S1E1Full:We Is Us

Summary

Pluribus: The Official Podcast

Episode: S1E1 – “We Is Us”
Date: November 7, 2025
Host: Chris McCaleb
Guests: Vince Gilligan (creator/writer/director), Rhea Seehorn (star), Trina Siopi (Co-EP), Jen Carroll (writer/Co-EP)

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OVERVIEW:

The inaugural episode of the Pluribus podcast pulls listeners deep into the creative heart of Apple’s new original series, “Pluribus.” Host and editor Chris McCaleb is joined by creator Vince Gilligan, star Rhea Seehorn, and key members of the production team for a candid, unscripted roundtable on the making of Episode 101, “We Is Us.” This installment covers the origins of the show, character evolution, the technical and emotional intricacies of key scenes, and the profound collaboration powering the production.

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MAIN THEMES & DISCUSSION POINTS

1. The Genesis of Pluribus

Timestamps: 01:40–04:25

• Vince Gilligan traces the idea back to lunch-break daydreams during “Better Call Saul,” imagining a series driven by shifting wish-fulfillment dynamics.
• Originally envisioned as a male protagonist whose every whim is granted, Vince realized early “there’s no drama in happiness” (03:22, Gilligan).
  • Quote: “There’s no drama in happiness. None whatsoever. Which is why we’ve kind of got our hand, one arm tied behind our back on this show.” (03:22, Gilligan)
• Rhea Seehorn’s work inspired Vince to flip the protagonist’s gender and write to her strengths.
  • “Why does it have to be a male protagonist? Why not a female protagonist? And why not Ray?” (03:20, Gilligan)

2. Setting and the Albuquerque Legacy

Timestamps: 04:25–06:00

• Gilligan’s decision to return to Albuquerque after “Breaking Bad” and “Saul” stemmed from deep affection for the city and established crew. He chose to embrace rather than conceal the location, despite the risks of fans associating it with previous works.
• Transition to showcasing a “totally different side of Albuquerque.”
  • “I wanted to work with the same crew. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” (05:01, Gilligan)

3. Creating Carol: Differentiating from Kim Wexler

Timestamps: 05:53–09:14

• Rhea Seehorn discusses reinvention, with practical and aesthetic considerations around Carol’s hair and physicality, symbolizing her departure from Kim Wexler.
  • “We knew going in that it would be a lot of shoots where I am supposed to have not done my hair, maybe not showered… And with longer hair you can get into some real predicaments.” (06:00, Seehorn)
• The “movie star entrance” at Barnes & Noble was designed to subtly signal character differences—no trademark ponytail, a nod that “we’re not in Kansas anymore.”
  • Quote: “It is definitely a new character. It is totally a different day because the ponytail is gone.” (08:01, Seehorn)
  • Memorable Moment: Reflection on how shots were framed to emphasize Carol’s transformation (07:21–08:56).

4. Directing Large Scenes & The Challenge of Background Actors

Timestamps: 09:14–13:00

• The team breaks down the complexities of orchestrating the “othered” crowd scenes—technical, logistical, and emotional.
  • “The scariest parts of pre-production for me personally, because we had big crowd scenes...the more people I have to direct, the less in control I feel.” (09:41, Gilligan)
• Choreographer Nito Lariosa and assistant directors played crucial roles. Extras auditioned and rehearsed specifically for their parts, with even minor lines and backstories sketched for authenticity.
• Emphasis on performance—finding the right in-between, “how scary do these people look? How passive do they look? …it’s very difficult to passively look pleasant without looking crazy, lobotomized, high as a kite.” (11:06, Seehorn)

5. On-Screen Chemistry & Emotional Depth

Timestamps: 13:00–20:24

• Rhea Seehorn and Miriam’s chemistry as Carol and Helen is unpacked, including the now-notorious “escalator scene.”
  • Quote: “What chemistry looks like… it’s showing up to set, doing all your prep and then being delighted to have a curveball thrown at you by your scene partner.” (16:46, Seehorn)
• The team highlights the necessity for the depth of emotion in Carol and Helen’s relationship, especially poignant given Helen’s fate.
  • “You have to feel that loss. And you do.” (20:24, Carroll)

6. Crafting Grief and Repetition in Performance

Timestamps: 20:34–25:18

• Rhea elaborates technical techniques for sustained emotional performance—locating pain in the body, mixing memory and physicality for repeatability, and keeping the on-set atmosphere light between heavy scenes.
  • Quote: “For me...I’ll then give myself some markers. One of the things I’ll do is ask myself where the pain lives...I find that strangely to be more repeatable as the instigator.” (21:44, Seehorn)
• Shooting out of sequence and sustaining believability in successive takes is detailed.

7. Directing Approach – Protecting Performance

Timestamps: 24:42–26:32

• Vince explains directing techniques to protect actors’ emotional bandwidth—starting with close-ups, saving the most emotionally intense shots for the beginning of the day, and allowing collaboration on character motivation shifts in key scenes.

8. Realism, Extras, and “Others” Choreography

Timestamps: 28:16–33:03

• Discussion of the nuanced evolution from robotic group unison to a more organic, slightly out-of-sync “othered” crowd for a “human, not alien” effect.
  • Quote: “People speaking too much in perfect unison is actually not pleasing… you need them not so perfectly in unison.” (31:03, Gilligan)
• Respect for extras: Rhea frequently rallies them, expressing the importance of their presence:
  • “I told them… you are acting. They are acting in a synchronized way and as a unit, but they are individual people. They are not robotics.” (29:34, Seehorn)

9. Science, Accuracy & Advisors

Timestamps: 33:03–37:49

• Positive-pressure “hot” suits were constructed and operated for realism, requiring fans, special mics, and set technicalities to enable authentic performance.
• Science advisors Aaron McDonald (lab accuracy) and Brian Svoboda (VLA) provided vital expertise—even insisting on authentic lab protocols, which led to rewrites and use of real scientists and technicians as background actors.
  • Quote: “When we get things technically accurate… it never has harmed us. It has always paid dividends.” (35:44, Gilligan)

10. Humor and Tonal Shifts

Timestamps: 37:49–41:18

• The episode's conclusion shifts to humor—Davis Taffler’s Chiron and the absurd “we’re not aliens” TV moment, providing a release from preceding tension.
  • “How elastic a story can be in terms of how dark can you go...and then how quickly can you shift gears?” (38:44, Gilligan)
  • Peter Bergman played Taffler live via connected sound stages—a technical and performative feat.
  • Memorable Moment: Peter Bergman’s live performance as Davis Taffler, achieved by linking two sound stages and clever use of earwigs (40:44–41:03).

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NOTABLE QUOTES

• “There’s no drama in happiness. None whatsoever.” – Vince Gilligan (03:22)
• “Why does it have to be a male protagonist? Why not a female protagonist? And why not Ray?” – Vince Gilligan (03:20)
• “It is definitely a new character. It is totally a different day because the ponytail is gone.” – Rhea Seehorn (08:01)
• “It’s very difficult to passively look pleasant without looking crazy, lobotomized, high as a kite.” – Rhea Seehorn (11:06)
• “What chemistry looks like… it’s showing up to set, doing all your prep and then being delighted to have a curveball thrown at you by your scene partner.” – Rhea Seehorn (16:46)
• “For me...I’ll then give myself some markers…Where the pain lives.” – Rhea Seehorn (21:44)
• “When we get things technically accurate… it never has harmed us. It has always paid dividends.” – Vince Gilligan (35:44)
• “How elastic a story can be in terms of how dark can you go...and then how quickly can you shift gears?” – Vince Gilligan (38:44)

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MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• Reflections on shooting the Barnes & Noble “movie star entrance” for Carol (07:21–08:56)
• Warm stories from set: the emotionally and technically challenging escalator scene with Miriam (13:00–15:30)
• Rhea’s speeches rallying background actors, emphasizing community and respect (29:07–29:41)
• Technical breakdown of the creation and operation of positive-pressure suits (33:03–34:30)
• Live “TV” coupling with Peter Bergman from another soundstage (40:42–41:03)

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TIMESTAMPS FOR KEY SEGMENTS

• 01:40 – Series conception explained
• 05:53 & 08:01 – Carol’s physical transformation and symbolic “movie star” entrance
• 09:14 & 11:06 – Choreographing “the others” and their emotional resonance
• 13:00 – Carol & Helen’s chemistry, escalator scene break-down
• 21:44 – Rhea’s methods for repeatable, powerful grief performances
• 24:42 – Directorial approach to safeguarding actor emotions
• 29:34 – Rhea advocating for respect for extras
• 31:03 – Finding the right “synchronicity” for the “others”
• 33:03 – Realism: constructing and operating lab suits
• 35:44 – Value of technical accuracy
• 38:44 – Comic tonal pivots, Davis Taffler’s TV climax
• 40:42 – Behind the scenes: live TV performance technical setup

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FINAL THOUGHTS:

The debut of the Pluribus podcast sets an exciting tone for the companion series: a passionate, intimate, highly collaborative look into the making of a boundary-pushing show. The episode brims with stories from the set, thoughtful details about the craft, and an undercurrent of camaraderie and respect that threads cast, crew, and even background actors into a united creative fabric.

Best for:

• Listeners craving an in-depth, candid breakdown of how a prestige drama is built from concept through performance and post
• Fans of Vince Gilligan and Rhea Seehorn eager for untold behind-the-scenes stories and personal insights
• Anyone fascinated by the practical and emotional artistry behind television production

Don’t miss the next installment after you watch the next episode on Apple TV.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. If you watched Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul, you might have heard the insider podcast we did for nearly every episode, going all the way back to season two of Breaking Bad. And a huge shout out to my mentor, the brilliant editor Kelly Dixon, for starting those podcasts and pioneering this particular format. This isn't a recap show. Instead, we favor a freewheeling, unscripted discussion about the making of each episode. This inaugural podcast is about episode 101, entitled we is Us, written and directed by Vince Gilligan. So, without further ado, let's dive right in with our guests, creator and writer, director of this episode, Vince Gilligan.

[B]

Hey, Chris.

[A]

Co executive producer, Trina Siopi.

[C]

Hi, Chris.

[A]

Writer and co executive producer, Jen Carroll.

[D]

Hey there.

[A]

And Carol Sturka herself, Ray Seehorn.

[E]

Hello. Happy to be here.

[A]

Welcome to the show, guys.

[E]

Thanks. Hello.

[A]

Also with us today on the mix board on the ones and twos is our assistant editor, Nicholas Tsai. Nicholas, how you doing?

[E]

Good. How are you?

[A]

Great. And, yeah, this is a homegrown operation here, and this is our first episode, and there's a ton to talk about, but, yeah, it's been. It's been quite a. It's quite a journey to get to this point to actually have it done.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

Yeah. Vince, what was the kernel like? The first kernel of the. Like. When. When did you start thinking about it?

[B]

Well, we are recording this in the room that we use as a writer's room for Pluribus, and prior to that it was the writers room we. We used on Better call Saul and 8 to 10. It might have been almost a decade ago, but at least eight years ago, we were doing Better Call Saul here. And we would take lunch breaks and I'd walk around the neighborhood, and I started kind of daydreaming about this idea that became Pluribus. This was long before I had a title for it. And it started off as a wish fulfillment idea in that it started off it was about a guy, it was about a male character, and something happens in the world. And I hadn't figured that part out yet, but everyone suddenly is very solicitous and will do anything for him. And I thought, this will be fun, man. He can do all kinds of fun stuff. And the only limitation is your imagination. But then it got Kind of porny, kind of quick. And also, you know what? The thing that really threw me off track for a while is I started to think it's a little like Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie and those two shows. It's so weird. Both the husbands in those shows or the husband and one the boyfriend in the other. They're so crabby and stunted and like, oh, Jeannie, don't do that. Don't send us to, you know, Paris, France. Don't, you know, whatever. And Darren, Unbewitched is the same way. He's like, don't use your magic, Sam. Don't. And as a kid, even I thought, what is wrong with these guys? Even before I was pubescent, I was like, what is wrong with these guys?

[E]

I did, too.

[B]

And the reason is, from a writer's point of view, and it took me a while to figure this out, is there's no drama in happiness. None whatsoever. Which is why we've kind of got our hand, one arm tied behind our back on this show. There's no drama in it. I started to realize you can't make a story just about someone getting every wish fulfilled because it'd be fun until the first commercial break, and then it'd get boring. And the other thing I thought was, again, about eight or 10 years ago, we were doing Better Call Saul, and the lovely Miss Ray Seehorn sitting across from her here was coming to all of our attention as to how great she is. And I started to think, I want to write something for Ray when this is done. I want to work again with her after this is over, however long this show will go. And luckily, it went six seasons. But. So I started to think, well, why does it have to be a male protagonist? Why not a female protagonist? And why not Rey? But she probably can't be so happy. And that led to this.

[A]

So it's set in Albuquerque, or, you know, where Carol lives in Albuquerque. What was the thought behind going back to Albuquerque after Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, but a totally different side of Albuquerque than we've seen.

[B]

I love Albuquerque. And even more than that, I love our crew. I've been working with this. We have been working with this crew, for some folks, since the very beginning of Breaking Bad, which dates back to 2007, which, as we record this, is. What is that, 18 years ago? I can't even believe it when I say it.

[D]

It can vote. The concept of the crew.

[E]

That's rude, Jen.

[B]

That's very rude. Yeah, no, that's so I wanted to work with the same crew. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it did give me a little pause to be honest thinking, should we set it in Albuquerque even though we're shooting in Albuquerque? And then I thought, no, you can't spend half your energy trying to hide the factory.

[E]

Oh, you mean shoot Albuquerque as a different city?

[B]

Yeah. Cause I mean, when they first pitched it to me, Breaking Bad shoot Albuquerque as Los Angeles. And that was one of the smart decisions I made. I made a lot of dumb ones too. But the smart one was, don't pretend it's la. Cause it's going to be very. You can't ever show the Sandias if you do that. But I thought, isn't it weird it's Rhea Seehorn playing this new character? She's not Kim Wexler. It may bump some people. I can understand why, but I figured, still, it's worth it.

[A]

Well, and Ray sporting a very different look than Kim Wexler with Carol. What was the thinking behind that?

[E]

I was talking with Vince and then also Trish Almeida, the head of our hair department, who also was the ponytail designer on Better Calls All. But she and I were just talking about different looks for the character, but also some practicalities. We knew going in that it would be a lot of. Probably a lot of shoots where I am supposed to have not done my hair, maybe not showered, like I'm talking throughout the whole season. And with longer hair, you can get into some real predicaments, not. Not even trying to look attractive as much as keeping any kind of continuity. Because longer hair, like some people have long, thick, lustrous hair like Ms. Siopi and Ms. Carol, but mine gets stringy. And so if it's not, you know, coiffed as it was in Sol, then it could be problematic. And then we were just talking about it would be fun to have a different hairstyle. Then pitched a couple of ideas to Vince and he liked this kind of chin length bob that we came up with, which really was helpful, I have to say. Whether we're shooting in extreme heat or extreme cold or sweating or it's supposed to look wet from the shower, all those things. And then Matt Cradle, our a camera op, who's also been with us forever, he and I had a really fun moment because I think it's the first time I'm on screen. Is the Barnes and Noble scene right?

[B]

Sure is.

[E]

Which was really fun shooting there. And they are. Was it a dolly tracking shot or a slider that you did going behind me, a slider.

[B]

Sliding. Revealing the audience. Showing the audience, and then revealing. You wanted to give you a big movie star entrance.

[C]

Right?

[E]

But the back of my head.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Movie star back of the head.

[B]

No, that's actually a cool example.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Because you want to hold off. Vince has always said this, that, like, the coolest introduction is to hold off on seeing the character's face for as long as possible.

[E]

Love that.

[B]

Indiana Jones in Raiders of the Lost Ark, he has one of the coolest. Harrison Ford has one of the coolest introductions because you, Spielberg, who's a genius, you know, holds off Santa. And then when he finally. Sam, it's like the back of his head. It takes quite a while before you see his face if you watch it.

[E]

Oh, that's awesome. Now I want to go back and see it. So as Matt was filming it, we did a take, and then I looked over at Matt because so many shots were designed in Better Call Saul that were framing my ponytail and coming up from behind. Sometimes as this barometer of where Kim was at emotionally, I'm, like, falling apart. Tightly wound. And he got, like, a little, like, chill running up his spine of just like, wow. It is definitely a new character. It is totally a different day because the ponytail is gone. And I was thinking the same thing. It's that we had a nice little moment, like, just doing that. I mean, and Matt framed. When I directed on Saul and chose a shot that was Kim's moving her chair. He and I kept working on how he was framing the back of my head and stuff. I remember that. Yeah, we had a lot of conversations about it. So we did think that was fun. A little subtle. None of us planned it to be that. But I do think it's a subtle little nod of like, we're not in Kansas anymore.

[B]

You're right. And I admit, I was just thinking of the cool movie star introduction. I was not thinking about, oh, it's all about her. But that was a really wonderful added benefit. It's, oh, there's no ponytail here. We're a different character. I thought that was. Matt reacted to that was fun. And then suddenly I went, oh, yeah, right.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

That's why I did it.

[E]

How did you guys come to decide, like, how the others were gonna behave when they are seizing and all of that? Because that got introduced in this episode and was something. I wasn't sure what it was gonna look like either. And of course, you had Nito Lariosa doing the choreograph. That was a big ask to ask a lot of background people, some of whom are actors, Some may not want to be doing that as a. As a living, but they all had to act, they had to perform.

[B]

You were right. You were right. It was one of the scarier parts of pre production for me personally, because we had big crowd scenes. I don't like big crowd scenes as a direct. I mean, I don't like. I like them fine when I'm watching a movie or a TV show. I don't particularly like directing them. I don't really feel that in control, period, when I'm directing. But the more people I have to direct, the less in control I feel. And the more I have Jen and Trina and Alana, my assistant, and anyone. People I trust, and anyone I trust for that matter. Stan. I get folks to stand behind me and look at the monitor. And sometimes I give them quadrants of the screen, say, look in this quadrant and this quadrant. Only look in this one. Because you're looking out for some. One person out of a hundred to be staring at the camera, you know, or just doing something wrong. And I have to say, our extras were really good.

[E]

Really good.

[B]

They did a great job. But Nito directed the extras. I didn't. Or I had a much more minimal hand. But Nito.

[E]

Well, they had totally separate rehearsals, right?

[B]

Yeah. Nito and Trina was invaluable and Jen was invaluable, these ladies and our assistant directors. Because really, the folks. Oh, Angie. Yeah.

[D]

So Nito would choreography and certainly Trina and Alana and I would watch guard. But the people who are really responsible are the assistant directors for talking to the background performers.

[E]

And then it still had to be dialed in on the day. I remember quite a few takes, rightfully so, being about what is the tone? How scary do these people look? How passive do they look? As we all found out, it's very difficult to passively look pleasant without looking crazy, Lobotomized, High as a kite. Freakish. Like they can't be smiling. No. What is this creepy thread or needle that you have to thread? And I. And I. I do want to shout out. Prior to them becoming others, the background people that were in the Barnes and Noble were phenomenal.

[C]

Hilarious.

[E]

People crushed it.

[A]

How scripted was that sequence that I. There's so. So much little.

[C]

Very little, though.

[E]

Some scripted. Some were lines thrown out.

[D]

On the day we did upgrade some of the. The background performers, we chose a few and upgraded them. And then on the day Vince and Trina and Angie and I would prep those folks who are waiting in line to Talk to you. And I remember we're running up and down the line being like, okay, here's the backstory, here are the characters. Here's some things you might want to. To ask about. Like in this. Maybe you're a fan of book two and you have a question about the amulet. You know, stuff like that.

[B]

It was. It was. It took a village. It was a group effort. And. And these guys all did a great job. The extra did a great job.

[E]

And.

[B]

And Miriam and Ray. Some of the very funniest lines Miriam and Ray came up with, like, what was the one about the support person? What was.

[A]

Oh, yeah, her support. That's really funny.

[E]

Yeah. Miriam, introducing the woman.

[A]

Support person.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

The two of you together were just a per.

[E]

Perfect, spectacular man. She's so. She's so great. And I had not met her before, before we did this, and I just loved. I. Well, I called her before, before we started, and I was like, congratulations. And I can't wait. And I can't wait to meet you and tell me when you're getting to town. And she was just like, I don't. I don't want to badmouth any show she's been on. But she was like, I don't. I don't really remember the last time the lead called me to say congratulations and I can't wait to see you, but I'm sure some have. But she was referencing whatever. But she was so great. And we hit it off instantly. We just had such a fun time. And in the. I was telling Vince, I don't know if I told you guys, the escalator scene when we get back on the airplane, the gum. Super hard. Super hard. And I'm not joking. What? Because we both had wheelie bags that only fit a certain way. Honest. If. And we've all done it, you get on the escalator with your wheelie bag and it may or may not actually fit on the same step. Your standing. Or does it need to be on the step in front of you or the step behind you? And who are you getting in the way of? And she had to be on one side and we can't block each other. And she's got a bag and I have to have a bag. And it needed to look pretty smooth. We've done it a thousand times because we travel for book tours, blah, blah, blah. And we're just starting to get it. And then we're also, like, trying to figure out when the camera comes into view as we descend without looking for the camera, obviously. And I'M playing how my character's feeling about her switching the books up. And then Vince goes, and now you're going to hand her a piece of gum. And we were like, what? So then we try to do that. So she's like. She goes, I need one hand for the rail and one hand for the suitcase. I was like, I got a hand on a suitcase alone. And so we're trying to figure. So she's unwrapping the gum. That's taking too long. We're already. We're on camera too fast for the unwrapping of the gum. And then Vince, this goes, so what if you're handing her, like, do people hand people a piece of gum like this? And he hands her a stick of gum that's peeled. Like, you would see, like a cartoon banana at the top in a way that no one would ever, ever give.

[C]

You a piece of gum peel gum.

[E]

Let alone with one hand. Because she's doing it with one hand.

[B]

She is.

[E]

She and I both like, yeah, sure. And Vince laughed, and we were like, no one does that. What are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? So finally we decide, like, gum is pre unwrapped. Thousands of discussions, and then we're still. We're practicing it over and over and over on the moving steps. And then, like, we almost fall over. We get back up to this day, if Miriam is traveling and goes through an. Through an airport on an escalator, or I do. We text each other and go, nailed it. Just did the escalator.

[B]

I have a bag.

[E]

I got gum. You should have seen me.

[D]

Incredible.

[E]

So we're pretty proud of the escalator scene. I just want to throw that out there.

[B]

It's a highlight.

[E]

It is.

[B]

We didn't make that day, but, yeah, exactly.

[E]

She's so much fun.

[A]

She's a blast. Effortless chemistry.

[C]

Effortless.

[A]

Really effortless.

[B]

Was it effortless?

[A]

I mean, yeah, you're both great actors. I think that goes without saying, but it really. There seems to be something just intangible about just a chemistry that you have.

[E]

We share a similar warped sense of humor. Hers might be. Mine might be darker, and hers might be slightly more warped. But we share a history of theater, a love of New York theater. But I think mostly. I honestly think mostly what it is is two people that have been working for a long time and are so thrilled to still be getting to do what we love, and then to be on a set. She instantly realized, starting from my phone call and then probably conversations with Jen and Vince and Trina and everybody at Costa, like, she was saying all the same things that I was saying on Saul. Of like, my God, the costume designer wants to talk to me about character. Not how short my skirt is or what the network would like, you know, and deep dives into character. And then we're rehearsing. And I could see how much she loved that kind of room to play that big safety net, to take risks. And instantly, we were both women that are gals. Gals. I'm not there to compete with anybody or the guys. I want you to be the best you've ever been today. And that's gonna make me better, and that's gonna make the scene better. That shouldn't be an anomaly, but it can be. And people would. What chemistry looks like. For me, it's two things. It's showing up to set, doing all your prep and then being delighted to have a curveball thrown at you by your scene partner. If they have done their work, not disagree with you, but to. Because they're being in character and they want to play. And then you're throwing them something back. And that tether between you that your line reading could never be the same until you heard how they did theirs reads as chemistry because you are invisibly connected. And then the second thing is really, really, really being each other's cheerleader. Like, I want her to be great, and I respect everything she's doing. And if she wants to try something that involves me trying something, like, we would do it together. And it just made us. You just are a team.

[A]

I think some of the scenes where I see that chemistry in this show and Saul, too, are the sort of. The quieter moments, the sort of. There's fewer words spoken. I think about the scene right after the Barnes and Noble, the signing, getting in the car and Carol. We see kind of a different side of Carol. Like a darker side, maybe the more real side. And it's interesting hearing Carol. She speaks very differently about herself and her work than she does when she's around her fans.

[E]

Right.

[A]

Which I found very interesting, I guess, the duality of the artist. You know, the way that we. The way that we present ourselves versus the way that maybe we think about ourselves.

[B]

Well, I mean, yeah, part of it was just, you know, it's fun to surprise the audience. But part of it was, you know, she's so. Carol is so good with her fans. She's. Your character's very good in that signing scene. She's very warm and authentic and loves her fans. And then she gets in that car. And it's like, what a bunch of bullshit. And hopefully that doesn't read like she's inauthentic, truly, like she's being fake. She's, you know, lying to the fans. I think it's more like there's this duality she has where she really does love her fans and is proud of her work and then somehow kind of poops on it in the next breath. And, you know, I think it speaks to something bigger. I don't think Carol is meant to be happy or she feels like perhaps she's not meant to be happy. Maybe part of it doesn't have to do with her fans at all, but has more to do with the idea that every time she starts to get a little bit happy, a little bit pleased, a little bit satisfied, she has to find, rationalize, find some reason as to why she's not really happy. It's not really worthy of her to be writing this series of romance novels or whatever, but she's kind of full of it. And I think Helen, more than anyone else on Earth, knows that, knows her best of all and just kind of calls her on it. In the bar, for instance. Oh, it must be so tough to be you with all these loving fans. Helen is. You two really are great together. Again, that chemistry. And it's so important that they are, because they have very few scenes together in that first episode. When you think about it, and you really need for it, structurally speaking, from a writer's point of view, you really need it to hit hard. When what happens to Helen happens to Helen.

[D]

You have to feel that loss. And you do.

[C]

That night I cried watching people experience tears in my eyes.

[E]

I know those were tough nights. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And you had to keep doing it. See, it's one thing to do it once. I don't know who very few people could do it to that level. You did it even once, but then you got. How do you do it over and over again?

[E]

I mean, there's things that I give myself. I don't. I mean, to be technical about it, the homework for me, the homework of, like, the as ifs of. Have you experienced anything like this in your life? And how did you behave? Have you watched other people? How did they behave? So you can start thinking about the different reactions and tools that different people have. I do that homework at home just to, like, sort of analyze it. Because for me, on the day, to rely on thinking about your dead dog in the corner and then coming over is not repeatable after a while, like, you can't you can't keep doing that. And sometimes it's hard to take direction if you're coming from a place that's literally just self purging, you know, that's just for me and how. And how I work. So I'll then give myself some. Some markers. One of the things I'll do is like ask myself where the pain lives. Because most of the time when you're in extreme pain about something, it lives somewhere in your body. Like it's a lump you can't swallow, or it's a burning in your chest, or it feels like somebody's sitting on your diaphragm, or your face feels like it's getting hot. And I find that strangely to be more repeatable as the instigator to tell your body like, this is where we're at. And then I guess just having done it this long, my job, if I have understood how the character feels about this other character being in pain, and I am graciously gifted a scene partner that is fantastic as Bob was, as Miriam is, looking at them through the eyes of my character makes me feel that it isn't like I lose my mind and I think I'm the other character. But do you know what I mean? Like, as long as you can start there, I can then play the scene and I'm there as opposed to wandering around. And I do goof off between scenes. And sometimes I have to because it gets so heavy. And I think I told you after a couple of takes one night I was like, I need a minute because my gag reflex kept going up because I was choking, sobbing so hard. And then poor, poor Miriam, once she was on screen, she was. She couldn't stop crying for me. And I'm like, you can't be crying. And she's like, shit. But we, but we would have some laughs to relieve it. For instance, it was freezing cold. And every time we got up to give everybody a break and I run pretty hot, but I got cold and Miriam runs cold and got free freezing. And she's on the bed of that truck, which was metal. So they took tons of hand warmers and they're all up and down, like in her shirt, in her jacket, in her pants. And every time she'd get up to walk and take a break, she would just be pooping hand warmers. They were just like, like tons coming out of sleeves, coming out of pants legs. I was laughing my head up. But yeah, so I just. And you try to tell the story again and again and it gets Harder when. Cause we shot different parts of it over two nights. So when you come back the next night and you would come and tell me, rightfully so I need you to start at 14 where you were last night. It's like, we're not going one to 14, we have to start from 14. And so I would go home and I would make notes of like, where were you in that moment? Is it the. Just different markers? Is this the moment where it feels like a mule kicked you in the chest? Is this the moment where you're in absolute denial, which is its own kind of physical reaction to something? And I know we filmed it a couple of different ways, and I know that you and I both thought it was imperative for it to be difficult to watch and wrenching because there's so few scenes and this grief and what it does to Carol and her decision making moving forward needed to have weight so that it stays in people's minds.

[B]

Absolutely. It's so great working with pros, I tell you. Thank you. And for the folks listening who want to direct, this is probably an obvious statement if you think about it, but from a director's perspective, you need to protect your actor as much as possible in a big scene like this. So we started with the close ups because that's where the money is cutting into the forehead, whatever. The closest to the close up. We started with that stuff because I knew in a moment like that we're going to cut to the close up and then we work backward from there and get wider, which was really helpful.

[E]

And you're also really great with explaining to me how we're going to shoot. And it's not that I save it, but there are different things I have to do do to physically protect myself if I. If I know we're doing it for, you know, 10 hours versus two hours or whatever, whatever we're doing that day. And something that I thought was very interesting, that the listeners might think was interesting. And I don't know if you guys were privy to it, Trina and Jen, probably, but you came to me on the second day we were shooting it, and you said, there's something that keeps bumping me. And I said, it's the same thing that keeps bumping me. And it was why she leaves Helen's body. Yeah, to get up out of the truck and go follow these people. And we both, like, kept tossing around ideas. And you're always the smartest person in the room. But it's been really incredible for me that we have had collaboration at times on like, let's figure out who this character is and what the tone is and all that. And I remember that night we figured out that her anger almost that, why are these people getting up and my wife isn't. Is what makes her get up and go. Like, I gotta get some answers. Like, what the F is going on? Katherine Madsen, our lovely sound post sound.

[D]

Supervising sound editor.

[E]

Supervising sound editor. She and quite a few other people that have seen the pilot have mentioned that millisecond look that I do down to Helen before I get out of the truck. And they're like, it kills me. And I was like, that makes me so, so happy that, you know, like, you think. You guys think things through, like, to the Nth degree. But there's still the thing that happens on the day that you didn't know this was gonna not read this way, or this was that, and that was that. And to have tiny, tiny, tiny storytelling moments like that that you give the space on set for us to care about and to figure out and then to have an audience follow it was just really rewarding for me.

[B]

That was a tough scene, but a very rewarding scene. I was so lucky to have you doing it because I didn't have to worry about you. The thing I remember worrying about the most during that scene is. And all the extras were great. They did a very good job. But I didn't quite know what to do with them.

[E]

Right.

[B]

As in, they come out and a lot of them just stand there and look at the fire. Look at the sparks coming. It's not a fire. The sparks coming from an ambulance. And this bothered me, not just on the set, but weeks and weeks ahead of it. I remember thinking, what are they doing? And then I thought, well, they're smart enough to know that you can't touch the ambulance without getting electrocuted because there's a live wire on top of it. Yeah, stuff like that. The logistical stuff is the stuff that gets you sometimes more than the. Because I knew I could trust you to pull it off. So I wasn't worried about you.

[E]

I didn't.

[B]

But it's just funny the things you worry about. What are all these extras doing? I don't want them standing there like a bunch of lumps too long and. But they. They really pulled it off. They did a great job.

[E]

Did you audition the background people?

[B]

We did.

[C]

We had. We had open auditions for actors, for background, for literally anybody, really. And we had them show up to, like, a dance hall or theater, and they would meet with Nito. I Think in like groups of five or 10. We, you know, we, we used so many background. I mean, hundreds, hundreds, thousands. And it was great, I think, you know, I'm sure you've done background work. I've done background work and a lot of times it's like, oh, just start here and just grab this folder and walk across the room. And then you watch. So. And you know, you see maybe your little flutter of your shirt or something. So I think it was great for the background to act.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

They felt like they were part of the scene, they were part of the show. It gave, you know, they were very.

[A]

Much thrilled about it.

[C]

Yeah, they were thrilled about it and they did a fabulous job. We had some really good.

[D]

One thing you did, Ray, that I have never seen anyone else do was you would give, during that first episode especially, you would give a speech to the background. You would gather everybody up and you would talk to them and you would thank them for being there and you would remind them that what they were doing was so critical to the story and that they were part of the world the same way you were. And it inspired them to get through some of those very cold night shoots. As you said, they were in every shot.

[E]

And there were some very hot ones later indeed. Thank you. Yeah, I think I did. Every time we had like a large group that was with me, you know, Vince and I would tell them we have a lot of fabulous post production on this show because it requires it, but by and large you kept things as practical as possible when it came to the people. They're not tiled and CGI'd and all that. I know that was important, you know, to these people, that they were being valued as you are acting. They're acting in a synchronized way and as a unit, but they are individual people. They are not robotics. So people have different ambling walks or ways of gesturing or slightly different facial expressions. And they were all like doing it and then and there for me. And I told them, you know, yeah, like they were my scene partners and they were creating this world that is completely up to them to. For the audience to understand what is this? What is this thing we're looking at? And wordlessly. And I did want to thank them and I have done them background work. And I think feeling respected for how hard that job is to do well is only going to get us feeling seen. Feeling seen.

[C]

Feeling seen. Because they are very much a part of the scene as anyone else. Without them, it would not have 100%.

[B]

Absolutely true. And, you know, it was interesting. It was an evolution, Chris, about deciding. And we did. When I wrote the thing a long time ago, because I started writing this thing literally years and years ago, I thought everyone should speak in perfect unison. Everyone should move in perfect. You know, like I was picturing some stuff I'd seen, like Cirque du Soleil do, and very graceful, very imperfect. Or the Marine Corps drill team, if you've ever seen those guys. Amazing. Throwing M1 rifles in the air and the guy behind it catches it without looking and all this kind of stuff. I know it's humanly possible, but you literally got to spend years practicing it. And we can't spend years. Seems like we can, but we can't. But it came to dawn on all of us, I think, that people speaking too much in perfect unison is actually not pleasing. We wound up in the sound mixes, for instance. Staggering. People talking all at once, just a little bit. Because if they're too perfectly in unison, it somehow it doesn't have the effect you want. You need them not so perfectly in unison.

[A]

That uncanny valley.

[B]

A little bit.

[A]

Something's not right about this, and it bothers your brain.

[E]

Yeah. So did you guys do that even on that first time when they speak to me in the truck, Right. Oh, outside the truck in the hospital is the first time I think they speak to me?

[A]

Yes, there was.

[B]

But the other thing is they. Especially a bunch of people as good as those extras were a bunch of people. You know, in hour 11 of the night when it's that cold outside, they're not the Marine Corps drill team. They never will be. They can't do it in perfect sync. But then I think we added more voices in post and made it a bigger crowd, so to speak, and staggered it maybe a little more still.

[E]

Right.

[D]

Because we want it to feel human. That's been the sort of guiding thought behind almost every decision we make about the others, wouldn't you say? Because they're people. They're not robots. They're not aliens. They're human. And then staggering. The voices and people speaking in whatever accent that they have, and people walking with a limp, if they have a limp. They're. They're not superhuman. They're just. They're people.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, one place where their. Their movements were a bit more synchronized was sort of in the Patient Zero era area at USAM Rid. And I know we're going to run out of time. I just wanted to get into that section because those clean suits, those. What are the positive pressure suits. You talk. Those are so cool. You talk A little bit about because those were constructed and there's full.

[E]

Cool.

[B]

The hot suits, the spacesuits, they really are something. You guys talk about them. They were cool and expensive.

[C]

They are based off of real suits. We had to make the suits for the actors as well as have our special effects team pump air into them so that they could breathe. Because they're actually in closed suits. So we had little mini fans in there. Special effects had air tubes running through, you know, across the ceiling. So when they plug in, it actually does. Also, you have to worry about the mask steaming up the temperature. If they're hot inside, it's hot out. You know, it was. You couldn't keep them in there for too long.

[D]

Yeah, you can only be unplugged for. For 10 minutes. But the suits had to be puzzled. So you needed the air running and we needed to use special microphones to communicate with them. If you were standing next to somebody while the suit was. Was on, they couldn't hear you. So Vince had to speak into a.

[C]

M so that they could hear each other.

[E]

I was going to say, so they could hear each other until you did.

[C]

Yes. And then we had to rehearse with them ahead of time so that they could. We knew that they could move in the suits.

[D]

They had to be X function.

[C]

And you know, that's.

[A]

That's. Do we have technical advisors on that?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Quite a good one.

[D]

Yeah, we did.

[E]

For.

[D]

For that sequence we had a scientist, Aaron McDonald, who was instrumental in the montage and figure out like, what people are doing and. And also talking to us during pre production. You know, hopefully it's okay to say, Vincent, in your first iteration of the scene, there was one scientist in the lab. And one thing Aaron said to us is in a biosafety level 4 lab, you would never have just one person. And you rewrote the scene to have a second scientist. And I think it's so much better.

[B]

I just went with my old X file. Learning from years ago, a person by themselves is gonna be scarier. So that's the way I intended it. But then, yeah, Aaron said, you know, it just doesn't work that way. And I thought for a microsecond, as I always do, well, you know, artistic license, let's just keep it this way. And then I thought, it's never steered me wrong. It's always held us in, me and us, you know, as a group. It's held us in good stead. When we get things technically accurate or as accurate as we humanly can, it Never has harmed us. It has always paid dividends. So we listened to her. I rewrote dialogue, restructured things based on what she said and based on what our technical advisor from the VLA said.

[D]

Yes, Brian Svoboda. And in the scene where we have the 20 scientists at the VLA, those were all real scientists who work there.

[B]

We did all.

[D]

We put the call and said anybody who wants to be. And then we essentially had to do a lottery because so many folks wanted to be part of it, to be in it.

[B]

Yeah, those are real nerds, not fake ones.

[A]

Actually, they're in good company with all of us.

[B]

Us, IQ level in that tiny trailer. Must have been, must, must have set an all time world record.

[C]

Like a smarter than the whole crew put together.

[B]

Oh, God.

[D]

But the crew's brilliant too.

[B]

This clown car of geniuses.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

In the lab too. We used real lab when we did the, the montage. Yeah, we.

[E]

When they're doing the swabs and all that.

[D]

The background performers.

[C]

Not the montage with, with Nito after they, you know, but the, the one, the.

[D]

The science montage.

[C]

Science montage.

[E]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

We, we did put the call out to anyone who, any background performers that had a background in science. And then on the day, you know, Aaron would say, oh, this was, this is this type of centrifuge or whatever. And we'd say the assistant director or, or, or whoever would say, does anyone know how to run this test? And six hands would, would be raised. And so, because we wanted people who knew how to use the equipment. And Erin herself is in that scene as well.

[E]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And Brian's in the scene at the vla.

[C]

Yes, yes. With the fabulous sweater.

[B]

Yes, that's right, that's right. And Nito, that scene where they're doing the swabbing, the actors are doing the swabbing in perfect unison. That scared me. But Nito really. I said to Nito what I wanted and Nito made it happen. And I went and had a sandwich and it was.

[A]

It's always a sandwich or a hot dog.

[D]

I love hot dogs.

[C]

And we should mention his assistant. Cause Marissa did also have a big play, a big role in Marisa did a wonderful job.

[B]

But I was so pleased and grateful and relieved that they made that work because I don't know anything about choreography.

[A]

Before we wrap up, something that surprised me the first time and every time I see it is how I'm laughing out loud with Davis Taffler on the screen.

[E]

Oh, my good.

[A]

And the Chirons on the you know, your life is your own. And we're not aliens. We're not aliens. Yeah. That stuff is so funny to me. And that there could be this, like, tonal shift right at the end after this sort of apocalyptic terror that Carol has just experienced and is still experiencing, even though that for. As an audience. Cause we're not experiencing it physically. I just. I love that part so much. I love that wild tonal shift.

[B]

I do, too. I don't know how it works exactly. I'd have a hard time deconstructing it in terms of telling people how to do it. But it starts with great actors. It starts with people. And it's the truth. And it. And it. And also, you know, I learned that it could be done.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

On the X Files. Years and years ago, X Files was a very serious show. But a writer named Darren Morgan, wonderful writer, kind of proved to all of us that the show could be funny because up to a certain point, there was a couple of dark humor moments. But Darren was the first writer to write a really full out funny one. And it was great. And ever since then, maybe even before, but ever since then, certainly I've always been intrigued by how elastic a story can be in terms of how dark can you go, how dramatic can you go, and then how quickly can you shift gears? And this show does that. And it starts with the actors being honest and never. And we could do a whole other hour just about humor and comedy and you could teach a course in it. But it's the timing. No, I think so. And comic timing. And knowing even when your character's deadly serious, knowing where the laughs are, you.

[E]

Know, feeling, but not playing. The laugh, but not playing. It's an interesting thing.

[B]

Yep, it sure is, but.

[E]

And Peter Bergman was so great.

[B]

Peter Bergman, I gotta give it.

[E]

So great.

[B]

Yes.

[E]

Playing Tafler.

[B]

Davis Taffler. Davis Taffler, usda. Peter Bergman. My wife Holly and I have known him for years. He and his wonderful wife, Mary Ellen. And they were introduced to us by Bryan Cranston and Robin Dearden, Brian's wife. And Peter wound up on the Young and the Restless. He's been on it over, I think, around 40 years now. Wow. And he is the sweetest guy. They both are. He and his wife are wonderful, wonderful folks. And it was so much fun. And that was not a burn in. You were really watching him on tv. Burn in meaning, you know, we shot it separately and then. And then digitally composited onto your TV in your set. On Carol's tv. On the set that was you were actually watching a live tv. He was in the other soundstage. It took a lot of technical figure.

[A]

Oh, my God. He did not know that.

[E]

That's amazing. And Phil Palmer figured out earwigs that both Peter could use on the other stage and I could use. That wouldn't interfere with the recording that you're trying to do of our voices separately. Because you don't want to hear his voice coming on my mic from my ear, which was really fun, really cool to be able to play off of each other in that way.

[B]

And at one point, your earwig fell out. Yes. And we digitally erased it out of your ear.

[E]

Sorry.

[B]

Well, no, I mean, it was.

[D]

You never broke performance, and your performance was so good. We used the take where the earwig fell out.

[A]

Well, speaking of earwigs falling out, our earwigs are falling out of our ears right now and out of our mouths.

[E]

How about that?

[A]

That's. I don't even know what that means. That's all the time we have for this week, but, yeah. Thank you guys for coming and being here. Thanks for listening.

[B]

This was so much fun.

[A]

All right, thank you so much to Ray Seehorn, Jen Carroll, Trina Siopi, and Vince Gilligan. And thank you for listening to the first episode of Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by High Bridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed and watch Pluribus on Apple tv, where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeest and Nicholas Tsai. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me. Your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.