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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the Pod Force One podcast. I'm Miranda Devine. Today we're joined by Garry Shapley and Joseph Ziegler, the IRS whistleblowers who were punished for investigating Hunter Biden's tax records. They're authors of the new book the Whistleblowers versus the Big Guy. Gary Shapley, Joe Ziegler, thank you so much for joining us on Pod Force One.
- [00:25]
B
Thank you so much for having us.
- [00:26]
C
Yeah, thank you, Miranda, I wanted to.
- [00:29]
A
Congratulate you on your book. It's an amazing read and obviously a labor of love. The Whistleblowers versus the Big Guy. And it's out on sale now and I recommend it to anyone who wants to know the nitty gritty of the Hunter Biden story and the COVID up, which is really the bigger part, I think the more nefarious part. And that was of course, what we what ensnared you and made you lay your careers on the line to make sure that the truth came out. So you're both appearing now in your personal capacity. I know you wanted to make that clear because you're both still working for Treasury. Can you just tell us? The book is called the Whistleblowers versus the Big Guy. Who is the Big Guy, Gary? I'll ask you first.
- [01:24]
C
Yeah. So we went round around with this during our testimony, right? And the Big Guy in this refers to former President Biden, Biden and Joe.
- [01:35]
A
There was an email on Hunter Biden's laptop in which Hunter Biden's or several emails actually Hunter Biden's business partners referred to Joe Biden as the Big Guy. Or they made a comment. You know, there's one famous email where they say 10% of the proceeds of a particular deal with the Chinese company would be held by H for the Big Guy. How did you read that?
- [02:04]
B
So I guess it was multifaceted. The reason why it was important to us as a part of the investigation is because if you're holding income or if you're holding a percentage ownership for someone else, that's a nominee and that could be taxable to that other person. So when we were looking into that email, we wanted to ask various people about that and we were from the prosecutor, we'll think about it. Didn't really want to ask it. And that was really shedding the light on them really not wanting to fully investigate the case.
- [02:40]
A
Let's go right back to the beginning of this case. And it started with you, Jo. You were looking into some porn sites and the potentially people that weren't paying tax on their proceeds at the, on these adult sites. How did Hunter Biden's name come into that investigation?
- [03:03]
B
Yeah, so normal. Normal part of my personal life. You're on Instagram, Twitter, looking at different people's photos documenting their lives. And there were some particular photos which it shows in the book of some people in a hot tub with cash flowing all around them. And it started going following the breadcrumbs of the case. Got some bank reports. And in one of those bank reports, um, Hunter was allegedly paying some Russian prostitutes who were also on that social media platform. So that's what seeing that information kind of dovetailed into the case naturally pulled. Did he file his tax returns? Show he was unfiled in his returns for a couple years and that naturally started the investigation. So it came as, as a part of my normal course of being an investigator.
- [04:04]
A
Big Pharma blames everyone but themselves for high prescription drug prices. The truth. Pharmaceutical companies control drug prices and keep raising them even as Americans struggle to afford the medications they need. This year alone, they've raised prices on almost 700 drugs. Don't be fooled. Big Pharma looks out for themselves while you pay the price. Learn more@Pharmareformalliance.com paid for by pharmaceutical Reform Alliance Inc. Gary, how did you then get involved? As obviously as Joe's boss, you were, you know, a crack investigator at the IRS with many enormous successes, you know, big companies under your belt, billions of dollars that you've brought back into the, the American taxpayers coffers. And you run what is called the SEAL Team 6, this group of the best investigators in the IRS. And Joe was one of your guys. This was this just a normal run of the mill investigation. And what went so wrong with it?
- [05:21]
C
So yeah, I was a supervisor just of a general purpose group. We just worked general tax and money laundering drug stuff in Baltimore, Maryland. And then the manager that was running the international tax on financial crimes group, the SEAL Team 6, now, now we refer to them left. And I was promoted into that role and I took over that role in the very beginning of January 2020. And that's the first time that I met Joe Ziegler and some of the, some of the team there was right at that time. So I mean that was the best thing that I think Joe Ziegler did on this case, right is that this was just a case that he was working following the process, following the investigative steps, working with the U.S. attorney's office, working with our federal law enforcement partners. And that's what became the problem in the end? Right, because we, because we were following the process. We were following the same exact roadmap that we had taken on every other investigation. You know, we were trying to follow that roadmap where we kept getting push back, push back, push back, push back. Right. So it began like in June of 2020 with search warrants, so of physical locations. And Joe drafted an affidavit and we sent it up for approval. And the U.S. attorney's office said some of the famous statements like, is juice worth the squeeze? You know, are we going to get that approved? And, you know, just snowballed from there and to other search warrants that didn't happen, and, and other investigative opportunities that we should have followed to tentacle out to see what the network really was doing there, and we just weren't allowed to do it.
- [07:01]
A
The U.S. attorney's office was in Delaware, and the U.S. attorney at the time was David Weiss. And I know, Joe, when you discovered that your case was going to be farmed out, and this was at the end of the Trump administration with Bill Barr as the Attorney General, when you discovered that your case was going to be farmed out to Joe Biden's home state, where everybody is beholden in that very small state to the Biden family. The Biden family really rules Delaware or has ruled Delaware for 40 years. You were quite concerned, weren't you, that this case would go off the rails if it went into Delaware.
- [07:46]
B
It was quite evident that I really didn't have a choice of where, where this case was going to get sent to. The, the, the decision was made that was higher than me, but at that time it was twofold. I, I really had, I really, like, think that everyone has the best intentions until they don't. And I think my, my looking back at it now and like, really looking at the, like, what had happened. The Biden family lived five miles down from the office or a few miles down from the office. The guest house where Hunter Biden stayed for a while, five miles from the office. Throughout the investigation, we heard stories about, or we heard about Joe Biden coming into the FBI office. I mean, it was really, really concerning from, like, is this the, honestly the best place to work this tax investigation? When in the beginning I said it should have been D.C. from, from the onset, and that was, that was not the way that they wanted to go.
- [08:54]
A
No. I mean, you mentioned Joe Biden just dropping in to that local FBI office. I mean, is that a coincidence or is he trying to send a message? This is right when the case is being investigated against his son and he should not know anything about it.
- [09:12]
B
Even more than that, like you have, the politics were so strong in the district of Delaware, the state of Delaware. Like even when we were going through and we detail this in our book for the first search warrant, the judge made an improper comment and we had, and she had to recuse herself from, from reviewing that affidavit and signing off on it. So that already set us up three or four months behind as we had to redo investigative steps. And everyone knew of the Biden family within that state because it's so small and it's such a tight knit community even from, from, and we detail it in the book. One of, one of the FBI agents on the case had concern because he lived in the area and the Biden family that the sensitivity of this case. So I think that those are different things that I don't think came out in our testimony and I don't think that came out. But we lay out in the book describing the different inside dynamics of this investigation.
- [10:18]
A
Yes, that was really quite telling. That part of the book where you talk about one of these FBI agents who is moved into the area, into Wilmington with his wife and family and, and he says openly that he is uncomfortable about, you know, investigating the Bidens or executing search warrants with the Bidens because it'll kind of impact his social life. Crazy.
- [10:45]
B
Yeah. And I mean like you gotta it I, I, I don't think Gary or I never expected the turns that we took the took with this case to get to where we're at right now. I mean we detail in the book were on Twitter. My information was doxxed, I had my driver's license that was out there. And it was very scary for me and my family. I actually was offered someone to come over to my house and protect me because they had a high concern for my safety. So because of the nature of the investigation, I mean and the individuals involved, there was, there was so much politics at play from both sides of the aisle that I don't think we really realized it until we came forward as whistleblowers.
- [11:36]
A
And Gary, there were many investigative trails that led to Joe Biden, who at that stage was the former Vice president and the future candidate for president. And every time you tried to pull on a thread or Joe tried to pull on a thread that led to Joe Biden, you were blocked. Tell us a few of those incidents.
- [12:01]
C
In addition to the these search warrants that could have been of the guest house There, there were, you know, the whole Ukraine aspect, right, where there was potential fare violations. And we were trying to go down that route to understand the financial aspects of that entire episode. But also in search warrants, we were in electronic search warrants. We were saying, you know, political figure number one. And Joe defined who that person was. And the prosecutors were told us to remove that from the case. And you see several other areas, like 10% for the big guy. You see the WhatsApp message with, you know, my father's sitting right here next to me, and it's clear that he was participating in Hunter Biden's businesses. And for us not to follow that, those investigate paths, to look at the financials on that, it's just, it's really abdication of our duty. And it would never happen on any other investigation if a son had communications with the father in that manner, if there was talking about holdings for the father, we would subpoena or we would request documents from banks, we would include those names in search warrants and we would make sure that the money wasn't going to another party.
- [13:31]
A
Gary, tell us about the time that you'd had to wait and wait because of the election. And you were told that you couldn't interview Hunter Biden or anyone involved with him until after the 2020 election. And then you went to to go and interview Hunter Biden at his home in California. You were sitting outside with an FBI agent. Tell us what happened.
- [13:59]
C
It's clear that because it took so long for us, December 8, 2020, to finally do our day of action, to go interview Hunter BIDEN and about 10 witnesses on this case, that they wanted to stop that before the election. If it had come out and become overt, would that have affected the election? Maybe. But as I said, the memorandum that discusses what you do during the lead into an election is that you can't take actions. You can't fail to take actions for the purpose of helping or hurting any candidates. And so we were not taking those actions for the sole purpose of. Of hiding it from the American people. So that morning we were sitting out waiting to execute the interview of Hunter Biden. And it was a night previous that we received word that the Secret Service, the transition team and and others had been told about the upcoming interviews the next day or attempted interviews the next day. And because of that, it changed to we had to sit outside the house waiting for his attorney to call us to see if he wanted to talk to us. So of course, that didn't happen. And the first communication we received that morning when we were, when we were waiting to interview Hunter Biden was from the FBI ASAC that said that the interview was not going to happen that day. So it was a major interference on the investigation.
- [15:27]
A
Yeah. And Gary, I just want to really emphasize how unusual that was. I mean, you knew that the FBI was going to communicate with Hunter Biden's Secret Service detail just so that there weren't any gun on gun, you know, friendly fire sort of problems when you knocked on the door. But you were flabbergasted, weren't you, that the transition team, that Joe Biden's transition team was also informed. What business was it of theirs?
- [15:58]
C
No, it was absolutely no business. I mean, these are pieces of evidence to support obstruction charges. And it even goes back to the planning part. And the prosecutors, because we were going to do our day of action even earlier, right after the election, and then they gave excuses, oh, it's a contested election, so we can't do the interviews. And that's just nonsense. So at that time, there was no detail.
- [16:22]
B
Right.
- [16:23]
C
There was no Secret Service detail. So we could have just walked up to the door and attempted the interview. And it was just another example. When you start moving all the machinations around of what happened, it's just more protecting the Bidens, protecting Hunter Biden, because as soon as he got the detail, they knew that we were going to have to do all this coordination and likely not get to it.
- [16:44]
B
Well, and I think there was. There was one more thing. I mean, there was Covid going on at the same time, and I don't know if that was their saving grace that they could fall back on blaming Covid. But we, we were in the midst of a pandemic at that point, too, which I think is very important to highlight as well.
- [17:03]
A
Yes, that certainly delayed everything, didn't it? But also, it was a convenient excuse, I think, for everybody for Joe Biden during their campaign, but for. Also for your bosses who were trying to slow this down and for the U.S. attorney, David Weiss. And Joe, I wanted to ask you about. Gary mentioned this WhatsApp message, and that's a very curious, very interesting story that you write about in your book. And I think it was August 2020, correct me if I'm wrong, but you obtained Hunter Biden's icloud, which was, you know, a lot of it was what we'd already found or were about to find on the laptop, Hunter Biden's laptop. But this was additional material, including encrypted messages on WhatsApp and it's just set the scene for us. Hunter Biden, he's. We know he's at his father's estate in Delaware, in Greenville, Delaware. I know that because there's metadata on photos on the laptop that pinpoint that Hunter Biden was there that weekend and also Joe Biden was there and other family members. So just take us back to that moment when Hunter Biden is basically shaking down his Chinese partners by encrypted message.
- [18:29]
B
Here are the arguments that I've heard. So you're referring to the message, I'm sitting here with my father and we're ready to make a deal. And I'm paraphrasing what the words were, and it says, some deal that's going to be lucrative for me and my family. So I think there were multiple references to the family and to. I'm sitting here with this other person who happens to be my father, Joe Biden. And we're.
- [18:53]
A
But more than just. Just to interrupt a little bit, it's like I'm sitting here with my father and he wants to know, just like I do, where our money is. Like, it's, it's quite threatening. And then at the end, he goes, and if you don't do what I want, my father and me and everyone my father knows is basically going to come after you. So it wasn't just a casual, I'm sitting with my dad. It was, my dad knows what I'm doing and he's upset, too.
- [19:20]
B
So. And that's what I think is such an important part, because you hear from people, well, Joe Biden wasn't. Wasn't vice president at the time. He wasn't. He wasn't running for, for.
- [19:30]
C
For.
- [19:31]
B
He wasn't running for president. But so I think what this story is access to a family, access to contacts, access to a person who could be president one day, who was actually president. President one day. It's laying out this gamble of money to have access to this person. And it's this fear that you're setting that if you don't make this deal with me and my family, my father, it's not going to be good for you. And that's what I think is so very important with this, is. This is access to not only Hunter, but his family, his father, the administration, the prior administration or the future administration. And that's what I think is so important. It was getting money for basically providing information, contacts, all sorts of things that you can fill in the blank there. And what I think was. Was so important to us at the Time was, and I can remember, I think it was the FBI agent who called me and we're like, holy crap, they really said this in this message. And I can remember bringing that up on our weekly call and being like, hey, we should really get the location information. If we have his icloud, we can pinpoint where Hunter's at and we can make a determination where essentially there could be evidence related to this case and that could tie into a physical search warrant in the guest house. And what I think is so funny about what if we would have ended up doing a search warrant in the guest house, can recall back, they found some, some, I think they were top secret documents in the Biden residence in, I believe it was close to the area of that guest house. So imagine if two years earlier, three or four years earlier, we would have found those. Imagine if there were documents relating to Ukraine. That was the whole point of doing a proper investigation, was where is evidence relating to the deals that they were involved in? Where are those going to be found? And I think by preventing us from doing these logical steps, it was preventing us from doing an actual investigation that we normally would do.
- [21:48]
A
Yes. And look, as a sidebar, you probably know, but Robert Hur, the special counsel who was investigating Joe Biden's alleged improper handling of classified information, did find documents relating to Ukraine. So that certainly would have been pertinent if that had been part of your search warrant. And also, I mean, a few days after Hunter sent that shakedown WhatsApp message to his Chinese partners saying that he was in the same room with his father, didn't money flow to his accounts?
- [22:25]
B
Absolutely. That's when the deal actually goes through. And I don't recall the amounts, but it was millions of dollars that were paid over a few years. And I believe that the deal, if they were to move forward with it, would have been over a multi year period. Tens of millions of dollars.
- [22:44]
A
Yeah, I think 30 million for introductions alone was one of his comments. Yes, and I think $5 million flowed into his accounts within a few days of that WhatsApp message. Instagram Teen accounts default teens into automatic protections for who can contact them and the content they can see. Explore Teen Accounts and all of our ongoing work to protect teens online@instagram.com teenaccounts Running a business comes with a lot of what ifs, but luckily there's a simple answer to Shopify. It's the commerce platform behind millions of businesses including Thrive Cosmetics and Momofuku. And it'll help you with everything you need. From website design and marketing to boosting sales and expanding operations, Shopify can get the job done and make your dream a reality. Turn those what ifs into sign up.
- [23:37]
B
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- [23:44]
A
So what happened? You wanted to try and geolocate Hunter's phone to see if he really was with his father, I guess. And, and what was the excuse when you were told that you couldn't, you couldn't do that. And what was the excuse when you were told that you couldn't issue a search warrant on Hunter's. On the guest house where Hunter was living?
- [24:10]
B
So it was always pushing the can down the road. It was, we would bring the issue up. It would be, let's think about it. And then there was a hope that we're never going to bring it up again. And I can recall on multiple, multiple occasions because we were having weekly phone calls, weekly team meetings at that point, hey, what about this location data? Should we get this from, from the icloud? And should we look into where he was located during when those messages were sent? So it was always, always pushing, push. And even when going back to what you were Talking about before, 10% held by H for the big Guy, that was, I'll think about it. That was, I don't know whether you should know it was first, no, you shouldn't ask it. Then I'll think about it. And then we never hear a response, which way to go. And that was when it happens once or twice. We don't think it's a really big deal when it happens 30, 40, 50 times. And I think that's very clear in the book that, my gosh, these guys were just trying to investigate this case as they normally would and every single time a roadblock's put up in front of them.
- [25:18]
A
And who was the major roadblocker? Was it David Weiss, the U.S. attorney? Did he get involved blocking and slow walking? Or was it the prosecutors, particularly his top prosecutor, David Weiss's top prosecutor in Delaware, Leslie Wolf?
- [25:36]
B
So, yeah, and we document it not only in our congressional testimony, but in the book that it was not only the AUSA from Delaware, Leslie Wolf, but it was also the DOJ tax prosecutors who were, I have never heard in my life for us to do a walk by that is completely covert of Hunter Biden's residence doing a walk by to see that he actually lives there and what the situation looks like, that that would have to get approval from DOJ managerial officials. I've never heard something like that in my life. And they actually did not allow us to do that. So.
- [26:15]
C
Yeah, Maureen. And let me jump in. So, I mean, Joe was meticulous in his investigative steps.
- [26:20]
B
Right?
- [26:21]
C
He. He ran those meetings. It wasn't. We had those meetings. Joe ran those meetings. He had a running list of the. Of open action items. So it became a little bit of tension between the prosecutors and us because, you know, FBI just seemed to kind of go along, you know, you know, with whatever was going on. And, you know, Joe kept bringing up that, hey, well, we talked about this week. You've said you think about it now it's the next week. What's the answer on this? Right? And it would stay on that list. And then ultimately, through so many tasks that we had to complete right now, that item ends up in the bottom of the list. And it seemed like 10, 20% of the things that we needed to do ended up going down the list, down the list, down the list. And then it's like, we have to move on as investigators. If we're not going to be allowed to do it, we have to focus on what we can do. And, you know, it was Leslie Wolfe, the AUSA is the doj, tax attorneys. And there was always this, like, gaslighting kind of, or, well, we'll go talk to David Weiss without you guys here. And it was just this back and forth, and I'm not sure if David Weiss was saying no or, or if they never went to him, but it was just this big back and forth just to keep hiding, hiding and not letting us do what we needed to do.
- [27:43]
A
Gary, was there evidence that Joe Biden was benefiting from Hunter Biden's business deals with these shady characters in Russia and China and Ukraine and Kazakhstan, et cetera, Romania? I mean, I know the little bit that I found on the laptop was that Hunter Biden was paying for. Or there's an email showing him paying some bills for maintenance and upkeep on Joe Biden's house and the guest house on his property. Was there anything else that you got.
- [28:18]
C
Glimmers of the money was going for the family. It was always about enriching the Biden family. So if, if, if Hunter, if Hunter Biden slipped, you know, Joe Biden would come along and pay whatever it was, whether it was tuition or, you know, college tuition or any other types of bills. Right. So it didn't, you know, there were some bills, right, that we, that we showed. And you've, you've pinpointed there, but just the money flowing to the Biden family was what was is what. You know, if Joe didn't have to pay tuition because Hunter Biden got paid a million dollars, then, you know, that's, that's this similar thing. And going back to the video of, of Vice President Joe Biden in Ukraine saying, if you don't give me, if, if you don't fire Victor Shokin by the time I leave and he looks at his watch, he's like, you're not getting the money. Like this. This is like a Biden family tradition almost, right? To, to shake down people to get exactly what you want.
- [29:19]
A
And Gary, in your vast experience of running these investigations internationally, is this, does this fit a classic pattern of influence peddling corruption? Is this pretty standard sort of criminal enterprise?
- [29:42]
C
I mean, generally. Right, but it was a scale because there aren't too many people that can say, you know, I'm not going to give you the $40 billion if you don't do what my son was hired on this board to do. Right. And that's to get rid of the, the, the prosecutor in Ukraine who was investigating Burisma, the energy company. So, you know, yes, but the scale here and the amount of access that the family had and, and it goes on and on about how, you know, they were getting former heads of, you know, HSI or, you know, to, to do certain things for them in New York. It's just that generally. Yes, but the scale is really unprecedented.
- [30:26]
A
Yeah, HSI being Homeland Security to get visas for chairman, Chairman Yee, who was the head of the Chinese company that was paying Hunter and his family tens of millions of dollars. And can I ask you also, Gary, when did you start realizing that this was such a problem and that the people up the line from you were not helping you allow Joe to do his job? When did you decide to become a whistleblower?
- [31:03]
C
My day when I said that I had the blow of the whistle was October 7, 2022. That was the meeting in Delaware, U.S. attorney's office, where David Weiss admitted he wasn't a deciding person. And there were just other items in that meeting that occurred. But the anomalies started way, you know, really early in my experience with this investigation was around June 2020. And, you know, between Joe and we had a second investigator working this case as well, that we had communications all the time. Right. We were talking all the time. And at one point it became, wow, like, this is, this is something serious. Right. Like, so I said to the two investigators who their information would be discoverable. Right. If a trial ever came up, that I'll document it as the, as the supervisor. Because, you know, I've never heard of a supervisor's information becoming discoverable in a case. Of course, they tried to do that. They use that as a guise later on. But we went along, right, because we believed in the system. We believe the DOJ was going to do the right thing. I think that we were hoping that we were wrong, that this was a purposeful event to provide the preferential treatment to Hunter Biden. And we just, we went along. So we started. I started documenting more and more about the laptop. Long interview notes about laptops that went over to House Ways and Means Committee was released. And then ultimately October 7, 2022, is. Is when I decided to come forward. I sought counsel and I was very deliberate in the way that I handled it. I said, look, I'm doing what I have to do because this is some. I was in this meeting, I. And I said, you know, to Joe, I said, you know, this. You do what you know is right. Right. And so Joe, his decision point was, was much later. And I think it shows how, how conscious we were to. To that we believed in the system. The system failed us here, and that at different points of time when we needed to come forward and, and blow the whistle.
- [33:15]
A
And Joe, I want to ask you about the whistle blowing, but before that, I just wanted to get to the laptop. Gary just mentioned it. The FBI seized that laptop in December 2019 from the laptop repair shop owner John Paul Mac Isaac, who. Hunter had abandoned the laptop with him when he was trying to get it fixed some year earlier. And I wonder, you know, you had difficulty accessing that laptop, even though it should have been central to your investigation of Hunter Biden's business practices. Tell us what happened when you heard about the laptop. Was the first time you heard about it when we published our story in October of 2020 in the New York Post?
- [34:09]
B
No, I actually think it was before that. But I believe it came up during a meeting that the FBI had indicated that they had found out about this laptop and that this was Hunter's and it was actually my search warrant of that laptop. And what I think was so unique, there were a couple facets of this that normally evidence flows to the investigators and then from the investigators to the prosecutors. And in this case, it flowed from the prosecutors filter to the investigators. And there were multiple occasions to where I had referenced. I believe it was some of your different columns or some of your different articles where you had brought up emails that were supposedly on the laptop that I'M like, I haven't seen any of these yet. And it was from different points like that that I was like, why can't we actually go in and see the lab? Like, why can't we see this? Why is this information getting filtered? And there were some admissions from the prosecutors that, yes, there was some information that was held back. Not. Not what could be. Because Hunter being an attorney, not what could be privileged information, but it was actually, they had indicated that there was some other information that was held back. There was. I mean, we can go on and on. There was the code names for Joe Biden when he was vice president that I didn't even know about any of those until well after I became a whistleblower. And it was like, well, that would have been really beneficial to know from the FBI, because I'm sure they knew that that was his alias.
- [35:48]
A
That's right. He had a number. Joe Biden had a number of different alias emails that he used to communicate with Hunter and other people. J.B. ware was one. And, I mean, that's very unusual. And you would have thought that you would have had access to the laptop so you could ascertain just exactly what we were able to. It's ridiculous, isn't it?
- [36:11]
B
Yeah. No, I mean, it was. I mean, again, if it was isolated to just the laptop, we would be like, okay, we have these other means. Maybe there's a special reason for this. But when you add that up with everything else that we were trying, the normal investigative steps that we were trying to take, there was definitely a concerted effort. And I don't know the reason behind it, but I know there was a concerted effort to either shove this under the rug or hope that it doesn't see the light of day. And I guarantee that they didn't expect Joe Zigler to be investigating this case. Because regardless of which side of the political aisle that you were on, we've got to treat every taxpayer the same. And that's what I think is so very important from this, from us coming forward as whistleblowers. The book, everything is that we have to have a fair and equal tax system. That is so very, very important. If you are Hunter Biden or if you are on the other side of the aisle, it should not matter. We should be able to do our normal investigative process and either come up with the charges or end up not charging someone. We are. We afford that to the American people.
- [37:24]
A
The politicization of the IRS process, I think, was what was so frightening about this case. And that was really what you decided was important, wasn't it? Because, Jo, tell us a little bit about yourself. You're not a Republican, you're a Democrat. Tell us about your life and how you came to be in this unusual position as a whistleblower against the Democratic president and with the entire Democratic armament, the machine fighting against you, retaliating. What was that like?
- [38:01]
B
I actually grew up in a very conservative Christian household, grew up in Northeast Ohio. I, at a certain point in my life, my mind kind of went a little bit more to Democratic beliefs. I say to everyone, I am socially liberal, fiscally conservative. I'm very middle of the road. So there were a ton of elections where I voted for the Democratic nominee. And that's what I think was even though my politics aren't very important, I think they are important in this because I am treating everyone the same. Like, I did not allow my politics, I did not allow that to, in fact, doing the right thing for the right reason. And I guess throughout this entire process, I was so very disappointed because I thought in coming forward that the Democrats were going to want to hear my story. The people that I voted for in Georgia, they were going to want to hear, oh, man, what is going on at Department of Justice. But they did not want to hear it. And that was what was so very disappointing to me. And it really has kind of morphed and changed my view on politics. And I think I am starting to switch a little bit to the other side when it comes to I completely agree with the changes that are going on, and and I am very, very proud to see that we're actually trying to get rid of this, quote, unquote, deep state, this Hunter Biden issue, the case that we worked. It's a problem with Department of Justice, it's a problem with the federal government. And what I am so very proud of is that we're actually taking steps to change this, because the only way we change this is we learn from what we what happened in the past. We can't just shove it under the rug and be like, well, now we're moving forward. We have to reflect on it and then make conscious decisions about how we move forward.
- [40:13]
A
GARY it must have been a vindication for the two of you finally to see Hunter Biden plead guilty in California to various tax felonies, tax fraud, and the entire indictment was made up of your evidence that you had uncovered. And yet that was such a difficult place to get to because David Weiss, the US Attorney, had decided that he was going to do a sweetheart Plea deal with Hunter Biden where he would get off all tax charges, the, the gun felonies in Delaware as well, with just a slap on the wrist. And yet your whistleblowing just blew that all up. Tell us about that moment in court in Delaware when an honest judge started to question David Weiss's U.S. attorneys about the case, this sweetheart plea deal. And what was going through your mind when you were watching that happen?
- [41:20]
C
I mean, being a whistleblower has really changed my life, you know, and it will never be the same, and you know it. I don't think many whistleblowers get the opportunity to see the end. Right. Because what every whistleblower, I think, really wants more than anything is to see change of what they saw and why they took the risk of the forward. So Joe and I, actually we were able to see that. And that's part of the process, right, where at the beginning of 23, DOJ wasn't going to prosecute him at all. And then on May 15, they were going to offer him a non prosecution agreement. That was when I was coming forward to be a whistleblower. And David Weiss said, well, oh, well, he knows what's going to come out, right? So he comes up with a two misdemeanor plea deal known as the sweetheart plea deal. And then I testify and Joe testified. House Ways Means Committee Chairman Jason Smith filed an amicus brief with around a thousand pages. It was Joe and my testimony and the evidence that we provided to support that testimony, it went to that judge and that judge saw that information. And so she took a really hard, deep look at it. And she was like, something's not right here. That is unprecedented, unheard of. I've never seen it before. When there's a plea deal worked out and you're sitting there in court and the judge says no to that plea deal, I've never seen it. I mean, I'm sure it's happened, but I've never seen it before. So watching it, some of these things were difficult to understand, how important they were until like, you know, later on down the road when you're looking back. But at the time I was like, oh, you know, wow, that got thrown out. Okay. But the gravity of that moment, which I didn't understand then, was that if that had gone through, Joe and I would have been absolutely demolished. We would have been destroyed because DOJ would have had the story that we charged him with, what we could charge him with, and that's it. And then, you know, they wouldn't have forced to make David Weiss SPECIAL counsel so that then he actually had the authority to charge the violations that needed to be charged instead of Merrick Garland, you know, was saying all along that he did have that authority. He did not have that authority. They all know it. And it was, it was literally an admission to make him a special counsel so that he could charge. Right. So the gravity of the moment, the plea deal didn't hit me until after the fact. And the judge, like, I should send her flowers because she went from us saying, no, no, we were right. Really, we were right. We were telling the truth to making DOJ follow the actual process, following the evidence, getting it down the road. And Joe and I, like, look, we didn't need to be right. I didn't need to be proven right. But we have the luxury of we were absolutely right. Just like you were with a laptop brand.
- [44:15]
A
Yeah, Gary. I mean, it was an amazing situation where, I mean, eventually Hunter was found guilty by a jury in Delaware on gun felonies. That was, again, something that, that you and Jo investigated. And then, of course, the tax felonies. He pleaded guilty on the very first day of the trial. And, but I mean, then he was pardoned by his father, Joe Biden, as one of his last acts before he left the presidency. Were you surprised by that?
- [44:49]
C
No. I think Joe and I were the only people in America not surprised that the President was, was, was lying to the American people that he wasn't going to pardon them. We knew it was coming. And Miranda, not to belabor the point, but we're like, all the charges that weren't charged. Right. Like all the D.C. charges, that was during the time frame of when the money was coming in from Ukraine and he was the director and the board of Burisma, all of that didn't get charged. They were tolling the statute, which meant that, you know, there is a five or six year period where you can charge. If we get past that, you can't charge anymore. But defense can say, all right, no, no, no, I'll agree to toll that statute. So you can keep charging. Right. Or so you can charge in the future. And there's lots of strategy of why defense counsel does that. But in this case, it was David Weiss just unilaterally like, oh, no, you know, we're not going to ask him to sign that tolling agreement. So then those, those charges in D.C. completely went away. And the reason why he wanted it to go away, because if that ever went to trial, then we would have had to thoroughly investigate the Ferris stuff. We would have thoroughly investigate all the money related to Ukraine and it would likely have shown a lot more evidence of Joe Biden's involvement. So it's incredible that that went, got swept under the rug and you know, it's almost criminal.
- [46:13]
B
It was obstruction.
- [46:15]
A
It is incredible. David Weiss, I just want to reinforce what you just said. David Weiss, the U.S. attorney allowed the statute of limitations to run out on the charges that covered 2014 and 2015 were the peak Burisma years, including the period that you were mentioning earlier about when Joe Biden forced the Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko to fire the honest prosecutor Viktor Shokin, who was investigating Burisma, which was the corrupt energy company paying Hunter Biden a million dollars a year. So David Weiss deliberately let that go through so that it could never be charged. And then of course, Joe Biden extended the pardon unusually back 11 years to 2014, 2015. So that's as clear a cover up as it can be. Is there any opportunity that that could ever be opened up again? You know, that could it be investigated now without people slow walking and blockading the investigation?
- [47:29]
C
Yeah, so what you're, you're above my, you're above my prey grade now if, if a pardon is legal or not. But Joe, you can opine if you'd like.
- [47:39]
B
Yeah. So what I think I was most disappointed by was if you look in, I was really excited to see David Weiss's report. And when I saw it, I was like, you told members of Congress that you were going to answer some of these questions regarding the statute of limitations issues. Gary and I becoming coming forward as whistleblowers. And he completely, completely went over it and didn't answer any of them. He was hiding behind before that. This is an active investigation. I can't answer these questions. Then he's actually writes the report, doesn't opine on any of it. And then he's even called later for closed door testimony to where or I don't think it was closed door, but he testified again and he completely subverts the questions once again. So that's more of the COVID up. And I think what we're seeing being done now is through the House Oversight Committee, through the various committees in Congress that they're still trying to dig into this. And I hope that they continue to unravel and pull these strings because there were multi layers to the potential corruption that was involved in this. You had involvement from the CIA, you had, you had the FBI leadership in New York, who was, that was an aspect of this investigation, who during the same time that guy, I believe he was a special agent in charge. I don't remember his name, but they're finding out that there were some issues going on there. So I think that this story is going to continue to get bigger and bigger and I hope that it doesn't just stop here.
- [49:21]
C
Yes.
- [49:22]
A
Is what you're saying that there is an overlap with, with some of the same FBI agents that were involved in the Russiagate hoax also seemed to be involved in the COVID up for Joe Biden?
- [49:35]
B
Yeah, I don't, I don't remember the specifics of it, but there was a recent, there was a recent, I believe it was the oversight release this regarding an FBI special agent in charge in New York. And there, there was some tie into parts or aspects of what we were, what we were investigating. I think that that was brought forward in that.
- [50:00]
A
Yes, I think it's Timothy Tebow who was involved in the. Another whistleblower, Tony Bobulinski, who went to the FBI. He had been a partner of Hunter Biden's in some of the China deals. He went to the FBI before the 2020 election, gave them a huge amount of evidence and testified or was interviewed for a long time. Timothy Tebow was in charge of that. Tony Bobulinski's evidence was just buried, never used.
- [50:30]
B
What was so, I mean even Tony like it was. We were asking the prosecutors, we need to go and interview this guy. We need to go and talk, we need to listen to hear what he has to say. And those were continued efforts to say, no, no, no.
- [50:46]
A
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- [52:34]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And that was more, more threads that we were trying to pull as a part of this investigation that, that there were avenues that, that, that we couldn't go down. I mean, you go to the, the 1023, the fact that you have me as the lead investigator not hearing about a source of information to the FBI and, and the information that's contained within that, within that. I've talked to a handful of FBI agents about that and they said that that would never happen. If you are an investigator working this case and there is information that comes in from a source, we will share that information with you.
- [53:14]
A
There's another, I guess whistleblower you might call him. He was actually an FBI source, conference confidential human source, an informant. And he was paid by the FBI over many years, about a decade, very trusted one of their top informants. He had provided information that had resulted in many convictions. He spoke Ukrainian. He had gone to Ukraine and met with various Burisma executives. And this was over a separate sort of oligarch investigation. But during the course of that investigation, he told his FBI handler some information about the Bidens and their relationship with a guy called Nikolai Zlachevsky, who was the owner of Burisma. And many years later, Scott Brady, who was the U.S. attorney in Pittsburgh, was tasked by Bill Barr, then the Attorney General to look into a whole lot of information that Rudy Giuliani and others had come forward with about the Bidens, these various allegations. And Scott Brady investigated some of this information, found this FBI informant and sent out some his guys to go and re interview this informant and he gave them new information. And that new information alleged that Nikolai Zlachevsky had claimed to this FBI informant that he'd given bribes $5 million to one Biden and $5 million to another Biden. Now this informant's name is Alexander Smirnoff. He is now in jail. And the reason he's in jail is because David Weiss, with the new set of attorneys, U.S. attorneys and team that he had aggressively viciously prosecuted Smirnoff for giving false information to the FBI. Now to me, the contrast between the way that David Weiss came after an FBI informant who had provided damaging information damaging to Joe Biden compared with how he ran your investigation, it's chalk and cheese. Gary, what did you make of that Smirnoff investigation? Smirnoff is currently in jail for lying to the FBI. They also got him on tax charges.
- [55:48]
C
Yeah. So we should have had that information and we would have investigated all that information and followed it down. And if he was telling the truth, we would have used that information as evidence. If he wasn't telling the truth, we would have been able to dispute, dispose of that much sooner and make those decisions. So the, the biggest thing there, I think is that David Weiss was made special counsel and the only thing he did was spend his time trying to rehabilitate himself with the left leaning political parties. Right. Like he, there were other criminal investigations that were ongoing that Joe created out of evidence. Just like a case happens and then, you know, you follow the paths. And there were other criminal investigations ongoing that, that should have been charged. And David Weiss instead, when he was made special counsel, he tried to rehabilitate himself and he went and found, you know, someone that could, could provide, you know, a shred of, of doubt and, and, and reflection from his, his obstruction in this case. So he, you know, what better tool was it to say, oh, everybody, everybody on the left who didn't really want to hear what Joe and I had to say, they gave him, them fuel over the Smirnoff issue. Right. And David Weiss did that purposefully. It was David Weiss, I mean, Leo Wise and Derek Hines I know and I've worked with for many years. And, and you know, it's because of them that I think Hunter Biden ended up getting tried, charged with all these things. Right. But the manner in which David Weiss conducted himself concerning Smirnov and that's the only. He let other criminal investigations go. Didn't even look at him as special counsel, but brought that one issue up. It's, it's unbelievable and I hope DOJ is looking at that really hard.
- [57:39]
A
I agree. I, I mean it's such a minor charge anyway, like this is like misleading the FBI. He's an FBI informant and he's, he supposedly misled them on a date. You know, it seems crazy that they would have, that David Weiss would have expended all that, those resources to jail this, this one guy and not only that, but expose all his in court in the indictment. They exposed all his contacts with Russians, high level Russian generals and so on, which he did on behalf of the United States because he was effectively a spy for the FBI. They, they unload all of those names in the indictment and thus put a target on Smirnoff's back Yeah.
- [58:26]
C
I mean, we don't have all the evidence surrounding Mr. Smirnoff. Right. So it's very difficult for me to say, you know, did he do it? Did he not do it? You know, I can't say that. But, but David Weiss, focusing on that, you hedge. He was really using it to hedge all of the critique of his miscomings and his failures and his election interference and his obstruction. I mean, it's egregious. It's unbelievable.
- [58:55]
A
And Gary, you now are the boss, basically. You're the deputy head of criminal investigations at the irs. And Joe, you too, are on this special. You've been brought in by Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, both of you, to run the reforms of the IRS to ensure that such politicization doesn't happen again and also to make it more efficient and make investigations better. Gary, first, what is that like to be back, basically, boss of some of the people that retaliated against you? Are they still there? Has anyone apologized to you or have they all scurried away like little worms?
- [59:41]
C
No, no, no one's apologized to me. And it's fine. I'm not the type of person that's vindictive. Right. They know what they did, and one day they'll be judged for what they did. Right. You know, if I've taken no steps, I've let, no, I've, I've basically said that, that I'm too close to that and that anyone else can make the decisions on that. But moving forward, being the deputy chief of IRS criminal investigation is very important that we let the American people know that we're going to do everything the way that we should do it. We're investigators. We receive allegations. When we receive allegations, it's either developed by ourselves through data analytics, it's from, from our federal partners, is from U.S. attorneys offices or prosecutors, or sometimes our civil side of our agency sends us criminal referrals and we take those allegations and we put it through our process like we take initial steps like Joe did, looking at bank reports of some porn company. And that's how we work a case and that's how we're going to do it moving forward. And we're not going to give fear. We're not going to have fear. We're not going to have. We're not going to give favor. And that's what the agents, the 2200 working agents and IRS criminal investigation, I think, are energized. They're fantastic. Their services are being requested from the administration on the Homeland Security Task force. The Domestic terrorism platforms, the DC Safe and Beautiful, the returning law and order to Memphis. And, you know, we're really excited at IR's criminal investigation to, you know, to work with our partners in all these areas because we're valued and we bring something to the table that is very unique in our financial investigative experience. And we're going to do that for the American people and for Secretary Bessant and for CEO Frank Bisignano.
- [61:35]
A
I just had to laugh at this letter that a whole lot of Democrat senators sent to you warning you about the weaponization of the irs. And this was over the decision by President Trump to look into the funding of Antifa and these various violent left wing organizations. What was your feeling when these same. I mean, I've seen you testify in this case and have people like Dan Goldman, Democrats like Dan Goldman, the New York congressman, just make a fool of himself trying to catch you out as some sort of partisan stooge. But what did you make of that letter from those Democrat senators?
- [62:27]
C
You know, I didn't make much of it. I mean, the information that supported it was a leak from somewhere and it, you know, is just simply based in fiction. Right. So I wasn't too concerned about it. I'm going to continue to focus on doing my work, doing my job and keeping us moving forward. And we're going to continue to investigate criminals.
- [62:47]
B
Right.
- [62:48]
C
We're going to continue to arrest folks in Memphis and D.C. and we're going to continue to work for this administration and for the federal government to make it the best it can be. I mean, I can't worry about nonsense noise. We saw it when we brought the document and we brought our testimony, we brought documents to support it. And unfortunately, it was politicized by the left who just wanted to attack the facts, the evidence that we brought forward. And if they want to spend their time authoring letters, feel free to do so. I'm focused on my job.
- [63:25]
A
Joe, you launched, I think, a $20 million defamation action against Hunter Biden's lawyer, Abby Lowell. And, and you've had a very satisfactory resolution of that where he's admitted that you did everything by the book, that you followed the whistleblower law and that nothing that you revealed was personal information. So tell us about why you decided to sue, Abby. Lol. What he'd done and how you feel about the outcome.
- [64:00]
B
I guess because of the settlement. The only thing that I would want to opine on is that for Gary and I, this was never about money. This was about protecting the sanctity of being A whistleblower. When you become a whistleblower, everyone just tries to attack you, everyone tries to discredit you, everyone tries to throw everything at you that they can and they almost try to break you. There were moments throughout this process where I was very broken, couldn't get out of bed, suffered from very, very deep depression, didn't want to go into work, felt I wasn't valued at work. Meanwhile, we're getting in the media, we're getting hit with hit pieces about who we are, the information that we brought forward, and what I can tell you is that that in so coming forward and showing people that there is a way that you can resolve all this. And this is kind of like our final resolution. So all of our different things that we had going on, we're on the other side of it now. And I think that that is evident through this book, through getting this story out, through describing what happened to us. And I know that you haven't mentioned this yet, but Gary and I do not make a cent from this book. All the proceeds or the profits from the book go to Empower Oversight, who is a non profit group who provides legal support for current and future whistleblowers. So we're putting our names where it counts. We're putting. We need to. And that's why if anyone out there, that's why it's so important to read this book, don't give money towards this cause, because we need this story to get out there so that we don't have this happen to us once again. That is what everything we've done, that is our creed.
- [66:05]
A
You are really the definition of honest and courageous whistleblowers. I've known you now for a long time and you've always been incredibly, impeccably proper and right. You've never told me anything that you weren't authorized to tell me. And you've gone through, I know, both of you, a lot of pain and heartache you retaliated against. Would you do it again? Joe, you first.
- [66:36]
B
Hands down, I would do it again. Even though I've lost my marriage, I lost our home that we were in, I lost my dogs. Even after losing all of those to what had happened throughout this last three years, speaking the truth is one of the most important things. I need to sleep at night. I need to be okay with who I am as a person. When we put our badge on our hip as IRS special agents, we are making a pledge, like we belong to kind of a brotherhood, that when we see something that's wrong, we're going to say something that we're going to hold that badge as high as we can and be as honest and be the best that we could possibly be. And that, I think, is something that is so very important as government employees, as federal law enforcement officers. And I can tell you that Gary and I, every day we wake up, we, we stand true to those principles.
- [67:39]
A
And Gary, how about you? Would you do it again?
- [67:42]
C
Well, I hope I don't have to, Miranda but like, just that in this case is, it was something that, it wasn't a decision to come forward. It was, it was just something inside of me. It was, you know, I was just, I wouldn't have my inner self, wouldn't allowed me to, to not come forward. So, you know, we'll always try to work things out, just like we did here for a couple different years, trying to work through the process, trying to, you know, do what we can. But, you know, if it comes down to it, right, where there's no other choice, I mean, you know, I'll blow the whistle again. It's, I'll never be the same. I don't know how to describe it. I can't even, you know, there's moments of really, you know, good things that happen to us that, you know, we, I just emotionally mute because I'm just waiting for the next bad thing to happen. And, you know, and I get hit pieces on me still with just completely false information. And it's just, I just, I just, but that's not the point, right? Like, everyone is tested, and when you're tested, you either, you either, you know, you either fail or you achieve, right? So I look back on all this and I think that I was tested and, and I think that I did what was right. And, you know, if I'm tested again, I, I'll do the right thing each and every time.
- [68:56]
A
And. Last question, Gary, where does that moral compass come from?
- [69:01]
C
From God, from, from family, you know, from my love of my family. I don't, I don't, you, I, I don't think you can find anywhere what my, my, you know, my current family is, right? Like, I, I, I protect it because, you know, know it's, it's the only thing that I have. And, and Joe hears me every single day talking about, you know, my ins and outs and my trials and tribulations at home with, with, you know, teenagers and young ones and, you know, and, and, you know, it's, it's, it's, it just comes from that love and the love of the country. Right. Like, we. We live in the best country in the world. Like, at the same time, people are protesting things here. Right. Which is their right. And. And they should think the country that exists today for the right to protest. Because if you were doing that, other places, you know, you just get murdered, you just get mowed down. Right. So we live in the best country on earth. I have an amazing family and children and support structures.
- [70:00]
A
And. Joe, last word to you.
- [70:02]
C
Yeah.
- [70:03]
B
So I think it comes down to I was, again, I was brought up in a Christian family faith, believe in Jesus Christ as our savior. Those things still hold true to me to this day. Even as a gay man who. That's a different aspect to my life. Who I love is who I love. I still have faith in my creator. And that was something that. My dad died a couple years ago, and part of this book is dedicated to him. But that's something that him and my mom instilled in me, that being this honest, truthful person, and no matter the cost, you have to come out and be your true, authentic self. And I think that that has shown through with everything we've done thus far. And this book, what happened as a part of this case, in addition to what was going on in our personal lives, I can tell. I mean, I've heard from so many different people. It's a compelling read and I'm excited for everyone to hear the story.
- [71:08]
A
It is a wonderful book, and I would urge everyone to go out and read it. It's full of information, interesting information, and it's a really important historical chronicle of, I think, some of the worst corruption that has been exposed ever in the presidency. So thank you. Hats off to both of you. Thanks very much, Gary Shapley and Joe Ziegler.
- [71:30]
C
Thank you, Miranda.
- [71:31]
B
Thank you, Miranda.
- [71:33]
A
Thanks so much for watching. I'm Miranda Devine, and we'll be back with more. Let us know what you thought of this episode by leaving a comment below. And please make sure you hit the like and subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes of Pod Force One.