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- [00:06]
A
Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. And this is our third bonus episode. These are typically one on one conversations, as opposed to the roundtable approach of our regular podcasts, often cast and crew who aren't able to physically be in Los Angeles for our recording sessions. And that's definitely true. Today, our guest is coming in live from New York. So without further ado, please welcome our guest. You know her, you love her, and we already miss her. She's our dearly departed Helen herself, Miriam Shore.
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B
Hi, I'm.
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A
Hello.
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B
I'm alive. I'm alive.
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A
That's right, you're alive. In real life, you're alive.
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B
Yeah. In real life, I'm alive.
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A
Well, I mean, talk about jumping into this Vince Gilligan world. I mean, how did you get involved in the show? What was the process like of coming aboard?
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B
Well, it was super secretive, right? So I got an audition for the new Vince Gilligan show, right? And right away, like, everyone's excited. Like, all the agents and managers of me and every. I'm like, whoa, secret, right? Like, but we know it's his new thing. We know his track record of brilliant writing and interesting show. I mean, beyond interesting shows. So you're just. Right away, you're so excited because you already are. Just like, well, I want to read it, right? Like, you feel like you have an in before anyone, which I've already established that I'm nerdy viewer, so that already gives me so. So I'm just so geeked. But the scene I get is not from the show. It's sort of written to give you a sense of this relationship between Helen and Carol, but not the plot at all, but the emotional beats of kind of who these people are to each other with no background, right? And what is a testament to the writers, not just Vince, but all the writers on the show, is that even that short scene, I read it and I knew immediately who these people were to each other. Having no background, I could tell from the dialogue what that relationship was, what Helen's role, although she wasn't Helen in the, you know, like Woman two role or what her role was in this scene, which is sort of like, that's such a difficult task as a writer. And yet even that scene, I was like, oh, I know what I'm supposed to. I know who this person is. To this other person and vice versa. Because I'm always annoyed when I don't get all the info. Right. Like, I'm like, I want everything. Tell me, like the. You know, the. What kind of car does she drive? Like, tell me everything about her so that I.
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A
Sure.
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B
And when you don't have that, you're like, ah, how do I do this?
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A
Yeah. I imagine that's especially difficult as an actor when you're trying to, you know, craft a character and bring reality to it. When you have, like, the scantest amount of information, that's. That. That's gotta be much more difficult.
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B
Yeah. And I usually get pretty dang grumpy about it. Right. Like, a lot of curmudgeony grumbling happens when I get stuff like this. I'm like, hard enough to do my job as it is. And I suddenly have a southern accent, too. It's really weird. No, I felt a little curmudgeony and then read the scene and was like, oh, but they've written me this perfect scene.
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A
Had you ever met Rhea or worked with Rhea in the past?
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B
No. I got a phone call from Rhea once I was cast. And on that phone call, I mean, within three seconds, I was like, so this is my best friend I just hadn't met yet.
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A
Oh, right.
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B
Like, I just clicked with her. Well, she naturally is a human that I feel like a lot of people feel that with because she is such a generous, hilarious, wonderful human. So I think a lot of people feel that with her. But I really just. Something about our relationship, instantly we felt like, connected, which is great because it lets you. You know, there's. We didn't have to build that. It just felt so natural to be her friend and confidant.
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A
She has talked about it on the podcast, too, and we all talked about it. I mean, it is the sort of the common reaction with all of us and with anybody who sees it, like you're. The chemistry that you guys have is just. Yes, acting is a craft and an art and all of that, but there is a certain thing you cannot fake. Yeah, you can fake a real strong connection, but there is like a. Like you said that, like, I'm instantly best friends with this person, and you feel like the two of you, there's an energy to it that. That is just electric. From moment one.
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B
Yeah. Old friends who just met. Yeah. I mean, it's. It was something. That's a lyric from the song from the Muppet Movie. Okay. I mean, I would love to claim it. There were so many things that just Felt. Felt so easy, right? There are all these hurdles. The secrecy and the, like. The auditioning for anything is just always a hurdle. And meeting someone and creating this year, years and years, backstory and coming into a world. Because when you come into Floribus, the crew and Ray and Vince and the writers and the producer, these are people who already are family. The welcoming into that family was instantaneous. So generous and kind and warm and fun. I mean, it really was a dream job because I love sci fi. I love shows that demand that the viewer be a participant intellectually. And unfortunately, I feel like sometimes television can take us in the exact opposite direction. But this kind of television really leans into that beautifully. Right. And I love the whole excitement of this world building and then that I got to be a part of. It was just, you know, dream come true. Check.
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A
That's. I love hearing that, you know, something that we. We've talked about about Carol. We talk a lot about Carol. I mean, she's so acerbic. And she's. She can be. Speaking of curmudgeons, she can be that curmudgeon. And it seems like Helen is. She has this energy that kind of gives the audience permission to. To like Carol because it certifies she's not always like this. Can you talk at all about your process of sort of creating that character? I mean, it's a person who we need to get to know in very few short kind of strokes, right?
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B
Because you have to care that she dies, right? You have to feel that. You have to feel that loss, or it kind of doesn't work. So I can't focus as an actor on being someone people like. That's really, like, not a good. That's a trap, right? Like, oh, okay, I have to be likable, America like me. That's not gonna work really well for me anyway. But what I can do is show that I love and support someone else. And through that, you can do exactly what you said, which is like, oh, well, she finds Carol lovable. There must be something there. I think you start with a superstar, Rhae, as just someone you just intrinsically are drawn to. So she can then lean into what's the difficulties and prickly parts of Carol. Beautifully. And we're right there with her because it's clear she's intelligent. And I just think all the things that drew me to Rhae, I just. I didn't have to work that hard. Cause I just let that be what drew Helen to Carol, right? It's already all there, so that was pretty easy. And the deep intelligence and the. You know, when you see someone that you love who is afraid of being hurt, you just want to protect them. And I saw sort of Helen as someone who was like, you can engage with the world, and if the world comes back at you to hurt you, I will fiercely protect you. Don't you worry. You know, I got you. I'm here. So. So let me just hold your hand while we do this thing that you're scared of, which is that you're gonna be rejected, you're gonna be hurt, and I'm not gonna let that happen.
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A
Yeah, very human, natural things that happen. And to have somebody who's got your back like that.
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B
Yeah, that's a partnership. I mean, when you're in a partnership and then you get to play roles, right? Like, when you're in a partnership, if one of you is having a bad day, it frees you up to have a good day and vice versa. Right. If you. If you know someone's going to be there to, like, help us have a good time here, then you can sort of relax and be the curmudgeon in that moment. And I think something that's fun about playing Helen is that she's obviously the kind of person who can take that on a lot more, can shoulder that load. I'm not necessarily like that. I like to think I'm like that for my kids, for, you know, my loved ones and my husband and my friends. But I like to play someone who has even a greater capacity for that, because then I just kind of have to find that in myself, too.
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A
I love hearing that. It definitely pays off. I mean, because like you said, you know, when Helen, when she falls, that incredible fall and those moments, and Carol suddenly seeing this person who's been, you know, oh, boo hoo, so hard to be rich, so hard to go on a book tour and have everybody love me and pay me money to see that suddenly change. We know immediately why is. Because we feel it. Because we feel it for Helen. And that's just a testament to everything you just said about the way that you're approaching that character.
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B
They clearly make each other laugh, too.
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A
Right?
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B
Which is something that Rhea and I would do constantly, probably much to the chagrin of everyone on set, when they'd be like, all right, calm down and do your job now, please. We had so much fun being so. Such goofballs together. And I do think that that's one of the other things that Helen can do for Carol, which is that she could just turn that wit Right back around on her.
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A
Sure.
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B
And that they can have fun in that way.
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A
It's like kind of like gentle ribbing, kind of like a gentle heckling a bit.
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B
Yeah. I'm so drawn to anyone who has a really good sense of humor, even if it sometimes is turned right back on me. That's also. That's a really good tool when you are having a thorny part in a relationship with anyone and is using that humor to, like, get through the bumpy parts is. I don't know how we would make it as a species without that. I certainly wouldn't make it without humor. But, yeah, that fall, that's not me. So my stunt double, who is amazing, and I was like, ooh, how's this stunt gonna go? What are all the tricks? And sure, there's a pad, like, you know, not that thick of a pad that looks like pavement. And I'm like, and then what's the trick when you fall? And then she falls. And the trick is that she falls. I was like, okay, so I'd be destroyed and have to go to the hospital if I just did that one time. And she did it over and over. Every time she fell, I was like, that's it. She's gone.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Then they'd be like, cut. She'd get up.
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A
Yeah. We need to bring in another stunt person every time.
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B
I. I'm so stunt performers.
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A
I'm glad that they've been getting more and more attention over the years, because, like you saying, they're performers. They're storytellers in their own right. They're also athletes, and they're also daredevils.
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B
On top of that, my stunt double, Athena Perample, she was a miracle. And also, just, like, her attitude, I'm like, oh, so you're an athlete physically. It also bring our artistry to this. And also, you're just like a human who has the capacity to maintain this sort of, like, good humor throughout all of this. That I'm like, oh, that's a miracle as well.
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A
You were talking about the wit that you found as Helen and Carol. And I think two places I just wanted to touch on that make me think about that are a lot of the improvising that you all were doing in the bookstore. The one in particular that is one of my favorite moments in the whole pilot is when you say, like, this is so and so. And her emotional support person or just support person. I love that so much.
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B
Emotional support person. Look, I feel this is where Vince was like, yeah, you guys. You and Ray just Go just do some improv. And Ray and I are both like, oh, Vince, that was a bad idea. We are not like, we're such hams. So, yes, if you give me a little leeway, I will start to be so ridiculously hammy. And that, that was an ad lib. It's because, you know, just. I don't know where it came from. But also Carol's fans, like, I for sure felt like the acting I was doing was that I was pretending I wasn't one of those people because that is more who I am. I'm more of that person. I'm more just like, that's who I am. I'm one of those people who rushes to show my appreciation for something that I value so much, but also is an expert and will tell you how you got it wrong. So that's, you know, I'm like, I felt seen. And also I felt the freedom to play around in there. That was actually, you know, Vince's whole thing. I always felt the freedom to play around in this. In the funny scenes and the scary scenes.
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A
That's so valuable not to speak for you. I imagine there was. There was also some playing around in the photo shoot that you and Ray did in creating sort of the.
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B
Our history.
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A
Yeah. The tapestry of their. And we have a lot of those photos up in the office, which is great.
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B
You know, Ray sent me one where, like, obviously someone was like, you know, do a sexy pose and we could not look dorkier. I don't think vanity is like high. I know it's not high on my list of things that, like, I just like, I don't really care. I don't need to be the most beautiful person in the. The room or county or. That's not up there for me of what's important. However, I do really, really need to make you laugh. And we thrive in that environment.
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A
I completely understand that. And then I wanted to ask about the ice hotel which we've just seen in this past episode. It was in fact not ice cold in there and you are all bundled.
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B
Up and yes, let me think. What is the opposite of ice cold? Hades. Hell on earth. Yeah, Those would be some phrases that just leap to mind when you are wearing a parka for way, way sub zero temperatures. And instead it is broiling and you are cooking. You're cooking your insides and you're having to act like you're freezing.
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A
Yeah. I mean, without giving away your trade secrets. Like what? I mean, I cut that scene and I know that it's not cold but your performance is, I think, what really sells, how cold it is. Because you. You sound cold, you look cold. I mean, there's a part where you're like, it's brisk. Which you know, is triggering for Carol because she's like, this is hell on earth. But, you know, the. But not because I'm enjoying it.
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B
Isn't this great? She's like, this literally sucks worse than anything else.
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A
Yes. And when you say you feel alive and it's brisk, I believe that you're cold. Is there some magic that you're. What is. How are you doing that?
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B
Well, first of all, how does acting work? May I say that it was brilliantly edited, and I would like to know how editing works, because that's a magic trick that is way beyond my capabilities. So bravo. Oh, thank you, B. Yeah. I mean, it's always a challenge to change your mental sense of your physical surroundings, which is sort of what acting asks you to do, right?
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A
Sure.
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B
And you have to trick your body into believing something that your mind is like, no, it isn't. No, it's not. And even more so when you're like, I'm cold, and your body's like, I literally have, like, four gallons of sweat in my underpants. Is this. Are we going to just leave it like that? So now I can say that's actually the fun of it at the time. I can be like, is it fun? Is it fun because we're throwing these underpants out right after this? Right. But, yeah, you just start thinking, like, all right, all right. What are the. What do you do when you're cold? Like, when you're holding a glass when it's cold and the glass is also cold, like, that hurts your hand. Right. Like, it's like, ah. And, you know, you just start going through all the sense memory things. But what was great was because I had to trick my mind into believing I was cold. That actually helped with the fact that I was about to pass out. I was so hot. You know, that's actually a trick you can do for yourself. When you are really, really hot. You can be like, no, I'm not. I'm actually really like, what does my body do when I'm cold? And you often do it. Like, when you're afraid, your body has a reaction. When you're angry, your body has a physical reaction. So you're sort of constantly tricking your. Your mind and your body into believing things that are intrinsically untrue. It is a really amazing thing. I mean, you watch little kids, they do it no problem. They're like, we're on a different planet. It's snowing. It's raining fireballs. The floor is lava.
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A
Yes.
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B
You know, and they're like, the floor is actually lava, guys.
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A
Yeah, yeah.
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B
And. And so if you can, like, tap.
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A
Into that, the floor can be ice.
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B
Yeah, exactly. The floor, the walls, the bed. Why do they need to make the bed ice? I would like to talk to the ice hotels. I'm like, that feels like a mistake calculation, guys. I was pushing. I was like, really? We can't go to Norway and go to a real ice castle. There wasn't. There was talk of turning the entire set into putting it inside the set.
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A
Yeah, I know. We talked about it.
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B
Some big talk on that. And I was. And so we were like, all right, guys, we are going to be so cold. Okay, let's layer it up. Wardrobe, everybody. We're all working on that. And then the day of, they were like, no, actually, it's gonna be hotter than the devil's anus. So there you go.
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A
You will be suffering today. Well, yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. I wanna give you one other shout out because during the editing of this, I think I finished working on 103, and then I went on a family trip. It was an international trip. On the trip back, we all decided to watch one movie at the same time. We started it, you know, on the seat backs.
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B
Aww.
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A
We started the movie, and that movie was American Fiction. And when you came on. On screen, I screamed on. On the. On the plane. In a good way, in a positive way. And everybody just loved your performance in that. You're so good. And to the listeners, if you. If you have not seen American Fiction, it's a fantastic movie, and you are just exquisite in it and very, very funny, and I just love that performance.
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B
Oh, thank you. And first of all, Chris, I don't know if I love hearing you say you scream when you saw me. So I'm gonna say scream in a good way. The positive screen screamed in delight and not in excitement.
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A
Absolute horror in excitement. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio pointing at the.
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B
Screen like, hey, yeah, I know. That film was really fun. Anytime I can sort of skewer gatekeepers of artistic that keep artists from their audience. And this is, again, book editor. So there's a weird. I was also on a show called Younger, in which I.
- [19:39]
A
That's right.
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B
In publishing as well. So there is. And actually, my very first job I thought about getting when I moved to New York City was at a publisher. I was like, I either can get a day job and be a, you know, copy editor, lowest level, lowest rung while I try to be an actor, or I can go wait tables and waste my talents that way, but free up my days for auditions. So, like, there's sort of this idea of being in the world of books, and books mean a lot to me. So kind of a running theme in my career and continued with this show. So I'm starting my own imprint. Everyone. That's what I'm saying. Just taking this moment. No, but thank you for saying that because I love American fiction. I think that film was a really big swing based on the incredible book Erasure, which I also read, which is incredible. I love people who take big swings at storytelling because I think we can handle it as an audience. I think we need to handle it as an audience. I think it's necessary for us to be challenged by the stories we read or watch or are part of. And so I'm glad I got to be a part of that and get to be a part of Pluribus.
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A
Well, we're really lucky to have you. And we're also, everybody collectively is lucky that the sliding doors went the direction that it went and you chose the acting path and not the low level copywriter because, yeah, there's so many great performances, including Helen. Thank you very much.
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B
Miriam, thank you. Yay.
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A
That was awesome. All right, thank you so much to Miriam Shore for joining us all the way from New York on this bonus episode for 103. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by High Bridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed and watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer, it's Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeeste and Nicholas Tsai. Executive producers are joined Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.