S1E8Full:Charm Offensive

Summary

Pluribus: The Official Podcast

Episode: S1E8 – Charm Offensive
Host: Chris McCaleb (Editor & Host)
Guests: Skip McDonald (Editor), Diane Mercer (Executive Producer), Johnny Gomez (Writer), Melissa Bernstein (Director), Nicholas Tsai (Editor/Mixer)
Date: December 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

This roundtable episode dives deep into the making of “Charm Offensive” (Episode 8 of Apple TV’s Pluribus), bringing together key members of the creative team for a thoughtful, unscripted exploration of creative choices, production challenges, and the unique ethos of the show. The panel discusses script evolution, emotional performances, nuanced set pieces, and the complexities of world-building in a series shaped by Vince Gilligan and a core group of former “Better Call Saul” and “Breaking Bad” collaborators.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Writer’s Journey and Episode Tone

[02:10 – 03:28]

• Johnny Gomez joined midway through the season, filling Peter Gould’s seat, which felt like a “full circle moment” (as he began as a writer’s PA on Better Call Saul over a decade ago).
• The team highlights this episode as a pivotal turning point:
  • “It really sends the show in a completely new direction.” (Diane Mercer, 03:09)
• The script is praised for blending harrowing drama, humor, and emotional peaks, providing a “peek behind the curtain with these characters.”

2. Direction and Filming Challenges

[03:28 – 07:11]

• Melissa Bernstein relished the intimacy of working with a smaller principal cast but found new challenges with world-building—particularly in staging the “arena scene.”
• Organizing and choreographing over a thousand extras for the big communal scene required a movement choreographer (Nito) and a detail-focused approach to make the logistics seamless and authentic.
  • “That was my first time working with a movement choreographer, and Nito himself is just, like, full of energy and passion.” (Melissa Bernstein, 06:10)

3. Going Bigger: Set Design and Production Scale

[05:39 – 07:53]

• The arena scene was originally scripted as a smaller gymnasium but scaled up at the director’s suggestion, becoming a defining production set piece.
• The authenticity of a fully filled arena (rather than relying on visual effects) gave these sequences a unique realism.

4. Easter Eggs and Family Vibes

[09:44 – 10:12]

• Many crew members’ family joined as extras or specialists (e.g., massage therapist, sound bowls), reinforcing the show’s family atmosphere.
  • “It’s a family affair. There’re so many great moments in this episode and visual moments, too.” (Chris McCaleb, 10:00)

5. Observatory & Visual Experimentation

[10:12 – 13:22]

• The observatory scene was innovatively repurposed from an amphitheater next to the arena, providing a visually striking, romantic backdrop.
• Weather proved a recurring adversary (unexpected rain clouds, sandstorms), requiring creative, last-minute solutions from the seasoned crew.
  • “I think that the universe… doesn’t want us to make movies… nature goes to great lengths.” (Chris McCaleb, 13:36)

6. Editing and Story Perspective

[15:37 – 17:44]

• Skip McDonald reflects on editing complex, massive sequences (like the multi-hour lunch scene), with Vince Gilligan’s collaborative process in postproduction.
• The editing maintained clarity on character perspectives while managing continuity amid shifting sunlight and diverse camera angles.
  • “It probably took me three days to watch all of the footage… before you even cut a frame.” (Skip McDonald, 17:31)

7. Transforming Real Locations

[18:54 – 20:17]

• The diner set was transformed from a defunct barbecue joint; the production team adjusted every detail to evoke a sense of familiar, comforting Americana—mirroring themes of constructed reality for the protagonist, Carol.

8. Metatheatrics & The Others' Performances

[20:17 – 21:38]

• The “others” have been “rehearsing” to play normalcy, coached by Diabate—a running gag and theme within the show and among the creative team.

9. Staging and Visual Contrasts

[21:59 – 24:23]

• The croquet scene: Melissa brought personal experience, while the props team taught the actors to play (with some VFX assists for tricky shots).
• Locations like a high school stadium emphasized character solitude vs. community, and contrasted with crowded scenes for thematic effect.

10. Collaborative Crew & Problem-Solving Culture

[25:40 – 29:24]

• The crew’s “no-ego” philosophy is underscored as vital to navigating logistical, script, or VFX challenges—everyone pitches in regardless of job titles.
  • “There’s no ego anywhere. Everyone is constantly helping everyone else.” (Diane Mercer, 26:36)
• Even details like choosing turf fields (since the community in the show can’t mow real grass) are debated for world-building accuracy.

11. Strong Leadership and Creative Process

[29:24 – 30:38]

• The show’s meticulous prep and luxury of time (thanks to Vince Gilligan’s process) sets it apart, allowing for bold storytelling decisions and thorough postproduction focus.

12. Carol & Zosia: Consent, Chemistry, and Complexity

[30:39 – 36:21]

• The much-anticipated kiss: Writers and directors worked closely to ensure the moment was consensual, organic, and sensitive to Carol’s agency.
  • “It was a process that we sort of allowed that to play out a little bit and definitely worked hand in hand with Rhea and Carolina to find what felt authentic.” (Melissa Bernstein, 31:48)
• Playing “the other” is noted as an “absurdly challenging role” due to the need to convey multifaceted intention and emotion beyond normal human experience.

13. Music and Source Cues

[36:40 – 38:00]

• Sheryl Crow’s diner scene song sets a nostalgic tone, and the end credits feature “You’ve Got To Be Sure” by Traffic Sound, a 1970s South American band.
• Composer Dave Porter’s score remains a touchstone for the series, while music supervisor Thomas Golubic voices the radio DJ as a cameo.

14. Digital and Practical Effects

[38:00 – 39:27]

• The train scene: A digital train was composited into a location found by location manager Christian Diaz de Bedoya—showcasing the mix of real and virtual magic.

15. Theme of Human Knowability

[39:39 – 40:21]

• A standout moment is Carol sharing something the others don’t know, thematically underlining the limits of self-knowledge and human connection.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On World-Building through Details:
  “There’s just so many things to think about.” (Melissa Bernstein, 29:12)

• On the Arena Scene’s Scale:
  “It started to click, like, how this would work for this group… that was really fun.” (Melissa Bernstein, 06:10)

• On Crew Solidarity:
  “Everyone at every level is paying attention to the words on the page.” (Melissa Bernstein, 27:49)

• On Character Development:
  “Carol is essentially falling in love with the world, which is crazy.” (Diane Mercer, 34:44)

• On the Kiss and Emotional Complexity:
  “You never want it to… look too aggressive… It was an ongoing conversation—even as we were filming it.” (Johnny Gomez, 31:00)

• On the Series’ Ethos:
  “The advantage that we have… is that we have time… and it makes everything better.” (Chris McCaleb, 29:24)

• On Emotional Vulnerability:
  “There’s like the vulnerability of telling somebody something you realize you’ve never actually even articulated before.” (Diane Mercer, 39:59)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Segment | |--------------|----------------------------------------------------| | 02:10–03:28 | Writer's background and episode’s new direction | | 05:39–07:53 | Arena scene logistics and emotional impact | | 10:12–13:22 | Observatory location, weather issues, crew effort | | 15:37–17:44 | Editing marathon: masterclass in big scenes | | 18:54–20:17 | Transforming the abandoned diner | | 21:59–24:23 | The croquet scene: teaching, playing, aesthetics | | 26:36–29:24 | Collaborative crew and problem-solving anecdotes | | 30:39–36:21 | The Carol & Zosia kiss; acting challenges | | 36:40–38:00 | Music supervisor cameo and soundtrack choices | | 38:00–39:27 | Creating the train sequence | | 39:39–40:21 | Carol’s authentic moment, theme of “unknowable” |

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Takeaways

• “Charm Offensive” marks a narrative and tonal milestone in Pluribus, opening up character depths and world-building in unexpected ways.
• The team’s hands-on, collective artistry—across writing, directing, editing, set design, and music—creates a deeply immersive, living world.
• Even within high-stress, weather-plagued, resource-challenged shoots, a spirit of camaraderie and detail-obsession shines through, enhancing authenticity.
• Intimacy and vulnerability—on both sides of the camera—drive the episode’s signature moments, making it resonate with both cast and creators.
• In Pluribus, the magic isn’t just onscreen; it’s a palpable part of the process, shaped by every individual who brings the world to life.

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For more Easter eggs, production lore, and philosophical musing, listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts.

Transcript

[Melissa Bernstein]

Foreign.

[Diane Mercer]

Hello, carol.

[Chris McCaleb]

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb. I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and the host of this podcast. And my voice is a little scratchy today. Sorry about that. This isn't a recap show. It's more of a wide ranging roundtable discussion about the making of each episode. So I strongly recommend you watch the episode before you listen because we'll be talking about everything in depth, full spoilers, etc. This podcast is about episode 108, entitled Charm Offensive, written by Johnny Gomez and directed by Melissa Bernstein. In this episode, Menuzos continues his journey north from Panama in an ambulance, while Carol learns more about Zozia. A lot more. And there's a lot to talk about. So without further ado, please welcome our guests, editor, Skip McDonald.

[Skip McDonald]

Hi there, Skip. Here.

[Chris McCaleb]

Executive producer Diane Mercer.

[Diane Mercer]

Hello.

[Chris McCaleb]

The writer of this episode, Johnny Gomez.

[Johnny Gomez]

Hello.

[Chris McCaleb]

And the director of this episode, Melissa Bernstein.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Hello.

[Chris McCaleb]

Hello. And also with us, of course, Nicholas Tsai on the ones and twos, the threes and fours, the ones and zeros, the wheels of steel.

[Skip McDonald]

Hi there.

[Chris McCaleb]

We'll figure it out eventually.

[Skip McDonald]

Yeah.

[Johnny Gomez]

That is his official title.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah.

[Skip McDonald]

It's not the 6 7.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah.

[Johnny Gomez]

Oh.

[Chris McCaleb]

Oh, very. That's good. Very topical.

[Diane Mercer]

Oh, no, you're dating us.

[Chris McCaleb]

Very topical.

[Skip McDonald]

I just learned that the other day.

[Chris McCaleb]

Of Peek behind the Curtain. The show just premiered a couple of days ago. Yesterday, technically. So, yeah. So we're all feeling great. We're excited that this thing is finally out there so you all can see it. And today we're talking about episode eight, Charm Offensive.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

So, Johnny, you wrote this script. Talk about your journey here. You came into the writers room partway through the season, right?

[Johnny Gomez]

I did. I came into the writers room after Peter Gould, who was. Heard of him, heard of him, and I replaced him in the seat. But that's about it as far as I was concerned, because Peter Gould is just incredible. And it's actually weirdly like a full circle moment for me too, because I was in this room being interviewed by Peter Gould and Diane over here when I was hired as the writer's PA like 11 years ago for Better Call Saul. And so now we're here doing a podcast, which is crazy. And Melissa and I also had that moment on set, like our first day of prep, just looking at each other like, holy moly.

[Melissa Bernstein]

This is what a journey.

[Johnny Gomez]

Crazy.

[Melissa Bernstein]

And the script was excellent. Johnny like, what a gift it was to read that script. It's harrowing and it's funny and it's so emotional. And such a great peek behind the curtain with these characters.

[Diane Mercer]

It really sends the show in a completely new direction. I mean, we've gone a certain path up until episode seven, and then episode eight. All of a sudden you start to learn who these people are and you start to question their motives a little bit and you start to fear for Carol a little bit more. And it's a really, really extraordinary script.

[Johnny Gomez]

Well, thank you so much. And I mean, for you, Melissa, having to navigate that on set with, you know, the script and the actors and this is like, you know, Diane is saying it is a departure from kind of where we've gone. What was that like for you? Kind of navigating the emotional journey and the emotional kind of maze that Carol was going on.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Honestly, I just felt so lucky because this story felt so intimate and so it felt like, you know, I had such few actors, you know, in our episode, I mean, we had our big crowd scene, which that's a lot of very talented background artists and people participating. But like, in terms of our cast, it was a much smaller cast. So it just felt like such a special opportunity to really dig into the nuances of these relationships. And what I found challenging is the way the show is set up. There are these new world orders that like, you know, and figuring that out, one in Spanish when I am not a Spanish speaking person, that was, that's challenging. And then, you know, just the way that the humans behave in this show is like, that's something to catch up to. And for Karolina, and that character too is changing very much or adjusting in that episode. And that felt like a really complex and like fun challenge.

[Johnny Gomez]

I have to say, you did such an incredible job. I mean, there were so many moments where it was just. It was really intimate. It's you and one actor, you and two actors kind of navigating all of this. What was harder for you? The scenes with just one or two people or the scene with 5,000 extras?

[Melissa Bernstein]

I'm definitely more concerned with all the background artists. For me, I felt, you know, I've known Rhae so long, I told her too. It was just like I felt like I had a front row seat at watching her play all of these emotions and this story. Like she's just doing something I've never seen any other actor do. It's just spectacular, the range that she gets to play in the show. So, like that part of it was not stressful, but, you know, having a arena full of human beings and with lots of help, thank goodness. But that's just a lot of pressure because you don't want to waste people's time.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

Who writes an arena full of people in there?

[Johnny Gomez]

Not me.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah. Talk about that. How did that happen in the script? It was something a little smaller scale. Yeah.

[Johnny Gomez]

Yeah. And when we talked about it in the room, and I think in the writer's draft, it was still a high school gymnasium. We had kind of thought it was. This is a first time for me where I think a director in production was like, let's go bigger. I feel like usually we're trying to pare it down, but for this, I mean, we went from that to a interior sports arena, sports complex, which was so cool.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. I mean, it started to click. Like, how this would work for this group in terms of how they're sharing their resources and just thinking through that aspect of it. That was really fun. And I felt like the location really suited that big shout out to Nito, who did an incredible job helping us figure out how to manage all those human beings and, like, how they might move and how the rhythm of that might play out. Like, it was my first time working with a movement choreographer. And Nito himself is just, like, full of energy and passion and, like, really instigates ideas. And nothing is good enough for him either. So that's great. It's really fun.

[Diane Mercer]

He definitely fits in with the perfectionist crowd that works on this show. And the other really important thing to note, too, is that, you know, that's typically a place where you would use visual effects and you would tile people and replicate people. Cause you couldn't have the whole space be full. But in this case, it made so much more sense to just really fill it. And you can tell. I mean, like, when you watch the scene, it plays completely differently because all those people are really there and they're really going about their nighttime routine, which. This is the first time we learn that this is. I mean, I love that moment in the show when she. I never asked you where you live. You know, like, it's like, of course, you know, like, how many people have been wondering that question all along? And, you know, we finally get to answer it. And, I mean, I'm sure at this point somebody has gotten ahead of it, but, like, it was so surprising to me when I read it. I mean, it's just such a delightful moment. And we learn when we get there, you know, they're funny. Like, they have a sense of humor.

[Johnny Gomez]

Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

You know, I mean, Zosia is joking with her, and she's so charming. And I mean, I think we've talked many times during prep and from start to finish, like, this is a seduction episode. I mean, that's what this is. You know, they still have their biological imperative. And this is the episode where you kind of go back and forth about what is compelling, about what they are selling and can you trust them and what is really their motive and are they who they really say they are?

[Johnny Gomez]

I think we're right there with Carol, the entire episode just kind of going back and forth.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. And I think just globally, the way that Vince tends to approach story and, of course, the writers in conjunction with him, but about, like, unpacking the sort of minutiae and, like, day to day, you know, what an individual human, the questions they would be asking, like, you know, you never are zooming past something being like, oh, just accept this. It's like you get to hear in Carol's mouth the questions that you are wondering and get to see for yourself what's going on and make those judgments. I think that's so specific to the show and so specific to Vince. And one other shout out to give is Rich Sickler, who, like, I wouldn't have even thought of taking on a location like that or that a number of actors or background artists like that without him, because he's just like such. I mean, he's an incredible assistant director, but, like, the way he works with the big crowd and rallies them and gets them excited about what they're doing and makes sure they feel respected. We shot it over two days, and like, a lot of times people are like, oh, I had my experience, and they don't show up the second day. We had, like, an insane number of people show back up because Rich made it fun for them and made them feel a part of it, which they very much were.

[Chris McCaleb]

Rich also kept it a family affair. His wife was one of the massage therapists and choreographed the massage therapy.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Annie.

[Chris McCaleb]

Also, I'm reading the Key grip. Jake's wife was doing the sound bowls.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yes. Yeah, the sound act.

[Johnny Gomez]

Oh, that's great.

[Chris McCaleb]

Family affair. It's a family affair. There's so many great moments in this episode and visual moments, too. So I, like, talk about the observatory area, which I know was not an observatory in real life.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. It's actually right next to the arena for the scene we were just talking about. I mean, it's just such an interesting, beautiful structure. And honestly, I Wasn't sure if Vince would go for it, because definitely in my history with Vincent, Peter, there's always a lot of pushback about, well, does it make sense? And you never want to just shoehorn something in because it's cool. But it was so cool that I think I went straight to Diane and I was like, all right, so what if it looked like this and it was on a cliff and then there was an overlook? And I started with Diane, and she was like, I can see it. I think it's worth a shot. So then we showed pictures to Vince and Marshall Adams, who shot the show and did such a beautiful job with it. We worked on what a lighting concept would be for that because it's super cool. But if it's at night, how are we showing it? And how does that make sense within the paradigm of the show and the way they utilize resources? So we. We really had to kind of think it through with the, like, logic of this particular world. Yeah, I just. I love the way it looks. It's so neat. Me, too.

[Johnny Gomez]

It's so striking. I mean, it's a gigantic piece of art in the middle of the scene as everything is happening. And that was, by the way, another thing that was scripted is, like, empty desert in the middle of the night. I think we had a joke in there at one point that was like, marshall, please don't kill us. We don't know how we're going to light this. Please don't kill us. And we ended up with something so much better.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah, Lilacasia, too, is like. I mean, how many years did we shoot in Albuquerque and we've never seen it? I mean, it's just incredible to find something that special. And it is like, it's such a romantic little scene. And it really gives it so much more visual interest than it would have had if it was out in the desert. And, I mean, and Marshall, oh, my God, he did such an amazing job shooting it. And a few days before we did it, he said to me, he's like, this terrifies me. I have never been so scared of shooting something. Cause it's a gigantic reflective surface.

[Johnny Gomez]

That was our first day of 108.

[Diane Mercer]

It was.

[Melissa Bernstein]

And in real life, it's an amphitheater, which is really beautiful. So if you're in Albuquerque, you should go see it and enjoy it. It's gorgeous. And remember that night it rained? It was like a night shoot. And then right before the sun went up, we had a few more shots to get. I think we hadn't gotten our Drone piece yet, maybe.

[Johnny Gomez]

I think we had temped the drone piece. They tested it, but I don't know if they were filming yet.

[Melissa Bernstein]

I think that's right. And the rain came and I was like, oh my God, we're dead. We're not gonna get the rest of our shots. And I was just so panicked about it. And then the crew, this amazing crew, which is again, why this show is gorgeous as it is and why everybody's in Albuquerque, but. But like, they're just like out there at 4:30 in the morning with brooms, getting rid of the water that had accumulated during this rain. That was like just one cloud above this structure. Like that's all it was. There were no clouds anywhere else except for directly above us, which seemed insane. But like the crew just like, they made. And like blow dryers, they just like made the rain go away. And again, they easily could have been like, we're done now because it's 4:30 in the morning.

[Johnny Gomez]

Do you remember we had an astronomer, like an astronomy tech there on the day? And he looked up at that one cloud at one point and goes, I've never seen that before. He was below just one single rain cloud. And it just torrential.

[Chris McCaleb]

I always say, I think that the universe or whatever you believe in, if there's any kind of divine force that's out there, they don't want us to make movies. They really don't want us to. To take, you know, to create this kind of artificial version of life. And it's like nature goes to great lengths, including a single solitary, like Charlie Brown style rain cloud.

[Diane Mercer]

I think Vince would agree with you on that one.

[Chris McCaleb]

Well, I heard. I also, I saw that when Vince arrived at the massage set, which is at Los Poblanos in Albuquerque, and more rain. A bee stung him on top of.

[Johnny Gomez]

His head the moment he walked on set. Like literally he walked on set and that bee found him.

[Chris McCaleb]

That's what I'm talking about. They don't. Nature is lining up their forces against us.

[Melissa Bernstein]

And there was rain. We were. Remember, we were stuck inside there too.

[Johnny Gomez]

Which really messed us up. Cause the pool was like right there next to it. It was really. You can't. It was. Oh my goodness.

[Diane Mercer]

You can't tell. I mean, you really can't tell in either of those scenes. It's incredible actually.

[Melissa Bernstein]

You can tell that one. We were. I felt like we were gonna get through it. But like the amphitheater situation.

[Johnny Gomez]

And by the way, that's not even the worst weather from that shoot. There was worse.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Wait when was the worst one?

[Johnny Gomez]

The haboob. The sandstorm that. When we were trying to film Minusos at the underpass.

[Melissa Bernstein]

That was crazy.

[Skip McDonald]

That's right.

[Johnny Gomez]

There was like. We had to. And then we had to reshoot the part of him getting, you know, his shirt back on. Back of the ambulance. I think on set, we like, just.

[Diane Mercer]

Yes.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

You guys had you definitely just for.

[Johnny Gomez]

Pieces to add some. Yeah.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yep. That's absolutely right. I totally blocked that out. I was, like, taking pictures of it because it was so crazy.

[Johnny Gomez]

It was wild.

[Diane Mercer]

And that location we have seen before, right? In Sol at some point. That's, like, definitely an overpass that we have used before.

[Melissa Bernstein]

That's right. I mean, between Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, we've hit up a lot of over underpasses. Yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

Skip, I have to go back to episode two because there are two things. One, my favorite cut, I think, in the whole first season is in episode two, when Carol learns that her outburst killed a bunch of people. And she leans down to vomit again. And then hard cut to pickaxe, like, into the ground. That's Chef's kiss.

[Skip McDonald]

Thank you.

[Chris McCaleb]

I absolutely love not a chef that has the virus and kisses you and turns you into one of them. I love that. Did you find that? Or how constructed was that? Or, like, as far as Vince's homework.

[Skip McDonald]

It took us a little while. No, that wasn't in Vince's homework. That was something. We were just trying to trim things down.

[Johnny Gomez]

Whoa.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Not in Vince somewhere.

[Chris McCaleb]

Oh, my God.

[Skip McDonald]

Well, not the tie into those two pieces. And then we were just working at it, and it was like, okay. I think I just got lucky with making that cut. But it really works well.

[Chris McCaleb]

I love it. And the other one, also in that episode, and we talked about it on the podcast, is the lunch scene where, you know, all of the assembled English speakers and their families. Do you remember how many hours of dailies there were?

[Skip McDonald]

Oh, God. I think there was, like, 18 or 20 hours worth of dailies.

[Chris McCaleb]

I think it was more than 20.

[Skip McDonald]

There might have been. I don't remember.

[Chris McCaleb]

Well, it's a very long scene. This isn't even a question other than how hard is it to do that. And also with Vince's effort to not reuse shots, there's so many people. You have to be tracking everybody. And the sun is changing, which is, I mean, unbelievable that that was able to maintain continuity. What I said is that you could teach, like, a masterclass in editing of that sequence just because it never feels labored. I know exactly where everybody Is. And I'm following everybody's perspective, but ultimately the sort of super perspective being Carol.

[Skip McDonald]

Yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

How do you approach something that massive?

[Skip McDonald]

It's very time consuming. It probably took me three days to watch all of the footage just. And to remember what it was and what pieces we could use. And then just to watch it.

[Chris McCaleb]

Just to watch it.

[Skip McDonald]

That's before you even cut a frame. It's just watching it, understanding it, and then you slowly start to piece it together and you try something, and you try something again, undo things. It was a big scene and it took days to get through that. You know, then we get Vince in there and he does his magic to it, too. But, you know, I think the getting the foundation first was the toughest part. And then once we got that, then it was a little easier to wind the moments that we wanted to make them work and remember where everybody was. And then we'd get the little pieces, like, you know, when Carol says, you know, here's to you. And then, ah, ton Bayar. He toasted with her where everybody else thinks she's crazy. And it was just kind of a fun moment.

[Chris McCaleb]

I love that moment. I also love his coming down the stairs of Air Force One, saying, this plane has an upstairs.

[Skip McDonald]

There's an upstairs.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah, I love that. But, yeah, I just. Since you're here on the podcast, I just had to mention that that sequence is insane. Some other huge, like, productions in very memorable locations. And I think one of my favorite scenes in this episode, the scene at the diner, talk about finding that. And it had to be pretty much remodeled.

[Johnny Gomez]

Right?

[Chris McCaleb]

I mean, it was like defunct business.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah, it used to be a barbecue place that was actually very good. I was sad it was gone. Denise Pizzini, in her brilliance, just. We looked at it and it was going to take so much. And she was like, I'm in. I'll do it. I'll figure it out. And she made it, like, different booths around the counter. The seats were different. Like, the ceiling was different. Like, she did so much to it. And that team did it. And Steve, everybody, they just. They made it happen. And they did it so fast. It was insane. It was challenging. We had a. Like a yoga class going across the way. It was like, you know, and intermittent traffic control on that Central Ave. It's one of the busiest streets in Albuquerque. Like, it required so much coordination and commitment and everybody, like, made that happen. And I just loved it. I mean, it's definitely like the kind of conventional diner and that's what I loved about it. Like, it felt so normal.

[Johnny Gomez]

Didn't it feel familiar like you walked in? Like, I feel like I've been here. I know they built this over the last two days, but I feel like I've been here before.

[Chris McCaleb]

Which kind of mirrors what's happening in the scene in the episode where she's like, this is so comforting. And wait a second. And it's all for her. It's all been constructed for her, as it's all been constructed for you and, you know, for the production.

[Melissa Bernstein]

And there's so many great details. There's, like, a newspaper stand out there and people walking on the streets. And, like, what the others did for Carol in that scene is really amazing. Like, just the chatter and the money. They're using money, you know, to pay their checks. Like, I mean, they're just. They really committed to this gift for her, and it's actually quite moving. But then, you know, with Carol having that revelation in the middle of it, I mean, just the way that Rhae brought that to life was, I think, incredible, because it's like her, like, enjoying it and then realizing what that means, and then how does it feel to be the outsider in that scenario? And is this a manipulation and the kind of manipulation that as a writer, she's grown so opposed to? I loved seeing those wheels turning in her. And, yeah, it felt like the right setting for that.

[Johnny Gomez]

We talked about it in the room, and I remember we were exactly asking that, like, is this, you know, too much of a production, too much of a whatever. And what we came to was diabate has been having them do this for months. Like, having them play act. Having them play characters with chips with everything else and doing all this. So, like, weirdly, they've had months of practice putting on a little piece of reality, a little piece of the old world. And so for. This was like, almost nothing for them.

[Chris McCaleb]

I like to imagine that diabate every day, it's some other movie, a different movie playing some. Another One of his favorite films. And he's the main character in all of them.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Definitely. I think that is a good chance that's happening. Yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

Fun movie.

[Diane Mercer]

I want to see Diabatte in Ocean's Eleven.

[Chris McCaleb]

Oh, yes.

[Johnny Gomez]

He does that on Wednesdays.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah.

[Skip McDonald]

Okay. All right.

[Chris McCaleb]

Talk a little bit also about the croquet scene.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah, I mean, that was really fun. That was.

[Chris McCaleb]

I heard you knew the most about croquet of anybody, Melissa. Yeah, that's what I hear.

[Melissa Bernstein]

I grew up.

[Chris McCaleb]

That's. Katrina said.

[Melissa Bernstein]

I don't know if that's true, but I grew up playing. Like, my family's from sort of a rural area in Virginia, but, like, something we would always do on holidays is play croquet at my grandmother's house. So I did have a sense of the game. But I will say Matty in props, he had to go learn it exactly how the rules are and then teach both Rhae and Carolina how to do it.

[Chris McCaleb]

Because they didn't know. Right. And people were watching videos.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah, they were videos. There was practice. And then we also knew that we weren't going to be able to capture Carolina's nailing it in one. So we also had to figure out some workaround visual effect magic, set ourselves up to succeed, to be able to tell that story, too.

[Johnny Gomez]

She did get really good at it, though. She got really good at it.

[Chris McCaleb]

She's taxiing airplanes. She's playing croquet.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Her in the airplane. Amazing.

[Diane Mercer]

But what is that? It's like two. Two shots comped together or three shots.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Right.

[Skip McDonald]

Because she did a nice job of hitting the ball across. We had to put the little. What is it? Just put the wicket over the ball and do that. But she was pretty good with it.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. And we were at. It was a high school that looked like a college.

[Chris McCaleb]

It was a really high.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah, it was really nice because it's.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Like a football stadium. It's kind of amazing with, like, a press area.

[Johnny Gomez]

Yeah, yeah. And like an astroturf field. Like, it was an incredible.

[Skip McDonald]

Yeah, but it was great when you got those big wide shots with just the two of them out in the middle of the field. They're so tiny on this big field. It really showed the scope of where they were.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. It felt like we had so many shots that were cool, that it was like you got to kind of pick your poison. And, you know, again, it's such a photogenic stadium, too.

[Diane Mercer]

Like, it's got that really southwestern design and the way the stairs are designed and everything. Like, every angle is, like, graphically beautiful.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. That's a playground for Marshall and the operators, for sure.

[Skip McDonald]

And it was a great contrast to the arena with all of those people. And then you just see this with two of them out there in those big spaces.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. Yeah. It was great.

[Diane Mercer]

Weirdly, all the people that were in the stadium with them sleeping are there, too. Like, that's what's so crazy. Right? You're like, they're all there. They're all enjoying this game of croquet with Carol at the same time.

[Chris McCaleb]

It's crazy to think that every time they're like, we're everybody.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

Which can be played in a haunting way. It can be very funny when Carol's grilling Ravi about a female pelvic exam.

[Diane Mercer]

Oh, my God.

[Chris McCaleb]

Which is. That's so good. But, Melissa, how has it. Because I edited your directorial debut on Better Call Saul. Thank you very much.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Amazing for you.

[Chris McCaleb]

How has the experience changed as a director the more you've done it? Is this your third?

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah, my third. And instill so much in the family. I mean, both Rich and Marshall, that's who I worked with on my first two episodes. And to have Trina on set with me every day and to have Johnny there and to have Diane and Jen, like, available to problem solve and all the amazing department heads, Jenn, Bryan, like, it just. It felt like old home week for me for maybe three. Three old home weeks. I don't know however many of us, but, like, you know, so I still felt very. Just like I'm this sort of team leader for an amazing group that I know very well, that I felt so lucky to be collaborating with. It felt like a group project, and I loved every minute of it. I felt more comfortable than I had before because it does. It's, you know, it's scary.

[Skip McDonald]

Well, you.

[Diane Mercer]

The last two times you did this, you were also executive producing this show.

[Melissa Bernstein]

That's true. That was easier. Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

So you didn't have to. You could just look at Jen or Trina or me and be like, solve this problem for me. Okay, I'm working on this now. You solve that. And I mean, I'm sure that helps a little bit.

[Melissa Bernstein]

It does. And not to go home after the day and catch up on your emails for the next episode, that is. That was. That was nicer. That's true. And to have you guys, I mean, quite honestly, Chris and Skip, like, to come back here and, like, have to face the music, like, for that to be in such a constructive, creative, calming place of, like, we'll figure it out. Skip and I definitely did that when we're like, okay, like, let's see what our challenges are and, like, let's try something different. And, like, it always felt like we were on the same page and we were finding it together. So I'm not sure I know how to do it outside of this family, but it's been a nice.

[Diane Mercer]

Melissa is magical. But I. I will just to kind of give a general shout out to the entire crew. Like, me being a little more involved in the production side on this show than I was on the other two shows. Like, the thing that has stayed with me, you know, now, a year out from when we wrapped production is just my favorite memories from the entire time that we were shooting were the problem solving, like, taking a script problem or taking a location problem or a visual effects problem or anything. There's, like, no ego anywhere. Like, everybody is constantly helping everyone else. Like, nobody on this crew is like, well, that's a prop thing. Like, I don't do that, or that's a wardrobe thing. I mean, that's their problem. Like, I've never seen anyone on this crew ever, ever take that attitude. It really is just so beautiful the way people work together and help people solve these really challenging issues. And then we really do kind of work it all out in prep so that when you get there on the day, I mean, it's never 100%. You know, you're always, like, a little bit, like, panicking that you're looking over the edge and about to take a big jump. But it's a trust fall. But, like, you know, you're gonna be caught. Worry that you're not gonna be caught.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah, yeah. And just, like, side note, I just wanted to mention David Terrazas, who was one of the office PAs, who was with us when we were in the hospital, and he was helping with the Spanish translation, and not just telling me the words, but also, like, giving me a point of view and, like. Cause he was so invested in. In the scene and in the material, and everyone at every level is paying attention to the words on the page.

[Diane Mercer]

And there's so much with the way the show is structured and the rules of the world that you have to be watching at all times, and none of us ever get it right all the time. It literally takes everybody looking at it to make sure that we're asking the right questions. And the fact that we had to shoot in a stadium with turf, not with real grass, because these people can't cut the grass.

[Johnny Gomez]

I remember that conversation.

[Diane Mercer]

You're like, oh, my God. Yes, we can't. They can't cut the grass.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Like, oh, my God.

[Diane Mercer]

I mean, just. But everything like that is just. Just, like, constantly. Constantly watching. And so having everybody so invested, including the Office pas, and, like, this really just brings everybody along, and no one is afraid to speak up because they could be the person to, like, save us from making a really stupid mistake.

[Melissa Bernstein]

That's so right. We went and looked at the Isotope Stadium, and, like, which was unbelievable.

[Diane Mercer]

It's so beautiful and photogenic and, like.

[Melissa Bernstein]

And they were going to figure it out, like, for it, but it was, like, the amount of growth we would need between the games that were actually needed to be played, like. Yeah. I mean, yeah. There's just so many things to think about. Yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

And it's crazy how many people have their eye on the details, details, details, prep. Because it pays off. And I think also, Diane, to something you were saying earlier about the luxury or the. The advantage I think that we have on these shows is in part that we have time and Vince being able to focus on production and then focus on post production. You know, that was on Breaking Bad and we had it on Better Call Saul with Peter and Vince. And it makes everything better. When you can spend that kind of concentrated amount of time and you as a showrunner, your focus is already diverted in a million different directions. But to be able to concentrate and just sit down and focus on the editing, it's a real gift.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah, it is. And it's what allows Vince to take those kind of bold swings, big swings. And Vince has to go at least a little ways down every single road before he's certain that the road that we ultimately choose is the right road. And that does not happen quickly. And I think all of us very much know how lucky we are to have that luxury of time because that is what makes Vince's particular magic.

[Johnny Gomez]

Agreed.

[Chris McCaleb]

I completely agreed. Speaking of magic, I know one moment I'm sure people are talking about after watching this episode is the moment when Carol and Zosia kiss, talk about the sort of the tricky balance of who kisses who. I know that that was an important thing, story wise, talk about that moment.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Do you want to talk about that moment?

[Johnny Gomez]

Yeah. I mean, for the start of it, even as early in the writers room, I think we were very, very certain that we needed to make sure that Carol also, if not the one initiating, definitely the one who goes 90% of the way, kind of goes into it, because you never want it. It's such a tricky combination when we're talking about consent and what they're doing. And in episode two, they have the entire conversation with the abate about how much they enjoy pleasure. And all of these things are part of the others and part of the world. And so you didn't want the others to look too aggressive, you didn't want the others to look too manipulative. So it was kind of like. I think it was an ongoing conversation. Even as far as, like, on set, as we were filming it, I think we had multiple versions. And I think you can probably talk about this a lot better, Melissa. That was an entire kind of Process to navigate, to make sure it felt real.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. And to make sure it made sense to Rhea and Carolina, too. And I think it was a process that we sort of allowed that to play out a little bit and definitely worked hand in hand with Rhea and Carolina to find what felt authentic and, like, a real organic moment of connection for them. It definitely isn't what either of them, I think, would have expected that evening to end with. You know, by the time Carolina shows up at Carol's house, it does not seem like it's going to go well. There's so much energy and pain and need and loneliness at the surface for Carol, and you can see all of that on Rhae's face. Like, that's what's so incredible. And then Carolina has this challenge of, like, being an other and all that that entails. What can she put out there? Like, what feels right and what feels like it has continuity with the story that she's been telling with this character. So as an actor, I mean, Carolina's, I think challenges are, like, I've never heard one like it. And, like, you know, it's a crazy role.

[Johnny Gomez]

It's a crazy, crazy character to have to.

[Chris McCaleb]

She did talk a little bit about that challenge on either the episode two or episode three podcast. It's incredibly challenging and, like, deceptively challenging. As an actor, your instinct is to play the emotion or play the reality of a particular scene, but the reality of Zosya and the others is so radically outside of our experience. And then to be able to be doing all of that and to have to also be sort of creating this temptation for Carol and she, you know, serves as like, the physical embodiment of temptation by design. From that moment when Carol realizes. Now I know why I know your face.

[Johnny Gomez]

You know, you look like Rabban is the pirate lady.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah, I think she's the pirate lady.

[Johnny Gomez]

And we talked about that in the room a lot, too, where it's like this bizarre tightrope of the fact that, like, all of Helen's memories are in there. Helen's not steering the ship, but the memories are there. And so all those little moments, and they're using them.

[Chris McCaleb]

They are using them.

[Diane Mercer]

They're actively using.

[Johnny Gomez]

And you can see when. Just the way that she's. She's heckling Carol. I mean, she's. She's teasing her, and that's really her love language.

[Diane Mercer]

That's Helen. Yeah, yeah.

[Melissa Bernstein]

She's using them, but she's also telling Carol she's using them.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah, yeah. It's all out There, like Vince always likes to say, they're very lawyerly. Like, they definitely withhold information, but they are pretty open about what they're doing most of the time. Carolina, truly, she's so charming in this episode.

[Chris McCaleb]

And you might call it a charm offensive.

[Diane Mercer]

Might call it a charm offensive. Yeah. I mean, by design, right? So it's pretty gratifying after because we see so much of them in episode two and three. And then the conflict kind of gets a little intense in four, and then she's gone.

[Chris McCaleb]

Right.

[Diane Mercer]

And so then when she comes back now, and you guys talked about it many, many, many times, but Carol is essentially falling in love with the world, which is crazy. Like, I can't even, like, process that. And so for Carolina to play that so intimately and delicately, like, throughout. And you understand Carol forgetting that she's not just one person because she's doing such a good job of playing that part of being one person, even though she still uses we. And Carol doesn't want her to do that because Carol desperately wants to believe that this is an individual person. I mean, it's just like my head is exploding with thinking about all this stuff.

[Johnny Gomez]

Melissa, you found this great moment, too, when Carol comes back in the house after getting the dry erase markers, you know? Cause you guys are like, she is. She's falling in love with the world, but she's still on the case. But she's trying to get closer. But she is getting closer. And it's all. Her head's in such, like, a tailspin over this. And as she's moving the Wykara board away to get back to her being on the case, and it's that hesitation where she's kind of looking at Waikaro, knows she has work to do, and it just. It lingers for just the right amount of time where you're just, like, kind of on that precipice with her. It was really well done.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Well, just that Zosia lit the fire, like, and the others, they lit the fire about, like, oh, what that feels like, what that sunshine on your face feels like when someone else is excited as you are about this world you've created. And, like, there's ego in that, but there's also actually her lifting herself out of this dark place.

[Johnny Gomez]

Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

I mean, she was just alone for 40 days. She was alone for 40 days and, like, something broke in her, you know? But to have somebody come back and say, oh, we're just so excited to have something new to read. I mean, there's no new books unless Carol Writes a book.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah, yeah. What a dream for an author. No pressure.

[Melissa Bernstein]

I love that last song. I don't know if you guys speak to that, but that's a Thomas.

[Diane Mercer]

Oh, yes, that's a Thomas. That's a Thomas hit. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

The one over the.

[Johnny Gomez]

Over the crowd. Yeah. It's so good.

[Melissa Bernstein]

I mean, Dave's work is always gorgeous. Oh, yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

Dave Porter just obviously did an incredible job with all of the score in this. I mean, throughout this entire season. I mean, I personally love the Sheryl Crow song in the diner. Like, just brings you right back to that time when it's supposed to be like. And that's what great source music does, right? It's table setting. And it's also playing a trick on her.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Right.

[Diane Mercer]

Like, she's right back where she was. And, yeah, the end credits, when Minusos is on the Way is this incredible song that Thomas found. And the band is called Traffic Sound. And the song is called you've Got To Be Sure. I think it's old. I think it's from the 70s.

[Chris McCaleb]

You can never know, though.

[Melissa Bernstein]

It feels like it is.

[Diane Mercer]

Some of them sound old and are not. But this one, I believe, actually is. It's a band from South America.

[Chris McCaleb]

We'll have to ask Thomas. Thomas, by the way, makes a vocal appearance in this episode. He's the radio dj.

[Johnny Gomez]

Oh, that's Thomas.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah, that's his voice.

[Johnny Gomez]

Had to.

[Diane Mercer]

Had to do it. Like, just had to do it.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Well, he was a dj. He was on kcrw.

[Johnny Gomez]

He was Dizzy Gillespie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

He's got a great, great radio voice. So it was super fun to have him do that.

[Chris McCaleb]

The one other thing I want to ask, a scene that I really love is when Carol and Zosia go up to that kind of mountaintop, and the train is in the background, and they're just sort of talking about train sounds.

[Melissa Bernstein]

It is good that Diane is here for that. The train that wasn't. I mean, the setting is.

[Chris McCaleb]

Are you telling me that's not real?

[Diane Mercer]

Unbelievable. You know, we tried. You know, we definitely talked about. Vince was like, let's find a place that has a real train. And it was like, we don't control the train schedule, man. Like, even if we find a place where there's a train.

[Johnny Gomez]

What are you talking about? We got Air Force One. We couldn't get a train.

[Diane Mercer]

Hate to break it to you, John.

[Chris McCaleb]

No, we got sprouts.

[Diane Mercer]

We did get sprouts, which was a big sprout, so.

[Skip McDonald]

And didn't we get Barnes and Noble, too?

[Diane Mercer]

And we got Barnes and Noble. We had to shoot at 2 in the morning. But we did get Barnes. We got Las Vegas too.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah, we cleared out Las Vegas. We didn't clear out Las Vegas. It's digital magic.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah. No, the train. Melissa found this great overlook. Christian Diaz de Bedoya, our amazing longtime location manager, oft mentioned. Yes.

[Chris McCaleb]

Because he's a lot of magical places. Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah. So he found a lot of desert that we had not been to before. And it just was kind of the perfect place to put that train down in there. It was fun.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah. And the sunset, beautiful.

[Johnny Gomez]

Like the one day it didn't rain or get too windy. It was beautiful.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah, we liked that one. That.

[Johnny Gomez]

Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

And I love that moment too. I mean, the train is just incidental, right? Because I mean, yeah, you want it to look great and everything, but like the real beauty of that moment is Carol telling them something they don't know.

[Skip McDonald]

Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

She's opening up to them and they're surprised, which I don't think we've seen the others be surprised before. So story wise, that's one of my favorite moments.

[Chris McCaleb]

And the surprise in seeing Carol also.

[Diane Mercer]

Be surprised that they don't know.

[Chris McCaleb]

And I think surprised in herself that that softness is able to come out.

[Johnny Gomez]

Yeah.

[Diane Mercer]

There's like the vulnerability of like telling somebody something that you realize you've never actually even articulated before.

[Melissa Bernstein]

And like the unknowableness of being human. Like there's so many things even in the closest relationships, it's impossible to share everything.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah. How well do we know ourselves?

[Melissa Bernstein]

Yeah.

[Chris McCaleb]

In some. In some capacity.

[Diane Mercer]

Yeah.

[Melissa Bernstein]

Very worthy of examination.

[Chris McCaleb]

And that's what we do on this podcast. We examine the human condition and what is knowable and what is not knowable. And we'll have to wait till next week to find out what else is knowable. Man. Thank you guys for coming in on a. On a Saturday. This is the last podcast that we're recording as a group, which I'm so grateful that we got to do this. It's so fun to talk with all of you and talk about making this show that I know we all love so much. So thank you guys for coming in.

[Diane Mercer]

And loving the time.

[Skip McDonald]

Thanks for having us.

[Chris McCaleb]

Yeah. All right. Thank you so much to Melissa Bernstein, Johnny Gomez, Diane, Maria Mercer, and Skip McDonald. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by High Bridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed, including those bonus episodes. And watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeeste and Nicholas Tsai. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me. Your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.