Loading summary
Transcript151 lines
- [00:02]
Miranda Devine
Welcome back to Pod Force One. I'm your host, Miranda Devine, and today I'm with the EPA Administrator, Lee Zeldin. He's on a mission to, in his words, right the wrongs of the previous administration. Lee Zeldin, thank you so much for speaking with us.
- [00:20]
Lee Zeldin
It's great to be with you.
- [00:21]
Miranda Devine
You've been incredibly busy. You've hit the ground running, and I think of you as one of the great warriors of the Trump administration. How's it been?
- [00:30]
Lee Zeldin
It's been great. The Trump mandate is big here at EPA because the American public, when they spoke last November, they were speaking about a lot of economic pain they were having. And they want an agency like the EPA to be cognizant of that economic pain, to do something about it, to apply common sense. And we inherited an agency that was choosing to suffocate the economy and regulate all sorts of industries out of existence. We have chosen to both protect the environment and grow the economy. We do not have to choose between the two and the American public demands it. So being able to come in on the policy side, to be able to deliver on so much of the Trump mandate, is an exciting opportunity to deliver for the American people. On the operational, operational side, we, we came into an agency that in 2024, on Mondays and Fridays only averaged about 5 to 8% attendance inside of this headquarters building.
- [01:31]
Miranda Devine
The, which is a beautiful, huge building.
- [01:33]
Lee Zeldin
It was, it's five buildings across two square city blocks where we are condensing our real estate footprint now to save taxpayer dollars and more like eliminating the EPA museum, which basically just about nobody went to. And the record high attendance day in 2024, we had 31% of the building occupied. So having people come back in Covidia, remote work rules ending to gain accountability and oversight over every dollar that goes out of the agency has been a top priority to have people productive and collaborating. On the operational side, it's. There's been a lot that we inherited that we needed to fix. And, and in the first 100 days, we have put so many of these wheels back on the bus.
- [02:20]
Miranda Devine
And you found the most incredible talk about waste, fraud and abuse. Tell us about this $20 billion climate slush fund which was funneling money to former or NGOs run by former Biden and Obama staffers, people like Stacey Abrams getting billions of dollars.
- [02:40]
Lee Zeldin
When I was going through the confirmation process, this video comes out, it was done through Project Veritas, but it was of a Biden EPA employee who was talking about how the agency was tossing Gold bars off the Titanic, rushing to get billions of dollars out the door before Inauguration Day. He was also talking about the desire to get themselves jobs at the recipient NGOs and these members of the Senate. It was coming from Senate Republicans who were saying, asking, demanding, if confirmed, would you please make it a top priority to quickly get to the bottom of it? Absolutely, was my response with great enthusiasm and eagerness. And our team quickly was able to trace down so much. Basically every time we overturned a rock, we found something under it that was either filled with self dealing and conflicts of interest, unqualified recipients, or reduced agency oversight. And When Democrats had one party rule in Washington D.C. they passed this bill called the Inflation Reduction act that had tens of billions of dollars to go out through epa. Well, EPA didn't know how to spend tens of billions of dollars, so they decided to park $20 billion at an outside bank and to have that bank send the money through eight pass through entities. All these NGOs pass through entities that were riddled with self dealing and conflicts of interest. Former Obama and Biden officials, Democratic donors, as you pointed out. And the EPA was a party to the account control agreement with those prime recipients. But here's the thing. When the money goes through the prime recipients to others, in many cases also pass throughs, EPA no longer is a party of the account control agreement. EPA is a losing oversight by design. Intentionally, these grant agreements, these arrangements were set up to tie EPA's hands behind its back. I could sit here with you, you can ask me 10, 15, 20 of the first most important questions that come to mind as far as where the money was going after it leaves to pass through entities. And, and the crazy thing is how little I would be able to answer even today, this far after Inauguration Day. That is by design. The DOJ has been investigating, the Inspector General's office has been investigating. I terminated all of it.
- [05:12]
Miranda Devine
Is there any way of getting the money back?
- [05:13]
Lee Zeldin
Absolutely, yes. This has been going through a litigation process. It's set in an appeals court right now in the federal court system. And we are, we are basically at the end of a closeout period now because when these grants get terminated, there's a 120 day closeout period and this money should be recovered for the American public. And I'm proud to be able to do my part with this great team here to figure out one where the money went. They tossed the gold bars off the Titanic. I was told to go out and find the gold bars. We found the gold bars and we're bringing them back on board. And we're doing that for the American public, and we're proud of it.
- [05:54]
Miranda Devine
And are you able to, like, find out who the wrongdoers are and then prosecute them? Do you think the FBI will be able to get to the bottom of that?
- [06:03]
Lee Zeldin
DOJ and FBI would be the ones to answer any questions. As far as criminality, there was by far way too much waste and abuse as a systemic, programmatic issue where we had to take action quickly, which we were happy to do. Then the cases were referred to the Inspector General's office and the DOJ and FBI's office. And any update as far as their investigations, I would have to defer to them. But our burden on behalf of the American taxpayer isn't to prove every element of a criminal offense beyond a reasonable doubt. And many in the media want to say that there's no evidence.
- [06:46]
Interviewer/Producer
Yes.
- [06:47]
Lee Zeldin
Of any waste or abuse in. And then every time I provide more evidence of waste and abuse, they dig even deeper in saying there's no evidence of waste and abuse. I just want to give you an example of, you know, of a couple of updates.
- [07:03]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [07:03]
Lee Zeldin
You know, we were. We're digging Power Forward Communities. This is an NGO that you just referenced, tied to Stacey Abrams. This entity received $100 in 2023. The Biden EPA gave them $2 billion in 2024, put into their grant agreement a requirement that they needed to complete training called how to develop a budget within 90 days. So the Biden EPA said they didn't know how to develop a budget, and yet in that window, they were able to start spending down the balance, even though the Biden EPA figured that they needed more training. So this is Biden EPA reviewers. Quote, the salary structure for top officers seems high for nonprofit, or rather high enough that it merits some explanation. I'm wondering if this could be a problem with public perception. Many of the costs are just presented, but with little or no explanation as to why they are reasonable. They're paying their CEO $800,000 or COO 450,000. 22 people receiving over $150,000. And there's all different kinds of complaints. Concerns expressed by Biden EPA officials saying, quote, executive salaries appear excessive. Another added that, quote, senior management salaries are seemingly high without justification. Now, I could go through a thousand different examples of what I'm reading right now, and the deeper that I get, the more that the New York Times and Politico and the Washington Post will say there's no evidence. Well, what do you call everything that we're going through, I'll give you one other example. Appalachian Community Capital, One of the NGOs, they received $500 million in 2023. They had spent less than four and a half million. Another example of very small NGOs, very limited experience getting large sums of money. Well, a reviewer, a Biden EPA official, not a, not a Trump political appointee, a Biden official notes that Appalachian Community Capital Plan to use $215 million to finance 600 zero emission vehicles and $105 million to finance 700 charging stations for those at home doing the math. And this is a quote from the Biden EPA official. This is $358,333 per EV vehicle, the reviewer wrote, adding that $150,000 per charging station quote seems too high.
- [09:46]
Miranda Devine
You think?
- [09:46]
Lee Zeldin
Now if you said that you were going to challenge me to spend this entire interview to continue to go through additional examples of waste and abuse, I could actually sit here for the entire interview and just keep going through more of this.
- [10:03]
Miranda Devine
So why did the, I mean, I saw you had that fantastic joust with a New York Times reporter.
- [10:08]
Lee Zeldin
It's actually right here. Right where we're talking.
- [10:10]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [10:11]
Miranda Devine
And you're saying she's saying there's no evidence. And you said, did you actually read the judgment? And she said we read the judgment. Turned out she hadn't. But that was an example where you are not afraid to confront whether it's the media or Sheldon Whitehouse, Adam Schiff, these people in Congress who kind of talk over you and pretend that what you're saying, you're not saying. Just talk us through your mindset when it comes to just deciding that you're not gonna back down. Is that the New York boy in you?
- [10:45]
Lee Zeldin
Well, I mean, listen, the good news is that you can edit this out or bleep it out, but I think that the American public, they're fed up with the bullshit, Right. And they want people in government to fight for them to be a good steward of their tax dollars. And they don't want to get gaslit by congressional Democrats and members of the media like the New York Times and Washington Post and Politico to lie to them. The fact that they would dig in deeper in wanting to demand that we light billions of dollars on fire pisses off the American public. And they don't want us to just sit here and play nice and tolerate it. If we have the facts on our side, why should we have any amount of apology or regret for actions we're taking on behalf of the American taxpayer. So I'll give you one example. The the left will use this term called environmental justice, which if you define it in a particular way, you could get broad support if you want to argue that there are communities in America that have been left behind and they have environmental issues that need to be remediated. I don't know if you'll find anyone who disagrees with this, that point, but.
- [12:04]
Miranda Devine
Here'S the problem, Palestine or higher, for.
- [12:06]
Lee Zeldin
Instance, they're a great example. There are a bunch of areas across America that have environmental issues that need to get remediated. So in the name of environmental justice, in the name of that definition that I just described, there are people who will go to Congress to get a dollar appropriated. Now what are you going to do with that dollar? The conservative approach of what you should do with that dollar is to directly remediate that environmental issue that you spoke of to get that dollar appropriated. What was happening was the dollar was oftentimes going to some left wing activist group. And then that left wing activist group will be saying the next dollar that gets appropriated should get spent on remediating an environmental issue. Now I am not here saying I want to take money from a left wing activist group and give it to a right wing activist group. What I am saying is that if a dollar is appropriate to remediate an environmental issue, if dollar was spent in the name of environmental justice, and that's the definition of it, then the dollar should get spent directly on remediating the environmental issue. Now, in some cases, some of the environmental justice grants that we canceled, there would be money that would go to an activist group. They would spend the money on training another activist group to come active to advocate to Washington for money to that activist group to go out and be activists. So now just think through how that dollar is getting spent. Instead of the dollar getting spent on remediating the environmental issue, it was a dollar to an activist group to train another activist group to advocate for money for them to be activists. One of the grants New York Post has covered is this $50 million that went to a group called Climate Justice Alliance. And the Climate justice alliance says that climate justice runs through a free Palestine. If you ask the average American where $50 million should get spent in the name of climate justice or environmental justice, however the left is defining it, the average American would say, I don't think that the money should go towards a group that's saying that climate justice is achieved through a free Palestine. So it's just, it's just really important to us personally to fight on behalf of taxpayers as if every single dollar was our own. And I think too often in this town, when someone comes up with an idea of how to save $10,000, people are like, Nah, it's only $10,000. It's not worth it. Yeah, it is. Whether it's a hundred thousand dollars, a million dollars, a billion dollars. There are people in this town who say, well, it's. It's only a million dollars. It's only a billion dollars. Say like a billion dollars is only 0.003% of. And they'll give some larger number. Well, that's a billion dollars. Our annual operating budget here at EPA is about $10 billion billion. In my first 100 days as administrator, we canceled over $22 billion worth of grants.
- [15:17]
Interviewer/Producer
Wow.
- [15:17]
Lee Zeldin
And we're proud of it.
- [15:18]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [15:19]
Miranda Devine
Good on you. And I mean, the staff of the EPA, I think something like 99% donated to Kamala Harris in the 24 presidential campaign. How has it been trying to come into this organization that's so heavily Democrat focused?
- [15:35]
Lee Zeldin
We are going to follow our obligations under the law. We inherited an agency that, as I pointed out during the Biden administration, made a whole lot of bad decisions. Now there are some inside the agency who feel like when the Biden EPA gets a new rule over the finish line, if they make a decision on anything, that it should be treated as etched in stone. It's a new 11th Commandment. It's gold that is untouchable. That's not how it works. See, if you want something to be durable, go down the street to Congress and try to change the law. But inside of an agency, when an administration comes in and they come in with their own policy priorities, that agency is going to, in the case of the Biden administration, use their powers to try to suffocate entire industries out of existence. Now, we're not going to come in here and treat all of these decisions and trillions of dollars of regulation and extreme economic pain and a lack of common sense and say it's all etched in stone because the Biden EPA did it. So therefore it's perfect and it should be here forever. If you feel like your idea was that good, go down the street and try to change the law. But here, what we're going to do is heed the demands of the American public where they want to be able to afford to heat their home, they want to be able to afford a car. People working these jobs that the Biden EPA was working to put out of business we're going to try to keep these companies and industries thriving. We will choose to protect the environment and grow the economy, as I pointed out earlier. Now, here's the good news. Since I came in, I would say a large majority of the people I have come in contact with and I meet with career staff every day, a large majority of the people I meet with get it. Like sometimes if you want to spend 20, 30, 40 years in the federal agency, sometimes your candidate will win an election, sometimes it won't, Sometimes they won't. And I mean, my background is the DoD. I just retired from the military after 22 years. I signed up to ROTC when Bill Clinton was president, president and commander in chief. And every single time, whether it was Clinton, Bush, Obama, Trump won Biden. That person as a member of the military was my commander in chief. And I will follow all of their lawful orders as the person who's head of that chain of command. Well, in an agency like epa, a lot of people get that there is this pendulum that will swing and a lot of these regulations, from Obama to Trump one to Biden to Trump, too, they're going to swing because of how far the left went to try to test their powers. Well, Supreme Court weighed in in a decision called Loper Bright and they overturned what's called the Chevron doctrine. And essentially they're telling agencies that where there is some vague language in law, an agency can't just try to write its own law, say whatever it's, whatever it wish, do whatever it wishes with that vague language in law. The Supreme Court really frowns upon that. Well, we're going to come in and we're going to get it right. We're trying to fix as much as we can and we're going to try to do it all in the first year or so of us being here because the American public demands it. So most of the agency understands that this is what should be expected. They under they understand that the American public spoke last November. President Trump is the president. We are here to implement policies and that regulations will get reconsidered.
- [19:34]
Mike Emanuel
From around the world, Trey Yingst joining us from Tel Aviv, Israel to Washington. I'm Mike Emanuel. To your own backyard. If a story impacts you or your wallet, we're on it. It's the FOX NEWS rundown. We give every story the deeper look it deserves with must listen interviews and smart analysis from the voices you can trust. Start your day with a FOX News rundown. Listen and follow now@foxnewsrundown.com or wherever you get Your favorite podcasts.
- [20:03]
Miranda Devine
And I guess, I mean, the EPA under Biden and also under Obama was really focused mainly on climate change change. And when Donald Trump came in, he pulled us out of the Paris Climate Accord. And you are now, it seems, trying to orient the agency more towards clean air, clean water, what the average American would think of as pollution as environmental causes rather than some airy, fairy idea of climate. Is that. Is that a correct reading of what you're doing?
- [20:39]
Lee Zeldin
The first pillar of powering the great American comeback at the Trump EPA is clean air, land and water for all Americans. President Trump has often spoke about, spoken about it as a top priority of his. So therefore, it's a top priority of ours. On the 100th day of President Trump's time in office, we put out a press release that was talking about 100 environmental actions that the Trump EPA took in the first 100 days of this Trump term in office. And we're very proud of that press release. And it was decisions that we made, everything from responding to the L A wildfires to water quality standards in southeast Pennsylvania and so much more. Removing contaminated soil. The list goes on. We're proud of this effort. Clean air, land and water for all Americans. Now, the Biden epa, as I pointed out, would say you can only protect the environment. It's impossible to protect the environment without destroying the economy. It's a wild concept that we don't accept.
- [21:44]
Miranda Devine
You mean by like stopping drilling in. In Alaska in place?
- [21:48]
Lee Zeldin
Yeah. And they were trying to close down all sorts of different baseload power. And you have many who talk about, many on the left who talk about wind, for example, which is an intermittent source of energy, as if that is the substitute we've been waiting for for baseload power. Well, I want to see America become the capital of the world. President Trump has been working hard to make America the AI capital of the world.
- [22:14]
Miranda Devine
But you need a lot of energy for that.
- [22:15]
Lee Zeldin
You need a lot of energy for that. And you can't be suffocating all that baseload power and then saying, yeah, we're just going to base load, as in coal, mainly, and coal and gas and, and nuclear. And there are so many different forms of baseload power in this country. And President Trump wants to build new pipelines. You know, I came from a state, I'm still a New Yorker, where there, there have been decisions where they won't allow the safe extraction of natural gas, they won't allow gas hookups on new construction, they want to ban the power, the sale of gas powered vehicles. They have these climate goals, these dates that will not get met.
- [22:54]
Interviewer/Producer
Yes.
- [22:54]
Lee Zeldin
But in trying to meet some of these dates, they'll cause extreme pain for people who can least afford it and they won't approve new pipelines. You add up all of these different decisions in a state like New York and you start doing the math and thinking, well, what's the consequences if this was actually the philosophy that was governing energy for this entire country? And thank God that it's not more of an issue that you don't have other states tripping over themselves to try to replicate this race to the bottom between New York and California. So we want to reverse that.
- [23:28]
Miranda Devine
I mean, speaking of New York, we're all very sad that you didn't win the governor's race. You came so close to beating Kathy hochul back in 22. I think you were with the. I mean, no Republican has come as close in decades. So our loss, your gain, I guess, in the end. But what do you think of Zoram Mamdani, the socialist that's just been elected in the Democratic primary anyway, to be their mayoral candidate puts him in the box seat to be New York's mayor. I mean, how is that going to affect New Yorkers?
- [24:07]
Lee Zeldin
I've been long concerned about the direction of New York City. And New York City is such an amazing city, like globally. If you were to rank the greatest cities on the planet, I'm biased. I would want New York to be competing for the title of number one on the planet.
- [24:25]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [24:26]
Lee Zeldin
And there's a lot to work with to be able to hit it. It's not some pipe dream.
- [24:29]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [24:30]
Lee Zeldin
It's not. It's not impossible. And now when Rudy Giuliani was elected in 1993 as mayor, a lot of people had given up on New York City. They'd given up on it financially as far as crime and public safety. A lot of people thought New York City was lost. And it was amazing how quickly it was able to turn. And unfortunately, in this moment for New York City, while they have this great opportunity to turn things around in a very positive way, they're leaving so many opportunities off the table. I remember when Bill de Blasio got elected mayor in 2013. I was in New York State Senate at the time, and he ran on a campaign of raise taxes on the wealthy and universal childhood pre K. And he was going to raise taxes on the wealthy in order to pay for universal childhood pre K. Now he gets elected. He's sworn in. It's January of 2014. He's going to Albany. He wants his money. He wants his tax increase. Well, I kind of saw this coming from a mile away. What the state legislature under then Governor Andrew Cuomo ended up doing was coming up with the money to provide universal childhood pre K money that New York City was looking for. When Andrew Cuomo broke the news to de Blasio, at least this is the story, as Cuomo told a few of us, when Cuomo broke the news to de Blasio, hey, great news. We have your money for universal childhood pre K. The answer, I'm told, is that de Blasio says that's not good enough. He wanted his tax increase. Now, if you think about what does that mean, that means that the tax increase was tapping into the resentment that, that some voters have towards success, that they wanted a punitive measure, they wanted to punish the wealthy. And it doesn't matter where the money was going to go, because in this case, the money was going to go for universal childhood pre K. If there was a way to pay for universal childhood pre K without a tax increase, they still want their tax increase. Well, that was 12 years ago. And it's not like New York City has learned all of its lessons along the way, because every time you hit that breaking point for one more New Yorker, especially now that they're more mobile than ever and post Covid, a lot of these billionaires are leaving New York City for good, and many are bringing their businesses with them. And they're not putting New York City in timeout. They're not saying, hey, if you don't get this right in the next six months, then I might not come back. Or if you don't, you know, I'm going to give you five years to fix it. If you fix it, I'll come back. These people are gone.
- [27:04]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [27:05]
Lee Zeldin
And they pay a lot of money in taxes. So New York City is. Has not been heading in the right direction. And right now, unfortunately, it looks like they're not determined to say to themselves that they've hit rock bottom and they want to build back up. Because we're having this conversation here inside of EPA headquarters. And as administrator of epa, I am choosing my words carefully because I understand what I'm allowed to speak about and not. So there's some very candid thoughts for maybe not having this hat on and not being inside of this building. All I would say to American voters, whether you're in New York City, New York State, or anywhere else in America, is this is a reminder how important it is to Participate in a process to get informed, to make your vote count. And I remember when I was on active duty, it was in Fort Bragg. I was a paratrooper. And you had a moment where you had to jump out of that plane at that moment. And if you don't get out with a proper handoff of your static line of the jump master, someone's going to get hurt. And it's probably not going to be you, by the way. It's going to be the person behind you or someone who's trying to get out the door on the other side of the plane. There is a reliance by Americans who care that other Americans are going to participate. And you're really not just letting yourselves down and your family down, your community down when you sit it out. But this is maybe the greatest right, privilege, honor, about being able to live in a country like the United States is cast when you have that moment to speak your voice through your vote and to get informed. And it's just really frustrating as an American, as, as a New Yorker, as a, as a military veteran to see people sit these out. And we really need more people to participate.
- [28:55]
Miranda Devine
And now I think what a lot of people wouldn't know about you is that you were a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne. I mean, I guess what similarity is there between parachuting into a war zone in Iraq, where you were on deployment back in 2006, and parachuting into the EPA? As a Republican among Democrats, I would.
- [29:17]
Lee Zeldin
Say that a lot of the leadership traits that I learned in the military relate to leadership experience outside of the military. And I came into this agency with 15, 16,000 employees. The number is less now than it was when we came in. We've terminated some probationary employees. We had voluntary early retirement, fork in the road. Many. There are reductions in force and reorganizations operationally. There's a lot that we've been doing to try to right size the agency. And with all due respect to every single amazing employee, whether it's here or anywhere else in government, anywhere. My goal here at EPA is that we don't have one more person than what we need in order to fulfill all our statutory obligations and fulfill our core mission, empower the great American comeback. The A lot of what I learned inside of the military relates here. I wore around my dog tags seven army values to the acronyms. Leadership, loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage. I have had an opportunity to see a lot of different types of leaders and traits that you admire or not. For one, I Very much value, consistency. It's important to be able to communicate, to have respect, to solicit feedback up and down the ranks. Some of the best ideas we've gotten for cost savings have come from some of the most junior members of the agency. And I remember as a junior officer at the Department of Defense, I probably had some of the best ideas and my peers had some of the best ideas about the Department of Defense can save money. So there's a lot, I think, that does cross over between the military and experience and training.
- [31:06]
Miranda Devine
So you went into the ROTC quite early. Didn't you tell us why that was?
- [31:11]
Lee Zeldin
The only thing that I knew for sure when I was showing up at college was that I needed to go find the ROTC table and sign up right away. And I remember, I still remember the first time I put on the uniform and put on those boots and I'm looking in the mirror, I had to pinch myself. And I instantly was thinking about the greatest generation. That generation has always fascinated me. For me, I was born in 1980 and it was my grandparents generation at the time. And many of them were still around sharing their stories. And I loved being around them and just the amount of combat and experience that they had to live through to try to wear the same boots that they wore, to try to challenge myself to wear the same uniform that they wore was just the coolest challenge in life. And there's nothing that I could possibly do in my life that can compare to trying to wear that same uniform that they wore. And I remember looking at that army patch smiling back at me in the mirror. I knew that that was the right decision. The ROTC program was really good in helping identify strengths and weaknesses and, and you get a lot of different leadership advice from people you come across. I remember when I was a young ROTC cadet, a few of us were speaking to the staff sergeant, looking for advice. Okay, we're a young platoon leader and we have a bunch of young privates and specialists and corporals, and we want to know how to lead them, give us advice. And he thought about it for a second. He said, drive a nice car, chew tobacco, smoke them on their PT test. And we're like, they're writing notes like, you know, this is just some brilliant advice that we're getting. Okay, got it. We'll do these three things. We'll be great platoon leaders. When I became, when I got on active duty, I had a three principled lesson passed off to me that I think was a little bit more helpful. With all due respect, to that Staff sergeant, it came from a Colonel David Petraeus at the time. Work hard, play hard, take care of your people. Love the one you're with. And the captain who is in charge of our class, this was the Military Intelligence Officer Basic course at Fort Huachuca, Arizona. He helped us during the four or five, five and a half months, whatever it was, of that training course to understand what each of those three really meant, to appreciate it, and to help us more deeply understand what those seven army values mean and to help develop our own individual leadership style and to make us stronger.
- [34:02]
Miranda Devine
And, and the context was September 11, 2001. I mean, you were 21 years old.
- [34:08]
Lee Zeldin
So I was in ROTC at the time. I was in law school, and I wasn't commissioned until I graduated law school in May of 2003. 3. So I had to wait almost two years. And I, I remember having a tremendous amount of guilt that I couldn't just instant, like I had to wait until I was commissioned. Right. And I remember as soon as I got on active duty and I was at Fort Huachuca going through this military Intelligence basic course, and I just wanted to deploy and, and I, I remember when I got called into an office. The Deputy Staff Judge Advocate of Fort Huachucas is telling me that I'm getting switched over to, at my request. And he was a former. A 2nd Airborne Division paratrooper, that I was getting switched over the 2nd Airborne Division. And I just couldn't wait to go. And I was at division headquarters and I was at 2nd Brigade, and I deployed with one of the battalions of 2nd Brigade. And it's a generational thing. I mean, I'm 45 years old, so just about half of my life is pre 9 11. Just about half of my life is post 9 11. Basically my entire adult life is post 9 11. And it's all that I've known. And I would say it's informed the way that my mind is wrapped around foreign policy, the way to measure national instruments of power, to make sure and understand that we are making the right decisions and how that's utilized. I've spent a lot of time analyzing military strategy, and it's just, it's amazing how much of that life experience can relate to. To being a leader in something that has nothing to do with the military. And I feel like I could, you know, go out and do, you know, 100 other jobs that had nothing to do with the military. They have nothing to do with national defense, homeland security, and, and to be able to apply these lessons but yeah, 9, 11. Especially as a New Yorker, yes, it left an impression that changed my life. It changed the world.
- [36:19]
Miranda Devine
You were jumping out of airplanes with a parachute on. Just describe that feeling. I mean, that takes a lot of personal physical courage, I guess, just to make that initial leap. So what was the first one like?
- [36:32]
Lee Zeldin
I'll share a story. That is such a great question. At number no one's ever asked me. And I was at Fort Benning, Georgia. It's my first jump out of an airplane, and there's 10 of us in the stick, and I was the 10th person to go out. And I get out the plane, and I, I mean, I have no idea what's about to happen.
- [36:49]
Miranda Devine
I mean, were you scared?
- [36:50]
Lee Zeldin
I had an idea. I, I, I, I had so many emotions. I don't even know which one, you know, I would say ruled the day. To, to answer is like, this is the emotion that wins. I think maybe I was experiencing every emotion, but it's, you know, it's quite possible that excitement might have been overpowering. Yeah, but it was a lot of adrenaline.
- [37:13]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [37:13]
Lee Zeldin
So I get out of the plane, parachute opens. It's a good sign because that was, that was the first thing was just, just getting to that point where the, the parachute's open. And then I could kind of look around, look down.
- [37:27]
Miranda Devine
Fl.
- [37:28]
Lee Zeldin
First thing I wanted to look up and just make sure no holes. We're good. So shoots open. I look down, and I see the other nine way below me. And they're starting to land on a drop zone. And I look straight ahead, and I see the plane at altitude. And then I look down again, and the drop zone is over here. And I'm going to over the trees. Oh, and apparently there was some type of, like a heat pocket or, you know, there's something in the chute that was preventing the chute from, you know, allowing me to drop. Instead, I'm just maintaining altitude. So I have four risers. What I had to do was collapse my chute. Oh, it's my first jump.
- [38:16]
Miranda Devine
Wow.
- [38:17]
Lee Zeldin
I have to collapse one of my shoots, one of my risers.
- [38:20]
Miranda Devine
Did you know you figured that out yourself?
- [38:21]
Lee Zeldin
Well, they, they did say that if you have to move with the chute, if you collapse the, if you collapse a riser, you will go. And it'll be, you know, a brief free fall, and you'll go in that direction of where you collapse the shoot. So I pick the riser that is closest to the drop zone, and I collapse it, and then I lift it up, and I look Down. I'm still over the trees, but I'm closer. I had to collapse it three times.
- [38:48]
Miranda Devine
Wow.
- [38:49]
Lee Zeldin
And eventually I'm over the drop zone. I land and I remember the, the jump master yelling like, what took you so long? Because like the rest of the stick, like their shoot was all packed. They're all, I was like, where the heck did the 10th guy go? And I was, I, I was outranked by the private. I was an ROTC cadet at, for, at Fort Bennington. How were we? I was 20. This is 2000. So I survived my first jump, but that was my experience. And I remember my last jump when I was at Fort Bragg. It was a beautiful North Carolina night. It was a night job and we were landing with equipment. So you drop the pouch. It's, it was a soft pouch and it would land maybe 20ft away from you. Well, that night I did a rear parachute landing fall. When you do a parachute landing fall, you could go in a bunch of different directions just depending on which way you're dropping. In this, in this case, I'm going backwards. So I do a rear parachute landing fall, which is fine, like walking backwards as you falling backwards. Yeah. And it's, it's the base of your feet, your calf, it's, you know, the top of your leg, your butt, just, just under your armpit. And you do a fall that you train to do, which is a safe way to land because the shoot, this shoot is designed not to land standing up. The shoot is designed to get you down as quickly as possible without killing yourself.
- [40:16]
Interviewer/Producer
Right.
- [40:17]
Lee Zeldin
And the way I ended up landing, going backwards, my head hits my pack, which is fine. It was a soft pack. Right. And I'm on my back and it was just this perfect North Carolina night. And I'm looking up at the stars. And I knew it was my last jump on active duty. And I said to myself, I don't know if I'm ever going to jump out of an airplane ever again. Man. I, I, I, I had seen so many other people have bad encounter. I, I don't want to say anything that would talk anyone out of, you know, joining as a parat trooper was a great experience and I would sign up again. I'm crazy enough to do that again. But I was really happy that I didn't suffer any, any bad injuries like some of the, the others had gone through. But I remember when I hit that drop zone at night and that point. Now I'm married with two kids. Right.
- [41:02]
Miranda Devine
Changes your perspective.
- [41:03]
Lee Zeldin
Yeah, my perspective change when you're when you're single as a 20 year old going out the back of a plane, it, nothing, nothing about it makes any sense, but you're not overthinking it.
- [41:13]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [41:13]
Lee Zeldin
When you're married with kids and you're walking out the plane or, you know, you're like, okay, Diana, Ariana. Diana Michaela. Ariana, Jump master and jump out of the, the plane. We've done it with, you know, with foreign countries. So they're like giving me orders. I don't know language. They're, they're talking. I'm just following the person in front of me. Or, you know, jumping out of a Blackhawk where you're sitting there in a door and they tap the back of your helmet. And as a New Yorker, you know, we'd want to turn around and give them a hard time like, who you hitting? But instead in that situation, they tap you in the back of the helmet. It's like, okay. And you push yourself off the side. You know, it doesn't make, it doesn't make much sense, but it was a really enjoyable experience. And, and I love the military. When I was, because I had just retired a couple months ago.
- [41:59]
Interviewer/Producer
Right.
- [42:00]
Miranda Devine
And because you were in reserves.
- [42:01]
Lee Zeldin
I was. So I did active duty. 03 to 07. Reserve since 07. So I was at the, the military parade that was here in the capital, celebrate the Army's 250th birthday, which was also Flag Day, which was also President Trump's birthday, but it was a 250th birthday of the United States Army. And I'm coming off of the grandstand with the Secretary of Defense, Pete exit. And I turned to Pete, I said, so Pete, that was awesome. I, I regret getting out of the military. Signed me back up. And he looks at me and he's, he's dead serious. He's like, I could change that. I could get you right back in. And I was like, okay. And then we just kept walking. I didn't run with it, just there because I think I was happy. It was about time for me to retire after 22 years. But in a brief moment there during that great military parade, Washington.
- [42:49]
Miranda Devine
That was an awesome parade.
- [42:50]
Lee Zeldin
I was ready to, to sign back up.
- [42:52]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [42:55]
Miranda Devine
Now you were in Iraq and you were doing some pretty heavy duty, beating down doors and so on. Tell us a little about that.
- [43:04]
Lee Zeldin
So I was in Iraq. I got there summer of 2006. This was a rough time. Pre search. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you're, you remember the situation there in 06. Every day we'd have the battle update brief and there'd be a map of Iraq on the board and it'd be a red dot for every instance of rape, murder, intimidation that was reported for that day. And at that point, this map of Iraq, every day, every battle update brief was loaded up with red dots. It was a, it was a rough time. Our unit, so it was a, it was infantry battalion from the 82nd doing a very heavy detainee ops mission and we were getting sent into areas where the, for the U. S. Military hadn't been in a while and we would go after high value targets. And in some cases it would be like a CSI Miami mission where you're showing up at a village, you're going for a person, but you don't want to just leave with the person. You also want to collect as much evidence. And that evidence might include a SIM card from a cell phone which is, is being hidden inside of the bra of the sister in law.
- [44:21]
Miranda Devine
Wow.
- [44:22]
Lee Zeldin
And you know, this infantry battalion, which is, you know, they're trained to kick down doors.
- [44:27]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [44:28]
Lee Zeldin
Now have to learn a lot about culture. How do you conduct those searches? There's a difference between palms in and palms out. There's a difference between, you know, having them lie on the ground or, you know, allowing them to sit or stand and like how, how you interact and, and if you're searching that female to do it in the presence of a senior male member of the household. And so part of, part of my mission was with regards to that advice, just like because you were cultural, you're a lawyer. And the detainee ops mission, I was a legal advisor for, for this battalion. And you're helping with the evidence collection because if you, if you grab someone but you just send them up without any of the evidence, then they may end up having to get released pretty quickly. It's the evidence that would allow us to keep that person in detainment. And then also at times there were our service members who were killed on operations or seriously wounded and there would be an Article 156 investigation that would be done, which is really important for the military, lessons learned, but most importantly, in my opinion, foreclosure for the families so that they know what happened to their loved one who had passed away. And so yeah, we were there pre surge and things really changed once, you know, general Petraeus was put in charge. The surge strategy, in my opinion worked. Yeah, I think ultimately the way that the exit was, then the final exit was pulled off by president Obama, was filled with mistakes and there's plenty to criticize of mistakes throughout this entire timeline, but it ended up leading us to having to put more troops back into Iraq.
- [46:23]
Miranda Devine
And isis. The rise of isis.
- [46:25]
Lee Zeldin
The JV Squad.
- [46:26]
Miranda Devine
The JV Squad, yeah. And now while you were in Iraq, you got some alarming news from home. Your wife Diana, went into premature Labor, I think 22 weeks with your twins. Tell us what happened.
- [46:42]
Lee Zeldin
Yeah. Red Cross message came out. And Diana went to labor in her 22nd week, as you said. And the Red Cross message was. Was expressing concern that these babies aren't going to make it because they were still short of that week of viability.
- [47:00]
Miranda Devine
24.
- [47:00]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [47:01]
Lee Zeldin
Right. So I remember. I'll just be. I'll be candid. You could bleep me out when I'm done, but I'll just tell you exactly what. What happened. I remember having a conversation with the. The xo because they wanted to send me back to mourn the loss of. Of my girls. And we were about to go out on a mission and. And I told the xo, and it was like this sense of guilt about going back, even. Even for this purpose. Like, I was torn. How old was I? I guess I was about 26 at the time. And I said, I, you know, I feel like a shitbag to go back to New York, to go back to the United States for. For this purpose. And he was a father, and without missing a B says you should feel like a shitbag if you don't go back. And I thought about it for a second, like, you're absolutely right. And that was the candid, raw conversation that went back and forth between the XO and I. And I was getting sent home for a week for the purpose of mourning the loss of the girls.
- [48:10]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [48:11]
Lee Zeldin
And the doctors at Georgetown University Hospital here in Washington, D.C. kept the babies in Diana for three weeks, so they weren't born until the 25th week. And now they're past that point of viability. They were about a pound and a half, and they went through a lot. Both Ariana, Michaela had lung surgery and intestinal surgery. Michaela went into septic shock, which had an 80 to 90% mortality rate. While she was in septic shock, she had a stroke. She was two pounds, carrying an extra pound of fluid.
- [48:45]
Interviewer/Producer
Wow.
- [48:46]
Lee Zeldin
And the doctors sat Diane and I down and recommended that we discontinue treatment and let her go. And they said that if she survives, she won't be able to see, walk, talk, and she'll have cerebral palsy. Like, they were laying it on thick. They weren't saying that, you know, there's some minor chance or there's a chance. They were very concerned that even if she survives that there's going to be all sorts of severe long term consequences. And for a period of about 24 hours leading up to this conversation with the doctor, Michaela wasn't getting any better, but she wasn't getting any worse. So I decided, Diana decided that she's clear. Michaela's clearly fighting, so she's going to be fighting. We're going to fight too. So we want to know what our other options were, were. And we elected to do this very risky brain surgery. So two pound baby carrying an extra pound of fluid, going through septic shock and a stroke and now she's gonna get brain surgery. And Diana and I go up to the incubator, we say goodbye, we don't know or expect, we can only hope, pray that we'll be able to see her again. And we go back to the waiting room and the doctor ends up coming out after surgery and said Mikayla's not out of the woods yet. But things went better than expected. I remember Diana and I high fiving each other. We were thrilled, overjoyed by that news. And Michaela ends up with a hole. The left side of her brain. One third of it was a hole.
- [50:16]
Miranda Devine
Wow.
- [50:17]
Lee Zeldin
Except because she was only 27 weeks along at that point. The brain was still developing. The brain recircuited itself around the hole.
- [50:27]
Miranda Devine
Amazing.
- [50:28]
Lee Zeldin
So she survives, she is able to see, walk, talk, and she doesn't have cerebral palsy.
- [50:33]
Miranda Devine
She's fantastic. I've met her.
- [50:34]
Lee Zeldin
Yeah, she's.
- [50:35]
Miranda Devine
You would never know.
- [50:36]
Lee Zeldin
She is in college, about to start her second year and she's doing great. She's got great grades in grade school, she's getting great grades in college. She's doing amazingly. Both Michaela and Ariana and we accepted prayers in probably about 16 different religions. I hope you know that's okay. I mean, there's some religions out there that, you know, like, they only believe that you can accept prayer. And one, we took them all.
- [51:02]
Miranda Devine
And because you're Jewish and Diana, your wife is Mormon.
- [51:06]
Lee Zeldin
Right. So we had it all.
- [51:07]
Miranda Devine
How did that work?
- [51:09]
Lee Zeldin
It just worked.
- [51:10]
Interviewer/Producer
Right?
- [51:10]
Lee Zeldin
You know, it's, it's hard to explain. You know, the girls, you know, they went to Hebrew school, they had their Benoit Mitzvah. It just worked for Diane and I. We made it work. We made it work for the family and it was, it wasn't ever an issue. But yeah, the, the power of prayer, the miracles of Modern medicine, and most importantly, maybe their will to live. I mean, they just. They fought, fought, fought, and. And they're doing great now. And.
- [51:38]
Miranda Devine
And did that deepen your faith?
- [51:40]
Lee Zeldin
Oh, big time. I th. Those three and a half months felt like 18 and a half years. So these girls are now about to turn 19, but their first three and a half months felt like eighteen and a half years. So, you know, through the years, people would always say, oh, those kids that grow up so fast. And it never felt that way for Diana and I because of how long those first three and a half months were.
- [52:06]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [52:07]
Lee Zeldin
And then when they got out of the nicu, they were still small. Small. They were on heart monitors. 12 medicines each. That first year.
- [52:15]
Miranda Devine
Wow.
- [52:15]
Lee Zeldin
Felt like, you know, another 10 years on top of it. So they've been through a lot. They went through more than I. I would likely go through my entire lifetime.
- [52:27]
Miranda Devine
How did it affect your views on abortion, seeing that they were, I mean.
- [52:31]
Lee Zeldin
At an age trimester?
- [52:32]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [52:32]
Lee Zeldin
Yeah. These girls, thank God they had the ability to live, to survive, to thrive. I've had an opportunity to see life in the second trimester, and it was beautiful. My favorite picture in the world is a photo with one of my daughters. It's a black and white photo, and her entire hand is smaller than the top one third of my finger.
- [52:58]
Interviewer/Producer
Right.
- [52:59]
Miranda Devine
Wow.
- [52:59]
Lee Zeldin
And that. That photo and some of those other photos of them when they were that young, they. They really give you a perspective on life that. I mean, you could see pictures of babies that are strangers, but, you know, when it. When it's your own and you're going through it like that, I mean, I would not wish the NICU experience on anyone. And thankfully for the doctors and nurses at Georgetown University, they did an amazing.
- [53:26]
Miranda Devine
Job with mc Caitlin, Ariana, and you and Diana. I mean, that would have strengthened your relationship no end. How did you guys meet?
- [53:36]
Lee Zeldin
We met in Washington, D.C. actually, I was on active duty, and I was in D.C. for a military wedding, and we crossed paths after the wedding, and my friends challenged me to strike up a conversation with her calling me names that I won't repeat, even though you complete me out. And Diane and I, you know, we. We hit it off. We had a great conversation that first time. And I remember my friends, who, again, were also in uniform, coming up and telling her about how I saved their lives in Iraq and a bunch of other innocent women and children from a burning village.
- [54:17]
Miranda Devine
Oh, really?
- [54:18]
Lee Zeldin
Are you.
- [54:18]
Miranda Devine
You buried?
- [54:20]
Lee Zeldin
I had never been deployed.
- [54:21]
Miranda Devine
All right.
- [54:22]
Lee Zeldin
That my friends were completely making that up to be Good wingmen. And yeah, I don't know if I, I think the way the story was expressed, Diana wouldn't have bought it anyway, but it was, it was a good wingman line for, by the way, anyone out there who's trying to figure out how to assist your friend when, when they need it, in that moment of having the courage to strike up a conversation with, with someone else. Yeah. Diana and I met here in Washington, D.C. she was working in D.C. she grew up actually just outside of D.C. d.C. And Maryland. And thank God we crossed paths.
- [54:56]
Miranda Devine
And then you moved back to your hometown in Long island, and you still live in a house there. Tell us just a little bit, just before we finish, about your upbringing. I know your parents, your stepparents, and your, your dad are all in some form of kind of law enforcement, and your dad was a fraud investigator, wasn't he? Which, which is interesting that you've come full circle now.
- [55:21]
Lee Zeldin
Yeah, I was born and raised on Long Island.
- [55:23]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [55:24]
Lee Zeldin
My parents were divorced and remarried very early in life, so I grew up. I was the only child with four parents.
- [55:31]
Miranda Devine
Right. How old were you when they divorced?
- [55:34]
Lee Zeldin
Maybe about three. All right, so you can't even remember before then. And we had many in the family who celebrated Hanukkah and then some intermarried in, like, the family tree. So there was a celebration around Christmas where I would score some presents and then my birthday was a month later. So, you know, I was, I was gaming out the whole process. When, you know, the new Nintendo would come out, you would get, you know, the new entertainment system for Hanukkah for Christmas. You get all of the games you're eyeing, and then you'd have the power pad and the gloves and everything, all the other accessories for, for the birthday. And was able to work it. It was odd growing up as a, as an only child with four parents.
- [56:21]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [56:22]
Lee Zeldin
And with grandparents and great grandparents. It was a.
- [56:25]
Miranda Devine
What did that, what did that do to your personality? I mean, is that why you're very ambitious?
- [56:30]
Lee Zeldin
Well, you know, I'll say one thing that was pretty interesting about it was when there was friction which ended at some point during childhood.
- [56:40]
Interviewer/Producer
Yeah.
- [56:40]
Lee Zeldin
But when there was still friction there between, between parents, I kind of felt at like 5, 6, 7, 8 years old as, like a moderator or a referee. It's kind of hard to explain, but that might be. Have been my earliest lessons of politics and, you know, that, that like engagement and, and moderating and trying to work through conflict was right there at home. And I, I, all four of them had Great traits that I learned from, I felt growing up that I was always in a large way responsible for grooming and raising myself. I would try to observe, even from strangers, traits that I liked, traits that I didn't like, and then emulate what would work and stay away from what didn't work. But I was always very cognizant of of that growing up. Just always watching everything that was around me. I remember, you know, so you point out my father, he was on an undercover investigation, and I don't know how old I was at time. I had been 10, 11, 12. And we were at this eyeglass store on Long island. And he asked me to just sit down and at a seat and try to observe as much as I can observe of everything that was going on around the eyeglass store. So afterwards, we get out in the car and he brings out a piece of paper and he has me draw a map of like, everything that I can remember from inside the store. And I remember, like, what a kick he got out of the level of detail. Right. I, I, I put down every single row of how many glasses and like where there were glasses and where glasses were missing.
- [58:40]
Interviewer/Producer
Right.
- [58:40]
Lee Zeldin
It was. And then describing all the individuals and what they looked like, and he just looked back at me like, what is happening? I mean, I was, I was a little kid when, when it happened, I loved it. Real world, like, you know, sign me up. And, and that's why when I was, when I had to pick a branch in the military to go into coming out of rotc, going in the JAG Corps wasn't an option. I had to pick between other branches. And military intelligence was right up there towards the, the top. I just loved that, that particular challenge of it all. My stepfather was a New York state trooper. My stepmother was a probation officer. And then my mother, who was in security early, like when she met my father in the 70s, she ended up getting into teaching. So she was a retired teacher.
- [59:29]
Interviewer/Producer
Right.
- [59:30]
Miranda Devine
Now, just last question. What's your secret for success for anybody? Young people watching this, how do you get to where you are?
- [59:39]
Lee Zeldin
You know, it's hard to answer in just a couple words, but I'll try to do it anyway. And I'm choosing between a whole lot of different ideas, concepts, important qualities, traits that are needed. But if I had to pick one, I would say it's important to stay grounded. I have no ego. There's nothing that you or anyone in this building or in this country can say to me that can hurt my feelings, that can, you know, that can get me down. That could get under my skin like that will bruise my ego. I've heard it all. I went through, you know, 12 years in elected office, tough races for the House, the governor's races you mentioned earlier. We've seen a lot. And I think one of the biggest liabilities that people have while they are working through any type of a path in life is they get obsessed over titles other than the really important ones. Like, you know, husband, wife, brother, sister, father, mother. Like those titles matter administrator, secretary, those types of admin. You know, the titles that they might give you because you're a member of the president's cabinet. I. It does nothing to make my head any bigger. It does nothing to, you know, to lift my feet off of the ground. Every day I try to keep my make sure that my feet are more firmly planted than they were the day before. It's important to stay humble, stay grounded. Remember where you come from. Don't be full of yourself. Don't, don't ever forget where you come from. And again, there's so many other important life lessons. There are important values. There is that need to have an understanding of right from wrong in your gut. That's the best way to put position yourself to make those quick, instinctive right decisions. But if I mentioned a thousand other traits that are important, I would say that the most important thing is to stay grounded.
- [61:43]
Miranda Devine
Terrific. Thank you so much. Lisa.
- [61:45]
Lee Zeldin
Great to see you.
- [61:46]
Miranda Devine
You too. Thanks so much for joining us today. Please hit the like and subscribe buttons to make sure that you don't miss a single episode of PodForce One.