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- [00:00]
A
What it is. Welcome to Planet Tyrus. We're still growing and kicking strong here. Thank you guys for your support. Apparently, we are crushing it. And we are climbing that podcast ladder. So we will keep that party going. To keep the conspiracy theories going, the fun ones, not the political ones. Going to talk about all things UFO today. That's right. We're going to talk about unidentified flying objects, not that new word they talked about. And I have an expert in the field, the great Nick Pope. Little bit about his bio. This dude is cool. He's an English media commentator and former UK civil servant, best known for his work on identified aerial phenomenon. Uap. But we're not calling it that because it's ufo. And he worked at the Ministry of Defense. What a cool job title. I work for the Ministry of Defense. Defense. And from 1985 to 2006, and he was posted as the Secretariat, which is an English word for the boss, where his duties were included investigating UFO reports and assess any defense significance. So he was their eyes and ears in the sky for our. Is our sister country Britain. We. Yeah, something like that. I mean, we. We obviously demand. Because we won. So. But joining us today is the great Pope. And I'm excited to talk about. Of course, you've seen him from time to time, an ancient alien. So he's no stranger to the world about talking about this. So without further ado, Nick Pope, what it is. Well, hello, Mr. Pope. Excited to talk to you today. I'm big student of the UFO game. Watch a lot of Skinwalker Ranch. I think that's probably my favorite series. Probably have studied it often. I think it's hard as a. My minor in college was history. It's hard to look at historical buildings and historical artifacts and not kind of think, where did a lot of this stuff come from? So I think it's a natural question to talk about, you know, did life come from the stars above or whatever. And you've. You've been on the front of it. Your, your bios are pretty impressive. Like just the fact that you get to say that you work for the Ministry of Defense. I mean, that's pretty. That's. That's pretty. That's a pretty badass term. Can you tell us a little bit about how it came to be the connection between your career and becoming a UFO expert?
- [02:34]
B
Sure thing. Well, I was a civilian employee at the British Ministry of Defense, which is essentially the UK equivalent of the DoD here in the United States. So you get posted around every few years. And over the course of my 21 years there I done all sorts of things ranging from personnel policy and finance through to counterterrorism. And yeah, for much of the early 90s I was posted to the so called UFO desk which was essentially my job was to handle the subject for the British government and to assess the defense, national security and safety of flight issues.
- [03:17]
A
So was it because you would hear like if just thinking out the box like, oh, I got assigned to the UFO desk. I got an easy, I got an easy week of work because you know there's no, most people don't believe or not believe or it's not necessarily taken seriously. But there has been a significant change in terms of how people are look at UFOs. So when you first were told like hey, you're going to work on the UFO department, were you skeptical? Were you kind of like what is this, a side promotion? Did you look at it like, like why would we, why is this department even here?
- [03:52]
B
I had mixed feelings, yes. I mean I was in the junior managerial grade at the time and those of us who really wanted to get on and get up, we had our eye on for example jobs in Sec. Def's office. Now I didn't get that. I got the UFO desk. Obviously I thought it was going to be interesting. I didn't quite know what to expect. I didn't have any real knowledge of the subject, I didn't have any strong beliefs. But it certainly turned out to be an eye opening and I guess life changing experience. And like you say recently certainly in the United States, this whole subject has gone from fringe to mainstream. I guess I was a little ahead of that curve, but it was interesting nonetheless.
- [04:38]
A
Well, you know, because you think about when you hear UFOs or you know, I think they, they try to change the title for the while, what was it?
- [04:48]
B
Uap.
- [04:49]
A
Uap like nah, we're not having it, we're not gonna switch it on us. But they, when I, whenever they change the name of something that means they're trying to figure it out, how to present it. You know, there's a lot of leaks and, and there was a lot of famous moments, you know, so hard to believe what's real and not real on, on social media and stuff. But I remember, I believe it was Canadian Parliament was how they were having a meeting and one of the guys, he was basically describing the Grays and you know, he was talking about relationships that he had with aliens during his time in the Canadian government. So we've heard some pretty outlandish things. Again, there's this series in the United States called Skinwalker Ranch, where they're studying the phenomenon of orbs, a lot of orbs, and looks like they, you know, they cut through. They have little wormholes or black tunnels or whatever, black holes. And they're kind of, you know, I'm kind of hooked on that. When you see all the different stuff now, we, we're. Everything is a ufo, everything is an extra. When you first started to. When did. What year did it change for you where you were like. Because if you did see something, were you ever afraid of your career to say, hey, I. I've grown. Got a report here or story this checks out? Were you ever like, oh, I can't say that because I don't want to be considered fringe or weird or strange.
- [06:10]
B
You had to tread carefully, for sure. I mean, our kind of party line, I guess you would say, was to play down the true extent of our interest in this and our involvement. And when I say play it down, I mean not just with the public, but also with the media and with the British Parliament even. And we had this sound bite, which was really that we said that the phenomenon was of no defense significance. But that was a cop out that really meant anything we wanted it to mean. It was just a way to get people off our backs. And, yeah, I had to be careful not to do anything that would contradict that policy. But halfway through my posting on the UFO desk, we had a kind of wave of sightings that blew this standard line out of the water. I mean, it was huge triangular craft flying directly over the uk. Dozens, if not hundreds of witnesses, at least two military bases directly overflown. Lots of cops saw it, lots of military personnel saw it, and something like that. Yeah, it changed my perspective.
- [07:23]
A
Very hard to sweep that under the rug. What is the general consensus? They think that the general public couldn't handle knowing that there's possible UFOs in our atmosphere. Is it a hysteria thing? Is it just a classified government secret thing? Was it ever explained to you why you had to play it down so off, like, to that point?
- [07:49]
B
I think part of it is just the embarrassment that we didn't want to admit that there might be things in our airspace faster, more maneuverable, more capable in many ways than the cutting edge of our own aviation. People used to say, oh, you can't go public with an extraterrestrial reality if that's what we're dealing with. I'm not 100% sure. People used to say there'd be panic in the street. I don't know about that these days, but religion is a complicated one. It's such a tinderbox at the best of times. You throw aliens into the mix and who knows? But here, look, I'm going to be really controversial politically and say I used to think that people could handle it. And then Covid made me wonder. We had contingency plans for global pandemics and yet half the world lost its collective mind. And we shut down the world over a virus that, yeah, it was very real and deadly, but it was only ever going to affect in a bad way a very small proportion of the public who could be shielded. And yet we lost our minds.
- [09:06]
A
Yes, and that's, that's a great point.
- [09:09]
B
Yeah. If we can't handle that, and we obviously couldn't, how could we handle something that might be literally beyond our comprehension?
- [09:19]
A
Yeah, you know what, and the religion thing is because the way the people's beliefs are so non negotiable, you know, and, but when you look at historical any different countries from around the world, you will see pyramids and, and buildings and cities with very similar out of this angled world construction. The artwork is very similar. You got stuff in Egypt, it looks like stuff in Mexico. There's no way they would cross. And everything had a general thing was they all worshiped things that ascended down to us. To me that seems like a pretty at least to establish a decent hypothesis that those things can't be just common sense or make believe to be that non connected, you know what I'm saying? Like they're so far apart, but yet very similar. It seems it would be easier from the religious route to look at that. But people are just to your point, just set in their ways.
- [10:29]
B
They are. I mean. Yeah, with that in mind, I mean, ancient astronaut theory puts the idea that we were all visited in the distant past by extraterrestrials or non human intelligence, whatever term you want to use. And our ancestors all around the world misperceived these visitations as being the gods coming down and then built these great monuments and, and you know, I'm not, I'm not really an expert in the same way as some of the other folks. I mean, I'm on the show Ancient Aliens, but I tend to talk about the modern aliens.
- [11:04]
A
Yes, you do.
- [11:06]
B
But when you look at those ancient structures, and I mean some of them, some of the Central and Southern American sites, for example, places like Puma Punku and Sacsayhuaman, the blocks are so tight together you can't even slip a dollar bill between them and some of the huge blocks, I mean, at Baalbek, for example, in Lebanon, there are some of the trilithons, those great blocks. They weigh, I think, 750 metric tons, and they're up on the third and fourth level. And you think we'd struggle to do that today with. With, you know, the most sophisticated cranes and then the cutting of these stones. We would use diamond tip drills, high pressure water hoses, and other modern technology. So there are some genuine mysteries, for sure.
- [11:56]
A
Yeah. Because it's hard to believe they did that with, you know, six guys and some rope. You know, it just seems very difficult. But I think sometimes not being an expert in the field helps because you can kind of bring it down to just basic thought process. Like, wow, that's really, you know, like there's a lot of coincidences. The more you got into working with unidentified flying objects. When was it that your perception changed? When. Cause you. I think you had the right attitude going in. If you have an open mind about things, I think it's a lot easier to deal with change or question some things that you knew as fact. Or maybe was there a certain point where you were like, I have to rethink the way I look at life, the way I look at this world, my own belief system. Was there an aha moment for you?
- [12:50]
B
It's difficult to say. I mean, I mentioned this wave of sightings, which was 1993, that was a little bit of an eye opener. But even before then, going back, I mean, of course, I wasn't the first person to have this job. People had been doing this since the early to mid-50s, and we'd even had sightings before that during the Second World War. But one of the files was on an incident called the Rendlesham Forest Encounter. And something actually landed in Rendlesham Forest next to two US Military bases on British soil. And they actually examined the landing site, for example, with Geiger counters, and they found that the radioactivity levels seemed significantly higher than the average background. So it was always that physical evidence that was most compelling to me. Whether it was the radioactivity levels at the Rendlesham Forest landing site, whether it's all the pilot sightings we had where these things were simultaneously tracked on radar.
- [13:55]
A
Right. And we've seen. I've seen many videos where the pilots are trying to even get close to these things, and, you know, they're there and almost they move at a different, completely different form of propulsion. You know, like, it's like we're just behind the Times or we haven't caught up, it looks like. But I always, like I said, I always think of two things. You think of abduction stories and you think of sightings of uso. Those are like the two things in abduction stories can be. I think they're a little harder to prove because when you see something in the sky and you have people from all over a city and different parts of the city saying, hey, I see that. I think that's more. I think people are more inclined to believe that opposed to that they are walking among us because it's such a hard thing to prove because it's usually just one or two witnesses. Whereas the phenomenon of them flying in our airspaces, everyone's seen, especially now with smartphones, it's gotta be a huge uptick in sightings because everyone is walking around with a camera.
- [14:58]
B
Yes, absolutely. And you're right, I think to differentiate, I mean, the abduction accounts are interesting, but sure, in evidential terms, give me the cases where we've got radar data. Give me the cases where we've got Ford looking infrared films. And we have, of course, we've got those US Navy videos, other videos and photos taken from various military platforms. And again, when the top guns who fly, for example, F18 Super Hornets and chase these things, when they say that the speeds, maneuvers and accelerations are orders of magnitude above and beyond what we've got, I sit up and pay attention. I mean, I remember one of the pilots, One of the F18 US Navy pilots was asked about this, this infamous USS Nimitz Tic Tac encounter. He said, you know, he was asked what do you think it was? And he said, I don't know, but I want to fly one.
- [15:56]
A
Yeah, yeah. Because they were. It's almost like they cut on angles not to again, perfect lines in the squares and they fly perfect lines in the air, which we're not even in the right shape when you. There's. There had one. Was the. I'm trying to like, when was the day where you, like you're reading a report was were there times you had to go investigate on the ground? Like, I've got to go to this area. I've got to see this. I've got a, you know, interview. Like, did it get to the point where you were just. Where you were just dealing with a. Because the sightings had to be. Obviously you got to go through what's real and what's not, which in itself, I'm sure is a. Is a task within itself. Because there's got to be so Many reports. But like, was there one where you like a hot investigation or trying to solve it or figure it out?
- [16:44]
B
Well, I think again, the 1993 sightings, I spoke to a lot of the police officers and military personnel who investigated it. And one of the Air Force officers, he described this huge triangular shaped craft flying really slow. He said, you know, counterintuitive because you think UFOs are fast, but 30, 40 miles an hour, approaching the military base, firing a narrow beam of light down at the ground. Then he said, the light beam retracted and this thing shot off to the horizon in an instant with no sonic boom. And I tell you, his voice was almost shaking with emotion. And he said, nick, I've been in the Air Force eight years. I've never seen anything like this in my life.
- [17:31]
A
I mean, that is just unbelievably profound. And then why do you think the stories go away? Because that, to me, I would rather be talking about that, trying to figure that out, than try to figure out how to convince people to be Republicans and Democrats and, you know, arguing over these little things. There is so much stuff going on that. Are we missing real opportunities to better ourselves as a society or to just to learn or focus on other things more important? Because I would think a pilot, is a decorated pilot to say he's never seen anything like that. You would think more people would want to pay attention.
- [18:11]
B
Yeah, I think it has to do. I mean, that's an interesting point. I think we are all too focused, and I get why, but on the everyday, on the ordinary, on the things that we have to deal with. So it's the kids at school, the groceries, the tax bills, all that kind of stuff. The big philosophical, almost existential questions, the sort of, what is consciousness? What happens after we die? Yeah, we can articulate those questions, but they're almost too big for our, our human minds to. It's like trying to grasp infinity. You can talk about it, but we can't really ever understand it.
- [18:50]
A
Right. And I. Because I can't. No, I wouldn't even. I have enough time, just the regular one through ten, let alone infinity. But it just seems like there's such a. There's so many new stories on the horizon. There's so many stories from the past and now coming to light. I know in the United States we've had several sightings where communities have witnessed groups of unidentified ships flying over. And then again, it's always the same thing. When they're gone, they are gone. And there is never a sound, there is never a Boom. There's never, you know, and I think, I think maybe that helps the, the lore too because I think if we had the sighting and you had this loud sound or this loud Hollywood takeoff, you know, I think people would, I think something like that would make people pay more attention. But it just seems like, is it that we've got too busy for UFOs? I know that sounds silly, but like is social media killed the UFO world because we rather pay attention to what somebody, some, somebody's whether they're going to do a flip with an Oreo cookie in their mouth or whatever, opposed to actual intelligent life from another planet passing by our atmosphere.
- [20:06]
B
It might, I mean, yeah, these days it's almost like 24.7content multiple devices. It's like, hey, put, put them down, switch off and look up. You know, there's a whole universe out there.
- [20:20]
A
You know, we had a thing, I was staying in New Jersey for a while, we had a thing with the drones where there was all these reports of massive drones forming all over. And then of course, you know, it was. A lot of people thought there was UFOs. A lot of people thought it was some kind of alien migration over New Jersey. And there was, you know, crazy light shows and stuff and it seemed like everyone was asking questions. It even got to the point where the President had even spoke on it, that they were investigating it. And then all of a sudden it was just gone and it was out of the news cycle in a day. It's like the UFOs disappear but their stories disappear faster. You think that's still part of the design? Can we just, you know, the move. Move past it, move past it.
- [21:01]
B
I think it's human nature. Eventually there comes a point where an unresolved mystery, you know, you. How do you carry that on? Because in a sense you're just asking the same question and there is no definitive answer. But, but I think the New Jersey sightings are interesting and it goes back to the last point you made about, you know, this. If, if there was a sonic boom, maybe we could process it more. If there was a sonic boom with some of these drones, for example, when people see them accelerate away, you could very easily say, well look, that's going to be our tech. Yeah, it's just some next generation aircraft or drone. And look, some of them, sure, some of them are, but I think the New Jersey drones, they're multifactorial. Some of them were commercial and law enforcement drones. Some of them may be military drones, some of them might have been from Russia. And China, which could explain the secrecy. I mean we remember the spy balloon, of course, so this does happen. But some of them may be genuinely unknown, something beyond our comprehension.
- [22:06]
A
Again, because I, I'm always wondered when is it going to happen? And you've had, and I know you've talked about it, you've got three books, Operation Thunder Child, Operation Lightning Strike and the thriller Blood Brothers. And in your books do you talk Blood Brothers, you wrote a thriller, so I'm assuming you added, is that a, a fictional story or is it just you opened up some of the shit that's going to just blow your mind when you read it?
- [22:36]
B
Well, Operation Thunder Child and Operation Lightning Strike, they're science fiction novels that blend a bit of real UFO material with, with just hopefully creative writing. And I still needed to get those books security cleared. Blood Brothers was completely different. That's my latest book and actually there's nothing UFO or paranormal at all. It's, it's, it's just Special Forces.
- [23:02]
A
Oh, cool.
- [23:02]
B
Intelligence community, you know, terrorists. It goes back to the fact that in my 21 years at the Ministry of Defense I did some other things.
- [23:13]
A
Yes. Besides the UFO desk. Yes. And because America, you always want to tie everything in. So you want to think that maybe there was this, you know, that obviously, whether they're here or not, I think they, they, I think they watch us, but they don't. I don't feel they get involved. I feel that's a general, they don't help one side or another. All of a sudden, you know, Chinese jets now look cylinder and disappearing and not like they seem to be very observant. Would you, would you agree that assessment? They seem to just kind of watch. They don't really get involved. If, let's just for what we're seeing with the, the aircrafts, the, just the viewing of the aircraft, we don't have to get into whether they're little green guys walking around the town with us or not. But they do seem to observe and not really do much else, at least from what I can see from the.
- [24:03]
B
No, that's right. And I mean it's impossible to answer this question without sort of saying Star Trek Prime Directive, but it does make a certain sort of sense. I mean if you think of the, the equivalent. Let's suppose we're being interacted with by a non human intelligence that wants to study us and understand us. If they openly land on the White House lawn, well, they're not seeing us at our natural state.
- [24:32]
A
Right.
- [24:32]
B
But like when we do a wildlife.
- [24:34]
A
Document Like David Attenborough, he's observed from several feet and not to get involved, right?
- [24:39]
B
Yes, you'd set up a hide and you'd get right amongst them, but you wouldn't openly show yourself. And then that way you'd see the natural behavior. And that's kind of like what's going on here. And I know that just may be an anthropocentric read across, but it does make some sort of sense, I think.
- [24:57]
A
Well, you have to connect dots. You can't, you know, stretch things. Is that we, what we do know is that there are strange objects in the sky and they seem to study us for a little while. They're not aggressive. That, that much we know. When they're chased, they don't engage, they, you know, they flee. So I would say the observation thing would be the smartest or the, the most plausible theory. You know, the aggressive thing. When you hear people talk like that, it's like there's really nothing substantiated because we would find that out pretty quick, you know, if there was again the Star Trek laser beams and all that. We just don't know. We don't even know how big they are. We don't, you know, we just. Certain things we don't know. And so like I said, one of the shows, I watch Ancient Aliens all the time and I watch Skinwalker Ranch and the one thing about the orbs is skin rise. I realized is, is that size in our dimension, in our terms of, of being could be very different. So when we see these small orbs, that doesn't necessarily mean that these teeny tiny things or they could be, you know, but it's. So we try to apply our mindset to what they could be. And I think that's a mistake. I think because we can only gather information from what we know. It's like that thing where you can only dream about things you've experienced. You can't dream about things you haven't done yet. I think that has a lot to do with when we're looking at these aircrafts, trying to figure it out, trying to make some sense. When we do see them. A lot of the human eras, you want them to make them as human as possible because it's a lot easier to say hello to somebody who kind of looks like you. Although we've not only are the best at treating each other how we look alike, but I think that would be a lot easier for a lot of the skeptics of the alien world is if they had some more human Things other than what we're seeing. Because it seems to me very, very spherical. Like very shapes, Right? Very. It's not anything close to what we do.
- [26:53]
B
No. And of course the problem with all of this is we can only like, like your point about, you know, you can't dream something that you don't know that isn't, is a tangible thing that you've experienced. And we, when it comes to UFOs, we can only view the whole phenomenon through the, the, the culture, the knowledge, the belief system that we already have. And, and when we say things like UFO or orb, those are just words, they're labels that we stick on something that may be a billion years ahead of our comprehension.
- [27:28]
A
Right. If. Are there any movies that you have seen that you think have depicted or books that you would recommend to someone that kind of depicts what you would say, the alien or the UFO phenomenon. If someone was looking for research or you know, without getting too, you know, wildly Hollywood out of it, is there anything that sticks out to you with all your experience?
- [27:56]
B
The two favorite sci fi movies that I think capture, you know, what might really happen in terms of the questions and just the unknowable nature of it is. Contact is the first one.
- [28:11]
A
I was going to say that. Yes.
- [28:13]
B
And Arrival is the second. And like all good science fiction, what it really does is it makes us think, think about ourselves. And the question is, how would we respond to something that may be beyond our comprehension? I mean, I go back to the point that in a universe nearly 14 billion years old, there might be civilizations a billion years ahead of us. And if you think how far we've come, say in the last 200 years, from horse and buggy to stealth fighters and space probes, what would a billion.
- [28:47]
A
Year technology gap look like for what, 70,000 years? We couldn't fig to tie a rock to a stick. Then all of a sudden we did. Next thing you know we got an, we have a, a spear. And then the spear turns to an iPad. I mean it's just when you think about. And again, what made us tie the rock to the stick, I guess is the question, what changed it? Was it a visit? Like, hey, try this, you have thumbs. Try this. Was it before that? But yeah, that is such a great point. The a billion year head start. Even up 10,000 year head start, you know, to where, where we are. But to have space and then to be able. Because the more we learn about space, the more it is better to be small in space than it is to be big. So, you know, cutting Warm home, like space travel, like all that stuff to us, we're just kind of on the precipice of it. So, you know, maybe that's the other. We're getting attention. Maybe we're getting close, you know, and they're like, you know, maybe we got a bad rep. Maybe people got a bad rep in the universe, and we're. We're locked away from everyone because we don't know how to act when we get someplace. Like, I would believe that. I would believe that. Like, I don't know, whatever you do, don't bring a human to your planet. Just. They overpopulate, they eat everything up. They don't get along. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe we're on punishment.
- [30:03]
B
Yeah, I mean, I have actually heard the phrase prison planet theory. Yes, that is.
- [30:11]
A
Please tell me, please. Prison planet theory. Thousands. That's what it is. It's gotta be. I've never heard of it.
- [30:19]
B
Or, you know, that's the idea that. I mean, some of it's almost spiritual. The idea that souls get reincarnated down here that have done bad things before and don't let us out. But I guess the more physical version is closer to what you said. The idea that. Any extraterrestrials looking at planet Earth, I mean, a few decades ago, when we developed atomic weapons and then used them in. In anger, our cosmic neighbors might have said to themselves, oh, the kids have found the matches.
- [30:52]
A
Yes.
- [30:52]
B
You know, we don't want this lot out in the wider universe. Keep an eye on them.
- [30:58]
A
I think maybe that's what's going down. I really think that's going down. So, okay, so you. When. When did your new book come out?
- [31:06]
B
Blood Brothers? Gosh, I forget. I think that was the most recent one I. I wrote. I think it was about 2017 or 18, something like that. Like I say, that one's nothing to do with UFOs, nothing paranormal. It's just. It's just guns. And.
- [31:23]
A
I mean, people forget. And I want to make sure you basically were working for very similar. Our FBI, our Department of Justice. So you were seeing all kinds of things, but in the military sense.
- [31:37]
B
Well, closer to the dod.
- [31:38]
A
Dod, yes. Yeah.
- [31:41]
B
And so things like counterterrorism, but also military policing. I got a couple of short trips out to places like Kosovo and Iraq. Pardon me. You know, so very interesting. As a civilian, I. I had a fascinating career, but, you know, nothing could quite beat UFOs. I mean, that's. That's the. Hey, look, I've got the bragging rights at parties, when people say, you literally.
- [32:10]
A
Sat at the desk, the official desk for the UFOs now, as when you like, what's your next? Like, what are you thinking about doing next? What's next for you? I mean, because this, the UFO thing is people are talking about who were never talking about it before. It's something now that you can talk about where someone's not going to roll their eyes like that. Everyone has a story or they'll like, oh, yeah, I read something here and there. It's become more of the dinner table, an American expression that you could talk about the dinner table now, and no one's going to stop eating and say, hey, like, save that nonsense for somewhere else. You've seen the legitimacy of a part of your work coming to where everybody wants. So someone like yourself who has this vast experience, are you looking to hold classes or put out another book about your experiences to where the young, you know, because it's like a new treasure chest. It's the studying the stars and people maybe will start studying, see how the universe works and stuff. Like, it's a tremendous, I think, treasure trove of, of education for especially our kids, you know, young people to get involved in what's going on in the universe.
- [33:18]
B
I do like. I mean, I have done some children's shows before and. And that's. That's kind of interesting. I'm not sure I'm going to write more books, but I am in the fortunate position of. Because of my government background in this subject. The mainstream media does come to me when stories break. And I will continue. I mean, at the moment, of course, we've got congressional engagement on this in the Senate and the House. And one of the great things about it is it is bipartisan, and that's good. There are going to be more congressional hearings. There are more whistleblowers waiting to come forward. The newly formed Task Force on the Declassification of Federal Secrets is looking at this. And if I can really use my mainstream media platform to really serve as a communicator on this issue, to keep it in the public eye, to keep it in the spotlight, which is where it deserves to be, then I think that's how I can best use my time and best contribute to this.
- [34:23]
A
Now, I'm sure you've gotten. That's amazing. And you really need to continue to do that because I think the more we know about what's going on, not just on our planet, but in our stars above, everyone's is better, more enlightened, more. Better conversations Too. But what do you. What is. Because I'm sure you've got some. Some tall tales or some wild stories of UFOs. Was it. Was there ever one that wasn't necessarily true, that was just unbelievably wild to you, that you would never forget? Like, when it came across your desk, a lot of times you had to interview some of these people. Was there ever just some wild one where you were just like, sir.
- [35:02]
B
There was a funny one. This old guy phoned up to say that he had seen a craft and he'd seen a ladder descend from the craft and strange figures in spacesuits come down and there was smoke all around. And. And he. He was worried that this was the, like some sort of spearhead of an alien invasion or something like that. And I investigated and I found out that what had actually happened was that there was a night exercise by special forces coming, and they'd flown a helicopter, but there was low fog or mist, so there was just this vague shape. And then they rappelled down this rope. And they were all wearing, of course, night vision goggles, and they had all their kit. And this. This old boy had thought that this was an alien invasion, but in fact, it was the British sas.
- [36:07]
A
Well, he wasn't completely wrong. He just.
- [36:09]
B
He wasn't.
- [36:10]
A
He wasn't, he wasn't.
- [36:11]
B
And it was kind of a fun reminder that there are some strange things to be seen, and if you're not familiar with them and if you see them under unusual conditions, it will really make you wonder. And, you know, that obviously was a bit of fun. And. And in the course of those three years on the UFO desk, there was some serious stuff, but there was some fun stuff, too. Of course.
- [36:37]
A
Now, I. You don't have to answer this. You don't want to. Has anyone ever, like, hey, take a look at this picture of, you know, from other departments and stuff, you know, where you have to work with other departments. Because I guess the ones that supposedly dealt with the bodies, if there was. Because, you know, there's those saying that there was crashed UFOs, that they. Was there ever. Like, they're like, hey, I got to show you these classified pictures, but I just can't, you know. Or like, you. Were you ever close to, like, seeing actual footage of a extraterrestrial being?
- [37:05]
B
Well, we had something called the alien autopsy video. I don't know if you remember that from years ago, but that turned out to be a hoax. Of course, then, you know, we had. From our own Air Force jets, we had Gun camera footage dating back to the 50s, but we never had what I would characterize to people as a smoking gun. We never had. And now maybe. Maybe there was another secret department like, you know, above. I mean, we did have some photos that we couldn't explain, and we sent those. When we got photos and videos, we tended. We sent them to intelligence community imagery analysts. And sometimes they would come back and say, hey, this is not an aircraft. It's not a missile. It's not a drone. It's not an airship. It's not. Not a weather balloon. We have no idea what it is. We have no idea how it even stays in the sky in terms of energy, propulsion system, the aerodynamics. So those cases were interesting, but sadly, no. Absolute spaceship in a hangar, smoking gun. Not that I ever saw.
- [38:20]
A
Okay. Yeah, I would imagine if we did, if we would have saw it, it would have been. It would have been out already. So when you let me. I got some. My producers always want to give me some, like, speed bullet questions. Let me see if they have anything good. Let's see if they have a good one in here for you. Because they're. They're real excited. And I was like, we're talking about UFOs today because everyone wants to complain about government, and that's the last thing I want to talk about. I'd rather talk about something fun like this. Let's see here. All my stuff's sticking together. Here we go. Okay. All right. Here's a good one. Kind of. All right. After writing a whole book with. With two of the principal witnesses, what is the one unanswered question that keeps you hooked on UFOs, although I feel like you kind of answered that. It's just the. The great unknown, or is it just waiting for that smoking gun? You're still. Are you still pursuing it?
- [39:18]
B
I want the smoking gun. But if we are dealing with a civilization or multiple civilizations, you know, millions, billion years ahead of us, I want to know, what do you know that we don't know? So, for example, one of the big things is what's the secret of viable interstellar travel that will take humanity to the stars?
- [39:41]
A
Yeah. Or back and forth from each other's computer. I think it's probably what most Americans would probably use it for. Okay, so here's a good one with your own view. Were you a skeptic first and kind of it grew on you, or have you still kind of maintained the same. So were you shifted after your time, your three years there, where you completely shifted to where, like, I. I think something's there, but I'm not sure but. Or like, you're pretty much. There's just phenomenons in the world that we don't quite understand yet. Or are you hooked that there? No, there's something out there. There is intelligence out there.
- [40:21]
B
My views definitely evolved. I started as a skeptic, and now I would say I'm a believer that there's something out there, but I don't know what it is. I mean, everyone has their different theories, ranging from extraterrestrials through to time travelers, demons, something from another dimension. All I will say is, I think it's something other.
- [40:45]
A
Right.
- [40:46]
B
I don't know what it is, and I'm very suspicious of anyone who sits there and says, hey, I know exactly what it is and I've got all the answers.
- [40:53]
A
I'm glad you said that. I cannot stand absolutism on subjects that we don't know, even in. In general, because there's always something new you're going to learn. But when someone says, yes, there's three species of aliens, and there's the reptiles, there's the grays, there's whites, and. And there's this and that, and I'm like, where did you. How do you know? Well, I just know, you know, and it's just. Or, you know, are they. Or there's enough. That's why I don't really, you know, because the abduction stuff, it's just hard to prove, you know, it's just when someone has a story. In this day and age, everyone has a story. Oh, here you go. What is one question about UFOs that people never ask but you wish they would?
- [41:37]
B
Oh, interesting one. I think the question I would ask that doesn't get asked is how do the witnesses feel about it emotionally? Because I think you said something earlier about the craft, and we're very focused on the craft, but the phenomenon interacts with people. I mean, there's two sides to the equation, and we don't consider the human side of the equation often enough. And, I mean, some people react with fear and panic, but others with awe and wonder. And I. I ask myself, is that just the differences between people's. I. I don't know, their. Their character, their personality, or is it something deeper that comes from the phenomenon itself? So I. I think the question that I would ask is not so much. I mean, yeah, you want to know the shape of the craft, the speed, all of that. But I want to. I want to ask that psychiatrist question, you know?
- [42:45]
A
Right, yeah.
- [42:45]
B
How did that make you feel?
- [42:47]
A
Well, because. Oh, one of the things, and this is a little. Recently I've been reading up because there's this new theory that certain parts of, of humans still have alien DNA. So I guess the idea was that our primary, our primate ancestor was bred with an extraterrestrial which gave us modern day humans our, our intellect or whatever. And then of course human beings I guess overthrew and they took over and they populated the. So there's a part of human beings that have evolved to be the more primate version of them. And then there's this other argument. There's a, a group of humans that have more the alien DNA. So one of the things was when they see ships, if you have the alien DNA, you have a sense of calm, a genetic, like, hey, I'm getting ready to go home. And if you don't, you fear it because you're genetically supposed to fear that it was a whole thing that they were, they were taking me to and I was like, well, I guess that would be support the theory that they helped us. You know, they were the reason why we are the way. And now they're coming back to observe where we're. We're at. That to me seems wild. That's a pretty wild thing. But that seems to get, it's a lot of, I guess the kids call it tick tock. Is that what it's called? Tick tock? There's a lot of that on tick tock that we, we are all bred with aliens originally of ever have a report of that? Like a, you know, like a deadbeat dad alien showed up to check on his kid and he double parked his UFO outside the house. Like, I mean some of those wildest theories that are out there. How do you. Because I imagine every theory if, if I'm hearing it, people got it. You got to get dossiers and books and letters and all kinds of information. Like you got to investigate this year. How do you sift through all that on top of the fact? Do you think there's, do you think they were here before, helped us left and now are coming back? Do you think that's a reasonable theory?
- [44:47]
B
Well, I don't discount ancient astronaut theory. Like I say the idea that if we were visited in our prehistory, sure our ancestors would have perceived that as the gods have come down. I think the idea that there's something in our DNA that's part alien and they tinkered with us, that's personally, that's a bridge too far for me because I think now with having unraveled the human genome and sequence the DNA and all that, I think if, if there.
- [45:17]
A
Was, I mean it would come up.
- [45:19]
B
Yeah, there's junk DNA, but that's not the same thing. I think if there was something there that just didn't fit, we would have heard about it from scientists now. So that, like I say that's a little too much for me. But you know, never say never. I guess. You know, science is going to be the key to understanding this and that's why we need more scientists involved in this subject. And look, if, if there are theories out there like that, let's test them and if they can be easily debunked, which I think this one can.
- [45:54]
A
Yeah, with genetic testing it should be fairly easy. I mean we're like 13. There's only a few chromosomal difference between us and chimps. So you would think if we were spliced with aliens it would be a far greater distance just, just going off simple, you know, DNA strands. That's an excellent point. I have to remember the next time I get hit with the, where half the, half the planet is aliens and half the planet isn't. I like, well, let's just do any DNA test that should take because that would show up immediately. That'd be fairly easy. It's like looking for Bigfoot. If you check the hair, you know, it should be, it should be an easy thing. Although unlike Bigfoot, we do have amazing photos of these, of these aircrafts and these spaceships. The other stuff is speculation and it's good, we're talking about it and it's good that. But I'm with you. I think that's a bridge too far for me. I do think it's possible that I do believe the ancient alien astronauts things probably. It's just the temples are just really hard to ignore that there's so many. And again you, you said it beautifully. You could not fit a dollar bill under in between these blocks that we don't even have machines big enough to move like we just. And these are being done. It's not like they ripped down the entire forest to do it. You know, it's like they, these things were built in civilizations so you would think just to, they would have to tear up the entire landscape just to build one of these temples with these giant stones. I mean you would think. It's not like they could just drag it. I mean obviously we weren't there. But that to me, when it comes to the ancient alien astronauts, that to me Is the biggest thing is when you see the artwork. I think that's pretty compelling evidence that we did have a helping hand. Because we can't recreate it.
- [47:42]
B
No. And some people will say, oh well, maybe these blocks were moved on wooden rollers. Well try, try putting a 750 metric ton stone block on and see what happens.
- [47:58]
A
Take a 300 pound cement blocks and put them on wood rollers to see how your afternoon is. Just again, that to me is when you look at history and you see what we're seeing now with evidence, I think when we look at that, I think it's safe to say that there is something out there. And I'm with you. I refuse to also. I don't want to ruin it. I don't want to think like oh man, it's, you know, I know they're, they're green with tentacles or whatever the. You have all these theories on what they are and then you actually one day it all comes out and you'll be like, oh man, I was so wrong. I wasn't even. I rather leave it open and be, be surprised by whatever it is. I have a feeling we, whatever it is, we have no imagination for it. Absolutely. Like we have no idea what's going to be. Like just look in the ocean. So many different forms of life. We have no idea what was, you know, what what could be or what it is, how small, how big it might be. Vape might have. Be. Be completely. We don't know what evolution is. It could all be electricity. We just don't know.
- [49:00]
B
No. And I'm always wary of saying there's just one answer to this we might be dealing with. I mean look, in the universe, the idea that there's just one other life form out there is probably as, as ridiculously small in terms of statistical probability is the idea that we're alone. And so there could be lots of things out there. Some of it could be biological life like us, but a lot of it could be machine intelligence. I mean other civilizations. If there are like I say these civilizations that have been going for a billion years, what would Their AI would.
- [49:37]
A
Be a lot better than our AI. Or they became it. Yeah, maybe that. Oh they fused with AI Maybe they are AI. They could be. See we just another theory. It's possible. The team's all excited now because now they think that AI is aliens taking over the world. You know what? That would make more sense than little green guys with pistols showing up like, that's why I love talking about science and stuff. That it is a science because we have, we, we have the, the structures and we have the, we have the videotapes of the flying and we have the experts in the fields who have talked about it. So this form of it I think is, is very real. It's just, it's tough to cut through the other stuff. And I think you do an excellent job of that. And I just, you're very, you come, you're a very patient man. Does that help you a lot in dealing with. Is a very passionate subject because a lot of experts in this field are very eccentric and you're very room temperature. You know, you're very like cool like well, hey, no, I'm just going to stick with the facts and what I do know.
- [50:58]
B
Yeah, I mean part of that is probably because I'm a Brit, but part of that is probably because I am ex government. But you're right, a lot of people in this field are very excitable. I mean I sure I do get passionate about it. I mean what could be more exciting than the possibility of finding an other life, whatever form that is. But I try to stay grounded too. I try to remind myself that 99% of all of this is going to turn out to be misidentifications or hoaxes and things like that. So yeah, I think I try to approach it from an evenhanded view. But like you said earlier, when you attack somebody's beliefs and that's what you're doing, whether it's conventional religion or whether it's belief in UFOs you are attacking, it's almost like you're attacking them.
- [51:53]
A
Right.
- [51:54]
B
And people are so entrenched that that's why I tread carefully.
- [51:59]
A
Well, you have to because you're told one thing your entire life and then somebody goes well actually this happened. And it's a lot harder to let go of what is what keeps us comfortable. I guess, you know, you're mentally comfortable, you know this and this are trues and also at the same time it allows you, you have certain amount of control. I guess when you know certain things for a fact and then for them that control, they lose that control. And maybe that's, maybe we answer our own question is why it's not so talked about for long periods of time when there is a story because it does make certain groups would have then question their entire belief system, which can be dangerous as we've unfortunately seen in this day and age right now where original thought is not always the most popular thing in the room. But when it comes to, to UFOs and Simon's aid. It's definitely been original. So just again thank you so much for joining me today. And where can people find you if they want to learn more about these besides ancient aliens? Check them out on there. He's got three awesome books. One is about non alien stuff but I'm sure it's a good, exciting read. And so where can people find you?
- [53:17]
B
My website is nickpope.net that's got some basic information about my government background in UFOs but my my day to day social media presence where I post things that catch my eye and comment on stories. The platform I use most is X and my handle on there is ickpope mod standing of course for Ministry of Defense.
- [53:44]
A
Yes, as you should. He's our Minister of Defense.
- [53:47]
B
Why not?
- [53:48]
A
And you have, you have slated. Sir. And just one more real thing before I let you go. If somebody sees something, how should they, who should they report to? Or what's typically the best thing to do if someone does see something? If you do see something in the sky, you record it. You don't want to, you know, call the local police department and freak them out or yourself like where does somebody go if they do have information they want to share or you know, if they've, if they've witnessed some of the phenomenon in the sky.
- [54:21]
B
If they're in the military then they can go to the Pentagon's unit called Arrow. So just aaro mil. If they're civilians they can go to a civilian group like the mutual UFO network mufon.com but I would also say to people, contact the media, get the story out. I mean the media love photos and particularly films of this. So don't keep your story to yourself. As the old saying goes, if you see something, say something awesome.
- [54:55]
A
If you see a ufo, please say something. All right, well, amen. It's been an absolute pleasure. I have to have you back soon. Appreciate your time sir.
- [55:02]
B
Thank you very much. I've enjoyed this conversation.
- [55:05]
A
Thank you. Me, myself as well. All right, now it's time for Tyrus's coaching. Tip. Tip. When you go out to eat, tip men. This is directly to you. And you should only go out to eat if you have money to tip. You understand? Think in your head. I need to have 50% for a tip. So if you're going to take your lady friend or whatever your situation is, you're going to take them out for a date, think at least 50% for your tip. If you have twos and fuse and you can't afford to go out. It is much better. Much better, fellas, to tell her straight up, like, look, I'm a little short on cash. Can we. Can we chill at the apartment tonight? Do not take a girl out to an expensive restaurant knowing you can't afford to pay for it, or you're going to be in the negative and. Or your card might clear. My not clear. Because here's the thing. You're going to be stressed the whole dinner, and she's going to see it in your face and your eyes that you can't afford this. And then when she orders stuff, you're going to be moody, and then you're going to order less stuff. Then you're going to have an argument. And on top of the argument, you're also going to have negative checkbook. So then you're going to be broke and in an argument, so you're better off. Fellas, do not go out. Do not take your lady out unless you have 50% of the tent. Why you say 50%? So if you take her out for, let's say, steaks, right, Steaks. Whatever you're thinking, probably buck 50 meal, probably 150 bucks for a day. Is that what the kids do today? About 150? Yeah, about 150. So make sure you have 250. So you can. You can. Because here's the deal. Women look at you when you tip. It's a chance for individual achievement and at the same time for that place to want you to come back. I tip so I can come back. So 20%. No. If you tip anywhere from. From 30 to 40 when you're starting, they will remember you. And the next time you take your girl out, when you go to that restaurant, guess what? Your. Your table will be ready. When you call for the reservation, they will bump somebody. And she might even say, like, oh, wow, Tyrus. My wife used to do this all the time. She'd be like, wow, how much did you tip? And I always say, I always tip double. And they'll say, why? Because I tip so I can come back. I'm like, wow. And you come off dignified, thinking ahead, successful. Maybe not. Maybe that's all I had. Maybe I'm gonna be sandwiching it leftovers the rest of the week. She don't know. But this particular time, I come off like an alpha man. A man with a plan and a dude in control, and those are very attractive to women. And they. And you have your. You have your dinner, and then the waitress or the waiter is going to remember you and it's just going to build things up. And pretty soon you go to three or four different restaurants. Don't go out all the time. It's not good. It's not healthy to eat all the time anyways. But that's a different coaching tip. But when you do go out, do it right. Do a full regalia. They'll remember you and she will be impressed. So make sure you got at least 50% tips in your pocket before you take her out to eat. That's your coaching tip. Enough said.