Pod Force One – Episode Summary

Episode Title: From P*rn To The Presidency: The IRS Probe That Hit A Wall
Host: Miranda Devine (New York Post)
Guests: Gary Shapley & Joe Ziegler (IRS Whistleblowers, Authors of The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy)
Release Date: December 17, 2025

Overview

This episode features an in-depth, candid interview with Gary Shapley and Joe Ziegler, the two IRS whistleblowers at the center of the Hunter Biden investigation. Host Miranda Devine explores their claims of obstruction, political interference, and personal cost as they navigated a fraught investigation into the finances of Hunter Biden and alleged involvement of President Joe Biden (“the Big Guy”). The discussion spans their initial assignment, the systemic hurdles they encountered, how politics permeated their work, and their determination to uphold the integrity of public service.

Key Topics & Insights

1. Who is “the Big Guy”?

• [01:23] The guests clarify that “the Big Guy” refers to Joe Biden, as referenced in Hunter Biden’s business correspondence.
  • Quote:
    “The Big Guy in this refers to former President Biden, Biden and Joe.” – Gary Shapley

2. Origins of the Investigation

• [03:02] Ziegler describes how a tax probe into adult sites led to uncovering Hunter Biden's connections via financial reports and unpaid taxes.
  • Quote: “Normal part of my personal life...photos of some people in a hot tub with cash flowing...in one of those bank reports, um, Hunter was allegedly paying some Russian prostitutes...Did he file his tax returns? Show he was unfiled in his returns for a couple years...that naturally started the investigation.” – Joe Ziegler

3. Team Dynamics and Obstruction

• [05:20, 12:01] Shapley recounts how following standard investigative steps was repeatedly blocked by the U.S. Attorney's office and higher-ups, citing notable delays and failures to act on search warrants or explore connections to Joe Biden.
  • Quote:
    “We kept getting push back, push back, push back, push back...other investigative opportunities that we should have followed…we just weren’t allowed to do it.” – Gary Shapley

4. Jurisdictional Concerns in Delaware

• [07:46] Ziegler expresses early unease over the case being assigned to Delaware, given its ties to the Biden family, and documents concerns over fairness.
  • Quote:
    “I really didn’t have a choice...the Biden family lived five miles down from the office...is this the, honestly, the best place to work this tax investigation?” – Joe Ziegler

5. Political Sensitivities and Chilling Effects

• [10:44] Personal risks and local pressures: The case’s sensitivity led to personal threats, social unease among FBI agents, and professional doxxing.
  • Quote:
    “My information was doxxed, I had my driver’s license...I was offered someone to protect me because they had a high concern for my safety.” – Joe Ziegler

6. Repeated Roadblocks & Investigative Threads

• [12:01–16:43] Shapley and Ziegler detail how every attempt to pursue threads to Joe Biden, including search warrants, the infamous WhatsApp message, and campaign connectivity, met with deliberate delay or suppression.
  • Quote:
    “We were saying, you know, political figure number one. And...the prosecutors were told us to remove that from the case...For us not to follow...it’s really abdication of our duty.” – Gary Shapley

7. Election Year Delays & The Infamous Interview Attempt

• [13:58–16:43] Interviews of Hunter Biden and witnesses were postponed due to the election and after the transition team and Secret Service were tipped off, the core interview was essentially obstructed.
  • Quote:
    “We had to sit outside the house waiting for his attorney to call us...the interview was not going to happen that day. So it was a major interference on the investigation.” – Gary Shapley

8. The WhatsApp Message and Its Fallout

• [18:28–22:24] In 2020, a WhatsApp message from Hunter Biden—allegedly with Joe Biden present—was found, demanding payments from Chinese contacts with veiled threats. Payments followed soon after.
  • Quote:
    “I’m sitting here with my father and we’re ready to make a deal...My father and me and everyone my father knows is basically going to come after you.” – Miranda Devine (paraphrasing, [18:53])
    “...That’s when the deal actually goes through...millions of dollars that were paid over a few years.” – Joe Ziegler

9. Systematic Stonewalling (Search Warrants, Evidence Access)

• [24:10–27:42] Each time investigators sought location data, to subpoena financials, or take logical steps (even simple surveillance), they were held up or told to drop it by prosecutors, especially AUSA Leslie Wolf and DOJ Tax attorneys.
  • Quote:
    “...It was Leslie Wolfe, the AUSA, [and] the doj tax attorneys. And there was always this gaslighting...just this back and forth...to keep hiding, hiding and not letting us do what we needed to do.” – Gary Shapley

10. Direct Evidence of Biden Family Benefit

• [28:18–30:25] Money and favors flowed around the Biden family, with patterns consistent with influence-peddling and personal enrichment.
  • Quote:
    “Just the money flowing to the Biden family…if Joe didn’t have to pay tuition because Hunter Biden got paid a million dollars, that’s...similar.” – Gary Shapley

11. Deciding to Blow the Whistle

• [31:03–33:14] Shapley recounts his moment of decision (Oct 7, 2022, after a Delaware meeting revealed David Weiss was not a “deciding person”), noting the progressive gravity of anomalies they’d witnessed from as far back as June 2020.
  • Quote:
    “The day I said I had to blow the whistle was October 7, 2022. That was the meeting...where David Weiss admitted he wasn’t a deciding person.” – Gary Shapley

12. Evidence Suppression: The Hunter Biden Laptop

• [34:08–36:10] The laptop was filtered by prosecutors before investigators could access it, which Ziegler describes as unprecedented and indicative of a pattern of information control.
  • Quote:
    “Normally evidence flows to investigators...In this case, it flowed from prosecutors filter to investigators.” – Joe Ziegler

13. Whistleblowing Despite Party Loyalty

• [38:01] Ziegler, a registered Democrat, describes feeling abandoned by his own party, expected support, but faced hostility. He reflects on his evolving political perspective and need for institutional reform.
  • Quote:
    “I thought...Democrats were going to want to hear my story...But they did not want to hear it. That was...so very disappointing to me.” – Joe Ziegler

14. The “Sweetheart Deal” and Judicial Scrutiny

• [41:19–44:15] Shapley describes watching in court as a judge rejected an initial plea deal that would have let Hunter Biden off lightly, crediting their whistleblowing and House committee action for forcing a real prosecution.
  • Quote:
    “I should send her flowers because...she went from us saying, ‘No, no, we were right’...to making DOJ follow the actual process.” – Gary Shapley

15. Pardons and Statute of Limitations

• [44:49–47:29] Joe Biden’s eventual pardon of Hunter, and the maneuvering to let key felony charges expire, are described as the culmination of a cover-up strategy.
  • Quote:
    “He wanted it to go away...if that ever went to trial, then we would have had to thoroughly investigate...It’s incredible that that got swept under the rug.” – Gary Shapley

16. Broader Governmental Obstacles & Continuing Investigations

• [47:38, 49:34–53:14] They discuss overlapping players from other scandals (Russiagate, intelligence agencies), the handling of Tony Bobulinski and Gal Luft, and how tips and informants were systematically ignored or stifled.

17. Retaliation and Personal Cost

• [59:41–63:59] Returning to IRS leadership under Treasury’s reform mandate, both recount absence of apology, personal hardship, depression, and public attacks—plus a defamation suit brought by Joe Ziegler against Hunter Biden’s lawyer (ultimately resolved satisfactorily).
  • Quote:
    “This was never about money. This was about protecting the sanctity of being a whistleblower...there were moments...I was very broken, couldn’t get out of bed, suffered from very, very deep depression.” – Joe Ziegler

18. Would They Do It Again?

• [66:36–68:55] Both say yes, despite everything lost, because they believe whistleblowing and truth-telling are moral imperatives.
  • Quote:
    “Hands down, I would do it again. Even though I’ve lost my marriage, I lost our home...I need to sleep at night. I need to be okay with who I am as a person.” – Joe Ziegler
    “It was just something inside of me...my inner self wouldn’t allow me not to come forward.” – Gary Shapley

19. Moral Foundations

• [69:01, 70:02] Both men cite faith, family, upbringing, and duty as their guiding lights.
  • Quote:
    “From God, from family...from my love of my family. And the love of the country.” – Gary Shapley

Notable Quotes

• On investigative stonewalling:
  “It’s really abdication of our duty. And it would never happen on any other investigation...” – Gary Shapley [12:01]
• On the WhatsApp message:
  “I’m sitting here with my father and we’re ready to make a deal...” – Hunter Biden message, via Joe Ziegler [18:28]
• On becoming a whistleblower:
  “I said, look, I’m doing what I have to do because...I was in this meeting...” – Gary Shapley [31:03]
• On equal justice:
  “We’ve got to treat every taxpayer the same.” – Joe Ziegler [36:10]
• On political disappointment:
  “They did not want to hear it. That was...so very disappointing to me.” – Joe Ziegler [38:01]
• On the aftermath:
  “It will never be the same...all the charges that weren’t charged...they got swept under the rug and you know, it’s almost criminal.” – Gary Shapley [44:49]
• On personal ethics:
  “I need to sleep at night. I need to be okay with who I am as a person.” – Joe Ziegler [66:36] “My inner self wouldn’t allow me to not come forward.” – Gary Shapley [67:41]

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Theme | |-----------|:-----------------------------------------| | 01:23 | Who is “the Big Guy”? | | 03:02 | How adult websites led to Hunter Biden | | 05:20 | Obstruction & start of pushback | | 07:46 | Delaware jurisdiction concerns | | 10:44 | Personal risks & threats to the team | | 12:01 | Blocked attempts to investigate Joe Biden | | 13:58 | Election year delays; interview attempt | | 18:28 | Hunter’s WhatsApp message discovery | | 24:10 | Systematic stalling by prosecutors | | 28:18 | Evidence of family enrichment | | 31:03 | Decision to blow the whistle | | 34:08 | Access to Hunter’s laptop controlled | | 38:01 | Ziegler’s political “awakening” | | 41:19 | Plea deal collapse in court | | 44:49 | Pardon and statute of limitations | | 47:38 | Weaknesses of official explanations | | 49:34 | Connections to other government scandals | | 59:41 | Retaliation, depression, and reform | | 66:36 | Would you do it again? | | 69:01 | Their sources of moral strength |

Conclusion

This episode is a raw, detailed, and personal account of whistleblowing at the highest levels of political power and the cost of truth-telling inside a politicized system. Gary Shapley and Joe Ziegler expose a series of obstacles in the Hunter Biden probe, voice frustration and disappointment at bipartisan obstruction, and reaffirm their commitment to equal justice and public service—regardless of the personal price. Their story, captured in The Whistleblowers vs. The Big Guy, raises enduring questions about transparency, institutional integrity, and the true nature of accountability in American government.