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- [00:06]
A
Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. And this is our sixth bonus episode. This is a more focused one on one conversation as opposed to a roundtable discussion. There are often cast and crew who aren't able to physically be in Los Angeles for our recording sessions. And that's yet again the case with today's guest taking time out of her very busy production schedule on another show to speak with us on the podcast. And she's always one of our favorites. So without further ado, please welcome our guest, costume designer, Jennifer Bryan.
- [00:51]
B
Hello. Hey, everyone.
- [00:52]
C
Hi.
- [00:53]
A
Thanks for joining us. You're partway across the world, also hard at work, so I appreciate you taking the time. I don't want to speak for you. I just have to imagine that this show is a real unique challenge because you're dressing everyone in the entire world. Can you talk about your approach to this show and how and if it differed from Better Call Saul or other shows you've done?
- [01:19]
B
Yeah. Yes. It absolutely differs, literally from everything else I've done, especially coming directly off of Saul. I mean, the one thing we had in common, of course, is the amazing Rhea Seehorn and our production team and my costume team that basically have been carrying along through our Albuquerque journey. But in terms of creativity, definitely more was expected of me, which is fine because I always want to give more. I always want to show more. There's a lot of clothes in the world that I would love to explore to put on the screen. And what was unique about this, which really does make it different from the previous mandates that I would get from Vince when, you know, when we're embarking on episodes of Better Call Saul or Breaking Bad, is that he said to me, I knew it was sci fi, but he said, I don't want it to look costume wise. I don't want it to look like anything else that you've seen on tv. He lists all these shows, which was like every single significant project in that genre of dystopian sci fi fantasy. You know, it's like, oh, my gosh.
- [02:40]
A
No pressure. No.
- [02:41]
B
Yeah, no pressure. So the challenge was really to have them look ordinary, then to progress as we will over the episodes coming up and into second season, had to have a baseline to start from, and then we'll start to see some physical changes in their clothes. What I loved about it. When you said about dressing the world, the global aspect of it is that the approach I took to meet his mandate was that cultures didn't matter anymore, status didn't matter anymore, geography didn't mean anymore. Because basically with clothing, what you wear is your message to the world for the day. You represent yourself in a certain mood. You represent your culture, you represent your background, you represent your status. Are you a mother? You're a soccer dad? Are you a businessman? Are you a barista?
- [03:38]
A
I know we've talked about it here too, and throughout these podcasts. It's like those little details say so much about the. The character. They say so much about the story. And that's. I mean, the way that you approach things. Character first and then story.
- [03:55]
C
One of the things that I take into consideration, and particularly in this show, is that the others, even though we're seeing them on camera as basically what.
- [04:06]
B
We would generally say in the industry.
- [04:08]
C
Background, I, in my design head, I elevated them as a whole to a character as opposed to people crossing in the background or what have you. It became much more than that because I had to set them apart from the none others, the other humans that haven't made it to the joining, those 13 special people.
- [04:35]
A
Right.
- [04:35]
C
And, you know, when we discover that they don't kill anything that's live, then I had to start to project into upcoming episodes like what happens in our clothing. I mean, it's very little in human existence that you can do without sacrificing another group of ectoplasm, basically. So I had to go, okay, look at them as one character, started to mix their clothing from different cultures. Since that didn't mean anything anymore, clothing became extremely functional. And Vince pointed this out to me and wanted this in full agreement that at this point in life with the joining the others, clothing basically should just be strictly functional. So there is no ornamentation. For example, you won't see somebody to pair earrings on or a necklace or a watch.
- [05:32]
B
They don't need a watch.
- [05:33]
C
They know what time it is. And also mixing up cultures down the line, you might see Hawaiian shirt with.
- [05:40]
B
A Scottish kilt and just.
- [05:42]
C
It's mixed. Because now they're going to have to get clothing from where they can get it. Only use the existing things that they're found in warehouses and what have you. So I did approach them as a entity of a character as opposed to background.
- [05:58]
A
That is so fascinating. I never get over it. We talk about that stuff in the editing room too. Just. Yeah, those little details are what make all the Difference.
- [06:06]
C
I think it does. And it also kind of makes it look like clothing, but subliminally your brain is picking up that there's something different about the way. Not only the way they carry themselves, but what they're wearing. And it will become more and more.
- [06:20]
B
Apparent as we go into further episodes.
- [06:23]
A
I'm just constantly blown away by your work. And just so much of on this show, especially with the others, is your costumes are helping to immediately visually define who these people were or who they were. Right, right. Not who they are anymore. Now they're all just this one. But I think it's so fascinating. It seems like such a unique opportunity, but also tremendous challenge, especially when you're having to dress huge groups of people. You know, in this episode, we have the James Bond fantasy sequence with old Hollywood lookalikes, which is sort of in stark contrast to the rest of this.
- [07:08]
B
Series, to what's really happening.
- [07:09]
A
Exactly. So how far in advance do you get that information? Oh, hey, just no big deal. But we're gonna have to, you know. What, are there a hundred people in that scene?
- [07:23]
B
Well, no, there were more than that. But I'll tell you how to tell you how far in advance. It's never far in advance enough.
- [07:29]
A
Of course. It's never enough time, ever.
- [07:32]
B
It's never our craft in television and in film also, but more in television is that you're constantly on alert because something's gonna get thrown at you. You better have the wherewithal and have it in your toolbox to pull it out. I did get an outline for the script. I did have advance notice that we were going to dive into Mr. Diabatte's fantasy.
- [07:57]
A
Yes.
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B
And do this whole Rat Pack Casino Royale flashback to the glamour days of Vegas. Because he just wants all the good things in life.
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A
Right.
- [08:10]
B
So in developing his character, I came up with this idea that I pitched to Vince that in the Congo, there is a community of men. They're just working class people. They could be plumber, electrician, blue collar, but they dress to the supreme, to the ultimate. They'll spend all their money on the finest designer things. And basically, it's like a 21st century dandyism.
- [08:37]
A
Ah.
- [08:38]
B
They will fly to Paris. They're not buying knockoffs. They're not. And they dress like dandies to the nines. And they're called sapeurs, the French sapirs. And it's the French slang for, like, clothes. You know, your gear. You wear whatever you're wearing.
- [08:53]
A
Young people say, you're fit, you're fit.
- [08:56]
B
Exactly. And it Is a real, live, living culture. Ooh. And I went, this guy needs to be a sapur, because a sapure, regardless of what's going on, you. He wants the best of the best.
- [09:10]
A
Yes.
- [09:11]
B
So there came an opportunity. And our actor Samba has such a beautiful body. He wears a suit very well, and he knew of this genre in the Congo, and we went for it, you know, tuxedo and the rings and the suits with the crazy colors. He got into it and Vince loved it. And I think it did a lot in terms of costuming to kind of help to support that character and how he's so self indulgent.
- [09:40]
A
Yes. But also, I think the fine line that you're walking, especially with Samba, with Mr. Diabate, is we also have to like him. And we.
- [09:50]
B
Yes. And he has to be likable.
- [09:51]
A
Yes. He's so over the top with the clothes, and he's so over the top with living out his. You know, he's like, cosplaying his fantasies. And so there's like an innocence or a naivete to that and to his character. And I have to imagine some of that is coming from the clothing that you've designed for him because it really informs us immediately and visually, in addition to his performance.
- [10:17]
B
Yes. That this guy is focused on appearances, wanting a luxe life, and is sort of open to this dystopian thing that is happening because selfishly, it's gonna afford him. That it's gonna afford him, you know, good times and luxury. And I wanna fly on Air Force One. And I wanna be in Vegas with Elvis Presley's suite, which, you know, we shot in, which is amazing. I had so many extras to dress in the style of those times. The glitz, the glamour. Yeah, it was very interesting because I remember we worked out of the hotel and then we'd have to walk across the casino to go over to the penthouse. And I was like, wow, Vegas has really changed. Because upstairs in the penthouse, I'm recreating the 50s and the 60s and the 70s, the lux time, the Rat Pack days. And I authentically sourced. You know, I have some great kind of open secret sources that I use that specialize in curated pieces of the 60s, primarily. And I basically found the real deal. Almost everything you see there is either we built it or it's authentic. A few pieces may be contemporary, but adapted. I never take anything off a shelf or rack and then just throw it on an actor. Whether it is in fantasy or contemporary, I always have reason to manipulate it, to change it and to put my Spin on it. And our crew was large. We kind of went in with a traveling crew because we still had work to do in Albuquerque. And then we did some local crew in Vegas, which were great because they're accustomed to handling the big shows and all of that big high end productions that come in. So that's what I did. I had a really good support team, assistant, costume designer, supervisor. My set costumers that work with me in Albuquerque flew in. So we had some continuity and then we had some local underground support help. It was fun. I just love being able to kind of recreate those looks. So that's what's wonderful about this show, that I get to go in and out of people's fantasies and realities and go back into what was really happening in Carol's world, you know, what's happening around her.
- [12:51]
A
You've dovetailed beautifully into Carol because you'd worked with Rhea Seehorn for many years. And I know we definitely talked with you and with Rhea about the foundational nature of that costume, the wardrobe, everything that Kim wore in Better Call Saul. How did you approach this show differently? And did you work with Rhea and talk to her? Yeah, talk to us about that. Making her Carol. Yes. She's played by Rhea Seehorn, but she couldn't be less similar.
- [13:24]
B
It is different. Right, Right. Than Kim Wexler. So when we're on Better Call Song, we first started out, you know, we. Over the years, from developing Kim to going now into this completely miserable personality or the character and unhappy and drinker and she's so, so different. So. So we had to start fresh, but start with a shorthand language that I had developed with Ray over the years. So it didn't take long for us to go, okay, same actor, clean slate, completely different character. Kim was more flawless. And Carol is full of faults. Full of personality faults.
- [14:07]
A
Oh, yeah.
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B
And so we had to kind of.
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A
And contradictions, too.
- [14:12]
B
In contradictions. Exactly. So there was the facade of being this romance writer when we first see her. Just had her in this, like, beautiful. I love that suit. And I think she liked it. We kind of leaned into that idea that this is a facade of looking like, you know, the professional romance writer and very feminine. And just this fantasy, the pulpy books that she would write and present her clothes as somebody who's like, really into that. And I love that coming down the escalator, that drastic cut from all suited and booted to where she's got on leather jacket and she's got on jeans and she's a little bit, you Know, definitely taking that skin off and put this other skin on, you know, that costume. Her first look in a yellow leather jacket.
- [15:03]
C
And I just had this idea that it needed to be something that was feminine but had that little edge because we know that it was going to reveal her true life versus her Waikaro presenting forward life. So a little bit of a tough girl. I decided on this kind of golden mustard yellow and I.
- [15:25]
A
That's a great color.
- [15:26]
C
I could not find that leather anywhere in town. Eventually my leather maker, Jonathan Logan, who makes the best leather garments in Hollywood, found it in France and we got that. Leather, France, Yes, French leather. Only the French, you know, they're the fashion.
- [15:46]
A
The finest leather comes from French, the finest Scovian leather.
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B
And.
- [15:54]
C
Yeah. And so was a French leather. Very unique. We got just enough to make the jackets and you know, because we need.
- [16:03]
B
More than one for stuff.
- [16:04]
C
Hate to disappoint folks, but it's custom made. My design, you're not going to find it in the shops.
- [16:10]
A
You can't buy though. I'm sure that's disappointing. You can't buy it off the racks. It's really fantastic work that you've done and you and Ray together just. I feel like we have a sense of who Carol is just from moment one. And the evolution of her.
- [16:26]
B
Her clothing needed to show a breakdown in what was happening with her in her head.
- [16:33]
A
Sure.
- [16:34]
B
So I really didn't do a lot of tailored looks as we would do for her character, Kim. We kind of really moved away from that. It was a slouchy sweater and sweatpants that she looked like she slept in it. That kind of. And she did. And she did.
- [16:49]
A
Yeah. I wanted to ask about Zosia's. The first time we meet Zosia in Morocco.
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B
Oh, yes.
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A
That outfit that she's wearing, it's a Jalaba. Can you talk about that?
- [17:04]
B
Yes. So, you know, when I got to script as a sidebar, as a long standing crew member on Vince's projects, and I'm reading the first draft and it's like Morocco. And I went, morocco, no way. We'll never leave in Albuquerque. Vegas. No, that's not gonna happen. And boy, was I in for a surprise. The story rooted in Albuquerque, but definitely as we'll see and we know by now, by 106 how global it is and how I had to look at all of these different cultures. And I did a really, really deep dive into North African clothing. South America, Peru, Mongolia, India, you name it, we touched on it and I went into it with Authenticity of the culture, of all those cultures. Actually bearing in mind that a lot of the things that I just talked about, the signals of clothing had been stripped away. But we did want to show that the show moves throughout the world. So the jalaba is a very basic North African and Muslim garment. Just like in America we do T shirt and jeans. You could akin it to that. So it did a lot of research and designed and built that one. And again several. It goes through many journeys and a lot of aging and distressing. I had to start that in Albuquerque because we shot that part of Zoja's character in Albuquerque before we went to the Canary Islands. So that was also interesting. A lot of times in television we do not shoot in sequence of a story.
- [18:55]
A
Right.
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B
And we go backwards.
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A
And in Albuquerque, you also had to dress yourself because you appear on screen as the person who's standing right by the shower when Zosia comes and takes that shower. And also cameo from Sherry Montesanto and Trish. Yes.
- [19:15]
B
I think that Vince was very, very generous in selecting us and also very smart and very considerate because she gets off the plane, she's now going to meet up with Carol and she is muddy and dirty. And I just love the scene where she strips off the jalaba, tosses it in the trash and. And she does this back nude shot into the showers. And Vince wanted Carolina to be comfortable in that scene and who best to be comfortable with but the costume designer, hair and makeup. So the next thing I knew, I was cast as a pilot who does shower duty.
- [20:00]
A
Yep.
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B
And then Trish is doing her hair and Sherry's doing her makeup and we get her showered and cleaned up. And the next time you see her at Carol's backyard.
- [20:12]
A
That's right. And what I think of as an iconic sweater that Zoe's wearing.
- [20:17]
B
Yeah. Pristine white purists driven snow to go dig a grave and do some other stuff.
- [20:23]
A
That's right. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for taking the time and joining us on the podcast. This is really fun.
- [20:31]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [20:33]
A
All right, thanks to Jennifer Bryan for joining us on this bonus episode for 106. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed and watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeest and Nicholas Tsai executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.