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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. What it is. Welcome to planet Tyrus. And as you should know, I'm Tyrus. I am beyond excited with my guest today. I love talking about all things Mother Nature and I love talking about evolution and fossils and one of the coolest things we've had in, in my lifetime anyways that I feel was, was when we brought back the dire wolf. I thought that was amazing that we brought something back from de extinction that is awesome. The power of science. And you cannot get there without my guest today, Ben Lamb, who's the co founder and CEO of Colossal Biosciences. And it's a Texas based biotechnology company built building de extinction which means like if your ass is gone, your whole tree is gone, they could bring you back. So there's some real exciting things we're going to talk about today. Different animals and I have a wish list trying to get my woolly rhino back and so without further ado, let's do this. First of all, hey man, thanks for doing this.
- [01:08]
B
Yeah, no, I'm super excited. Thanks for having me.
- [01:11]
A
Now obviously the direwolf, you know, got really popular in Game of Thrones, right? That's when yeah, they and I think a lot of people thought it was invented in the Game of Thrones. Like it's some.
- [01:24]
B
So people actually from the cat. I won't out anybody but there are people on the cast that also believe that.
- [01:30]
A
Yeah, it's wild to me. Like do your. I mean, I guess if you're not into to animals or prehistoric history and stuff, I, I guess it would be a, a slip, you know, because I guess they had giants there, but I guess there's evidence. It's possible there was giant people at one time, so who knows?
- [01:46]
B
There's all kinds of stuff. I think every day we're learning more stuff, right?
- [01:50]
A
Yeah. And I think one of the cool things about what you do is you can also long term as far as conservation, not just for wolves, but people too. Like being able to, to be able to have DNA records and have like in capsules and things like that in case, in case of population break glass, you know, you know something.
- [02:13]
B
Yeah, like, like full genetic rescue across all vertebrate species is something that we're crazy passionate about. And you know what's crazy is like a lot of the de extinction work that we do gets headlines, which is amazing and it's by design, but it inspires kids, gets people excited about like one of the reasons we did the direwolf was, you know, we were working through like the mammoth and the Dodo and some of our other projects. But then when we thought that we could actually pull out the direwolf and when we actually went and talked to some of the indigenous people groups and people were excited about the direwolf, we looked at the wolf conservation. There was this angle that's like we can get kids and like fantasy fans from Game of Thrones or Magic the Gathering or World of Warcraft, that, that where these animals like persist, but people think they're mythical to get into like science and excitement. Right. We think that's pret exciting. And then we've kind of leveraged that momentum to then apply all those technologies to conservation. And what's amazing, kind of what you said about all of the species backups is that's a major focus of our foundation is like, how do we go build a DNA record store of life on Earth? Because we're just losing a lot of species really quick.
- [03:22]
A
Well, well, a couple of things. The Earth doesn't seem to like life very much as a whole. Yeah, it seems like it's like what been five mass extinctions on this planet, I think is what we're at right now currently. Us not included, but yeah. And life always seems to, to find a way, you know, and we're, we're discovering so many new things. I mean, that little tiny dude that can live in Antarctica, he can live in lava, like. He can. Yeah.
- [03:52]
B
Or water bear, they call them like water bears.
- [03:54]
A
Yeah, water bears. Yeah. So, I mean, you, you, you're seeing things and I think this potentially could have the same effect with what you guys are doing as what dinosaurs did for me when I was coming up, because I remember the first time going to the library and seeing it, it was, I think it was a brontosaurus on the COVID of the book. And this is when they, the, the tech. The understanding was their tails dragged on the ground and they, you know, they were just these big lumbering lizards, thunder lizards and all that stuff. But I remember just being hooked, like I could not get a dinosaur book fast enough. And then I remember I got a little older. It was Save the Whales. It was a big, you know, and I wanted to learn everything there was.
- [04:33]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's certain.
- [04:36]
A
And then of course, anything that David Attenborough talked on science, I just actually went back, I found them on Apple and went and watched all the science of life back in the day. I forgot like how, how far we've come in technology in terms of how to start a show. Like the beginning credits. It's like A pigeon flying that turns into a fog. It's like pretty. It's like, wow, this stuff is. But it's those type of things that inspire you. Although my life ended up not going the scientific route because of sports and other stuff, but I never lost the passion for it, so.
- [05:06]
B
Well, you know, it's crazy is like they say that dinosaurs are like the gateway drug for the sciences. Right. And you know what, what I think, you know, proves true with this. But also there's been studies that have come out that have said if your kids are interested in died in dinosaurs, they have a high likelihood of being successful in different curiosity points around science and even successful in life. And so the people who had map kind of like if you're interested in dinosaurs, kind of like what that does over time. And what's interesting is most people don't know this. I said this. I just was in Davos for that insanity. And, and when I was there, I said this and I was, I got asked about times afterwards. I, I've just never said it publicly. But 30% of our investors came to us through their kids. Think about that. Like 30% of our investors found out about colossal and then got excited about the business and what we're building through their kids. And this is like the only investment they talk about with their kids. Like, I'm not the biggest sports guy, full disclosure. But like Tom Brady invested. His kids told him about it.
- [06:08]
A
Yeah.
- [06:09]
B
Like, how crazy is that? Right? And so, so we've gotten 30% of the capital because these kid evangelists have gone to their parents and said, hey, I'm really excited about this. And they're like, wait, there's a company doing this? And then it started a dialogue.
- [06:23]
A
Well, not just that, but you think about it. If, if a kid, child or whatever wants to get into dinosaurs, the whole point is they're not around to go watch at the zoo. So there's only one way to do it. You have to research, you have to read, you have to search. So you have to fact find. So all those things. What parent in their right mind would not want to get behind that? Because it's not only the cool thing with mother Nature and animals, but their, their child is taking a interest in education. So this is a good proactive interest.
- [06:59]
B
Right. Like they're doing it themselves.
- [07:01]
A
You know, like, I remember the last time I watched Jurassic park with my daughter, she kept throwing her hands up because she was like, dad, we know the T. Rex doesn't sound like that. Dad, where is his feathers? Like, we Know that dinosaurs are birds and they. Why are they not updating? And I said, well, you know, you know, like Godzilla, you know, things like that. And she's like, no, no, he at least updated. He has pink. I was like, okay, touche. I stand corrected. But it's. Once they've taken a vested interest, they will hold you to the fire. Because I remember going on, you know, I was in. I think I was in. Yeah, I was in Sunday school making arguments. And it didn't. It didn't. Sunday school didn't pan out very well for me because I kept. Every question was, well, where are the dinosaurs? Where were the dinosaurs? You know, and. But it's that. And then you gotta. You want to look and you want to research and all those things. So I think, I think that is the grassroots for a very successful. Because those kids are going to grow with it.
- [08:01]
B
Yeah. And that's. It's been crazy, like, over the last. I think I have some here. I do, I do, I do. Over the last, like, Like, I know we're talking about this. I was like, this isn't like it. Like, literally every week we get stuff like this. Every single week we get like, oh, yeah, this is.
- [08:16]
A
I was one of those kids. I was drawing whales and dinosaurs.
- [08:18]
B
Yeah. I mean, we're like. I keep. I got like 10 of them here because I get them. We get them all the time. But like parents and teachers, like, it's not just the kids, but the parents and teachers are engaging with it. Right. And so we get all these, like, letters, which is pretty awesome. And. And we had the opportunity to be on Mr. Beast last week. And, and so it's fun because, like, all the people I. We've been getting all of this influx of, of of DMS and Met and emails from. From over the weekend because they're like, oh, my. I finally saw what my kid's been telling me about, which is kind of cool.
- [08:50]
A
Yeah, I've been on this from Jump. Now, real quick, I. You have a fossil behind you, and that. Is that a whale or plesiosaur? What do we got?
- [08:56]
B
Nailed it. You nailed it. You nailed it. It's Nessie, right? It's a plesio. Yeah. So this is, this was from. This is from my house. It's real and it's there. It doesn't fit with everything. It won't fit on these other shelves. But I've got too much dinosaur stuff at home. And I got. I got feedback that not that new stuff isn't going to be at the house anymore.
- [09:19]
A
So. Yeah, it's like me with my, my fish collection. I had to get a separate garage just for my.
- [09:24]
B
Yeah, several places. So it's here. Yeah, but it's, you know, I was told it was creepy, but I think it's awesome.
- [09:30]
A
No, it's awesome. It is awesome. Very envious. Yeah. Because. Well, here's the thing that. Because I myself found myself being a kid too when this stuff. Because of course when I first heard about the mammoth, I was like, yeah, because they, they're related. We have a common ancestor not too far removed. So.
- [09:49]
B
Right.
- [09:49]
A
That, you know, makes sense. Same things with direwolf dodo a little different because the fun loving things just never got a fear for man and hungry sailors couldn't wait to meet him, you know, so we don't. But I was thinking when I was looking at all the stuff and I want to get into the de extinction stuff in a little bit, but one of the animals that I'm most excited about, but we don't have a common ancestor left is a giant sloth. I just feel like the world.
- [10:16]
B
So there is DNA. So things. There is DNA. Henrik Polnor, one of our advisors who work with about 17 universities around the world in addition to our lab. Right. And then we work with about 95 scientific advisors and Henrik's one of our advisors. He's got great coverage and in the Smithsonian, in the catacombs of the Smithsonian, I was there last year. And they've got great giant slot DNA. So a full genome with high coverage of the giant sloth can exist. Right. And there's enough samples that I think we can get enough genetic diversity that we, we can, you know, understand all the core fixed mutations that truly kind of drove what made giant sloths. Again, the issue isn't, I think building the genome and getting to the point that we can engineer sloth cells to get there.
- [11:11]
A
But how do you grow them?
- [11:14]
B
There you go, you got it. There's nothing from a surrogacy perspective. Right. And so we've got a 17 person team we talk about occasionally. We haven't shown a lot of progress on it, full disclosure, but we have a 17 person team working on artificial wombs that we've been ramping up because for us we had to build the end to end pipeline, which I'm sure we'll get into for to deliver on de extinction. But it's also leveraging surrogates. Right. Using closely relatives for surrogates.
- [11:43]
A
If you're going to do the woolly rhino, you would, you know, you would have a black rhino perhaps, or whatever, you know, something like that.
- [11:49]
B
So probably. So woolly rhinos were closest related to Sumatran rhinos, which are critically endangered. There's only about 80 left in the world. But you would gestate in a, a Southern white rhino because, you know, I mean, there's, there's a thousand of them in Texas. Right. Which is crazy.
- [12:06]
A
Yeah, that's rhino farms there. I know, it's awesome. Yeah.
- [12:09]
B
It's just crazy. And then, but, but what's interesting is so we about 17 people, 17 people working on artificial wombs. We have three artificial womb projects going on. We have an artificial avian project because we're working on the moa. Right. And so that you don't have to, so that you don't have to gestate larger surrogates that can then because we can use ostrich and emus, but to go even bigger for the moa, because the eggs are still bigger, we'd have to engineer larger surrogates to even hold the moa. Right, right.
- [12:40]
A
We'd almost have to go cross breeding, try to get. And, and you have to.
- [12:44]
B
Yeah, you have to. We just engineer it. Right. But then, but then we actually are engineering in artificial eggs constructs. So how do you grow birds of all different sizes and different species fully ex utero, fully outside of, outside of a gestational egg, number one. Number two, which gives us optionality. Right. Because then you could birth a, a bird that, you know, needs a larger egg and yolk system and then move it to a larger artificial system so that you can then supplement so, so that the ceregus could still give birth, but at that stage it's still just in that kind of yolk sac and it hasn't fully grown. So we have that project going on, which is pretty cool. And then we have 2 million artificial womb projects, including a placental mammal. We're starting obviously with, you know, you know, mice and then growing up that, I mean, we're having to build a full placental interface system so that it actually has a place to cleave into. And, and so we have to build a synthetic uterine wall and there's about nine different core placental types. I just thought everything when I started this was like everything just grew in a bag the same way it does.
- [13:54]
A
You think test tube baby or, you know, just a little glass jar with some water in it with a call.
- [14:01]
B
It and you call it. It's very, very different. I, I, I think that like de extinction to me is no Longer science fiction. And we're scaling up the edit so we can do more and more, which is interesting. And we're scaling at a really fast clip compared to what we even projected, which is great. The artificial womb stuff still feels a little science fictiony to me. But I think in the next two years we, if, if, if we continue the, the current course and speed while we make a giant sloth or a mammoth through artificial wombs. In the short term, I think that we'll start showing demonstrable progress of birthing healthy animals fully ex utero and then we'll scale those systems from there.
- [14:39]
A
So, so if you like the woolly mouse, you get that figured out, we just birth. In theory, you increase the size of everything and you could potentially grow a woolly mammoth or.
- [14:52]
B
That's our, that's our, that's our vision. Right. So I will tell you, giant sloths are off the table today. But you know, long term that species. And the stellar sea cow, which is sick seller. See. So man, I mean, imagine a manatee the size of a whale and that was the stellar seekout and we as humanity like killed it like within like 50 years of meeting it or 30 years.
- [15:17]
A
Because what we got left, we got, we got manatees and we got dugongs and. But the one. Yeah, dugongs, right. And they're vastly different because dugongs have that crazy whale tail.
- [15:27]
B
Did you see, have you seen the dude. They have one at, in, in SeaWorld Abu Dhabi. I just saw one. I've never seen one.
- [15:34]
A
Oh no, I've seen them. I, I want. It's one of the planet. One of David Attenborough special that went into the. Those giant grass.
- [15:43]
B
I've never seen one. I've never seen one. In real life, no.
- [15:46]
A
In real life, no. Unfortunately, the one time I was in that area is wrestling is always inland. It's never, you know, the only time I ever got lucky was we went. When I went to Africa in the Cape and a buddy of mine who I wrestled with, who grew up there, he was like, hey, I know a guy that will can take you to go swim and see great whites if you, if you got the balls for it. And I was like, yeah, I'm in. So I mean that was. And that is about it. Once you've done that, there's really nothing to really be afraid. I mean, afraid of.
- [16:19]
B
Yeah. Yeah, you're, you're done. Yeah, that you definitely, you don't know.
- [16:22]
A
What life is until something that is. And there was a big female. She was About. I want to say she was about 17ft, 16 to 17ft. I couldn't see her until she was right here.
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B
Oh, my gosh.
- [16:37]
A
It was like. I was just like looking in the water. I'm looking. You're underwater, you're breathing underwater. You're looking, you're looking, looking. And then all of a sudden you feel a presence. And you can't see it, but you know something's there. I don't think my eyes ever got wider. And then all of a sudden, just right by the cage, the black eyes right there. And my reaction is there still tease me about. It is. I just was like, hey, stop it. Just reached up, petted. I know. And they're like, don't touch the. I was like, we're underwater. I can't hear you. But I was just my reaction. If you could just get back a foot, that would be really cool. But once you experience that. But you see like the raw power of nature, it is because.
- [17:19]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [17:20]
A
I mean, I bench, you know, 500 pounds. I wouldn't have last a second, like, if their mind was made up when you see that power. But then the whole time I was there, I was looking for Megalodon teeth, you know. Yeah. And I've got. My buddy found me one, a big giant. I got a big fossil. This only fossil I have is of a Megalodon tooth. But then again. And then you get into all the things we don't still know everything that's out there.
- [17:42]
B
Also, I'll send you a mammoth tooth.
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A
Oh, I'll take it. Oh, that would be awesome.
- [17:47]
B
You love. I got you. I have Megalov, Megalodon tutu. And what's interesting is, is one of which. Which this kind of shows you where society is right now. One of the number one requests we get, which we're not working on is Megalodon. I was like, why on earth would.
- [18:04]
A
You want a super predator?
- [18:05]
B
You want that, that in the ocean? The ocean is amazing and incredible and beautiful, but it's terrifying too. And it's like raw power. Right. Like, we have no idea what's down there.
- [18:15]
A
Yeah. We explored, what, less than 20% of the ocean or something. Some crazy moon than we do the ocean.
- [18:21]
B
Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. I think that. I think that you. I think you're given being generous. I think it's like four. It's something.
- [18:27]
A
Yeah. I think I might have inflated the numbers here. And just recently because always researching stuff and just recently in a diving expedition where they were trying to tag great whites and they were at a little deeper depth in the cages trying to get. Trying to get see more natural behavior. Lower poles away from the boat. And a large shark with a very different fin pattern, very different movement showed up, investigated, took off, was the same size as the great whites. Other great whites kind of gave it a wide path and then disappeared. So that everyone was like, was that Megalodon? Was that. What was that a variant species? Like, we're just finding out, you know, that there could be a different species of mako shark in San Francisco. The. The black one versus the. So we still don't know. I think the one place we should probably leave alone, with the exception of a super awesome. Because no one has. I don't think everyone's ever been mauled by a manatee. You've had water slapped at you, you know. But I think that I've seen that a few times.
- [19:26]
B
I think out like, it's like, what? Not like you can't be afraid. It'd be amazing, right? And so I think that. I think. But it goes in that same category with giant slots like we got to get. Once we get artificial wombs done, it's just, it's just a function of time, right? Like anything that we see in biology we can replicate with engineering as long as. Especially with. With access to compute AI. It's just a matter of time, right? So we're studying like all of the chemical queuing that occurs in every day of pregnancy of these different species. So we're taking all that and just understanding that and feeding it into the system. And that's. That's a very similar way that we were able to develop the primordial germ cells cocktail or media condition that we needed to grow pigeon primordial germ cells. Because you've got to do a little bit different process with avian species versus mammalian species. You can't do that cloning step because you can't access the embryo, right? So we actually have to edit the precursors to egg and sperm, put them in sterile, genetically modified chickens and have them mate to produce dodo. It's kind of crazy and insane. But. But just the, the knowledge gap from going from.
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A
So they're brooding chickens.
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B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
You can't, you can't breed your prize jumping mare. So you, you take eight of her embryos and fermila and then you take them out and you put them in broodmares and then you end up with.
- [20:54]
B
It's the same process, only instead of moving that full embryo, you're moving the egg and then you're just first herb too and then having them mate. Right. And so it's pretty cool. But what's crazy, and this is like the, this is why I'm very confident on the artificial womb stuff is that we looked at the media culture conditions of what they achieved with pit with chickens about 25 years ago. 20 years ago. And then it took 18 years for, for experts and scientists to get the second species, which was geese. But now using AI and using a lot of the tools that we developed, we then did that in 18 months. And so now, you know, that's where I think the power with all of these sensor technologies coupled with AI and software is, is we will be. The rate of, of, of discovery is just going to exponentially increase. And so things that I'll tell you today aren't possible or aren't currently possible in five years, we're like, yeah, that was dumb that I said that.
- [21:52]
A
Science is funny that way. It's like lag, lag, lang, boom. Because I'm thinking now when you mentioned chickens, I remember there was a study or an attempt. They thought that during the embryo development process that the link between dinosaurs and birds, there is a spot there where the birds have the tail and they're very dinosaur esque looking and they thought they could reverse the process to stop there. And they thought eventually they could hatch a chicken's ancestor out which would have looked like, you know, one of those little bastards from Jurassic park that was jumping all around.
- [22:30]
B
But yeah, those little copies. Right. So what I'll tell you is from a developmental biology perspective, we can use protein coated beads and different forms of electrolysis to induce, induce different developmental things and stop developmental pathways like limb development into, into, you know, from wing into limb. So, so that is, that is true and ironically the chicken is people are like, oh well, moas look a lot like dinosaurs. But reality is that chickens are about genetically the same as.
- [23:12]
A
Yeah, they're, well they, they're about as.
- [23:14]
B
Close to dinosaurs as every other birds are dinosaurs. Yeah, yeah.
- [23:18]
A
There's no distinction.
- [23:20]
B
So one of the things that we're constantly learning and sometimes this gets. Because I, because I don't. Look, I don't come from. I was a software guy, right. Like I built a bunch of software companies and then I got passionate about this and I know how to build teams and much smarter women.
- [23:35]
A
Sequencing.
- [23:36]
B
Yeah, exactly right. And so like my view was I could build teams to go figure out this stuff. You know, the biggest experts in the world are out there. They just need the Right. Focus and funding behind it. And so I still, I'm still, you know, the phylogenetic tree and how we think about the tree of life, I still think is like fundamentally dumb. And because I think everything we find, once you start really looking genetics, everything's closer, related and like all these like things that we're told, right? Like there was a study that just came out about chimpanzees, you know, how we were told like, oh, we're 99.8999, but then there's a study that just came out that said that she's closer to 80%, which is massively different.
- [24:15]
A
Huge difference because.
- [24:18]
B
But we've been all trained to say that. But what's interesting is because there's all this DNA in these non protein co. In these regions that people used to call junk DNA and people don't think of as valuable. Turns out some of these parts are pretty valuable, right? And we're just starting to unpack them and they make vastly differences, you know, in the species. And so I still, like, I'm going to say this and this is not a scientific thing. This is not a colossal position. This is just my position. When you look at kind of like the, the dinosaur like clade in the evolutionary thing, what's interesting is you've got, you know, two core body plans, right? You've got something that resembles like the Velociraptor, the copies, the T. Rexes, that's your theropods, right, which, you know, look very avian in their movement style, their.
- [25:09]
A
Hips, bones and skeletal structures in their structures.
- [25:14]
B
And what's interesting is Kenneth Lakavara, who's one of the top paleontologists in the world, he's on our advisory board. He discovered Dreadnought. It's the biggest dinosaur ever discovered. And, and they did a study where they put these, you know, fake prosthetic tails on birds and put them on treadmills and then they start moving like dinosaurs. So. So I do believe that dinosaurs are birds, to your point. I will say though, the archosaur, which is at the base of the tree, of the current tree, the way. Because it's. The tree is constantly getting changed, right?
- [25:44]
A
And every time you have a new discovery, the rule, I mean, every time.
- [25:47]
B
Yeah, just change the shit, right? Like, you know, I had a, I had a 5 fight people when we were, when we launched the Direl was because people, people incorrectly believed that direls were closer to jackals than wolves because there was a point in time where there wasn't enough data. And the data they had suggested that. So at the time that was true. That was.
- [26:07]
A
Well, they all have a common ancestor, the canine, so it's not. But that doesn't mean it was our truth.
- [26:12]
B
Yeah, like, at the time, that was the data we had, so that was our truth. But then when you get more data, you can revise your thinking. Right?
- [26:18]
A
Yeah, because.
- [26:21]
B
Oh, go ahead. Sorry.
- [26:22]
A
No, I was going to say, for a long time it was. Mammals don't lay eggs and they do milk. And then the platypus showed up and they're like, oh, it's a freak. And then the echidna showed up. Like, what? Everything. You think. But that's the. I'm glad we're getting one of the things. And I don't want to talk about politics, but the nicest thing about what you guys were doing was it changed the conversations. People started talking about something positive, something cool. And then you had what I think is one of, you know, forget folklore. But there's. The wolf is just. It's a. It's a legendary animal. It's in every culture. You know, one of the greatest childhood stories of all time. You know, there's two of them. Well, there's. No. There's three of them. There's Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf, then there's the Boy who Cried wolf, and then there's the Three Little Pigs who cry. I'm probably. I'm probably forgetting another one, but I'm saying it has been. Historically, the wolves have been a big part of human culture and history and folklore. So to. To reproduce one, like, whoever made that call, I think that was genius, because I don't think. And I would be going crazy to see a dodo, you know? Absolutely. I just don't. The American public. Oh, it's a pigeon, you know. Oh, it's a. You know, it's a. It's a penguin that doesn't swim good, you know, or whatever, but it's like, wow, is a wolf. And just the timing and. And, you know, but that's the mat.
- [27:50]
B
That's why, like, look, I built. I've been fortunate enough to work with smart people, build a handful of pretty cool companies over the years and sell them. But, like, that's the magic of this, right? Like, on our hardest days here that are pretty shitty, it's still pretty awesome, right? Because, like, we're working on these things that I think are generationally important, and I think that. That, you know, like, the connection that you have to a wolf, someone else has to, like an ancient Bison species. Right. And so in that. And that's so amazing. Right. And what I found, you mentioned politics, is we have had tremendous success on the left and the right with this. Because on the left, people are like, oh, the applications of conservation are. We need to be slow and thoughtful and. But it's interesting. And we are losing a fight against species. So that's interesting. And then we have some very far. Right. That are like, yeah, it sounds like Jurassic Park. And it's just, thank God people are doing cool shit. Right? So it's. So what's interesting is that in both sides of the aisle that we've been fortunate enough to talk to is people agree that a world without biodiversity is bad.
- [28:58]
A
Yeah.
- [28:58]
B
And so, like, it seems to be a common thing. Right. Regardless, you know, even if you talk to, like, top hunters, that will tell you there's a value in putting that. That. That it will help animals. You put a value on the animal. Right. I'm not a hunter, but there are.
- [29:11]
A
People that believe that are serious. Conserve. They want conservations. Yes, absolutely. Same thing. You know, in Boston, the guys from Wicked Tuna, I went out with them. They have a seal population explosion because they regulate the water so good. They regulate the fishing so good. The seals are back and to the point, and. And the seals are protected, so they can't do anything. So the seal has become, like, an annoying pest. Yeah, I saw him. I saw elephant seals just sitting on the poor. Like, hey, you got anything? Like, they're like seagulls move. I was like, they don't. He's. Y'. All. You. You just. I was just staring at him and I'm like. And he just looks like, yeah. Ocean rats, they're everywhere. Can't do any. You know, and they're. They just follow the sea boats, like, what are you gonna do? You fishing today, bro.
- [29:58]
B
But it's crazy, though. It's like. Because I do think that it is something that everyone's pretty, like, stoked about. Like, you know, the. The You. It's very rare that you meet someone that's like, I just hate animals. And so we're not for them, for everybody else.
- [30:11]
A
Well, it. But I would push back. Like, this will carry over to help human beings as a whole. The more you learn about how DNA works and how you can. I mean, you can find ways to look for certain ways. And when it comes to genetic disorders, genetic diseases, and being able to be able to pull this and pull. There's a lot of things. It's bigger than just creating a cool wolf I mean it's.
- [30:35]
B
I agree, I totally agree. Because like if you look at, if you take away de extinction and you take away species preservation and you look at the core pipeline of technologies of being able to edit DNA, read DNA, write DNA, do comparative genomics in DNA culture conditions that grow the cells, edit the cells, clone the cells, that pipeline. Working on the application of our technology to humans is 100 times easier than what we are doing, right? Because we're working with shit that's like thousands to millions of years old and we're having to completely reassemble it. When you're working in model species like mice or pigs, non human primates or humans, like we understand so much about it because that's what 99% of what the scientific community studies.
- [31:23]
A
Right. And I was going to say it must, it's a lot easier because you see it. Well, as far as cloning goes, my daughter is, she jumps, she's a jumper. But we, where we live, they have a giant polo club, right? And I was looking at all the polo horses and like, wow, all these horses look pretty much the same. It goes, we clone them. We don't, we don't breed anymore. We clone, we have a prize horse and we just clone her and we'll have 12 different versions of her. And like that's how we do it now. They just clone their horses. And I knew there was the story in, I can't remember. It's in the, it might be Abu Dhabi or could have been Saudi Arabia with that prize giant black camel, that monster Campbell that died. It was worth the guy freaked out and he got the, the Japanese doctor to come over and clone it and now he's got, now he's got a herd of him. And so when it is it just for people who are listening to this and trying to figure out when something has or common ancestors that's present today in our ecosystem and has grown with us time wise, it's a lot easier to work with those cells. Opposed to Nessie behind you.
- [32:28]
B
Exactly.
- [32:29]
A
Right.
- [32:29]
B
Well, there's probably no DNA.
- [32:30]
A
No, probably not. But I'm just saying in terms of extraction and working with 100, like, like.
- [32:35]
B
The direwolf, like the miracle of science with the direwolf is that we took a 73,000-year-old skull and then we took a 12,000-year-old tooth. We did comparative genomics, ancient DNA, complete reassembly, got 13 or 14 full reads of the full genome, which is incredible for that old DNA. And then we literally found the fixed Mutations that made a direwolf and direwolf and compared it to that, the gray wolf, and then engineered them. That's magic, right? And so cloning, so we did buy a company called Viagen, which is the number one dog, cow, sorry dog, cat and horse, ironic cloning company of the world. So they do a lot of work in the polo and other communities. And so we bought them, right? They're number one in the world. We bought them late last year. And in part of that was because to your point about working with life on Earth, we will be able like 17 of the 18 species that have ever been cloned, including endangered species like the black footed ferret, Saborsky's horse and others. They were done by Biogen. Right. And so what's great about cloning is that we've gotten so good at it. We've come a long way since Dolly, that cloning endangered species, cloning horses, cloning dogs is something that we can do all day and it's significantly easier than rebuilding extinct species, right. So for us, we can even engineer in genetic diversity to a clone. So when you think about these low population genetic diverse species with bottleneck, like the Northern White rhino, where there's two, we can make 100 northern white rhinos, right. Which is incredible.
- [34:12]
A
Now, okay, so let's talk, let's get into these, these dire wolves. Now they were, you had three, right? You had two boys and a girl, correct?
- [34:19]
B
I'm as Re Remus and Khaleesi.
- [34:22]
A
Yeah. Okay. They're. How old are they now?
- [34:26]
B
So they were born in October of last year, so I guess a year and a half now.
- [34:30]
A
Are you. When you're obviously behavior, there's, you know, there's instinct and then there's top behavior and social animals like wolves, a lot of stuff, they're, you know, they, they're engineered with. But also successful packs tend to be, you know, they breed successful wolves and. Yeah, yeah. So are you noticing any behavior differences in terms of.
- [34:53]
B
There's a, There is a there. So it's a great question. And there was this turning point where, you know, because like they started off very hand reared, right. Because these are the most genetically modified animals on the planet. The only animals ever to be engineered with lost extinct genes. Right. So there's a lot of reasons why we want to do everything correctly. Right. And so incubators, everything, the whole nine yards. So like the crazy security, crazy labs, all the stuff that went into it. But at the end of the day, they're animals and we're certified By American Humane. We want to be, you know, thoughtful about animal welfare and what they're and what their life plan is. And so I bottle fed Ryan was Remus, like, which crazy. And Ramus was the bigger of the two. And like, I was super close to him. And, and what's interesting was the, the. Not the last time I saw them, but the last time I was right around launch, you know, I was in the ecological preserve with them. And this goes to your question. And they are. For a while, they were running up to me and licking me. And you could pet them. They're like big dogs, right. They scary, but big dogs. Right. And what's interesting is now, you know, they're £120. They're huge. They're super. They're. You can literally watch the muscle even over their thick coat. Like, you can just see it like ripple, which is incredible. But what's crazy is the last time, and this is right around lunch, I was in the preserve with them. You know, they were skittish. They were looking at me, their eyes were. Their heads were down, eyeing me. Right. They were starting to make kills on their own, even though we didn't train them to do that. Right. Of rabbits and squirrels and others on the preserve. And so what was crazy. And we'd started introducing socialized carcass feeding of like, how they work together and how they figure out their own dynamic. Remus is now the alpha. The smaller Remus ended up being the alpha and more aggressive and Ramos, the bigger one, is now more. Is less dominant than Remus. And what's interesting though is like, I remember there's a. I like, like my herald stand up. I remember the exact moment I was in the preserve and I was like, I don't know if this is safe. Like, this was safe. And I had people with me from our team, but I was like. But I was like, they're. We are. We are now entering a turning point where they are behaving more and more like wolves, which is. Which is great. That is wonderful from their life plan perspective. But the, the. The little. Or the, the. The. Maybe not so little cuddly puppies that they were that day. Those days are gone. And I remember thinking, I'm never going to touch these things again. Right.
- [37:28]
A
Smart.
- [37:28]
B
Because I was so close. Yeah, but I was so close to them and, but that was the moment when they were skittish and they were standing up their eye to me. I was like, yeah, we're like, our relationship has changed.
- [37:39]
A
Well, because they're. When they're younger, they need you, they fear you a little bit. And then one day mother Nature kicks in, you realize I'm bigger.
- [37:47]
B
And adolescents kick those, those hormones kick in and they're like, yeah, we're like, we're wolves here now I get it.
- [37:54]
A
As far as obviously with having. And they're all, they're. Well, I guess is the, is there, is it their sister? Genetically?
- [38:05]
B
Yeah, well, technically it's their sister. It's not a clone and she's female and it came from a different cell line. So it's a different cell line.
- [38:14]
A
So you could, in theory, if you need, if you want, you could start breeding dire wolves with what you have right now potentially if that route we.
- [38:23]
B
Are, we are engineering because part of, so part of the beauty of like the way that we think about this because sometimes people. And once again, what's so great about this kind of to your child and to your childhood and your child about dinosaurs is that it creates kind of so many opportunities for conversation because people be like, well they're all just clones so you can't, they can't breed. And I was like, well, that's actually not true because we can layer in two things. We can one, engineer in more genetic diversity. But like right now we have a project going on for more dire wolves and what we've done is we've gone and we've done a full genome genomic sequence of another, I think 20 or 30 wolves from different like recovery and wolf rescue places. And we, we actually have DNA that is very, very different from genetic diversity of the existing wolves. And so now what we're doing is we're engineering in the same direwolf edit onto a new wolf platform which is the same as the, it's a gray wolf but it has different baked in genetic diversity so that we can engineer in the, and create the synthetic herd that has a lot of genetic diversity in it. Right? Because there's no, there's not a lot of genetic diversity in the current herd. Right. Or in the current pack. So, so that's something that, that's pretty cool about this. And so we are in the process of making more dire wolves that will go into the pack.
- [39:39]
A
Now long term, would we potentially see dire wolves in our zoos? So, or is it going to be conservative conservation?
- [39:51]
B
It's a great question and sometimes when I give this answer, people think I'm anti zoos, which is just not the case. I think zoos do a lot for us. They, they, there's all these really interesting studies that show that if you, if your kids engage with zoos, I'm talking about like goods, like not Tiger King, like San Diego Zoo. Right?
- [40:08]
A
Yeah, yeah. Not all, but no, some animals are just not meant to be in zoos. And I'm just. My thing is a direwolf might fit that category. Tiger, a killer whale. Like there's certain, especially when it comes to predators. I just feel, feel like their whole life is wandering.
- [40:23]
B
Exactly, exactly. And so I think that, and so for us, you know, we're not, I'm not anti zoo but I think realistically our vision is long term rewilding of these species. But that is a very long process which includes indigenous people groups, private landowners, governments on all these pieces. Mauritius, you know, working with the government of Mauritius for the dodo, working Tasmanian government for the thylacine. We're working with the Alaskan government and several other states around, around mammoths and some of the other species. But what's interesting though is you know I do see a world where people can see and view these incredible animals back in a natural or semi natural habitat. Right.
- [41:03]
A
And so the safaris where you drive your car through the lions, like look.
- [41:07]
B
At like, like Krueger National Park's a great example. Right. And so people are like well if is that the wild that people can visit them? I was like well, Krueger National Park, 6 million hectare. Is that wild? What is truly defined as wild anymore? So less, more so like going through your neighborhood zoo in more like those types of environments. But I do think there's a hunger for kids and parents in education and people of our age, they just love this. Right. And so finding ways that we can put the science on display and not the animals on display, allow people to have a connection with them. We're still working through those models, but we have ideas and part of that is these ecological preserves where people. But back where they're supposed to be, right? Like you know, not, not putting like, you know, not putting like dire wolves in like you know like northern France.
- [42:05]
A
Right? Yeah. Or just they're just dump them off in the sunny California in the mountains for the week.
- [42:10]
B
Yeah, yeah, they're in Los Angeles. They're fine.
- [42:12]
A
Yeah, they're fine. Yeah. You know the sizing, the Tasmanian tiger, tiger, wolf or whatever the nicknames were, that to me is just a unique, awesome looking animal.
- [42:24]
B
It's awesome. It is the cool like I don't have any favorites here because I had species leads that would like beat me because these, our teams put their lives in these projects Right, Yeah, but, but the, the, the, the Tasmanian tiger, Tasmanian wolf, thylacine, tassie, whatever you want to call it, it's got a lot of names. It's epic. I mean, it's like, it's a wall. It's a marsupial that looks like a wolf. From a convergent evolution perspective. Like, if I put two skulls, a wolf skull and a thylacine skull on the table, there's only one, one true difference that like, you wouldn't even notice. You'd have to know to look for it. Like, and it's crazy, right? And it's striped like a zebra, but then it's got a pouch.
- [43:06]
A
Like it's an incredible jaw.
- [43:09]
B
Yeah. It's got 150°.
- [43:11]
A
Like you're not getting. So that means it's snatching up while it's full run. So the little marsupials, only he's not even stopping. He's just snatching.
- [43:18]
B
No, no, no. Those things are.
- [43:20]
A
They.
- [43:20]
B
They are. They. They are. And what's interesting. And I've fallen for this trap, right. You know, it's. I made. I. I talked about Nessie earlier. Right. But like, you know, when I. There is convincing levels of people and stories and interests that think they're still out there. That think they're still out there.
- [43:38]
A
Yeah.
- [43:38]
B
I will tell you, you know, because like, before we launch a species, even though I don't know, I try to go read. Like, I'm like, who's the top experts? How do we get the them involved? Who's. What are the right books and movies and podcasts and every. And I go deep on it.
- [43:52]
A
Right.
- [43:53]
B
And so I do that for every species. I just think it's super important if we're going to take on the stewardship of trying to return it. Right. I think it's like I have to be one of the smartest people on moas or we shouldn't work on them. Right, Exactly. And so I did style scene and I'll tell you, I fell down that rabbit hole. I went deep. I was like, I was talking like night. I still do talk. There's a guy named Ian. He's amazing. If he hears this, he's like 9, 84 years old in. In a part of Tasmania and he is convinced he knows exactly where they are. And I'm like texting Andrew Pask, who's our thylacine lead and runs Colossal Australia, our chief biology officer. He's been working on the thylacy for 15 years before we showed up. And I'm like, I'm pretty convinced they're still out there. Like, we should go get in here. And he's like, ben, don't go down this. But it's like Bigfoot, right? It's like. Or sa you.
- [44:38]
A
Well, we can't genetically. We can't genetically engineer a Bigfoot because we don't have any fossils yet. Yet. I'll be polite. Yeah, I'll be polite.
- [44:46]
B
Yeah. But you could go, well, there are fossils of giant Epithecus.
- [44:50]
A
Giant episodes. Yes, yes, yes, we could do that.
- [44:54]
B
So I don't know how good the DNA is it, but, yeah, I think you could do all kinds of stuff. But what's interesting is, like, there are people that are convincing and you just see the blurred photos and the blurred videos.
- [45:06]
A
I've seen them.
- [45:07]
B
I. I fell down that rabbit hole where I felt like a hundred percent, they still exist. And Andrew's like, ben, I've been dealing with this for 15 years. This is my life's work. Trust me, I've been to every nook and cranny of Tasmania. They ain't there. So I don't think they're there. I'm, you know, sadly. But, you know, I think we'll always.
- [45:28]
A
Argue when I would. Because I saw one video where a guy was showing. I think it was jumping through a. Like a. It like scurried and jumped on a hill, I think. Yeah, yeah. And that was the one that had me like, Interesting.
- [45:39]
B
Yeah.
- [45:40]
A
And. But I also. Yeah, yeah. I think it being a super predator and the dingo kind of fill in its void in on the Australia side of things. I think we would see more evidence because with they. From what I, from what I read, they, they didn't even. The way they eat is. It's very similar to like a hyena. Like, they don't. Yeah, they're like a cat or a wolf. Same thing, a wild dog. They eat you while you're running. They just start eating and eventually you just pass out. So I think we would still see the remains, the scattered remains, a lot of it.
- [46:20]
B
I agree. I, I go that route. I, I will say I spoke to someone. I spoke to a researcher who does a lot of work on Western Papua New guinea, because there was a. There what now? From an evolutionary distance, I think it's like it could be 10, I can't remember. It's either 10 or 30,000 years. But whenever the land bridge split between Papua Northern Australia and Papua New guinea, there was a thylacine population in Papua New guinea. And, and so on the Western side in the mountain range where it's very dangerous and there's like, still like live cannibalism, but it's the part where the singing dogs haven't got, are not accessible. There are rumors and I saw data that suggested that there was a pelt sample from the 1980s. That's pretty convincing. Yeah, I don't, I don't think it's a zebra diker. I, I, I think that there could have been a population that existed there and it is remote enough like they found. We funded a project where we found, rediscovered Sir Attenborough's long beak echidna. We funded that project and we found it with camera traps and it is in the same location. I don't know because like you said, even there are camera traps, there is some stuff, you know, if there's, if there's a fractional percentage chance that there's any thylacines, which would be evolutionary different than thylacines of Tasmania that went extinct.
- [47:53]
A
Yeah, that would be different. Yeah, they might have a different pelt color.
- [47:56]
B
That would be exactly, that would be the only. And I would give it a sub 1% chance.
- [48:02]
A
Sub one, that's not very high.
- [48:04]
B
No, I mean, I'd still. Look, I'm, I would look, I'll be.
- [48:07]
A
Honest with you, I would follow it.
- [48:08]
B
Like, I mean, I'll say 1% all day long.
- [48:11]
A
Listen, I watch Oak island without fail. I know it, we know it, it's not there, but I don't care. It's not the destination. I don't know, a bunch of dudes getting together, digging stuff up, finding old stuff, talking about it. That's the treasure, you know, it's not the gold Spanish coins at the bottom. And that's, and that's why I love that show so much because it's like, it's the, and you know what if they do hit a home run, if something happens, great. But at least the experience, the, of trying and you're learning so much. We're getting so many little pieces of history and who was traveling like now, you know, we realize now that the, the knights actually made it over there and it was like royal. I mean, it was like a lot of things you didn't know.
- [48:52]
B
I, I agree. You learn so much from the journey, right. And so, like, look, I'm like, I'm super involved in the Explorers Club. And so, you know, I've thought about doing. It's quite a commitment. One of my friends did a lead an expedition off the coast of Papua New guinea looking for with Avi Loeb looking for. And I got to help put the expedition together. Looking for an interstellar object which Avi believe was also alien. And at the bottom of the ocean that explode based on the trajectory and speed and where it broke into part of the atmosphere that it had to be an interstellar object that entered our atmosphere and exploded. Exploded in. In the scatter pattern. They knew exactly where to go look for it. And they actually found some pretty cool pieces. And I thought about dovetailing that into an expedition. But that was like it's just a lot of time. And I just couldn't get away for that long. You know, it's a month long time.
- [49:50]
A
Yeah. That is something that I would. Before my time on this planet's up. I. I want to say I did an expedition. I don't care what it's for.
- [49:56]
B
The last one we should do, I'll find like. Like you should come to the Explorers Club.
- [50:01]
A
Oh, that'd be awesome.
- [50:03]
B
And in New York. It's sick. It's amazing. We do big. Our annual Explorers Club annual dinner. It's awesome. You and you just meet the most interesting people in the world doing the most interesting things in the world and we'll just pair you up with someone. You'll go on expedition. I can do it.
- [50:18]
A
That's gonna be awesome. I got a team for that, right? We got a team for that. If not, I'll figure it out because you gotta come. Yeah. And like I said, my one. My daughter for a little while before she got serious in the horses, she wanted to go fossil digging in Montana. And so we were trying to do that. When we were out there at the site, the frost had kicked in. So dig up the ground. But I was like, don't worry. The T. Rex ain't going anywhere. Like we'll find. It'll be. Trust me.
- [50:42]
B
Trust me. It will be there. And. And well look, you said this earlier but it's true. Like an expedition, we like to say at the explorers of the expedition is just an adventure with purpose. Right?
- [50:52]
A
Yeah. Whatever happens, happens. I did have a dig once when I was 11 years old. Me and my buddy in Southern California. Pasadena, California. Up in the hills in his. In his backyard. And we started digging. We were digging a fort. We were trying to make a low level fort for. Because we used to play guns and stuff. You said the automatic. You know, you just play guns with your buddies and ride bikes and we're trying to build a fort. But we kept getting ready. So we wanted to dig a fort and make a cover so they wouldn't see us. You know, we jump out and get. So we're digging, digging, and lo and behold we start finding these giant clams, these prehistoric clams. And we were like, oh, we're rich. Oh my God. We found in la. It was, it was all these giant clams millions of years old when California was underwater. And it was, we found, I think we must have found 50 of them. And we were talking about where we're gonna divide it up and what were we gonna do with it. And his mom called the museum and says, we'll be glad to take you, but they're everywhere. And I remember being just so defeated, right?
- [51:51]
B
Yeah.
- [51:52]
A
And I was like, I. I don't even remember what the hell happened to them, but I just remember I had a box of, of fossilized clams and they were good size and I was like, man, I'm just going to take this to the museum and get the biggest check ever and I'm gonna be an explorer. Like, you know, I was really excited about it.
- [52:08]
B
That's like what you said earlier about like, you know, the ocean stuff that we just don't, we just don't know. We don't know because what's crazy is like I forgot the number and I'm going to talk totally screwed up and someone's gonna say in the comments, but like, ultimately there were like, you know, I think we found like 12 or 13 or, or something in that. In that in the teens number of like quote unquote full ish. Because we don't have full really much of anything but full ish T. Rexes. But if you go look at how many T. Rexes probably existed, it's like millions or billions. An insane number in. We got like 20 and they're not even 100% right. And so what's crazy to me is like we have no in like look at sharks and stuff. They're like body plans that are made of cartilage that are just gone.
- [52:52]
A
Yeah. All you get with them is teeth. That's it.
- [52:54]
B
If you're lucky, like we've got stuff like. So who knows like all these times, like when people like I went down this dragon phase, you know, like, I think it was like after, like Rogan went like, like Dragon Believer, I went down, I went down this thing. And what's interesting is like you have them in all these cultures. They're in the zodiac. There's no other thing. But what's crazy is that like, you know, you know, we. There are so many things that we just don't understand. And I think that's the mystery and magic.
- [53:24]
A
Well, here's the thing about dragons because I did a little research about this too. So we dumbed down modern man. Dumbed down what dragon was. The word dinosaur is not that old. So dragon is what dinosaurs were referred to in early history. So all the fossils, they called them dragons because they look, you know, they sign a pterodactyl, they find a T. Rex. What does it look like? It looks like a fire breathing monster. So they were dragons and then lo and behold, the word dinosaur is invented. And then the two, unfortunately for dragons, they ended up on this floor fantasy realm road that they can't get out of, you know, and, and then dinosaurs went on to be. But if you think about it, calling a dinosaur a dragon probably would have been a little cooler. But like, you know, fantasy wise, the dragons that we see on TV physically just couldn't have existed. That means they would have to have six appendages. Wings are so it can't, you know, and there's no six. I don't see six.
- [54:27]
B
No body plant. Yeah, I, I had this conversation with George R. Martin. He, he's the investor at us we went to him during the darw. I, I was sitting with one of our investors, Peter Jackson and I showed him the D pal and he goes, have you shown this to George Rs like I, like, like, like, you know, like I was like, I don't know George R. Like sure, he's just, I, yeah, yeah, he did like hardcore name drop and on his couch and he's like, he's like well let's just text him. We text him, put us together. And what's funny is like in the experience working with, with George has been incredible. Like he's so creative and when I showed him I said, I asked Peter set up the call, I set up the call and he said, and I said look, I just want to share my screen with you. Like you don't know me. Peter introduces I just have. We tell them what we're showing. We just got on the phone, I showed him and I showed him the dials. He just teared up and he goes is that what I think it is? And I said yes. And we just like. And we started building a friendship and whatnot and end up investing in the business getting him.
- [55:27]
A
But you understand that what you've done has never been done before.
- [55:30]
B
No, no, no, trust me, there's going.
- [55:32]
A
To be a history book somewhere in a sixth grade Biology class with the. Probably the worst photo of you they could ever possibly have.
- [55:40]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [55:41]
A
You know, like, that's. You made. That's immortality. Like, I don't. It's one of those things where, like, you, Everyone, whatever your accomplishment is in life, you don't. When you're in it, it's very hard to stop and smell the roses or in it. But the fact that, like, people were cutting up dead things and sewing them together and filling them. Electricity, you know, like, that's what that was. The first cloning. I'll just make, you know, Frankenstein and how far it's coming. But to be the one. And you didn't bring back no disrespect, like an axolotl, you know what I'm saying? Or something very structurally simple. And you brought back a direwolf, like. Yeah. I mean, that, I would say would have been more crazier than that if you brought back the cave bear.
- [56:30]
B
Yeah.
- [56:30]
A
Which I don't think is up there with Megalodon. I don't think any of us want to see a 4.
- [56:37]
B
Crazy. But the short face bears, the worse.
- [56:40]
A
Yeah.
- [56:40]
B
Those ones, 17ft.
- [56:42]
A
Yeah. They supposedly are running around in Siberia still. That expedition, I'm not going on because I don't do.
- [56:47]
B
Well, I don't believe it either because.
- [56:51]
A
I don't think there'd be any. There wouldn't be any Soviets in that area or so. Russians.
- [56:55]
B
Sorry. No, look, the weight of what we do definitely sits with me, but like, I say this, it's like I really believe we're just getting started. Like. Like, Like I. Where we're going in. Like what? Like. Like I get this unfair seat and unfair vantage point of the incredible scientists. And so, like, I know, like, the next species. I know these things, and I get to see it. And I have to sit with that. And, you know, sometimes you have to wait for gestation, which is annoying, but it's just life. But it's just. It is. It is very cool. Right. Like, I will say, like, I don't take any of this for granted. It's. You know, I was very lucky to work in technology and software and defense and a couple categories for a while, and that has afforded me the ability to do this. But this is the hardest thing I've ever done. It's the hardest I've ever worked.
- [57:49]
A
Well, yeah, you're the first.
- [57:50]
B
I've never been, but I've never been this in love. Like, this is like, it in the.
- [57:54]
A
Era where everybody gets credit for being the first at something. This is actually a legitimate thing where you'll be remembered. This is, you know, who invent electricity, who, you know, who brought animals back from extinction. That, that's you. That's you and your, and your team and your, I mean that's something that many years from now and I'll be able to tell my kids hey, I talked to that guy. You know, so that's kind of, I mean. Yeah, you know, and, and then I'll keep, I'll keep pushing to bring back. There's got to be a sloth relative because we know little ones in the tree ain't the same thing. So.
- [58:28]
B
No, no, no, but, but, but I, I think that you're, I think that you will have to get to like we're not there yet and we're pretty like I, I, I believe I put this in the category as artificial wombs.
- [58:41]
A
Full.
- [58:43]
B
Chromosome level synthesis and being able to like because we can edit a lot of things, we can read a lot of things and we can write things and we can even synthesize big blocks of DNA, we're getting pretty good at it and we, we work with a lot of people in that category and they're incredible companies but no one really has the use case that we have which is like let's print the whole gene up. Right. And so we're working on those technologies. They're in the infancy. They're like where our artificial womb is. But I think that's just a function of time. Right. And so to your point, like to your thing, we, if we get artificial wombs, right and stick the landing which I think we will and if that technology progresses the point where even if it's just, you know, probably 100x where it is today, even if it doesn't get the full chromosome level things we can use micro injection injection into a genetically modified recipient and grow it ex utero. So we may not one day, we may not need that base genetic donor one day we'll.
- [59:46]
A
That's the same thing with Smilodons and saber tooth tigers is not really cats but that's the same thing where we don't have a, maybe a hyena would be, I don't know. But like.
- [59:55]
B
Well I, so I do think so from a Smilodon perspective, I will tell you, I think that you could use a clouded leopard as the, as the genetic donor. There isn't. We have phenomenal Smilodon genomes that some are published, some are not published and we've got a lot of genetic diversity in It. So we're not currently working on smiling lime but we could. And then from the other one though, I'm sorry it's reverse. We have Homotherium genomes. We don't have Smilodon. I'm sorry I screwed that up. It went the exact opposite. So we have great Homotherium which was in that class in that family.
- [60:40]
A
They were pretty widespread. They had a good run. So man figured out that we don't.
- [60:46]
B
Have a great genome. We only have fragments. There's. There's most likely the best ways that we're going to get a full genome for Smilodon is probably Patagonia Cave Expeditions. So if you want to sign up.
- [60:59]
A
For that one, I'm down for that. I could do that. Yeah. Because caves are good. It's the snow. The snow is my. The snow's my. That's my bear trap. Yeah. It's there. I'm not. I'm not digging in the snow but. Or walk around the snow. I prefer trouble. And that's the other thing with a lot of these extinct Creek. A lot of them especially that were on North American big mammals. South America's tropical which means everything's gone, you know. Yeah, that's the one.
- [61:27]
B
The titan boa's gone. Which is good.
- [61:29]
A
Yeah. Well. Yeah.
- [61:30]
B
Yeah.
- [61:30]
A
I don't want to see it. And as a guy who. Who breeds ball pythons for fun. For different genetic colors and stuff. Stuff that. And they're. And when they're in a bad mood. That's enough. I. I wouldn't even want to think about a 16 or 17. No. What 20, 35.
- [61:43]
B
I think they're 10 to 30s.
- [61:44]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Because a Burmese python's a bad day at work. Yeah. You know and they're third. Yeah, they're right. Yeah. They're right around the same. They're not. They don't have the girth of the head size of the anacondas. But even the ones we have today, if you're under 5ft and got small shoulders, you might not make it. Briz especially apparently they just discovered that they have the ability why they're asphyxiating to crush bone while they're doing it to make you a little more swallowable. So there was this long standing thing in the Amazon where they couldn't eat NATO humans. They can't get their mouths around the shoulders when they're squeezing them. Usually your collarbones pop like.
- [62:20]
B
Yeah.
- [62:20]
A
So they're. So they're finding out. They're like I don't.
- [62:22]
B
I don't I don't want to. I wouldn't roll the dice on that one. I wouldn't like that.
- [62:26]
A
I'm not gonna listen. If I see a squirrel look at me sideways in the. The forest and the woods, I'm going to give him his respect. He's not the same squirrel on my fence. He's seen. He's survived some. He's got some tattoos. I don't want none of that. They're all. You know what I'm saying? Mother Nature. You make it that long, you ain't no punk, you know, so you got to be.
- [62:45]
B
You got to respect it. You gotta. You gotta be thoughtful and respect it. Which is. Which. Which is awesome. Though, to your point that the might have made my Mother Nature is pretty incredible. Incredible.
- [62:55]
A
It is. And man. Man, if I. I could sit and just. I. We got to do this again real soon.
- [63:01]
B
Yeah. Yeah. So we'll keep you informed.
- [63:06]
A
Please.
- [63:06]
B
We got a lot of great cool stuff coming. If you want you and your kids come tour the lab.
- [63:11]
A
Oh, a thousand percent. Oh, please. Even if my kids are interested, I'm going.
- [63:16]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can go. Like, who cares?
- [63:18]
A
You'll.
- [63:19]
B
You'll. I think you'll love it. Talk to me's fine.
- [63:21]
A
I know I will.
- [63:21]
B
Love it Is great.
- [63:23]
A
Yeah. And then.
- [63:23]
B
And then we'll get you with the Explorers Club. I think you'll love it.
- [63:26]
A
That'll be awesome, man. I appreciate you, man. Thank you so much for doing this today, man. And I got to get you on back again because I. I got. I'm gonna find. I'm gonna find some more stuff and see if. And you're gonna like. Nope. We need a uterus for that. Or we can do that. So next time I'm gonna have.
- [63:40]
B
At least you have a laundry list.
- [63:41]
A
I'm have a laundry list of ext. Of my top 10 things to please bring back. And we'll see what we can.
- [63:47]
B
I'm sure we can knock a couple of them off.
- [63:49]
A
All right. I appreciate you, sir. Thank you so much for today, man. The world to me. Thank you.