S1E2: Pirate Lady

Summary

---

Pluribus: The Official Podcast

S1E2: "Pirate Lady"

Host: Chris McCaleb
Guests: Vince Gilligan (Creator/Writer/Director), Diane Mercer (Executive Producer), Denise Pizzini (Production Designer), Carolina Vidra (Zosia)

Release Date: November 7, 2025

---

Overview

This episode of Pluribus: The Official Podcast offers a deep dive into the making of episode 102, "Pirate Lady," of Apple TV's new original series. Host and editor Chris McCaleb leads a candid, freewheeling roundtable with series creator Vince Gilligan, executive producer Diane Mercer, production designer Denise Pizzini, and actress Carolina Vidra (who plays Zosia). The group discusses the complexities of the shoot—from building a replica of Air Force One and a massive cul-de-sac set, to the performance challenges of a superhuman character. Behind-the-scenes stories, technical feats, character insights, and creative collaboration are explored with humor, candor, and detail.

---

Key Discussion Points

The Production’s Scale & Schedule

• Unprecedented Shooting Timeline: The episode was filmed across various months and locations:
  • March (with episode 1)
  • September (Air Force One interiors/exteriors)
  • November-December (Spain exteriors)

  “The whole world got much, much bigger. We met a ton of new people, including Zosia... That’s a lot of time covered for one of these.” — Chris McCaleb [00:55]

---

Building Air Force One

• Massive Practical Set:

  • Started with just a door from Air Force One.
  • Evolved to constructing a huge portion of the plane, including functional stairs and interiors.
  • Authenticity involved sourcing airplane parts from Tucson and Arizona airplane graveyards.
  • Engineering considerations were significant due to scale and safety (e.g., strong New Mexico winds).

  “We built this huge structure so we could take the stairs up to Air Force One and the cast could walk all the way up into this set that we built.” — Denise Pizzini [01:52]

• Design for Cinematic Scope:

  • Sets built to allow for long, continuous shots—avoiding green-screen "curse."
  • Ensured actor interaction with practical elements for realism.

---

Flying and Filming with Real Aircraft

• Authentic Plane Operations:

  • Carolina Vidra (Zosia) was trained to taxi a 70,000-pound C-130 military plane from 1954, brought over from Malaysia.
  • Shots of the plane taxiing filmed at Albuquerque airport with real vistas out the windows.

  “It was wild—it’s this tiny little lever that just turns... You’d imagine something massive. It’s actually not. It’s really small.” — Carolina Vidra [08:32]

• On-Set Anecdotes:

  • Carolina’s earpiece picked up air traffic control, causing momentary confusion during shooting.

  “At one point, he’s like, go right, go right. I’m like, what? What is he saying to me?...” — Carolina Vidra [09:40]

---

The Character of Zosia & "The Others"

• Acting Challenges:

  • Zosia embodies a near-perfect, unflappable being—constantly calm, skilled, and emotionally steady.
  • Carolina wrestled with erasing her own nerves to convincingly portray this optimized, nearly blissful state.

  “Normally...you go, ‘I’m nervous, give it to the character.’ And this is like: no, you cannot.” — Carolina Vidra [13:15]

• Process and Direction:

  • Vince Gilligan directed Vidra to "go further", heightening the character's non-robotic, blissful confidence.
  • Ongoing exploration of who "the others" are—untroubled, implacable, and skilled.

• Multilingualism:

  • Zosia greets the "Old Schoolers" in multiple languages (Hindi, Mongolian, Quechua, Mandarin, French) to emphasize the show's global scope.
  • Languages learned via phonetic scripts and slow recordings, with assistance from cast and occasional linguist advisors.

  “The original [script] was a paragraph page...I might have asked, ‘Are you sure you want me to say this in that many languages?’ — Carolina Vidra [17:39]

---

Designing and Building Carol’s Neighborhood

• Cul de Sac Constructed from Scratch:

  • Needed a fully controlled, customizable neighborhood (not feasible in real locations due to property and noise).
  • Six houses designed and built on leased land in west Albuquerque—each uniquely styled to avoid a "cookie-cutter" look.
  • Extensive logistical work: grading for sightlines, waterproofing, windproofing, landscaping (including 350 tons of aggregate and 30 transplanted trees).

  “We found the land first, and then we started plotting out how the neighborhood would be...designed six houses...Carol’s being at the end of the cul de sac.” — Denise Pizzini [20:19]

• Attention to Detail:

  • Ensured details like roof realism, drainage, and practical backyards for helicopter drone shots.
  • Interior and exterior integration allowed for continuous shots and realistic vistas.

  “I wanted it to be like a custom neighborhood...not one of these cookie-cutter suburbs.” — Denise Pizzini [21:36]

---

Collaboration and Creative Process

• Teamwork and Trust:
  • The episode benefited from extended production time, allowing cast and crew to fully inhabit and refine characters and their relationships.
  • Diane Mercer’s increased on-set involvement facilitated creative cohesion across departments.
  • Established working relationships from Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul were key to executing complex ideas.

  “Everybody leans on everybody else, but everybody also knows they can lean on everyone else...It’s just magical.” — Denise Pizzini [35:07]

---

Cinematic Approach & Key Scenes

• Table Scene in Spain—A Technical Feat:
  • A complex lunch scene in the Basque country involved international cast, heavy dialogue, and precise blocking.
  • Shot over four days under a custom-built gazebo; relied on detailed pre-planning (30-40+ labeled shots), multiple cameras, and careful editing.
  • Praised editor Skip’s work and Marshall Adams’ cinematography.

  “You could really teach an advanced editing class with that sequence because of the amount of material, the shot choices, and how you constructed it.” — Chris McCaleb [38:00] “That was my least favorite scene...it wound up being one of my favorites because of the wonderful actors.” — Vince Gilligan [38:18]

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Building Air Force One:

  “On a normal, like, TV budget schedule, you would not be able to get the scope in the shot.” — Diane Mercer [03:56]

• On Playing Zosia:

  “If anything happens, you’re just not affected by it. You just roll with it like nothing.” — Carolina Vidra [12:46]

• On Set Construction:

  “You don’t want it to look like a set. The bad part is, it’s thankless because people don’t realize how much work and planning it took.” — Denise Pizzini [27:09]

• On Creative Collaboration:

  “We would have failed catastrophically at this show if we did not have this history with this crew.” — Diane Mercer [35:56]

• On Trust:

  “There’s so much trust...so much understanding...it’s really magnificent.” — Carolina Vidra [35:27]

---

Notable Timestamps

• [01:52] — Denise Pizzini details building the Air Force One set.
• [06:21] — On searching for usable airplane parts in Arizona and Roswell.
• [08:29] — Carolina Vidra recounts learning to taxi a real 1954 C130.
• [13:15] — Carolina expresses the acting challenge of suppressing nerves.
• [17:39] — Vince and Carolina discuss the original, much longer, multilingual greeting scene.
• [20:19] — Denise on designing and constructing the cul de sac neighborhood.
• [29:38] — Diane Mercer’s perspective on creative and production challenges.
• [33:50] — Diane and Carolina discuss Vince’s unique shot design for Zosia’s introduction.
• [38:18] — Vince on the daunting and ultimately rewarding lunch scene in Spain.
• [40:18] — Vince shares his directing process and the intricacies of shot planning.
• [41:31] — Shouting out Spanish crew and conclusion.

---

Tone & Takeaway

The discussion is friendly, precise, and packed with anecdotes, practical insights, and mutual admiration. There is a tangible sense of both the scale and heart behind the show. The group’s openness about problem-solving, happy accidents, and creative trust offers fans a vivid picture of the collaborative engines powering Pluribus. This episode is a testament to how ambition, preparation, and teamwork are foundational to breakthrough television.

---

For New Listeners

This summary provides a comprehensive lens through which to appreciate the enormous logistical, creative, and emotional labor going into Pluribus. Whether you’re intrigued by set construction, the actor’s process, or storytelling on a grand canvas, you’ll find the “Pirate Lady” episode a compelling behind-the-scenes journey.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. This isn't a recap show. Instead, we favor a freewheeling, unscripted discussion about the making of each episode. This podcast is about episode 102, entitled Pirate lady, written and directed by Vince Gilligan. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome our guests, creator and writer, director of this episode, Vince Gilligan.

[B]

Hey, everybody.

[A]

Executive producer Diane Mercer.

[B]

Hi.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Production designer, Denise Pizzini.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

And Zosia herself, Carolina Vidra.

[E]

Hi.

[A]

Well, this is 102, and it's a big episode. The whole. The world got much, much bigger. We met a ton of new people, including Zosia. First, let's talk about this. I know this episode was shot over the longest period of time. We shot half of it with episode one in March, and then the Air Force One interiors and exteriors in September, and then the exteriors in Spain in late November and early December. That's a lot of time covered for one of these.

[E]

I forgot about that. But that's.

[B]

I will take your word for it. The whole thing is just a blur. But, yeah, it was. Boy, it was a long one. Oh, my God. And when we talk about Air Force One, I'm so glad we got Denise here.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. We could talk. We'll never get to everything we have to talk about, but we can't not talk about Air Force One. Let's talk about it.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

So that was the real Air Force One, and that was no trickery or building or visual effects involved at all. Right.

[D]

Well, the art department, we started out with a door to Air Force One, and then it grew a little bigger. So we could have. Well, we'll just have the sides of Air Force One and we'll have stairs going up. And it eventually ended up where we had a huge side of the plane practical built around the door, but you could go into the Air Force One. We had to lay slab. And we built this huge structure so we could take the stairs up to Air Force One and the cast could walk all the way up into this set that we built. And then we built the whole interior of Air Force One on stage.

[A]

Right.

[D]

So it was a big deal. The structure we built was a little terrifying to me because it was huge. And I kept thinking, oh, my gosh, there's this big metal sail in the New Mexico wind. It's going to blow and kill somebody. But we had engineers involved. And like I said, we have an amazing welder who's worked with this group for, I think, since Breaking Bad.

[B]

Peter.

[D]

Peter. And he. He's a genius. And so he figured all this out. We had a lot of airplane parts, too. We went to the airplane graveyard in Arizona. Diane went with Chet, our art director. And they kind of picked parts and stuff, and we put them all together. But we had the door that we needed. And we kind of built everything around that door.

[A]

Is that the one in Tucson?

[C]

Yes, out Tucson. Outside of Mesa.

[B]

Outside of Davis Motham.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's where I grew up, mostly in Tucson area, Arizona. And I've seen the, you know, the sort of graveyard of all those. It's just like airplane, airplane, airplane, airplane. I mean, just like thousands of airplanes. Like millions of parts of different airplanes, multiple, 747.

[D]

And then we got the landing gear, the wheels and stuff for the landing gear there, too, which was super important.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The nose. The nose wheel. The nose gear. And that's Sarah Moya, one of our wonderful.

[E]

Oh, she's wonderful.

[B]

I love Sarah. Loves Sarah. Sarah Moya, that's her chalk in the nose wheel.

[D]

She's our onset dresser.

[B]

Our onset dresser.

[C]

I just want to that this.

[D]

All.

[C]

This really all started from just knowing how Vince was gonna wanna shoot it. Cause like anyone else on a normal, like, TV budget schedule, you would not be able to get the scope in the shot. And we knew that he wanted to see these people watching the plane come in. And he wanted to be able to carry them all the way from the ground up into the plane. And really, the only way to do that without kind of like the green screen curse, was to actually build as much as we could practically, so that the actors could interact with it.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And that was how it kind of all started. Because we could have done it with just a door, but it would not have turned out as great as it did.

[A]

So when you read that in the script. Because then that was one of the scripts that at least parts of it, I know pre existed. That was sort of like in your original conception, is that right, Vince?

[B]

Yeah. No, it was written quite a number of years ago at this point. Yeah.

[A]

Right. So. But when you read that, Diane and Denise, how far in advance are you starting to prepare? It's like, okay, Air Force one and a C130 and a commercial airliner way forward.

[C]

Those are the first things I had meetings About. I mean, like, before anybody even really came on. I mean, the first meetings we had, I mean, I. I started talking to our VFX house, which is Rodeo in Montreal. We started talking to them, like, almost immediately. And there was just so much. There was a lot of back and forth. And obviously Vince wanted to shoot. He was like, can we get a real 747?

[D]

Right?

[C]

And it turned out that was really, really hard to do. And also really, really hard to shoot in.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Really hard to shoot in. And so we actually. But, I mean, the corridors are tight and you can't. What are you gonna. How are you gonna pull walls and put a camera somewhere?

[B]

It actually would be small for a little.

[D]

And it's really high up. You have your. You know. So how do you light it? How do you light outside?

[C]

And how do you get your crew in and out?

[E]

And where do you have a place of safety, like. And seeing how it's done inside.

[D]

We explored all those options.

[C]

We absolutely did.

[E]

I mean, we.

[D]

We went to Roswell. There's another plane. I guess it was an army. An Air Force base at one point, but it's. It's another plane graveyard. And we went and we explored all those options and thought, well, maybe we can get pieces from there. Maybe we shoot it out there, you know, in their big hangar, what we build. But it ended up. We just. We just built the whole thing from scratch with our door.

[B]

Did an amazing job.

[A]

That's such a huge undertaking. And then, Carolina. It's true that you know how to operate and fly every one of those airplanes, and you had to learn that.

[D]

As a part of your prep for the.

[A]

For the show.

[B]

Method actor.

[E]

Yes, exactly. That was the coolest thing ever. Like the taxiing, the one, the C130. That was pretty special. And I still think about that and still blows my mind that I got a chance to do that. But also, the interior of the Air Force ones was unreal. Just walking onto the set and just seeing the massiveness of it and just the details that Denise, you did with that plane is just. Oh, just everything. It was just so surreal, so incredible. I mean, even shooting outside, that whole thing of just seeing the piece of the plane coming in and us reacting to it and then walking up and it was just so big that what you're saying, like, when you read it and then you actually see it all happening, it's just wild.

[B]

And that was. I gotta brag on, Carolina. Cause that was really. We do a lot of trickery, visual effects trickery. Thanks to Rodeo and thanks to Diane, a lot of stuff you're looking at does not really exist in the real world. But when you see Carolina taxiing that 70. I think 70,000 pound, that plane, the.

[E]

One that we had, could carry £40,000 alone. So just.

[B]

Yeah, so it's amazing. And it can. And it came from Malaysia when it arrived for us to shoot inside it. And you were actually taxing it through the Albuquerque airport. That's really what's out the window. Is really what's out the window. You had the wonderful pilot sitting next to you, making sure.

[E]

And they're incredible pilots. And I think, like when. When you said that they flew in from Malaysia. It's an old plane and 70 years.

[B]

Old, that very plane. Yes, it was 71. Now we're shooting it last year. It was built in 1954.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And he was so impressed with you that you were. He let you. I mean, he was. He was. It was very safe. He was in charge. You know, nothing bad was going to happen. But that was really you staring it and, you know.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

Getting it in there and applying the throttle.

[E]

I think what it was is that I was very curious and I asked a lot of questions. So he felt like I was, you know, very serious about what I was doing. Because I remember what Vin said that originally they were not sure if they would let me do it. And then we had many conversations and they said that I could listen. And so they allowed me to actually taxi the plane. And it's wild because it's this tiny little lever that just like turns. You would imagine something massive. It's actually not. It's really small.

[B]

That little wheel, right?

[E]

Yeah, it's like a wheel. Yeah, it's like a little. It's. It's tiny and this plane is so massive. And you're like, wait, how. Wait, what? Like, how is this tiny thing operating? You know, and that would have my. My feet on the pedals for, you know, for. For brakes. And they're just. Again, it's just nothing like just simple pedals. And I don't know why. In my mind, I always think it's just something bigger, more grand on these planes. But it was just very small and it just operated this massive ma.

[A]

Yeah, you think it's some gigantic, like a lost. Where they had like the huge wheel.

[E]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

The island. And that's what you'd have to do to move it. 70,000, 90,000 pound plane.

[E]

Yeah. But by the way, we had a moment where I did when I Was taxing. For some reason, I had my earpiece in, but it was getting distracted by. I was picking up the actual control tower. So I would hear the control tower talking to all these different planes and the pilot talking to me. And he was telling me where to go, but I was like, wait, I can't. Really, I can't. And the control tower. And at one point, he's like, go right. Go right. I'm like, what? What is he saying to me? What is he saying? He said, go right. I'm like, oh, right.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

Because I was heading for something else.

[C]

And he's like, oh, right.

[D]

I'm like, right, right.

[E]

Yeah, I'm right.

[D]

Yep.

[E]

Here we go.

[B]

You're kind of stealing thunder from the story about you being really good at this.

[A]

But, you know, talk about the.

[E]

I was great. I did it. I did it.

[A]

I'm happy. I did do it. But, Carolina, talk a little bit about the challenges of that character. I mean, you're. Because you're talking about a situation where you're acting, and yet somebody's like, yelling, go left. Go right. But as a character, they're just unflappable. And this is. You know, we're getting to actually know one of these others.

[E]

Yes, the others. Yes. And then old schoolers.

[B]

Yeah, the old schoolers are like Carol, the folks who have not been changed. Yeah, that's kind of what we call them in the script.

[A]

Right?

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

Who hasn't joined.

[A]

Right. But you're a person who is hyper connected to everything and has. Is completely confident to operate this thing. And yet, you know, you are. You're acting that, and then you're also interacting with people. There's this fine line between how much emotion is being shown and how much is that. Is that a complicated thing as an actor to play somebody who's so. So kind of. I mean, she's so enigmatic, but she's also so kind.

[D]

What?

[E]

I would love that. I mean, there was, like, a lot of different things that we talked about, and, you know, one of them was being an indulgent mother with Carol. And also someone. I mean, the way I would put it is like someone that holds space for someone's feelings. And like you would with a. With a kid when they're having a tantrum. You're like, you know, you're like, okay, they're having their moment, but I know that once they join us, they're going to know the bliss and the power and the beauty of what we're experiencing. And also, like, having we talked about With Vince, a lot is what you mentioned, like, being able to do all these different tasks and do it perfectly and do it really well. And we had a conversation about, do they have. Is it in their muscle memory? You know, if they're great at doing something, is it in their muscle memory? And that was one of the things that. Right. It's like when she's flying a plane, she's the best.

[B]

Like Jack Yang.

[C]

Can I talk about that?

[B]

Bob Hoover?

[E]

Yeah, yeah. So she's the best of the best in everything that she does. And that was an interesting thing to step into that of. Just, like, if anything happens, you're just not affected by it. You just roll with it like nothing. And learning how to ride an excavator, which is so much fun. Highly recommended.

[A]

We're definitely going to get into that and into the cul de sac. Right where Carol lives.

[E]

Yeah. So, like all these things, but you do it with such ease and such perfection. And I think the first days being on set, having nerves and is like, well, this character doesn't have nerves, you know, so that was very challenging because you have, you know, normally when people. When you do a scene and you playing a person that's a normal person, you know, you go, okay, I'm nervous. Give it to the character. Just let the character be nervous. And this is like, no, you cannot.

[A]

Right?

[E]

You cannot be nervous.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[E]

So there was, like, challenges with that, you know, internally for me.

[C]

But it was.

[E]

And we had many conversations like, who is. Who are these people? Like, how do they behave and how, you know, what is it like to be blissed out and happy, but not robotic? And they're real people that don't feel pain. They don't feel negativity, they don't feel anger. They don't feel, you know, that anger and these negative feelings or anything that's negative. It's like becoming more and more of a distant memory. And as obviously as the season goes on, so it was exciting, challenge. And sometimes it's trusting Vince, and sometimes Vince would be like, go further, Go further. And, you know, and that's. That's your brilliance when I watch it. And it's just like the humor that came from that to the taking it further and just trusting that you're not a caricature or, you know, and so it's just trusting that and seeing like, wow, that's amazing how it came together. And these moments that work. There's just so much humor.

[B]

I'm so glad there's so much humor. I too. I love that about the show. But, you know, a lot of times you'd ask me a question, which I appreciated how collaborative you are, and I try to be the same way, but, you know, a lot of times I don't know the answer, especially in the early going of a new project and these others that. We're still figuring it out, kind of. We're still kind of figuring out exactly what makes them tick and what's going on in their heads. And it's always kind of a leap of faith, you know, explaining what's going on with these people. I think they're untroubled. I think they're implacable, kind of unruffle. Unruffle, unflappable, all that.

[E]

But also have that in your body. It was. There was days where, like, you know, Carol had big feelings, and you hold space for that. And then I have two little kids who are three and four now, but they're a little younger. They're two and three, and they have big feelings. So I come home and they had their feelings, and I was, like, holding space for them, and it was just.

[D]

Like, what about me? Yeah. Really? I mean, you can find space.

[A]

Exactly. That doesn't seem fair. Kids.

[E]

My poor husband.

[A]

You also had to. As far as prep goes, you also had to learn how to greet the. The old schoolers once we start meeting people kind of from all over the world. And you had to learn to greet them in Hindi and Mongolian and Quechua and Mandarin.

[E]

Yep.

[A]

Did you. I mean, talk? I. I had recently had to learn something of that. And French. I recently had to learn something in Mandarin for my sister's wedding. I officiated, and a third of the people there were from China. It is very difficult. I found just. And just that language, just how musical it is and how the rules are so different.

[E]

And also, one sound. There's like, one word has four different sounds, and that means they have four different meanings. So you have to be. You have to hit that sweet spot.

[A]

Otherwise, it's a completely different word.

[E]

Yeah. Yeah. It's incredibly difficult language.

[D]

Did you.

[A]

Did you. Were there multiple, like, linguists working? I mean, how did that happen on set? Were there advisors?

[E]

I got a recording for each one. I got a written phonetically. I had it written, and I would ask them to do recordings very slowly, so then I could just, like, listen to it and do it again and again and again.

[C]

Do we have people?

[E]

I don't know if we had somebody on set. Did we. For French? We did.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though samba's fluent French speaker, as were several.

[C]

I think Amra and Haluna spoke Mongolian, so they were able to help. Right. And then I think Piyush spoke Hindi, right?

[D]

Or maybe.

[B]

Yes, Piyush. And Viji.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, Viji did.

[E]

Yes, yes, yes, for sure. So we did. Yeah, so we did.

[B]

But every now and then we'd have a linguist there as well, on top.

[E]

We did, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just to make sure everything was kosher. But that's, you know, the asshole writers, you know, I'm gonna have. Okay, so in this scene, Force One lands, and then the lady says 14 different things in 27 different languages. The original version of it was this long. It was a lot longer than just, hello, thank you for coming. It was like. It was a paragraph page.

[E]

I think I might have asked you. I was like, vince, are you sure? I think I might have been like, are you sure you really want me to say this? Like, even that many languages, you're like, yes, I do.

[B]

Well, you did great, by all accounts. What do I know? I don't speak any of those languages, but by all accounts, you did great.

[E]

Thank you. It was so much fun.

[A]

I think it sells the authenticity of how interconnected all these people are now. As opposed to if Zosia had just had those UN earwigs and was like, here, put those on. And, you know, and then just. That solves it, I think. The fact that flawlessly, she can communicate with everybody without even blinking, I just. I think that's so cool. I just. It's such a.

[D]

It's.

[E]

It's. Yeah, it is. And it's also so fascinating if that was like, if I have had access to all the languages in the world, like, what an incredible thing to have. You know, I have friends, actually, that speak seven languages. I only speak two.

[B]

You only speak, too? As a humble friend.

[E]

But I have friends that speak seven languages. And apparently, once you learn Spanish, if you know, Spanish, like, Italian, French come very easy. And, you know, for me, I think Russian and obviously Czech comes easier if I was going to learn those languages. But, yeah, seven languages and, you know, and have a friend who's fluent in seven languages.

[B]

It's incredible.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

I really want to talk about the cul de sac where Carol lives. My. My introduction to seeing it was in the office. We have sort of like. Like architectural. Like a drawing of the. Of the neighborhood and then, you know, photographs as it started going up. Talk about the conception. Because, I mean, it. I know that there were certain story needs that the neighborhood needed to have and, yeah, just talk about the conception of the cul de sac, the neighborhood, and sort of what went into the planning of that, because it's a completely constructed neighborhood from scratch.

[B]

I'm just going to. I'm going to throw this over to Denise. I'm simply going to say that we needed a neighborhood that Carol lived in that we would have complete control over, because we knew there's big stuff coming after many big things coming after episode two, that a real neighborhood owned by real folks who worry about their property values and want to sleep at night would not be happy about us. You know, they wouldn't be happy about us shooting in a real neighborhood. So we had to construct this neighborhood from scratch. And Denise and her crew. I want to let her talk about it here, because they just crushed it. It's absolutely amazing what they did.

[D]

It was my. My favorite photo is an early photo of Vince, and he's got a post it with a little cul de sac drawn on it. And he's pointing. He's like, this is what we need. So.

[A]

So it's like the Stonehenge moment. It is like a little napkin.

[B]

Yeah. And then I wandered off and had a hot dog. And then the adults went to work just like they did with. With Air Force One and with going to Spain and the Canary Islands and all of it. Yeah.

[D]

But he's very. He's very clear, and that's what the joy of working with Vince is. He's very clear on his vision and what he wants, and he pays complete attention to detail, which I love, because then it just is the best thing. Yeah. It raises the level of everything. You'd never want to say, that's good enough. When any one of my crew says, oh, that's good enough, I'm like, no, it's not. We're going to see it. We might see it. But Christian, our location manager, found some land. There were several places, because one of the things we wanted was we wanted Carol's house to have a view. So we found the right spot out in. I think it's west Albuquerque. Is that west northwest, undisclosed location in Albuquerque, New Mexico? Yes. I mean, no road went to it. It was just some land that we found that we could lease. So we found the land first, and then we started plotting out how the neighborhood would be. We designed six houses, and Carol's being at the end of the cul de sac, and we, you know, had to figure out which way the road went. We had to make sure that when the road curves that you feel like it goes on to more neighborhood. It just isn't ending right there. We also, there was a lot of logistics involved with production. We had to make sure. Drainage, Drainage, drainage was huge. And we didn't find out some of those problems till monsoon season hit and a couple of houses leaked. But we were able to fix all of that. So we started, you know, we designed each house. I wanted it to be like a custom neighborhood. So it wasn't one of these cookie cutter suburbs, but it was more of a custom neighborhood. We had a lot of meetings with the city of Albuquerque because the city was great. Yes. They had to kind of wrap their head around. Yes. We're building these homes and we're kind of doing it for real, except for plumbing and electric. But we poured slabs. Everything has to be weatherproof and safe.

[B]

Windproof. That's a big thing out there.

[D]

Windproof. Yeah. And then we knew at Carol's two story. We built the second story on stage. But you can go out on her balcony on location and it's a perfect view. And we did a lot of grading of each house up and down to where we could get that view. So the other houses hiding it. But I also didn't want Carol's house to be this giant thing at the end of the cul de sac. It had to kind of blend in. So as we went down the street, the houses got a little smaller, a little lower.

[A]

So I did not know that. Yeah, I mean, that that illusion is, I would say, is invisible. Yeah, no, we definitely can't tell that.

[E]

I didn't know.

[D]

I mean, I went. We went out there every day and it's like, no, house number four needs to come up. House number five needs to go down. Carol's needs to come up, you know, before we could start pouring slabs. And then we poured our slabs. And then when we went on the balcony, we realized, oh, I think we're going to see the roofs of everything. So we had to do each roof with skylights or swamp cooler or air conditioning or, you know, electrical and all that stuff. Yes.

[B]

Even the little breather vents or the sewer systems. Yeah, all that stuff.

[E]

Wow, that seems incredible.

[C]

We definitely talked about doing those with visual effects at some point. And I, you know, that was kind of on our to do list of. And then, you know, I don't know. First day we went out there and we went up top and I said, oh, my God, she finished the roofs. Well, I don't need to do anything.

[D]

I think it's just always better to do practical. Absolutely. And once we got up there, you know, we just kept going. And I said, okay, let's just do the roofs. Okay, let's. And then there was also talk about not doing the backs of the houses or the backyards. You know, they were like, well, we'll do it per episode.

[C]

Nope.

[D]

But it's like, no, that's not going to work.

[C]

So too helicopter delivering an excavator.

[D]

I think we're going, yes, yes, I read drone shot. Okay, we gotta do all the backyards now. And so we had a landscape plan for each backyard. And I was talking to our greensman, Loa, who is a genius.

[B]

Loa's the best.

[D]

And we had an earlier greensman who, because of the strikes, we were allowed to work to a certain point. And once we decided, okay, we're gonna start, we're gonna build these houses, but at some point, you know, if the strike goes on and on, we're going to have to shut down. But we can't just leave everything. So we had to commit to doing certain things before we could walk away to make them safe. We had to work with the EPA a lot because of the dust and everything we were generating. So we. I think we had 350 tons of aggregate. I mean, I know every rock and flagstone in existence.

[B]

Is it that much?

[D]

It was, and I couldn't believe it. And so we were calculating the other day how much, you know, was that, and we figured with the truckloads and stuff, it was that much because we had to cover all of that area. And, you know, before we went in and then before we broke for about a month and came back, and so we buttoned everything up, laid all the rock, but we purchased all the trees ahead of time, and the Santa Fe Tree farm kept them for us. And so then when we came back in January, which is not the optimal time to plant trees, or December, and then we started planting in January, February. So we had like 30 trees because there were no trees out there. There's nothing out there. It was just scrubby, and a lot of it was lava rock that we had to really dig down into certain areas, you know, and Zosia knows.

[E]

See, they should have asked me. Yeah, I would have told them.

[D]

Yeah, that's right.

[E]

I could have done it myself.

[A]

Yeah, well, that. And that's. I heard that story that, like a Daniel Day Lewis kind of thing. You went out months earlier, you with the excavator.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

You built a lot of the. The village from scratch. What an incredible amount of effort that went into what looks like. Absolutely. Like a real neighborhood. Well, I want to live in Carol's house so badly.

[D]

That's the good part. And the bad part. The good part is you. You want it. You don't want it to look like a set. The bad part is it's thankless because it's like, oh, you built that. People don't realize how much work and planning it took. And it was. It was a lot, but. And we also built a lot of Carol's interior out there as well. So we have her interior on stage, and then we have a lot of her interior out so we can look right out the windows and Right. See what's going on in the neighborhood.

[A]

I remember as that was happening, because some of that was happening gradually as. As. As things were needed. Okay, we need this kitchen. Yeah, let's get the kitchen done. And. Okay, we need this hallway. Let's get the hallway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, I know in some of the dailies, sometimes you could look one direction but not the other at first.

[C]

Like the kitchen in this episode when Carol's on the phone, like, what you see in the show is what was done. Like, that was it. We could not turn around and look into the house. Like, Video Village was right there.

[B]

Oh. I just want to say a quick thing to folks listening. This is an amazing marvel. Do not try to go visit is on private property. It is guarded by actual guards 24 hours a day. They're very nice. But they're not going to let you come visit.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And do not send a drone up over it because it is within the class Delta airspace of Double Eagle Airport over there on the west side of Albuquerque. And if you send a drone up, you will get busted by the faa.

[A]

So a lot of people don't know that about drones. And they just get. They kind of go willy nilly with the drones. But yeah, that's. They're very. Especially, like you said, in airspace, we.

[D]

Would have people drive up sometimes while we're under construction, and they, you know, just kind of looking around and then they would say, like, one of these house. Houses going up for sale. They're not.

[A]

We have the same question in the office.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And everyone's picked the one they want to live in.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

They're so beautiful. Denise, you truly did. And another thing, just so people know, they had the most amazing sunsets.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Like, most magnificent sunsets as well. In that area. Was just so beautiful.

[A]

Diane, you know, on, like, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, a lot more of your Work was done here in the office, but on this show you've spent like way more time on set, on locations, which has had huge benefits. Do you want to talk at all about the experience or the difficulties, the new challenges that you kind of have taken on with the show like this?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I've never been involved with something from the very, very beginning. So that was a real challenge and I guess a joy. You know, I mean, I. I was one of the first people to read the script, thanks to Vince and, and I was. I wasn't in the pitches, but we certainly were having conversations about how to plan and how to budget and how, you know, how we should schedule it and all that stuff, like very early on, before we even sold it. So I just had never really had the opportunity to be involved in something that early. And I think this is such a post heavy show. And my background on that side of things. Absolutely, absolutely helped us kind of figure out how we were gonna accomplish this. And then just being able to go to set, I mean, I spent probably six months, like I would go for a few weeks at a time and then come back. And I was in all the meetings and absolutely being able to have that kind of like overhead view of everything. Cause I was the only one that was kind of coming back here. Cause Vince doesn't do a ton of posts like while we're shooting. Cause he needs to be focusing on. And especially this show was new. We were trying to figure out what story we were telling and how these others would need to behave and how everything needed to look. And we were building the houses as we were going and we were deciding all of these, making all these very important creative decisions that he had to really put his time on. So like, part of it was me just kind of going back and forth and making sure that it's all adding up in post that what we have, what we're shooting is coming together and that it's actually making a show that is what Vince intended to make. And so I found the time spent on set to be absolutely invaluable for just understanding Vince's vision and helping put the pieces together and make the show. Because questions would be asked on set that would change other things. You know, like there's so many things. You read the script and you kind of think one thing, but then in the execution it raises different questions. And you have to kind of work that out with the DP and the production designer and the wardrobe, you know, the costumes, like so much of the others, is kind of how they dress and how they move through the world and how good they are at everything. And trying to make people understand, it's a very difficult concept. It makes a lot of sense when you watch it. But if you're reading it and you're trying to build it, you have so many more questions than you have answers for so long. I mean, I hope I'm not opening up too much of, like, how the sausage is made, but I think that this episode benefited greatly from how long it took to shoot it, because we had a cut of most of it. You know, the Albuquerque portion of it that we could look at that would help us inform the stuff that we shot in Spain. And Carolina had many more months to understand who the character was, into the.

[E]

Body, more of the character, and have.

[C]

That confidence when you have to be in Spain leading this group of old schoolers who are. Who have not. You know, I mean, Carol has more questions than anybody.

[E]

Right.

[C]

Like, most of these other old schoolers are. Seem to be very content to just keep living their lives and pretending like nothing has changed. But, you know, Zosia is the leader of. She's. She's kind of our guide to the new world. And she has to have that complete confidence and understanding of what has changed and be able to explain it to everyone else, the audience and the characters. And I think that was so much improved by the fact that we had all this time to really answer those questions and have. It's such a team, team effort, all of this.

[E]

And I. So, I mean, just to add to that, absolutely. Like, I'm so glad that it went that way as well, because it's very true. I felt the character lived in my body and she lived more in my body. And I was able to have those moments more be freer and just explain it in a different way.

[C]

But. And it's also. It's how Vince plans his shots and it's how he introduces the characters. I mean, we talked a lot about this moment when Zosia comes to the house for the first time. And Vince shot it in a way that's very unusual for him. With the distance right between.

[E]

It's so great.

[C]

Like, we don't see Zosya in a close up until almost the end of the interaction when she offers the water. And you were very frustrated in the editing room because you're like, I can't believe I shot it this way. Like, I want to be closer. Like, why did I do this? Why did I do this? And I love it because it keeps you so Firmly in Carol's point of view. And, you know, she's keeping the world at arm's length. And this, like, beautiful, angelic person is, like, standing there offering help, and she doesn't want it. And she's so distrustful. And, like, you feel all of that and how the scene is shot and blocked and edited and being able to go to Albuquerque much more and see people and be in the room with people and have meetings and tell people it's working. I promise you it's working. Because everyone's like, I think it's working, but I don't know. And to be able to kind of tell people, I swear it's coming together, everything looks good. It's. It's gonna be great. And then we all were able to kind of keep moving and keep pushing and pushing ourselves.

[D]

It was a huge help tearing this out for the art department to have Diane there. I mean, huge.

[C]

You know, the collaboration of this entire crew is just. It's just magical.

[D]

It really is.

[C]

Everybody leans on everybody else, but everybody also knows they can lean on everybody else, like, if that makes sense. We're all here to hold each other up and whatever. Denise will come to me, be like, yeah, I can get this far. But, like, I need you to take it the rest of the way. And it's like, I got it. We always are talking. We're always. You know, there's a lot of trust communicating a lot of trust.

[E]

I mean, coming into this creative family, it's my first time, and just watching how everybody works together, it's really magnificent. Like, there's so much trust. And when Vince would ask, I was lucky enough to just listen in on one of the scenes and listened to Vince talk to Matt, who's a camera a operator. And just the dance that they do to get a certain shot, to get a certain moment, and it's just. All of it is just so, so special.

[C]

We would have failed catastrophically at this show if we did not have this history with this crew.

[B]

Yeah, I think you're right. If we just came in not knowing each other, I don't think it would have worked.

[C]

Would not have happened.

[E]

I mean, you know, a lot of trust.

[C]

It's just utter trust.

[E]

So much understanding. And even you with Ray, just watching the way you guys. Your relationship and the nuances that you guys have with each other and to get certain moments in. In her performance was so fascinating to watch. It was really.

[C]

Yeah, I agree. That was another really. That was an amazing part of being able to be on set, too. Was to see that. To see how you interact with the actors and. And how the whole crew, how everybody just finds it and fine tunes it, and that was. That was a real joy.

[A]

You know, what I do think is one of the finest moments, and we'll kind of close out on this is the scene. It's one of the last scenes that was shot. The big lunch scene where everybody gets together and has a lunch. And another podcast. We'll have to talk about Mr. Diabate, the absolutely wonderful samba.

[D]

Samba.

[A]

But that scene, it's one of those things. It's a scene that is effortlessly complex. And it seems you would never know how incredibly complicated that scene is. And in part because of your not rigid, but the desire to not repeat shots, it creates this far more cinematic feeling in the scenes. A scene like that, which is a very long dialogue scene with many characters, many points of view, all of it ultimately coming back to Carol's point of view and critical.

[C]

Critical, like information for the audience being explained.

[A]

Yes. And then, you know, and then drama happening where we learn that, you know, Carol has this ability to, through her emotions, cause a reaction in the others. I mean, how do you even start. And a huge shout out to Skip, the editor of this episode.

[B]

Skip killed it.

[A]

I mean, you could really teach it. You could teach an advanced editing class with that sequence because of the. Just the amount of material, the shot choices and how you constructed it and how you conceived it. How do you even start with a scene like that when you're getting into it?

[B]

It was. That was my least favorite scene. It wound up being one of my favorite scenes of all because of the wonderful, wonderful actors. Everyone did such a great job. My least favorite scenes are long, talky scenes with many, many, many people in them. I kept thinking, I would say to Diane and Jen, and sometimes I'd say, you know, and Trina would, you know, is there a way we can cut this scene out? Like, are you nuts? And it was. We shot in a beautiful place in paradise, basically on the north coast of Spain. The north of Spain there, right near the French border, a little bit west of San Sebastian. Beautiful, beautiful place called the Itoregi. That was a wonderful boutique hotel. Is a wonderful boutique hotel. They were very, very wonderful host to us. And so it's paradise there. It's beautiful in the Basque country. And that building exists. But then there's this gazebo that we shot the scene under that Denise and her crew had to design and build, and some local Spanish engineering firm built it because we needed. We basically needed Marshall Adams who did a brilliant job shooting these first two episodes, needed to control the light because.

[C]

We shot over four days, four straight days. And the weather is very changeable in.

[D]

That part of the world, especially in late fall, because when we scouted it, it was summer the first time. And we chose the location and everything was in bloom. Everything was beautiful. And then we're like, oh, it's now.

[C]

Guess we're going in November.

[D]

So we had to adjust a little bit.

[B]

It was a big, big scene. And I just. I always do homework. Anyone who's listening to this who says, I want to be a director, you can do it. As I always say, same with writing and show running. Do it any darn way you want. But the way I find most helpful is to go in with a really solid plan and then you can throw the plan away. But as a. From a directing point of view, I had, I think, 14, 15 pages of homework.

[E]

I remember I saw that on the plane.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

I looked at.

[E]

Was very thorough. Very.

[B]

Yeah, I make it as thorough as I can. I letter the shots and I got up to probably double C. That means.

[A]

Through the Alphabet multiple times. And there's 26 letters in the Alphabet.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

So that's hundreds of. Potentially upwards of a hundred if you get into the D. Well, no, I.

[B]

Mean, I. I don't think it was. It was like 30 or 40 shots. It was. It was a lot. It was a lot. It was a lot. I can't even remember it, but I.

[C]

You know, there's multiple cameras, so. Yeah, cameras, right?

[B]

Yeah, we have three cameras. Yeah, but see, the other thing came. Multiple cameras is great. It's a blessing and a curse, as Frank Black used to say in Millennium. Shout out for all the Millennium fans, because you have one great shot, typically, but if you try to squeeze another camera in, then you got to jockey your first camera around and maybe it's now slightly less good a shot. It's very tough using multiple, especially three. It gets exponentially harder when you add a third one in. We had a great crew. I want to give a shout out to the crew in Spain. God, they did a great job. Everybody did.

[C]

They did great.

[A]

Well, we're out of time, but this has been a really awesome conversation about it. And I guess we're going to hop on the plane. Who knows where we're going from there? So thank you all for listening and for watching the show.

[B]

This was awesome.

[E]

Thank you.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

All right, thank you so much to Carolina Vidra, Diane Mercer, Denise Pizzini and Vince Gilligan. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed and watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeek and Nicholas Tsai. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me. Your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.