Get your tickets for the Plant Cunning Conference here: Plant Cunning Conference – In-Person in New York – July 24-26, 2026Today on the show, Isaac & AC welcome David Holmgren, co-originator of the Permaculture concept.In this episode, David describes life at Melliodora in Central Victoria with three semi-autonomous households sharing work and produce, and recounts how he came to the “plant path” through plant ID, foraging, and early research for Permaculture One. He tells the story of meeting Bill Mollison in 1974 and how the idea of agriculture functioning like a forest became a seed of permaculture, while reflecting on Mollison’s charisma and difficulty. The conversation explores holistic thinking versus reductionism, DIY self-reliance, cycles of skill loss and renewal, COVID’s impact on interest in permaculture and RetroSuburbia, “enlightened self-interest,” energy descent and relocalization, household-scale resilience including health capacity, and where to find Holmgren’s essays and websites.

02:11 Meet David Holmgren

03:47 Finding the Plant Path

06:04 Chance Meeting with Bill Mollison

08:15 Permaculture Seed Idea

12:12 Working with a Charismatic Genius

15:31 Patterns vs Practice

21:13 DIY Skills and Tasmania Culture

24:27 Cycles of Self Reliance

28:17 COVID and RetroSuburbia Spike

30:07 Enlightened Self Interest Explained

37:29 Humans as Keystone Species

38:26 Hierarchy and Elite Corruption

40:35 Predators and Power

41:25 Fossil Fuel Hierarchy

42:42 Globalists vs Sovereigntists

44:11 Household Resilience Basics

45:35 Health as Weak Link

47:44 Bigger Households Work

52:17 Household Beats Consensus

55:23 Food Growing Mindset

59:09 Jack of all trades, Master of One

01:03:06 Why Intentional Communities Fail

01:06:49 Brown Tech Uncertainty

01:08:32 Tower of Babel Reality

01:12:35 Long Descent Balance

01:16:29 Essays and Resources

01:19:30 Final Thanks and Wrap