Pod Force One — Howard Lutnick on living next door to Epstein, surviving 9/11 & late-night calls with Trump

Host: Miranda Devine (New York Post columnist)
Guest: Howard Lutnick, Secretary of Commerce
Release Date: October 1, 2025

Overview

In this compelling episode, Miranda Devine sits with Howard Lutnick, the current Secretary of Commerce, celebrated Wall Street CEO, and 9/11 survivor. The candid conversation spans Lutnick’s uncomfortable encounter with Jeffrey Epstein as a neighbor, his unusual journey from Democratic donor to key Trump cabinet member, behind-the-scenes insights from Trump’s transition and tariffs, harrowing survival during 9/11, lessons in leadership and loss, and the values that drive him. The episode is rich with personal stories, political revelations, and memorable moments.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Living Next Door to Jeffrey Epstein (00:02–03:17)

• Epstein as a Neighbor:

  • Lutnick lived at number 11 East 71st; Epstein was at number 9.
  • Lutnick and his wife were invited over by Epstein shortly after moving in.
  • Lutnick describes an eerie tour where Epstein showcased a massage table in the center of a formal room, making suggestive comments.

• A Defining Encounter:

  • “He says, ‘And the right kind of massage.’ Now my wife is standing here. So she looks at me and I look at her and we say, I’m sorry, we have to go. And we left. And in the six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again.” — Howard Lutnick (02:10)
  • Lutnick explains he never associated with Epstein again and avoided any event where Epstein was present.

• Reflections on Others’ Involvement:

  • “So how come Bill Gates and all these other people could hang around him and not see what you saw?” — Miranda Devine (03:29)
  • Lutnick cynically suggests they participated, noting Epstein was a “greatest blackmailer ever” and suspects compromising videos were traded for Epstein’s lenient sentence.

2. Relationship with Donald Trump & Political Evolution (05:37–07:50)

• From Bipartisan Supporter to Trump’s Inner Circle:

  • Lutnick was a Hillary Clinton supporter due to her post-9/11 support but backed Trump post-election.
  • “I just don’t forget,” Lutnick says, crediting Clinton for directly helping after 9/11.
  • Lutnick details deepened involvement, including fundraising ($100 million+) and policy collaboration.

• Designing Tariff Policy & Transition Leadership:

  • Lutnick helped design Trump’s aggressive second-term tariff policy.
  • “We designed the tariff policy together. ... No one's ever gone this fast. No one's ever gone this big.” (08:16)

3. Transition Chair: Reforming Trump’s Team (09:08–16:21)

• Radical Revamp of Transition Process:

  • Lutnick led transition from August, learning from the bumpy 2016 experience.
  • He recruited “the top 150 Republicans” and created a high-tech, multi-screen candidate review process at Mar-a-Lago for cabinet selection.

• Decision-Making Style:

  • Trump preferred people who could “talk and sell the message of the government.”
  • “It was a key criteria that they could talk. Right, that they could present. ... Go sell the policy, go talk about the policy, make sure the people of America can understand what we're doing.” — Lutnick (16:00)

• Selection Philosophy:

  • Lutnick refused to champion favorites: “My job ... find the best candidates, set up the best candidates, and let President Trump ... let him pick who he wants, let him interview who he wants, and I would just support them and support the process.” (14:53)

4. Commerce Secretary Role & Trade Policy (19:52–21:33)

• Why Commerce, Not Treasury:

  • Lutnick focused on having tools to control tariffs, calling export controls and specific tariffs (e.g., auto, pharma, semiconductors) “durable, defensible,” and key to bringing jobs back.

• Historic EU Deal:

  • Lutnick describes negotiating a historic trade deal with the EU, involving 15 new tariffs and $750 billion energy investment.
  • Details Trump’s negotiating tactics—projecting American strength, using leverage, and playing “good cop, bad cop” with Lutnick setting the stage.

• Negotiation Dynamics:

  • “He does better. And it's such a joy for me to watch him do it because he is the best deal.” — Lutnick (24:12)
  • Recounted advising EU leaders on negotiating with Trump: “If you attack Donald Trump, it charges his batteries. ... If you go at Donald Trump, he’s going to win.” (29:05-29:10)

5. Trump’s Personality, Leadership, and Relationship Dynamics (31:28–37:16)

• Trump’s Depth and Drive:

  • Describes Trump’s obsessive attention to detail, from ballrooms to foreign policy.
  • “He cares about everything. ... And people just don’t understand that. ... In every trade deal, he does it. Not me. He does it.” — Lutnick (31:38-32:50)

• Friendship with Trump:

  • Lutnick and Trump talk frequently, often late-night. “When I call somebody else ... first thing I hear is the phone bouncing on the ground. ... Whereas I call you, you go, ‘What's up?’” — Trump, as quoted by Lutnick (36:04)
  • Share light moments (e.g., Trump’s jokes about plastic straws) and more.

• Social Insights:

  • Lutnick notes Trump’s humor is often misunderstood outside New York, as is his performative “showmanship.”

6. 9/11: Survival, Grief, and Rebuilding (41:01–54:35)

• September 11, 2001: Lutnick’s Story:

  • Lutnick was late to the World Trade Center taking his son to the first day of kindergarten.
  • He describes the confusion, rushing to the building, and the terror as the first tower collapsed.
  • “It was just the loudest smashing banging I ever heard in my life. ... An explosion of thunder.” (44:49)

• Personal Loss:

  • Lost 658 of 960 New York employees, including his brother and best friend.
  • Overwhelming daily grief, attending up to 24 funerals a day for over a month.
  • “I cried every day until October 21st, 2004.” (49:44)

• Leadership in Tragedy:

  • Lutnick decided alongside survivors to rebuild Cantor Fitzgerald, pledging 25% of payroll to families of lost colleagues.
  • “We gave them $180 million ... It came from the salaries of everybody.” (53:03)
  • In time, Lutnick awarded a third of company shares to employees who sacrificed.

7. Childhood, Loss, and Resilience (55:44–63:56)

• Early Family Tragedy:

  • Classic Long Island upbringing; both parents died of cancer by the time he was 18.
  • Left to care for himself, his sister, and younger brother. Recalls painful memories of selling the family home and belongings.

• Surviving Adversity:

  • “I knew what hell felt like. But I also know that you climb out of hell.” (62:17)
  • Lutnick credits his mother for teaching him that “every day is the joy of being alive.”

• Empathy and Connection:

  • As a 9/11 survivor, Lutnick gave his phone number to widows, staying up at night to talk: “...we'd talk for a half hour. I never hung up first. Never.” (63:04)

8. Battling Cancer (64:24–66:33)

• Facing His Own Diagnosis:
  • Lutnick was diagnosed with Non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, endured seven months of chemotherapy.
  • Openly communicated updates to employees and learned from his parents’ experiences: “Every day I made sure that I did something that made me smile.” (64:28)

9. Family and Raising Empathetic Children (66:35–70:20)

• Love and Parenting:

  • Met wife Allison on a classic blind date; married nearly 31 years, four children.
  • Emphasizes the value of showing vulnerability to his children: “My kids had a very unusual … upbringing where their strong, powerful dad cried every day.” (69:14)

• Empathy is Strength:

  • “My children have empathy. ... You don’t want to raise them the way I did because it was just sad.” (70:00)

10. Secrets of Success (70:36–71:11)

• On Success:
  • “Passion. If you deeply, deeply care, then you leave no stone unturned. ... It’s the intensity that passion brings.” — Howard Lutnick (70:36–71:11)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Epstein:
  “He gave me a gift of a voice ... a one and absolutely done.” (03:01)

• On building the transition:
  “I recruited eight people for each job. … Help Donald Trump build the best cabinet ever.” (09:53)

• On sadness:
  “I cried every day until October 21st, 2004.” (49:44)

• On leadership after tragedy:
  “We could try to rebuild the company, or we can go to the funerals of our friends, which will be every day.” (50:46)

• On resilience:
  “You climb out of hell. ... I could talk to the widows in a different way than everybody else.” (62:17–63:04)

• On empathy:
  “My kids had a very unusual upbringing where their strong, powerful dad cried every day.” (69:14)

• On passion and success:
  “If you deeply, deeply care, then you leave no stone unturned.” (70:36)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Epstein neighbor story: 00:02–03:17
• On Trump and political journey: 05:37–07:50
• Tariff design and transition leadership: 08:16–16:21
• Cabinet selection and process: 12:18–16:21
• Commerce Secretary & EU deal: 19:52–21:33; 21:33–30:06
• Trump’s personality and relationship: 31:28–37:16
• 9/11 firsthand account: 41:01–54:35
• Childhood tragedies: 55:44–63:03
• Cancer and attitude: 64:24–66:33
• Family & empathy: 66:35–70:20
• Secrets of success: 70:36–71:11

Episode Tone and Style

The conversation is open, direct, and emotionally resonant. Lutnick’s New York candor, deeply personal storytelling, and humor shine through, especially when recalling both gut-wrenching tragedy and offbeat moments with Trump. Devine’s probing questions bring out layers of both policy acumen and human vulnerability.

This summary encapsulates the major themes and content of a remarkable, wide-ranging interview, providing a clear, timestamped roadmap for listeners wanting to revisit or discover the key moments.