Why it's so hard to find a public toilet

Summary

Planet Money Explores the Decline of Public Restrooms and the Legacy of Pay Toilets

Episode Title: Why it's so hard to find a public toilet
Release Date: May 2, 2025
Host: Erica Barris
Podcast: Planet Money by NPR

---

Introduction: The Modern Public Toilet Dilemma

In the Planet Money episode titled "Why it's so hard to find a public toilet," host Erica Barris delves into the perplexing scarcity of accessible public restrooms in contemporary America. Through vivid storytelling and expert insights, the episode navigates the historical prevalence of pay toilets, the grassroots movements that sought to eliminate them, and the unforeseen consequences that ensued from their removal.

---

Section 1: The Public Toilet Crisis Today

Personal Journeys and Modern Solutions

Erica Barris sets the stage with a relatable scenario: needing immediate access to a restroom while navigating a city. She introduces Teddy Siegel, a "public toilet influencer" and professional opera singer, who created "Got to Go," a crowdsourced map listing accessible bathrooms.

• Notable Interaction:
  • [00:32] Erica: "Have you ever had to desperately find a restroom in a city and struggled to locate one?"
  • [01:26] Teddy: "It really just depends like when you're catching the toilet."

Teddy recounts her experiences in New York City, where she often found herself without access to free restrooms. This led her to compile and share locations through TikTok, making public facilities more discoverable.

• Impact of "Got to Go":
  • [02:24] Teddy: "Here are the top 10 best free bathrooms in New York City according to an expert on public bathrooms, AKA me."

Her efforts highlight the ongoing struggle to find accessible restrooms and the creative solutions individuals are employing to navigate this issue.

---

Section 2: The Rise of Pay Toilets

Historical Context and Ubiquity of Pay Toilets

Barris transitions to the historical prevalence of pay toilets in the mid-20th century, particularly in Ohio during the 1950s and 60s. She introduces Michael and Ira Gessel, two brothers who grew up in Dayton, Ohio, and formed a strong opposition to pay toilets.

• Michael's Perspective:
  • [06:05] Michael: "I would maybe describe myself as a creative nerd."
  • [08:53] Michael: "Pay toilets were extortion, and I was not going to be extorted."

Pay toilets were widespread, installed in department stores, bus stations, and restaurants. They operated by requiring a dime for access, which many, including the Gessel brothers, found unjust and invasive.

• Historical Anecdote:
  • [07:00] Barris: "By the 1960s, when Michael was a kid, there were about 50,000 pay toilets. They were the norm."

Despite initial resistance at the 1893 Chicago World's Fair, pay toilets quickly became the standard, offering amenities like attendants, soap, and towels, albeit at a cost that many deemed inequitable.

---

Section 3: Grassroots Resistance – The Committee to End Pay Toilets in America

Activism and Organizational Efforts

At age 14, Michael Gessel, along with his brother Ira, took a stand against pay toilets by founding the Committee to End Pay Toilets in America (C.E.P.T.A.) in 1968. This organization aimed to advocate for free public restrooms and eliminate pay-to-use facilities.

• Formation and Early Actions:
  • [09:21] Michael: "We weren't real partygoers. We tended not to get invited to parties."
  • [09:45] Barris: "Ira got his op ed published in a school newspaper, and it caught the attention of other kids."

C.E.P.T.A. published a newsletter titled "Free Toilet Paper," featuring a logo of a clenched fist rising from a toilet, symbolizing resistance. The group organized protests, wrote songs like "Talkin Toilet Blues," and developed strategies to circumvent pay toilet locks, such as the "sacrificial lamb" method.

• Notable Quote:
  • [10:23] Michael: "I reached my dime. I walked into the men's room one day and I went to the toilet but had to pay."

Their activism resonated with broader social movements of the time, including civil rights and feminism, which also addressed issues of equity and access in public facilities.

---

Section 4: The Downfall of Pay Toilets and Public Bathrooms

Legislative Changes and Unintended Consequences

By the early 1970s, C.E.P.T.A.'s efforts began to bear fruit. In 1973, a significant press conference in Chicago led to local legislators pushing for the ban of pay toilets. The movement gained momentum, leading to widespread legislative actions across various states.

• Success and Momentum:
  • [13:39] Michael: "It was like, wow, we actually did it."

However, the elimination of pay toilets without establishing a robust system for free public restrooms created a vacuum. John Cochran, known as "the Grumpy Economist," critiques this outcome by highlighting the unintended consequences.

• Economic Analysis:
  • [15:15] Cochran: "Without that incentive, Nicoloc was right. The free public toilets were overrun with people who had to go or people abusing drugs or having sex."

As pay toilets disappeared, so did their free counterparts. The lack of funding and maintenance led to the closure and deterioration of the remaining public toilets, exacerbating the public's restroom crisis.

---

Section 5: Modern-Day Implications and Challenges

Public Toilets as a Public Good

Rick Weinmeier, a public health law professor at Loyola University, argues that public toilets should be considered a public good—resources that everyone can benefit from without diminishing their availability to others.

• Expert Insight:
  • [19:39] Public Health Expert: "I would think so, right? I would argue that they're a public good."
  • [20:06] Expert: "They contribute to human flourishing, right? They contribute to the construction of our society and our communal well being."

The U.S. government, however, has historically neglected to prioritize public toilets, leading to regulatory and market failures. The current reliance on businesses to provide restrooms effectively reintroduces a pay-to-use model, limiting access and fostering discrimination.

• Market Critique:
  • [21:51] Expert: "I think it's a market failure. I think it's a regulatory failure. I think it's a public health failure."

Without proper incentives or government intervention, the supply of free public restrooms remains insufficient to meet the population's needs.

---

Section 6: Potential Solutions and the Future of Public Restrooms

Balancing Government and Market Approaches

The episode examines potential solutions to the public restroom crisis, weighing pure market solutions against government intervention.

• Market Solutions:

  • Reintroducing pay toilets with tiered pricing to cater to different budgets.
  • Implementing innovative designs to make pay toilets more user-friendly and accessible.

• Government Solutions:

  • Treating restrooms as true public goods funded by taxpayers.
  • Offering tax breaks to businesses that provide free public restrooms.

New York City's 2006 attempt to install modern pay toilets serves as a case study. Despite plans to add 20 pay toilets, only seven were installed due to maintenance challenges, highlighting the difficulties in sustaining such initiatives.

• On-Site Example:
  • [25:08] Teddy: "You have to put a quarter in in order for it to open. And there's a sign on it that says 15 minutes max."

The search continues for a sustainable blend of government support and market incentives to ensure accessible public restrooms for all.

---

Conclusion: Rethinking Public Spaces for Basic Needs

Erica Barris wraps up the episode by emphasizing the critical need to address the public restroom crisis through collaborative efforts between government entities and private businesses. The legacy of pay toilets serves as a cautionary tale about the complexities of managing public goods and the importance of foresight in policy-making.

---

Notable Quotes

• Michael Gessel on Pay Toilets:

  • [08:53] "Pay toilets were extortion, and I was not going to be extorted."

• John Cochran on Public Toilets Removal:

  • [15:15] "Without that incentive, Nicoloc was right. The free public toilets were overrun..."

• Public Health Expert on Public Goods:

  • [20:14] "They contribute to human flourishing, right? They contribute to the construction of our society and our communal well being."

---

Final Thoughts

"Why it's so hard to find a public toilet" offers a comprehensive exploration of an often-overlooked aspect of urban living. By intertwining personal narratives, historical accounts, and economic analysis, Planet Money sheds light on the intricate dynamics that have shaped the availability of public restrooms today. The episode underscores the necessity of reimagining public spaces to meet fundamental human needs, advocating for solutions that balance accessibility, equity, and sustainability.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Discover. Accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. If you don't think so, maybe it's time to face facts. You're stuck in the past. Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report. [e-mail] CreditCard this message comes from NPR sponsor Intercom. Fin by Intercom, the leading AI customer service agent is now available on every help desk named the 1 AI agent in G2's winner. Report [e-mail] NPR.

[Erica Barris]

This is Planet Money from NPR. We have all been there. Do you have a restroom I could use?

[John Cochran]

Restroom?

[Erica Barris]

No, no. You're walking around in a town, in a city and you have got to go. So you pop into a nail salon.

[Teddy Siegel]

Hello, do you have a restroom we could use?

[Erica Barris]

All right. No on the nail salon. You try a smoke shop.

[Teddy Siegel]

I'll try anywhere. I don't care.

[Erica Barris]

This is Teddy Siegel and if you're out in New York City, Teddy's got your back. Are you a public toilet influencer?

[Teddy Siegel]

Sure, yeah, I guess so.

[Erica Barris]

She's being humble. Teddi's created this crowdsourced, publicly accessible, accessible Google map. It is like a maze of all the places you can just walk into and use the bathroom.

[Teddy Siegel]

It really just depends like when you're catching the toilet.

[Erica Barris]

Churches, bookstores, hotels.

[Teddy Siegel]

Barnes and Noble is like close ish that way.

[Erica Barris]

It started in New York and now includes the US And a bunch of other countries. It's called Got to Go.

[Teddy Siegel]

People come up to me on the street and are like, bathroom girl.

[Erica Barris]

It all started a few years ago when she was new to the city. She was out shopping and needed to go, but no store would let her use their bathroom. Finally she went to a McDonald's and they told her she had to buy something to use their bathroom.

[Teddy Siegel]

So I quickly bought a water bottle, ran up the stairs, thankfully made it in time.

[Erica Barris]

And when she did, the bathroom was just there, open, accessible to anyone. Like she didn't actually have to buy anything. So she went outside and made a TikTok. Guilt free places to pee in NYC McDonald's. Then she made another.

[Teddy Siegel]

Here are the top 10 best free bathrooms in New York City according to an expert on public bathrooms, AKA me.

[Erica Barris]

And another if you're out in New.

[Teddy Siegel]

York City and gotta go, Here are my top 5 tricks on how to find a bathroom quickly.

[Erica Barris]

And now every time she's out in the world, she's adding and subtracting from her bathroom map. We check out a dim sum place.

[Teddy Siegel]

It says restroom for customers only. Please help keep it clean Everyone just.

[Erica Barris]

Keeps nodding, no, no, no. Now, Teddi isn't just a public toilet influencer. She is also a professional opera singer. Is there a toilet song?

[Teddy Siegel]

I don't think there is a toilet.

[Erica Barris]

Song, but there is an aria that is all about desperation, about this girl.

[Teddy Siegel]

Begging her dad to marry this guy and if he says no, she's gonna throw herself off a bridge. Very dramatic. But that's sometimes how I feel like I will do anything that it takes in order to find a bathroom.

[Erica Barris]

And so, in the middle of Manhattan, flanked by skyscrapers, while cars and people whiz by, she starts to sing. O mio babino caro.

[Teddy Siegel]

Do you have a bathroom that we could use? Okay. That's okay. Thank you.

[Erica Barris]

Do you have a public restroom we could use?

[Teddy Siegel]

I bet they have a coat on the door.

[Erica Barris]

Hello and welcome to Planet Money. I'm Erica Barris. Out here in these streets using crowdsourced maps just to find a place to go. Why is this a system we have? There could be a very simple free market solution to all this. We could pay to use a bathroom. Why can't we? Today on the show, we hardly have any public toilets in the US but we used to. And we also used to have thousands of paid toilets. This is the story of how they both went away. That is a satisfying flushing sound.

[John Cochran]

It is.

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Apple Card. With Apple Card, you can get up to 3% daily cash back every day wherever you shop, subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail] this message comes from Daft Giving 360. No matter why you give, your donations can do so much more with a donor advised fund. From Daft Giving360. You can potentially grow your charitable dollars tax free and give now or over time by donating cash, publicly traded securities or non cash assets like real estate and even Crypto. With over 25 years of expertise, Daft Giving360 can help you make a greater impact. Learn more at dafgiving360.org this message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices like full service, wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on thinkorswim. Visit schwab.com to learn more.

[Erica Barris]

When I set out to understand why it is so hard to find a proper place to pee, I discovered two surprising reasons. Michael and Ira, two brothers who grew up in Dayton, Ohio in the 1950s and 60s what kind of kid were you? Were you like a mini beat poet?

[Michael Gessel]

I would maybe describe myself as a creative nerd.

[Erica Barris]

This is the younger brother, Michael Gessel. He and Ira had this one pet peeve. Pay toilets.

[Michael Gessel]

Pay toilets were everywhere.

[Erica Barris]

Pay toilets, like a payphone, think a bathroom, but with a lock on the door. You'd put in a dime and get to use the bathroom. And when Michael was growing up, they were all over the place.

[Michael Gessel]

Pay toilets were in the main department store. Pay toilets were in Greyhound bus stations, in restaurants. They were really everywhere.

[Erica Barris]

Cities and businesses, they would lease locks from private companies so they could profit off of people's need to go. Newspapers, sometimes published how much money the pay toilets made. Like at the San Francisco airport, they brought a net profit of $48,456 in one year. In 1960s money, you couldn't live life.

[Michael Gessel]

Without encountering pay toilets.

[Erica Barris]

And these pay toilets have a fascinating history. First, when cities started becoming crowded in the late 1800s, with industrialization, immigration, there was this problem. Rich people had plumbing, but most other people did not. They just went outside. It was unsightly and diseases could spread. So cities started putting in free toilets. Like in some places, little standalone brick buildings with signs that said comfort station. And pretty quickly, an idea for a new market emerged. In 1893, at the world's Fair in Chicago, pay toilets made their splashy debut. These toilets were an upgrade. Toilet 2.0. These pay toilets had luxuries like attendants and soap and towels. And almost immediately, actually, at the World's Fair, there was an uproar. These pay toilets were a lot nicer than the free toilets. But also there were complaints about equity, like, why were there haves and have nots when it came to toilets? Well, the pay toilets took hold anyway. So by the 1960s, when Michael was a kid, there were about 50,000 pay toilets. They were the norm.

[Michael Gessel]

My brother and I thought that pay toilets were an unfair infringement on our rights. We were offended by pay toilets.

[Erica Barris]

This was was the era of civil rights, women's rights, rebellion against the status quo. Michael's rebellion was against pay toilets.

[Michael Gessel]

To me, pay toilets were extortion, and I was not going to be extorted.

[Erica Barris]

Why did you think they were extortion?

[Michael Gessel]

Well, because if you had to use a toilet, you had to use a toilet.

[Erica Barris]

There were still free public toilets too. And men had the option of urinals, also free. But basically you had these two tiers of toilets, nice ones you paid for, or dumpier free ones. And in 1968, when Michael was 14 and Ira was 17, they decided they wanted to do something about it. They made their big plans on New Year's Eve.

[Michael Gessel]

We weren't real partygoers. We tended not to get invited to parties. So Ira and I were sitting alone trying to come up with something to do. And so Ira sat down at his typewriter and he wrote an article called End Pay Toilets. And it urged people to write to Congress to support legislation to ban pay toilets.

[Erica Barris]

Ira got his op ed published in a school newspaper, and it caught the attention of other kids. Ira and Michael and some friends eventually started a club, the Committee to End Pay Toilets in America. Septia. You know, like Septic. They published a newsletter called the Free Toilet Paper. They had a logo. A clenched fist clutching chains and rising out of a toilet. They wrote songs like the Talkin Toilet Blues and the Ballad of the Pay Toilet. How did the Ballad of the Pay Toilet go? Can you sing it for me?

[Michael Gessel]

You know, I think I'll pass on that.

[Erica Barris]

Or maybe he won't pass.

[Michael Gessel]

I reached my dime. I walked into the men's room one day and I went to the toilet but had to pay. I reached in my pocket in search for a dime, but nature was calling. I hadn't much time. And then it started getting a little bit more serious.

[Erica Barris]

They put out this resistance guide, ways to get around the locks on the pay toilets. There was the sacrificial lamb, where you paid and held the door open for others. The American crawl where you slipped under the door. The club stopped feeling like just an outlet.

[Michael Gessel]

Either we actually do something or we just give up and move on.

[Erica Barris]

There's an expression about that, right, isn't it? Like Kiss or get off the pot. Something like that. Michael and his friends planned protests, boycotts, pressure campaigns. And this was coming soon after. People pushed for racial desegregation in all kinds of facilities, including bathrooms. Bathroom equity was on people's minds in lots of ways. There were other small groups like Michaels, like Flush Flush Free Latrines Unlimited for Suffering Humanity. Also around this time, feminists were pissed about the pay toilets. If urinals were free, why did pay toilets cost a dime? In 1969, there was a Down with Pay Potties protest. A huge crowd of people marched to the California State Capitol with a brass band waving signs that read, Put up or Flush up and we don't give a dime. At the center of it all was then California State assembly member March Fong Yu.

[Michael Gessel]

You know, as most of you know.

[Teddy Siegel]

I hadn't intended that I would get as much support as I did.

[Michael Gessel]

But evidently the pressure is mounting.

[Erica Barris]

She is wearing a pink suit, black pumps. She has her hair teased in this perfect arc around her head. And she's speaking next to a toilet encircled by a locked chain.

[Michael Gessel]

The movement is on.

[Erica Barris]

And then she takes a sledgehammer to that toilet. I missed the job.

[Michael Gessel]

I missed. Oh, she was the hero. She had pulled her stunt. And she was an inspiration for the committee to endpay toilets in America.

[Erica Barris]

Pretty soon, newspapers started writing about Michael's club.

[Michael Gessel]

We got hundreds of heartfelt letters. We got enormous support from people who had been feeling the same way that we felt, but really had no one to complain to.

[Erica Barris]

After a few years, Michael. Michael and his friends all went off to college and started club chapters in different cities. And in 1973, they decided to hold a press conference in Chicago where they spoke of biological function and discrimination and the indignity of pay toilets. By that time, there were already local officials in Chicago pushing to ban them. Some even came to Michael's event. And soon after, the mayor banned pay toilets in. In public places in Chicago.

[Michael Gessel]

It was like, wow, we actually did it. We actually got something done. If we are serious, we might actually be able to accomplish our mission of eliminating pay toilets from the United States.

[Erica Barris]

And then did you?

[Michael Gessel]

We kept on going.

[Erica Barris]

Michael's movement went the 70s version of viral. Over the next few years, legislators in many states started banning pay toilets. Now, the pay toilet companies obviously hated this. So did businesses like Greyhound. They didn't want to offer free toilets that they would have to clean and maintain and stock. So they sued. They fought it. The biggest toilet lock company was called Nicoloc. And in their lawsuit, they predicted what economists call an unintended consequence. They wrote that getting rid of pay toilets would actually encourage the deterioration and closing of the free toilets. But they couldn't stop it. At the height of pay toilets, when Michael was in high school, there were about 50,000 of them. By 1980, there were just about none. And just as Nicolaock predicted, the public toilets started going away, too.

[John Cochran]

I think the activists who wanted toilet equity did not imagine the solution would be no toilet or fight with businesses over who's going to be able to use the toilet.

[Erica Barris]

This is John Cochran. He's got a blog called the Grumpy Economist, and he once wrote a post about how when the pay toilets went away, so did the public toilets.

[John Cochran]

There needs to be incentive for somebody to build and maintain the toilets.

[Erica Barris]

Without that incentive, Nicoloc was right. The free public toilets were overrun with people who had to go or people abusing drugs or having sex. Cities were changing. In lots of places they struggled to fund and maintain public places. With no income from the toilets, taking care of them was harder than ever. Cities couldn't deal. Eventually they closed them or let them fall into disrepair. The pay toilets may have been flawed, but they served a purpose that no public or private entity has been able to effectively fill since. John says this is a classic tale of a price control. When the government imposes a price, anytime.

[John Cochran]

The government says here's the price at which you can charge, you can't charge anything more, then more people want it than would want it otherwise. And then other people don't have the incentive to provide it. So there's less supply and more demand and you can't get what you want.

[Erica Barris]

This is a price control, I suppose. But they just got rid of all prices. Price control of 0. The price control at 0 is exactly what Michael Gessel wanted when he started his fight a half a century ago. When the pay toilets started going away, what did you think would fill in that void?

[Michael Gessel]

There'd just be a hole where a lock used to be.

[Erica Barris]

Over the years, Michael has read critiques that blame his movement for the decline of toilets, even the decline of cities. Do you have any regrets?

[Michael Gessel]

No regrets. And I feel very proud of the work that we did. I think that patriots were offensive and I think that to have contributed in a way that eliminated them, at least in the United States, is a good thing. And I think it's just not credible to blame a bunch of high school and college students 50 years ago for the decline of downtown and urban areas.

[Erica Barris]

So who should be in charge of toilets? And we find our way to a modern version of a good old fashioned pay toilet. That's after the break.

[Rick Weinmeier]

This message comes from Discovery. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the last 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. And every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report, this message comes from Capital One with the Capital One Saver card. Earn unlimited 3% cash back on dining and entertainment. Capital One what's in your wallet? Terms apply [e-mail] this message comes from.

[Advertiser]

BetterHelp Therapy can be expensive, but at BetterHelp. They believe therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury, which is why they offer quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it, and now it's within reach. Visit betterhelp.com NPR to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com NPR this message comes from LinkedIn ads. Target your buyers by job title, company role and skills with LinkedIn ads. All the professionals you need to reach in one place. Get a $100 credit on your next campaign at LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply.

[Erica Barris]

Rick Weinmeier is a public health law professor at Loyola University in Chicago. And because he studies toilets, his friends are constantly sending him photos of the most delightful and the most disgusting stalls around the world.

[Public Health Expert]

Oh, I was in this country or I was in this city and I had to use the bathroom and I thought about you, right? Nothing, nothing warms my heart more than that.

[Erica Barris]

And I asked him, are public toilets a public good?

[Public Health Expert]

I would think so, right? I would argue that they're a public good.

[Erica Barris]

A public good. In economics, a public good is something that everyone can benefit from. And very importantly, one person benefiting from it doesn't stop another person from benefiting from it as well. Think clean air or lighthouses. Governments typically decide what to treat like a public good, and Rick says he would put public toilets on that list.

[Public Health Expert]

They contribute to human flourishing, right? They contribute to the construction of our society and our communal well being.

[Erica Barris]

The problem is the US Government has never fully embraced toilets as a public good. It's just not been a priority.

[Public Health Expert]

If you're worried about failing schools, Public toilets don't necessarily capture the imagination of politicians or of constituents necessarily to the level that these other pressing challenges pose.

[Erica Barris]

Toilets fall into this economic and legal netherworld where pay toilets are prohibited. The government is preventing the free market from solving the problem, but they also aren't treating it like a public good. They're not providing sufficient bathrooms to the public. And when they do, it can be the stuff of nightmares. Like this bathroom Rick once used in Central Park.

[Public Health Expert]

There were no doors.

[Erica Barris]

Oh my goodness, I do remember that.

[Public Health Expert]

There was a little bit of toilet paper but no soap. It was just like hot, hot, hot because there was clearly no air conditioning. A lot of the toilets didn't have seats. I was just like, you know, miserable and exposed to the world.

[Erica Barris]

In most places, there are some basic bathroom rights. There are building and plumbing codes requiring certain types of businesses to offer Bathrooms. Or if you have a pressing medical need, you can get a card and legally access just about any bathroom. But most people don't know these rights. They don't know how to hold businesses accountable.

[Public Health Expert]

Someone's going to have to enforce that. Right. Someone's going to have to come along and. Right. And we don't have bathroom police.

[Erica Barris]

Would you call this like a regulatory failure?

[Public Health Expert]

I would call this an across the board failure. I think it's a market failure. I think it's a regulatory failure. I think it's a public health failure. The average person needs to use the bathroom six to eight times a day. And the fact that you cannot fill that need is just shocking.

[Erica Barris]

And the way, of course, that many of us fill that need is by paying. Just not the way we used to.

[Public Health Expert]

You go into Starbucks and you pay for a coffee, or you go to Nordstrom's and you buy a shirt and then you can go and use the restroom.

[Erica Barris]

I've done it.

[Public Health Expert]

Yeah, we all have. Right. And so in certain ways, we already have kind of this deck de facto pay toilet system, but we have this way of kind of dancing around what that need is.

[Erica Barris]

Is it so bad? Is it so terrible?

[Public Health Expert]

I think it's not a great idea.

[Erica Barris]

One, businesses can pick and choose who they let into their bathroom, and that leaves a lot of room for discrimination. Plus, a lot of businesses just don't want to be a public bathroom provider.

[Public Health Expert]

And I don't necessarily fault them for that. Right. Like, if I have an Italian restaurant, I want to be focused on providing the best Italian food for my customers. I don't want to necessarily be providing bathrooms to the rest of the public.

[Erica Barris]

So providing toilets has just fallen into this huge crack where some of our most complicated needs also get stuck, like housing, health care, education. Somewhere between a market solution and a government one. The pure market solution would be to bring back pay toilets. Have a bougie $10 a visit boutique pay toilet insta ready with neon music playing. Oonts Oons, fresh cut flowers. If you're balling on a budget, you get fake flowers and you pay $2. And then there's the no frills but you just gotta go option. That is 25 cents. But that wouldn't serve people who can't pay at all, like people without homes who arguably need them the most. The pure government solution would mean treating bathrooms like a true public good, something everyone can benefit from together. But that means convincing taxpayers to foot what can be a hefty bill. San Francisco infamously planned to buy one public toilet for more than a million dollars. So the search is on for the right blend of government and market solutions. Tax breaks for businesses that allow the public to go, or tokens instead of quarters for bathroom locks, which would get around the ban on pay toilets. Meanwhile, in the city of New York, they are no longer banned.

[Public Health Expert]

You are getting pay toilets. New York City has an exception that it can have pay toilets.

[Erica Barris]

In 2006, the city announced they'd add 20 pay toilets to the thousand or so public toilets in the city. They installed seven and the others have been in storage since. Apparently they're pretty hard to install and maintain. So does anyone have a quarter?

[Teddy Siegel]

Let me check. I don't think I do.

[Erica Barris]

Public toilet influencer and opera singer Teddy Siegel took me to see the very first one they installed. So this is it.

[Teddy Siegel]

This is it.

[Erica Barris]

One stall off of Madison Square Park. A rectangular metal pod with what looks like an elevator control panel next to a sealed door.

[Teddy Siegel]

You have to put a quarter in in order for it to open. And there's a sign on it that says 15 minutes max. And so I guess you have 15 minutes to do your business and then the door is going to open whether you're done or not. There is also what looks like a pee puddle behind it. I don't know if that's water or just pee, but.

[Erica Barris]

And the occupied sign stays red for longer than 15 minutes. So maybe it's out of order. If you're new to Planet Money, there is more to us than just toilets. We also talk about trade deficits, tariffs and the egg shortage. News shows drop every Wednesday and every Friday.

[Michael Gessel]

When along came a man with a big hairy chin he said, what's the matter? And I started to holler I need a dime and all I've got is a dollar.

[Erica Barris]

This episode was produced by Willa Rubin with help from James Sneed. It was edited by Marianne McCune and it was fact checked by Cierra Juarez Engineering by Sina Lofredo. Alex Goldmark is our executive producer. Big thank you to Rob Unterborn. I'm Erica Barris. This is npr. This is. Thanks for listening.

[Rick Weinmeier]

This message comes from Capella University. At Capella, you'll learn relevant in demand skills you can apply in the workplace right away. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].

[Advertiser]

This message comes from Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile took what's wrong with wireless and made it right. They offer premium wireless plans for less and all plans include high speed data, unlimited talk and text and nationwide coverage. See for [e-mail] Switch this message comes.

[Rick Weinmeier]

From Ezcator, committed to helping organizations order and manage food for all their business needs, with search tools to help accommodate dietary preferences and stay on budget, plus flexible payment by credit card or invoicing. Ezcator also offers employee lunch programs, tools to see and control food spend, and 247 live customer support all on one platform. Learn [e-mail].