← Pod Force One
Pod Force One
Larry Kudlow on how to make a fortune, Trump's real-world tariff logic, reining in the Fed, finding God and beating addiction.
00:54:08
Loading summary
Transcript254 lines
- [00:02]
Miranda Devine
Welcome to the Pod Force One podcast. I'm Miranda Devine, and today I'm coming to you from FOX News Studio A in midtown Manhattan. Today, we're joined by FOX Business host Larry Kudlow, who served as director for the National Economic Council during President Trump's first term. Thank you very much, Larry, for coming on the show. I wanted to.
- [00:26]
Larry Kudlow
Anything for Miranda. Anything. Thank you.
- [00:28]
Miranda Devine
Well, mutual.
- [00:29]
Larry Kudlow
You always come on our show. You do so great. Anything at all.
- [00:34]
Miranda Devine
I wanted to ask you first off about the Fed because that's in the news at the moment. And do you agree with Donald Trump's pressure campaign on Jerome Powell, who's friend of yours? Do you think that the Fed's become too woke, too political?
- [00:50]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, I do. I think Trump is right on this. I mean, I think a lot of people in his administration. Yeah, you don't like to talk about the Fed, but sometimes you kind of have to. And I always thought a tip off here was a sort of moderate, moderate type guy, really what I would call a sort of Wall street consensus economist named Mohamed El Erian, who's a nice chap. He's not a Trump supporter. He's not a supply side or he's not part of what I would call our group. But he came on the show about a month ago or something like that, five, six weeks ago, and he called for Jay Powell's resignation. And he said, with good logic, he said, basically, look, Powell's had such a zigzag approach at the Fed that he the longer he stays, the worse the independence argument gets and the worse the Fed's credibility gets.
- [01:54]
Miranda Devine
How do you mean? Because.
- [01:56]
Larry Kudlow
But yeah, I mean, I think in this case there's sort of two sides to it. One is the policy side where, you know, Joe Biden comes into office and spends like crazy and the Fed is shoving money into the economy to accommodate the Fed.
- [02:13]
Miranda Devine
Okay, inflation's just transitory, Right.
- [02:16]
Larry Kudlow
And then they said inflation was transit. First they said there was no inflation, then they said it was transitory. And then so having pushed all this money into the economy to finance the government spending and create what became a 9% inflation peak, ultimately a 20% cumulative inflation, then all of a sudden they step on the brakes. I mean, it's like a cartoon. And they step on the brakes in the middle of 2022, having done everything wrong in 21 and said everything wrong. I remember Janet Yellen saying the same thing. And then she went on CNN and you could see she said, well, I guess there is inflation. I called it the hostage Interview. She looked like one of the hostages in the Middle east, you know, at gunpoint. She's saying it's inflation. Well, that was kind of Jay Powell, too. So anyway, then they put on the brakes and they jam up interest rates by 500 basis points, 5 full percentage points. So that was dumb. And then right before the election, all of a sudden, out of the blue, he knocks down interest rates by 50 basis points, called the Jumbo rate cut in September, Historically. Look, I started my career at the New York Fed, all right, in 1973. So this is a long time I've been in the Fed. When I worked for Reagan, I was engaged in some Fed stuff. I've watched the Fed for all these years, and then I had lunch with Jay Powell once every. Once every couple weeks for three years when I was working for Trump. So I, I know a little bit about this story you don't get in the political season. You don't make big changes in monetary policy. It's just not done well. I don't know why. I mean, you have to ask him. Because he won't say. Right. He sort of dodges the question and says it's not political. The economy was not falling apart. I'm sorry. And the inflation rate, by the by, was at least a point or more over their target. So he does that and, you know, again, from pillar to post to pillar to post. And then the other thing you mentioned, culturally.
- [04:26]
Miranda Devine
Yeah, the woke stuff.
- [04:28]
Larry Kudlow
Right, the woke stuff.
- [04:29]
Miranda Devine
Lael Brainard was wanting, giving speeches about the Fed getting involved in climate change policy.
- [04:34]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, well, he joined. He joined this consortium of central banks, which. Global consortium central banks, which was essentially based on climate change, but also maybe worse than that, the bank supervision. Right. The Fed supervises banks and they have bank examiners and so forth. They're not the only agency, but they're a principal agency. And they were basically telling banks to make loans based on some definition of climate change and don't make loans for fossil fuels. That was the key. I mean, everybody started hearing talk and anecdotes from bankers that the Fed supervisors were saying, stop making loans for oil and gas pipelines or drilling or fracking or any of those things. And then there was also. The Fed set up a lot of DEI offices. I can't verify the board in Washington. I think so, but I know they pushed the regional reserve banks, many of whom, many of which had set up these DEI offices. So, yeah, he was pretty, pretty woke about it. And this stuff gets out, the public understands.
- [06:00]
Miranda Devine
Was he just wake or do you think he's gone, woke himself?
- [06:04]
Larry Kudlow
Oh, I think he swung with the political wind is what I did. I mean, I know Jay. Jay, let's see. Jay was. Worked in the fiscal area, the Treasury Department under Papa Bush. He's not a crazy person. He just became very political and then denied it and made a lot of bad decisions. Look, it wasn't the best. It wasn't the best appointment. It was, you know, Trump really never forgave his Treasury Secretary, Steve Mnuchin, who, I might add, was a very loyal and good treasury secretary. But on that point, Trump never forgave him. And, and what about. There was some pretty bad stories about that.
- [06:46]
Miranda Devine
Oh, were they?
- [06:49]
Larry Kudlow
I, I mean, again, I don't. Mnuchin's a palamine, but the fact is there were some Oval Office meetings where the President just raised his voice, the Treasury Secretary and then said, he said, at one point, he said, you're not. You're in charge of the Fed. He says to me, he said, I'm in the nec. You're in charge of the Fed. All these Fed appointments, which I did, but of course, backdoor, I passed them so that Mnuchin could comment on because the NEC and the treasury should always work together. But why did he get.
- [07:23]
Miranda Devine
Why did Trump get angry with Mnuchin? Was it, was it over Powell or everything else?
- [07:27]
Larry Kudlow
Well, no, it was over. It was over Powell.
- [07:29]
Miranda Devine
Oh, was it?
- [07:30]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, because from the beginning, the first term, Powell started raising interest rates not long after Trump's tax cut bill, and there was no inflation and no one could figure that out. I mean, it was, it was, it was dumb. I mean, it helped. The economy was growing. Yeah, we had it growing by, at one point, you know, national GDP by 4%. Better. It was really something.
- [07:54]
Miranda Devine
It was doing so well until Covid.
- [07:56]
Larry Kudlow
Well, yeah, but, but even before that, there was a slowdown because the Fed started raising interest rates, and I never understood that myself. And then they finally stopped raising them and actually began to draw them back down again. So Trump was furious at Powell in the first term.
- [08:15]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [08:16]
Larry Kudlow
For jacking up rates for no particular reason. Anyway, it's sort of a sad, sad tale. If it weren't such serious business. It reads comedically to some extent. People yell at each other and oh, my God. But no, no, look, here's the bottom line is President Trump's going to take the Fed over as he should. I mean, I'm for Fed independence, but I don't think they're from another planet. And I think a president who has an economic policy Particularly one is clearly defined as, as Trump does, should have the opportunity to implement his policy. And whether you're an activist judge. Okay. Or the chairman of the Federal Reserve or the chairman or a member of the Federal Trade Commission, you shouldn't block the president. He is the chief executive and the commander in chief. He is elected by the people. You are exactly right.
- [09:16]
Miranda Devine
Popular vote.
- [09:17]
Larry Kudlow
This is why the weaponization falls apart. The, this is why the law there should fall apart. The ultimate jury was November of 2024 when as you say, he won the popular vote. He won all the swing states.
- [09:29]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [09:30]
Larry Kudlow
It's the biggest, biggest victory in quite some time. He should have a chance to put his platform in place. That's what people want. So nobody should be, no one other unelected person should stand in the way.
- [09:43]
Miranda Devine
And when you say Donald Trump should take over the Fed, you mean that ultimately he will have four of the seven governors. He'll have a majority of people who are. He's appointed.
- [09:55]
Larry Kudlow
That's correct, yeah. I mean the way let's, the way you look at it. Well, so he'll replace Powell next May. All right. That's in the cards. Yeah.
- [10:04]
Miranda Devine
Who with who do you, who would you in your. If you could wave a magic wand. Who's the best?
- [10:09]
Larry Kudlow
I felt the two Kevin's were the best. Kevin Hasset and Kevin Warsh, they're both very dear friends of mine.
- [10:17]
Miranda Devine
Kevin Wash is a young guy, isn't he? And very ambitious.
- [10:21]
Larry Kudlow
He's a younger guy with black hair, a lot of experience. He was a Fed governor for I think a half a dozen years. Worked in the Treasury. He also worked at the NEC as a staff position. But they're both very smart fellows. They're both personal friends of mine. I don't make a choice between the two, but I've told the President and Scott Bessant and others. I think it should come from one of the two Kevins. They both do a very good job. Besant just made a speech and an op ed piece rather over the weekend and you need a top to bottom review of the Fed. Everything. Monetary policy, regulatory policy, personnel policy, staffing policy, economic models, policy. There has to be a thorough going and you need somebody from the outside and then bring in new people. So look, what. So Steve Myron's going to take a temporary job at the Fed and take a leave of absence from the Council of Economic Advisors. But that seat will be appointed by, by Mr. Trump. Then there let's Lisa Cook and then Lisa, Lisa Cook. I mean she doesn't Understand it. But she's been fired.
- [11:34]
Miranda Devine
Yes.
- [11:34]
Larry Kudlow
All right. She has been fired. Yeah, the meeting.
- [11:38]
Miranda Devine
Who's paying her salary?
- [11:40]
Larry Kudlow
Well, that's an interesting. It's all interesting question here. First of all, she's been fired for these allegations. You don't have to go. The court doesn't have to prove her guilty or not. By the way, if the President fires you, you're fired. Okay. President appoints. This is this odd thing. The President appoints Federal Reserve governors. He appoints them with the confirmation of the Senate. Therefore he should be able to fire them 100%. I mean, that's. I've always believed that Joe Biden appointed.
- [12:10]
Miranda Devine
Lisa Cook one of his DEI hires.
- [12:13]
Larry Kudlow
He sure did. Well, I guess it was a DEI hire.
- [12:16]
Miranda Devine
All of his appointments were DEI hires.
- [12:18]
Larry Kudlow
You know, people have a debt to rights on the mortgage fraud. But even putting that aside, she must not appear. I mean, she should not be permitted to go into the building. She has been fired by the President. The FOMC meets the 16th and the 17th, if I'm not mistaken. And she must not be able to sit in those meetings. She must not be able to vote in those meetings. She has been fired. Now, the issue is something called cause. All right? You can only fire Fed people for cause. The trouble is, the Federal Reserve act of 1913 never defined the word cause. All right, what does cause mean?
- [12:59]
Miranda Devine
Whatever the President says.
- [13:00]
Larry Kudlow
Well, I think that's correct. That cause should be whatever the chief executive says it is.
- [13:06]
Miranda Devine
But Abby Lowell Hunter, Biden's lawyer who's representing Lisa Cook, doesn't think that's the case.
- [13:12]
Larry Kudlow
Well, I would want it. I mean, he didn't do that well with Hunter. No, I. I don't know that I'd want him as my lawyer. I thought that was sort of a lousy.
- [13:19]
Miranda Devine
But it's strange. He's representing Letitia James and Adam Schiff, who were both in trouble for mortgage fraud.
- [13:25]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, well, that's up to them.
- [13:28]
Miranda Devine
What does that tell you?
- [13:28]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, it tells me, by the way, they're all in cahoots. Yeah, you know, talk about the Fed independence of the lack thereof. They all said the same thing, by the way. They won't be bullied. They all had the same talking point, which I found very interesting. Interesting? Letitia James is the New York State Attorney General. Lisa Cook, who was teaching school in Michigan, I think, and as a Fed board member, and then Pennsylvania, Adam Schiff, they all had the same phrase, we will not be bullied. And as you point out, the same lawyer. I find that to be very interesting. Okay. And it, it tells me that the Democrats, you know, they're, this is just, this is just the. This is. They're still trying to practice some kind of united anti Trump. I don't know, what's the right word? Lawfare in reverse or something. But anyway, he's gonna win this battle. Trump will win this battle. On the Fed. Isabelle Brown. Isabel Brown. Isabel Brown. The wait is almost over. She's joining Daily Wire plus with the Isabel Brown Show.
- [14:40]
Miranda Devine
Cannot wait for you guys to see.
- [14:41]
Larry Kudlow
How hard we've been working. I could not be more excited for this new adventure. You can expect larger than life guests, deeper questions. To the nerds meeting the President of the United States and the Vice President and now meeting our new American Pope. This is crazy.
- [14:56]
Miranda Devine
Let's jump in. Join me every weekday for the Isabel.
- [14:59]
Larry Kudlow
Brown show on Daily Wire plus or.
- [15:01]
Miranda Devine
Wherever you get your podcasts. At Panasonic, we build technologies that turn complex data into smarter decisions, helping you prepare for what's next. From the factory floor to 40,000ft in the sky, our solutions streamline operations and reduce waste. We're building the future so you can lead it. More than a solutions provide provider, we're a committed partner that can help your business move forward with intelligence, stability and vision. Panasonic, create today, enrich tomorrow tariffs. You were against tariffs. I think that was the majority position among economists and Wall street people. But Donald Trump loves tariffs. So, you know, I mean, he sees them as very useful in a number of ways, whether it's bending other countries to his will or paying down the debt eventually. What do you think? I mean, I know you were against tariffs previously. Do you think he's right?
- [16:06]
Larry Kudlow
I've been a supporter of his tariff policy, yeah. Both in the first term and now.
- [16:12]
Miranda Devine
But then was China, wasn't it, as a weapon against China?
- [16:15]
Larry Kudlow
Yes, that's right.
- [16:16]
Miranda Devine
But this is more broad ranging.
- [16:18]
Larry Kudlow
Yes, well, I, I made the case. I will make the case to you, however incredulous you may become, that Donald Trump is a free trader. He is. And I have had long, soulful talks with him about this point that started 10 years ago. And I wrote a couple op ed pieces in the first term, which he signed off on before the G7 and the G20 in the post, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal making that case, that fundamentally, his vision, fundamentally, he's an internationalist, first of all. Always did business around the world. There's isolation and stuff, just completely wrong, as we're seeing. But on trade, fundamentally, he wants, he would like a world of zero tariffs or equally low tariffs, ending non tariff barriers and various government subsidies, sneaky tariffs. Okay. That's the world that he wants. And that is, I still believe, one of the guiding lights for his entire trade policy. And sometimes, I mean, look there, we don't live in a world of free trade. We have not lived in such a world probably since the few years following World War II.
- [17:47]
Miranda Devine
Oh, really?
- [17:48]
Larry Kudlow
Yes. If you go back and look, everybody was helping the Allies recover in Europe and Japan and so forth, but that didn't last long. And the world trading system has been broken for decades and decades.
- [18:08]
Miranda Devine
You mean because of non tariff barriers?
- [18:10]
Larry Kudlow
That's correct. Both tariffs and non. I mean, look, these.
- [18:12]
Miranda Devine
And China getting into the world trade and being a.
- [18:15]
Larry Kudlow
That's right.
- [18:16]
Miranda Devine
Supposedly a third world country.
- [18:17]
Larry Kudlow
Right. Allowing China normalization and admission to the World Trade Organization. And the guy who had a big influence on me was, is Bob Lighthizer. Because he, he really showed me when I, when I came in to run the National Economic Council in the first term, I, you know, Lighthizer and I were two Reagan kids. That's when we first met. But putting that, he, he really showed me the differentials, you know, what India was charging in tariffs and what China was charging in tariffs and what the EU was charging in tariff tariffs. So you and I had a sort of right, mainstream free trade view, but I didn't know much about trade and the differentials were enormous.
- [19:06]
Miranda Devine
So America was getting ripped off.
- [19:08]
Larry Kudlow
America was getting ripped off. And I want to just back up to make this point. One of the great things Trump did in his first term, certainly the tax cut bill, which was terrific. But he. Where he rang the bell on the China threat. Yes, he rang that bell before COVID and yes, and he rang it over and over again. Now he had said it as a private citizen, but as president, it obviously carried much more weight. And the China trade threat, and of course the impact, the negative impact on the American economy and the deindustrialization in the heartland and also in general, the national security threat. You know, we had this naive view about China that if only we were nice to them, they would be great to us and be some kind of ally or an economic view, was if we could persuade them with low tariffs to adopt a capitalist economy. And they actually did for a period of while, the Dung Shi Ping reforms, but those were long over by the time Xi Jinping comes in. And Xi Jinping is himself very dictatorial. We still have the best advanced technology in the world, okay, by far. But we must Never lose that. Those are. I, I call them the family jewels. We had to protect the family jewels. Very important now.
- [20:43]
Miranda Devine
You mean from IP stealing? Ip, yeah.
- [20:47]
Larry Kudlow
Getting ahead of myself. Yes. And, and what did China. The biggest rap against China was the intellectual property. Or, and, or if you. And what I learned in, on the China trade team was that American businesses operating in China, almost all of them had Chinese boards.
- [21:12]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [21:13]
Larry Kudlow
They had a majority, they had directors. That is correct. Yeah. And those boards generated the forced transfer of technology where literally you had to come in and put your plans down on the table.
- [21:25]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [21:25]
Larry Kudlow
And now these Chinese are sitting there writing this stuff up. Well, that has to stop. And of course, because of their tariffs and their cheap subsidies, they're cheap products because they were subsidized.
- [21:37]
Miranda Devine
Undercutting government, undercutting American.
- [21:39]
Larry Kudlow
Right. They weren't buying any of our commodities.
- [21:41]
Miranda Devine
No.
- [21:42]
Larry Kudlow
So we, we wound up negotiating a pretty good deal, I might add. The so called phase one deal that signed just before COVID hit. Covid. Yeah. But it was never implemented. Yeah, it wasn't implemented during the COVID year. But Biden's. The Chinese didn't take Biden seriously, so it was never implemented. Ringing the bell about the China trade threat and the China national security threat was one of Trump's great achievements. And secondly, he has a free trade vision, but he's willing to use tariffs to implement that vision. And sometimes you have to play hardball. And I have come to agree with that point of view. I don't think, by the way, there's a couple important points. I don't think we're going to see anything higher than roughly a 15% tariff, effective tariff. See, you got all these people, critics saying, well, it's going to be like the 1930s. Everybody knows about Smoot Hawley. Smoot Hawley was a 60% tariff. And Smoot Hawley did trigger retaliation around the world. Okay. And that helped to bring the Great Depression. We haven't had retaliation except for small, temporary retaliation from China and more recently Canada, which has been changed. What we've had is deal making. This is part of Trump's genius.
- [23:19]
Miranda Devine
Well, Europe was incredible.
- [23:22]
Larry Kudlow
But people, yeah, they still. This global trade war, retaliation never happened.
- [23:28]
Miranda Devine
They all capitulated.
- [23:29]
Larry Kudlow
Right? They did. And instead of flocking to China, they flocked to the United States. And our trump card here was always our massive economy. Yeah. Not just, you know, our consumer economy, but our massive economy. And Trump knew that. And I think I knew what he's doing. I mean, I've talked to him a lot about this and let the critics, they can say. The critics, let them say what they want to say. He always outsmarts them.
- [23:56]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [23:57]
Larry Kudlow
And we wind up having a much improved trade policy that's going to be. And it'll change. It'll go up, it'll go down. Sometimes there'll be tariffs, sometimes there won't be, but it'll be much improved. And the level, the barriers will be lowered and better opportunities for American businesses will develop all around the world because of this. And it's going to take a while and as I say, there'll be bumps on the road, but that's. He will wind up. He's well on his way to a big victory. The other thing I want to say is if you want to understand Trump, Trump in trade policy, I said he's a pre trader and so forth. He wants factories, he loves factories. Right, Factories.
- [24:38]
Miranda Devine
So on shoring manufacturing.
- [24:41]
Larry Kudlow
Yes, factories.
- [24:42]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [24:42]
Larry Kudlow
He wants to. His tax policy is geared towards building new factories with 100% depreciation. His trade policy is geared towards building new factories with tariffs when appropriate, or better deals bringing foreign money into the United States and so forth. He wants factories and you can't build them overnight, but he'll get them. You already look in the economy today, the single strongest part is business equipment investment right now and factory orders. Right, okay.
- [25:18]
Miranda Devine
And in jobs, it's manufacturing jobs.
- [25:20]
Larry Kudlow
No, manufacturing jobs actually been declining in recent months.
- [25:25]
Miranda Devine
But government jobs are down.
- [25:26]
Larry Kudlow
Government jobs are way down overall. Jobs are kind of flat, to be honest. But the point is the factory thing, between his trade policy and his tax policy, we will see a renaissance of factory building in this country and it'll be all over. Some of it will be in the Midwest, some of it will be up in the northern states, some of it will be down south. My suspicion is the red states will take better advantage of it than the blue states will because of lower taxes and right to work laws. But I don't want to have to. I'm just saying he loves factories and that's a big part of his trade policy. He wants fair trade, he wants reciprocal trade. That's the free trade. Trump, bring down foreign barriers. Okay, here at home. Onshoring manufacturing factories.
- [26:24]
Miranda Devine
Now, are you worried at all that the stock market is really driven by the magnificent seven, the seven big tech stocks and that we're so reliant on them? You know, you had Trump the other night and his opening of the Rose Garden Club. He had the dinner for all the, the big tech guys, the Mark Zuckerberg and so On, I mean, that concerns me a little bit.
- [26:50]
Larry Kudlow
Are you long? Do you own the index?
- [26:53]
Miranda Devine
Well, no, obviously it's very nice for our 401 index.
- [26:57]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, you should buy it. It's very cheap nowadays.
- [27:00]
Miranda Devine
But isn't it a risk, just the seven companies?
- [27:03]
Larry Kudlow
Well, it is more than seven companies, actually. More interesting, I point this out. Use the Dow Jones. If you're worried about the S and P, use the Dow 30 because there's only, if I'm not mistaken, two. I think Microsoft and Apple are the only two that are in the Dow of the Magnificent Seven in the S and P. And anyway, and so the Dow is making record highs. Okay. And the Nasdaq is making record highs. No, I'm not worried. Profits look very good. Profits are the mother's milk of stocks. As I've said for many decades, they look very good. I know. I'm not fretting about, you know, let me just say, Kudlow philosophy and many of your readers in the New York Post will disagree with this. I think that passive investing beats active investing in the long run. Always. Okay. Now I have, since we live in New York, we all know some very smart people who are hedge fund managers who may outperform, but the work has been done, academic work has been done on this. Buying the index of stocks and holding it in the long run vastly outperforms a trading strategy.
- [28:29]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [28:30]
Larry Kudlow
And particularly after the expense of purchasing the hedge fund or the index. I mean the index you can buy for a nickel now, it's so cheap. And also tax considerations. Okay, you get to control your taxes. My pal Jim Glassman, James Glassman, who used to write a column for the Washington Post. But many academics have done work on this by far. You go over 30, 40, 50 year periods, stocks outperform everything. That was Jeremy Siegel's work. And my Princeton professor, Bert Malkiel, that was his work done. Stocks for the long run. And secondly, buy the indexes and hold them.
- [29:10]
Miranda Devine
Takes all the fun out of it.
- [29:11]
Larry Kudlow
It does. And that's the best thing in the world. So the market falls in April when Mr. Trump unveils his trade policy. Perhaps not the best unveiling we've ever seen, the new policy. But the market goes down. Now it's up, now it's up 30%. Those lows, you wouldn't have been able to do that now might some brilliant hedge fund guy. Yeah, you can probably find one or two, but they're very expensive and hard to find. Don't panic. You're buying America. Yes, you're buying Freedom and democracy and basically capitalism forever. And it all, it works. The numbers, the Jeremy Siegel stuff, you know, from Penn. I know Jeremy, brilliant guy. Bert Malkiel taught this in Princeton for so long. Always don't, don't trade it, own it. And you can buy these indexes, you know with the new technology, it's so cheap to buy them, you're not paying brokerage fees. You're not, you don't have to pay taxes when they want to pay taxes. You pay taxes when you hold it for 50 years and you'll get wealthy. And you know, by the way, the Trump thing, which was actually was a lot of us argued this, the savings accounts.
- [30:29]
Miranda Devine
Yes.
- [30:30]
Larry Kudlow
Is a fabulous idea.
- [30:31]
Miranda Devine
Great idea.
- [30:31]
Larry Kudlow
A fabulous idea. Yeah. You they'll get to them in stocks and they would, well, they should just buy the damn index of what they should do and hold it. Now learn something about how economics works, how free market capitalism works and they'll get wealthy.
- [30:46]
Miranda Devine
Now you were, your first job was at the Fed, but you were a Wall street guy in the 80s, in the greedy's good decade when New York was just going off. There were, you know, limos outside, all these young great days. But it ended up for you also.
- [31:07]
Larry Kudlow
Yes.
- [31:07]
Miranda Devine
The other end of the stick was a drug and alcohol issue.
- [31:11]
Larry Kudlow
Yes. So tell us about which I made no secret of. Not years. No, listen, I got caught up in it.
- [31:18]
Miranda Devine
And why was that?
- [31:20]
Larry Kudlow
Who knows?
- [31:21]
Miranda Devine
Was it just everybody was doing it.
- [31:24]
Larry Kudlow
You know, some people just got hooked on alcohol and, or cocaine or other drugs, whatever, because it was fun. Other people didn't, you know. Yeah. I was chief economist at Bear Stearns. I had been at Bear Stearns and I went down to Reagan. Then I came back after his first turn. Yeah, I kind of got caught up in the zeitgeist, I guess. But I never, I never blamed anyone or you know, said well because of this, because of that, it was because of me.
- [32:04]
Miranda Devine
But it was also, wasn't it like the stress of the job, the long hours, the conviviality of it, you know, is it unusual in New York?
- [32:12]
Larry Kudlow
It's funny, down through the years, I mean I've been sober now 30 years with God's grace.
- [32:17]
Miranda Devine
Congratulations.
- [32:19]
Larry Kudlow
Down through the years people have asked me that and kind of offered them up as show say excuses. But I knew lots of people right. At Bear Stearns and Goldman Sachs and others who had the same stress as I had and they were fine. So I, I, I've always taken personal responsibility for it and I think that.
- [32:41]
Miranda Devine
Be genetic as well.
- [32:43]
Larry Kudlow
It could have been. Although I was really the only drunk in my family, as far as I know. As far as I know. So I just got caught up in it.
- [32:55]
Miranda Devine
And when did you realize it was a problem and not just blowing off steam?
- [33:00]
Larry Kudlow
The last few years were very difficult. And I always refer to my saintly wife, whom, you know, Judy in her own right, a fabulous painter, but we met in the Reagan administration. But she sent me away to Hazelton for five months and that was the turning point. That was the best thing.
- [33:22]
Miranda Devine
So she realized it was a problem before you did?
- [33:25]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, well, she saw the solution ultimately. And it wasn't the kind of thing where you, you dry out for a week or two and to go away. Miracle place called Hazleton in Minnesota. It's been an hour from the Twin Cities.
- [33:46]
Miranda Devine
And why was it a miracle?
- [33:47]
Larry Kudlow
Well, for me it was because it taught me how little power I have over many things in life, including alcohol and drugs, but over many things and gave me a whole different perspective. You know, they, they. The whole 12 step program, which I am devoted to even to this day. I go to four or five meetings a week, frankly.
- [34:15]
Miranda Devine
Wow. That was Hazelton's philosophy.
- [34:18]
Larry Kudlow
They started it. Yes, right. Yes. They have very old school. Bill Wilson, Alcoholics Anonymous, the so called big book. Yeah. And they taught me and I hung onto it, you know, it stuck. And I actually came to faith through that fellowship a few years later. They don't teach that, but a few years later I converted to Catholicism.
- [34:48]
Miranda Devine
How, how did that come about?
- [34:51]
Larry Kudlow
Well, I just kind of fell in love with the Mass. I fell in love with the Mass. And I was in and out through Judy. It took a while. No, it was really through friends of mine, lay friends of mine, and then some priest friends of mine.
- [35:14]
Miranda Devine
And what was it about the Mass?
- [35:15]
Larry Kudlow
And I was sober and I was acknowledging what they call a higher power. Power greater than yourself. It all kind of worked for me. And at some point after I was a couple years sober, I just fell in love with Jesus. I just fell in love with Jesus. And, you know, it stuck. Friend of mine who was a priest actually up in Connecticut, I remember talking to him and he says, jesus is there when you fall, and Jesus is there to help pick you up. And I've never forgotten that. Just that. And, uh, I've been pretty active in the Catholic Church. We, we actually built, if you can believe this, we built a new church in Reading, Connecticut.
- [36:20]
Miranda Devine
Oh, really?
- [36:21]
Larry Kudlow
Most churches are going down. Yeah, we did.
- [36:25]
Miranda Devine
And you've got people to fill it.
- [36:27]
Larry Kudlow
Well, it's not as filled as much as it was the post Covid. Not quite as full as it used to be. Including myself probably, but yeah. Anyways, it's full on Christmas and Easter. Yes.
- [36:42]
Miranda Devine
And I guess, I mean as a convert you'd be more devout maybe than a lot of tribal Catholics who are born into it. What is it about the actual Catholic church that you chose? Of all the religions you could have chosen, was it just your friends?
- [36:58]
Larry Kudlow
I don't know. It had probably had something to do with my friends. By the way, I don't want to measure myself more or less.
- [37:06]
Miranda Devine
No, no.
- [37:07]
Larry Kudlow
You know, I, I, I am who I am.
- [37:10]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [37:11]
Larry Kudlow
And you know, try to live sort of the right way if you will. You know, I just to me, getting involved in the 12 step program.
- [37:22]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [37:25]
Larry Kudlow
And coming to faith with Jesus, you know, were the two turning points in my life. I'm Ashley Graham and as a parent I know the back to school transition can be a lot when it comes to wellness. Ollie supports me and my family through it all. Kids multi is big in my house. It supports their immune system and they love to take it. A win win for everyone. Shop these products at Ollie D or retailers nationwide. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch.
- [38:10]
Miranda Devine
Yet, here are 15 reasons why you should.
- [38:13]
Larry Kudlow
One, it's $15 a month.
- [38:15]
Miranda Devine
Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contract. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront.
- [38:28]
Larry Kudlow
Payment of 45 for 3 month plan. 15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first 3 months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Cmobile.com.
- [38:38]
Miranda Devine
You'Ve been married 40 years?
- [38:40]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, 39, 38 years.
- [38:43]
Miranda Devine
So she was there through that bad time?
- [38:45]
Larry Kudlow
Yes, she was.
- [38:46]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [38:46]
Larry Kudlow
Yes she was. She is a saint. And you know, I'm not perfect. I mean I do dumb things occasionally. Say some dumb things. God, imagine that Rather had back. There's a great line in the 12 step program about restraint of pen and tongue. And since we're in the pen and tongue business, boy is that true. But I do take it.
- [39:10]
Miranda Devine
We talk very serious. Is once about conquering addiction. I stupidly said that. But you said no. You never really conquer it. Right every day that's Right.
- [39:22]
Larry Kudlow
It's a daily.
- [39:23]
Miranda Devine
Is there a day?
- [39:24]
Larry Kudlow
It's a daily.
- [39:25]
Miranda Devine
35 years. You don't think about or. 30 years.
- [39:27]
Larry Kudlow
No, no, actually I, I have, I read the Prayer and Meditation every morning.
- [39:33]
Miranda Devine
The Serenity Prayer.
- [39:34]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, well, the Serenity Prayer. And then, and there's a meditation book called Reflections and then there's one called a 24 hour book. And I have a friend of mine that emails it to me.
- [39:48]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [39:49]
Larry Kudlow
He has a mailing list of hundreds of people. Yeah. And yeah, I look at it every day.
- [39:54]
Miranda Devine
Probably helps with life and the show.
- [39:56]
Larry Kudlow
And it does grounds. It's exactly right. Yeah. You know, I, I'm so blessed because I got a second chance in my life.
- [40:05]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [40:06]
Larry Kudlow
Because the crash and burn was pretty awful. And then in sobriety, I underwent a career change. I almost didn't even realize it for a while. I mean, I went from being, you know, master of the universe. Yes, that's right. Yeah.
- [40:23]
Miranda Devine
To a lowly scribe.
- [40:24]
Larry Kudlow
Well, that's right. Then all of us, all of a sudden, I'm hosting TV shows for a living.
- [40:30]
Miranda Devine
And you're the best, you know, person on Fox News. You're the highest rated.
- [40:35]
Larry Kudlow
We've had a good run here. I love working at Fox, but I will say that the CNBC years were very good. Yeah, they were good. And then out of the blue, Mr. Trump asked me to come down and come in his cabinet as the National Economic Director. National economic. I didn't expect that. I never expect that.
- [41:01]
Miranda Devine
So your post Wall street, post sobriety career has been just as rewarding as the pre. Or more.
- [41:09]
Larry Kudlow
It's been much better.
- [41:10]
Miranda Devine
Much better.
- [41:11]
Larry Kudlow
It's been much more fulfilling. I think my heart is in the right spot.
- [41:19]
Miranda Devine
And you've made an impact on America.
- [41:22]
Larry Kudlow
Well, perhaps so. Perhaps so. I, I don't know that it was, it was a great honor to come back to the White House.
- [41:31]
Miranda Devine
Were you tempted to come back again?
- [41:33]
Larry Kudlow
Was I tempted?
- [41:34]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [41:35]
Larry Kudlow
This time I thought about it and President and I talked about it. But you know, I was very busy at Fox and as I said, I, I love working here. I'm still very much in touch with him and many of his senior people are either friends of mine or former deputies of mine. I think he's taken the country exactly the right directions here. I mean, I think he's better than he was in the first term.
- [42:16]
Miranda Devine
And it's funny, I mean, he's never had a drink or a smoke or taken drugs. And he says that's because his brother had a big problem and he. So in a way. Although he's never done that. He understands addiction very well and admires people who overcome it.
- [42:34]
Larry Kudlow
Once or twice I've spoken to him. Oh, really? Briefly about it, but very briefly about it. It's very personal to him, and it's very personal to me.
- [42:47]
Miranda Devine
Yeah, I'm sorry to.
- [42:48]
Larry Kudlow
No, I change it up. No, no, no. I've been public about this from time to time, you know, but it's so admirable.
- [42:57]
Miranda Devine
I think people want to know that it's possible, especially when, you know, the society is so soaked with drugs at the moment, you can't walk down the street in New York without smelling pot.
- [43:10]
Larry Kudlow
You know, I've always felt if. If anyone listens to this stuff, if I can get sober, you can get.
- [43:21]
Miranda Devine
Right.
- [43:21]
Larry Kudlow
You know, and I was, you know, at. At the bottom of the class there. That's right. And. But. But also I. I think that the faith part, whether you. Not the specific religion, but having faith in God or having faith in a power greater than yourself, is a phenomenal, wonderful way to live. You know, we. Several years ago, I believe you were there. We. In the Reagan Library. I got the National Review, the Buckley Award from National Review.
- [44:04]
Miranda Devine
I wasn't, but I remember it.
- [44:06]
Larry Kudlow
Yeah, we were out there, which was a great honor. Bill Buckley, I was a senior editor for a couple years at National View, and Bill and Pat Buckley were very, very dear friends of Judy and me. Very dear. And they understood the whole problem of addiction, drinking. But Bill and I would often talk this during the sober years how. And he was greatly concerned how you can have a great country and a great civilization without any religion, without God in it.
- [44:43]
Miranda Devine
Yeah, Because America was founded by people of faith.
- [44:46]
Larry Kudlow
Of course, there's a debate now this. Senator Kane of Virginia is trying to deny the Declaration of Independence, for heaven's sake. You know, it's right.
- [44:55]
Miranda Devine
Tom Jackson, One nation under God.
- [44:57]
Larry Kudlow
I mean, it's right there. You know, we are endowed by our creator. It didn't say we are endowed by the Ways and Means Committee. It says we are the thing, as.
- [45:07]
Miranda Devine
Joe Biden called it. You know, the thing.
- [45:09]
Larry Kudlow
The thing. And, you know, Bill. So I went back. I mean, he wrote this in 1951. God, man @ Yale was when he came on the scene. But he talked about the need for religion.
- [45:22]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [45:23]
Larry Kudlow
And society. And to have God in families. In families and in your life as individuals.
- [45:30]
Miranda Devine
It breeds humility in a way.
- [45:31]
Larry Kudlow
I think it does. I think that's right. And it breeds better behavior, and it breeds personal and individual responsibility. It also breeds better Families, which in turn breeds better communities, which in turn breeds better workplaces. And one of the, I think, wonderful things that President Trump has done is he has put religion back into the country. Yes, he has.
- [45:57]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [45:58]
Larry Kudlow
For a variety. I know. And, you know, I wonder, obviously his entire presidency, as he himself has said. Yeah. That God spared him this providential presidency.
- [46:08]
Miranda Devine
That was that assassination attempt in Butler. I mean.
- [46:10]
Larry Kudlow
That's correct.
- [46:11]
Miranda Devine
A millimeter would have changed the course of history.
- [46:14]
Larry Kudlow
That's correct.
- [46:15]
Miranda Devine
And he understands that.
- [46:17]
Larry Kudlow
He does. He's talked about it. And the fact that he is riding the ship culturally and putting faith in God spiritually back into the country, back into the country's thinking back into the country's culture is a very healthy thing. You know, cutting taxes is terrific. Better trade deals is fabulous. You know, ending wars. Terrific stuff. Putting God back into America. Now that's something. That's fabulous. That's just terrific. Fabulous stuff will make everyone better, even people who are not believers, which is fine. I respect that. It'll even get them to think about it. To think about it. You know, you asked me earlier, during the course of a day of any, almost any given day, I pray several times, short prayers. Okay. And, and I say to people in my 12 step meetings, okay, you, you, you may not want to pray, but if you just think about praying.
- [47:27]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [47:28]
Larry Kudlow
You're making progress.
- [47:29]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [47:29]
Larry Kudlow
You'll slow yourself down. Well, what Mr. Trump has done is he's made everyone think about faith. Yes. God. Okay. And that is. Or some kind of higher power power. And that's going to make us all better. It's going to. I mean, it. He will have many achievements. He's already had many achievements. This will be one of his best achievements. He has put God back into this country.
- [47:54]
Miranda Devine
And what an unlikely person, really. I mean, a billionaire from New York.
- [47:59]
Larry Kudlow
I don't know. Yeah. All these, you know, wonderful gifts come in strange packages.
- [48:04]
Miranda Devine
Yes.
- [48:04]
Larry Kudlow
Miranda, you never know.
- [48:06]
Miranda Devine
No, I think we have to wrap up, sadly. But I wanted to ask you, you've been very successful yourself in many fields. You've met lots of successful people. What is the secret that you see of success?
- [48:20]
Larry Kudlow
I think one of the secrets of success is faith is having faith. Keeping faith, I think that's very important. And then that goes hand in hand with what is, I think is hard work. Success comes from hard work. Hard work. You know, by the way, I still, I mean, I'm no spring chicken. I still work six days a week.
- [48:47]
Miranda Devine
Yes, you do. With your radio show on Saturday.
- [48:49]
Larry Kudlow
Three hours of radio Saturday and that, you know, that's their piece.
- [48:55]
Miranda Devine
And you still as exuberant in third hour of that radio show as you are on Monday.
- [49:01]
Larry Kudlow
Sometimes it gets worse. So into it. But when I was in the White House, I used to speak every six months or so to the White House interns.
- [49:14]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [49:15]
Larry Kudlow
You know, we go back to that auditorium, whatever it's called, behind the eob. And I would, pretty much every time I would meet with them and be hundreds kids, beautiful kids come to work, you know, as interns. And I would just say, you know, you have to work hard. And I would say, and when you think you're working hard, that means you have to work harder. And then when you're starting to feel sorry for yourself and you think you're working too hard, you need to step it up and work even harder. And that is the key to success. When I was a kid, yeah. Out of Princeton graduate school, my first job was at the New York Fed. I used to show up on Saturdays. Okay. And not many people did. Yeah, not many people did. There were some and I had some. I was there for three years, whatever. Plus had some great jobs.
- [50:19]
Miranda Devine
Why were you like that?
- [50:20]
Larry Kudlow
I just, I, it's just inculcated in me. My dad was a hard worker. I think that had something to do with it. Also. I never thought I was smart enough or good enough. I, I needed to just, you know, I, I just, I needed to feel like I, I had the edge or would learn, but stuff that I wasn't getting done, I had to, I want to read everything and still kind of like that.
- [50:44]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [50:46]
Larry Kudlow
Working hard. Working hard and keeping faith with some power greater than yourself. That's got to be a big part of success.
- [50:55]
Miranda Devine
Yes.
- [50:56]
Larry Kudlow
That's got to be a big part of success. Has to be. I'm, I, I'm never, I might, I've written a couple books. I might have a third in me, but, but it won't be a book about policy. It'd be more a book about, I.
- [51:11]
Miranda Devine
Think they, you know, Donald Trump, just write about Trump. Well, you know him well.
- [51:16]
Larry Kudlow
I do, I do. And by the way, love the guy. It's funny, after he got shot, I, I, I, I always say to him, my favorite president, no one loves you more than I do. Says a lot.
- [51:32]
Miranda Devine
Because you worked for Reagan.
- [51:33]
Larry Kudlow
I, yes. And I was, you know, that was fabulous. But this was different. The Trump thing is completely different. I got to him finally Monday afternoon after he was shot. And I said, I said, I won't. I don't believe you're okay until you tell me you're okay. And he said. I said, no one loves you. He said, no one loves you more than I do. He said it has nothing to do with jobs or pecking orders or anything. It's a bond that we've had for many, many years, and I. I love that bond.
- [52:05]
Miranda Devine
He's a very generous spirit.
- [52:07]
Larry Kudlow
He is. People don't see that side of him. He looks after people.
- [52:12]
Miranda Devine
Yes.
- [52:12]
Larry Kudlow
He looks hospitable to people.
- [52:14]
Miranda Devine
Yeah.
- [52:15]
Larry Kudlow
And you know what? He's also a very forgiving man. You can be in penalty box, but he'll bring you out of the penalty box. Like Elon.
- [52:27]
Miranda Devine
Elon. He's bringing out. He said something very nice about him the other day.
- [52:31]
Larry Kudlow
Yes. I'm not surprised. I've seen many instances of that. But if I write another book, it'll be more cultural, personal, faith based. Yeah, Policy. Policy is lovely. But, you know, I will just say this. You're a brilliant woman yourself, and a lot of people will see this podcast or hear it or something. It is a miracle that we're sitting down and you're interviewing me. For me, it is a miracle. That's all I'll say.
- [53:19]
Miranda Devine
Because you're here and you conquered. I can't say conquered. But you've kept on keeping on, and you're now an inspiration to everybody, I think. I mean, you've made a big difference.
- [53:32]
Larry Kudlow
It's just a miracle. It is providential and it is a miracle.
- [53:36]
Miranda Devine
Thank you. Larry Kudlow. Great to be with you.
- [53:38]
Larry Kudlow
Thank you.
- [53:39]
Miranda Devine
Appreciate your time. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back with more Hit the Like and subscribe. Subscribe button so you don't miss any future episodes of Pod Force One.
- [53:54]
Larry Kudlow
For a limited time at McDonald's, get a Big Mac Extra Value meal for $8. That means two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun, and medium fries. And a drink. We may need to change that jingle. Prices and participation may vary.