S1E3: Grenade

Summary

Pluribus: The Official Podcast

Season 1, Episode 3: "Grenade"

Release Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Chris McCaleb
Guests: Vince Gilligan (Creator & Executive Producer), Denise Pizzini (Production Designer), Gordon Smith (Writer/Director of the Episode), Carolina Vidra (Zosia)

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners behind the scenes of "Grenade," the third installment of Pluribus. Host Chris McCaleb assembles a roundtable of key creatives—showrunner Vince Gilligan, production designer Denise Pizzini, writer/director Gordon Smith, and Carolina Vidra (Zosia)—for an in-depth discussion. The team unpacks the logistical, creative, and emotional challenges behind filming the episode’s major sequences, with a special focus on the elaborately constructed Ice Hotel, the explosive grenade scene, and the ambitious Sprouts supermarket montage. Throughout, the conversation offers a window into the collaborative problem-solving and creative risk-taking that define the show.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Constructing the Ice Hotel (00:31–07:38)

• Inspiration & Design Challenges:
  • The episode opens with a flashback at a Norway Ice Hotel. Initially, there were discussions about filming in Norway, but pragmatism prevailed. Everything was built on set.
  • Denise Pizzini: “These ice hotels are seasonal...we kind of took that role on. It's like, well, if we were asked to design an ice hotel, what would we do?” (02:23)
• Materials & Techniques:
  • The team researched plastics to simulate ice and sourced plastic cubes from Germany for authenticity.
  • Styrofoam was heavily used, sculpted by union artists sourced from Atlanta, LA, and Albuquerque.
  • Realistic effect achieved by blending real "snow" textures with faux ice blocks.
• Lighting & Atmosphere:
  • Close collaboration with DP Paul Donaghy and the gaffer, Waylon, to design atmospheric lighting reminiscent of the Northern Lights.

2. Adapting the Script to Production Realities (08:36–13:35)

• Scripted sequences often changed due to time and budget constraints. For Carol’s return from Spain, an elaborate sequence was condensed into a single, emotionally charged moment.
  • Gordon Smith: “We focused it in on just that one moment rather than a bunch of moments that kind of made her sad. It was one moment.” (11:25)
• The streamlined scene became a powerful anchor for Carol's grief and transition.

3. Carol and Zosia’s Emotional Dynamic (13:35–14:45)

• The interplay between Zosia’s well-meaning attempts to comfort Carol and Carol’s stoic resistance is repeatedly highlighted.
  • Carolina Vidra: “These moments that their emotional intelligence is so great, but they miss the mark and...then they get to evolve from that, which is great.” (13:00)

4. The Grenade Sequence: Practical Effects and Cinematic Tension (14:53–23:21)

• Practical Explosion:
  • The explosion was filmed practically with Styrofoam, balsa wood, and air cannons for safety.
  • Gordon Smith: “Everything that's blowing in is Styrofoam and balsa wood...It's blowing in off of air cannons.” (15:27)
• Stunts and Safety:
  • Actors rehearsed their falls with knee pads and stunts support, executing the moment in just two takes with live reactions.
  • Carolina Vidra: “You can prepare yourself, but once you...your body has its own natural reaction to things.” (16:43)
• Design and Planning:
  • The set was constructed to withstand damage, with special attention to window placement and wall reinforcements to facilitate the explosion.
  • The grenade’s mechanics (timing, trajectory) were meticulously researched for authenticity and Hollywood impact.
  • Vince Gilligan: “The very design of the front of Carol's house in large part was colored by...the fact that we wanted to have a hand grenade scene.” (23:49)

5. Kinetic Camera Techniques for Aftermath (24:47–26:50)

• To convey chaos after the explosion, the team used practical lens shifts—physically reseating the lens mid-shot for a “fractured” effect, inspired by David Lynch.
  • Gordon Smith: “There's a moment where David Lynch took the lens out of the camera and it does a weird, unfocusing effect...We tried that here.” (25:17)
• Editing choices, like removing frames, heightened the sense of subjectivity and disorientation.

6. Acting, Auditions, and Character Embodiment (28:28–31:14)

• Carolina Vidra recalls her chemistry read and the unique demands of playing an “other” whose affect is markedly distinct.
  • Carolina Vidra: “The others don't [react]...they just have to hold space and just have to wash over them, just like, you know, like nothing.” (31:14)
• Emphasized how her and Rhea Seehorn’s (Carol) dynamic grounded the emotional heartbeat of the episode.

7. The Logistics and Choreography of the Sprouts Sequence (31:26–37:29)

• Supermarket Challenge:
  • Shooting in a real Sprouts store was only possible during tightly constrained windows, requiring overnight set dressing and rapid resets.
  • Interior and exterior scenes were split between the real Sprouts and an abandoned Sears parking lot, the latter dressed and composited with VFX.
• Visual Choreography:
  • Ambitious restocking montage (initially conceptualized as a ballet) was curtailed but still required detailed planning with background actors and stunt drivers.
  • Gordon Smith: “My hope is that when people see it, it will feel effortless because it should feel like the others...just do it.” (35:05)
• Teamwork:
  • Precision in background movement and truck driving brought a feeling of seamless, other-worldly efficiency to the sequence.

8. Music & Visual Touches (38:29–41:34)

• Music Choices:
  • End credits feature DakhaBrakha’s “Sonnet,” giving a haunting end note.
    • Gordon Smith: “They're like a Ukrainian folk jazz band...really energetic and interesting and the music is cool.” (38:54)
  • Grocery store scenes feature Sade—a deliberate mood choice (“not making fun, just the right energy”).
  • “Golden Girls” used as diegetic TV in a scene, with specific attention to comedic timing and reflection shots.
    • Gordon Smith: “She does a lot of heavy lifting on that show with the comedy.” (40:47)
    • Vince Gilligan: “I love that shot of her reflected in the...dvd. That's a really cool shot.” (40:56)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Set-Building & Creativity vs. Budget:
  • Vince Gilligan: “You just run into the wall of reality that can sometimes stymie the swimming pool of creativity.” (08:36)
• On Emotional Nuance:
  • Carolina Vidra: “Even the most highly emotionally intelligent human being is going to have faults, and then they're going to evolve from that and learn a lesson.” (13:18)
• On Explosion Effects:
  • Gordon Smith: “...the trick of it is that's not [CGI]. We had to make sure that that was as safe as we could possibly make it. And, of course, part of that is everything that's blowing in is Styrofoam and balsa wood.” (15:27)
• On Acting the “Other”:
  • Carolina Vidra: “The others don't [react]...they just have to hold space and just has to wash over them just like, you know, like nothing.” (31:14)
• On Music Selection:
  • Gordon Smith: “I’m not making fun of Sade for being supermarket music. It just felt like the right cue. Sade is great. Golden Girls are great.” (40:05)
• On Practical Magic:
  • Vince Gilligan: “The best movie magic is the simplest always.” (41:31)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Ice Hotel Set Design: 01:50–07:38
• Practical Effects/Explosion Sequence: 14:53–23:21
• Camera and Aftermath Techniques: 24:47–26:50
• Sprouts Supermarket Montage: 31:26–37:29
• Musical and Visual Choices: 38:29–41:34

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Takeaways

This episode of the Pluribus Official Podcast offers a masterclass in television production, revealing the strategic reworking, logistical ingenuity, and creative flair that bring complex sequences to life. It underscores the collaborative, evolving nature of storytelling—where every department, from set construction to acting to camera ops, contributes to turning narrative ambitions into tangible, engaging television.

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For behind-the-scenes stories from future episodes and more insights from the creators, subscribe on Apple Podcasts. New episodes drop every Friday alongside each new Pluribus episode on Apple TV.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. If this is your first time tuning into the podcast, this is not a recap show. It's more like a freewheeling, unscripted roundtable discussion about the making of each episode. And if you haven't watched this week's episode, I strongly encourage you to do so before listening, because we'll be talking about everything this podcast is about. Episode 103, and the title is Grenade, written and directed by Gordon Smith. Now, this episode starts with a flashback of Carol and Helen at an ice hotel in Norway and then picks back up where we left off. Carol flying home from Spain after her not so successful summit. But she's not alone. Zosa is now traveling with her. Again, there's lots to talk about in this episode. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome our guests, Executive producer and creator, Vince Gilligan.

[B]

Hey, pleasure to be here.

[A]

Production designer Denise Pizzini.

[C]

Hi, Chris.

[A]

Executive producer and writer, director of this episode, Gordon Smith.

[D]

Howdy.

[A]

And once again, she's back. Zosia herself, Carolina Vidra.

[E]

Hi.

[A]

All right. As Case Drast the Zimzam yo yo man might say, what an episode.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I gotta love that guest so much with this one. Let's start right at the beginning. So refreshing to go way back to get some more time with Helen and spend some time in this ice hotel. How on earth did you shoot that? Did we go to Norway to film that?

[D]

I think, you know the answer is no.

[A]

He says, asking a question he knows the answer to.

[D]

Yes. Yes, we did. What are you going to do now?

[A]

Chris checks notes.

[D]

No, we did not. We considered briefly what it would be or how we could possibly pull this off. And then we came to our senses and threw this challenge very early to our incredible production designer, Denise. And Denise went, oh, my. You wanted me to do what now?

[B]

Haven't you tortured me enough with the Air Force One?

[C]

No, this was. And it was so different. And this was such a pleasure because what we did, when we saw there was an ice hotel, we immediately started doing all kinds of research. And these ice hotels are seasonal, so they have different artists that come in and design these hotels. So we kind of took that role on. It's like, well, if we were asked to design an ice hotel, what would we do? And we had some things, you Know, the way it read, they had to walk down a hall, so we had to have other hotel rooms. Our room was kind of in the round, and it had to have a big skylight so they could see the northern lights. So we did a lot of research first with different plastics and stuff that would look like ice, because, again, we didn't want it to look like a set. And we ended up getting these plastic cubes from Germany that looked the best. So we.

[B]

Germany has kind of cornered the market on plastic cubes.

[C]

Plastic ice cubes. And then we hired some sculptors to come in. And our theme for that particular room, I thought having waves and, like, you know, Japanese koi would be kind of interesting because it was round and the movement of the waves. And these guys, they sculpted it so beautifully, and I just love it. And then it was lit so well. Paul Donaghy, our dp, went in, and we worked with him pretty close on how this would be lit.

[D]

And Waylon did a great job. He was really excited about our gaffer, was very excited to work with Paul and you to figure out, where do we put these lights? How do we put these lights?

[C]

Yeah, it was fun. It was like doing an art installation. If you would have seen our stage during those days, I mean, I would have. We filled it with Styrofoam, and it was quite an adventure, actually. But I'm pleased the way it turned out. I love it.

[E]

It was beautiful.

[A]

How long does it take to build a set like that?

[C]

You know, who knows?

[B]

I mean, a couple of days at least, you know.

[C]

Right, right. Well, you know, we have so much going on at the same time. You know, it's not like we're just building that. We also had some pretty big challenges on that episode, so it's hard to say. But luckily, when the outlines come out, I can flag some of these sets that I know are gonna take a lot of time and have a lot of discussion and evolve into what they should be. So I think we had enough time for that. Cause we started out much larger. We had a lobby bar. We had all this stuff. So we reduced it down to, like, the hotel hallway and the doors in the hallway so they could kind of run down. We, you know, but we had ceilings. We had kind of a return hall, which had this butterfly that we could shoot through, and that's still there.

[D]

We do get a good shot, I think, of that. Yeah, early going, which is beautiful. It's kind of glowing behind them at the moment when, like, Helen touches the wall. Oh, it's so Cool.

[C]

When we had to cut it down, I was a little disappointed because I thought, oh, such a missed opportunity. But you don't miss it at all. You know, it's all in there, and I think it looks beautiful.

[A]

My understanding is that you found the best Styrofoam carvers in the business.

[C]

I think I did, yeah.

[A]

I just. Where do you go looking for that?

[C]

Well, it's a union thing. They're, you know, part of, and there aren't a lot.

[B]

Ice Carver's Local 426, the Foam Brigade.

[C]

One of them came from Atlanta. The other one came from la, who happened to have a house in Albuquerque. So we brought them in, and they did a fantastic job. And then we have a guy on our crew who's been with the construction crew for a long time, Andy, who does all kinds of things, and he kind of jumped in. And then we had a few people, local artists that came in. So we had a lot of. It was obscene, the amount of Styrofoam we used on this show, though, because there's more Styrofoam to come.

[B]

Good thing it's biodegradable, right?

[D]

Right, yeah, we'll have it for future generations.

[C]

But, yeah, but they were amazing. So we would kind of show them what we wanted, and they would be like, well, how's this? And it was, like, their test, and it was, like, good enough to shoot just their samples.

[D]

You know, I think if it was all that kind of plastic ice, your brain would start to see that it's fake.

[C]

Right.

[D]

But sort of mixing the, like, snow texture and the kind of compressed blocks of snow, which is real, according to the research, but, like, it makes it so you can't quite grasp onto it and see the falsehood in the same way, it just feels more real. I don't know how to put it.

[C]

But, yeah, I thought it felt pretty real, too, because that was always. The scary part, was like, what's this gonna look like? But, you know, they carved it, then we had to hard coat it. And then the painters went and painted it and then added some little sparkle and crystals. And then Werner brought in the, you know, the fake snow, the real fake snow, and put that all over. And when you add that and then where we had the cubes was one of my main concerns. But it's on the bed, and you have the skins on the bed, so you're not just staring at those cubes, and then they're lit nicely. So I was pleased with it.

[D]

Awesome.

[B]

And it was great having Miriam Shore back In that scene. Did you have a good time directing her?

[D]

Yes, very much so. She's so great and she's such a pro and we both are University of Michigan alums. And so I could sort of chit chat with her about that. Of course, she's like. She's had such a long and crazy career. And shout out to our Bjorn Thor Knai, who did a great job. And he had a tough bit there since he had no idea about any of these. It's both a flashback and it's a flashback to non others non main characters. So he had to fly blind through the whole thing.

[A]

And something that we also did with him was we had to add some lines of his. And for the longest time I was doing an impression of. Not a serviceable. How would you describe my impression of him?

[D]

Schwarzeneggerian rather than perhaps Norwegian. But good, good, serviceable.

[A]

You know, Gordon, one of the things that happens on TV and film anything is that you write a script and for whatever reason you get into the realities of production, the budget or the schedule, things ultimately have to change. It's a pretty common. It's a commonality with like all television. You just run into the wall of reality that can sometimes stymie the swimming pool of creativity. Yeah. Of dreams. And I certainly know that that happened on this in a couple of different. One, Carol returning from Spain. And then also the sprouts sequence, which I'm sure we'll talk extensively about.

[D]

I mean, both. Yes. I think this is the first episode after kind of the pilot or the pilots from episodes 101 and 102. And I will say that the line production staff, Chris Mirnoff was great. Were like. Because we had already a big build in the form of the ice hotel. And we had this sprout sequence which we knew was going to be extensive and difficult. And we didn't know how extensive and difficult at first. So it was like, hey, this is not. We can't do this. So there was some concern. And then some of that we solved before as we could. And then once we'd had like about a week of prep and we're like running into like. No, this is really. We were just having trouble figuring out how to do it. Jen and I went to sit down with Vince and go through the script and be like, hey, this is what we've learned from prep so far. Because you were busy shooting while we were prepping. You always want to kind of present a problem with a solution. You don't want to just be like, Vince, good Luck we have. Everyone's telling us this is impossible. What do you think? Like, we were like, here's what we're trying to do with the conversation we had. We looked at the. There was a first act sequence when Carol returns from Spain that was very involved. And it was multiple locations in the house. And it was like Carol essentially trying to get back to normal by willing herself to get back to normal by, like, I gotta do.

[B]

I've forgotten about that. Yeah, right.

[D]

I'm gonna get back to laundry. I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. And it was stuff that would have required us because of the way we have the house set up. It would have required us to be shooting on stage and at our backlot for, like, every scene, every little, like, half page scene so they were doubled up. It would have just taken us forever to do it. And when we were talking about it in my memory at least, we were just like, does this do enough work? Does this tell enough story? And so that led us to sort of ask, like, what's the real heart of this? Not just, can we do this more economically and more dramatically? And that led to. Instead of having a bunch of things that Carol's doing to try and move on, she's just getting mail that came from nowhere. Essentially, like, the last mail that's ever going to be delivered, she's receiving. What is that like? And we focused it in on just that one moment rather than a bunch of moments that kind of made her sad. It was one moment. And having that one moment kind of play opposite the grave. Seeing the grave of Helen, which was always the intention, was that that was where it was going to end with seeing the grave. But we just kind of felt like, maybe we can streamline this. And it helped, I think that cut, probably four pages of script, and it cut, I would guess, two days of shooting out of the schedule.

[E]

I remember that there was a lot of things. And then when you rewrote it, we got. And we're like, huh, interesting.

[D]

Yeah. And it is.

[E]

I know the scene you talk about, and it is great because there's all the elements of struggle and.

[D]

Yeah. And. And we. We liked it because it, you know, it focused a little bit more. It's the first time in this episode where it's like. Because we go from you just being. I love what you do when you're like. We think you're gonna like what's in this box. It's just like. It's so sweet and it's. There's no Agenda. And. And then it's like she opens it and it's just. So we don't know exactly what's going through her head for a while because she's just so tightly wounded. You're just like, yeah, she, Aisha, got you this. She thought she'd like it. She bought it on the tour. Isn't that great? From the Sharper Image and blah, blah, blah. And then she's like, I want you to never, ever mention her name again. And it's like, oh.

[E]

And it's one of those, like, oops, yeah, yeah, yeah. That did not go over well.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

There's a lot of moments, and that's what's great, is these moments that their emotional intelligence is so great, but they miss the mark and, you know, and then they get to evolve from that, which is great. And I love that that was in the script a few times, because they're not perfect beings. They're.

[A]

Sure.

[E]

And even the most highly emotionally intelligent human being is going to have faults, and then they're going to evolve from that and learn a lesson. So it's great. Those moments, I thought were so such great nuances into, like, what humanity is, what a human being is. We have faults and we learn from them.

[D]

You know, I think another thing I think you did that I love this moment, which is, you know, for the whole episode, is basically, it's you going, how about this? It's like you're a dog bringing various toys. Like, do you like this? Do you want this? How about this? Or a kid showing you, like, would you like this, Mom? And the moment where you bring the grenade and it's like, we. We thought maybe. We probably thought you were being sarcastic, but we didn't want to take the risk that you actually wanted this and disappoint you.

[A]

Right.

[D]

But there's a moment of. Oh. Oh, I see now, based on your reaction. Oh, you.

[E]

That you were not.

[B]

Yeah, it's one of my favorite moments of your. You just. I love that reaction of you. We figured, are you big sir kid? It was so well played. And you're so adorable. I love that moment. That's one of my favorite moments.

[D]

Yeah, it's so cute.

[A]

It's just.

[D]

It's really sweet and it's very. And like, you say it's learning, but it's the moment of, like, okay, I've learned I could keep pressing this, but I've been pressing it the whole episode. You know what? I'm going to go until she invites you in. And so it's A nice moment of growth, I think.

[B]

You two together or something? These two together are so good.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Ray. Carolina. I just. Carol is just so deadpan, just annoyed. And then your character, Zosia, is just so sweet.

[A]

Let's talk about that grenade sequence, because there are, I think, a few very interesting things about it. One, that several elements of it were shot practically, including the explosion. So do you want to talk a little bit about that? About rigging that up so that. I remember getting the dailies, and I was kind of. I didn't really understand what I was looking at at first because it didn't make any sense because there's our lead actors and the wall is exploding behind them. How did that. How did you do that? And how did that. What was the idea behind?

[D]

Well, the idea behind it is like, hey, the best version of this would be seeing them in this moment and seeing how their bodies are, how their faces are, all of that stuff. And it's like, the trick of it is that's not. We had to make sure that that was as safe as we could possibly make it. And, of course, part of that is everything that's blowing in is Styrofoam and balsa wood, and it's light, and it's not really going anywhere. It's blowing in off of air cannons. There's an air cannon that are. That, again, Werner, our SFX guru, rigged, and it blew through the walls, and there's a light flash that we had to queue up with it. So we had to do all of that work. And then we had to practice with you guys and, like, make sure that it felt like you could do the.

[E]

Fall, which it was stunts with. Yeah, we did some stunts to make sure that we. When we fell, we was all safe and the way we're going to fall. Yeah.

[D]

And there's two parts to it, because it's, you know, it's. What can you do? The sort of tackle and make sure that that felt safe. And then what do we need to see there? And then also the part of, like, what can we do with just sort of landing on the ground at the exact moment that the explosion happens?

[C]

Right.

[D]

Hopefully you felt like. I remember talking to you and Ray and just being like, is this okay? Because I know that this is like. And we walked through it and we sort of practiced it so that it felt like you'd be tense, but it was safe.

[E]

But I think you don't expect the sound of the explosion and things being thrown at you and that you get worried of, like, even Though we felt it. It was very soft and felt very safe. You still. Your body has its own natural reaction to things, and so you can prepare yourself, but once you. And you're like, okay, okay, okay, I got it. Okay. It's gonna be. It's gonna be okay, right? Yeah. Which, again, that's kind of why we.

[D]

Wanted to do it all in one, so that you could get that general, like, real reaction versus, like, you know, if you had two people clapping a board and saying, okay, react. We could have, like, composited it. And we did discuss whether that was the way to do it.

[B]

But did you actually fall on top of Ray? Because that's tricky. That's. Someone could get hurt.

[D]

Not from standing.

[E]

Not from standing.

[B]

Okay.

[E]

I think Stunts did that part. Yeah, we did it from kneeling down and then falling and then going down and. But we did. When they. Oh, yeah, we did that. When the explosion actually happened. Yeah, we were already more down on the ground and.

[B]

Oh, that's right.

[E]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah, it's a. I don't think we could have timed it otherwise, even.

[E]

Yeah, that would have been hard to.

[D]

Do, getting you from all the way from standing to the ground. And then.

[E]

Because I think also they had to, I think, kind of go from, like, standing but, like, in the air, kind of go down. Like, it was, like, a whole thing that you wouldn't be able to put, like, the perfect timing of, like, where to fall and how to fall. I think, a little bit off. Again, put the camera on the ground and.

[D]

Yeah, we sort of planned everything around that moment.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Like, that's the hero shot. And then I sort of was just trying to figure out, like, what do we need around it to kind of get to that shot? And that's. That was.

[B]

I think it's the same. Werner Hanliner, amazing head of the department of Special Effects, said. I think it's the same technology he used for killing Gus Fring and Breaking Bad. Like you said, it's air cannons. It's a big tank of nitrogen gas so that when you release it under pressure, it doesn't turn into visible condensation. Yeah, it looked frigging awesome.

[D]

And also, shout out to Waylon and our Electric Crew for getting that flash. Like, it happens in a pretty. Pretty perfect spot. You feel like you've seen fire. And obviously. Obviously, the way that. That Chris cut it and the way that our. Our colorist, Dave. Our colorist Dave did a great job.

[E]

But it was cool on set when we did it. Everyone was clapping. Everyone was just so excited. And they were Just like, oh, my God, that was incredible.

[B]

How many takes did you do?

[E]

I think we did two takes. And then I remember that whole night, everyone would walk around, be like, did you see that? That was amazing. That was like. Everyone was so ecstatic. But it's how well it turned out.

[A]

And when you see that explosion and when you see them landing on the ground in front of the camera and you see little pieces part, like particles interacting with them and hitting them, that's all real. There's no. There's not. There's not like a glass wall. It's all really happening. And, yeah. Denise, as the production designer, how involved is your team with the build of that stuff?

[C]

Well, we had to change out some of the window frames and the walls. And then we worked with Werner. Like, we did a lot of research how a grenade actually explodes. Does it come in, does it go out? And what does the debris look like? And then what's the aftermath? What does it look like afterwards? We are more about the after. Does it look real after the grenade goes off?

[A]

Right.

[C]

But, you know, he put some charges inside the walls. And we knew early on, thank goodness, because there's always a very comprehensive outline for all of these. So we knew early on that there was going to be a grenade and explosion. So when we built that front room, we made sure that it could accommodate that effect.

[D]

And we also, when we were talking about it, because it's like getting clarity across the team, because, of course, you know, everybody has a different vision for how an explosion happens. And a grenade doesn't really blow up the way that a lot of people think it does. And so it's like, there's really two explosions that are kind of happening almost simultaneously, which is the grenade goes under the truck, the truck out front blows up. So there's a flash of fire, but you wouldn't really get that from a grenade. So just figuring out all of the damage and, like, what's blowing up that's.

[C]

Causing what, right where it would actually hit. And you do want to see something, you know, because maybe if it's not that impactful, but you do want to see something just to kind of.

[B]

Yeah, you got to Hollywood it a little bit, because I think a real grenade going off might not even fly.

[C]

It's not that exciting.

[B]

It's exciting if you're there.

[A]

And we did research the timing of it, too. We tried to be as, well, accurate as possible with, like, from the time the spoon, from the time it flies out to the time it blows up is it's it's something like pretty close five to six seconds or something, and.

[E]

Oh, yeah, we talked about that.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

But also, like, having that. It was obviously fake grenade, but having. And you just realize how a little. Not flimsy, but that spoon is.

[D]

It's.

[E]

It's a little hard to get out, but once you do, it's like how quickly everything happens. You just let it go and throw, and it's just. Boom. It happens. It just feels.

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

I don't know.

[C]

You just.

[E]

You think of, like, grenade at something so much more intense and complicated, and you're like, no, just pull the spoon out and just let it go.

[B]

You pull the ring, and then the spring goes flying.

[E]

Oh, is that what it is?

[D]

Okay.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, the ring.

[D]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

That's my favorite shot. I love the explosion, but my favorite shot is beret. Like. Yeah, like, you'd give me a real hand grenade, and then it goes twing and goes flying through frame.

[C]

I love that.

[A]

That's. That's practical. That is a real.

[D]

We were worried at some point because it's, like, hard to figure out how to get the spoon to fly in a direction, even messing with, like, the shutter angle and stuff.

[E]

But also that shot after that, when that happened, I love when Gordon's like, okay, so you're gonna come up to her calmly, like, we got this. Everything's okay. Okay. Like, you just did that. We only have five seconds now. And I'm like, are you sure? This is, like, intense moment. You're like, yes. So that's what I want you to do. And it works so great.

[B]

You play it so great. It's like, Carol, if we may, still.

[E]

Polite, still kind, still, you know, giving her the autonomy to be, like, make her own decisions, you know, can we. Can we please? You know?

[B]

You played that really well.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

Thank you.

[D]

And I think it's a. It's a moment of emotional intelligence, because I think if she had a hesitation, like, no, I meant to do this, and I'm gonna. I was gonna blow myself up, you would have let her let it go.

[E]

Yeah, we had conversations about that. Because she has her own agency to decide what she wants to do with her life, and if she wants to blow herself up, we're like.

[D]

And you. You'd have been fine with that.

[E]

Oh, well, for me, yes, of course. It's like.

[D]

But it's that moment of, like. You can see that she's like, oh, this is. She's paralyzed with fear. And I think it's in a moment of emotional intelligence that's like, this was not intentional. This is not what you want. I can see that you're sick, that you.

[C]

You're.

[D]

You're okay with me throwing this away, so.

[B]

And, you know, Denise brought up an important point a minute ago that I had forgotten. But it's very important for, you know, folks who want to do this job. We had at least the outlines of all these scripts. We had most of these scripts actually before we ever shot day one of episode one. We kind of knew where we were going. But like Denise said, the very design of the front of Carol's house in large part was colored by, so to speak, by the fact that we wanted to have a hand grenade scene.

[C]

And the.

[B]

Her vehicle needed to be parked close enough to the window. And how should the window be shaped? It led to that sort of round. What do you call that? Like a bay window or something, but it's kind of rounded.

[C]

Just round. Yeah.

[B]

And then we're out there measuring it. Can you throw a grenade from the window to where the cars, whatever vehicle she's driving is parked?

[D]

And.

[B]

Yeah, it's amazing when you have the time, or rather when you know where you're going. Story wise, it helps so much. It's a wonderful blessing.

[C]

All of that, like, just her breaking into her own front door. Can the neighbors see it from there? I mean, all of that plays in. And. And a lot of that was taken from the outlines. That kind of drove how we designed that whole neighborhood, you know, of what happens. And the more we knew, like, what happens to other houses, we could plan ahead for that.

[B]

Does she have a big enough backyard to bury her loved one?

[A]

All driven by narrative needs and narrative decisions.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Something else that happened in that aftermath of that scene that I think is really interesting. Gordon was having the camera techs unseat the lens and kind of go, like, have it practically moving the lens in and around to kind of enhance the chaos of that moment as Zosia is bleeding out and Carol is trying to save her life.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you want to talk about that? Sure.

[D]

I mean. Well, we. I think I'd seen something of a behind the scenes of Lost highway or saw a scene from Lost highway that reminded me that, like, there's a moment where David lynch took the lens out of the camera and it does a weird, unfocusing effect. And it's like right when you. When the lens is seating, it kind of jumps around. And so I said to Paul, I'm like, you know, this is supposed to be like a kind of impressionistic and Fractured kind of feeling like, what if we tried that here? Just taking it out and reseeding. And it's very hard to do. And all credit to Chris Norris, our incredible A camera first ac. His job is generally, you know, finding the focus and making sure everything's sharp, but he's also taking the lens out and putting it back in and finding the focus through the course of the shot. And it makes. That's where the camera. It jumps around a bit. It looks a little bit like fraction. It's not an editorial trick. It's practical.

[B]

And you don't want to drop that damn thing. It's worth like $20,000.

[A]

Those lenses are very expensive.

[D]

And you want to be able to do it so that the timing is right and it's not just fuzzing out and you kind of feel it, but without. So they.

[A]

Very kinetic. And then. And then I think we took it a little further with some of it and we did remove frames here and there just to. To really make it more. It's really subjective. Yeah, the scene is way more subjective and kind of from Carol's point of view, kind of that just the way that it's feeling for her, I think is. Is really represented visually, which I think is very cool. And. And. And again, practical. Yeah, there's not. We're not digitally manipulating that image in that way. It's. It's actually happening with the. The lens and then, you know, and then just removing frames here and there.

[D]

Yeah. And the blood. The blood effect. So it's when. When we're watching the. The bleeding and you kind of on the ground and all of that. Hopefully it adds a little bit of a. A flavor to be in Carol's head of how completely discombobulated this. Not only did she not intend to. To blow up this grade, she. She really had no idea that this was a real grenade. She just assumed that they're liars and they'd be like, oh, you wanted a grenade. Look, we'll make you happy. And that there's nothing to it, but. But she learned something very important.

[B]

You did a great fall.

[A]

I was just going to ask about that very much. How much prep went into that and was that frightening? I mean, I know that there's some movie magic, the stones are padded, but you're really. I mean, with no hesitation.

[E]

I don't remember how many times we tried it. I think we talked about it, and then I think I practice a couple of times. And then we just did it. And we also talked about, you know, when I Come out of the house of, like, how injured is she? And how, you know, these people, the others, when they get injured, they feel pain, as normal people do. Is there less in the levels of all that stuff? And. Yeah, so that was. That was. Yeah, we would just practice a couple times, and then I just went for it and we shot it, I think, two or three times. Yeah. And it was just more. Yeah, I'm sorry.

[B]

The part that makes me cringe the most is you drop it to your knees.

[D]

Because it was.

[E]

Yeah. So I was wearing knee pads. That's right. Thank you. I was wearing knee pads. And the padding on the. What it looked like it was. The stone. It was pretty thick. So it was completely fine. It didn't hurt. And so it allowed me to really allow myself to go for it and let it happen. Yeah, so that was. Yeah, it was great.

[D]

Another spot where I think you did a great job was just the performance of when you're, like, laying there and help is coming and you're like, don't worry, Carol, it's not me. It's. Don't worry, people are coming. It's okay. Like, you're passing out, you're bleeding, you've got shrapnel in your back, and. But you're terribly injured.

[E]

But I'm like, it's okay, but you're not.

[D]

Yeah, it's like you're. You feel the pain, but also you're. You have the sort of Zen of being one of the other.

[E]

And I love having all these conversations, you know, of just like, how far do we take it?

[C]

How.

[E]

How far do these people go For Carol, for the old schoolers, you know, and so it was such a great thing to be able to play that. That was fun. Yeah.

[A]

Can you talk a little bit about the audition process for you? Because just preceding that, the scene where she's brought the grenade but Shuba Mustu and the. When they're. She's talking about Aquavit. My understanding is that was the audition, the chemistry read scene.

[E]

Yes, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With Ry.

[B]

What.

[A]

What was the pro. I would have asked you in. In episode two, but I didn't want to give away the. The.

[E]

The scene. Yeah, of course.

[A]

Maybe talk about what that experience was like and then how it informed or differed from actually shooting the scene with her.

[E]

Well, what was amazing, because I think before the test, I got to speak with Vince and Vince took me through what the day was going to be like, and we sat down, we talked for a while, and that was great. So we Got to know each other, got more comfortable because it's such a nerve wracking process, you know, and it's just you just there and then once you're kind of like, all right, let's see what you got, you know. But it just felt really comfortable. And I mean, I was nervous. I was incredibly nervous. I was shaking my whole body. I was having an out of body experience because I was like, here I am meeting Vince for the first time and then meeting Ray. We sat around, we talked and then, you know, again, it goes to like, to Ray, she just makes you feel so comfortable. And at one point they asked if we want to step outside, Ray and I, and you know, rehearse the scene and all that. And I remember I was like, no, I think I'm good. Let's just. They just do it and just see what happens. And just, you know, playing with Ry and, and she's again, she's just so giving, she's so present, she's so there. And we just played the scene and then Vince gave notes and we played the scene again and, and I remember I said something to you, Vince. I was like, I think I'm smiling too much. Am I smiling too much? And you're like, no, not at all.

[B]

You know, you're, you're here. You killed it. You were the. It's a very tough role because as Ray herself explained it to me, when.

[E]

You are acting, you're reacting to somebody else and you always, you go on an empathetic journey with somebody. Yeah.

[B]

And you're matching emotion.

[E]

Yeah, you do.

[B]

If someone gets mad, you get mad. If someone gets sad, you get sad.

[E]

Well, also you react to their madness.

[A]

Right.

[E]

So if somebody gets mad, naturally your body reacts to that anger. And the others don't. Yeah, they just have to hold space and just has to wash over them just like, you know, like nothing.

[A]

I can't not ask Gordon about the sprout sequence. And it's, it's impossible to talk about having so little time to shoot in the actual sprouts. Thanks shout out to Sprouts for letting us shoot there at all.

[B]

Sprouts is awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

When I turned this in, Denise immediately was like, this sequence is insane. And I was like, what? We just, it's just a supermarket. We just, we just find a supermarket and choose like, no, this is insane. I don't know how we're going to do this with the ice hotel already. And like you say when you write something and you find out this was one of those. And yeah, we did have to figure out how to do it. It was it first we found sprouts. I think Christians got into. Got into it with sprouts. Our Christian DeBodoi, our wonderful location manager and said they might be interested. And when, of course, when you're talking to them, it's like, no, no. First they're like, yeah, sure, we'll. We'll give you the run of the place for a week. And we're like, that's fantastic. And then as it goes up the corporate ladder, those days get shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter and shorter.

[A]

They have a business to have a.

[D]

Supermarket business is they have a supermarket business and we have to figure out how to empty the store and then restock the store and. And all of that. So eventually we've sort of figured out a two state solution where we could shoot inside sprouts but not outside sprouts in the parking lot.

[A]

Right.

[D]

And we had a. There was a sort of Busby Berkeley esque sequence that I'd written for Chuck.

[C]

Ballet.

[D]

A ballet. Well, I had it written for inside the store. The restocking, where there's things are going up on the shelves and all this stuff.

[A]

Storyboards exist for this. And I was like, really lovely.

[D]

We just couldn't. It was impossible. We just did not have that because.

[B]

You were gonna see them actually restocking.

[D]

Everything way more than we did. Yeah, we see. We see the hints of it, but we were going to really make a meal out of it. And we said, look, we can make a meal out of it, but we had to sort of shift it to be outside and then figure out because the parking lot is in an abandoned Sears in a totally different part of town than the supermarket that was able to shoot with us. So God bless Sprouts for giving us the ability to shoot there at all. But it was quite a deal. I'm sure you probably remember more details than I do about how this.

[C]

Sprouts was really helpful too. We used a lot of their people that help us because we actually did empty out half the store, you know, and restock it. So there were a couple of overnight crews in set deck. And then when we went to the Sears I still had, we had shot on Better Call Saul, we had created a whole department store in that Sears.

[D]

That's right, the same Sears. No, no, no, that was Allison.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Michelle McLeod directed.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

And I, Joey Liu and I edited that.

[C]

Yeah. And I was kind of like, oh, boy, you know, because. So that's why when I saw the Sprouts thing, I thought, oh. Because it almost killed the art department on Saul. I thought, I don't know that we can do this, you know, especially with real food and all this other stuff. But thank God that Sprouts did decide to play along. And they were wonderful. Yeah, they were. And then we made the parking lot, the exterior of that Sears, our exterior of Sprouts, which worked out fine. And then we ended up dressing the trucks. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Visual effects. Making it. Yeah. Really? Yeah.

[A]

And those trucks are really precision drivers.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The reason we stay in some of those shots so long is just so you can see those trucks are actually hitting marks, driving with other esque precision. We could talk about it for three hours about that whole sequence.

[D]

My hope is that when people see it, it will feel effortless because it should feel like the others kind of just, oh, sure, you want a supermarket, we'll just do it. I think that everybody, our stunts team that had those drivers and our VFX team, because we had to do some compositing to just make that crowd feel like it was coming from everywhere and all of this stuff and figure out how to match. Because when there are a few times where you're inside Sprouts looking out, and it does not look like the Sears parking lot, and there's a couple times where you're outside looking back, and you just had to make everything match.

[B]

Neato or movement, choreography. And I worked with you and worked with the extras.

[D]

Yeah, extras were great.

[B]

They did a great job.

[D]

Nito and Angie worked together.

[B]

Angie Meyer, first ad.

[D]

Yeah, our first ad. They're in charge of extras and back or background action. Right. But we had so much precision that needed to be there. So Nito. And Nito had practiced with some of his key. Key people that were sort of dancer trained so that they knew how to move. And those people had to be filtered in with all these other people who had no training that Angie was working with. It's more complicated than it looks, I think.

[B]

Looks pretty complicated.

[A]

It's, again, one of those effortlessly complex things where it's like. It feels like a dance, and it feels like everything just slots in perfectly. But the amount of detail that went into actually making it a reality is just staggering.

[D]

And, of course, credit to you for figuring out how to. To put these pieces.

[B]

Beautiful.

[D]

It's incredible. Like, I remember seeing it and going, okay. Like, it's just. I'm so tense when I'm seeing a sequence like that. And I'm like, is this going to work? At all. And it's like, when I saw your cut, I'm like, okay, we can. We'll figure that this is going to work. It's not going to be a disaster.

[A]

I'm glad you're happy.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

How many days total inside the real sprouts and outside the Sears? Do you guys remember how many days total you shot?

[D]

I feel like we had, like two days in sprouts with, like, correct breakdown and break. And so I think it was three days total. But one of those was like an overnight dress and then an outside looking in. And so maybe three days shooting total. And then four.

[A]

Yeah, three or four at Sears. One of those just truck driving. One of them just unloading. It's a real testament to.

[D]

Yeah, there was a lot of crew.

[A]

The crew that. And like you said, the extras that are doing such great work, they did a great job.

[D]

Marie found some good people. Marie, our background caster.

[B]

That's right. She did.

[D]

I gotta give a shout out to Robert Bailey, who was our DHL guy, just because that end moment.

[A]

And I like the squeak in his shoes and his performance, it's so tricky because he has to have the same kind of energy that Carolina that you're bringing to Zosia. And you have so much more time to inhabit that character and understand. And he has the same feelings, the same expressiveness. And I thought he just knocked it out of the park.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He makes me laugh every damn time I see him. He's so funny.

[D]

Yeah. And it's weird because it's like he's like. You say, Chris, he's continuing that emotional journey that you've been on.

[E]

Yeah. It's great to see all these other people come in and be the others. Right. Because it just gives you, like, the real feel for the world in a weird way.

[B]

We're giving a shout out to you because you're him as well.

[D]

Yes, that's right.

[E]

Yeah. We're all one.

[C]

You're all one.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

You're every woman.

[A]

As we, you know, we sort of leave Carol thinking about what her next move is going to be. We bring in that really great Daca Braca song.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Do you want to say how that came Came to be you got you and you. You've seen them live, right, Jen? Have seen them live twice.

[D]

Yeah, I want to see that. We saw them at the Ford last year, and then we saw them at a festival at Georgia o' Keeffe's ranch in Albuquerque last year.

[E]

Oh, that's cool.

[D]

Yeah, a little festival show that was Great. But they're like a Ukrainian folk jazz band. The lead singer looks like Rasputin. He, like, kind of dresses in a black cassock and they wear these big fur hats. But they're very talented musicians and really compelling. They're just very energetic and interesting and the music is cool. And I think Thomas sent us that cue. I think he sent us it to try it over the Sprouts montage or something like. Or he sent it for an earlier spot.

[A]

We were all something else. Or it was a later spot, maybe for something else. But I think.

[D]

Yeah, I think it was something else. But we went. What if we tried this for, like. I think we were all sitting there and I don't remember who said it, but we were like, what if we tried this at the end and it was like, yes. And then it slapped it in and it's like, oh, it works great. Let's just. That's.

[C]

That's.

[A]

We gotta go with this song is called Sonnet. And it's. It's just. It's spectacular. And one other musical note, Sade.

[D]

Oh, yeah, Grocery store. That. That is a.

[A]

That's a Gordon Smith.

[B]

I love that. I love that music.

[D]

That works so great. There was a lot of stuff that we were happy that we were able to get in and just.

[B]

The Golden Girls.

[D]

Like, Golden Girls.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

The Golden Girls here love the show and they're. I personally, I'm not making fun of Sade for being supermarket music. It just felt like the right cue. Jade is great. Golden Girls are great. I love that song. I feel like it was just the right energy for, like, it's funny, but it's not. We're not making fun. I think we're genuinely fans of. Of. Especially also of Golden Girls. Like, Golden Girls are incredible.

[E]

And, like, Golden Girls are great.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. It's so neat seeing Betty White.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Who doesn't love Betty? We had so many. I remember we were looking at it, trying to figure out what pieces we wanted to use. And our post team pulled together whole sets of, like, runs of Betty White monologues. And they're so, so good.

[A]

She does a lot of heavy lifting on that show with the comedy.

[D]

She does. She does.

[B]

I love that shot of her reflected in the. On the backside of the dvd. That's a really cool shot.

[A]

That was.

[D]

I was very happy about that. I pitched it to Matt Cradle, our. A camera operator, and he's like, yeah, that sounds like fun. Like. And we were sort of working it, and our Keith, our VFX supervisor, was like, I don't know if that's going to work. Maybe I can put it in in post. And then Matt came in and was like, no, I've set it up. Let's take a look. And he showed us. He auditioned the move and it worked perfectly. And it was like.

[B]

So the TV was really playing over his head?

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the TV's playing, and it's a real reflection and the timing kind of. We had a great playback operator that had everything so that we could do it practically.

[A]

So movie magic.

[B]

Best movie magic is the simplest always.

[D]

Yes. The best movie magic is the friends we made along the way.

[A]

Awesome. Thank you, guys. This is great.

[B]

Thank you.

[D]

Thank you. Thanks, Chris.

[E]

Thank you.

[A]

All right. Thank you so much to Carolina Vidra, Denise Pizzini, Gordon Smith, and Vince Gilligan. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed, including those bonus episodes. And watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbese and Nicholas Tsai. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me. Your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.