Rudy Giuliani: Mamdani is killing New York

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Pod Force One
Host: Miranda Devine (New York Post)
Guest: Rudy Giuliani (Former New York City Mayor)
Episode Title: Rudy Giuliani: Mamdani is killing New York
Date: April 8, 2026

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Overview

In this candid, extended interview, Miranda Devine sits down with former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani to discuss the state of New York under its current leadership, the descent into lawlessness and disorder, the consequences of liberal immigration policies, and Giuliani's role in exposing alleged Biden family corruption. Giuliani reflects on his mayoral years, his philosophy of governance, the rise in crime and terrorism concerns, and his views on the Democratic Party and mainstream media. The conversation is wide-ranging, critical, and deeply personal, providing both political analysis and behind-the-scenes stories from pivotal moments in U.S. history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. State of New York City Post-Giuliani

Timestamps: 00:29–05:12

• Miranda Devine opens by lamenting the current state of New York, comparing current leadership unfavorably to Giuliani’s era.
• Giuliani describes his inability to express the decline of the city, sharing an emotional anecdote about meeting a longtime New Yorker grieving for the lost golden age.
• Economic Achievements: Giuliani discusses his historic tax cuts, working with Peter Vallone (City Council Speaker) to reduce the hotel occupancy tax and overall taxation—citing the Laffer Curve and practical impacts on city revenue.

  “Within two years, we were making more money from the much lower tax than from the higher tax…” (03:15, Giuliani)

Notable Quote

“My whole life as a lawyer is about words... but I don't know how to describe it. Maybe I can do it this way...” (00:53, Giuliani about New York’s decline)

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2. Crime and Policing in New York

Timestamps: 05:12–08:50

• Giuliani discusses how he tackled crime through "broken windows" policing and innovative technology like Compstat.
• Emphasizes the reduction in police officers (from 41,000 in his era to 34,000 currently) and increased complexity of policing today.
• Details close cooperation with federal agencies and local knowledge about criminal elements.

Notable Quote

“It’s really the combination of the two things that brought crime down: Broken windows theory and the Compstat program.” (05:45, Giuliani)

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3. Terrorism, Policing, and Understaffing

Timestamps: 08:50–13:06

• Discussion turns to terrorism risk in New York, citing recent attacks and how the city is understaffed and under-resourced.
• Giuliani and Devine praise the post-9/11 collaboration between NYPD and the FBI, and contrast it with recent defunding and legislative changes.
• Current mayor (Mamdani) criticized for not hiring promised police, instead relying on “violence interrupters.”

Notable Quote

“One way to visualize it is there is somewhere between seven and eight, 9,000 people walking the streets... that would be sitting in jail if I were the mayor or Bloomberg were the mayor.” (12:23, Giuliani)

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4. Immigration, Crime, and National Security

Timestamps: 13:06–23:00

• Giuliani argues the current immigration wave dramatically differs from previous periods, with a disproportionately high number of criminals.
• Draws historical parallels to Castro's Mariel boatlift, alleging similar tactics by Maduro of Venezuela.
• Discusses the logistical and policy failures, e.g., unvetted migrants being flown into New York at night, giving them better accommodations than veterans or the homeless.
• Devine and Giuliani criticize sanctuary city policies and federal relocation efforts.

Notable Quote

“These are disproportionately large number of criminals and I’m afraid to say a disproportionately large number of perverts, pedophiles, women abusers, the cultures they come out of.” (13:23, Giuliani)

• On voluntary departures:

  “That process only happens if they’re frightened… all this false, exaggerated publicity about ICE… it really scares ‘em.” (19:44, Giuliani)

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5. Biden Administration and Open Borders

Timestamps: 27:10–31:36

• Giuliani suggests Biden’s mental decline enabled far-left open border policies, implemented systematically by his advisers and party.
• Accuses Democrats of being competent only at “criminal enterprises,” referencing historic corruption (“Boss Tweed”) and recent methods for distributing migrants nationwide.

Notable Quote

“There’s something fundamentally different about the Democrat party now… there’s evil at the core of the party.” (29:30, Giuliani)

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6. Allegations of Biden Family Corruption: Burisma, Ukraine, and the “Laptop from Hell”

Timestamps: 33:11–47:18

• Giuliani recounts how he helped expose the Hunter Biden laptop, facing immense resistance from the mainstream media (including the WSJ) and details collaborating with Steve Bannon and Bob Costello.
• Explains the structure of alleged Biden family bribery, using “point man” assignments in Iraq and Ukraine to enrich family members.
• Details the alleged “quid pro quo” involving withholding US aid to force the firing of Ukrainian prosecutor Viktor Shokin (who was investigating Burisma).
• Discusses attempts to bring evidence to media and politicians, and the lack of interest or willingness to pursue the matter pre-election.

Notable Quotes

“The laptop made it about as easy to prosecute a conspiracy, Rico, whatever you want. Case.” (37:25, Giuliani)
“He took massive bribes... I put together a case before the laptop called the point man case...” (37:36, Giuliani)
“It was a self-contained bribery confession.” (43:59, on Biden’s public statement)

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7. Media, Law Enforcement, and Political Double Standards

Timestamps: 47:18–59:23

• Giuliani laments the decline of the Southern District of NY and alleges its passivity in not investigating or flipping key Biden associates.
• Criticizes FBI operations, including the raid on his home, refusal to take the Biden laptop, and classifies Trump Derangement Syndrome as a “major mental illness” among officials.
• Discusses being targeted both legally and in the media, and recounts interference from within the Trump administration (e.g., General Kelly cutting off Trump’s advisors).

Notable Quotes

“Trump derangement syndrome has now gone from a minor mental illness to a major one. It’s a really major mental illness and it warps all your rationality.” (51:38, Giuliani) “They pre-bunked our story and… they were spying on you.” (56:14, Devine)

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8. Personal Reflections, Legacy, and Future

Timestamps: 63:17–78:53

• Giuliani discusses his history as a prosecutor, his mixed feelings about not being Attorney General or Secretary of State, and his rationale for becoming mayor.
• Explains the shift in his own political philosophy, embracing a more Republican identity after observing Democratic urban corruption.
• Speaks emotionally about his love for New York and his heartbreak at its current state.
• Details ongoing legal struggles and personal resilience, emphasizing his continuing media and advocacy work.

Notable Quotes

“My whole reaction to my heart is broken. Yes. The situation with New York in a pure way, was a love affair.” (75:42, Giuliani) “I always worried about making this move… but part-time now I love it full time. And people say to me, well... aren’t you lonely? I said, there are more New Yorkers in Palm Beach than…” (75:07, Giuliani)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On NYC’s decline:

  “Everything you did has been ruined now.” (Anecdote, 00:53, recounted by Giuliani)

• On Democrats:

  “There’s evil at the core of the party. And then so you have the evil that emanates. Then you have the thing that we always remember about the Holocaust… good people not paying attention and just going along.” (29:30, Giuliani)

• On Biden and Hunter:

  “He took massive bribes… Four times he was made the point man for Obama… United States gets screwed, Biden’s family gets rich.” (37:36/39:53, Giuliani)

• On being targeted and media censorship:

  “The FBI told Twitter now X and Facebook to censor our story before we even started writing it.” (56:14, Devine)

• On his mayoral legacy:

  “Nobody loves it more than I do… a love affair.” (75:42, Giuliani)

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Important Timestamps / Segments

• 00:29–05:12: Reflections on NYC’s transformation, tax policy successes
• 05:12–08:50: Crime-fighting philosophy — “broken windows”, Compstat
• 08:50–13:06: Terrorism, policing, violent crime, defunding debate
• 13:06–23:00: Immigration, historical parallels, sanctuary cities
• 27:10–31:36: Biden, open borders, and party direction
• 33:11–47:18: Burisma, Biden “laptop from hell” exposé
• 47:18–59:23: Media/FBI dynamics, legal targeting, “Trump Derangement Syndrome”
• 63:17–78:53: Political philosophy, heartbreak over NYC, personal resilience

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Tone & Style

The conversation is direct, emotional, and combative, featuring Giuliani’s unfiltered takes and vivid personal recollections. Miranda Devine’s tone is supportive, at times incredulous, and fully engaged in the details of both local and national crisis points.

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Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode provides a deeply personal and politically charged account of New York’s transformation, the evolution of American urban governance, and the machinations behind national corruption scandals. Giuliani’s stories of reform, regret, confrontation, and personal vindication offer a unique, if highly partisan, window into the intersection of law, politics, and media in 21st-century America.

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For listeners seeking to understand the worldview and ongoing influence of Rudy Giuliani, as well as the ideological battle over crime, immigration, and corruption in America’s largest city, this episode is both a historical document and a provocative polemic.

Transcript

[Miranda Devine]

Welcome to the Pod ForceOne podcast. I'm Miranda Devine. Today we're in Palm Beach, Florida with former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Mayor Rudy Giuliani, thank you so much for joining Pod Force One. It's a huge honour to have you and I've wanted to interview you like this for so long.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Oh, I'm so glad we are. I mean, I love the show.

[Miranda Devine]

Thank you.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And you know, your column is one of the best, if not the best, in America.

[Miranda Devine]

Thank you. So I wanted to start with New York, your city, the city you saved from crime and disorder way back in the 80s. And now look what's happened with Mamdani. We've had de Blasio drove it into the ground and now we have this communist mayor. How do you think it's going so far after less than a year?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I don't know if I have words to describe it adequately. My whole life as a lawyer is about words and being able to express things and written books. I don't know how to describe it. Maybe I can do it this way. About three years ago, before I left New York, this man came up to me. He looked very upset and he looked right at me and he said, mayor Giuliani, it must be awful to know that everything you did has been ruined now. I thought he was being hostile and then all of a sudden I see a tear or two in his eye. He was probably about 80 or something and he put his arms out, I grabbed him and I hugged him. Both there crying. I couldn't dispute that. I mean, I was very fortunate with Mike Bloomberg. Now Mike Bloomberg and I politically have a totally different orientation on the world. There are things he did I never would have done. I'm sure there are things I did that he never would have done. But on the core things, the things that you're real like safety, reasonably good economics. He was a good mayor. And I would say you could take that 20 years. And I know the history of New York City pretty well. That could be the golden age. I mean, that could be. We never had less crime. We never had a bigger surplus. I'm not ever sure we ever had a surplus. We never reduced taxes. First day I reduced taxes, I was in office about four months. My first budget, I did a small tax reduction because I had a city council that was like, now 45 Dems and six Republicans. How am I going to get a tax reduction? But I had a great speaker, Peter Vallone. It was a pure old fashioned Ronald Reagan. Speaker McCormick kind of working relationship. So he put a little tax deduction in for me. Hotel occupancy tax. My deputy mayor, who was my best friend, passed on. Now, Peter Powers walks into my office and said, mayor, I want to congratulate you. You set a record. I said, what record did I set? He said, you just passed the largest tax reduction in the history of New York City. I looked at him and I said, peter, you got to be kidding me. He said, well, it's the only one.

[Miranda Devine]

And that's the only one.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Oh, I did. I did many right. I actually reduced taxes. The net taxation was about a third less. The hotel occupancy tax I knocked down to almost nothing. And then. And that was the key to my success, because within two years, we were making more money from the much lower tax than from the higher tax, which was great for all the economically ignorant liberals who. I would go with a chart, and I would show them how much they were getting on their 21% sales tax, because they had gotten up to 21%. And I would show them what you get under 8%. And we were, at some point, three years in, we were making twice as much money.

[Miranda Devine]

That's what Larry Kudlow is always talking about, the Laffer Curve. The more you tax, the less you.

[Rudy Giuliani]

It wasn't my idea. I'd worked in the Reagan administration for eight years, really, and I was very much a disciple of that. Laffer helped me do it. I actually would have to say that to a very large extent, my success as mayor comes about because when I had a tough question, I would say, what would Ronald Reagan do? And very often I worked there. So I'd call his people for advice on how to do things. And really, they're not strokes of genius, they're common sense. If I raise taxes, at that point, we had a deficit which would be equivalent to what we have right now, just in different dollars, earlier dollars. If I raise taxes, I was going to lose another 10% of the people. And then two years later, I have to raise taxes again, and then I'd have to raise it again. So where's it going? It's going to hell. That's where it's going.

[Miranda Devine]

So what would you. I mean, the thing that you're most known for and praised for is that you got crime down. And I lived in New York before your. You came in as mayor, and it was. There were no go zones. It was a scary place. And after you came in and did your broken windows, I guess policing theory, it was transformed, but now it's back Almost to the bad old days. What would you do if you were mayor tomorrow, if you were just made mayor? What would be the top three things?

[Rudy Giuliani]

With a few exceptions, because the world has changed. Yeah, I do the same things I did. And one of them would work much better and much faster. And that would be the Compstat program. It's really the combination of the two things that brought crime down. Broken windows theory and the Compstat program. And that was statistics and sufficient police. I added 5,000 additional police officers. An example. I have 41,000 police officers. They now have 34,000. Right. That's a big difference. And I would say it is a much more complex city to police now. All the unknowns in the city. I had 400,000 illegals in New York City, probably 401,222. We knew all of them. Yeah, I was annoyed. But over it because I ran the federal government side of it before for it. I knew they could only deport 2,000 to 3,000 a year. So I had agreed with Koch from the federal side. And Koch was an eminently common sense mayor. He said, look, I'd like to get rid of all of them. I can't. So why don't you work with me and we'll come up with a program and I'll give you the worst of the worst. If you have two or three thousand, you might not waste them on let's get the people that helped me out of here. Made sense. I did that for all those years I was a U.S. attorney. So when I became mayor, that's what I did. I had two to 3,000 slots. So if you look back, I had to let illegal stay here. But done no good to give them some guy who's working in the back of a restaurant. Maybe he shouldn't be here. Maybe he commits small crimes. When I had murderers and drug dealers, but we got rid of all that. So the illegals were producing no crime for us. But the difference between then and now is I didn't know every single one of them. But my cops probably knew every single one of them. Like when 911 happened. The first thing Bernie Kerra did before I even called your police commissioner was closed down bridges and tunnels to New Jersey. Why did he do that? He did it because most of our Muslim extremist problems came from New Jersey. The original bombing of the World Trade center was organized by the Blind Sheikh in New Jersey. We had undercover agents in those places. In fact, we had them in for eight years. And they weren't discovered until Mike Bloomberg was the mayor, and he got blamed for it. They couldn't understand how a man who had the sensitivity to human rights that he had would have him. So I just. I went on television, I put him there, and they said, well, now we understand it.

[Miranda Devine]

So Mamdani is there now. Crime. He's. He's not adding the new police that his predecessor, Eric Adams, was going to. I think it was 4,000. He has violence interrupters. And we've just seen four terrorist attacks across the country. Some were successful, some weren't. The one in New York, two ISIS Allegiance guys suspects. They threw improvised bombs that they had made with shrapnel in them, and they wanted to create a terrorist attack worse than the Boston Marathon bombing. And this was right outside Gracie Mansion. And what does the mayor do? He downplays it. Is New York at risk of a terrorist attack now more than before?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yes. No question about it. It started with de Blasio. I mean, after September 11th, I remember being asked, oh, gosh, numerous times, but particularly, let's say around the anniversary of September 11, I went to an event, a memorial event, or when they have the reading. I've almost asked the Same question for 10, 12 years in a row, is New York safer now than it was on or before September 11th? And I could say for most of that time, yeah, it is safer. We learned from it. We built from it. Ray Kelly and Mike Bloomberg, and this is an area in which I supported them completely, had developed the best joint terrorism task force in the country. Now, we were the first. So we had a lot more institutional knowledge than any of the other task forces and the FBI and the police that often don't get along in that task force because of the seriousness of their work. And they're at risk more than you think, because most of what you do, what they do, you never find out about.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah, undercover work.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah. And they get close. The point is they get much closer than the normal cop and FBI agent. But they made them into even better. He also added 3, 400, 500 to the task force. I knew because I would talk to them and they would call me times for advice. They interrupted some things that I taught myself to forget. That's what the CIA taught me about classified information. You have to forget it. So I was very comfortable two, three years in. I was very, very comfortable that they had the city as safe as it could be. Could there be an attack? Of course. So I would say that. I would say I am comfortable and we're the biggest target, but we've got the best resources and the mayor and the police commissioner and the FBI here, whatever the problems elsewhere, work beautifully together. That all changed with the Bosnia.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And then of course we did defund the police department. We took a billion dollars out of the police department. Never even restored. Eric tried to do it constantly, restore the money. Even before he made his big switch. I think Eric had like a Koch moment. A lot of mayor, it happens for a lot of good people who become mayors who are Democrats, they become conservative because the necessities of the job push you in that direction. But even before that, because he was a former police officer, he probably spent every day trying to get those cops back. And it's remarkable that he and the commission were able to have an effect on crime with the resources that they don't have and the laws which create crime. One way to visualize it is there is somewhere between seven and eight, 9,000 people walking the streets of the city of New York today that would be sitting in jail if I were the mayor or Bloomberg were the mayor. And I'm talking about violent criminals.

[Miranda Devine]

Well, like we had the illegal migrant the other day. Multiple huge rap sheep throws an 83 year old veteran in front of the subway and he dies nine days later. You know, why is he on the street?

[Rudy Giuliani]

If he had been on the street when I was mayor or Mike was, it would have been just a total mistake. And when I was U.S. attorney, those are exactly the guys that Koch used to like to grab. And sometimes he called me himself, he'd say, we got this guy, they used to come from Mexico then all the time. Which also meant a lot of them came into work. Right. The other thing to understand about this group of bidenistas, they're a very, very different kind of mix of illegal immigrants. These are disproportionately large number of criminals and I'm afraid to say a disproportionately large number of perverts, pedophiles, pedophiles, women abusers, the cultures they come out of.

[Miranda Devine]

Was that deliberate, do you think? That's what Donald Trump seems to think?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Well, I think it was deliberate on the part of Venezuela Maduro opened. Yeah. And I can't. Whoever was a disciple of Castro did what Castro did and we seem, we have so little knowledge of history, it's terrible. This is what Castro did at the Mario Bolift. I mean it's just a complete repeat. And Maduro is a disciple of open

[Miranda Devine]

your jails and your mental institutions.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Made a speech once, fluff head, not think it send me all of your people from Cuba. They belong here. Probably true. Castro said, okay, peanut farmer, here's what I'm going to do. Let's start off with the insane asylums for the homicidal insane, completely crazy maniacs that not only kill you, they want to eat you. 25,000 prisoners, smartly, because he was a lot smarter than Maduro, he mixed him in with 100,000 wonderful people. Right. It took a while to figure it out. It took a while to pick it up because everybody was so happy. The Cuban community, which was beloved at this point. Right. The Cuban community is getting their people back. Isn't this wonderful? Oh, maybe. Castro softened. And then about four or five months later, Miami, which had been a quiet vacation town that Jackie Gleason made famous, all of a sudden it starts to lead America in murder. And then they start to take a look and these people are from Cuba. From Cuba.

[Miranda Devine]

From Cuba.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And they're just the opposite. So I worked that for four years. So I know the statistics. Basically, it's about 130,000 people, literally 100,000 of the best people you're going to find, and 30,000Americans of the worst criminals.

[Miranda Devine]

So with the Biden, say 20 million that came in 15. 20 million.

[Rudy Giuliani]

That's not a Biden allowed. That could be the number.

[Miranda Devine]

So of that, what proportion do you think? Is it similar? Like 30%, 25%.

[Rudy Giuliani]

When I looked at. Cause it is wrong to look at the arrest numbers, the arrest numbers in Minneapolis, when they were publishing them all in series. But I would go through them all, and I did a sort of back of the envelope calculation that about 40% of the people they arrested had serious sexual assault crimes mixed in with everything else.

[Miranda Devine]

Wow.

[Rudy Giuliani]

So maybe that's disproportionate, but that's going to make up 20, 30%. I wouldn't be surprised if it's at least a third. If we're talking at least a third of some of really serious criminals. If we're talking about people who violate the law, probably half, maybe more people. Shoplifters, shoplifting. Driving without a license. Driving without knowing how to drive.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I mean, remember the city during the campaign? I think it was J.D. vance. It was in Ohio. He located a city where he said that Haitian people were eating cats and dogs. Cats and dogs.

[Miranda Devine]

Eating the cats.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Eating the cats and dogs. And that turned out to either turn out not to be provable. Right. The city itself, though, was a disaster. They had to send the National Guard into the city because nobody could drive in the City, it was. A large number of Haitian immigrants were sent there. The governor had a rule that he would just give illegals a driving license

[Miranda Devine]

because then they could vote.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, but you don't just give me a driver's license. I got to go take a test. Yeah. At least find out if they don't have to put the car on. So, literally, in this town, they had about eight months of casual debt at a terrible one on Christmas Eve, that Christmas, a woman, typical suburban home, she's putting out the trash in her driveway, and this car comes right up on the driveway, hits her, knocks her over, knocks over all the trash cans, basically squishes her under the car. The guy didn't know how to. He didn't know how to drive a car. He was teaching himself how to drive a car.

[Miranda Devine]

And look at the trucks, the semi trailers that are driving on our freeways.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And the governor vehemently denied the allegations about eating cats and stuff. But then all of a sudden, he was very embarrassed because he had to send the National Guard in to take care of the traffic problems.

[Miranda Devine]

So really, you're talking about just in terms of criminals. If you're saying, say 30% of sexual perverts, et cetera, rapists, murderers, 30%, we're talking about 5 to 7 million that Biden let in. And look at the obstruction when Donald Trump is trying to deport them. Look at the defamation of ice. How do you cope with that? How do you deal with that?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Well, I mean, that's why. That's why the President had to do a crash program on getting as many people out as quickly as possible. And think about that. By doing that and taking the heat for it, which he has, that also produced a lot of the voluntary.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes. So I think he's got a million and a half hour.

[Rudy Giuliani]

That's a lot to get out. But that process only happens if they're frightened.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Rudy Giuliani]

If he just sat back and did the usual, you know, yes, we'll give you a parole date in 32. 2032, and come back in 2032. No, the minute they start reading about. And in some ways, all this false, exaggerated publicity about ice, which is horrible, the one good effect that it has, it really scares me. And I think that helped to produce a lot of the voluntary exits. You know, Miranda, one of the reasons why people misunderstand the statistics is they leave a category out that has to contain millions of people. When I, when I was in charge of the Immigration and Naturalization Service from 81 to 83, and it was a Mini version of this. We had the Mario Boliff. We had the Haitian 100,000amonth that were coming in. We always divided illegals into three categories. Category number one is somebody that we have picked up, have all the records, and we've made a decision. And the decision we made almost uniformly in Biden's case was to let him in on this fake parole. Yeah. So they go before a judge. Judge says, okay, first available date, two years from now. Then it'd be turned over to immigration again. And immigration would say, almost give them choices. Would you like to stay in Texas? Would you like to go to New York? Would you like to go to Colorado? Would you like to go. And New York was a big choice because one of the mistakes that Mayor Adams made, which he. I think he realized was a mistake very early on, he wanted. He created, like, a very hospitable.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Place for New York concierges.

[Miranda Devine]

Meeting the buses.

[Rudy Giuliani]

These better accommodations for them than our homeless.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Or worse than that. Or than tourists or veterans. Yeah. Much more. Yeah. So New York became one of the prime cities. The silly governor of Colorado. I call him Governor Felice Navidad because he appeared once singing Feliz Navidad, looking like a complete jerk. And he actually ended up with a disproportionate note. He advertised. He was advertising for people, and so was Tampon Tim advertising for people. So they tended to go to these places, and when they complain, they ask for it. They ask for these people so the government would send them. And then when Abbott and DeSantis came up with the great idea of disproportionately sending it to the sanctuary cities, which I think to people who are fair makes sense. Right? We don't want them. You want them. Here they are. Like when Desantis sent them to Senator Martha's Vineyard's Vineyard. Yeah. I thought that was one of the most ingenious things, and I actually was shocked that they were gone in 24 hours. I thought at least he'd make a pretend. It's a pretty big place with a lot of places you could put these people. At least pretend they threw them out. Like, shoot, we don't want. These people are brown. Get them out of here.

[Mike Slater]

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[Jillian Michaels]

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[Miranda Devine]

in New York, though, it wasn't just, I think Abbott's buses from Texas were a drop in the ocean compared to the midnight flights that were coming from the border from El Paso with hundreds of illegal migrants on them caught up

[Rudy Giuliani]

in Westchester, 2 o', clock, 3 o'

[Miranda Devine]

clock in the morning. And the reason we found out was because pilots were notic. People who lived nearby were noticing these planes coming in late. They disgorged them onto three buses and send them to the, you know, tri state area where they would disappear. And when we called the Biden administration about this, we were told they were children. But I saw them coming off the planes at 2 in the morning and said, my photographer, they were not children, they were military agents.

[Rudy Giuliani]

They should go to jail for the child abuse and the trafficking. Biden, could you make a case? I think I probably mean that symbolically. Yeah. No, you couldn't. I don't think you could make a case. Certainly the statute of limitations would stop you now and they may be a little too remote, but it was an indecent, inhumane thing to do and they had to know how quickly they were doing it without any vetting. The judges, after all, do this for a living. I mean, I can smell criminals when you're in this business. After a while, maybe you're wrong 1 out of 10 times, but most of the times you're right.

[Miranda Devine]

So the judges are criminal.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Had to know. They had to know. No, they were just tired. They stopped doing. When you say like the people that came in that we processed, forget that process. We didn't process. We didn't have time to process.

[Miranda Devine]

It's too many people.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah. You think they all asked for asylum? After a while we just, so I just, we just wrote it down. Asylum Asylum, asylum, asylum, asylum, asylum. When they go to trial, asylum cases win anywhere from about 4 to 8%. Almost any country that you're talking about. I mean, it would have to be. It would have to be Iran, and you'd have to be known in Iran. You'd have to be part of the MEK or you'd have to be part of the dissident groups of the pmoi or just some Iranian who left. They got too much to worry about to worry about him. And most of them leave. The ones who leave for a decent reason are leaving because they're poor and they want to improve their lives, which is a wonderful thing. But we have a process for that that protects us and that allows us to get people that will improve our society. There's no right to come to America. You don't have a right to come here.

[Miranda Devine]

So why did you think that Joe Biden opened the borders? Because that was willful. It was deliberate, it was systematic with majorcas to hide the problem from the American people by shuffling all these people into the different states.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Well, you and I both know Joe Biden probably better than most people know Joe Biden. And there are very few times I'm going to even partially defend him. But I do think this was a bit of a process of his being sonile. I think even a Joe Biden would not have gone that far if he was focusing just to let everybody in, everybody in. Maybe he would have. His party was there. They were talking for 10 years about completely open borders even before he got into office. I can remember calls for the destruction of ice during the 2016 election.

[Miranda Devine]

And remember the beauty contest with the Democratic candidates before 2020 all put their hands up about free Medicare for illegal migrants.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah. So I think what happened is if Biden had been compass menace, he may have resisted a little, and he would have done it more incompetently the way Obama did many things in conflict. Remember when obamacare came out, his biggest program and the computers all went down? It took another three months. The other things Democrats can't do, they can't manage. With a few exceptions, they don't know how to do the work of being an executive. And why is that? Because they have totally unrealistic ideas. And to run an organization, you have to have practical ideas, and they have ideas that don't work.

[Miranda Devine]

But they're very competent when it comes to rigging elections and, well, it goes

[Rudy Giuliani]

back to Boss Tweed and they were

[Miranda Devine]

very competent when it came to bringing in illegal migrants and in a very systematic way Removing them from the border as quickly as possible and secreting them in every community in the country. That was a military style operation. Very well executed. So they're good when they want to be.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah. And the tragedy of it is. And sometimes you even check yourself saying this because it's hard to believe where they seem to be good at criminal enterprises. Yeah. I mean, that's what they seem to be able to carry out. It took me the longest time to come to the conclusion. I know there's a pretty stark conclusion, but it took me a long time to come to the conclusion that there's something fundamentally different about the Democrat party now, maybe not seen since they were the party of slavery. There's evil at the core of the party. And then so you have the evil that emanates. Then you have the thing that we always remember about the Holocaust as an example. Good people not paying attention and just going along. So you have a party of people that have evil intentions for this country. Mondami for sure. Aoc. So many.

[Miranda Devine]

Obama.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Absolutely. Although he hides it more.

[Miranda Devine]

Biden?

[Rudy Giuliani]

No evil in the sense of more traditional evil. Like I'm going to steal everything that isn't nailed down. I think Biden was your typical sleazy American low class crook who made it to the top.

[Miranda Devine]

Grifter.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, he made it to the top and he got lucky. Biden may have. May have taken more bribes than any American president just by force of circumstances.

[Miranda Devine]

Do you think he was owned by China? Certainly. His family got millions of dollars.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, you look at him as president. He unwound inexplicably against the objections of the FBI. The China Initiative that was.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Had.

[Miranda Devine]

Had already had 100 prosecutions of academics who were stealing America's intellectual property, spying on universities. And he closed that.

[Rudy Giuliani]

You could make up a chart. I think we all remember this from the first. Was it the first impeachment attempt? Quid pro quo.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Rudy Giuliani]

So on the quid part, there's 8 million, 10 million.

[Miranda Devine]

20 million.

[Rudy Giuliani]

20 million. The thing that's intriguing to me is I was told by several prosecutors there that they're offshore bank accounts. And we had a woman that was willing to give up the numbers and the. And she wanted to go into the witness protection program.

[Miranda Devine]

That was Ukraine.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, yeah. Bob. Bob and I gave this information in late January of 2020. Of 2020. And we gave it to the U.S. attorney in Pittsburgh, Scott Brady. Yeah, yeah. And he was very excited about it. And for the first week or two they were calling Bob. And in fact, Bob was Getting annoyed. They were just driving him crazy. He couldn't get the stuff on time. And then about three or four days into it later, he comes to see me. They're not calling me anymore, and they won't take my phone calls. And then we realized it was deep six. But she had the numbers of the offshore accounts, and what she wanted was the witness protection program and some money in exchange, which the FBI does all the time. It would have been a very safe deal. What we call you wouldn't have to buy a pig and a poke because you wouldn't have to give her the money until she gave you the numbers. Or. I used to do deals like this all the time, but you're trying to get a president. So she'll give you three numbers as a sign of good faith, and you'll go and you'll look and there'll be three underlings. But close enough to Biden, that makes it clear she has Biden's numbers. Then you make the deal and she gives them all to you.

[Miranda Devine]

Well, let's go back to.

[Rudy Giuliani]

So they think they. Yeah, they think there's about 8 or 10 million dollars.

[Miranda Devine]

So let's go back then to the beginning of Biden, which is really. I mean, you were the recipient of the laptop from hell, the hard drive from John Paul Mac Isaac Hunter, Biden's laptop, that he abandoned in Delaware at the laptop repair shop. And the FBI had the hard Drive from December 2019.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I didn't know that. No.

[Miranda Devine]

But in August of 2020, you receive the hard drive from John Paul Mac Isaac, and you and Bob Costello, your lawyer, then did your due diligence on the information to ascertain that it was legitimately showed Biden corruption in an extensive form. And then one night, late at night, I get a phone call from Bob, your lawyer, and he says, I've got something for you. Sends me some screenshots from the laptop. And it was a bombshell story. And my editor, Col Allen, loved it and knows you very well and trusted you. And so the rest is history, you know.

[Rudy Giuliani]

You know, we had been rejected.

[Miranda Devine]

That's what I wanted to.

[Rudy Giuliani]

We had been rejected.

[Miranda Devine]

I was the last cab off the rank.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I proudly would say not the last. But first of all, I didn't do all of it. I did some. Bob did some, and Steve Bannon did some.

[Miranda Devine]

He was brought in at the end for the China stuff.

[Rudy Giuliani]

He was brought in at the end when we realized it was China, and we'll get back to China because China is unbelievable, horrible situation. But we Were turned down even by your sister, brother, whatever you call publication, the Wall Street Journal. They liked the story, but they were

[Miranda Devine]

frightened because it was three weeks before the election. Yeah. October 2020.

[Rudy Giuliani]

We had gotten the FBI to. We got former FBI agents who were willing to certify it, but you guys did it on your own, which was a smart thing to do. And we could have supplied you with the people that did what you did, but it was much better that I like the idea that you did. Well, when Bob talked to you, he said to me, I think we got the right one now. I said, we've said that three times. Three times we said that and we were thrown out. It's crazy, but the reality is. So all that did was confirm what I had known now for a year and a half. Have been trying to get to them for a year and a half. Confirm and expand.

[Miranda Devine]

Get to the media or get to the authorities?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Oh, I had given my outline of Ukraine to. That was written and together by 2019. By 2019. By early 2019.

[Miranda Devine]

So the allegations that you were making was that Joe Biden was corrupt. His son was getting millions of dollars from this corrupt energy company, Burisma. Yes. To get the prosecutor general of Ukraine fired because he was investigating Burisma, a man by the name of Viktor Shokin. Now, there was evidence on the laptop that basically augmented every. All your allegations. And the first email that we published was an email between a Burisma executive in Ukraine and Hunter Biden thanking him for the meeting with his father. Joe Biden, then the vice president in Washington.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Right.

[Miranda Devine]

Which we didn't know until after the election was at a restaurant, Cafe Milano in Washington in a private room with the Russians and all of Hunter's clients from Mexico, Russia, Ukraine. So you had a part of the puzzle. The laptop added more bits of the jigsaw puzzle. And the story is out.

[Rudy Giuliani]

The laptop made it about as easy to prosecute a conspiracy, Rico, whatever you want. Case.

[Miranda Devine]

So what is the case against Joe

[Rudy Giuliani]

Biden that I've ever seen? He took massive bribes.

[Miranda Devine]

Well, his son and his brother.

[Rudy Giuliani]

His son and his. And then you have the whole group in it. I put together a case before the laptop called the point man case, because four times he was made the point man for Obama. I don't know what a point man is, but it's in basketball. The point guard, the guy runs the. He's like the quarterback in the basketball team, but for some reason, there's a nice convenience. And I always. When I did cases, I always looked for ways to make it easy for people to. So he originally he was appointment for Iraq, Joe Biden. And he had a very simple mission in Iraq. Iraq. His mission was to negotiate a Status of Forces agreement with the Iraq government that we basically control. I don't think we ever failed to get the Status of Forces Agreement. That means if we leave soldiers behind in a volatile situation, they get prosecuted by us, not by a government that might be partially terrorist. We can't leave our soldiers in that situation. And in a situation where we have control, that just never fails. But of course, as his fellow Secretary of Defense said, Biden never did anything. Right?

[Miranda Devine]

That's right.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Bill Gates never ever. He goes there, he negotiates with them, they throw him out. Comes back with no Status of Forces agreement, which means we have to leave Iraq completely. Now. That got a lot of Iranian dissidents killed. Who I was Iraqi Iranian dissidents who were in. Who were. Who were hiding in Iraq had protection from the American military. Someone like Jack Keane can tell you this story because he signed a lot of their. He signed a lot of their protective orders. 120 of them were killed because we didn't get that totally attributable to Joe Biden. He comes back, America gets nothing. Ah, but his brother gets a 25% peace of a billion dollar housing deal and as usual knows nothing about housing. So United States gets screwed, Biden's family gets rich.

[Miranda Devine]

It's the patent.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Now we go to Ukraine, right? Ukraine. We know to simplify Ukraine. Actually it's pretty simple. It's like the old fixes in. In New York Supreme Court Barisma was on trial for its life. They wanted to take everything away from Burisma. A very good reason to do it because it was a completely corrupt company put together by Mykola Zulszewski, who was a minister in the government. The previous, previous government, Russia aligned Energy or ecology or whatever. But he had control of the most. He had control of the land, of the oil and gas leases as they came up. He just gave them to his company. He got out of his company, theoretically he turned it over to his partner. His partner moved to Croatia, I'm sorry, Cyprus. And he turned, went from the number four company to the number one company and then he bailed out right before they all caved in and had to run away. Company was worth 40 billion, 30. $40 billion.

[Miranda Devine]

And why was that company after the Maidan revolution, when an America friendly government was installed. Pedro Poroshenko why was Burisma alone among all the companies that had operated under the previous Soviet aligned government. Why was Burisma allowed to continue to operate?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Well, first of all, it was the number one target to start with because it was the worst. It was the one that stood out. Everyone knew about Boris, A lot of them, they didn't know it was totally Russian oriented. So it was politically, completely adverse to the new government. I mean, Poroshenko turned out to be his own kind of crook, but he was very anti Russian. And Zhevsky was always very pro Russian.

[Miranda Devine]

Spoke Russian.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah. And I don't know why he didn't run away to Russia. Must be he screwed somebody that nobody. And they were going to kill him, but. And he had to save his company.

[Miranda Devine]

So when did they get involved with the CIA?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I think so. I think so. I really couldn't talk about that part. But he's asking around for basically, who can have more power than Poroshenko? Because Poroshenko hates me and he's going to take my company from me.

[Miranda Devine]

And the Serious Fraud Office in Britain had frozen his.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Correct, correct. And he paid some money, just 5 million or 10 million bribe for that. But in the course of asking around, they come back with Hunter and his company and his partner. And the long and short of it is this is perfect. What did Biden get appointed to do? He got appointed to run Ukraine, particularly the flow of money to Ukraine. And he's supposed to help them become honest. He's supposed to help them deal with their corruption and he's supposed to help them fight Russia. Now, he did the opposite on all three accounts. Right. As Poroshenko told me when I met him about fighting five months after Trump was in office, he said to me, you know, I did. I was very hard on President Trump and he probably hates me for the things that I said, but it is true. He's the first one that gave us guns with Biden. I think they wanted us to do it with slingshots. The Russians are attacking us, we have slingshots. He didn't help them fight the war. Number two, he certainly didn't do anything for corruption. He made them more corrupt. Right. But he was the perfect guy because he controlled Poroshenko and he knew that

[Miranda Devine]

at that time because he controlled the money, the international money.

[Rudy Giuliani]

The guy would have been dead without him. As he pointed out when he made that statement, that statement gets you about two thirds of the case.

[Miranda Devine]

Which statement?

[Rudy Giuliani]

The one that he made in front with the Atlantic Council. Yes, Atlantic Council. Group of left wing jerks. Because they're all porter for him. Yeah, I'm thinking to myself, how many of those guys are lawyers? When he finished that crazy sentence that he had there, or paragraph, he confessed. It was a self contained bribery confession. Yeah.

[Miranda Devine]

He said he, he threatened Poroshenko with withholding a billion dollars of US Aid unless you fire Viktor Shokin, the prosecutor general who was investigating Burisma and son of a bee, he fired him.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Now, the definition of bribery is offering something of value to influence official action. Offering or denying. So here, this was of total value. The country would have defaulted and Poroshenko would have been gone. So the guy was desperate for it. So he holds it out to him and he says, if you, if you take this, if you want this money, 1 billion, you have to take official action. Yeah. You have to remove your prosecutor general. And implicit in that is. And that wasn't implicit, they said it dropped the case.

[Miranda Devine]

Which they did.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Which they eventually did. Yeah.

[Miranda Devine]

A few months later, and Zlachevsky's off the hook, pays a little fine, he's free to come back to Ukraine.

[Rudy Giuliani]

All of that supposedly cost Slashevsky $100 million, of which about 20, theoretically. I mean, this is what the prosecutors told me from what they had seen in the file. I never saw this, so I can't be 100% sure of it. So I do know it's more than we have. I just don't know the exact amount. You mean more money? More money to the Bidens?

[Miranda Devine]

Oh, okay.

[Rudy Giuliani]

You know, even after, when he, Even after he was out of office, he would go to Ukraine, and the thought was they were still feeding him money.

[Miranda Devine]

After Trump won in 2016, Biden was there a few days before the inauguration,

[Rudy Giuliani]

day before, the day before, the four days, the five days before the inauguration. Four of those five days, he was collecting all his goodies in Ukraine. That's what he was doing, right? He was. He was sealing up the accounts. He was getting the move. And this woman could have testified to all of that.

[Bill O'Reilly]

Hey, Bill O'Reilly here. Please check out my new interview series. We'll do it live. Each Thursday, I sit down with the most influential people in America. We're a no spin chat, no script. Anything could happen. You can find. We'll do it on live on BillOriley.com, youTube, or wherever you download your podcast.

[Miranda Devine]

You interviewed Victor Shokin? I did, too. He struck me, the prosecutor general who was fired on Biden's behest, as a pretty honest man living in modest circumstances.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I had pictures. I had. I had an agency working with me. Not a government agency, a private Agency getting me information on this. And they had pictures of him driving in his car. I had pictures of his house before I ever even talked to him. And they're saying he's corrupt. And I'm saying to myself, he's a terribly incompetent corrupt guy because he's poor. I mean, I never saw it. And plus those guys wear it all over the place in Ukraine. There's nothing embarrassing about being a crook, right? I mean, they'll walk around with a ten thousand dollar medal.

[Miranda Devine]

And he was a cop like he was a hardcore career prosecutor.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Here's, here's what I asked around, you know, everybody I could think of and they said Shokan's a schlump because he looks like. Well, he's not actually. He's quite a smart man, but he looks a little like he's not. They roll $5,000 suit, $100,000 Rolex. He had a little car, a little house. So this guy had to be the most incompetent, corrupt guy. So if he was corrupt, it would have been the way they're all corrupt. Like he might have gotten kickbacks for appointments, right? So the Prosecutor General appoints everybody all over the country. It's almost instinctual behavior that you pay for that in Ukraine. I mean, corruption is built in, in a way that we. In the way it's built in, believe it or not, in the old Democrat cities where New York is like that. New York has corruption patterns that are 170, 180 years old. And they've been doing it for that period of time. When I was a prosecutor, I prosecuted the New York City Building Department twice. Probably put 110 of their people in jail. As a prosecutor, I selected as my head of investigations Howard Wilson, who was one of my best prosecutors and investigators who knew all about them.

[Miranda Devine]

So the Southern District of New York, let's go back to that because that was involved in covering up for the Bidens. You used to be the U.S. attorney. You ran the Southern District. It's the most, it's called the sovereign District of New York. It's the most prestigious officer did their,

[Rudy Giuliani]

their most significant prosecutions ever.

[Miranda Devine]

You locked up the five families, the Mafia bosses. They put a, almost wanted to assassinate you.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And, and when it went after Wall street and got the biggest people on Wall street, put, put most of.

[Miranda Devine]

So what's happened to it? The Southern District put most of Ed

[Rudy Giuliani]

Koch's administration in jail. That's how it became mayor.

[Miranda Devine]

The Southern District prosecutor, Devon Archer, who is Hunter Biden's business partner and did not ask him a single question. Hunter, who was in the same business

[Rudy Giuliani]

at the time that they got him. Right? Yeah. Now, even knowing the partial information we knew then, knowing what we know now, it's obvious if you can't flip that guy, you have to do something else for a living. And the worst part is you're not always going to succeed. But it's really bad faith not to try.

[Miranda Devine]

The Bidens thought he'd flipped.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, I mean, of course he would flip, but they didn't try. And you know him.

[Miranda Devine]

Why is that?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I know him less than you do. Yeah, he was ready for it.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes. He's an agreeable person.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I have no doubt he was treated badly. I have no doubt that if I were handling that case, any one of about 20 of my assistant U.S. attorneys could. I wouldn't have to have done it. One of my could have done it like that.

[Miranda Devine]

So why didn't they?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Because they don't want to make the case.

[Miranda Devine]

Because why are they protecting Biden? Why would the Southern District protect Joe Biden?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I think a whole host of different. Some are purely political. Right. Some are. Trump derangement syndrome, which I told you, my two best columnists in the whole world, you and Michael Goodwin. And I think Michael wrote this about a week ago, and I think it's really true and it's hard to grasp. Trump derangement syndrome has now gone from a minor mental illness to a major one. It's a really major mental illness and it warps all of your rationality. You can't think straight. And I can think of. Think people in the administration had a fire for him. I like General Kelly. General Kelly thought he was saving the world from Donald Trump.

[Miranda Devine]

You had to fire General Kelly.

[Rudy Giuliani]

What?

[Miranda Devine]

You fired him?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Well, I didn't fire him, but I was instrumental in helping to get him fired. Right.

[Miranda Devine]

Why was that?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Because he was double crossing the president constantly. He thought he was the president.

[Miranda Devine]

How did you know he was double crossing him?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Because he cut me off. This is before I was his lawyer. I was a close friend of his. When he first went into office, he gave about 20 or 30 of us a private number. And at the beginning, he would call a lot.

[Miranda Devine]

Kelly. Kelly, who was.

[Rudy Giuliani]

No, no, no. President Trump. Right. In fact, I became his lawyer after I had an. I had a emergency with my knee. I fell, I split four of my tendons. I had an emergency operation. President called me every day. That was in August 2017. He called me every single day. And part of it was to talk about Me. But part of it was just, you know what he does? Somebody walks in and he says, you think I should bomb Iran? The person says, what?

[Miranda Devine]

And General Kelly is chief of staff.

[Rudy Giuliani]

He becomes chief of staff, and all of a sudden I start calling him. I can't get through. Oh, well, I wasn't his lawyer yet. This is about four months before I get a call from Richard Lefrag, who's one of his oldest friends from way back in Queens. And Richard said, there's something wrong. Are you able to get. You're probably able to get through. I said, richard, I'm glad you made this call, because he said, well, I got a call from this one and this one and this one and this one. Nobody can get through to the president anymore. Do you think he cut us off? Of course. He's on the phone all the time. He loves you. He wants to talk to you all the time. If the subject that he connects with you comes up, he's going to call you immediately. I said, there's something wrong. Let me find out. Immediately. I find out Kelly took away all the private numbers you had to go through him. And when I told him, when I told the president that he reversed it immediately.

[Miranda Devine]

So the President Trump was in his first term. It seems like there was a lot of sabotage from inside. But you, as his lawyer, were targeted by the FBI.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Oh, yeah.

[Miranda Devine]

And we only found that out after many. I mean, you got raided. Your office and your home were raided in New York City by the FBI, but they refused to take the hard drive, Hunter Biden hard drive, and did that. And they never charged you with anything. Did they ever tell you what they were investigating?

[Rudy Giuliani]

And even now, and I have to say, this includes Bondi and the Attorney General, and they would all have the power to do this. And my good friend Cash. I'm trying to get the affidavits. Christina. Bob represents me.

[Miranda Devine]

She's wonderful.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And I'm trying to get the affidavits for the simple reason that they had to have written an affidavit showing probable cause that I committed a crime in order to get into my house and

[Miranda Devine]

spy on your icloud.

[Rudy Giuliani]

They had done that a year and a half earlier. Right.

[Miranda Devine]

Do you know what that was about? What was their pretext?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I have no idea. They won't give me the affidavits, but

[Miranda Devine]

they had to get a judge to sign off.

[Rudy Giuliani]

They did. They have it and the Trump administration has it. They won't give me the. I'll tell you why. I think I'll Tell you why it's so important. Let's take the ones that resulted in the two searches. So in those documents they have to be able to show probable cause that I'm committing a crime and that there's a good chance that the material they want to seize from me contains evidence of that. They don't have to prove it, they have to show the probability of it. Now, a year and a half later after that was over, they wrote a letter to the grand jury that Bob got them to write, which was very clever and very fair. And he got them to. And they wrote, they selected the language. They said we're closing this investigation because we were unable to find any probable cause that he committed a crime. Well, what happened to the problem cause? Was it a year and a half ago? Did it go up, go up and smoke? Was it?

[Miranda Devine]

And why were they allowed to spy on you for four years?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Because I had to do the same thing. They had to show that there was probable cause I was committing a crime. Now that's ridiculous because.

[Miranda Devine]

But we know the FBI was behind the COVID up of Joe Biden because the FBI told Twitter now X and Facebook to censor our story before we even started writing it.

[Rudy Giuliani]

They pre bumped our story and probably they got.

[Miranda Devine]

They were spying on you.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, they got the indications of it from my phone traffic.

[Miranda Devine]

So they would have known the email that John Paul Mac Isaac sent you In August of 2020, it would have.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Could have jumped out at them. They probably were on the alert.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah, they had the laptop. They knew that.

[Rudy Giuliani]

So they probably were sensitive to it. I mean they did a better job of keeping track of me than any of the people that were assassins or attempted assassins or.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, and then they probably intercepted. We had a couple of text messages, not a lot, but I said don't hold off. Don't give it to the other.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yes, yes.

[Miranda Devine]

Agency media outfit that you're going to. We're going to run it.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Right.

[Miranda Devine]

So they knew that the New York Post was about to publish. So they were ready the hours after we published. And what you're talking about now is to censor it.

[Rudy Giuliani]

All of this is before they raided my house.

[Miranda Devine]

All before that was October 20th. They had to have 2020 to spy on you.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And that affidavit had to allege probable cause that I committed a crime.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah. And was it Farah that they were trying to stitch you up with foreign agent? And why weren't they Pam Bondi and Keshe Patel give you the affidavit?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Have you asked them I can't get through to them to talk about it. They won't talk about it.

[Miranda Devine]

How do you think they're going? Especially in terms of accountability, you know, the people like John Brennan and James Cohen.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I think there's a philosophical difference. I may be wrong, but maybe this would explain a lot if I'm right. I think there are people around the President, very influential and very good people who helped elect him, who believe he'd just forget all about it, that all it does is get him back into the past and he's got a much more important future to create. And then there are people like me and many others, I think you, that say, and this is not for personal vindication. I've already had personal vindication.

[Miranda Devine]

The President always says Rudy was right about everything. Yeah.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Russia collusion. Honestly, I mean, there are very few things I was worried about. Right about everything. This is one of them. But the reality is, if you don't uncover this and lay it out, you don't have to put everybody in jail. You don't have to put little people in jail and hold a few people accountable, but most importantly, get the story out, it's going to happen again. I've been doing this for too long. I actually believe that it was a mistake not to prosecute Hillary. I think some of this may have been interrupted if, when the President came in in 2016, 2017, some criminal action had been taken against two or three of the top people, I think it would have put the fear of God in them. It works. I mean, it really works.

[Miranda Devine]

Could you have prosecuted Hillary? Put a case together that would have been.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I promised him I would do it. Yeah, several times. And then we got all wrapped up in. He wanted me to be Attorney General, and I didn't want to be Attorney General.

[Miranda Devine]

Why?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I didn't want to be Attorney General for any number. What I told him, partially true. I said I was going through a terrible situation with my wife. The divorce was already happening, but nobody knew about it. And I considered, and she would be really angry at my saying this, but I consider. Actually, I said what I told her. I said, she'll be like a Martha Mitchell. You're going to have a Martha Mitchell on your hands. You're not just going to take me in. She'll be making all kinds of allegations in order to get money, and who knows what she's going to say. And I can't get you wrapped up into that. Also, here's the inconsistency in it. I wanted to be Secretary of State, but I knew that that would work because she wanted me to be Secretary of State. State. She wanted me to be secretary. Maybe because she said she could travel all over the world. I'm sure it wasn't for good reasons. Maybe it was, but she wanted me to be Secretary of State and I desperately wanted to be Secretary of State. All my life I functioned this way. When I'm successful beforehand, I've developed a passion for doing it and I foresee what I'm going to do. So nobody wanted me to run for mayor. My closest friends basically said they put their body down and not let me go because I would ruin my career. I could run for Governor. I'm a Republican. I do really well in upstate New York. I grew up in a lot of the suburbs. When I came out of being U.S. attorney, I had like an 80% approval rating. But that'll evaporate, they say. They said in New York City and that'll grow outside of New York City. And even Roger.

[Miranda Devine]

Rogerles.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah. Didn't think I should run. But once I did it, he was

[Miranda Devine]

your campaign manager in your mayor.

[Rudy Giuliani]

They all wanted me to run against Cuomo two years later. Yeah, I developed during the Stanley Friedman trial, which was Koch's top political guy, which I tried in New Haven, Connecticut, because the venue was changed. I developed this idea in my head that I was in a perfect position to be mayor because first of all, I grew up in New York City, so I know it as well as anybody is going to know it. I lived in every borough but one. Staten Island. I got the biggest vote there. I had been an Assistant U.S. attorney. One of my biggest cases as an Assistant U.S. attorney was breaking open one of the Great Society program frauds, a minor version of what you're seeing in Minute in Minnesota. Welfare, welfare, Model Cities administration. And it changed. It's one of the things that changed me from being a Democrat because I said, see, the only thing I'm hanging on as a Democrat is because they help the poor people. But the poor people don't get any money. Politicians, there's no money left for them. And if you look at it with a 50 year perspective and you think about all the money that went into the dependency programs and the people still poor and the congressmen who represented those areas all became millionaires, it gives you a pretty good idea of where the money went. Charlie Rangel got rich and Harm got poor. And so I left. I left the Democratic Party, then became an independent, then I became a Republican. And I very much. I very much realized that As a Republican, I was gonna have a hard time winning, but I said, I can do a good job as governor, I can do an exceptional job as mayor. So let me try. And God was good enough to make it happen.

[Miranda Devine]

I mean, everybody loves you In New York.

[Rudy Giuliani]

U.S. attorney. U.S. attorney. The same thing I had.

[Miranda Devine]

But can I ask you, as Secretary

[Rudy Giuliani]

of State, I had traveled to 80 countries after I was married. I ran a worldwide security business and I enjoyed the security business a lot, but I really used it to educate myself. It was like a doctorate. I would read a history if I, if I went, when I went to Kazakhstan, I read the history of Kazakhstan. When I, when I had dinner with Nazarbayev, I, I knew his personal history and the history of Kazakhstan. I knew there that they, that they were much closer to Russia than they were to China. They were much more afraid of China than Russia.

[Miranda Devine]

What did Trump say when you said you wanted to be Secretary of State?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Oh, no, that's not your area. That's not your area. Right. He couldn't see me. I mean, this is a terrible thing to say. I knew more about foreign policy than all the people around me. Right.

[Miranda Devine]

And did he say afterwards he regretted that?

[Rudy Giuliani]

No, he's never said that. He still believes that. Right. Because I've never really had a chance to show him how much I know about him.

[Miranda Devine]

So say you were Attorney General tomorrow. What would you do in terms of bringing accountability, which is the one thing so many Republicans say to me, they lament.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I would put together, I wouldn't do a special prosecutor, but I'd do a special division. You know how you have the criminal division and the civil rights division and this division and that division. I do a division maybe of about 50 or 60 lawyers and I put them on this, on what happened. Get us the answer as to what happened in 2020. Both with regard to one group would deal with the crimes against the United States which they committed and the other

[Miranda Devine]

would deal with as in the election. Right, the election.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And let's get the answer to that.

[Miranda Devine]

And the COVID up of Joe Biden's crimes.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Right, right. And we're either going to indict people or we're going to explain to people why we can't. And we're going to write history. Like Churchill said, whoever writes history makes history. Right.

[Miranda Devine]

So kind of a RICO case, conspiracy case, like you did against the Five Families.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, it's tailor made for it. I mean, it's like every once in a while you go for a suit and you put it on and Nothing has to be done. And this is a suit. You just put your right in it.

[Miranda Devine]

And who are the top capos?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Well, I mean, I have a chart that goes back to probably three months after I first got the information. So I first got the information in November and December of 2018, 2019, about Ukraine and Biden. And I'm talking to Shokin and the others in early. So by March, I put together an outline of the point man, RICO case. The other two would have been China, which I knew enough about China then to be able to put it in the case, but I didn't have the solid evidence of that. That would have had to have it. And also we. We had that 3.5 million, very odd payment from Russia.

[Miranda Devine]

So are you saying the Biden, the Hillary Clinton, the 2020 election are all connected?

[Rudy Giuliani]

100%. I think they started somewhere in. And I think it all starts from the best that I have. It all starts somewhere in 20. It all starts in Obama's office in the famous meeting in which they all either find out or make it clear they're aware of the fact that she's going to develop this false story, pay for it and use it against Trump. And they're going to use it to defeat Trump.

[Miranda Devine]

Russia collusion.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Right. They're going to use it to defeat Trump. And then when it doesn't work, of course. Who is it that says we have insurance?

[Miranda Devine]

Oh, yeah, Peter Strzok, the FBI.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah. He comes to the conclusion we can't prove this. Now, actually, he knows it's untrue, but he says he knows there's a lot more they can continue. And the other thing that's really important here is Ukraine played a very active role in it. It's not as if they were. When I say Ukraine, I don't mean the Ukrainian people. I love the Ukrainian people. But their political structure is horrible and they were owned by the Democrats. One of the prosecutors there said, Since 2014, we've been like a cash cow for the Democrat Party and a few of your people. I said, would you tell me who our people are? He said, I don't, I don't. He either said, I don't think I should or I don't. I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable.

[Miranda Devine]

You tried to get the Biden laptop to a senator. Are you able to tell me who that senator was? And I believe the senator said, I don't want to go against a fellow senator.

[Rudy Giuliani]

You know, it's a little different. I tried to get the original information to a senator way back In January, a Republican senator. 2019. I laid out the whole thing for him. And remember, those weren't just allegations. There had been some affidavits done.

[Miranda Devine]

And what did he say?

[Rudy Giuliani]

There were recordings done. He knew Biden real well, didn't like him, particularly New Realm, he said, I'm surprised because he's so stupid that he'd be involved in a plan as sophisticated as this. This is terrible, but I just don't. I don't think the Senate would want to get. It would want to get involved. Not at this stage. It's too close to the election now. It wasn't too close to the election. It was a year. A year?

[Miranda Devine]

Well, January 2019. Biden hadn't even announced.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, yeah. I delivered and put my report together before he announced for office. So when they would say I was trying to interfere with his being President, I never thought he'd be the nominee. Particularly when I saw this, I always questioned he was showing signs of being senile. 2017, 2018 now hard to see. You have to understand, I've known Joe since 1980 or 81. First time I met him, a college classmate of his brought me to meet him. The college classmate youe were the U.S. attorney, I was the Associate Attorney General. Right. And he was on the Judiciary Committee. And my chief of staff had gone to law school with Syracuse, and he used to joke with me, and he used to say, you should move to a small state because you'd be a great senator and you wouldn't have to do anything. Look, Joe Biden got it like he was the stupidest guy in our law school class, but nice guy, he said. Really nice guy.

[Miranda Devine]

Little did he know.

[Rudy Giuliani]

You got to get to know him. He's a really nice guy. But boy, don't get judgmental. I mean, he really is stupid. Then he told me about his cheating. I knew all about how he plagiarism, how he plagiarized twice. Some other stories that maybe you're true or maybe you're not. And then we went to meet him and. Exactly right. I walked away thinking, this guy is. I actually thought of Joe Biden, although as profoundly stupid. I mean, not just stupid, he was cunning, though. Yes, yes. I guess, you know, it's in order to get by, he had to be.

[Miranda Devine]

I think he likes being underestimated and he acts dumb within years.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Could be. It could be, yes. Because there are times in which. There are times in which he'll say something very surprising and you'll say, how did that dumb mind come up with that. But in any event, it was fun to say to people he may be one of the dumbest men in America, not just in the Senate. Then. I work with him very, very close, closely on the crime act of 1996,

[Miranda Devine]

when he used to be tough on crime.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I wrote that. I wrote that in the Reagan administration. That piece of legislation was eight years old and had gone through. It came out of the Attorney General's Task Force on Violent Crime that was appointed by Attorney General William French Smith under Trump, and I was in charge of them. And we wrote this report, which sometimes you should get and read. It's really. If I were to give somebody, what can you do about crime? A couple of modifications. You could use that right now. It was really written by James Q. Wilson and George Kelling.

[Miranda Devine]

Broken windows.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Broken windows. But a number of the other theories, too. Career criminal. Wilson was a genius and had a great understanding of society. He had both the academic ability and the street smarts. So that document became legislation. It never got passed under Reagan. It never got passed under Bush. Now Clinton comes in and Clinton wants to get it passed. And Clinton put me on a committee with three Democrat mayors, three Republican mayors, and I knew Schumer from New York. In fact, I had declined prosecution of him from the Eastern District of New York. Oh, really? In which I was told, you're going to regret this. Well, I thought it was a cheap case. It was a case involving his using his state legislative staff to help him run for Congress.

[Miranda Devine]

One very last question. Everyone will want to know. You've been indicted, You've been raided, you've been sued for $450 million. They tried to bankrupt you. They tried to destroy you. How are you now?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I'm good.

[Miranda Devine]

You through it all?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I'm not through it all. I still have a couple of cases left. Believe it or not, the case in Arizona, it's dismissed, but not dismissed because the prosecutor won't drop it, because I think she's waiting for this election to

[Miranda Devine]

be over and Donald Trump pardoned you. But it doesn't fit a.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Doesn't fit a state. A state crime. I mean, I wanted to drop it so I can sue them for false arrest.

[Miranda Devine]

Yeah.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And there are a couple of civil cases that are left, but in terms of. I mean, I put my life back together. I have a very successful. It's really a live show and podcast. Yes, it does very well. Every night, I get a lot of invitations to speak, so I still.

[Miranda Devine]

And you're about to get the presidential meta.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yes, yes. Pretty soon. Pretty soon. I'll be going to Paris and maybe to Italy. And I just came back campaigning for a candidate for Congress in Tulsa, Reverend Jackson Lehmeyer. So I stay very, very, very active. And, you know, it's really strange. I always worried about making this move and I don't think if things had to.

[Miranda Devine]

Palm Beach?

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, yeah. As a complete move. I've always loved it here, but part time now I love it full time. And people say to me, well, don't you. Aren't you lonely? I said, there are more New Yorkers in Palm beach than that. It's true.

[Miranda Devine]

It's so sad.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And you know something? They all come to see me.

[Miranda Devine]

Yes.

[Rudy Giuliani]

So I'm like a drop off. I think I should get like a cafe, Rudy's Cafe, and then these people could come up and talk. But I really keep up with New York quite a bit.

[Miranda Devine]

What do you see in the future with Johnny in charge?

[Rudy Giuliani]

I think the only way I can describe briefly my whole reaction to my heart is broken. Yes. I mean, the situation with New York in a pure way, was a love affair. I love New York. I love the city. I love what I did as mayor. I put my whole heart and soul into it. And a lot of people love New York, but nobody loves it more than I do. I mean, I could goes down to being a Yankee fan, a Knick fan and a Ranger fan. And I just think New York has the potential of being the greatest city on earth and has been. And what he's doing to it, I mean, I didn't think it could get worse to De Blasio. I really didn't. I thought, well, that's it. Now we had the worst mayor. Wow. He combines two things that I have been studying and fighting against since I was a child because my parents were very anti communist. He's a communist and he's a violent supporter of violent Muslim religion, which unfortunately is what Muhammad taught them to be. I have in there my library. I've got five different versions of the Quran. I started reading it when I was 19 and did a paper on it when I was 19 years old because I was studying to be a priest and it was comparative religion. And I got Islam. And halfway through reading the Quran, I went to see the brother who was my proctor and just a kid. I said, it's not a religion. Jesus and Moses didn't go around telling. Telling the people to go kill everybody. And by the way, if you don't have time, it's okay if you just kill them, but if you have time, really Even better if you torture them. He didn't take a whole bunch of Jewish people and put them in front of a mass grave and administer the coup de gras to two or three of them and then throw them in the grave just like Hitler eventually did. Here's the problem. The vast majority of Muslims are good people. The vast majority of Muslims like everybody else. But Muslims don't stand up. You know, what's the saying about for evil to prevail, Good men do nothing. Yeah. That's what's happening. They will not. They become defensive when you reveal what we were talking about earlier, right. About the guy with worker for isis.

[Miranda Devine]

And well, this is what happens in New York now. And let's hope that someone of your ilk can come back and save the city.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I know. I'm afraid that England is going to.

[Miranda Devine]

It's gone.

[Rudy Giuliani]

I told Piers, got a little insulted. I said, charles III is going to be a Shima.

[Miranda Devine]

Thank you so much, Mayor Giuliani. It's been an honor.

[Rudy Giuliani]

And I can't congratulate you enough, not only for the great service you did for our country, which took a lot of courage, wasn't as easy as you made it. It was really hard. But also, your columns are a service.

[Miranda Devine]

Thank you.

[Rudy Giuliani]

Yeah, they really are. I mean, there are a couple of people in the media that are just so necessary right now, even though just a few of you. Thank you. You're right at the top. Thank you.

[Miranda Devine]

Thanks for joining Pod Force One. I'm Miranda Devine. You're not going to want to miss next week. Please leave a comment. Comment below to let us know what you thought of this interview. And don't forget to subscribe.