S1E9: La Chica o El Mundo

Summary

Pluribus: The Official Podcast

Episode Title: S1E9: La Chica o El Mundo
Host: Chris McCaleb
Date: December 24, 2025
Guests: Vince Gilligan (Creator), Gordon Smith (Co-writer/Director), Trina Siope (Co-EP), Rhea Seehorn (Lead Actor, Carol Sturka)

---

Episode Overview

This season finale edition of the Pluribus podcast delivers an in-depth, candid, and lively behind-the-scenes conversation about creating episode 109, “La Chica o El Mundo.” Host Chris McCaleb leads a roundtable with the show’s creator, key writers, a producer, and star Rhea Seehorn. The team unpacks the creative decisions, technical challenges, set stories, and emotional arcs driving the dramatic conclusion of Season 1. The discussion is rich in spoilers and crafted for dedicated fans eager to go deeper into the series’ construction and its memorable season finale.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Creative Decisions Behind the Season Finale

• Evolving the Ending:

  • Several alternate finales were considered before landing on the “atom bomb” moment for Carol, prompted by studio notes for a more definitive season endpoint.

  • Gordon Smith:

    “We had a series of somewhat softer endings that were interesting, but not quite as much of a line in the sand. And this felt like a line in the sand.” (03:06)

  • Vince Gilligan emphasizes embracing feedback:

    “Listen to every note. Not slavishly. Not assume every note is 100% correct. But there is probably something wrong here… you want to get forensic. Like a forensic pathologist to figure out, okay, there is a problem here, let's figure out what it is.” (04:18–05:22)

Building the Cul-de-Sac and On-Set Anecdotes

• Set Design Details:

  • Carol’s house was constructed both on a backlot and as an interior set, expanding incrementally through the season.
  • Rhea Seehorn shares about the immersive, sometimes confusing set experience:

    “By the end, so much of it was built… I’d walk out and be surprised that I was on set or on the backlot. I would totally forget.” (05:50–06:33)

• Mice and Prop Mishaps:

  • The partially constructed set (described as only “half colonized by people”) led to rodent problems and comic signage like “this is not a bathroom” taped on buckets.
  • Rhea:

    “It makes me really sad that that had to be written. Like, what was going on before that?” (08:27)

Portraying Language Barriers and Technical Acting Challenges

• Carol and Minusos’s Translator Scene:

  • During their climactic encounter, the actors wore earpieces, hearing real-time translations, requiring them to time their acting with both the translation and character ignorance.

  • Rhea Seehorn:

    “We’re supposed to play people that don’t know what each other’s saying. So you have to wait for the translation… play the actual frustration of when you have to wait. And the comedic absurdity of it, without the characters thinking it’s funny.” (09:51–10:46)

  • The pacing and emotional rhythms had to adapt to the structure of translated conversation, with moments of intentional overlap and delay to communicate misunderstanding and dramatic tension.

• Screen Tests & Actor Chemistry:

  • Rhea commends Veska (Minusos) as “magnetic to watch… he has delivered 10 times over on what people expected.” (12:34)

Stunts, Choreography, and Filming Difficulties

• Physical Performance:

  • Running scenes involving Carol required nuanced “modulation” of fear and urgency, distinguishing a “7.5 panic” from a “9.2 panic” (16:08).

• Stunt Double Praise:

  • Rhea Seehorn on her stunt double:

    “Heather backs a truck super fast in a frame, jumps out a frame… you come in… swap again. That’s a double Texas swap. One of them is the best I've ever seen.” (16:55–17:07)

• Practical Effects:

  • Cocking the shotgun moment is cited as one of Carol’s most “badass” moments and a highlight for the writers and cast (17:38–17:45).

Emotional Journey and Character Arcs

• Carol’s Isolation and Emotional Logic:

  • Carol’s evolving sense of dislocation and desperation is discussed, particularly her long periods of alone time.
  • Rhea Seehorn:

    “She has fallen in love with holding onto a raft… Part of her knows… I am not uniquely her romantic partner… but this is the only raft I have.” (21:18–21:30)

• Acting Without Mirroring:

  • Rhea on Carolina Widra’s performance (Zosia):

    “As humans, we are built to mirror the emotions… as actors, we’re supposed to be affected by our scene partner, and she couldn’t do either… she had to thread that needle.” (19:13–19:44)

Building the Quechua Village & Cultural Authenticity

• Production Design:

  • The village set was hand-built on a ranch in Pecos, with about 30 actors, striving for authenticity and contemporary indigenous representation (23:07–24:03).
  • Efforts were made to hire local indigenous actors from New Mexico and ensure accuracy in costume, hair, and makeup (25:05–25:05).

• Language and Casting:

  • Notably, several actors spoke Quechua, with special praise for Dorinka, a Peruvian actor and student at NYU (25:24–25:35).

Filming Locations and Logistical Challenges

• Montage/Vacation Sequence:

  • Originally planned for Spain, the “last temptation” sequence had to pivot to include Montana due to weather and strike delays, which enhanced the sense of time passage and emotional tone (28:31–30:34).
  • Rhea:

    “There was something about being with the backdrop with the windows… intimate that I’m with her, but also, without her Carol is alone in the world.” (34:13–34:49)

• Apres-Ski Scene:

  • The crew constructed set pieces (like the fireplace) in a real mountain restaurant, navigating subzero temperatures to capture the right aesthetic (29:39–30:34).

• Gondola Scene & Motion Sickness:

  • Rhea admits to motion sensitivity, recalling having to ride a real, slow, reset-intensive glass gondola for multiple takes—alleviated by heated seats (34:16–35:10).

Helicopter Stunt and Aerial Realism

• Real Pilots On Screen:
  • The sequence showing Carolina piloting a helicopter was shot practically, with stunt pilots Steve Stafford and Angela Krieg involved:

    “That is a whole different level of flying a helicopter. I did four hours of training with long line work… I was so queasy. At that moment, I threw up on the ground.” —Vince Gilligan (36:53–37:26)

  • Camera angles were meticulously chosen to hide the presence of professional pilots and sell the illusion (38:07).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Studio Notes & Creativity:

  “You want to get forensic… There is a problem here. Let’s figure out what it is.”
  —Vince Gilligan (05:09–05:22)

• On the Translator App Scene:

  “You have to wait for the translation. And the sort of comedic absurdity of it, without the characters thinking it was funny.”
  —Rhea Seehorn (10:39–10:46)

• On Physical Comedy On Set:

  “There was a huge bucket tub with a lid on it and a giant sign in Sharpie that said, ‘This is not a bathroom.’ It makes me really sad that that had to be written.”
  —Rhea Seehorn (08:27)

• On Character Journey:

  “She has fallen in love with holding onto a raft...I am not uniquely her romantic partner...but this is the only raft I have.”
  —Rhea Seehorn (21:27–21:30)

• On the Team’s Bond:

  “Our crew actually hangs out with each other when we’re not working… we can’t get enough of each other.”
  —Trina Siope (31:29–31:44)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Creative choices around the finale & studio notes: 02:59–05:37
• Carol’s house, set-building stories & mice: 05:48–08:27
• Translating drama: Acting through the language barrier: 09:17–12:34
• Stunt doubling & Texas Swaps: 16:29–17:15
• Carol and Zoshit’s confrontation: 18:17–21:30
• Building the Quechua village: 22:46–25:05
• Spain/Montana shooting & the après-ski scene: 28:31–34:14
• Gondola and helicopter sequences, practical stunts: 34:16–38:07

---

Tone & Language

The episode is relaxed, playful, and often self-deprecating, marked by in-jokes about Hollywood trivialities (umbrellas, running, walking, prop mishaps) and genuine admiration for all contributors—from performers to the stunt team and art department. Technical discussions are accessible but honest about the challenges, and there’s a consistent sense of camaraderie and affection throughout.

---

Concluding Thoughts

The team expresses gratitude for both their collaborative process and the audience response, with hints at bonus content or further reflections to come.

“This has been such a treat to, you know, take this journey with all of you.”
—Chris McCaleb (38:45)

---

For “Pluribus” fans, this episode is a warm, insightful invitation inside the writers’ room, the set, and the emotional heart of the series—illumining the details that make its world so compelling.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to Pluribus, the official podcast, an intimate insider conversation about the making of the Apple TV series with the cast and creators behind the show. My name is Chris McCaleb, I'm one of the editors of Pluribus and I'm the host of this podcast. This isn't a recap show. It's more of a wide ranging roundtable discussion about the making of each episode. So I strongly recommend watching the show before you listen because we're going to talk openly spoilery about everything. This podcast is about episode 109, entitled La Chica o el mundo, written by Gordon Smith and Alison Tatlock and directed by Gordon Smith. In this season one finale, Kusamayu joins the collective. And then Carol and Minusos finally meet face to face. And they're forced to navigate their evolving feelings about this new reality. There's so much to talk about this episode. So without further ado, please welcome our guests creator, Vince Gilligan.

[B]

Hello, Chris.

[A]

Co writer and director of this episode, Gordon Smith.

[C]

Good to see you, Chris.

[A]

Co executive producer, Trina Sciope.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

And our star, our Carol Sturka. It's Ray Seehorn.

[E]

Yay. Excited to be here.

[A]

Hey, everybody. Thanks for being here. And also with us today on the mix board on the Ones and twos is assistant editor Nicholas Tsai.

[C]

Hi, Nicholas.

[D]

Hey.

[A]

All right, now, back on the board.

[E]

No, just the ones and the twos.

[A]

It's like a DJ thing.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Yeah. Well, who's to say you don't know what you're saying? The wheels of steel, the ones and twos.

[B]

No, it's a reference to DJ stuff. It's a reference to Lawrence Welk and A1.

[C]

I like that too.

[B]

That's what the kids are into these days.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, this is the season one finale.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Episode 109.

[B]

It went so quick.

[C]

It did, did.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

You can remember all of the things that we said in previous episodes.

[A]

I know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Should we tell them how we make the sausage? This is the second one we're recording.

[A]

Yes, we. Yes, we. Full disclosure. Peeking behind the curtain. We just finished recording the 101 podcast. So the premiere and the finale of the season all in one.

[C]

Yeah. I was going to start doing things like. Well, as you said, ray, on the 103 podcast, the other full disclosure is.

[E]

That 109 is not finished.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But we cut you out of it too.

[E]

Yes. Gordon was just telling me.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Like I say, you die off screen.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

In a helicopter act.

[E]

Oh. Not even on screen. Wow, that's a blow. No no, no.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

A little bit of a your blood.

[C]

Kind of your blood.

[A]

But that's how Carol goes. And it's, it's. Look, it's a choice, it's a creative choice.

[E]

I could still pop out of the bomb box, though.

[A]

In season three, Carol finally gets her atom bomb.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[C]

Which was a hard fought choice. We actually, we came to that while we were working on the episode because we had delivered several scripts to Apple and they would gently push back and said, we don't know, this is a big enough ending for a season. And we thought about it and Vince and I talked about it a lot and we were like, what about this? What if they just. She asks for an atom bomb. We had a series of somewhat softer endings that were interesting, but that were not quite, quite as much of a line in the sand. And this felt like a line in the sand. We don't know exactly what it means.

[B]

But the folks we work with are really smart. And there was an executive note that made the ending better, made it what it is.

[E]

Nice.

[B]

So it worked out pretty good.

[A]

You know, Vince, something I've learned from you over the years is not disregarding any note and taking even a bad note, which that was not. But even like historically a note that you know doesn't work or won't work, but trying to address it because it gives you the opportunity to make something better. It gives you just that, like one extra pass to say, how can we make this better?

[B]

You know what it is? It took me a while to get there because I certainly had my share of years where I was thinking, oh, these people are idiots. I'm the only genius, so you gotta break yourself for that. I mean, you can do it any way you want. If you're lucky enough to get this job, do it any damn way you want.

[E]

But.

[B]

But my advice is to listen to every note. Not slavishly. Not assume every note is 100% correct. But the trick is that I found if you get certain notes about a certain scene, for instance, in an episode, and you get notes from different people and they're all kind of wildly different and they're all, on the face of it, not workable.

[E]

Not workable how?

[B]

Not workable as in, you know, in your gut, you know, in your heart, they're not going to make it better. They're not the way to go. The trick I have found is to look beneath them and say to yourself, okay, their fixes they are presenting, they are offering, are not going to do the Trick. But there is probably something wrong here because we've gotten a couple notes from a couple different people. They're not worded the same, but there must be a little bit of a problem here. So you want to get like, Quincy. You want to get. Yeah, the kids will know what the hell that means. You want to get forensic. You want to, you know, like a forensic pathologist to figure out, okay, I got to deconstruct this. I got to figure out. There is a problem here. Let's figure out what it is.

[E]

I'm detecting something.

[B]

You got to be a detective at a certain point, maybe.

[E]

Got it.

[C]

Yeah. The note beneath the note is a good way to look for things. And it gives you the opportunity to readdress and be like Chris was saying, is there a better thing here? Is there something else to try?

[E]

Right.

[A]

Speaking of, is there a better thing? Carol and Minusos finally coming together. Finally meeting in real life in front of Carol's house in the cul de sac. I want Carol's house.

[E]

It is a beautiful house.

[A]

I need that house. Right.

[E]

Denise Pizzini designed a beautiful house and the construction, two beautiful houses. Yes. There's the back lot and then there's the set. And as we went through the season, they would build further and further towards the interior of the back lot. One, it was just more like right towards the windows. So you could shoot over me to shoot out her and all of these great viewpoints of the cul de sac. But if you were shooting in, you were pretty limited. So they kept building more in. And by. I have to say, by the end, so much of it was built and there were so many days where I would walk out and be surprised that I was on set or surprised that I was on the back lot. I was like, oh, that's weird. I thought I was. Yeah, I would totally forget.

[B]

So you'd walk out and think you were going to walk into the cul de sac and then you walked into the soundstage.

[E]

Yes. Or the other way around.

[B]

Or the other way around. That's.

[E]

Or I'd go run to like the stairs and they're not going or whatever. It was always funny. And I had a running joke with my fabulous co star, Carolina Widra, because she would often go and sit in one of the rooms and be on her the phone or more often than not, studying her script or just reading or writing in her book and like walking past that set to go to wherever we're filming. And she was forever surprised. And I was like, you know, you're not alone. Right. Like, we're shooting a show. Like, you're not in a Airbnb by yourself. You were just filming, and now you're over there. And I'm. She would always like, oh, Jesus. I'm like, yes, there's people here because we're on a soundstage.

[C]

The other thing that happened by this point in the season by nine, the shell house, the backlot house. Things you don't think about when you leave a hot house basically unattended. You get a lot of mice, you get a lot of animals. Because it's not a house. It's not really sealed like a house. And so we were like, oh, right. This is essentially still half colonized by people, this area. So we were, like, constantly dealing with mice and bugs and things.

[E]

Yes, I do remember that.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

Remember when Simon had to. Simon, one of our transport drivers, when he had to go over because somebody was letting their dog poop in the fake little park yard?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Thought it was actual, real dog park. It, like, took their dog park.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

Is that, like, people using the toilet at Home Depot? Like the display toilets?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Knock until you've tried it.

[C]

That's like using the toilet on set. Yeah. Right. Because if we want to flush the toilet on set, you got to rig it up with special toilets, which I.

[D]

Have seen, and I will not name names, but, yeah, it has happened.

[A]

Not on our sets.

[D]

Not on our set.

[A]

Not on our cruise.

[D]

Not on our cruise.

[E]

There was a giant tub in, like, one of the annex rooms. It wasn't labeled, like, electric or props or anything, but it came off the set, and there was a huge bucket tub with a lid on it and a giant sign and Sharpie on it that said, this is not a bathroom. And I was like, it makes me really sad that that had to be written. Like, what was going on before that?

[D]

Prop yourself up on the bed.

[E]

Who drops by, spots a bucket, is like, yep, this is where I should go. Not the bathroom that's 10ft away from here.

[B]

Again, I'm not liking the judgment.

[C]

I was gonna say. I was gonna say, Vince, you as. As somebody who has directed. You know, you can't get offset that often. Sometimes you can't get far away.

[D]

Sometimes the bathroom comes to you.

[C]

The bathroom comes to you.

[A]

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, speaking of which, of necessity and invention, one of the big ways that Carol Menusos were able to communicate is through that translator app.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And I know from editing it, I know that. That both Ray. Both you and Veska, I know that you both had earwigs.

[E]

Yes.

[A]

And you were hearing a real time version of that translation. And even though you all know the scene and you're fully studied and prepared, you have to be waiting for that translation to happen. Can you talk about the.

[E]

Yeah, that was technically difficult. Difficult. And he speaks fluent English. I do not speak fluent Spanish, I'm sad to say. But I know the scene, so I know what he's saying, and he knows what I'm saying very clearly. But we are supposed to play people that don't know what each other's saying. So you have to wait for the translation. Right. And then on top of that, working with Gordon, and we're working on it all together, and we realized that there were times when the pace necessitated us, by context, surmising what the other person said. Like, it was literally like a rhythmic thing where, like, the pace was off if you didn't, like, jump here, jump there. But there weren't hard and fast rules, and we had to all decide those things together and then play the actual frustration of when you have to wait.

[A]

Right.

[E]

And the sort of comedic absurdity of it without the characters thinking it was funny. Right.

[C]

Because, yeah, the word order is different in English and Spanish, but there's times where it's like, if you hear telephono, you're not going to.

[B]

Got it.

[C]

What does that mean in English? I just. I gotta wait. So you can just. There's places where 100% you know, you. When you're actually speaking a language, you kind of. You absorb it in a different way than word to word.

[E]

And also performance. Like, there were times when we did more heated takes, more, like, really combative with each other. And Carol would probably respond to somebody barking at her, regardless of what you're saying, like, don't bark at me. But there's other times where. When we would take other.

[B]

Snapping.

[C]

Yes.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

One of my favorite lines, do not snap at me. I speak snap. Love that.

[E]

That was fun. That was a lot of fun. And then. Yeah, there was other times where if you, like, brought the heat down, it would be a certain word that was further along in the sentence that would irritate somebody or exactly what are you saying? And waiting for that information. And plus, Carol's lying the whole time, which was so much. I don't. I don't know why they came back. I don't have any idea. Like, why. What do you mean? Why are you looking at me suspiciously? We had so much fun playing that. And that was the scene that he did the screen test with, the audition with.

[B]

Yeah, that's right.

[A]

Chemistry.

[E]

Chemistry read.

[A]

So had you done that scene with other actors before in the past for chemistry read, or was it just Veska?

[E]

I did.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we're not going to say who I did. I'm just saying. So you've done this scene.

[E]

I will say this. If a single one of them is listening to this. Brilliant. Brilliant. It was a decision of what story you want to tell.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Absolutely true. It's one of those situations where it breaks your heart. You can't hire everybody.

[E]

Yeah, but that doesn't take anything away from, like. I mean, he's shown he was magnificent, and then he has delivered 10 times over on what people expected.

[A]

He's magnetic to watch. Absolutely is.

[E]

Yeah. And he's very funny. He has a very dark sense of humor. When we came in from the desert, see the majority of the talking on the phone. And then I think you added Gordon, wasn't it? Added our cross into the back door.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, we added that. The walking by the grave.

[E]

Yeah. Yes.

[C]

Which we.

[E]

We had been doing the dialogue stuff and trying to figure out. And like I said, it was challenging but cool. It was like all hands on deck. We got to figure out how to make this scene work the best it can work. Plus, you have technical apparatus that you're trying to figure out. And Veska was like, you know, as all actors, myself included, we were like, is it us? Are we screwing it up? And like, no, no, no. It's just a thing where it's a puzzle that we've all got to figure out. So we finished that, and then you added that piece where we're passing the grave. And he just needed to put the umbrella down right behind me and then walk in, and he kept messing it up. And he was like, oh, are we still shooting this scene? I think for a second, it didn't click that we added that section that it's not that we're gonna go back and do the dialogue again or whatever, but instead I said to him, I go, apparently we're gonna shoot all day until you can put the umbrella down correctly. And he was like, what? He was like, oh, you're messing with me. I was like, I am, I am, I am, I am.

[C]

But that umbrella was a pain in the ass.

[E]

Total pain in the ass.

[D]

Looks great.

[B]

You mean more than most umbrellas?

[C]

Kind of quite large. It's a quite large umbrella. So getting it, like to get it up and get it right, and then there's the tag that's hanging down. The whatever. The tag that you wind it up and seal it up with was that dangling position.

[E]

I mean, it's no gum on an escalator, people. That's the hardest thing in episode one that I had to do.

[B]

Anyway, this is the hard hitting stuff that folks in the real world do. Drive trucks and work at factories for a living. Love to hear from Hollywood how hard it is to open and close umbrellas.

[E]

My dad, somewhere looking down, will be very happy though, because he used to always tell me that I can't walk, talk and chew.

[D]

Go up.

[C]

Is that your regular walk or is that your.

[E]

Angie, our first ad told me one day, like, do your. Was it her that said it first? You said it first.

[C]

I think you said it first. And then I started Ray and I.

[E]

Said, I was like, do your regular walk. And I was like, this is my reg. What's wrong with my walk? So I just started coming up with weirder and weirder. Yeah, I was taking weird, like, mini steps. Mini steps. Like the cartoon. If the music's like. It was that kind of run. But part of it was in the boots I'm wearing all through episode one and probably seven more episodes. I can't remember. But they had soft, like leather soles. And then the carpets were crazy slippery and I had a bizarre fear that I was gonna go careening into a window and. Yeah, but no.

[B]

And that would have been very bad.

[E]

I got it eventually, though.

[B]

You looked fantastic. It was great.

[E]

You have to take wide steps when you run. Wide steps.

[C]

Well, this one we had to figure out in terms of running because we had two big runs from your house to minusos house.

[E]

Yes.

[C]

In this.

[E]

Yes. And it was downhill.

[C]

Okay. You have to run and it's intense and you're worried, but you're not that worried. Okay, wait, you have to save something for the next. The next run is the real work.

[E]

You're. You're.

[C]

You're very worried, but not that. So it was like modulating these, like. Okay, so you got to run in a certain way that says, I'm really worried, but, like, not so worried that you're freaking out because we have to save that for the later run, right? Oh, my God.

[E]

No, that's not. Yeah, that's. This is like a 7.5 panic. Yeah. And then we're going to do like a 9.2 panic. And also opening the door. How panicked? Yeah, less panic, more. We had. That was fun. That was fun. But the amazing Heather Bonobo also had to, like, run for me sometimes. Who's fantastic? My stunt double.

[B]

We didn't talk about the world's greatest Texas swap.

[E]

Yeah, that was a good one.

[B]

That was a good one. Where Heather backs the truck up to pick up Helen, who's, you know, to get her to the hospital. So it was. Heather backs a truck super fast in a frame, jumps out a frame after Heather exits frame, you come in and.

[E]

Then go to the sandwich board.

[B]

Go to the sandwich board. And then we swap again.

[C]

Double. That's a double.

[B]

There was a double Texas swap. Yeah. But, like, one of them is, like, the best I've ever seen because literally, she leaves frame one frame before you enter frame. It's just like. It was amazing. It was the best I've ever seen.

[D]

She was so great. She got your mannerisms down and your run and your walk. It was so.

[E]

She studies everything.

[D]

Yeah, it was really great. Hard to tell the differences.

[E]

And she studies performance whenever she's allowed, which was whenever she wanted. I would want her to hear, like, your notes to me for performance, because she would take that in. It would change her body language and everything. But, yes, we did a lot of modulating to Manu Sauce's house, which was fun. That was fun.

[C]

Yeah. And of course, the big moment there. That's so awesome. Is the. The cocking of the shotgun when you're. When you've blown the thing up.

[B]

Remember now why we use you.

[C]

You're so cool in that moment.

[B]

That's why you're such a badass when you go. You're racked up 12.

[A]

Every single time we watch it, either Vince or somebody was like, I mean, so many.

[E]

That's awesome.

[A]

Oh, yeah, it's awesome.

[C]

That's awesome in so many ways. You know, they talk about, like, the hero's journey, and a big part of it is refusing the call. And it's so much of this season is Carol being like, does it have to be me? Do I have to do this? This doesn't feel right. This whole world. Sometimes it feels good, sometimes it feels bad. I don't like it. This should be somebody else's problem, but it's your problem.

[E]

Yeah, it was fun. And it follows directly my scene where I come back to Carolina, to Zoshit. I'm like, wait, so you love him the same?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, I do.

[B]

It's a heartbreaking scene. Yeah. I love that both of you are so good together.

[C]

She was great.

[B]

And I'm sure we've said that many times by now on the podcast, but in that moment, because you said something to me early on about it's a very hard thing to not give back the amount of energy you're receiving.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

You have a very different energy in that moment than she does, which is very important.

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Zosia is very solicitous in that moment of Carol's feelings, but she's not giving back. The thing you expect would be like, oh, no, we didn't mean to hurt your feelings. And she doesn't do that. There's a reserve there. It's very polite, and there is quite a bit of empathy. But there's also a distance there. I can't wait for you to see it.

[E]

I'm excited to see it. And it's super hard. And Carolina just crushed it. But it was a journey. And I would tell her all the time, like, dude, hats off to you. Because as humans, we are built to mirror the emotions and the visages that come and the gestures that are coming at us. If somebody changes the conversation into talking about something very sad, we tend to empathize and reflect it back. And, you know, they teach you all the negotiations, it's better if you don't mirror. But it's a hard thing to do. If somebody is escalating the conversation and making this emotional when it should be business, you need to not match them. And as actors, we're also supposed to be affected by our scene partner, and she couldn't do either. And yet she's not supposed to be cold and completely removed from caring about me. And she had to thread that needle all the time. And she was fantastic at it. And in her screen test, she was one of the people that was the best at don't mirror me. Because, I mean, there's times where I'm just. I mean, early on, the airplane scenes where I'm just like, get away from me. You're disgusting. I hate you. Blah, blah, blah. Like, I'm just awful.

[D]

Awful. Screaming at some. Yeah.

[E]

Screaming at people or crying or, like, in deep pain, and you can't fix it. And those were hard for me, too, because I would ask you and Gordon all the time, like, so has Carol lost her mind here or, like, just trying to figure out what's the level of denial and what's the level of like. To me, in the end, I thought she has fallen in love with holding onto a raft. Cause I just am. It was one of the ways I started to process it is like, she just. Yes. There's a part of her that knows. I've already been explicitly told that I Am not uniquely her romantic partner. Plus, these people, as I've already had an argument, you know, with diabate, that, like, this isn't real consent. These people, like, you know, whatever. I'm still choosing to let go. Part of it is Helen's. I think hearing Helen in my mind and in my heart that, like, can't you ever just let go and be happy? And she never could. So maybe that is the answer. Maybe I need to stop just struggling, just float, just go in the direction the river's going. And this is the only raft I have. And so it behooves her to try very hard to believe in it.

[B]

That's well put. And you know, 40 days, it's almost.

[E]

Yeah, it's what you guys remind me all the time. The isolation she went through.

[B]

I hope I never found. I hope none of us ever find out what it's really like. But I've read all my whole life that solitary confinement is one of the worst punishments that anyone can give you.

[E]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

When there's like two days when Jen is out of town and I'm alone in the apartment, I start talking to myself like I'm a lunatic for 40 days.

[E]

Like.

[C]

And that's in an apartment where there's people, there's. Where there's a city around. But if I'm just like, isolated by myself, like walking around with the cats.

[E]

Right.

[A]

Well, yeah, well, looking back, looking back at the season, I mean, in episode seven, when Carol is alone all that time and she's filling the silence with song and just singing and singing and you're watching somebody really lose it.

[D]

Yeah, right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Descending to the depths.

[E]

Well, also, there is no end in sight. It isn't. I'm by myself until my partner comes back. Like, there is no other end. She's seemingly going to be like this forever. Right. And The Golden Girls DVDs are going.

[A]

To run it like they should have made more episodes of the Golden Girls.

[E]

I think that's what she's thinking. Yeah, I think that's what she's thinking in those moments.

[A]

Yeah, well, it doesn't. It doesn't have to end. As we learn in the teaser, that happens in a very authentic looking Quechua village, which I wish I could have.

[E]

Seen that be shot.

[A]

Opening an umbrella may not be the. The hardest thing, but it seems like building a village, it takes a village. Yeah, it takes a village to make a village. And we're talking about constructing that village.

[C]

And Denise, our art department and construction department did a. An incredible job. It's A ranch in Pecos.

[D]

Pecos.

[B]

On the Pecos River.

[C]

Yeah, on the Pecos River. Just this ranch house in the. Off in the woods that had some flat land that was shaded into the valley. And all of that.

[E]

Other than the family members that we meet in episode two, how many more people are in that. The village scene?

[C]

Gosh, how many do we have? I don't think we had a. With like 25, maybe 30, something like that. There were about 30 folks in the village wandering around because they're doing a. It's.

[D]

It's a show for.

[C]

It's a Potemkin village, except it's a Quechua village. So it's. They've built something to keep up the pretenses for Kusamayo.

[B]

I mean, to me, it's her village.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

The village pre. Existed.

[C]

The joint.

[B]

But the people are.

[D]

They didn't leave as everyone else.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

To make her feel comfortable.

[D]

Feel more comfortable. Yeah.

[C]

And she's happy to. And she has said that she's willing to join them. This is sort of the test of that. Like, when you say, like, oh, no, sure, I'm willing to give up my individuality. How willing are you really? Like, when it's actually coming on a jet plane towards you, like, how much do you feel good about it? But the village was quite an undertaking. There was also. There's a little bit of VFX to make it a little. Feel a little bit bigger and feel a little bit more extensive and make it feel a little more Andean and less Pecos River.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So. So there's quite a bit of work.

[E]

I love the costumes, hair and makeup.

[C]

They did a great job.

[D]

So much research. Yes. Tech advice.

[E]

Sherry Montesano, Trish Almeida, Jennifer Bryan.

[C]

Yeah. And just making sure that it felt authentic and kind of not like it was a vision from the past, but like what a contemporary indigenous village would look like. And we could not get all South American indigenous people, but we tried to hire indigenous folks from Albuquerque, from the New Mexico region, and hopefully they appreciate it.

[E]

It was very cool talking to that aunt. And the. Who?

[C]

I think it's an aunt and a cousin, eventually.

[B]

Elena and Jennifer. Yes.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

And they do speak Quechua. And Jennifer, the cousin, she's from Virginia. She's from my home state. Wow.

[E]

But in Small World now, was Dorinka speaking Quechua, too?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[E]

She was impressive as well.

[B]

Wow.

[E]

She's Peruvian, right?

[B]

She's a Peruvian and a lovely young woman who is going to my alma mater, NYU film school, to study, being a director.

[C]

She's great. And she was very super cool. Very directable. She wanted to try things. She was like, okay, how was that? And all of that was great. But, yeah, the song was great. We also had a shout out to Phil Palmer, who is our production sound designer.

[A]

He's our wizard on set.

[C]

He's a wizard on set. He did years and years and years on Glee, where recording and playback and getting everybody to look like they're singing while they're. While you're doing the playback is. It was. Was their bread and butter. And so he was told me finding.

[E]

A place to hide mics on those costumes was real hard. Very tiny, very tight costumes.

[C]

But, yeah, but so he knew exactly how to, like, make this scene so that it would feel like this group of people was all singing even though it was pre recorded.

[A]

Yeah. Seeing those pieces come together, getting the dailies, it was. Every day was so exciting to see all that Stu. And that song just stuck in my head, and I found it very haunting. Yeah, I really love that part. There's one more thing in the teaser that I wanted to talk about when the plane lands. I remember you talking about this, Vince. That. That was Angela Krieg.

[B]

Oh, yeah, Angela.

[E]

She's another badass.

[B]

She's a badass. She was LAPD's first female helicopter pilot back in the 80s.

[A]

That's incredible.

[B]

And I fly with her sometimes.

[E]

She's so cool.

[B]

And that's Steve Stafford, the guy who taught me how to fly helicopters. Flying the jet. And then she hands out that box.

[C]

With the secret smoke in it to Henry. Henry is a stunt driver who half the crew knew. He's one of the most respected stunt drivers of the last, like, 30 years. Just like, everybody knew him and was like, oh, my God, you got him to do. And it's a very small thing, but he's apparently a kingy.

[B]

Yeah, Henry's the man. Actually. Steve knew him. Steve had worked with him years and years ago. And, yeah, everybody knew him.

[C]

They were just like, oh, my God, Henry. Hey. Oh, my God.

[E]

Trina. Do you. Because you did stunts, do you still know a lot of stunt people?

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[E]

It's a pretty small. It is world of people, isn't it?

[D]

It's kind of large, actually. It is small, but when you get into the different types of stunts, like, there is, you know, fighting. So there's a whole fight community, stunt community. And then there's like, the car drivers and those, you know, and then motorcycles, but it's another family. It's big, but small.

[C]

Do you Ever just do a fall to keep people on their toes?

[D]

Just like, oh, my God, all the time. I do the banana slip a lot. You know, I'll just toss it in front of me.

[E]

Whoa. I was going to ask if she could stop. Super judgy. When other people are doing their stunts.

[D]

Yeah, I'm just like in the back. Vince is holding me.

[E]

I'm like, come on, let me in there.

[B]

Let me in.

[A]

Coach, I did want to talk a bit about the kind of emotional climax of the episode and of the season. In some ways, when Carol kind of goes off. Well, it starts with this kind of romantic journey around the world. And do you want to talk at all about how that came to be? You know, because we were, as you see now in the season, we shot a bit in Spain and the Canary Islands and Montana.

[C]

So we had intended to shoot the sort of little montage of the vacation. Your attempt to go with the flow. Yes, we were going to shoot that entirely in Spain, but yeah, we had before the strikes, we intended to shoot in Spain in the summer. And then we ended up shooting in the North Atlantic winter, which meant that we were getting storms in San Sebastian and all this stuff. So we weren't actually able to accomplish what we wanted to do in Spain, which I think was to the better because then Vince and I were talking about it and we're like, we need to do something different here. We had one piece that felt like butchers by the pool. That felt like, okay, that's. That could be a start of this, this, this journey that you're going on of the Last Temptation of Carol trying to go with the flow. But we needed other pieces. And so we're like, well, what could we do? And so we sort of talked about what a. What a vacation, a world spanning vacation. You had the whole world to play with, might look like. And then we sort of thought, well, we're shooting in the winter, we've got to be shooting in the winter. Let's embrace that. Let's say they've gone to tropical locations. They go to the winter, they go skiing, they go do something. And so we scouted and we tried to figure out. We scouted in February and it was negative 27 in. In Mont. In Big Sky Montana, which some people.

[A]

That's too many negative numbers.

[C]

It got. It was cold. It was cold. It wasn't. It wasn't that bad. It was really bad.

[A]

It was bad.

[C]

When you took your gloves off for me, I was like, but you're from Michigan.

[D]

I take care of your Nose.

[C]

So I'm like, I was. There were some people on the crew who were like, you people do this to me again. And it was like. It was luckily warmer when we shot about a month, month and a half later. So then we got to. Got to Montana and we got this really cool. It's actually a restaurant that has that view. And so we redressed it as sort of more of a lounge area, more of an apreski area.

[A]

And I was surprised to learn that we built that fireplace.

[C]

It is a fireplace that was there, but it was not obeying the laws of film set. And so Werner, our special effects king, had to rig it.

[D]

Augment the flame.

[E]

Augment the flame.

[D]

Denise augmented the wood. The wood a little bit. Yeah.

[C]

The place is really cool. And it's very interesting postmodern architecture that we don't really see in most of the show. But it's a little cold. Very pretty.

[B]

But that's really the view out the window. Because a lot of people say, you know, well, they just digitally put that in. No, that's what's out the window.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Incredible.

[C]

So we got some snow, and we got some good placed blobs of snow falling in the background of various shots and serendipity. Yeah.

[E]

So, yeah, I think it ended up being such a wonderful thing that we got to shoot there. Just everything from adding that scope to the show, it felt like a better nod towards some time passage to have such a different looking place. And then just the way we all came back to film such difficult scenes was a crew that had been a part for a month and Slayer. Everybody got all this rest but missed each other. So it was like the perfect way to come back and say, oh, we get to do it one more time. And it was really nice.

[D]

I always say that, you know, you. You think when you spend that much time with someone, you want to kill them or, you know, I just want to go home. I don't want to see them on the weekend. I don't want to talk to them. Our crew actually hangs out with each other when we're not working. Like, we're with each other on the weekends, we invite each other to our party. You know, it's like we can't get enough of each other.

[E]

I expect craft service.

[A]

We have it up there.

[B]

I don't know if we've talked about the itoregi yet in previous podcasts. The itoregi, the wonderful boutique hotel we shot at in just west of San Sebastian in episode two, where the luncheon. The luncheon scene in Episode two.

[E]

Gorgeous.

[B]

Just to go a little further with what Gordon was saying earlier originally. Yeah. The wonderful vacation, the last Temptation of Christ sequence. As Gordon was saying, once, you know, Carol begins to give in to temptation, so to speak. Give in to the others. That was designed to be shot at the itoregi and it really. Just to amplify what you were saying. I'm so glad that various things conspired against us to not allow us to shoot at the itoregi. Because story wise, it would have been weird that she. Of all the places on earth she could go back to, she'd go back to this place where she. It's a terrible memory, you know. Yeah. So it worked out. You know, the film gods initially were frowning upon us and made it so we couldn't finish shooting in Spain, that sequence. But it turned out to be a blessing in disguise, actually.

[D]

And that pull scene is.

[B]

That's theater.

[C]

We were going to shoot sort of stuff that wasn't going to look exactly the same, but it still would have been identifiable, I think, if you looked at it. And it would have been a little bit weird. But there's also something of just. I mean, we were gonna do this in Spain as well, sort of sitting by the fire. But it really worked out with the snow. The feeling of just like, oh, this is so cozy. And I'm finally kind of let a weight come off, you know, everything. The rest of the episode is one tense run, really, for you. Of like, this guy's coming and he's doing things and I don't. I don't like it. And it's the trouble of another person. But then. Then it's, hey, this is okay. Oh, this is great.

[D]

We're here.

[C]

We've been hanging out. Oh, wait, yeah. Oh, wait.

[A]

You know, like just the ultimate betrayal.

[E]

The scope of, like, everything out the window. Like, I don't know why. I found it very beautiful, but very lonely.

[A]

Yes.

[E]

As opposed to. If we had been in that. At the itoragi, the stone sort of cabin that we were talking about. It's quite intimate because it was not a lot of views and closed and dark and tight. But I don't know, there was something about being with the backdrop with the windows. It was like, yes, it's intimate that I'm with her, but there's also this thing of, like, without her, Carol is alone in the world.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

The expanse and the emptiness.

[E]

That's exactly, yeah. That I really, really liked. And the gondolas were fun. I was afraid I was gonna. I have extreme Motion sickness, as many people on the show know. And when they said there's no way to reset that glass gondola to do the second take, you have to ride the whole thing around, I was like.

[B]

It won't go backwards.

[D]

What was it?

[E]

13 minute.

[D]

What was the time? I think.

[B]

I think it was.

[C]

Yeah, we had to wait.

[E]

Reset every take. You had to wait till the gondola came back.

[D]

15 minute ride you got on you.

[E]

And I don't ski. And even when I have tried, the JLift itself is the worst part for me. Whenever, like, look how beautiful it is, I'm like, I'm going to puke all over the kids on the bunny's lip. Like I. But turns out this very fancy gondola, glass enclosed sink, doesn't move at all. It was like so. And heated and it had heated seats. So if Caroline and I look like we're dragging ass, not getting out some of the takes, we were like, just toasting buns. Just toasting buns.

[B]

I didn't know your motion sickness was that bad. I'm sorry.

[E]

Don't be sorry. I ended up being fine. I ended up being fine.

[A]

Did you have that motion sickness when you were delivered in a helicopter? Back to your.

[E]

No, weirdly, I didn't feel the motion sickness in the helicopter. I thought that would also be very floaty because when I stay with my in laws at a lake, they have a little speedboat and I was afraid to get in the water because I used to get very sick. But they were like fishing boats where you're docked or anchored and just rocking. But this is like, if I can see the horizon line and I'm going at a clip, I don't have a problem. The helicopter, especially when Steve or Angela were flying with like. I don't have any problem on an airplane either. I mean, good turbulence. Like anybody when it drops your stomach. But. No, but take me in a car up Mulholland Drive. Forget it.

[A]

Did you. Did you have a problem when Carolina was piloting the helicopter? Because it absolutely, absolutely looks like she was.

[C]

Well, she was saying she was. Why would you say that?

[E]

What did we mean?

[C]

She learned to fly a helicopter that.

[A]

So I thought I could not understand in the dailies because that's practical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's looking down and she pulls a lever and the helicopter, it really. It wasn't on a crane. Just letting the audience know that's real. And you know somebody, a real helicopter pilot is actually piloting the helicopter.

[B]

But Ken Foal was the.

[E]

Oh, right, right, right.

[B]

This guy, his day job is either dropping water on wildfires or it is doing long line work. Which is. Which is what he's doing in that scene. He's literally lifting steel shipping container and dropping it over and over. Not dropping it, setting it down like a baby, over and over again, exactly where it's supposed to go. That is a whole different level of flying a helicopter. I did four hours of training with long line work. And talk about motion sickness. I got out of the helicopter, I'm trying to get this barrel down in a certain spot, and I say to the instructor, I gotta set it down. Is that okay? And he said, yeah, yeah. And I lay in the helicopter and I was so queasy. And he's showing me a picture of his daughter and he says, hey, you want to see a picture of my daughter? And at that moment, I threw up on the ground.

[E]

Wait, did you say it was something about, like, because of where your eye line is when you're dropping it is what made you queasy?

[B]

Well, you have to look straight. Well, it depends on which helicopter you're flying. Either you're looking out to your left or your right.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

When I was doing it, as I was looking, you have to cock your head at this crazy angle. The guys who do this, the men and women who do this are just. My head is off. I didn't mean to get off on this tangent.

[A]

No.

[B]

But Carolina, she looks so. It looks so real. And Ken is in the other seat flying. Gordon put the camera in the right place. Gordon and Paul.

[A]

And it really looks real for the audience. That is her in the shots where it looks like she's piloting the helicopter. That's her in a helicopter in the sky. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. It's crazy that we just were able to find a way. And all our camera operators, Matt and Roxy, who were able to find angles where we could just miss them. Just miss the fact that there's a pilot next to Carolina. So awesome.

[B]

It looks so cool.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a million other things I wish we could talk about, but we definitely out of time. Maybe we'll be able to do another mini episode or something to wrap things up.

[E]

Finale. We should.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, just. Yeah. And thoughts about the season and hopes maybe for what's come.

[B]

That's a good idea.

[A]

This is. This has been such a treat to, you know, take this journey with all of you and.

[B]

And I've enjoyed all nine of these podcasts.

[E]

They flew by like they were two episodes. Three was great. It was really good. Yeah. You're so funny in three.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. Thanks you guys.

[E]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

All right, thank you so much to Rhea Seehorn, Trina Siope, Gordon Smith, and Vince Gilligan. And thank you for listening to Pluribus, the official podcast, an Apple TV podcast produced by Highbridge Productions and Sony Pictures Television. You know, on a personal note, we have been just blown away, truly overwhelmed by the response to both the show and the podcast. We love making all of this and it means a lot to us that you're enjoying it. So thank you for taking this journey with us. We really, really appreciate it. Be sure to follow on Apple Podcasts to get the next episode in your feed, including those bonus episodes. And watch Pluribus on Apple TV where available. Our editor and mixer is Nicholas Tsai. Theme music by Dave Porter. Associate producers are Alana Hoffman, Justin Verbeeste and Nicholas Tsai. Executive producers are Jen Carroll and me, your host, Chris McCaleb. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.