One-on-One with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent: Tariff Derangement Syndrome, Elon Musk Feud, and the Royal Family.

Summary

Pod Force One: One-on-One with Treasury Secretary Scott Besant Release Date: June 18, 2025

In this compelling episode of Pod Force One, New York Post columnist Miranda Devine engages in an in-depth conversation with Treasury Secretary Scott Besant. The discussion unpacks a range of critical topics, from tariff policies and economic strategies to personal insights into Secretary Besant's life and career. Here is a detailed summary of their conversation:

---

I. Introduction and Setting the Scene

Miranda Devine welcomes listeners to Pod Force One, setting the stage for an exclusive interview with Scott Besant, the current Treasury Secretary. The interview takes place in the historic Treasury building, where Besant shares insights about the office's legacy.

[00:36] Scott Besant: "This room is one of three museum offices here in the fantastic treasury building. Salmon Chase was the Treasury Secretary for Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War... this is a museum quality office."

II. Tariff Policies and Economic Impact

The conversation delves into the historical and contemporary role of tariffs in the U.S. economy. Besant draws parallels between Alexander Hamilton’s foundational financial strategies and President Trump's modern use of tariffs as a tool for negotiation.

[02:28] Scott Besant: "Alexander Hamilton set up the financial system for the US Government... one of the things President Trump has added is negotiations. So he uses tariffs for leverage."

Besant introduces the term "Tariff Derangement Syndrome" (TDS), critiquing the exaggerated fears about tariff-induced recessions that have not materialized.

[04:28] Scott Besant: "I call it TDS. A lot of predictions about tariffs causing recessions have just been baseless and a flop."

III. Wage Growth and Employment

Highlighting positive economic indicators, Besant discusses the resurgence of blue-collar wage growth under the current administration, attributing it to policies favoring manufacturing and reducing illegal immigration's impact on wages.

[05:33] Scott Besant: "Real wages for hourly workers, non-supervisory workers, have risen almost 2% in the first five months."

IV. Relationship with President Trump

Besant praises President Trump's economic instincts and leadership style, emphasizing their aligned vision for revitalizing strategic industries in the U.S.

[06:45] Scott Besant: "It's all about following President Trump's lead because he has incredible instincts... We haven't had a president like this for over 100 years."

V. Trade Negotiations with China

Discussing recent trade negotiations, Besant outlines the strategic decoupling from China in critical industries such as steel, semiconductors, and pharmaceuticals. He emphasizes the challenges posed by China's economic policies and the administration's efforts to rebalance trade relations.

[12:06] Scott Besant: "We are definitely doing a strategic decoupling for important industries. We would like for them to open up and buy more US goods and services."

VI. Internal Cabinet Relations and Elon Musk

Besant touches on his working relationship with Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and addresses reported tensions with Elon Musk, clarifying that their disagreements are rooted in different operational styles rather than personal conflicts.

[20:32] Scott Besant: "We have had disagreements, but we both want to get to the same place... everybody's very passionate about doing the best job for President Trump and the American people."

VII. Personal Background and Identity

Transitioning to personal topics, Besant shares his upbringing in South Carolina, early work experiences, and the influence of his father’s passion for science fiction. He also openly discusses being the first openly gay Treasury Secretary, highlighting the importance of merit over identity politics.

[47:07] Scott Besant: "Thanks to President Trump, the highest-ranking US government official in the history of the United States... I'm happy about it, but it's because he thinks I can advance the economy for the American people."

VIII. Career Highlights and Achievements

Besant recounts pivotal moments in his career, including his role in breaking the Bank of England and his tenure at George Soros's Source Fund Management. He reflects on significant trades and their impact on global finance.

[40:04] Scott Besant: "Stan Druckenmiller had this idea that... my contribution was running the SFM office in London... we made a billion dollars in a day."

IX. Vision for US Treasury and Future Plans

Looking ahead, Besant outlines his goals for the Treasury, focusing on stabilizing US finances, ensuring sustained economic growth, and maintaining the US Dollar's status as the global reserve currency. He also highlights the administration's proactive stance on digital assets and cryptocurrency.

[57:45] Scott Besant: "Stabilize the US finances... make sure that we have another great 250 years... lock in the US Dollar as the reserve currency for many more generations."

X. Closing Remarks

In the final segment, Besant shares his philosophy on leadership and success, emphasizing passion and dedication. He also touches on parenting, underscoring the importance of time and supporting children's interests.

[63:46] Scott Besant: "I call it love of the game... help them find what's the game they love."

Devine wraps up the interview by acknowledging Besant's significant contributions and hinting at future episodes featuring other influential figures.

---

This episode offers a comprehensive look into Scott Besant's perspectives on economic policies, his strategic approach to international trade, and his personal journey to becoming the first openly gay Treasury Secretary. Through insightful dialogue and candid reflections, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the current financial landscape and the leadership driving it forward.

Notable Quotes:

• Scott Besant [04:28]: "I call it TDS. A lot of predictions about tariffs causing recessions have just been baseless and a flop."
• Scott Besant [05:33]: "Real wages for hourly workers, non-supervisory workers, have risen almost 2% in the first five months."
• Scott Besant [12:06]: "We are definitely doing a strategic decoupling for important industries. We would like for them to open up and buy more US goods and services."
• Scott Besant [47:07]: "Thanks to President Trump, the highest-ranking US government official in the history of the United States... I'm happy about it, but it's because he thinks I can advance the economy for the American people."

---

For those who missed this episode, tune in to Pod Force One on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform to stay informed on the power, politics, and people shaping America's future.

Transcript

[Miranda Devine]

Hello and welcome Back to the PodForceOne podcast. I'm Miranda Devine. Our weekly podcast features the biggest players in Washington. And today we're coming to you from the US treasury, and we're speaking with one of the most important figures in global finance, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant. Thank you very much, Secretary Besant, for being our second guest on podforce One. I know you're incredibly busy, and you've brought us into this absolutely beautiful room in the historic treasury building. Can you tell us a little about it?

[Scott Besant]

Miranda, first of all, congratulations on the podcast. This room is one of three museum offices here in the fantastic treasury building. Salmon Chase was the Treasury Secretary for Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War. And he financed the United States or the Union army, so he created the term greenback and he led the war effort. And, you know, there have been several times during the course of the United States history when treasury has been called on to really hold the nation together. Once was during the Civil War, during the Depression, during World War II, to finance the war effort, and then during COVID So we're sitting here today, this office, it's the exact furniture. His portrait is in here. Same everything. So this is a museum quality office. It's not my office. It's the General Counsel's office. But I like coming down and sitting in it sometimes.

[Miranda Devine]

It must be incredible for you to come from Wall street to basically your living history. Your predecessor, the very first Treasury Secretary was of course, Alexander Hamilton. The original tariff man was. Are there echoes in his career in what you're doing today?

[Scott Besant]

Well, look, Alexander Hamilton set up the financial system for the US Government, but before then, it was this loose alliance and a lot of states issued money. There were banks, there was no central bank. It all happened in Alexander Hamilton's head. It's incredible.

[Miranda Devine]

Brilliant.

[Scott Besant]

And one of the things that happened in his head was this idea of tariffs. And he did it for two reasons. One, to finance the Treasury. So the US Government used to be solely financed by tariffs, sole form of revenues. And. And then two, to protect nascent US Industries from the British, from the French, because he was trying to develop an industrial base. And as I always say, President Trump has added a third leg to the tariff stool, and that's negotiations. So he uses tariffs for leverage. So he's using it to raise revenues, he's using it for our industry. And. And he's also using it for negotiations, which is very powerful. Very powerful. So two weeks ago today, I was in the Fox Green Room and the President announced that he was thinking of putting a 50% tariff on the European Union.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

And the European Union is very difficult to negotiate with. There's 27, 28 members. They have a collective action problem. The Germans care about cars, the French care about agriculture. Not sure what the Spanish care about, but it's the old Henry Kissinger saying, when I call Europe, who do I call?

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

And the Ursula van der Luyden was not really coming forward in terms of a tariff negotiation. So once the president threatened to put on a 50% tariff, 4, 5, 6 of the European state leaders called him and then he was on the phone with her within 48 hours. And the Europeans have started moving forward.

[Miranda Devine]

We were told when Donald Trump upended world trade with all these tariffs that we were going to have a recession, that inflation was going to soar. Has that happened?

[Scott Besant]

Well, Miranda, I call it dds. And a lot of people think that's Trump derangement syndrome, its tariff derangement center.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. The next stage, the next stage.

[Scott Besant]

And I think that a lot of Democrats are in favor of tariffs, but now that President Trump is leading the charge, they can't be. And so they call them the Trump tariffs. And that all these predictions have just been baseless and a flop. And nobody wants to admit it, nobody wants to admit it. That the, the CPI, the PPI were both 0.1% last month and we had which was the cumulative was the best number since 2020 and the month before that was the best number since 2021. We haven't had a recession. As a matter of fact, the economy is very strong. Household income growth was 0.7.8% in April for one month. That's out of the park.

[Miranda Devine]

And you've got some other good news, haven't you, about blue collar wage growth?

[Scott Besant]

Blue collar wage growth. The only other time it's been this high, wait for it was during President Trump's first term. So we've seen real wages for hourly workers, non supervisory workers rise almost 2% in the first five months.

[Miranda Devine]

Why is that?

[Scott Besant]

No president has done done that before.

[Miranda Devine]

And why is that?

[Scott Besant]

It's the President's emphasis on manufacturing. I think there's also likely a component of whether it's 12 or 20 million illegal aliens coming out of the workforce. And Joe Biden opened the border and it was flooded. And that for working Americans, that's a disaster because it's pressure on their wages.

[Miranda Devine]

And so blue collar wage growth went down during Biden.

[Scott Besant]

It did.

[Miranda Devine]

And it's back up again just in a few months.

[Scott Besant]

In five months, five Months. Five months.

[Miranda Devine]

That's amazing. What's. You've just been named the most popular treasury secretary in history. What's the secret and what's your relationship like with Donald Trump?

[Scott Besant]

Well, look, it's all the secret is following President Trump's lead because he has incredible instincts. I am fortunate that his knowledge of the economy, his instincts. We haven't had a president like this for over 100 years, maybe ever. Someone who comes from the business community who wants to do deals. And he's reconstituted the Republican Party because when you think about it, you have the richest people in America from Silicon Valley on one side. And then two weeks ago tonight, I was in Pittsburgh with President Trump at a U.S. steel plant. And it was incredible. Incredible. The steel workers and the warmth and his feelings for them, Their feelings for him. And those were working class Democrats, and not anymore, but because President Trump cares about them. He's gotten great trade deals. He realizes that we have strategic industries that were slipping away from us, like steel, semiconductors, pharmaceuticals. We got to bring them back home.

[Miranda Devine]

And you used to be a Democrat donor. What made you decide to throw in your lot with Donald Trump? And I mean, did you lose friends?

[Scott Besant]

Well, let's talk proportionality, right? So in my life, I have probably given 95% to Republicans, 5% to Democrats, and the New York Times and others like to refer to. I gave $100,000 to Al Gore in 2000, which things might have gone a bit differently in Iraq if. Yes, if that had happened. But again, it's back to President Trump has reconstituted the best parts of the Republican Party. And it's for everybody. It's not the country club anymore. It's not big business, but it's pro business, but with an eye on working Americans. And that's what we really lost. When China came into the wto, there's something called the China shock. And working Americans were just left on the side of the road. The Democrats took them for granted. Republicans didn't think that they could get them. And I think back to your question on wages for working Americans. They're doing fantastic under President Trump.

[Miranda Devine]

You talked about the China shock. Do you think back in, I think, 2001, when we allowed China to join the WTO and it has special advantages. Do you think that people should have realized that it was going to be so damaging to American workers?

[Scott Besant]

I think they should have realized that there should have been better guardrails. So I think I'm trying to think who it was. Oh, is that actually Larry Fink? The head of BlackRock said that we had capitalism without guardrails. And I spoke to him the other day and I said, what a great phrase. And I think that the US Economy got more and more financialized. The coastal elites were doing great. And then the middle of the country just got hollowed out. And the Democrats have this strategy called Compensate the loser, which is just more benefits, more welfare. Welfare. We don't care what's happened to your community. And I'm sure you've seen the same surveys that I have that say that. Would you be willing to pay a little more if your community was back to the way it was? And this gets mocked by, by what I would call the orthodox hardcore free market. Right. And by Democrats as being this nostalgic concept. We have 9% of the workforce is in manufacturing. And it's a fact that we get much stronger wage growth for the workers in manufacturing jobs than the service economy. So sorry. The steel plant, the auto plant, the ball bearing plant has closed. Have added at McDonald's the new posture.

[Miranda Devine]

I guess, towards China now with Donald Trump. You just recently flew to London to have some pretty willing trade negotiations with the Chinese. And I think this was just over the sort of retaliatory measures that China had slapped on America. For instance, magnets and some rare earths they had put a ban on. And then we'd slapped some, some payback to them. And so did you manage to sort that out? And do you think that we're going to get to a point that Donald Trump has said he wants, where China opens up to America?

[Scott Besant]

Well, on the whether they'll open up, we'll see. So if we go back on April 2, President Trump and the economic team gave out reciprocal tariffs for the world. And I think China's was maybe at 34% or something. And it was if you want to come negotiate, you negotiate, but do not escalate. And the Chinese were the only ones to negotiate. Excuse me, escalate. And then it turned into this tit for tat. Yeah. And then we were at 145% tariffs on them. They were 125% on us, and which is effectively an embargo.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Scott Besant]

And you know, I believe that Chinese were feeling more pain. Their system takes pain better. But I believe it was probably very painful for them because that we import three times more than we sell to them. So we are the deficit country. The history of trade wars, the surplus country always takes more pain.

[Miranda Devine]

And their economy is not doing very well, is it?

[Scott Besant]

At the moment, they're in the middle of a real estate downturn, some might call it a crisis. They've had low growth. There's something called the middle income trap for developing economies. And what we will see with China is can they be a reliable partner. So from COVID we learned, and this may be the only good thing that came out of COVID was that we have to bring back strategic industries to the US against steel, semiconductors, medicines, some others and these rare earth magnets. And we have an over reliance on China and other countries, not necessarily our allies for these and we're bringing that back home. So I would call that a strategic decoupling. The idea of a generalized decoupling and the two largest economies not trading with each other is not a great thought. So the ball's in China's court. We are definitely doing a strategic decoupling for important industries. We would like for them to open up and buy more US goods and services, allow US market access because it's crazy. China's tariffs are only about 5%.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

It's just the non tariff barriers that are really tough. We gave them full access to our market. We have so many things on the shelves here that are Chinese products. So look, if they are in the mood to help rebalance trade with us, then we can do it together and then if not, it's going to be choppy.

[Miranda Devine]

So what's your prediction then? How do you think it's going to go now? What's the next stage?

[Scott Besant]

Well, so we had a meeting in Geneva May 11th and 12th to bring down basically in the embargo, 145%. 125% tariffs. We each brought them down 115, so we're at 30 that were put on this year plus another 20 from President Trump's first term. So we're at 50, they're at 10, that's fine. But what the Chinese had also done in April, they put on a series of non tariff trade barriers, what they call countermeasures. And one of them was putting these rare earth magnets which are these crazy. It's this crazy little product that's in everything. It's in your iPhone, it's in your car.

[Miranda Devine]

It's how scary that we're reliant on them for it.

[Scott Besant]

Well, look, I blame the past administrations for letting this happen. And one thing that we're determined, the national security team, which I'm on, the national economic team that I'm on, we will not leave in 2028 without having solved many of these problems. All of these problems, we are not going to be held hostage or over a barrel. And we'll go from there. We'll go from there. The meeting in London was to establish. We were trying to take off the export controls. So the magnets were not flowing as promised in Geneva. Unclear how much was just a glitch in the Chinese system, which is a slow command and control system. In the meantime, we had put some countermeasures on them. Some of them got publicity. We had embargoed aircraft engines, engine parts.

[Miranda Devine]

Grounded a few of their planes.

[Scott Besant]

I think ground, ground grounded a few of their planes. We were reviewing the visa status of Chinese students. We were withholding ethane, which is the base product for plastics. So the idea is we agreed in London, magnets start flowing, we will take down our countermeasures, and then we'll probably have another in person meeting again in three weeks to see if we can do this mutual rebalancing. And look, it should be natural. President Trump wants the US to manufacture more and more, become a manufacturing powerhouse for precision manufacturing. Again, there's 30% of global manufacturing now, which is too high.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

And it can't go higher. It can't go higher. So the way for them is not to try to export their financial problems is to switch to the consumption model. And if we could do that together, it'd be incredible.

[Miranda Devine]

And now Howard Lutnick was. The Commerce Secretary has been, I guess, put into this team with you. And I think it's part of Donald Trump's team of rivals philosophy because there's been a lot of talk about your. You're both billionaires from Wall street, some competition between you.

[Scott Besant]

Marina, you know what I love on the Internet? I'm 6 foot 8 and have $5 billion. Neither one of those is correct. And look, President Trump fills the right people with the right jobs with complementary skill sets. So I actually think that we work quite well together. I think that the.

[Miranda Devine]

There are a few troubles at the beginning, butting heads.

[Scott Besant]

Look, some people in the Cabinet knew each other quite well. Secretary Ludnick, Howard and I are both from the private sector. We've never been in government before, so everyone's feeling their way around. But I tell you, the camaraderie in the Cabinet's incredible. When we have the Cabinet meetings, we're getting a lot of business done. And think how transparent President Trump is in these meetings.

[Miranda Devine]

It's incredible.

[Scott Besant]

The last one, if it went for two and a half hours, all but ten minutes was televised. Yet President Biden didn't Have a cabinet meeting for 10 months. If the Cabinet wanted to invoke the 25th Amendment to remove him, they couldn't have because they hadn't seen him.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah, Elon Musk was a little bit of a thorn in the side, I think, for a few of the Cabinet members, including you. And I asked President Trump about the famous stoush between you and Elon Musk, where there was a shouting match outside his office and Elon Musk reportedly shoved you. Is that true?

[Scott Besant]

We have had disagreements, but we both want to get to the same place. We both want to eliminate the waste, fraud and abuse in government. The Silicon Valley mode of operation is move quickly and break things. I always say here at treasury, we move deliberately and fix things. I think Elon probably fancies himself more of a Viking. I think I'm more of a ninja, sort of. The submarine surfaces, fires, goes back under. And look, everybody's very passionate about doing the best job for President Trump and the American people.

[Miranda Devine]

And did you call him a total fraud?

[Scott Besant]

Absolutely not.

[Miranda Devine]

And, I mean, he said that he was going to save a trillion dollars. Is that in spending? I mean, how do we get the spending under control, I guess, if Doge can't do it?

[Scott Besant]

Well, I think what Doge has done that's very important is Elon set the pace. And Doge is a movement, so he set the base. And look, he was vilified by the press, by the Tesla customers, and I think.

[Miranda Devine]

And that probably put stress on him.

[Scott Besant]

Oh, I would have been. I mean, and the personal safety, domestic terrorist attacks on Tesla vehicles, it was insane.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Scott Besant]

And I think in a way, that the base that he set and some of the people he's brought into government and the ethos. So I think of Doge as an ethos. And to the extent that Elon has departed physically, I think that ethos is there. And the momentum for what he's done will yield bigger and bigger savings over time.

[Miranda Devine]

He is right about the debt, though, isn't he? I mean, it is a train wreck ahead at some point. Is there any way of. The debt ceiling obviously isn't working. Is there any way of dealing with the debt in our lifetime?

[Scott Besant]

What we're trying to do is there are two ways to fix the debt. One, spend less. And we are getting spending under control, whether it's the House bill or the Senate bill, we're probably going to cut $1.5 or $2 trillion of spending. And then through President Trump's trade policies, tax policies and deregulation policies, we're going to grow faster. So what's really important is the debt to gdp. So it's that number. So we're going to grow the GDP and then they shrink the growth of the debt and that completely changes the trajectory. So we were left with a Mess. It was 6.5, 6.7% deficit to GDP. So, you know, imagine a household that's overspending by that much every year and we're going to bring that down slowly. And I've said I'd like to see the deficit get back to something with a three in front of it by the end of the president's term in 2028. That's about the long term average. And we don't have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem. And we are constraining the spending and we're going to grow the economy. Nobody does that better than President Trump.

[Miranda Devine]

And in the budget, there's a measure to increase the amount of money that we put into the imf. Is that, I mean, do you think it's enough? And why are we doing that?

[Scott Besant]

We are going to give the multilateral development banks a chance. And I am in contact with the head of the imf, the head of the World Bank. And what's happened is the Democrats just let them do what they wanted and let them create these green agendas, climate agendas, DEI agendas, And they just got so far off course. Republicans had never paid much attention to them because they didn't really like them. And it was what I would call benign neglect. And I had the saying, nature may abhor a vacuum, the Chinese don't. So the Chinese have just moved into these institutions and are trying to take them as much of the global south, the brics. So I gave a speech during IMF World Bank Week here in Washington, and I said, we're going back to basics, core principles, and we'll see. I'm optimistic that we can leverage our. We're the largest shareholders. I'm optimistic that through capital contributions we can leverage our shareholdings and then leverage our influence. But we're going to do it properly and we're going to be in it to win it.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. Power, politics and the people behind the headlines. I'm Miranda Devine, the New York Post columnist and the host of the brand new podcast, Pod Force One. Every week I'll sit down for candid conversations with Washington's most powerful disruptors, lawmakers, newsmakers, and even the President of the United States. These are the leaders shaping the future of America and the world. Listen to podforceone with me. Me, Miranda Devine, every week on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You don't want to miss an episode. Power, politics and the people behind the headlines. I'm Miranda Devine, New York Post columnist and the host of the brand new podcast, Pod Force One. Every week I'll sit down for candid conversations with Washington's most powerful disruptors, lawmakers, newsmakers, and even the President of the United States. Hello, everyone. This is your favorite president of all time, Donald Trump. And listen to Miranda Devine on her brand new podcast.

[Scott Besant]

It's going to be through the roof.

[Miranda Devine]

These are the leaders shaping the future of America and the world. Listen to podforce One with me, Miranda Devine every week on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. You don't want to miss an episode. Now, let's just talk about your childhood. What makes you tick? You grew up in a small town, I guess in South Carolina. I was impressed to hear that your father had the largest science fiction collection in South Carolina. I'm a sci fi buff myself. What was he like?

[Scott Besant]

Look, he loved to read. I think that I knew I could show you Alpha Centauri on a map before I could show you Chicago. And he'd sit and we'd sit, we'd look at the stars, we'd talk about who was out there when we were gonna be able to go out there. One of my childhood memories is being woken up and to watch Neil Armstrong be a the walk on the moon. And so, you know, he was a great dreamer. He was a great dreamer. Not always a great executor.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes. So he went broke, didn't he?

[Scott Besant]

Twice.

[Miranda Devine]

Twice, right. And what impact did that have on you? I think you said watching the family home that's been in the family for generations get sold off.

[Scott Besant]

Well, that or watching watching some the family belongings get carried out, things like that. And how old were you first time? Nine.

[Miranda Devine]

Right?

[Scott Besant]

Eight. Nine. So I got my first job when I was nine.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. Because of that?

[Scott Besant]

Well, yeah, I didn't want to be a victim and it was okay. You can do one or two things. You could just sit around and wring your hands or you can go out, take control of your own life, which I did at age 9.

[Miranda Devine]

What did you do?

[Scott Besant]

I had two jobs, actually. One, I worked on the beach putting out umbrellas and chairs because, you know, as a lifeguard you're supposed to do like the one thing, not get your hair wet.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

So I did that. And then I also worked on A restaurant bussing tables.

[Miranda Devine]

Wow.

[Scott Besant]

I can tell you that's why I support the President's no tax on tips. I was getting tips. I was nine years old.

[Miranda Devine]

You knew what it was like. And, and then. And your father. So did it break him? I mean, what, what was the impact on him? I mean, your parents split up, didn't they?

[Scott Besant]

Yeah, well, my mom was married five times.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. Wow. Twice to your father.

[Scott Besant]

Twice to my father. Kind of like Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton. So there's a lot of passion there.

[Miranda Devine]

He was the love of her life.

[Scott Besant]

Allegedly. She. And. But I think that's why I am so focused on the debt here and having responsible finances, because that's one of the things that it always did for me, having that experience early on. Because I can tell you our family had been one of the first arrivals in South Carolina. We had been affluent for 250, 300 years. And then just the mistakes he made. Too much real estate, leverage, some neglect, that all of a sudden the lifestyle ended. And I'm going to make sure we don't do the same thing in the US it's the 250th anniversary next year and we are not going to make the same mistakes my family did. The United States is going to be affluent for the next 250 years.

[Miranda Devine]

And what did that mean for you, you know, at that tender age that the lifestyle changed? I mean, did you have to go to a different school?

[Scott Besant]

Yeah, I mean, it's all those things. It's. I think my golf game would probably be much better if I'd been golfing instead of working. But again, it also taught me this incredible independence. It's incredible self sufficiency. And it also. You're never afraid of anything. Anything's possible.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. The worst has happened.

[Scott Besant]

One of the worst things has happened. So my first job in New York, I think some people might have thought it would have been beneath them, but I took it because it was a great chance to be a stock market analyst. But it was also the fellow who owned the firm said, oh, you can sleep on the sofa at the office.

[Miranda Devine]

Oh, really?

[Scott Besant]

It was great. It was great. I had a free place to live in Manhattan at age 19.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. Let's talk about your career. You wanted to be a journalist, I think, at one point.

[Scott Besant]

But this is journalist, computer scientist. They couldn't figure out which one.

[Miranda Devine]

Me too, by the way.

[Scott Besant]

Really? Yeah. Well, journalism seems to have worked out, Miranda. Yeah.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes. I'm happy I made that decision.

[Scott Besant]

But I will tell you, when I arrived, I think One of the things that broke me from computer science was when I arrived at Yale in 1980. Maybe some of your older viewers and listeners can remember what punch cards were.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes, Right.

[Scott Besant]

Yale had just switched from punch cards, the university computing system, to screens and keyboards. And the transition was a disaster. I mean, worse than anything I've seen at the IRS here. Wow. It was bad. And it just broke me. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not doing this. And then, you know, again, that back in the 80s, newspapers, Time magazine, News, Newsweek, the newspaper at Yale is called the Yale Daily News. And if you became editor in chief of that, you pretty much got a ticket to be a reporter in one of those. And I ran for it, lost, kind of pounded for three months, and then picked myself up, did this internship in New York. And it turned out that investing suited me because it was a combination of quantitative and the computer side, and then journalism, investing, a lot of. It's really telling a story. So putting those two together, researching, creating a narrative. Researching, creating a narrative. Is there a story here? Is there not being willing. I'm sure you've done tons of research and just there's nothing here.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

Or put it on the shelf, bring it back. And so it was a great. For me, it was a great combination of qualitative and quantitative. My sister always says, you're really lucky because what you love doing. Up until I took the position here at Treasury, I was doing it 15, 20 hours a day. What you love doing pays well.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

But you'd probably be doing it if it didn't.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. Do you have, like. I asked President Trump about his. He had musical aptitude, and his mother, everyone was surprised. Got him to learn the flute. Do you have any sort of, like, creative outlets?

[Scott Besant]

I love architecture and all that. So, again, this is why I'm fascinated by this building. It's not only an honor for me to be in the White House, but it's very visually inspiring.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Scott Besant]

And this is the first time I've ever lived in Washington, and just the monumental buildings and the history. And I moved here from Charleston, South Carolina.

[Miranda Devine]

You had a beautiful house there that you'd renovated.

[Scott Besant]

Yes.

[Miranda Devine]

Yep.

[Scott Besant]

And so Charleston has the largest historic district in America, and it's always voted the number one tourist destination. So it's great that Americans, people all over the world want to come and see it.

[Miranda Devine]

And so back to your big job was to work for George Soros, who, I guess he's like the bete noir of the Maga movement. And what's he Like. And do you still talk to him?

[Scott Besant]

No, I haven't spoken to him since 2016. And George was very smart for most of the time I was there. So I was at Source Fund Management twice. My real mentor is Stan Drucken, who's most incredible genius investor in history, but also just like the best person. He cares about his family and a few other people in New York can langone. This fellow, Jeff Canada, started this thing, Harlem Children's Zone, which takes these kids at a very young age and helps their families move them forward and break the generational poverty problem. So I worked mostly for Stan, but interacted with George. And I'll tell you what George is really good at is figuring out how systems work, how they accelerate and. And how they break down. And what we saw with what he did with the district, mainly the district attorneys, he figured out that. And again, I was there until 2000, and Georgia's political activities were really limited to bringing down the. Helping bring down the Iron Curtain.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

Very laudable.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

When I got there, the. What is now the notorious Open Society Foundation, I think was five. It was either three Hungarians, two Russians. Two Russians, three Hungarians. But they were sneaking. You can remember fax machines behind the.

[Miranda Devine]

Iron Curtain, so doing good works.

[Scott Besant]

So. So that the dissidents could get the word out. And then by the time I came back in 2011, George was more politically polarizing, but it hadn't really accelerated.

[Miranda Devine]

Why did that happen? Did he get married to someone woke or something?

[Scott Besant]

No, I don't know what it was. I've never been able to figure it out. The country's been great to him.

[Miranda Devine]

And why the district attorneys? Why does he want to do that?

[Scott Besant]

Oh, because like I said, what George is very good at is figuring out systems. And he figured out that a lot of money in presidential politics, Senate, House races, but at the district attorneys, if you have a view of a different kind of America, those are easy races. Yeah, cheap, cheap. So he went in and was able to get a lot of progressive candidates over the line, defund the police, decriminalize this, decriminalize that.

[Miranda Devine]

But that's been hugely destructive to the country in law and order. So why would he want that chaos again?

[Scott Besant]

He has a very different vision than I do, President Trump, but it's a vision that some people in America have, and I'm not happy he did it, but shame on us, shame on our movement for letting him do it.

[Miranda Devine]

Allowing it to happen.

[Scott Besant]

For allowing it to happen. But I will tell you, one of the. One of the things That I was involved was something called Moms for Liberty.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

Because what was even less expensive was taking over the school boards.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

And it turned out that many of these school boards, the school board members were funded by teachers unions, of course, and, or the other left wing groups. So to get on a school board, a candidate might spend $1,000 of their own money, but if a teacher's union shows up and puts in 20,000, then that candidate's going to win. Of course, who knows who the school board member is. So just with not much money, this group, others have been able to push back against takeover school boards and also to do more with charter schools or school vouchers. School choice.

[Miranda Devine]

That's incredible. So donated to them. Yeah, yeah.

[Scott Besant]

Or I've been very active in school choice.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. And now one of the things you did, you were just 30 years old, you pulled off the biggest, I guess trade in the, in the history of, you know, 100 years.

[Scott Besant]

At the time.

[Miranda Devine]

At the time, yes. Which was you broke the bank of England. Tell us like you came up with that idea. What, what made you think of that and did you realize what you were really the enormity of it at the time?

[Scott Besant]

Well, it was a group effort. My contribution, so it was Stan Druckenmiller had this idea that there's something called the exchange rate mechanism. The pound was tied to the German mark, this is before the euro, and was trading in a band. The Stan had this idea that it might not stay in the band. My contribution was I was running the SFM office in London and I was observing that there was a big property hangover after Margaret Thatcher. And the Chancellor of this record had been a fellow called Nigel Lawson. And there was something called the Lawson housing boom. And he had really done the economy to get Barron Thatcher reelected through housing. And they, they really made working class Brits into homeowners. But the more what I, what I realized was the mortgage structure in the UK, very different than the US you know, in the US we have 5, 10, 30 year mortgages. In the UK, your mortgage at the time, 90% of the mortgages moved up and down with the bank of England's interest rate. So if the Chancellor raised rates on Wednesday, your mortgage went up on a Friday.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

So you, you had no certainty. So what, what happened was as we went in and started selling pounds and buying Deutsche marks, the surefire way to chase away a currency speculator is to make it expensive.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Scott Besant]

So they, the bank of England, the British government were raising interest rates and they kept raising Rates. And raising rates will take a little bit of short term pain, but they will bankrupt all the new homeowners that they have in the country, which they did. They created a property crisis. And so eventually the British government had to say uncle. They came out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism. And.

[Miranda Devine]

And you guys made a billion dollars in a day.

[Scott Besant]

In a day. In a day.

[Miranda Devine]

Wow.

[Scott Besant]

Yep.

[Miranda Devine]

Bit of champagne popped that night.

[Scott Besant]

Well, it was a good day.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Scott Besant]

Good day.

[Miranda Devine]

Incredible. And you also know King Charles and Queen Camilla too, don't you?

[Scott Besant]

I do.

[Miranda Devine]

How do you know them?

[Scott Besant]

I do. I was introduced to then Prince Charles back in the 90s, and then I got to know then just Camilla Parker Bowles, and I invited her to come stay with me out in the Hamptons there. Really? Wow. And it was her first trip to the US so 1999. And then we stayed in touch ever since. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

[Miranda Devine]

And what was she like then?

[Scott Besant]

She was very down to earth. Very English county lady that I could see why. Probably the love of then Prince Charles's life. They seem to be very similar. Have a great time together, a lot in common.

[Miranda Devine]

So that brings me to John, your husband. You have two children together, Cole and Caroline.

[Scott Besant]

Yep.

[Miranda Devine]

Tell me, he was a former New York prosecutor.

[Scott Besant]

He was.

[Miranda Devine]

He was very handsome.

[Scott Besant]

Well, your words, not mine. Born real New Yorker. Born at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital. Grew up in New York Jesuit schools. And an attorney. And a prosecutor, which comes out a lot of times during arguments. And he was a prosecutor in the Bronx, in the Bronx County District Attorney's office up by Yankee Stadium.

[Miranda Devine]

So he saw a lot of life.

[Scott Besant]

Well. And death.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

So during the worst murder years for New York. So I think 1989 to 1992. 93.

[Miranda Devine]

Pre Giuliani.

[Scott Besant]

Pre Giuliani. I still remember when Giuliani won. Incredible.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. You could see what a mayor could do, what a politician can do.

[Scott Besant]

Well, and then, unfortunately, I was living in New York when Bill de Blasio won. And you got to see what the other side did.

[Miranda Devine]

That's right. And so tell me, how did you and John meet?

[Scott Besant]

We were introduced by friends.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. And was it love at first sight?

[Scott Besant]

I don't know. I don't know.

[Miranda Devine]

Are you a romantic?

[Scott Besant]

Sorry?

[Miranda Devine]

Are you a romantic?

[Scott Besant]

I am practical.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

I'm practical.

[Miranda Devine]

So when did you find out that you were gay? I mean, when did you realize?

[Scott Besant]

Well, I think you and I have talked about it before. I actually was offered an appointment to the Naval Academy. And given that my dad had decided to have another financial Hiccup right before I left for university.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

Timing couldn't have been worse. But I want to serve my country. I want to serve my country. And the good part of that was also the service academies here are the government pays for your education, then you go and you spend five years as an officer. So coming back to that, this is a dream for me because I'd want to serve my country since I was 17 or 18, but back then, so this is 1979, there are no gays in the military. And look, I didn't want to break the rules, I didn't want to hide things and, but it was probably a better idea to go to Yale and work three jobs.

[Miranda Devine]

That's quite a lot of integrity, though, to not want to.

[Scott Besant]

Well, it was a lot of integrity, but I am an eminently practical person. And you'd be court martialed.

[Miranda Devine]

Right.

[Scott Besant]

Like they used to follow people off the bases. And what are you doing in your private life? What are you.

[Miranda Devine]

And what an amazing time now. I mean, you've gone full circle. You're now married, you have two children, and you're the, I mean, not that Donald Trump ever talks about it and neither do you or make a big deal about it. And it's obviously marriage, but still, it is kind of historic that you are the first gay treasury secretary and, well.

[Scott Besant]

Thanks to President Trump, the highest ranking US government official in the history of the United States. Yeah, but as I always say, it's coincident, not causal. He wanted the best people. I sleep very well at night knowing that it's because he thinks that I can advance the economy for the American people, handle the finances and get his agenda rather than some identity politics thing. Some identity politics.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah, but still, I mean, the position that you're in must be for young gay boys maybe growing up to see you in that position and that it is on merit. You must sort of feel happy that you've done that.

[Scott Besant]

Yeah, look, but, but I, I, I'm happy about it, but I think it may go back to my, my, my dad's interest in science fiction. I always thought everything was possible.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

Like I, I, I was just unconstrained in my thinking. Unconstrained in the, you know, the possibilities and life. Like, you know, from Little River, South Carolina to the sitting at Buckingham palace with the royals being back and forth. For those who don't know on your show, that treasury building is part of the White House campus.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

So it's Treasury, White House, Eisenhower Office Building. So, you know, I'm back and Forth in and out of the Oval Office. I have a good imagination. I couldn't have imagined this.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're very similar in that way to Donald Trump in that just enormous self belief and kind of no barriers on what your ambition is.

[Scott Besant]

Well, it's that and also it's a different way of looking at the world. This Ukraine minerals deal, the and we'll call it, it's really an economic partnership. That was President Trump's idea. It was. Well, we put in all this money. A large segment of the American population is becoming disillusioned with the US Overseas incursions. We've got this big debt. So what is a better way to engage with a country in distress? So now, despite President Zelenskyy's kind of toing and froing once the agreement was signed, there's no daylight between the Ukrainian people and the American people. And if they win, we win. If we win, they win. And I always say economic security is national security. That when the Iron Curtain came down, Ukrainian economy and the Polish economy were the same size. Polish economy is now three times bigger. So when this tragic conflict ends, and perhaps with the help of this economic partnership, if the Ukraine economy could grow at that rate, then I think the Russians might be afraid of them at that point.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. So that's their security is economic growth.

[Scott Besant]

But it was just a different way. And we were. When President Trump came up with this, when I showed up in Kyiv to encourage President Zelensky to sign it, we were just pilloried.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

Especially the foreign policy community. How dare you do this, do that?

[Miranda Devine]

Is that why Zelenskyy refused to play ball? Because the foreign policy wonks were all telling him not to?

[Scott Besant]

No, I think President Zelensky internally has been dealt a tough hand. And Ukraine, I can't remember where it ranks, but it's 102nd, 105th most corrupt country in the world.

[Miranda Devine]

We know that from the Bursima. Yes. Laptop for mill.

[Scott Besant]

So I think he had a lot of domestic constituencies who didn't want this partnership signed. Because what it does is make sure the money goes to Ukraine people and.

[Miranda Devine]

Not to the oligarchs.

[Scott Besant]

Not. Not to the oligarchs. Not. It's not siphoned off to the south of France. It's not siphoned off to the Geneva bank account.

[Miranda Devine]

Why was he so obstreperous in that? You were sitting there in that meeting. I mean, it was probably even more stressful in there or tense when you were there in person. Why do you Think he did that.

[Scott Besant]

I actually didn't find it that stressful. I was incredulous. I was incredulous because we had the economic deal and we'd had a fantastic week that week. And again, this is one of the real perks for me that on Monday or Tuesday we'd had President Macron and the French delegation come in and we had a great meeting in the Oval with them. We had a great working lunch and press conference day before. We had had Prime Minister Keir Starmer from the UK and again, same thing, great meeting in the Oval, some great chemistry between Prime Minister, President Trump, very robust working lunch. So Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, all President Zelenskyy had to do was come in, have a press conference. If he was out of sorts, could have done it over the meal instead.

[Miranda Devine]

But he's an actor, he knows how he comes across. He must have done that for a reason.

[Scott Besant]

Look, he's a vaudevillian, right? He's a vaudevillian. He's a guy who got thrust into unusual and dangerous circumstances and has played a tough hand. And I think. But I think with President Trump. President Trump wants to end the war and so he. It needs to negotiate with both sides. And I think to some people that's outrageous.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Scott Besant]

Like the other day someone said, do you think Putin's a war criminal? I said, so what if he is? You still gotta negotiate with him.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Scott Besant]

We didn't end. I'm sure today that the Japanese in World War II would be considered war criminals, but we signed a treaty with them to end the war. You can't. Usually the people who start wars are not good people. You know that feeling when someone shows up for you just when you need it most? That's what Uber is all about. Not just a ride or dinner at your door. It's how Uber helps you show up for the moments that matter. Because showing up can turn a tough day around. Or it be could good one even better. Whatever it is, big or small, Uber is on the way. So you can be on yours. Uber on our way.

[Miranda Devine]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing.

[Scott Besant]

Mint Mobile unlimited premium wireless. 30. 30. Better get 30. Everybody better get 20. 20, 20. But get 20. 20. But get 15. 15. 15, 15. Just 15 bucks a month. Sold.

[Miranda Devine]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. New customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com President Trump, I think, is probably, to use George W. Bush's word, the most misunderestimated president we've had. I mean, do you see the method in what he does? To me, he's sort of operating on a number of different levels. It's not all chaos and craziness.

[Scott Besant]

Well, in game theory, which I've studied a lot, there's something called strategic uncertainty. President Trump creates a lot of strategic uncertainty. He creates a lot of optionality. The biggest misunderstanding about him is that is his love for people. I have a lot of progressive friends when I say this in the media. He regards himself as the mayor of America and he cares deeply about the 330 million Americans. We were taking an action at treasury, and I said, well, sir, this may result in 300 layoffs. Fine. It's up to you to find jobs for those people. I mean, he really, when we were at that rally in Pittsburgh with the steelworkers, I was fortunate enough to be with him the last night of his campaign in Pittsburgh and then on to Grand Rapids, which he didn't finish till three in the morning. Yeah, but it was incredible. Like, the steel workers are there, they've got their hats, they got their vests, they got their families, and they believe in him. But he has a strategy, and it's not a conventional strategy, but what conventional person ever done great things?

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

Does anybody think that Winston Churchill was conventional?

[Miranda Devine]

No.

[Scott Besant]

He's also so flexible in terms of the way he looks at things, the way we've just spent basically the past 24 hours in the Situation Room over the Iran, Israel conflict. And I can tell you that the American people should know and the American troops should know that Donald Trump is doing an incredible, incredible job looking after their interest in what could turn, without someone like him, could turn into a widespread conflict that U.S. soldiers and interests could get sucked into.

[Miranda Devine]

That's comforting to know for you. Your legacy. What do you hope to achieve at the end of your four years?

[Scott Besant]

That's a very good question, because what is difficult here at treasury is there's so much to do every day. And just if you were to look at the kind of statutory responsibilities of the Treasury Secretary. I also oversee the Social Security Trust Fund, new sovereign wealth fund, the sovereign wealth fund. So it's really, what I've done is taken a step back, and I assume that I will walk out of the Building in January of 2029. What are the three to five things that I would have liked to have done? So stabilize the US Finances and put that on a good trajectory that will make sure that we have another great 250 years bring back and make sure that Main street and Wall street have both done well, because Wall Street's had a great run and now it's Main Street's turn to also participate. And Wall Street Journal accused me of populist remarks. What's wrong with both doing well? And then the third is, I think, to lock in the US Dollar as the reserve currency for many more generations. And I got lots of ideas that we're working on on how to do that. I will plug a book. One thing I learned from my dad is I read constantly and there's a new book called King Dollar. A journalist who's followed treasury for about 40 years, and he talks about every time there was a narrative that the US Was going to lose reserve currency status, why it's never happened.

[Miranda Devine]

And because crypto, I mean, that seems to be a threat to the dollar, doesn't it?

[Scott Besant]

I think it's the opposite.

[Miranda Devine]

Oh, really?

[Scott Besant]

I think stablecoins could reinforce dollar supremacy because with stablecoins, stablecoins could end up being one of the largest buyers of U.S. treasuries or T bills. So all of a sudden, if you are using a stablecoin in Nigeria that's backed by the US dollar, you don't actually have to have dollars. It's on your phone, you can transact. So I think there's a very good chance that crypto is actually one of the things that locks in dollar supremacy.

[Miranda Devine]

And is that why it was crucial that Donald Trump get involved in crypto rather than trying to constrain it like Joe Biden?

[Scott Besant]

Well, I think constraints, to my little word, I think make it extinct. So this administration's commitment to digital assets, it's innovation because there's so many other things that happen around digital assets. And also it's one of those things that it's one of the most important phenomena that's happening in the world and, and the US Just ignored it. And what we are doing, the very good bill that may get voted in the Senate next week, week after that, will give us will bring crypto and digital assets and make the US the leader. So just as we're the leader in AI, just as we are the leader in biomedicine, we will become the leader in this on the technology side. And here, led by treasury, led by some great leadership and the Senate. And this is bipartisan. There may be 16 Democrats who are going to vote with Republicans on this bill. So it tells you how the inclination toward crypto was there. It was just the White House. The previous administration wanted to kill it. So once we get this bill passed the U.S. we can put our best standards and practices out to the world. It won't be something that happens in a Caribbean island. It won't be something that is used for nefarious purposes or primarily used for nefarious purposes in the Middle East.

[Miranda Devine]

It sounds like it's just another of the messes that you've had to clean up from, from the previous, from the Biden administration and your predecessor, Janet Yellen.

[Scott Besant]

There's a lot of low hanging fruit. There's a lot of low hanging fruit. And one of the things with low hanging fruit was bringing everybody back to the office. Work from home wasn't working. And people like being back at the treasury building. And I tell you, one of the great upside surprises for me has been the professional staff, the career staff here at Treasury. I would have hired most of the people I've met in my private business.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. Well, that's comforting.

[Scott Besant]

They're fantastic. I need a 25 page report this weekend. With pleasure.

[Miranda Devine]

So two quick final questions. I asked President Trump as well. They're sort of a bit off piste, but so he says that the one quality that he looks for in people that he thinks is a recipe for success is energy. Is there something that you see in people that makes you think that they're going to be something, be successful?

[Scott Besant]

Yeah, I always say, and I think I'm just a more nuanced version of what he just said. I call it love of the game. Michael Jordan would have a great basketball game and most basketball players have in their contract that they can't play for fun. He had a love of the game clause, so he would actually go out and shoot baskets afterwards.

[Miranda Devine]

Really?

[Scott Besant]

Or he would play on weekends. So in my investment business, I would always try to tell, like, do you dream about the currency markets? Do you dream about the stock market? Are you always trying to find a new angle to make money? So it's like love of the game, all consuming.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. And parenting tips. I mean, Donald Trump is a great father, obviously, because he's got such a good relationship with his adult kids. So do you have parenting tips?

[Scott Besant]

Time? Nothing. I remember talking to you once and you were taking your boys to rugby in Paris, I think.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

And it's just, I think there's Nothing that makes up for time. I was fortunate that I had time. Also the ability to tell you. I told my son he had maybe a little wobble one term in academics and I said, look, my self worth isn't whether you get into the Ivy League or not. I have a pretty sound ego. I just don't want you in four years to not have choices. So trying not to live your life for your kids or what you didn't do. So yeah, I think it's time and just let them do what they want.

[Miranda Devine]

To do to get their own love of the game.

[Scott Besant]

Yeah. Help them find what's the game they love.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Scott Besant]

What's the game they love. My son just started rowing and it's changed his life. Really changed his life.

[Miranda Devine]

My son's rowed as well.

[Scott Besant]

It's amazing discipline, Amazing discipline that we were together over the Christmas break and he was in kind of his athletic gear and I said, where are you going? He goes, no, I've already been to the gym. I was there at 6.

[Miranda Devine]

Oh, wow. How old is he?

[Scott Besant]

15.

[Miranda Devine]

That's amazing.

[Scott Besant]

That was amazing. I said, will the alien who's stolen my son please return him. Actually, I kind of like this son. Yes, that's wonderful. He found what he liked.

[Miranda Devine]

Isn't that great?

[Scott Besant]

Yeah, same with my daughter.

[Miranda Devine]

Right. Well, thank you so much for your time and I know you're incredibly busy, but we really appreciate it.

[Scott Besant]

Thank you. I got a feeling this is going to be a long running series you're doing.

[Miranda Devine]

I think so.

[Scott Besant]

You're really great at this.

[Miranda Devine]

Oh, thank you. If you missed it, go back and check out our interview with President Donald Trump last week. And don't forget to hit the like and subscribe buttons. I'm Miranda Devine. Make sure to join us next week for another edition of Podforce One.