JD Vance: "I wept at Jesus’ Tomb"; Trump’s 2028 dream ticket with "best friend" Rubio; & UFO mysteries

Summary

Pod Force One — October 29, 2025
Guest: Vice President J.D. Vance
Host: Miranda Devine (New York Post)

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Brief Overview

In this in-depth and candid conversation, Vice President J.D. Vance welcomes Miranda Devine to his Washington home, discussing his personal and family life at the Naval Observatory, his faith journey and recent pilgrimage to Jerusalem, insights into the Trump administration’s policies (including immigration and foreign affairs), reflections on President Trump’s leadership, and a touch of speculation on both UFOs and the possibility of a 2028 Trump ticket. Vance offers both personal anecdotes and policy rationale, with a conversational tone that blends humor, candor, and sharp criticism—particularly of the Biden administration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life at the Vice Presidential Residence (00:20–07:41)

• Family and Home: Vance describes adapting to life in the Naval Observatory, making it home for his three young children and their dog Atlas. He notes the privacy compared to the White House and the effort to create a "normal" family environment.
• Atlas the Dog: Discussion about their German shepherd, Atlas, contrasts his well-trained, gentle demeanor with the infamous biting incidents from Biden’s dogs. Vance shares he invested months training Atlas before being tapped for Vice President.
• Dog as Character Judge: "If you mistreat dogs, that's almost percent sign that you're going to be a really terrible person. So that's...one of the ways we really sort of test people is if Atlas responds well to them, if they like Atlas, we know they're good people." (J.D. Vance, 06:43)

2. Spiritual Journey & Jerusalem Pilgrimage (08:23–15:21)

• Profound Experience at Church of the Holy Sepulchre:
  • Vance recounts the emotional intensity of visiting Jesus’ tomb, touching the stone of anointing, and being overcome with tears:

    "I start crying. There was something. I was like, completely overcome with emotion. And I didn't expect that." (J.D. Vance, 10:34)

  • He describes learning new historical details that confirmed for him the authenticity of the site.
• Mass with Franciscans: Vance participated in a private Mass at the Church with American priests, calling it a “very full Mass in this little chapel,” where the emotional weight of the place left a deep impression.
• Encounter with Pope Francis: Shares memories of meeting the late Pope shortly before his death, emphasizing Francis’ compassion for the poor and his surprise at the Pope’s passing only a day later.

3. Catholicism, Immigration, and the “Biden Border Crisis” (15:21–31:11)

• Catholic Social Teaching & Policy: Vance addresses the tension between Catholic perspectives on immigration and the practicalities of border control:

  "...all 8 billion people who are alive in this...planet are God's creatures. We have to owe them...dignity. Doesn't mean we should let them illegally immigrate into our country." (17:21)

• Critique of Biden Administration: Strong criticism of Biden’s immigration policies, linking them to increased crime and cartel power, and alleging they undermined American sovereignty and the social contract.
• Motivations for Democratic Immigration Policy: Vance suspects motives include changing voting demographics and distorting Congressional representation, but also acknowledges some may be well-meaning but misguided:

  "They would actually say, we want these new people to come in because we can't win the votes of the people who are already here, so we're going to import new voters to replace them." (J.D. Vance, 21:50)

4. Policy Impact: Migration, Social Programs, and Housing (24:32–29:44)

• Strain on Welfare and Housing: Cites statistics on illegal immigrants’ use of welfare and describes specific town-level examples (Springfield, Ohio) where mass migration changed housing dynamics and drove up rents.
• Cultural Impact: Discusses the challenge of assimilating large populations, saying Americans reasonably desire neighbors they share language and culture with—a topic Vance says was exacerbated by the Biden administration’s policy.

5. Deportation Efforts and Immigration Enforcement (29:44–31:11)

• Vance explains their ongoing program’s success removing approximately 2 million migrants in 8 months via deportations and “self-deportations.”
• Offers a metaphor: “the same way that you eat a very big sandwich, do it a bite at a time.”

6. Trump’s “Dream Ticket” for 2028 (31:11–33:37)

• Speculation on Succession: Trump has openly mused about a Vance–Rubio ticket. Vance reacts with humility, calls Rubio his best friend in the administration, and insists the focus should be on the job at hand.

7. Foreign Policy: Vice Presidential Role and Administration Dynamics (33:37–36:02)

• Foreign Engagement: Describes an active VP role—trusted by President Trump, sent to Jerusalem, tasked with major issues.
• Critique of Past VPs: Jokes about being envious of Kamala Harris’s inactivity but appreciates the significant responsibility President Trump gives him.

8. Ukraine, Russia, and War Diplomacy (35:47–42:23)

• The Zelensky Oval Office Clash: Vance discusses the infamous incident, framing it as an assertive reset that ultimately improved relations:

  “You come to the Oval Office…there's an expectation that you're going to show the Head of State, the President, United States, a little bit of respect…” (J.D. Vance, 37:24)

• Trump’s Approach: Focused on honest, non-cliché negotiations; has pushed Europe to take on more responsibility; sanctions are a key “stick”; ultimate goal is ending the conflict, not escalation.

9. Iran and Use of American Power (42:23–45:27)

• Bombing Iranian Nuclear Sites: Vance clarifies the administration’s targeted approach and rejects claims of “drifting into war,” saying Trump’s actions were precise and decisive, not escalation:

  “He wanted to do it while Iran's air defenses were down, because that's a risky mission…He saw an opportunity and he went to the Iranians and he said, dismantle this facility peacefully. They said no. And he said, okay, we're going to do it non peacefully.” (J.D. Vance, 44:04)

10. On “Isolationism” and Trump’s Instincts (45:27–47:03)

• Vance rejects the “isolationist” label but admits MAGA is “very skeptical of getting involved in foreign conflicts,” arguing this is wisdom drawn from the Iraq War and the unpredictability of war’s consequences.

11. Personal Insights on Trump (47:03–52:16)

• On his changing relationship with Trump, from “never-Trumper” to staunch supporter, attributing respect to Trump’s courage and ability to stand against negative societal forces.
• Trump’s Personality & Energy:

  “He is…the hardest working, most energetic person. …He really sleeps less and still has more energy than anybody that I know that's 40 years younger than he is.” (J.D. Vance, 51:47)

12. Parenting, Adversity, and Resilience (52:16–56:39)

• Vance reflects on his tough upbringing and how it shaped his worldview.
• Discusses efforts to instill gratitude and perspective in his own children, referencing conversations about stories like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
• Shares advice Clarence Thomas gave him about reframing adversity as a blessing.

13. UFOs & Speculation (57:00–58:47)

• Both Vance and Devine are self-described “UFO lunatics,” with Vance admitting to curiosity but not yet using his VP access to dig in:

  "I can't allow myself to become so busy that I spend the next three years and I don't get to the bottom of this." (J.D. Vance, 57:46)

• Vance muses on spiritual explanations, whether supernatural or extraterrestrial.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Jerusalem’s sacredness:

"I start crying. There was something. I was like, completely overcome with emotion. And I didn't expect that."
(J.D. Vance, 10:34)

On testing people by their compassion for animals:

"If you mistreat dogs, that's almost percent sign that you're going to be a really terrible person. ... You know, it's like the Jeffrey Dahmer thing."
(J.D. Vance, 06:43)

On Trump’s instincts:

"He just does. He automatically understands when somebody is trying to get one over on him. And that makes him such an effective leader..."
(J.D. Vance, 50:10)

On adversity and parenting:

“You can’t force adversity on your children, but you can try to give them a different perspective. …Clarence Thomas...once told me that...he used to be resentful about his childhood. And now he thinks it was his greatest blessing.”
(J.D. Vance, 55:17 & 56:11)

On UFOs:

"I wonder. I can't allow myself to become so busy that I spend the next three years and I don't get to the bottom of this. So I will get to the bottom of this..."
(J.D. Vance, 57:46)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:20 – Life at Naval Observatory, family, and Atlas the dog
• 08:23 – Jerusalem trip, Church of the Holy Sepulchre, spiritual reflections
• 15:21 – Catholic perspective, Biden, abortion, and immigration
• 24:32 – Social programs, welfare, and housing impact of migration
• 29:44 – Deportation efforts, “eating the sandwich a bite at a time”
• 31:11 – Trump’s 2028 “dream ticket” musings
• 33:37 – Dynamics of the VP job, foreign policy responsibilities
• 35:47 – Ukraine, Zelensky Oval Office clash
• 42:23 – On Iran, MAGA “isolationism,” Trump’s foreign policy
• 47:03 – Vance’s journey from “never Trumper” to Trump loyalist, Trump’s personality
• 52:16 – Parenting challenges, resilience, Clarence Thomas anecdote
• 57:00 – UFOs, spiritual vs. alien debate

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Final Notes

This episode offers a sweeping look at both the personal and professional facets of J.D. Vance—his spiritual life, family, and parenting approach, as well as front-line perspectives on immigration, foreign policy, and the Trump administration’s leadership style. Candid, at times humorous, and sharply critical, this conversation provides a clear sense of Vance’s worldview—and of the current mood and agenda in the upper reaches of the executive branch.

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Transcript

[Miranda Devine]

Welcome back to Pod Force One. I'm Miranda Devine and today we are with Vice President J.D. vance in his home in Washington at the Naval Observatory. Thank you, Vice President Vance, for joining Pod Force One.

[J.D. Vance]

Of course, thanks for being here and.

[Miranda Devine]

Especially thank you for inviting us into your home at the Naval Observatory, which I'm very interested in. My first time here because of course, when Joe Biden was vice, during the period in Hunter Biden's laptop, he had a lot of meetings for Hunter Biden's business partners in this building. Did you know about that?

[J.D. Vance]

No, I know. I had no idea that it had such an illustrious history. We have done no grifting thus far in the Vice President, so we're only in here for nine months so far. So maybe I'll take some ideas from under Biden and Joe Biden's business dealings. But no, I mean for us. We love this place, right? I joke that it's the world's nicest public housing, but it really is for us. It's a family home because we have, you know, you just met our dog a few minutes ago. We have three little kids, an eight year old, a five year old, a three year old. And so we try to make this, you know, their, their place. We still have our place in Cincinnati, but we don't, you know, if we're lucky, we'll be there one, one weekend a month. So we really tried to sort of make this a family home. And I mean, like for example, this morning my, my five year old brought me a pumpkin because they've been growing a pumpkin outside. Oh, lovely. And they've gotten in their big pumpkin patch. They've gotten one usable pumpkin. So he's very excited about this. We picked it in the last coup, so we're gonna roast it, try to make pumpkin pie. It's a beautiful place and it's really an amazing place. And the kids to raise a family, they do. I mean, the President jokes with me that it's actually nicer than his house because it's so private. Right. I mean, the White House is the White House and it's very beautiful. But if you think about it, we're on 40 acres or so of very private property. You don't quite live in the same fishbowl, which of course for kids is like the best thing possible because there are a lot of sacrifices for the kids and there are a lot of ways in which their life is different, but their home is still very much their home. And I feel like they can be kids here, which is what you want.

[Miranda Devine]

And they go to a local school.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, so our three. Yeah, three year old goes to preschool, but just a couple hours a day. And then our 5 year old started kindergarten this year and he really, really likes it. And he goes to school about 15 minutes from here. And then our third grader who's eight, he started a school this year or two. So they're all in new places, they all like them very much. It's a relatively short drive. But it's interesting how the different kids react to this life because your 8 year old is a bit of an introvert. He's more like his mom, maybe our five year old, everybody says he's more like me, he's a bit of an extrovert. So he like really enjoys the attention.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

And our 8 year old could really do without the attention. And it's funny just, you know kids, as much as you try to imagine that you can kind of shape them and form them and of course you can in some ways at some element their personality is very innate and you sort of see that. And it's one of the cool things about having kids is, you know, you could have seen some of these traits in the 8 year old when he was 12 months old.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes, right.

[J.D. Vance]

But it's, it's just, it's kind of amazing anyway.

[Miranda Devine]

And they're very nice, they're very different.

[J.D. Vance]

They'Re all very, very.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you mentioned your dog, Atlas, a German shepherd.

[J.D. Vance]

Yes.

[Miranda Devine]

Beautiful dog.

[J.D. Vance]

Thank you.

[Miranda Devine]

Very well behaved, very good boy. Is he likely to bite any Secret Service agents?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, it's funny. No, certainly not. And it has become a thing, you know, Secret Services, they're very good and they're very professional. So they never dish on, on anybody that they're, that they've protected. But they, many Secret Service agents have told us, we're so grateful you have a dog who doesn't bite us in particular, a German shepherd.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And it's funny, you could see especially early on they would sort of react very strongly. Exactly. Because they're only really. No, no, I mean it was a serious problem. Right. Because it was Commander, whoever else, whatever, Major in Commander. Major in Commander, I guess were pretty aggressive. Atlas is a very friendly dog and he's, I mean, I think in part just because of the way that he grew up. So we got Atlas when he was 8 or 9 weeks old. @ that time our kids were, I don't know, you know, 2, 4 and 7 or something like that. So his entire life he's basically Been handled by kids, and I think it's just made him very social. And he's very friendly.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, a German shepherd is a particular type of dog, isn't it?

[J.D. Vance]

Yes.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, they. They can be lethal weapons.

[J.D. Vance]

They can be, though. You know, he is. You can tell. I mean, if a stranger comes to the door, which usually isn't a real stranger, obviously, because you have to get through the secret service detail. But, you know, if somebody. He's not expecting to show up, he'll bark, and he'll definitely, you know, he'll be defensive. But he's also incredibly protective of the kids. The kids can crawl all over him. Never shows any aggression. It's really, like. It's amazing. He definitely has this category of, like, in the circle and out of the circle. And if you're in the circle, he's super friendly to you. If you're out of the circle, maybe he's not. But pretty much everybody here is in the circle. Right. Because he gets used to them and he knows who they are.

[Miranda Devine]

He was pretty polite to us.

[J.D. Vance]

He's very polite also if I'm here, like, if Mira around, he's always very friendly, sort of understands. All right. If mom or dad are around, he can kind of let his guard down.

[Miranda Devine]

Highly intelligent.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. I will say that the. Again, the one thing is, like, because we have people who work here, we have people who help us with all manner of keeping the house up. If he's here with, like, a babysitter and it's just him and the kids and a stranger who, somebody he doesn't know walks up, he will definitely bark his head off.

[Miranda Devine]

That's his job.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right. He's not a biter. At least so far. He's not a biter.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, the whole thing about Joe Biden, not to dwell on him, but, you know, to choose a German shepherd, you have to put a lot of effort into them, and they're very intelligent dogs, and he obviously hadn't done that. And you've been accused of having a rented dog for the image, But I feel like that's what Joe Biden did. Because he didn't control those dogs.

[J.D. Vance]

No, no. And we were. The first six months or so really matter. Right. And so we got Atlas. I mean, in hindsight, of course, I didn't know that our lives would change. We got Atlas in January of 2024. And so, of course, I got the nod in July of 2024. But really, for those six months, I mean, I kind of obsessively Trained him like, you could see this. He sits on command. He stays on command. He. Yeah, he has this command place, which is basically, if I snap my finger and point, he will run to that place and lay down.

[Miranda Devine]

You don't have to zap him.

[J.D. Vance]

No, no. Like a sond biker. No, no. Electrocution of dogs here.

[Miranda Devine]

How disgusting is that? What does that tell you about?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, I think it tells you that they're not. That they're bad people. If you can actually cause suffering to an innocent animal, you're probably the kind of person who doesn't worry about suffering in people as well. And that's been my experience. If you mistreat dogs, that's almost percent sign that you're going to be a really terrible person. So that's. That's. It's one of the ways, you know, we really sort of test people is if. If. If Atlas responds well to them, if they like Atlas, we know they're good people. But you can tell if somebody's really mean to animals. You know, it's like the Jeffrey Dahmer thing.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

Like every serial killer ever. Yeah. Has actually been really bad to animals. That's sort of how they started. I remember, like, the Freddy Krueger movies were really big when I was, you know, when I was a kid. Well, how did Freddy Krueger got a start? Like, one of the things they show is young Freddy Krueger torturing animals.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

I feel like we just sort of instinctively understand.

[Miranda Devine]

And dogs know.

[J.D. Vance]

Yes, absolutely. They do. If you're not taking care of God's creatures, then you're certainly going to be, I think, a pretty bad person otherwise, too.

[Miranda Devine]

How did Atlas react to President Trump when he came for dinner a couple of weeks ago?

[J.D. Vance]

We kept Atlas upstairs. So. So the thing about Atlas is he's a very sweet dog, but he's also very jumpy because he's, you know, he's still a puppy. He's not even two years old. Well, no. Yeah, he turns two years old on. Because he turned one on election day.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. Which again, people accused us of, like, oh, you just got a dog that happened to have a first birthday on election day. But. But he. So he'll turn two in November, and he's very sweet. But if a new person comes and that person, again, is, like, in the circle, then he will jump all over that person. I didn't want that to happen to the president in the first place. So. So we kept them upstairs with the kids.

[Miranda Devine]

And now you just came back from a trip to Jerusalem. And you posted a video of yourself at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and incredible experience. And you were there, you touched the tomb or the slab that Jesus Christ was placed on after his crucifixion. What was that like for you as a Catholic? As a converted Catholic, yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

So it was probably the single most amazing experience in my life really. And of course, you know, you're surrounded by all these security and you know, you walk in and it's. What's really cool about this, I think it's like a good symbol of Christian unity is that you have the Greek patriarch and you have the Armenian patriarch and then you have, you know, a representative of the Catholic Church because those three churches all have this like co ownership of this one church. And so that was really cool. And so I had been there before, but for maybe 15 minutes I was there, you know, when I was, it was actually before I was even a senator. I just wanted to see it as a tourist. As a tourist, a Christian. But, you know, it's like there are a million people around and I didn't really know what I was looking for. And there's what's called the stone of anointing, which is in the Gospels, Jesus Christ is laid down after he's crucified, after he's killed, but before he's placed in the tomb, which, or he ultimately rises from the dead. So I knew what that was, but I had.

[Miranda Devine]

That's what you were placing.

[J.D. Vance]

That was what I was placing my hand on. But okay, here, here's the thing that I just had no idea because I was a tourist and I was, you know, I had 15 minutes in between meetings and I was like, I got to see the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

So there is a little side chapel where you have to kind of go, go up steps to it. And you, if you've ever, you know, you read the Gospels, it talks about Golgotha. Well, there's like, you know, or Calvary, it's right there. And there's actually where the cross was. Where the cross was. And I had never seen that and I'd never been in there. And I'm not like a particular, I'm not a big crier, but there's, there's this weird thing. And I joked with a Greek patriarch who's such a sweet man. He kept on being worried that I would bump my head. And I was like, man, you know, you've, you're, you're, you're, you keep on worrying that I'm gonna bump my head. You should join the Secret Service here because you're protecting me more than. More than anybody in this. In this beautiful church. But, you know, so you kneel down and it's. It's a very short area, so you kind of have to almost crawl underneath, but then you can actually place your hand where the understanding of, like, where the cross would have been placed on Golgotha. And I start. And I start crying. There was something. I was like, completely overcome with emotion. And I didn't expect that. You know, you never know what to expect. But there was this moment of just complete silence. The cameras, you know, you're always surrounded by cameras. I don't think there were cameras, or maybe we had one photographer who was in there. But I just had this moment of feeling completely alone and the. The emotion of the place came over me and it was just incredible. And I got similarly emotional when I touched. You know, it's. It's the slab that is placed over the tomb.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

And I. And I learned things. I mean, just the history and the archeology of this place is amazing because, you know, one of the questions is like, is this really the place where Jesus Christ was crucified? And so I guess there were people who said, well, you know, the place where Christ was crucified would have had. Just because of where it was in Jerusalem, would have had, you know, grape and olive or grape vines and olive trees. And so they did an excavation, like, 10 years ago, and they found a bunch of historical grape and olive roots. And so just the more that we've learned about it, the more that it kind of confirms this is actually the place where Jesus Christ was. Was. Was crucified and rose from the dead. And to just be there, it was unbelievable. And then to talk to the people who. It's their job to take care of this place.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And, you know, the. The guy is. He's the custos is. Is his actual title, but he's a Franciscan monk who is the kind of the Catholic representative in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and he runs the monastery that' and he's an Italian guy, but he was just kind of explaining to me what it meant to him, and it was unbelievable. And then I. Not to belabor this point too much, but then the Franciscans and there were a couple of American priests who. Who actually. Who work in the Holy Land, and they did a private Mass for us. And that was there in that church. There in that church. Wow. And I actually, knowing I was going to go there. There's this. It's called the cmcc. It's not. It's the command center, effectively, of the President's peace mission in. In the Holy Land. And I invited all the Americans who were there. I said, they're going to do a private Mass for us. Just come up. And I didn't know if anybody would accept the invitation, but it was actually a very full Mass in this little chapel where this. This Franciscan monk did a. An incredible church service for us. And he said something at the very end. Again, I got so emotional so many times when I was there, but he just. During his homily, he said something very sweet to me and to Usha. And again, you just. You feel the power of that place. And if you believe, as I believe, you think that the greatest miracle in human history happened right at that very spot. It was unbelievable.

[Miranda Devine]

Wow. And I mean, as a. As a new Catholic, I guess since 2019, you've met two popes already.

[J.D. Vance]

I know, it's crazy.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, Pope Francis and then he keeled over a couple of days after.

[J.D. Vance]

He met poor Pope Francis. Yeah, no, it's. It's. When I met Pope Francis, he was very frail, but I didn't realize he was. He was that sick.

[Miranda Devine]

No.

[J.D. Vance]

And we had, you know, whenever I, you know, you go and you do these diplomatic missions, and there's. There's always some element of protocol and formality to it. But I. And I remember I talked to the. To the people who were sort of, you know, Pope Francis team. And I told my team, I was like, look, I understand he's got some health problems, like, we don't need to see Pope Francis. But they came back to us on the morning of Easter Sunday and said, the Pope is going to do the Mass. He's to do a public appearance. So he's got to, you know, sort of get out there anyway. He'd love to just, you know, shake your hand. And I was like, great. Absolutely. And so we went over there sort of at the last minute, probably spent 10 minutes with him. I mean, again, he was very frail. We actually still. And I could show this to you. I have one of my guys over here. Will, if you want to go to the pantry, there is, like, a chocolate egg. The Pope gave three of those to my kids. And we, you know, they're like chocolate eggs. And we ate two of them. But we've saved this one because. Because it was just very special. Of course, he. He passed away not even 24 hours later. He did his Easter, his Easter church service with the pilgrims in Vatican Square. And then, and then he died. And, you know, I obviously didn't know him well. I thought that he had this really good heart, this focus on the poor, this focus on the downtrodden. And I try to remember that and I try to follow that example rather.

[Miranda Devine]

Than the, the open borders.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, yeah.

[Miranda Devine]

You know, just coming back to Joe Biden because, you know, Joe Biden everyone talked about as a devout Catholic, you know, cradle to great born Catholic, Irish Catholic, and as I am, but he was very pro abortion when it was convenient to him. And I wondered, and I wonder if you got any sense of this, that whether his sort of open borders philosophy in his presidency was born of a sort of a quid pro quo with the Pope. He said he always talked to the Pope on the phone and that, you know, he got a, he got a leave pass for being pro abortion, which he had to do to become president for the Democrats. But, but as a quid pro quo, he opened the borders to. Which is what Pope Francis wanted everyone to do.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, you know, quid pro quo. I don't know, I would say, certainly hope that the, the Pope would never do something like that because Biden was particularly egregious on the abortion issue.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

You know, I was growing up, Democrats would say we want abortion to be safe, legal and rare. Biden was like the most extreme possible on the abortion issue. I mean, it was taxpayer funded abortion up to the moment of birth, absolutely no limits.

[Miranda Devine]

And he, it wasn't like other people were putting that into his mouth.

[J.D. Vance]

That was what he actually said and appeared to have actually made believed. And that's so fundamentally inconsistent with Catholic teaching that I really do think that, you know, and I will say to their great credit, a lot of the American bishops did push back very firmly against the radical pro abortion policy, the Biden administration during that time. Yeah, but, but yeah, I mean, look, the Vatican, especially under Pope Francis, had a particular line on immigration. And if I was, you know, I try to interpret this stuff charitably because, you know, partially because I'm a new Catholic, but partially just because I try to sort of stay in my lane. I'm the Vice President of the United States and you know, the Pope is the Pope. What I try to interpret charitably is I think the Catholic Church recognizes we have to have border control. We have to have the ability to control the borders of our own country. That's very clearly written in Catholic teaching, is that nations are allowed sovereignty. They're allowed to control their own borders. However, it's always useful to remind ourselves that a lot of the people who have come into our country, they're struggling in some way. They're human beings. And even though we have to engage in immigration enforcement, I try to remind myself, consistent with church teaching, that yes, doesn't mean we can let these people stay in our country, but I do have a responsibility to try to remember their humanity. And that's sort of my charitable interpretation is, yes, you can have your border policy, yes, you can enforce your borders. You also have to try to remind that all 8 billion people who are alive in this, in this, on this planet are God's creatures. We have to owe them a certain respect and a certain dignity. Doesn't mean we should let them illegally immigrate into our country.

[Miranda Devine]

Not really.

[J.D. Vance]

And that's, that's how I balance.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, not really their fault if Joe Biden's laid out the welcome map.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, yeah, and there are some particularly troubling. Again, I'm not saying this means we should let them stay in our country because I very affirmatively believe that we shouldn't. Let me take like one example of this that's really hard. That actually a priest friend of mine raised with me, he does a lot of ministry for both law enforcement officers, but also criminals. And so he sort of sees this from both sides and he said, here's an example of a person. And again, not saying this person should stay in our country, but let's say Joe Biden waved the magic asylum wand or waved the parole wand. So the President of the United States let you come into the state country and I'm not angry at that person who came into our country. I'm mad at Joe Biden and I'm mad at the Democratic Party for waving that person into our country in the first place, which of course encouraged other people to come into the country. Now I would say, and this is something that I really wish that all Christians took more seriously is that when you. Yes, we have to show dignity to people whether they're in our country legally or illegally. But when you encourage illegal immigration at the scale that Joe Biden did, you empower the cartels, you empower these people who are raping and murdering and selling 12 year old girls into sex slavery.

[Miranda Devine]

C section little girls. That Diablo woman.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly.

[Miranda Devine]

Evil.

[J.D. Vance]

Really, really evil stuff. And so the Biden border crisis, I think it's too easy to say, well, you know, there's a balance between immigration enforcement and treating people like humans. Of course that's true. However, sometimes the open border encouraged the very worst and most violent criminals. It encouraged people to prey on innocent young girls. If we're gonna talk about the human dignity of the migrant, we've gotta talk about that, too. And in some ways, the best thing that we can do to protect the human dignity of the migrant, but certainly of the American citizens that I have a certain responsibility to protect, is to stop the border crisis, which, thanks to President Trump's leadership, that's exactly what we've done. AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI [e-mail] that's R U B R I K.com hi guys, Nancy Grace here.

[Miranda Devine]

Do you ever hear or read a headline and wonder what happened? We go to the scene, track down leaves to help us understand why we want justice. Please join us. Listen to Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Monday through Friday on the iHeartRadio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Why do you think Joe Biden and the Democrats. I mean, I've got that theory about Joe Biden sort of trying to save his soul, but why do you think the Democrats did this? Was it really just to juice up the census or get more voters?

[J.D. Vance]

I think it's complicated. I try to understand everybody's perspective, even when I disagree with them strongly. I think the most obvious thing is that it completely distorts the democratic process in this country. When you let in millions upon millions of people, some of them will eventually get the ability to vote. It certainly distorts the congressional maps. And so I do think that they were using immigration to seize control illegitimately of the institution of this country. Some of them would say that openly, by the way. They would actually say, we want these new people to come in because we can't win the votes of the people who are already here, so we're going to import new voters to replace them. I think it's really a disgusting way to think about immigration. But some of them said that. Now, if I'm being a little bit more charitable, I think that was certainly going on. I also think that there is this distorted humanitarian thing going on where any enforcement, any law enforcement, period, these people have convinced themselves as somehow unchristian or immoral. I think that's the wrong attitude to take, because when you don't enforce the, the law against the people who violate the law, you empower the sex traffickers, empower the murderers, and you empower the drug dealers. And so. And you bankrupt many and you bankrupt, absolutely, you bankrupt the country. And so I think some people were motivated by a distorted humanitarian impulse. I think a lot of people just wanted to import voters. But regardless of the answer, I think the only thing that is both consistent from a humanitarian perspective, that is actually consistent with the duty that we owe to the American people and also is just good for the country is to do what President Trump has done, which is close the border and to ensure that anybody who comes into the country has to come through the legal pathway that we've agreed on. There's another thing that's going on, Miranda, that I think Democrats really underappreciated how bad it was for the country. You know, okay, our immigration policy is set in theory by Democratic policy. You vote for congressmen and women, they enact the immigration policy. The President, United States enforces that immigration policy. When you have millions upon millions of people coming into this country illegally, it violates the fundamental social contract that the American people get to make our immigration law, not a lawless American president completely disregarding that law. And that's what happened is a lot of Americans looked at our border and said, wait a second, they are actually violating the law to let people come in, which drives up the cost of housing, actually has a lot of people competing for Americans or competing against Americans for American jobs. And you do it in this fundamentally illegitimate way, because if Joe Biden stood before the American people and said, I'd like to let 5 million low wage immigrants into this country every single year, the American people would say no. But he didn't ask the American people. He just did it without asking permission. I think that's illegal. But I also think it was. Delegitimizes the entire immigration system in this country.

[Miranda Devine]

But remember in the Democratic primaries when all the candidates, including Joe Biden, were standing up on stage and they all were asked a question about would you give illegal migrants free health care? And they all put the hand up, said, of course, like it's a, it's a just a, an article of faith in the Democratic Party.

[J.D. Vance]

It's completely an article of faith. And think about how bizarre that is, right? These programs exist as part of the social contract for United States citizens. You pay into this system and if you need it, if you get down on your luck or you get to the point where you can't afford certain benefits, then you are able to take out of this system. That's the exchange that we have with our fellow citizens, in particular with our old age health insurance program. It is that you pay into the system your entire life. And when you get to the point where you're retired, you get access to high quality healthcare. Right? That's the whole idea. If you're going to give Medicaid and Medicare benefits to illegal aliens, you completely destroy that system, you bankrupt it and you make it so that Americans themselves are not able to access that system. I saw a chart, it was maybe yesterday or the day before Marin. It asked what share of illegal alien households compared to native born American households are accessing welfare. And the answer was native born American households at something like 30% for illegal alien households at 60%. Now what Democrats and their allies in the media will say, no, no, no, no, that's not how it works. Because it says in the law that illegal aliens are not allowed to access welfare benefits. But there are innumerable exceptions to this rule. For example, the state of California under Gavin Newsom gives Medicaid benefits to illegal aliens, the housing benefits, while they're not supposed to go to illegal aliens. There's a lot of fraud. And then on top of the fraud you have, if an illegal alien comes in and has a baby, then that baby can then access housing benefits through the parents, even though the parents are illegal aliens themselves. So there are all of these ways in which people are able to game the system. And it's why 60% of illegal alien households are benefiting from all welfare programs. That's how you bankrupt this country and destroy those programs for the people who actually need it.

[Miranda Devine]

And that's how they can afford to take slave labor wages.

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly.

[Miranda Devine]

Because they're subsidized. The tax subsidizing.

[J.D. Vance]

Such an important point, Miranda. And it's something people don't and appreciate. And by the way, they're willing to accept a standard of living that most Americans won't accept and shouldn't have to accept. And this was, if you remember, the big controversy about all of the migrants who came into Haiti, you know, 20,000 immigrants, Haitian migrants in a town of 40,000 people. So you blink your eyes in Springfield, Ohio, and you wake up and literally a third of the population of your town is now Haitian immigrants and eating cats and.

[Miranda Devine]

And dogs.

[J.D. Vance]

Eating cats and dogs. Now Biden paroled those immigrants. And what did that mean? Those immigrants were now able, even if they didn't have kids, all of them were able to access housing benefits. So I would talk to constituents in Springfield, Ohio. This is when I was, I was still a senator. This was before I was the vice presidential nominee. And here's the situation they would describe to me that happened in Springfield, Ohio. So you're a landlord and you're renting, let's say, a three bedroom house to a family of four. Family of five. Five. Okay. They're paying, let's say, $1,000 a month a couple of years ago in Springfield, Ohio to rent that house. Now all of a sudden, four families of Haitian migrants come in, each of them getting $1,000 per family, and they're willing to put 20 people into a three bedroom house. So what does that do? That prices all of the American citizens out of those houses. That drives up the rents for everybody. Because now you have a three, three bedroom house that you can rent for $4,000 a month or $3,000 a month instead of $1,000 a month. That completely destroys the ability of Americans to live the American dream. And that's what those open borders did.

[Miranda Devine]

It creates division and hatred.

[J.D. Vance]

Of course it does. But how could it not create division? I mean, let's say you're living in a house and your neighbors move out. We can hear Atlas shaking outside. He must have just come in from outside. But you have, let's say, a family of five that you've known for five years, 10 years, moves out of the house, is actually evicted from the house because there are people who are going to pay more for rent. And then what happens is 20 people move into a three bedroom house. 20 people from a totally different culture, totally different ways of interacting. Again, we can respect their dignity while also being angry at the Biden administration for letting that situation happen and recognizing that they're next door neighbors are going to say, well, wait a second, what is going on here? I don't know these people, they don't speak the same language that I do. And because there are 20 in the house next door, it's a little bit rowdier than it was when there was just a family of four. A family of five. It is totally reasonable and acceptable for American citizens to look at their next door neighbors and say, I want to live next to people who I have something in common with. I don't want to live next to for families of strangers. And the fact that we had an immigration system that actually promoted that division is a real, real disgrace of the Biden administration.

[Miranda Devine]

And are you going to be able to remove all of those illegal Migrants that came in during the Biden administration, we're trying to.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, we're trying to remove as many as we possibly can. So I haven't seen the numbers in the past couple of weeks, but as of about a month ago, the net number of migrants in our country had gone down by about 2 million. And that was a combination of deportations and what we call self deportations, because, you know, we're kind of putting it out there and saying, look, you are in the country illegally. We invite you, and in some ways, we'll even incentivize you to go back home and to actually, if you want to come to the United States, to come through legal channels and not to come into the country illegally. So we've got 2 million fewer than there were at the start of the term. That's about eight months in. And again, that's a great credit to the president and the entire team, but there's a lot to go. We're just going to keep on working at it, and we're going to try to chip away at that as much as possible. I remember during the campaign, Miranda, people would ask me, how do you possibly deport 10 million people? How do you possibly deport 18 million people? And I say, the same way that you eat a very big sandwich, do it a bite at a time. And right now, we've taken about 2 million out of the country. We're going to keep on working at it. It's going to be much, much higher by the end of the president's administration. I think that how much higher is just a function of how much we put the pedal to the metal, and that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to do everything that we possibly can to actually correct the problem of the Biden border invasion.

[Miranda Devine]

Now, President Trump's been saying quite often about the dream ticket that he's got now for his succession, which is you and the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio.

[J.D. Vance]

He said that privately. Did her a couple of weeks ago. And I was like, I wonder how long it's going to take for him to say it publicly. He's been saying it ever since.

[Miranda Devine]

So how do you feel about that? And have you talked to the Secretary Rubio about it?

[J.D. Vance]

I've joked with the secretary about it. So the president first raised this with me probably six months or so ago.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

During just, you know, one of our private lunches that we try to get lunch every couple of weeks just to catch up on what's going on and. And talk about things he mentioned it probably six months or so ago. And I mentioned to the secretary in jest, but it feels so premature because we're still so early. And what I always say to people is, if we take care of business, the politics will take care of itself. And we're nine months into this thing. We've done a lot of good. There's a lot more work to do because, I mean, look, the thing that I most worry about is that Biden left us a terrible affordability crisis. We've got to make life more affordable for American citizens. Again. We've chipped away at that problem, but there's a lot more work to do there. So my attitude is, the American people elected me to be vice president. I'm going to work as hard as I can to make the president successful over the next three years and three months. And if we get to a point where something else is in the offer, let's handle it then. But let's at least get through the next couple of years and do good work for the American people. Before we talk about politics, the president.

[Miranda Devine]

Doesn'T mention who will be running for president and who Vice president. Now, everyone assumes it would be you, but Marco Rubio is 13 years older. He's run for president before. Would there be any tension there?

[J.D. Vance]

First of all, no, there's not going to be any tension. Marco is my best friend in the administration. He and I work a lot together, and we really do. I think a lot of the good work that we've been able to do as an administration is because we're all able to work together. And again, this is why I say worrying too much about the politics, actually, I think makes you worse at the job that you have. I never want to wake up. And so far, I've never woken up and thought to myself, how do I make myself president, United States? What I wake up and think to myself is, how do I do a good job as vice president? And I think Marco Rubio asked himself, how do I do a good job as secretary of State? And that should be the question that each of us keeps on asking ourselves.

[Miranda Devine]

So what does a vice president actually do? Because we know Kamala Harris did nothing. Joe Biden traveled around the world.

[J.D. Vance]

Sometimes I'm envious of Kamala Harris.

[Miranda Devine]

Joe Biden grifted. We know. So, I mean, you seem to have a lot of different hats that you wear.

[J.D. Vance]

What?

[Miranda Devine]

So there's a lot of foreign policy.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. I mean, well, part of it is the job is very dependent on the president. United States. Right. And so if you have the trust of the President and he actually gives you a lot to do, then there's a whole lot to do. And that's how I found the job so far, is that there's nothing where I've wanted to get involved in where the President has said no. And a lot of times, if there's something important the President cares about, he'll call me. Or if I'm in the room, he'll say, jd, you know, you take care of this. You make sure that this gets done. And that's how I found myself in Jerusalem about a week ago. Is the president wanted me to go and check on the progress of what was happening. I mean, look, it's crazy. Peace in the Middle East. The President of the United States achieved peace in the Middle East. He got the 20 hostages home, and he wanted me to go and make sure things were going well. And they are, and they were.

[Miranda Devine]

But then in the Knesset, they had that. Which I think you took personally, had that vote like a stunt to say, let's go and colonize the West Bank.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah. Which, I mean, the reason. Part of the reason I call it a stunt is because the Israeli government itself didn't want the vote to happen. It was actually the opposition to the Israeli government be the equivalent of the Democrats trying to do something to the President to embarrass him. But, you know, I took offense to it because it's like, why embarrass your political opponents while the Vice President of the United States is in your country? It just seemed ridiculous to me. But to answer your question, I mean, I think the reason why I've been able to do a lot is because the President trusts me and he's empowered me with a lot of responsibilities and it's made the job a lot of fun. I mean, as much as I joke about, yeah, I kind of wish that I could sleep until 1 o', clock, take a couple of phone calls and then hit the bottle after that. Which is, I think, was the approach to being vice president. It would be really boring. And we have a lot of fun. We do a lot of good work because the President trusts me.

[Miranda Devine]

So let's talk about Ukraine. There was the famous Oval Office meeting in which you got Zelensky to slow his top. Was that. Was that sort of strategized with you in the present? I mean, he knows not at all your views?

[J.D. Vance]

Not at all, no.

[Miranda Devine]

So. So take us back to that moment. Like, did you think he was. Zelensky was going to blow up the way he Did. Because he was so rude.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, that was. That was what bothered me about it. And again, I'll say this, that was six months ago. We have turned over a new leaf. We're trying to. We're trying to have. Exactly.

[Miranda Devine]

He's wearing suits.

[J.D. Vance]

Yes, he is. We're trying to have productive relationships with both the Ukrainians and the Russians because we want to end this conflict. And I think the President has a very good working relationship. So do I. With. With all the parties involved. But, I mean, if you go back to that moment, I was getting frustrated because I perceived some rudeness, and I actually, you know, if you remember the way it happened, it's been a little while, so I don't remember the exact thing, but you can roll the tape. It's probably the most famous thing I've ever done or maybe ever will do. I watched it probably 10 times, but there was a reporter who asked a question, and I think the President answered it. And then I answered it, too, and then Zelensky didn't like my answer. And that's kind of what started the tit for tat. And then, of course, it just completely went off the rails after that. And look, I think the takeaway from that for me, but also I think for any foreign leader who comes to the Oval Office, in particular, like when you're meeting, you know, a couple hours ago, the President was sitting down with the Prime Minister of Japan. It's one thing when the President goes to the Prime Minister of Japan, it's another thing when the Prime Minister of Japan comes to the Oval Office. Right. And you try to basically respect the rules of the House that you're in. And if you come to the Oval Office, you come to the People's White House in the United States of America, there's an expectation that you're going to show the Head of state, the President, United States, a little bit of respect if you're going to disagree, which, of course, everybody should feel free to disagree. It's why we have these conversations, is to flesh out disagreements and try to identify common interest. You can do it in a particularly productive way, or you can do it in an unproductive way.

[Miranda Devine]

Do you think it served its purpose, though? Because it actually, as you say, President Zelensky has behaved in a much more respectful manner since. And was that a necessary kind of reset from the Joe Biden times, which was whatever Ukraine wants, we just give it to them?

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I think so. I actually think airing everything out, doing it in public, actually articulating where there were Disagreements and where there were common interests actually was pretty productive. And I do think that now the relationship is much more productive. And one of the things that we've tried to do, I mean, in particular, one of the things the president has tried to do is every time he talks to the Russians or the Ukrainian, it is not slogans, it's not cliches, it's what do you actually think about this? Where are the areas of disagreement? And as frustrating as it has been, the President has said this repeatedly. He thought this was gonna be the easiest war to get wrapped up. It's actually been the hardest war to get wrapped up. The reason that we've made progress is because the President has been laser focused on what is it that you actually think. And if you compare that to when Zelenskyy would come to town during the Biden administration and everybody would wave the flag and everybody would talk about how great everything was, there was not any real diplomacy that happened. And under President Trump's leadership, it's been much different.

[Miranda Devine]

Are you surprised that the Russians are being so intransigent? I mean, they were given, you know, the opportunity. I think what President Trump is now saying is just freeze the lines, have a ceasefire, but they're refusing to do that. And, you know, I mean, President Trump's under a lot of pressure to give Ukraine Tomahawks. He sort of contemplated it. He doesn't like the idea that that's taking us a step back forward towards. He said, World War iii.

[J.D. Vance]

Sure.

[Miranda Devine]

So where are we at?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, one. You understand that the president asks himself the question, what is in America's best interest? And his view is America getting more involved in the conflict is not in our interest. America bringing the conflict to a close is in our interest. And so everything that he's done, from the sanctions that he's done on Russian oil companies to the conversations he's had with Zelensky, to actually shifting more of the burden to the Europeans. And I think one of the things that I was frustrated with under the Biden administration, I think a lot of Americans, even Americans who are very pro supporting Ukraine, sort of threw up their hands and said, why aren't the Europeans doing more? The President. United States has shifted a lot of that burden onto the Europeans, which I think most Americans think is a really good idea. But it's all motivated by the question of what is in America's best interest. And I think the president continues to be laser focused on bringing the conflict. Conflict to a close. That's what he's most that's what he thinks is in our interest. That's what he's going to keep on working on.

[Miranda Devine]

So sanctions is better.

[J.D. Vance]

And sometimes that's going to mean carrots, and sometimes that's going to mean sticks. And we're just going to have to keep working at it. And there's a give and take to this. As we've talked about, Miranda before, sometimes it feels like we're making progress with the Russians, and sometimes it feels like we're making progress with the Ukrainians, and sometimes it feels like we're making progress with one or the other, but neither. And that's why you see the President constantly pushing, exercising American leverage, and we're just going to keep on working at it. I can't say where exactly it's going to go, but it's going to end eventually.

[Miranda Devine]

So you can't predict what would be your prediction. How do you think it will end? Will it end just frozen in place? Will they just keep fighting?

[J.D. Vance]

I just, it's so hard to say, Miranda. And every time that I've made a prediction privately, something that has happened, a month later, I mean, there was a part where, you know, if you asked me six months or so ago, I would have said they're never going to stop fighting. This is going to be like Russia's Vietnam. It's going to be. They're going to be constantly, constantly. Fifteen years later, they're still going to be fighting. If you ask me, you know, a month ago I would have said we're making incredible progress. So it's hard to venture a prediction. But I do think that we have reached the point of diminishing returns for both sides. The amount of territory the Russians are gaining is so small, and they're losing a lot of people in the process. The Ukrainians, I mean, their electricity infrastructure and a lot of. They're suffering from a lot of problems, of course, a lot of war dead themselves. We really do believe we reached the point where it's in both Russia and Ukraine's interest to stop fighting. But look, the president can only open the door. He can't actually force either side to walk through it.

[Miranda Devine]

When it came to, I mean, I guess what I'm trying to ask you now is about your relationship with Donald Trump, and is there any time that you disagree with him? You know, like Iran, the bombing of the Iranian nuclear facilities would be one that I think there were a lot of people who were in the sort of maga, people like Tucker Carlson were very antagonistic to that because they saw it as dragging us into Israel's war or into World War iii.

[J.D. Vance]

Sure.

[Miranda Devine]

What was your view going into that? And did you try and advise the President not to bomb?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, let me say two things. First of all, privately, of course, you have disagreements, but I think it's really important for the President to be able to rely on my advice and for me to support his agenda once he's made a decision. That's kind of my attitude as I have two real responsibilities here. On the one hand, I've got to give the President honest counsel. He expects it from me. I owe it to him. But the President's gonna make a decision. And when the President makes a decision, he's in charge of the government. And my attitude is I salute, I say, aye, aye, sir, and I go and execute. And both of those things really matter now with the Iran thing in particular, because it's passed and it's easy to talk about it, I think that there was a real fear from some people that any action towards Iran would lead to some sort of escalation spiral that would lead us having ground troops in Iran. And, you know, were you worried about that? No, I wasn't worried about that because I saw the decisions the President was actually making. I can understand if you're on the outside looking in, you don't understand what the President's actually saying. You don't want to understand what the President actually thinks.

[Miranda Devine]

A surgical strike.

[J.D. Vance]

But he wanted to eliminate, particularly the Fort Doe nuclear facility that only we have the ability to do. He wanted to do it while Iran's air defenses were down, because that's a risky mission, even with B2s if they have robust air defenses. And he saw an opportunity and he went to the Iranians and he said, dismantle this facility peacefully. They said, no. And he said, okay, we're going to do it non peacefully. And because I knew that he was surgically focused on that particular issue and he was not interested in putting 100,000 troops in Iran, I felt quite confident that we could do the President's mission, that we can accomplish America's goals. And I think it was a very good thing for the United States of America, but we would not get dragged into this protracted Middle Eastern conflict. Now, to be clear, I worry about that all the time. I worry about us getting drawn into these protracted conflicts. But I was. I was in Iraq, but I was not worried about it there because I saw the decision making process the President was engaged in. Of course, I offered my counsel as it, as it was Necessary. But a lot of the criticisms levied against the President in the heat of the moment, I remember it, I remember that very well. I don't think that they were fully aware of how the President himself was thinking about it. And again, that's politics. Right? You're not going to have access to every classified piece of information when you're a journalist seeing this from the outside in from the inside. I think the President handled that perfectly and it was very good for the country.

[Miranda Devine]

And there's a streak of isolationism in MAGA and that criticized a lot by, I guess, the neocons section of the Republican Party and the Democrat Party that are aligned. Do you see yourself as an isolationist?

[J.D. Vance]

No, not at all. I don't think the President's an isolationist and I don't think that most people in MAGA are isolationists. What I do think that they are is that they are very skeptical of getting involved in foreign conflicts. Because for pretty much my entire life, a lot of times we get involved in a foreign conflict and it's a total disaster. I mean, you go back to the 2016 primaries and who was the one guy on stage saying it was a disaster for us to be involved in Iraq? That was Donald Trump. Not because Donald Trump's an isolationist, not because he would never use American military power as we've seen in the administration. Clearly he will. But because I think he recognizes that. And I've heard them say this so many times, when you go to war, you never know what's going to happen.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

You know, he talks about this with Putin. Putin thought that was going to be a one week war, easy over. He accomplishes objectives. Now four years later, he's losing thousands upon thousands of Russian soldiers every single month. The President is very skeptical of war because he knows that it's unpredictable. But being skeptical of war, I think is the exact right approach. Saying that you can never use military force. I think that's the wrong approach. It takes it too far. You've got to kind of be in the middle somewhere. And I think that's where the President's foreign policy. He's both skeptical of foreign entanglements, but he's not afraid to use American military power when he has to. And again, I'm biased. I'm the Vice President, United States. I think that's exactly where we should be.

[Miranda Devine]

I wanted to ask you about Hillbilly Elegy, your bestselling autobiography. And I guess the thing that put you on the map at the time, it was mid 2016 when it came out and you were called yourself a heavy, never Trumper. Very negative. You've addressed this, but is there, so I don't want to dwell on that, but is there something about Donald Trump, since you've been his vice president, that surprises you, that you've like, he is such a unique person.

[J.D. Vance]

Unbelievably, people have no idea. Yeah. Yes.

[Miranda Devine]

So what, what makes him tick?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, it's interesting. Yes. Since becoming vice president, obviously, you know, I knew him quite well. I mean, he endorsed me in my 2022 Senate race. I had gotten to know him quite well and I became one of his big surrogates in 2023 and 2024. I think I was the first senator actually to endorse him back in the, in the primary race in 2022. Maybe it was early 23.

[Miranda Devine]

Why did you, was that self interest or did you see something in him?

[J.D. Vance]

No, I just, I really thought that he had shown an ability to stand up to the worst forces in American society with more courage and more grit than anybody else. That. And I also, I mean, actually, it's funny, his foreign policy. I wrote an op ed in the Wall Street Journal endorsing him because I was like, this is a guy who has a robust view of what American military power can accomplish, but also kept us out of any stupid foreign conflicts beyond that really mattered for me, what have I learned about him since becoming vice president? Let me say a few things. Things. First of all, he has a very good heart. And you know, when he came, he and the first lady came for dinner a couple of weeks ago. I mean, you know, the kids were upstairs with a babysitter, but they really wanted to see the President, the First lady, so we brought him down. And you never know what to expect. An eight year old, a five year old, a three year old. Like kids misbehave and they were, they were pretty well behaved, but they were kids, right? They were jumping around, they were rambunctious, they were saying totally weird shit. And he was just so good with them.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And he is, I think it has a natural grandfatherly way, especially with kids. He really loves kids and they really loved him in return. And it's interesting because he's gotten to know our kids a lot. They're always in the White House and he's just, he's. I've never once felt like he's impatient or he just wants them out of there. He always just has a really good heart about, about, about little kids. And I think that's, that's something I didn't appreciate about him. He has a way about him. He has a way about him where people are naturally, I think, attracted to him, his magnetic personality. And kids in particular are very attracted to him. You know, I think he has. A friend of mine once said that he has animal instincts. And I was like, what do you mean by that? And he said, well, like a lion in the savannah, you have to have almost a sixth sense about what's going on behind it. You have to be able to see things that you can't actually see with your eyes. And that is absolutely true about Donald Trump. He has unbelievable instincts. And sometimes I remember having this conversation with Susie Wiles where there was a particular issue and you had everybody trying to work the president. They were calling him, they were trying to influence him, they were trying to pressure him. And I was like, I gotta get in there and talk to the President because I don't think he realizes these people are trying to work him. And Susie looks at me and she says, Mr. Vice President, you don't think that Donald Trump realizes that these people are trying to work him? And he just does. He automatically understands when somebody is trying to get one over on him. And that makes him such an effective leader because you can't be everywhere once as President of the United States. But so long as you know who to trust and who not to trust, and so long as you have a way of navigating around the various pieces of counsel that you're getting, that's what makes him a great president, is that instinctive ability to know when somebody has the country's interests at heart or when they have some other interest at heart. I think that's an amazing thing. And the third thing that I'd say about him, I mean, I guess I had heard it, but he really is like the hardest working, most energetic person. I mean, Marco sometimes jokes around with me because the President and I never travel together, especially overseas, but really at all. We're never on an airplane together for the security reason. For the security reason reasons, for continuity of government reasons. And so everybody always, like, jokes with me. When you go on One of these 23 hour international trips with Donald Trump, if you're lucky, he'll sleep two hours. If you're unlucky, he'll be roaming around Air Force One, you know, busting your chops because you've fallen asleep and like, oh, he's low energy. Look, he's already asleep and he's, you know, been on the plane for 18 hours.

[Miranda Devine]

He wakes up the journalist for midnight.

[J.D. Vance]

Gaggles he wakes up the journalist for midnight gaggles There is just something about him. And I don't know if it's, you know, he's President, United States for four years this term, and he's just so focused on getting as much as possible done. But he really sleeps less and still has more energy than anybody that I know that's 40 years younger than he is. And that is, I mean, you hear people talk about it, you wonder how true it is. Trust me, I've seen it from the inside. He has unbelievable energy.

[Miranda Devine]

And I quickly wanted to ask you just about having children. I mean, you've described your childhood as pretty brutal.

[J.D. Vance]

Sure.

[Miranda Devine]

Your mother was a heroin addict. And so how do you kind of those parenting skills? You must be sort of. You have to invent them yourself, I guess, you know.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, you invent them yourself. But I also think this is one of the things that both is motivating about, but also attractive me to. My faith is there are, I think, very strong developed over literally hundreds of years, like Christian principles about how to be a dad, how to be a husband. And I try to follow that as much as possible. You know, I try not to lose my temper when I'm punishing my kids. I try to do it from a place of reason and not from a place of, oh, my God, I can't believe you just did that. And I'm mad about it. I try to be, you know, strict, but also loving. Like there are all of these things that, that you learn, I think, from, from, from being a Christian. That's helpful. I pick a lot of up from my wife because she grew up in a very, you know, very conventional middle class household. Her parents are great. They were very good to her and her sister. And so I think she has. And it's crazy. Miranda, I've actually, you know, back when we were. Before we were flying around in Air Force Two, people would stop my wife all the time at airports and say, you are so good with your kids. Like, we actually would have child psych. I remember, I'll never forget this. We had a child psychologist walk up to my wife and say, this is how I counsel people to interact with their kids.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

Because she's just very natural at it.

[Miranda Devine]

And then some of it you chose well.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, I did choose. I chose very well. Very lucky man. But some of it you pick up on the fly. Some of it you try to, you know, I had very good uncles who were very good father figures to me. My grandfather was very involved in my life. So there are definitely things that I pick up. But I also try to remind my kids. I mean, what was it we were watching? Oh, my son just read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. And so we watched the original Willy Wonka. Right? The really good one. Great movie, great movie. And he doesn't really understand Charlie's life. Think about it, he's 8 years old, he's never wanted for anything in his life. And we just, I think, you know, I like paused it and tried to Talk with my 8 year old about it because I'm like, you know, buddy, there but for the grace of God, would, would be your life. And there are a lot of kids in this country, a lot of kids in the world in particular, who struggle with having enough to eat. And that's one of the reasons why we care about what we do, is we want to make sure that everybody has access to good shelter and nutritious food and a loving family. And that's one of the reasons why I care about the things that I do. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to be vice president. But like, I try to remind my kids as much as possible that there are kids out there who have very, very unlucky lives. And I think because I had a rougher childhood, I have a different perspective.

[Miranda Devine]

It bred resilience though, didn't.

[J.D. Vance]

Did.

[Miranda Devine]

Do you worry that your kids don't have, won't have that adversity that I.

[J.D. Vance]

Worry about drove you? Oh, absolutely. I worry about that all the time. I mean, my kids have such a fortunate life. I mean, they have two parents who love them. Their parents are going to be together forever. They're never going to have to worry about where their next meal came from. So, yeah, in some ways that's what you want for your kids. But I do worry that that lack of adversity will breed a lack of resilience. And so that's why we try to talk about Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I try to talk about how, you know, there are things that happened in his life that were similar to daddy's life. And we try to just sort of discuss that with our kids because, you know, you can't force adversity on your children, but you can try to give them a different perspective. And that's what I try to do. But yeah, I worry about that all the time because Clarence Thomas made this point to me once. He's a great man, had a much rougher childhood than I did. He once told me that, you know, he used to be resentful about his childhood.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

And now he thinks it was his greatest blessing.

[Miranda Devine]

Wow.

[J.D. Vance]

Because it gave him a totally different perspective. And I feel the exact same way. I remember being in college and being resentful that, you know, I had to work three jobs and my friends didn't.

[Miranda Devine]

You must have been.

[J.D. Vance]

Oh, absolutely. Resentful of my mom in particular. And now. And by the way, Mom's clean and sober for going on 11 years. Great relationship.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

She was actually here this weekend hanging out with the kids, so Mom's doing great. I'm very, very proud of her.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

But when that resentment turns into appreciation, it was one of the great gifts of my life. And. And, yeah, there are ways in which I'm not. I didn't have a conventional relationship with my dad growing up, but there are a lot of ways in which the way that I grew up gave me great perspective, and hopefully my kids can benefit from that.

[Miranda Devine]

One last question about UFOs. So I'm a mad UFO lunatic.

[J.D. Vance]

Me, too.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. So, and you said, I think the ruthless podcast that you were going to. In August, you were going to figure out.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah.

[Miranda Devine]

What happens.

[J.D. Vance]

That was a little tongue in cheek. I have not figured it out yet. I don't have the time to figure it out yet.

[Miranda Devine]

But you've got access to all this.

[J.D. Vance]

I do, and I really want to sort of dig into it. You know, Marco is actually very interested in this, too. We talked about this little. We talked about this back in our Senate days. So, yeah, there's certainly an interest there. There's certainly an interest intrigue. But I haven't yet had the time to really dig in. Things have been so busy. But this is the, like, the crazy person inside of me. And there's, you know, all of us put the tinfoil hat on from time to time. I'm like, I wonder. I was like, I can't allow myself to become so busy that I spend the next three years and I don't get to the bottom of this. So I will get to the bottom of this, but it's going to take.

[Miranda Devine]

Me a little time because Tulsi Gabbard says that she believes there are aliens. Do you believe that?

[J.D. Vance]

You know, I don't. It's interesting. I wouldn't say that I do or don't believe it. I mean, I'm a big believer that there are things out there that we can't explain. And so if another person sees an alien, maybe I see an angel or a demon. So I'm a big believer that there are like spiritual forces working on the physical world that a lot of us don't see and a lot of us don't understand and a lot of us don't understand appreciate. But you know, is it aliens or is it our guardian angel or is it aliens or is it a not so guardian force that doesn't care about us or in fact actively wishes us harm? I don't know the answer to that question. What I try to do is I try to say my prayers. I try to be as good of a person as I can be and I try to do a good job and hopefully that's all I need to do.

[Miranda Devine]

Terrific. Thank you so much.

[J.D. Vance]

Good to see you.

[Miranda Devine]

Sorry to over. Thanks for joining us on podforce one. I'm Miranda Devine. Please give this podcast a like and a follow. It will help others to find these great conversations. We'll be back next week with more fantastic interviews.