B (3:45)

Oh yeah.

A (3:46)

Love the ocean, love those, the cinematography, you know. And as more things get advanced you get to see a whole lot more drones have kind of changed the game I think a little bit with what we're seeing. But I, I grew up loving. I had like a dual life. I was a fish tank guy. I have yeah massive fish tanks. I have un. I'm huge in. I breed cichlids. It's like matching colors and like all that stuff. And I was actually had a chance just a little bit on my background. I was taking zoology stuff. Had thought about being a marine biologist when I was a kid. Started got accepted to some classes and then had a chance to get a scholarship to a high special high school in Santa Barbara. You go out on the boat and you learn all about the ocean and stuff like that. But I was a little too deep into my sports to give up that. But it always has been a passion of mine. Just a huge lover of fish in general but the ocean and, and huge shark guy. Got a couple opportunities in life to swim with sharks. When I was with the wwe we went to South Africa with one of my close friends PJ Sparks, which he was Justin Gabriel in the WWE and he was from there and we went out and we went swimming with the great whites. So that was quite an experience. And I broke the rule. Cause they're like, you can't touch them, you know. But it's like one of those things. It was one of those moments where I'm in the cage. You can't. These things are bigger than life and you can't see them four feet in front of you. Like you just. And then they just appear and there's just no, there's no experience. Like when you feel that you are not even close to the top of the food chain. When a, when a shark opens his black eye within a foot and like how did you miss a 13 foot shark like that close to you? But I reached out, I had to touch it to see, to say that I had, I did it. And I remember when it came up, they're like, have you lost your mind? And I was like, I don't know. I was in a weird place. Never thought in my lifetime that I'd be that close to a great white shark. Luckily, because I'm sure the sharks were used to all the people jumping in the cages and stuff. It was probably a little more reserved of a great white shark. But just so I'm a huge fan. I don't, I don't think there's, I don't think there's been a show, whether it's Planet Earth or doesn't matter what network it on, if it's, if it's got some stuff on there about the ocean, I'm all about it. So very excited to have you here today. You got an amazing background. Now, was it a lot? Was it always a love that got you into chasing this, this amazing career? Was it always in love with one?

B (6:37)

Absolutely. As a matter of fact, Tyrus, some of the attributes you describe of yourself really reflect a younger Greg Skomal as well. I fell in love with the ocean. I grew up in a suburb of New York City, Connecticut suburb in New York City, Long Island Sound. And I'm a lot older than you. So Long Island Sound back in the 70s was not the most pristine body of water. So my love of the ocean didn't come from necessarily exploring Long Island Sound. It and came from watching television. I hate to tell kids that these days, but you know, the undersea world of Jacques Cousteau, you know, the movie Jaws, those kinds of things really inspired me. And I said to myself, boy, this is something that looks really cool. And I had this, like most kids, I had this fascination with sharks and dinosaurs, but I never quite outgrew the shark one. And I decided at a pretty young age, you know, I kept aquariums in the house like you do, you know, I still have one. Yeah. I'm just fascinated by fish and sharks. And I chased a childhood dream and I caught it, you know, and so I'm a Pretty damn lucky guy. And I'm pretty thankful that I'm able to do what I love to do.

A (7:52)

Yeah. One of my favorite movies as a kid was Mr. Limpet. He turned into the fish.

B (8:00)

Not many people know that movie. Tyrus. Damn it.

A (8:03)

If you're a fish. If you're a fish guy. You know that movie?

B (8:06)

You're damn right. Don Knotts. Don Knotts played Mr. Limpet. A great film. Oh, God. You know, I loved it. I wanted to be him. I mean, that's how weird I was.

A (8:18)

Well, you know, I think it's just something about. Because, like yourself, I didn't. There wasn't a lot of. I was growing up in California, and other than the occasional trip to, like, Zuma Beach, I was mostly rivers and stuff up in the high desert or the solen T hunga area of the valley. And so most of that stuff came from seeing these magnificent television shows we're showing, like, traveling all over the world and Jaws and stuff like that. And then you start to learn about the diversity of the ocean and all the cool things out there. And it's amazing because behind you, you got a great picture of a blue shark. A photo of a blue shark. And I'm assuming up there, mounted, is a blue shark. So I got a chance. And this is when we can get into the meat and bones of. Of what you do. So the great guys from Wicked Tuna, they invited me out on a fishing trip, and so I went to Massachusetts to fish with those guys, and I caught a blue shark, female. She was about. I think she was like, nine feet. The blue. You can't even describe it. You just. It's. It's like nothing you've ever seen. It's not. It's not metallic. It's just. It's. You were just kind of. We were looking for tuna, but it was just. And then he said, hey, do you want to tag her? Because we could tag her, you know, and if she ever gets caught again, we can, you know, get the data to go back. And I thought it was really cool. So I put the name of my kids on the. On the tag, you know, And a few years ago, just recently, she had got. It was probably. I did that show in maybe 20. 22. Yeah, I was 22, maybe. And just recently they caught her, and she's gone on. And I look at all the places that she has been, like, in her. In her journeys and stuff, and it's absolutely amazing.

B (10:06)

Oh, yeah, yeah. Very cool. Very cool. You see, you have the taste, you know what it's like you, you know, and to learn about these animals, you know, you see that shark and you go, wow, that's really cool. I don't want to kill it. I want to keep it in the water.

A (10:20)

Right.

B (10:20)

You know, I want to see where it goes, what it. That's really basically what I do for a living. You know, I'm. Like I said, I'll say it over and over again. I'm a lucky guy.

A (10:29)

So what is a, what is a typical week like for you?

B (10:32)

Well, it really depends on the time of year, you know, so right now I'm settled into my, you know, getting into my winter mode, where we largely do a lot of data analysis, writing, you know, writing grants, writing research papers, mentoring students. You know, it's kind of our, you know, we're out of the field. I will have other projects going on that are not in New England. For example, in a couple of weeks I go down to the Bridget, British Virgin Islands, where I work with a nonprofit down there, and we're going to be tagging a number of shark species. But when I'm in the intermode in winter mode in New England, you know, I settle into the cold. I'm fine with it. I love the seasons and we analyze data and to get that done. But the average day in the summertime, of course, is much different, you know, as we get into those warmer months and we know that the species of shark that we study are migrating up here, we start preparing for it. You know, we're using a variety of different kinds of technologies to study the three dimensional movement ecology of these animals, you know, ranging from very simple tags that you might put on these animals, hoping it'll get recaptured again, to more complicated satellite linked tags, you know, so a lot of my focus the last 15 years has been on great white sharks, you know, and, you know, that's the work we're doing here off of the coast of Massachusetts, you know, using a variety of tagging technologies to better understand how this animal lives. You know, not only from year to year, month to month, day to day, but hour to hour, minute to minute, even second to second.

A (12:07)

You know, one of the things that I found amazing about great whites, the more that we are learning about them, there was always, you kind of had a feeling, I guess in the beginning that they were very solitary. But with the, I noticed with the predation of orcas that one shark gets attacked and then the entire population goes deep and disappears. That from the area that to me would lead to at least maybe a Theory of some communication, some form of hierarchy, where if the dominant shark or something, it has to be. I mean, that's pretty wild. It will happen. And then all of a sudden the other sharks will to run. I don't know if it's a distress signal, but have you noticed, obviously, you see when in feeding and stuff, there's a certain. Certain pecking order. Do you think there's possibility that there is some form of communication? All things may communicate to some sort extent, but there seems to be.

B (13:08)

Right.

A (13:08)

They kind of travel in just dispersed groups. It's almost like a grouping. It's not like a traditional school.

B (13:16)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, you know, we have these areas, particularly with the species white shark, the great white shark, where they aggregate seasonally and you kind of think of them as a whole bunch of people in the same restaurant. Right, right. Those people may not necessarily know each other, but if one of those people suddenly gets shot or killed, everybody scatters. And so that's kind of what happens with these white sharks, you know, and we think the communication is chemical communication.

A (13:45)

Possibly blood or some distress from.

B (13:47)

Exactly, exactly. I mean, that's really what, you know, tips them off to whether or not, you know, a female male are ready to mate. Right. Again, that's hormonal. That's a chemical pheromone communication. And we think that's primarily the way these animals interact with each other. Now, we can tell you from seeing literally thousands of white sharks off of Cape Cod that they don't appear to really like each other most of the time, you know, because they've got scars not only from the seals they're trying to eat, but from each other. You know, they beat each other up. And so we know they generally don't want to be around each other, but we also know at some point they have to get together. They got to make baby sharks. And so you point to these. You know, the communication. We think it's largely chemical, but there could be other ways.

A (14:37)

Yeah, because I was just. I'm thinking about. Because we seem to be learning more and more about them. And of course, one of the big questions is there's a lot more sightings on the east coast than there has been. I attribute that to the. The great job that the American fishermen are doing that they're doing in the environment to where there were. We have overpopulating seals again, because there is a great. There is a large fish population because you don't have a lot of fat seals if there's no fish. So if you got a lot of fat, healthy seals. Then the sharks are going to come in because they eat on the shield. So we're there. We seem to be managing the environment very well on the state side to where, you know, because fishermen almost seals and elephant seals are becoming like pigeons hanging out at the docks now because of what, what they have. Would you back, would you support that as that being the reason why we're seeing so much more of the sharks?

B (15:35)

Absolutely. And you know, that's not only here on the east coast, but it's been demonstrated historically in other parts of the world as we have reestablished seal and sea lion populations due to high levels of protection. So in many ways we've demonstrated this conservation success story. But as you know, you and I both know there can be repercussions to this kind of conservation success.

A (15:59)

Yeah, because this convers has teeth and eats things. Unfortunately, they don't, they don't test it out with their fin first. They, you know, they don't have any hands, so they can't pinch you to see if you're right. But I just, I find it when you're. And there's been a lot of, when you see groupings and we were talking about that. Is it, is it very divided in terms of, of sex? Is it typically males that swim together? Females is a mixed bag or is it just one big dominant one? I know there's the big great white out in Mexico that everyone talks about, the giant one, but is it, is it predominantly all males swimming together? Is it females swimming together? Is it, is an age thing, is it a maturity, is this, or is it a size thing? When you're, when you're seeing the sharks show up in groups, is it, is it just kind of random?

B (16:51)

Well, you know, these aggregation sites have a mixed bag. So, you know, it depends on the site itself, whether we're talking South Australia, South Africa, Cape Cod, and it depends on the time of year. You know, here on Cape Cod, we get an equal mix of males and females. There's a tendency for males to dominate early in the summer with younger males, you know, what we call sub adults and then these sub adult females showing up. And as we get later into the season, it seems to tip toward the adults showing up in bigger numbers. So it changes over the course of the season. And a social. We believe, and it has been demonstrated in California that there's a social hierarchy that will develop. You know, and quite frankly, size matters. You know, that's kind of how it works in the animal world. So you Know, a larger dominant shark will displace, easily displace smaller ones.

A (17:47)

Now, when you, you, when you come together and you guys are like, hey, we're going to tag great white females this, this week or whatever, what is that like for you? Like, I mean, are you. You're getting in there and you're tag. Are you, Are you hitting the tag?

B (18:04)

Yeah, yeah. I, I'm basically the, the primary tagger in the, in the take.

A (18:10)

Take me through that. I mean, because that's, that's the last rodeo. I mean, you're the last cowboy. I mean, you're tagging. You're tagging the biggest fish in this to see, with all due respect, the whale sharks and whatever we, Whatever else we haven't discovered yet.

B (18:27)

Yeah, I mean, it's a. It's a freaking rush, man. I love it. Tyrus. I. I've tagged. I've personally tagged, you know, over 400.

A (18:35)

Individual white sharks, 100 great white sharks.

B (18:37)

You know, and that's just off the coast of. It doesn't count all the other species I've tagged in my career, which is probably on the order of thousands, but, you know, anytime. And we use a really unique tagging technique, we don't catch the shark or grab it because we're working so close to swimming beaches that the last thing I want to do is piss this thing off and send it into the shoreline where it might munch on somebody. And so with respect to the beachgoers and surfers and boogie boarders, we basically go up to each shark while it's free swimming at the surface, and I place a tag in it. I use a plane to find it, and then I place a tag in it while it's free swimming, using a long tagging pole and, And a small intramuscular dart. And you know that that tagging sequence has been highlighted in numerous films for, For Shark Fest, Shark Week, you name it, local media and, And I tell you, each time I do it, it's like the first time I'm doing it.

A (19:35)

Right, because it kind of be cr. I mean, because you slip, you fall in the water. That could be. That could be it. You miss, you know, you miss enough as expensive equipment.

B (19:47)

Yeah.

A (19:48)

Is it. What. When you're, when you're bearing down and is it ever, like you're thinking like, this is like Jaws, you know, like, you. It's like that intense. You're. You're on the boat, you're leaning it down, you're like, give me closer. Give me. I'm trying, like, what's the. What's the wildest thing that's happened in one of your tagging expeditions?

B (20:06)

Oh, man. Well, sometimes it's the. The sharks don't cooperate and I gotta tag into deep water. But one time we were working off of Orleans, which is a small town on Cape Cod, and the water was like coffee, it was like tea. It was dark, dirty. I couldn't see the shark, the planes, you know, a thousand feet above me saying, gee, it's right under you. And I'm like, man, I can't see it. And the first thing I do when I come up on a shark is I try to get footage of both sides of it. GoPro footage. So I just basically have a GoPro on a painter's pole. Pretty unsophisticated technology. And by getting video, we can identify who that shark is in case I can't tag it. And so during this particular situation, the shark that I couldn't see suddenly leapt out of the water, mouth wide open, right underneath me, and snapped its jaws. And I looked basically right down the mouth of a great white shark. We ended up naming that fish psycho shark. But it was a split second. But I'll never forget that image. And it missed me, you know, it missed clearly, but, you know, and we got video of it. So we got video sequence of that. And I watched it over and over and over again thinking, oh, man, that's not good. That's. That's a high anxiety moment in my world that.

A (21:25)

How do you go? I mean, you come home from wrestling sharks and then you got to deal with everyday life. That's got to be.

B (21:33)

Yeah, yeah.

A (21:34)

You know, we're saying I'm bored, same old thing today and gonna go tag a ton and a half shark. Oh, man, I wonder what all the rich people are doing today.

B (21:48)

Yeah, my wife, my kids always ask me, dad, any today? Did you get any today? You know, and if I say none, they go, oh, man, you suck. And it's like, oh, I don't really suck. I'm pretty good at it. I got like seven the other day.

A (22:01)

This isn't a common job. This isn't like people just walk off the street and go wrangles sharks for a living. Which I know, obviously the great white is the most impressive. But in terms of species, which ones do you find the most sophisticated or hard to track? I know it's got to be hard to tag a mako with their speed, they're extremely intelligent. Hammerheads always look cool to me. The giant hammerheads, bull sharks, seems to be Bull sharks and tiger sharks. Obviously those are all some of the big boys. I'm sure you've done all the big species. Is there anyone that's eluded you yet?

B (22:41)

Well, I've done everything from Greenland sharks in the Arctic to bulls, tigers and hammerheads. Those three species, bulls, tigers, hammerheads in the tropics. They're powerful animal, they're big, powerful animals. The most difficult to tag is the great hammerhead. We typically have to catch these fish which is a whole different experience. It's a whole different wrangling experience where you're handling these animals and you're tight to them and that can be somewhat, that's dangerous. So you really have to take your time and know what you're doing and it's not for somebody who hasn't done it before which is why I bring students out, I train them and we get that experience. But those animals are really quite amazing. Great hammerheads are tough to catch. I think they're pretty sharp, they smart, they know what they want and they don't take a typical bait.

A (23:30)

They.

B (23:31)

And at the other end of the spectrum is the tiger shark which will eat almost anything but has the size and power to really kick your ass. And then, and then the really unpredictable one is the bull shark. Well you never know which way it's going to go zigging or zagging. And they got bulk, they got power and I think they got attitude. An attitude I don't like in any animal. Right. So it's tough with those. They scare me a bit. All these sharks actually scare me a bit and I think that's a. Having a healthy fear.

A (24:02)

I think it's a respect. I think you have to have a respect exactly because I mean speak we're learning so much. Just recently I think was a Greenland shark that they estimated was she was 400 years old.

B (24:15)

Yep.

A (24:16)

I mean they have no idea of what's down there or how. I mean you don't you Basically they eat what if they're lucky once a year I mean down there it's just hit or miss. I mean right. I mean right. The occasional whale carcass I guess sinking down but we keep finding extraordinary different. There's always well the bottom to see. They're finding new stuff all the time, you know, because that's exactly right. There was a video, I don't know, I'm assuming in your line of business you've probably heard everything. So obviously I, I, when I was in South Africa one of the things that I, I bought was I when I was doing the tour with my buddy P.J. they had a giant Megalodon tooth. And I managed to talk the guy and let me get it because it's like, you know, so I, I had this giant. And I'm looking at this Megalodon tooth and then you start going down the rabbit hole where people are like, oh, they could be out there still. But I'm always like, well, be a lot of whales with mouth marks on them, right? There'd be some.

B (25:15)

Exactly.

A (25:16)

There'd be some scarring. But then watching just this crazy video and there's a great white feeding. There was some guys feeding a great white. And all of a sudden this shark comes out of nowhere with a completely different fin. Dorsal fin was, was way. It was more of a 90 degree angle. Had a little bit of. It was just as big, but it seemed definitely different. And they're like, is this Megalodon? Is this. I don't know what it was, but it definitely was, was different. When you're out there, have you seen things that make you question. We clearly don't know everything that's out there. I don't believe there's a Megalodon the size of a whale shark swimming around the ocean. Could be wrong, but I don't know how much food is at the bottom of the ocean. But we know giant. We didn't know anything about giant squids till what, 10 years. We finally went in the last three got actual. And the footage is still babies. I mean, other than seeing what's left over on the side of a sperm whale's mouth. Do you, do you get that thrill when you're out there identifying shark species? Have you come across. I know there was also some talk about a different type of mako. Perhaps there was a, there was some talk about there was a subspecies of mako in San Francisco. Like, do you, every time you go out, do you think, hey, we might see something different today? Or you.

B (26:30)

Pretty much, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, my approach to this job is really, it's an adventure and a learning experience and as old as I am and as much as I've done and as my many papers as I've published and books and all that stuff, the more I'm just more and more open minded, I even go back and question some of the stuff I've previously written, you know, and, you know, and I'm starting to realize that like in particular with like the great white shark, you know, there are a lot of things we really don't know, although it is probably the most charismatic and popular species on Earth. It's been intensively studied and there's a lot we don't know. And I love the fact that over the last decade we've seen an explosion in people. Everyone has cell phones, everyone has video cameras. And I love when people send us stuff. And I go, whoa. And sometimes it does stump me. I go, I don't know what that is. And I might try to, I might guess at it, but there are things that people see, we don't know what they are. And what bothers me is when I deal with other scientists who are not open minded to these things. And that happens, you know, it just happens.

A (27:41)

That's weird though, right? Because you would, you would think in that field, more than anything, discovery is the purpose or understanding. Like science is pretty, you want to figure out as best you can because mother Nature will always throw you for a loop. You think you, you know it and then, then a platypus shows up. You know, it's just one of those things where, where you know, the rules change and, and you've. Let's. And I think that's, I think you should have an, you have to have an open mind when you're dealing with science. I think honestly, you need to have a lot of open mind with a lot of things that's going on today. But one thing for sure is you have to be open to exciting new things. And you, you co authored a book called Chasing Shadows. Can we talk about that a little bit?

B (28:27)

Oh, absolutely, yeah, we've talked a little bit about it, but we didn't. You didn't know it at the time, but yeah, a lot of what I've discussed in terms of my upbringing, my desire to become a shark scientist, the influence of Jaws, the emergence of Cape Cod as a white shark aggregation area, the complexity of restoring populations of seals and sharks and then having shark attacks and fatality, they're all in this book. They really trace the history of white shark research through my eyes. My own experience is not only with white sharks, but with Greenland sharks and basking sharks and a variety of other species. And that's in this book, Chasing Shadows, which I wrote with, and I give a lot of credit to my co author, Rhett Talbot, who's a real writer. I'm more of a technical writer. But yeah, it's a fun adventure. And it's not a textbook.

A (29:19)

No. Which is good because you're telling stories and you talk about. It's referred to as pioneering, but satellite and acoustic tagging of species that's when you're able to. Now, the. The. The opportunity I got to tag the blue white was if the blue shark is. If she gets caught, then, you know, you get that information. And I'm assuming that satellite and acoustic means you can get a constant feed on where the animal is going.

B (29:49)

Yes. It's an explosion in technology. The. The tag you put on that blue shark is what we call a. That was started in 1964 by a guy named Jack Casey out of New Jersey. He started tagging sharks. I ended up working for Jack Casey in the 80s, and he was really a pioneer in shark tagging. And at the same time, another researcher by the name of Frank Carey was starting to build these electronic tags that allowed you to follow sharks. And then ultimately, the development of satellite linkages came about where you could track sharks in almost real time and know what they're doing over much broader, broader scales and not reliant on another fisherman catching that shark. And so what's cool about my career. And I've basically gone from a horse and buggy, you know, to a Tesla Corvette, you know, in terms of the development of technologies over the course of my career to study these animals. And that's a real cool time to live.

A (30:50)

Yeah. Because I mean, just imagine that you can. And what's the craziest migration pattern you've seen? Which species travels the most?

B (31:00)

Well, you know, the white shark is really very highly migratory in terms of its ability. It moves. It'll move all the way from the Gulf of America all the way up to Canadian waters over the course of a single year and back again. Right. And so a lot of species of sharks do that. The white shark goes all the way to Canada, and then sometimes it wanders out to the minute Live the Atlantic Ocean as far as the Azores. And when it's out in the middle of the Atlantic, it dives down to depths as great as, you know, 3,000ft, which to me, just blows my mind. And if there's any scientist tyrus on Earth that tells you what those sharks are doing when they're out in that deep water, they're making it up, I'm guaranteed.

A (31:43)

Yeah. Because you have no idea.

B (31:44)

We have no idea. That's one of the big mysteries, you.

A (31:48)

Know, is I wonder what the food source would be. I'm assuming squid.

B (31:52)

Yeah.

A (31:52)

You know, or some type of mollusk or something. But because we're starting to see there's. Well, with squids and jellyfish is pretty much if. If they're kind of taken over anyways, we're seeing a huge increase in population. Those Humboldt squids look scary. They look like a pain in the ass. And you're in your adventures though, have coming across like you've come across some wild. What's. I'm trying to steal another story out of you. What's the wildest non shark you've had to deal with while dealing with your expeditions?

B (32:25)

Oh, non shark. Maybe Non people. Yeah, because people have certain crazy people I've worked with over the years. I'm trying to think in terms of other species that I've had a chance to work with. I mean, mostly it's been probably dead. Dead seals, dead whales over the years that I'm always drawn to because sharks are feeding on them.

A (32:54)

Yes.

B (32:55)

And, and that's, and that's, that's always exciting as much as it's. It can be a gruesome event to be part of because these damn things stink, quite honestly.

A (33:07)

Yeah.

B (33:08)

But to see a white shark scavenging a whale or a dead seal is just remarkable. It gives you a sense of the power of these animals, you know. But, you know, I still have this long lifelong fascination like you do with, with keeping fish in aquariums and then being out snorkeling in clear water and exploring and scuba diving. I love all that stuff.

A (33:30)

Clear water. Clear water is key. Clear water is key.

B (33:35)

It is key. You put me in clear water, I can spend hours on a patch reef just enjoying the little things, right?

A (33:42)

Yeah. Oh, I. You just find a spot and hover and just sit with your snorkel and stare at one little spot. You will see hundreds of little life acts going on. Like, you know, and I always tell people like, Joe, when you go snorkeling, slow down because the one fish you saw, you just missed 20. You know, there's so much going on there and you're. And you get to be out there and you get to be doing that stuff. And, and when people, when you meet people and you talk to people that aren't as verse as sharks, do you. I feel like the stereotypes of sharks have kind of weighed a little bit. I think the. There's been a lot of changes and you can make arguments and stuff, but I do think overall society is more into things like sharks and dolphins than they were in the past or, you know, unless you were in it, you know, like you were like, I live on a beach neighborhood, so I don't want, you know, bad things to happen. But across the board, conservation seems to be like a normally accepted thing. Like very rarely do you have people like, well, you know, I rather have a good hotel vacation spot than sharks in the water. Like, it seems like we've gotten away from that.

B (34:57)

You're. You're absolutely right. You know, over the course of my career, I've seen this change in attitudes. Not, not everyone loves sharks, but I'll tell you, a lot more people do than they used to. And I think it's associated with the, the ways we communicate. Social media vectors, educational programs. You know, I think scientists have gotten better at communicating and the science has gotten better in terms of what we're learning and we share that with the public. You know, one of the good examples from my book is this white shark swam into a shallow pond in 2004, not far from where I was living. I was living on Martha's Vineyard at the time. And it became trapped. And the people. The response I was getting from the general public because the media descended on it, but the response I was getting is basically, save that shark, Save that shark, you know, please. And one guy even said, if you don't save the shark, we going to come get you. They threatened me. And then I did some historical work and found out that 50 years earlier, in 1952, a white shark did a similar thing. It swam into a salt pond and within an hour they killed it. Yeah, I mean, so there's definitely this change in attitudes. And I'm not as negative on the population as others can be in terms of how smart people are and how people are embracing, I think conservation.

A (36:17)

Yeah, I think it is going around. And how much do you think? Obviously every major network has a Shark Week now of some sort. You know, Discovery started that party and then National Geographic has one. And I've been, I was part of, of WWE's Shark Week episode when we did the thing with the great white. And. But I think. And maybe. And again, I, I never try to throw shots, but sometimes I, I worry. And watching the sensationalism of the shark, you know, the, the constant, we got to feed the shark to get the shark to jump. Does it ever concern you that they're kind of normalizing people, shark intermingling, where the shark will start looking at people at a food, as a food source, you know, because you're like, oh, hey, that boat coming in. All for six months or however long to try to get these TV series. They're dumping chum and feeding the sharks and trying to get them to jump and things like that, or trying to get. Because it seems like the creativity, like the first couple of years of it. It was all these different shows and it was mainly scientific research and study, and I think that was awesome. And then it got into just kind of a reality TV spin where you just want to get the shark to jump and have some guy with braids go, yeah, bro, this is living. But it's like less, less education and more sensationalism. That's the only. That would be. My only criticism is I'd like to see Shark Week stick to science a little more than like the cartoon character running on the water waiting for the shark to bite it. Agree?

B (37:52)

Yeah, man, I agree 1,000%. And I've done over 50 shows for Shark Week and Shark Fest and PBS and you name it, and they've ranged from some really stupid things to very good science. And the older I've gotten, the more I realize that I only work with certain production companies that I know will incorporate the science and push back against the broadcasters who really have the final say. So, yeah, there's a lot of sensationalism. I think in the grand scheme of things, we're on the plus side of the ledger in terms of what these kinds of shows do, in terms of inspiring perhaps younger people in conservation. But sometimes I just got to turn it off because it's so hokey. And the science, or the made up science in some of these shows is so bad.

A (38:43)

Yeah. When the sharks don't matter, the two sharks and the frames don't match. Like, it's not the same shark, bro. Yeah. But again, I always say I'm too close to it. So I, Yeah, the, I'm not that target audience, so I won't take it personal because, you know, it's like, hey, most people, they don't pay attention to it. But I agree, I think it, I think it's more positive than negative.

B (39:06)

Yeah, yeah. Some years, just barely another year is a lot, you know, so, you know, a lot of us in the scientific community, some people walk away from, refuse to do these kinds of shows. And I always say, you know, my father used to say, and I'm sure he didn't say it wasn't the first, but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

A (39:26)

Yeah.

B (39:26)

And so, you know, I, I participate, you know, and I weigh these shows out, and that's what other scientists do. I encourage them to do it. But push, you got to push hard, you know, and don't make it about just being on tv, make it about producing some shred, however small it might be, of science, you know, because A.

A (39:45)

Shark doesn't need, it doesn't need glitz and glam. It's, it's Right. It ate dinosaurs. Like, it lived. Like it's been here for a millennia and then some.

B (39:59)

Yeah.

A (39:59)

So you really don't need to really throw much confetti around it. It is an amazing. It is, has very little changed in evolution over time, which means that they pretty much figured it out in terms of survival.

B (40:12)

Yes.

A (40:13)

And I think that is pretty amazing. And we keep learning more and more about them, and I think that's cool. And we keep finding new species and stuff like that. I, I, I don't think Megalodon's out there. But you know what? I would not be surprised if there was a, maybe an, a deeper, a larger, maybe a body of shark that lives in the deep. We're still, like I said, just, it changes all the time. Like, now we're starting to see sightings of beaked whales, which we never saw before. Now we're starting to see them. Some of that's drones, maybe some of it's just the foods, because there has been a shift. Right. Like there's, we're starting to see a lot of different fish from different areas appearing in places. But that's just Mother Nature, right? That's just. Things change over time, right?

B (40:58)

That's right. Things change over time. And, and never, never forget, we, we haven't explored much of the ocean yet.

A (41:06)

No, we've been, we've been in outer space more than we've been in our bottom of our ocean.

B (41:10)

That's right. And there's been a big push. And one of my colleagues is going down this road in better understanding what happens in the deep ocean in terms of resources for these animals to feed on. It turns out there's a massive amount of life in the Twilight zone, between, say, 600ft and 3,000ft, there's a massive amount of life. And many of the big sharks that we tag, whether they're white sharks or whether they're marlins or whether they're tunas, swordfish, they spend time in the deep ocean and they're not going to waste their energy.

A (41:43)

No.

B (41:44)

And so as the technology improves, you know, we're putting camera tags on sharks these days, and it's really cool to see what they do, but we have to get them back at some point. We're going to see what these animals are actually doing in these abyssal zones. And I think it'll be quite revelatory. And you know, and remember, we didn't find the Megamouth shark until the 1970s.

A (42:03)

Yeah.

B (42:04)

You know, so that.

A (42:05)

How do you miss.

B (42:06)

There's a lot to be learned.

A (42:07)

Yes, yes, I'm excited. I keep looking. I'm always my, my wife always teases me about my, my fish tank hobby, but it's like it keeps me sane. But I'm always. Because I breed for different colors and stuff. And you know, I'm a big fan of venustratuses and crossing venustratuses and flower horns. That's my, that's been my thing lately. But it's, it's such a fun hub. Again, not anything as awesome as close in comparison to basically wrestling a great white shark and tagging, I mean that's got to be one of the coolest jobs of all time. And what a biggest thrill. It must not. When you go, how, how hard do you laugh when you go, someone says, hey, let's go to a shark scary movie. How much do you laugh? Like you just sit there like, ah, that's off. That's wrong. Oh, that never did it must be miserable for you. Like Jaws. At least she had the great score so you kind of let things go. But like the modern day shark movie, how brutal is that for you to sit through?

B (43:12)

You know, there was a time, Tyrus, where I couldn't do it. I, you know, I was heavily into the, you know, the science and I still am obviously, but I've, you know, the older I get, the more I've lightened up and I, and you know, when my kids are a little younger, I would sit and watch really goofy, you know, shark shows on the Sci Fi Channel and I'd sit there and laugh and love it and say, okay, what are they going to do this time? The radioactive sharks and sharks with, you know, strange things, I mean, beach sharks and you name it.

A (43:43)

Octashark I think was my favorite.

B (43:45)

Yeah, I love those. I'm fine with those shows. It was a great way to, to kill a winter more. Winter day on Sundays when my wife might be working and I'm hanging out with the kids. I mean I loved it and they would laugh with me, you know, so, you know, the science stuff is great and I, and I, and I really appreciate the push toward, you know, people wanting real science and banking on. But science is always changing and I think sometimes we take ourselves way too seriously, you know, and we gotta roll with it and be a little more lighthearted when it comes to this stuff. We know what we know and we're trying our best, you know.

A (44:22)

Yep. And, and, and you're doing a phenomenal job because we keep learning more and more information about sharks, sir. I appreciate that. Appreciate your time. And hey, where can everybody get. If we want to go pick up Chasing Shadows, where can we get it?

B (44:35)

Well, Chasing Shadows and then my other books, the White Shark Handbook and the Shark Handbook, all on Amazon and they should be in local bookstores as well. And if they aren't, go. Go yell at your bookstore owners. But yeah, Barnes and Noble Online, Amazon, all available there.

A (44:51)

Mysteries of the Great White Shark, you name it. And the Shark Handbook. Yeah, I'll be. I'll be scooping these up.

B (44:59)

Cool, man. I appreciate that. Thanks, Tyrus.

A (45:01)

I appreciate.

B (45:02)

And folks interested in this research we're doing, you know, we work really closely with the Atlantic White Shark Conservancy, so all their social media vectors, including mine as well. You know, I'm not very good at it, but I try to update folks.

A (45:16)

So if people want to do get more information and stuff, they just look up those information sites.

B (45:22)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

A (45:25)

All right. Well, doctor, thank you so much for your time today. It has been amazing.

B (45:29)

My pleasure. Thanks so much, Tyrus, for inviting me.

A (45:32)

If we can ever steal a glimpse of the you with that shark snapping his mouth at you, I. That. I would really appreciate that. If we could post that, that would be awesome.

B (45:42)

I'll. I'll def. I'll send a link to you guys.

A (45:44)

That would be great. I would love to see that. That had to be amazing.

B (45:47)

And I'll do that right after. I'll do that right after we hang up.

A (45:51)

All right, man. I appreciate you so much, Doc.

B (45:53)

Thanks, Tyrus. Take care. Good luck with things. Take care.

A (45:55)

Oh, yes, sir. Sam.