wouldn't have stayed with us forever. But you could say, well, what we really want is, you know, we want to have EVs, we want to have semiconductors, we want to have solar collectors, we want to have wind turbines, we want to have networking equipment, telecommunications, aviation, high tech stuff. Exactly.

Greg Rosalski (25:50)

Value add.

David Autor (25:51)

And then you could say, well, how would we do that? Well, we could create some temporary barriers to protect ourselves, but then we got to invest in ourselves simultaneously. Right. You can't just keep winning races by hobbling your opponents, you eventually have to bulk up and run.

Greg Rosalski (26:04)

So in other words, you're saying something that's instead of this blunt instrument of just throw up a wall, you're saying we need more of a strategic vision where sure, you're open to tariffs as part of a more comprehensive strategy to create growing industries that will provide good jobs to a lot of people who have been left behind in America.

David Autor (26:25)

And not just good jobs, but also advance the technology. If you're not playing in those fields, you're not going to be at the frontier of them. It matters to the US that we have Apple and Microsoft and OpenAI. It's not simply that we like those products. We like the fact that they are based here. A lot of the profits flow here and the innovation is occurring here and that leads to more innovation and we don't want to lose that edge. So I think and that's not just about jobs. It's also about productivity growth and profitability and economic leadership and even thought leadership.

Greg Rosalski (27:01)

Thanks to David Otter do you have suggestions for people I don't know, like economists, policymakers, business leaders that I should interview for a future newsletter or even topics you want to know more about? Let me know. Just email your ideas to planetmoneypr.org okay. As always, thank you for being a Planet Money plus supporter. It's one of the best ways to help keep our work going. Another good way is to spread the word. So when you love an episode, please feel free to tell a friend or send them the link. It really matters. We'll be back with another bonus episode for you in a couple of weeks. I'm Greg Rosolski and this is NPR.

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