A (2:58)

I mean, even if it's not pure government money, it really is the bank's money, but backed by the government in case the business falls flat on its face, the taxpayer is still left holding the bill, isn't that right?

B (3:11)

Well, look, the banks have skin in the game. So we provide about a 75% guarantee. So that bank is taking that first loss position. So if they make a $5 million loan and it goes completely wrong, the bank takes that first loss. Many of the banks, we have an active secondary market. So those loans are packaged, securitized and then sold into secondary markets to reduce the risk. It also provides interest rate stability so that the banks know that they can make these loans at a cost effective interest rate. It's a very active market. But look, I had from day one another thing, abuse of these programs. I had to come in on day one and strengthen the underwriting guidelines because the Biden administration had reduced any requirements that related to normal lending. And banks had started being afraid to make loans because they knew they were going to be holding the bag. So I restored the underwriting guidelines, which are known to be very stringent. Many small businesses say their best day ever was when they paid off their SBA loan because they don't take these loans on lightly. They have to put a personal guarantee up. So hopefully the taxpayer is the last person holding the bag.

A (4:29)

Whenever there's a huge amount of government money or free money, there will always be fraudsters lining up. So what have you found in the Small Business Administration in terms of fraud?

B (4:40)

Well, this is the monumental question because it's a cautionary tale about government grants and even government loan programs writ large. We saw during COVID what happened to PPP and Covid Eidl, if you remember the Paycheck Protection program in the aggregate, there were three separate programs. There was one under President Trump when we initiated the CARES Act. I was in the Senate in 2020 when that happened. And then Biden did two more to prolong Covid spending that turned out to be $1.2 trillion of money. Most of it forgiven, but about 200 billion of it fraudulent. So let me give you another example of what we're seeing being fought in the courts. And thankfully it was. Biden initiated about a $30 billion restaurant revitalization program. These grants were race and gender based and were later overturned by the US Appeals court because they were discriminatory. So it just shows when we have these programs, these excessively large, under scrutinized, unaudited programs, that the government is not a good actor at parsing them out. Which is why the SBA's lending program is so strong and has a very low default rate because they go through community banks, they go through actual private sector vetting of people that say, do I want to have skin in the game in this loan or in this program at all? Because no private actor is going to say, I just want to lose money to hand it out. So these are the types of things that we should learn from during COVID And it's what I'm looking at the agency right now for. In Minneapolis, we withheld some of the grant money because of the governor's actions and their inability to police fraud. And we have a whole separate work stream going on with Minneapolis, Minnesota fraud. And frankly, in every single state.

A (6:39)

Just go back to what you were talking about, these sort of DI program that the Biden administration instituted where small businesses, only, those that I think were run by minorities or women, were eligible for these big loans up to $5 million. I think now you've upped that to 10 million. But how, how unreasonable did that turn out to be?

B (7:06)

Well, the restaurant revitalization fund was actually a grant program, so you didn't even have to pay the money back. And they told males, specifically white males, to get to the back of the line while they took applications only from economically disadvantaged minorities, as they called it. The program essentially ran out of funds on day one, was later deemed obviously unconstitutional. But these are the types of things that we saw over and over in the Biden administration. So we had to shut down their office of dei. We found a bag of DEI pins they had in their supply and they actively advanced dei. They called it their North Star and things like electioneering. We tore up an MOU that they had with Michigan on electioneering. It didn't just stop with dei. It was political friends and agendas, including Green New Deal lending, minority lenders from day one. We came in and said, there's going to be no more of these types of lending constructs. Electioneering, dei, discrimination against faith based organizations unconstitutionally, where they prevented them from getting disaster relief. So this was an all out war on basic American rights in this country and they were using the SBA to do it.

A (8:42)

Give us an example of this discrimination against faith based organizations.

B (8:47)

Yeah, unfortunately there's just, if you remember the tragic floods over the fourth of July last year. And you know, that affected small towns in Texas and many of those Texas faith based organizations were impacted. Fortunately, we were able to discover that the Biden administration had done this and we were able to get them relief. But these are things like churches, community organizations that are helping people recover from relief, small businesses that have a faith orientation that are deserving borrowers during a flood, as anyone would be. So anyway, these are the types of examples that we see over and over that the Biden political agenda was used to help their friends and hurt their enemies. And it's just like my colleague Lee Zeldin at the epa, the administrator, you know, he caught them throwing so called gold bricks to the tune of $2 billion off the ship to Stacey Abrams, their friends. So this is what's important about this administration now. It's not just enough to catch it. We are focused on prosecuting it and putting the controls and guardrails in place to make sure it never happens again. Because most of us have private sector experience and we know it's not just enough to say that there's a problem. Our job is to actually fix it.

A (10:17)

So are there going to be prosecutions leading out of your investigations into fraud and abuse?

B (10:23)

Yeah, I mean, let me give you a really good example. I was out recently in California where I stood at an address that had 14 businesses registered to it and they had received PPP loans during the pandemic. Well, it turns out California has 111,000 fraudulent borrowers, so called borrowers that took money from taxpayers during the pandemic. And now what we have to do is create those files, get them over to our federal law enforcement partners, work with our Office of Inspector General who was just out there and make sure that these people can never do business with us ever again and then be held accountable for whatever federal applicable federal crimes. But this is what happens in socialist welfare states like California, like Minneapolis. We see it across the country. Those are some of the worst states, but there's others to come and we will be prosecuting them.

A (11:25)

You mentioned Minnesota, which of course we've heard so much about the Somali fraud there. Is that the worst state or have you found fraud in California or New York?

B (11:37)

Well, you know, interestingly, we haven't done the math on a per capita basis. Which, which ones were Minnesota or California. But you know, they're very similar in terms of their proclivity toward having a socialist welfare agenda where they look the other way because the fraud created creates money for their constituents that somehow makes it into their campaign. So we are going to go state by state. We have a number of other very large offender states and we'll be announcing that relatively soon.

A (12:10)

So watch this space.

B (12:11)

In other words, watch this space. We have other programs. This isn't just Covid era that we're looking at, but we are going to make sure that we contribute meaningfully to Vice President Vance's fraud task force that he is heading up, which is so important to the American people. They work so hard, they pay taxes to the federal government and it's our job to be a good steward of those taxes. And when they're not well spent, we have to make sure that we have accountability for those that came here to abuse them or those that make a living off abusing tax taxpayer funds and really take a coordinated, holistic approach. And then the last thing I'll say is we have hired the firm Palantir, which you may be familiar with. It's an AI driven firm that works through using data, navigating complex connections between that data to detect fraud. We at the SBA are using them to really supercharge this effort because this needs to happen fast and we need to draw the connections and the dots to all the actors who might not just be committing SBA fraud, but we know that usda, hhs, FEMA and others have said they have found fraud. So we need to see if this is a sophisticated structural issue within the government. Defrauding taxpayers to hundreds of billions of dollars.

A (13:45)

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A (15:47)

How is the Small Business Administration helping small businesses that might be involved in manufacturing? Helping the sort of Trump imperative to bring manufacturing back on shore?

B (15:58)

Yeah, I mean, look, this is incredibly exciting. Thanks to President Trump who has put America first, who has said that America should control our destiny. And we can do that by revitalizing strength in our manufacturing sector. Last year we started the Made in America manufacturing tour. We created a number of initiatives to showcase and to strengthen our small manufacturers. Now, when you think of a manufacturer, you may think of a massive 5,000 person plant like an automaker, which is great. We need lots of those. We need defense, aerospace, auto. But what fuels a lot of those, particularly our defense, our aerospace, automotive, are the small manufacturers who subcontract out and make thousands of thousands of parts. So I talked to the Ford CEO. They have like 5,000 small manufacturers that will make the windshield wiper blades or the turn signal. They'll make some component defense. Massive defense base of small manufacturers that create the components or for a space program. Many of the space station components are made by small manufacturers because they're so specialized. So we're really highlighting our strength and then advocating for a doubling of the loan limit from 5 million to 10 million. That bill is awaiting passage in the House. I'm sorry, in the Senate. It has passed the House. I'm so grateful for that. Our small businesses are grateful. If we get this through the Senate, it's a massive win. It's a bipartisan win because everyone knows that when Main street wins, their communities benefit writ large. It's the tax base grows employment. Everyone does better when they have these great manufacturing jobs. And it's coming back at record pace thanks to President Trump's fair trade agenda.

A (17:56)

And you mentioned the Senate. You were a senator for some time. Do you have any insights into why the Republican senators seem unable to come together to pass the Save America act, which is basically an incredibly popular, I think, 90% popularity in the public measure to force people to have voter id? It's not that Hard everywhere else in the world does it. Why are there Republican holdouts? Is it just because they don't like Donald Trump?

B (18:26)

Well, look, I think the concept that unites Democrats is their hatred of our great President Donald Trump. But look, I think what we have to have is for Republicans in the Senate to unite and get this through. This is much bigger than partisan. It's bigger than one president, though. I'm so grateful to President Trump for fighting for this. The SAVE act is basic common sense that most other countries in the entire world actually have. And so it's inexplicable that this wouldn't be raced to the Senate floor, passed as a victory for so many. And it's a bipartisan concept. It's gotta be a 9010 issue at worst, because the American people. Look, I have looked at elections for a long time. When you think about the number of people that turn out for elections, on average it's something like 56%. So many people don't trust that their vote counts, that elections are fair, that their voice will be heard. This is one thing that will say your vote and your voice matter. And again, it's common sense. We've closed the border. That was common sense. And now we have to make sure that we protect against the damage that was done under the Biden administration for four years because there's no way to know how much damage was done. And then of course, when we have things come up like special elections and things that I've been involved in, then people will turn out and trust their voice matters.

A (20:09)

Is that what happened to you in that all important runoff in Georgia for your Senate seat, which ultimately Raphael Warnock, the Democrat, won. Was that just a factor? It was so close of just Republicans so fed up, the voters that they sat at home.

B (20:29)

Well, look, we may never know what happened. I'm grateful that Director Patel and the FBI are investigating Fulton county in Georgia, and I applaud the administration's work on that and will do whatever I can to support with my own experience there, and did spend four years prior to this working on election integrity in my home state of Georgia, where we had to pass hundreds of pages of election laws to restore some semblance of election integrity in our state. And we are in a much better position now, thankfully. But look, until we have a complete investigation, we'll never know. The Fulton county ballots are one aspect. There's other counties, there's other challenges. But we can never let anything like that happen again. And that's what a lot of Georgia's election laws are written about, about not repeating the mistakes of 2020, but it's a cautionary tale for the entire country and that's why the SAVE act is so important. Voter id, citizenship requirements, paper ballots, a lot of these are going to solve some of the problems. But we need to look at lessons learned quickly across the board because you can just look at some of the city, look what's happening in New York or California. California takes 30 days to count their ballots. I mean, something's wrong there when that's going on.

A (22:02)

What do you suspect went wrong in Georgia? I think even the primary was a little bit dodgy. Stacey Abrams, of course, had spent a lot of time changing the rules legally, I guess. And then of course, the Democrats capitalised on Covid to, to add drop boxes and other measures that assisted them. What do you think went wrong? Was it outright fraud or was it just clever changing of the rules in the sort of year and time before the 2020 election?

B (22:38)

I don't think it was any one thing, and I wish it were, but I think it's everything you mentioned and more. I mean, look, we had from day one, we had Stacey Abrams and her organization in there working on changing how absentee ballots that were fraudulent could be rejected. I mean, local electors would have had to sign their names to ballots they rejected. No one wants to do that. They got that change. They had the signatures of state officials allowing them to change the process for vote tallies. And then they allowed the Democrat Party to train local counties on how to count absentee ballots. Then the pandemic hits. And what you have is, you know, the Secretary of State's changes created this dynamic where everyone did absentee ballots, unmanned drop boxes that had no cameras on them, just in a random parking lot and, you know, moving election dates and then, you know, just it was one thing after another and it was unilateral changes that were made to our elections. And then you had outside money coming in. I think in Georgia, something like 15 million came out of the Zuckerbucks fund, the $300 million fund. So it's one thing after another. And unfortunately, during a pandemic, under the guise of that, they were able to make substantive changes. And that's why I often say, I don't know if we'll ever know what happened. Because then you have the tabulations and the uncertainty around the vote counting process and how all of that went. And that's why the FBI is investigating Fulton county, because they had not just, I think, had one election Inspector. But they've had a couple that did long term reports that said they had sloppy systemic failures. So again, I don't think we'll ever know, but we can never let it happen again.

A (24:48)

And I mean, it seemed that at the time that you were running, especially in that runoff, it was such a bruising and brutal campaign, probably the worst of the entire 2020 season, which is saying something. Maybe only Donald got more abuse. How?

B (25:06)

How?

A (25:06)

You know, I mean, for instance, you, you were accused of insider trading for trading stocks at the beginning of the pandemic. How did you respond to that?

B (25:19)

Yeah, well, first of all. So two separate things. First of all, on those accusations, I addressed them head on. I went on national TV that day and said, do any investigation you want. I come out of financial services, I can't touch any portfolio. And because of my husband's position, he can't either. And that's been true for like a decade. So have at it. I think I'm one of only like four or five members of Congress that has ever been fully and deeply investigated by the doj sec, obviously ethics, like everyone.

A (25:57)

Was that under Joe Biden?

B (25:58)

No, this was in 2020.

A (26:00)

Oh, right, okay.

B (26:01)

Yeah. So this was in 2020.

A (26:03)

Yeah.

B (26:04)

And, and so it didn't take long to, to figure out there is nothing there. I had no. What? You know, this was all made up. The Democrat Party of Georgia filed a complaint that was taken seriously and reported and laundered through the Daily Beast. But anyway, all of that to say is it made me realize what we're up against and it only made me my resolve stronger to stand up and fight for people so that we looked at real issues, real candidates. And as a result of my resolve to fight to be the only senator and professional sports team owner that stood up against BLM, the only sense of senator in 2020 by then that had ever brought to the bill to the floor a bill to protect women and girls sports. So that just made me stronger. But you're right, that Senate runoff, it was David Perdue and I up for a nine week runoff after November of 2020. It was bruising, it was costly, but it, it showed the stakes of our elections. And that's why I spent the next four years building an election integrity diverse community outreach voter mobilization organization to try to get our state back and to support President Trump getting back into office, which I immediately got to work on in 2021.

A (27:32)

And do you think that the work that you did in Georgia will put you in good stead or put the state in good stead for the Republicans to do well in the midterms. And, and secondly, how do you see the midterms going for Republicans?

B (27:49)

Well, first of all, I won't take any credit other than saying it was vital that we restarted our grassroots efforts in Georgia and got focus on election integrity matters, because that was the biggest issue we had. And again, you'd mentioned this earlier, when people don't trust elections, they're not going to turn out and vote, but when they do turn out, it better be fair and people need to know it. So I do think it was critical. And we restarted, thanks to our efforts, voter registration in Georgia, which we had yielded to Democrats. And then we also worked through continuous, diverse community outreach because we have to have what the president did, and he's done so beautifully for years and years, is a coalition of people who want to live free, to have the American dream, to have all the opportunities. And that means we are constantly building a big tent, not taking it down every two to four years. Which is, you know, why the midterms are so important, because this is just part of the flywheel that just has to continue by conservatives, which is standing with people in their communities, consistently making sure they understand we're fighting for them. And I think it's very clear in the Trump administration that this president is putting every American first. And I think the midterms are going to be very strong for us because I can see the results on the ground. I've been in already this year, probably 15 states. The feeling on the ground, people are we've transformed in one year compared to the gloom and doom of the Biden administration. Four years of that. Now, look, we have more work to do because four years of the Biden administration put us in a big ditch. But we're getting there. And I think the midterms are going to be very strong for Republicans.

A (29:49)

Do you think the Iran war will play into it? Are you hearing anything from fellow Georgians about their viewers of that, whether it's distracting the administration from domestic economic policies?

B (30:04)

Well, first of all, we're a big military state, and I want to thank our men and women of the military for standing strong for what they're doing. And we grieve with the families for those who were lost. And this combat mission is certainly vital to American interests. I think people are going to see that if they don't already see it. I think it's going to be limited. And I think in politics, six, seven, eight months is a political lifetime. It's just a very long time. And if you know, I was looking at the oil prices this morning, the liberal media loves to just focus on one thing and say this is it. Well, if you look at the oil prices, it's $100 plus. But if you look over to December, the forward pricing curve in the futures market, December oil futures are like $70. So even the futures markets are pricing in a short term conflict and the return of oil prices to essentially where they were. But this is why President Trump's drill baby, drill American energy dominance agenda is vital. Why are we impacted by an Iranian, by a terrorist government that controls a third of the world's energy flow? This is unacceptable in what should be a free nation, a free world that we are fighting for that strength again and not to be terrorized by these types of actors. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With us you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply.

C (31:57)

The New York Post has been delivering impactful headlines for over two centuries. And every weekday morning I'll bring them straight to you. I'm Caitlin Becker, host of the New York Post. Cast from Washington to Wall Street. If it matters to you, you'll hear it here. And it wouldn't be the Post without the stories other outlets like to ignore. So ask your smart speaker to play the NY Postcast, listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

A (32:25)

You were, as we were saying, terribly bruised or actually, I don't know, bruised is a fair word, but certainly attacked when you were a senator and when you were running for election. And the WNBA is one great example of that, where you owned half the team in Atlanta, the Atlanta Dream, and you came out after the George Floyd riots. Blm, you were kind of prescient. I mean, a lot of us could see it in saying that BLM was really just a lark for the Democrats to pursue electoral ambitions and also ended up being a kind of a fraudster's paradise. But you got a lot of pushback when you said, you know, we'd rather you rather than wear BLM T shirts, we'd rather you wear the American flag. Bring us back to that battle.

B (33:22)

Yeah, it was interesting. So that was 2020. We had been through that as a league in 2016. And I thought it was really interesting that every four years BLM comes to the forefront just during an election and has an act blue Donate now button on all its materials. But I thought it was also really horrifying when you go went on to their website, they've hidden it now, but their website featured essentially what their mandate was, which was to destroy the nuclear family. It was transgender. It was everything except supporting black communities. It was a radical Marxist agenda led by three women who acknowledged they were trained Marxists and they were here to revolutionize the country. And I simply said, look, I've owned this team for a decade. I see what bringing people together through in sports means. And we didn't wear the t shirts in 2016, and it worked out just fine. We don't need to wear them in 2020. And the league, certainly at this moment during the pandemic, we should be saying we support this country, we want our kids back in school, we want America to unite instead of this divisive BLM garbage. Well, the league didn't see it my way. And I turned out to be the only professional sports team owner that spoke out. But because I knew there were ways that we could help diverse communities if we didn't divide the country on racial lines. So I was very. I never wavered. I did not change my stand. My team wore Vote Warnock T shirts and I did not care. That is their right to do that. It's my right to say what I believed. And I needed to make sure people understood that BLM was a Marxist, Democrat controlled organization.

A (35:17)

And the Vote Warnock T shirts, basically supporting your political opponent. Do you think that made any impact in Georgia? Do you think that helped Warnock?

B (35:29)

No, I think it helped me. I think it was a wake up call for people across the country to see how extreme this movement was. And I, I don't think it had any impact locally.

A (35:44)

I.

B (35:46)

Look, it's, it's. It was a gimmick that was given to them. They were very clear. There was a zoom call that Michelle Obama got on Stacey Abrams. They, I think they even ordered the T shirts. They directed it according to one of the interviews that they did. So, you know, that was just their choice in terms of how they react. I would have reacted very differently. I would have said, I want to make sure our arena is open. I want to make sure that this sport is highlighted as a leader in supporting America's recovery from the pandemic, not dividing us. But that's, that's a, I guess a marketing call for them.

A (36:24)

In the end, you were forced to sell your ownership stake in the team. How difficult was that for you?

B (36:31)

I wasn't Forced. I, you know, I had the chance to hold onto the team and I could have sold it immediately, but I just said, look, I, I'm not going to shut the team down because people are using their free speech rights, but I'm going to. And, and we had been in talks for years trying to get other partners into the ownership group, but within a year, my business partner and I, who are 50, 50 owners, just said, this no longer meets the expectations we had for a product like a business. I mean, I was a small business owner. I've owned a lot of small businesses. People don't usually think of sports franchises as that, but it is. It's. You got the front office, you got the product on the court. We did a lot of good in the community for a decade and we just said this, this is not a business that we want to be in anymore. It's completely, completely radically changed from when we came in a decade earlier.

A (37:35)

Your relationship with Donald Trump. I know during the runoff there were people, including me, who thought that he wasn't, you know, he was still in a, in a funk about losing the election or Biden having taken it, as he thought. And, and so he wasn't really out there on the stump view. I think he did go, but he was sort of a bit half hearted about it. And now, I mean, he absolutely adores you. So was there a rocky time in your relationship or how, how have you sort of endured all, all the ups and downs?

B (38:10)

Look, I, I have been blessed to have a wonderful relationship with President Trump. And when I was appointed in 2019, I'd only met the president once before that, which was at a fundraiser when he was running for office. So the first time we really met was kind of my introduction in the Senate. And look, I knew I was going to have to work hard to earn his confidence and his trust as a US Senator. I did that. And by the end of the year, I was the only senator, according to the rankings, that had 100% voting record with the president. The president and I traveled together. We were out on the road during the year for campaign events. I traveled with them to the CDC. When the pandemic first started in March of 2020, I guess all the way through the year for election events. He came to Georgia during the runoff and told people to get out and vote for David Perdue and Kelly Loeffler. He was very involved. But look, when things didn't go either of our ways, for whatever, any number of reasons, I got to work right away again. Supporting him was at his first rally in 2021 and then back out building conservative infrastructure for the next four years. And then the chance to go into the administration was not something I expected, but there was no way I couldn't do it because I felt I'd gotten involved in politics in the Senate because of his leadership. To see an outsider. I mean, keep in mind I had a nearly three decade business career as an outsider coming in. I only got involved in politics 15 years ago because of what Washington was trying to do to startup companies, to innovators. And it was ridiculous that our own Senate and House was fighting startups that were trying to, you know, compete internationally. So I am humbled and so honored to be part of this administration because it's such a culmination of everything that in politics that I've worked for for the last 15 plus years.

A (40:33)

And tell us about the Cabinet. I mean, as you said earlier there, so many of them are self made business people. They're outsiders. They're not your classic sort of beltway insiders, including you. What's it like being in that group of very talented people? And how does Donald Trump relate to you all?

B (40:58)

Yeah, I mean, this is an unbelievable moment in our history because of we have a leader like Donald J. Trump that not only understands the real world because he's lived and worked and succeeded in it, but he exactly sees how government works. And he understands not just the US Perspective, but us in a very global context. I mean, he has brought relevance back to international bodies like NATO, to even the World Economic Forum. Who would have thought people listen to him on a world stage because they see he's effective at home and he is at his best when he is solving big problems. And that's what he does. He thinks big. He is constantly working. Our Cabinet meetings are incredible, first of all because we get to spend time with him, but second of all because we get to talk with each other about how our work together is progressing. Because most of us have ongoing efforts, projects, mous like we're constantly on the road together. In fact, I'm going to be with Brooke Rollins tomorrow. I was with Lee Zeldin a few weeks ago. You know, it's just, you know, a continuous dialogue of problem solving, sharing ideas and getting results for the President. Because when I think about the difference of being in the Senate in 2020 and where we are today, I would have businesses come in and say, oh, government moves so slow today. I have businesses that say, you guys are moving so fast, I can't keep up. Which is because we're all working together toward a common objective, to put the American people first and to change Washington back to working for the people instead of the people working to send their money to Washington.

A (43:03)

And President Trump is a pretty unique individual. His personality and so on. I don't think we've seen many like him in the Oval Office. What is it about him? Is there any particular quality that you've discerned of his personality that has made him, you know, able to rise above all the slings and arrows, to be so resilient and to, I mean, be the surprising winner two times round and be so hated by one side of politics but loved by the other?

B (43:40)

Well, first of all, he's effective, which I think is the biggest fear that Democrats have. I mean, his agenda is totally counter to their kind of socialist, Marxist welfare agenda. He believes in the American people. This president believes in American industry and the American worker, and wants to restore our exceptionalism. Truly, I mean, his State of the Union a few weeks ago, I mean, it was. That's it. I mean, we have heroes, we have people who are survivors, we have people who take massive risks. That's worth celebrating. That's what he understands. You know, it's interesting you, you kind of phrased he rises above because he, he's a detail guy, but he sees the big picture and he is skating way ahead of where the puck is going and he gets it really quickly. I've sat in the oval with him before and he, he can context shift from topic to topic and not lose a beat. And that's what our country is benefiting from. Someone who gets the big picture, that cares about the small details because he knows that they're going to make a big difference. It's just like had we taken seriously protecting girls forts 10 years ago, we wouldn't have these ridiculous issues that we have. He gets it. He understands that everything has a knock on effect and he wants to make sure that we shape it to the advantage of the American people.

A (45:12)

So if, if we're going back into a business context, if you were working in one of his companies and he was the CEO, what kind of businessman is he? What kind of CEO and leader would he, would you see him as in a business context?

B (45:27)

Yeah. You know, you think of the, the visionary CEOs that we've had in America, like writ large for 250 years. I mean, what a year to have President Trump be America's president during our 250th anniversary. I mean, this is historic. So, you know, I Think of someone that really transforms industries, whether it's someone like a Steve Jobs that has not just the understanding of a vision, like, wouldn't it be great to have an iPhone? He actually knows how to do it. Like, it's not just an idea guy. He's an actual builder of it. And he is literally a builder. So this is someone who is highly engaged, endlessly focused and energized by the challenges, and also cares about the people around him. He demands high quality people, good communication, the ability to ensure that we're doing the right thing for the American people and explaining everything. I mean, look how transparent he is to open up the Cabinet meetings and to say, we're going to talk about whatever needs to be talked about. We're going to do it in front of the media. So just these kind of transformative CEOs that have made real industrial difference in America.

A (46:52)

He, like you, I believe, were debanked. Eric Trump has talked to us about that. Tell us about your experience. And again, this is the banking sector under the pressure from the Biden administration, attacking the Democrats, political enemies.

B (47:10)

Yeah, look, I've seen it on a personal and professional basis. The president and his family have seen it at scale. And he created an executive order to go after debanking. I mean, I saw it in my campaign. We also were dropped by law firms. I've had that personally and professionally. Look, debanking is something that we have worked on this year. I'm sorry, last year, after the executive order, because the SBA is in a unique, unique position to be able to contact virtually all banks in America, sent a letter and required banks to disclose any examples of it and to ensure that anyone who was debanked was restored if they have a legitimate business case outside of the political dynamics. So we continue to work on that with the bank regulators, so occ, FDIC and the Federal Reserve. And then to see that the Federal Reserve has made changes to bank regulation, which was so important because so many banks hid behind bank regulation, wrongly saying that, oh, you know, we better not bank you. It's a reputational risk to have you as a client. Wow. So I really applaud the Federal Reserve Vice chair, Michelle Voman, for taking action on that very early in President Trump's second term to make clear that that's not acceptable for political, religious or other affiliation reasons. So there's still a lot of work to do there. And I know we're going to continue to be vigilant, not just in debanking, but ensuring that there's no political bias Are we exposed?

C (49:04)

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A (51:03)

So your campaign lost its bank accounts. Is that what happened?

B (51:07)

Well, yeah, we've had that and law firms. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it was just, it was the reality of the time in 2020. And you know, it was coordinated. It was well documented in the Time magazine issue and in 2021 that there was massive coordination to hurt Republicans. And you know, we're, I think we're all still learning from that. What else, what else can we take away to make sure that doesn't happen again?

A (51:38)

That's right. Because what's to stop, you know, the next Joe Biden that wins office, which presumably will happen at some point, doing it all over again? Bullying banks into bending to their will.

B (51:51)

Exactly. I mean, that's I think that's why the President continues to focus on everything from election integrity to reviewing how past elections were run to see where we can learn from it. There's nothing wrong with looking into elections. I think we need common sense. People who say that instead of just saying, well, we just trust that this went well. That's not common sense. We should inspect everything.

A (52:20)

I think your reputation and your image is very polished and you're the richest, I believe, person in the Senate when you were there. And so people get the wrong impression of you that you grew up with a silver spoon in your mouth. But that's not the case, is it?

B (52:39)

Well, I like to say I was the only member of Congress who had ever earned the Chartered Financial Analyst designation. It said three year exam, tough exam, tough exam. The only one ever to have served in Congress. And I always said that people in Washington don't like people who know how to read a P and L. They just want the money to go out the door. But no, I was. And a big reason I had an interest in finance was how I was raised. I grew up on a corn and soybean and cattle farm. My parents had high school degrees essentially. My dad was a third generation farmer, I was a fourth. I grew up working in the fields showing cattle and 4H. Had my own cattle project where I bought and sold my feeder steers each year for a few few hundred bucks. Sewed my own clothes, made my eighth grade graduation dress. I waitressed my way kind of through high school and college. But I always wanted to be in the business world and I saw my parents living the American dream. My dad built a small trucking company based on the skills he learned in the arid National Guard hauling jet fuel. He started a trucking company based on that. I saw the generational change that could take place for a family when a small business starts. And I was able to go to college, whereas they'd never done that. I moved into college in a cattle trailer in the back. But look, you have to start somewhere. And I love my family still farms. I love that. That is part of my story. It still is. It's my favorite reference for me when I'm challenged. I think back to my roots and my farm family upbringing. It has all the answers I need. Very much based in faith and family. So I just feel like my service is so that people like me who grew up, who didn't on a farm, who didn't know if anyone knew they were out there, that they do like this, this administration knows that you're struggling, that you're out there, that you deserve so much better. And that's what we're fighting for every day.

A (55:00)

And you grew up in Bloomington, Illinois. I think that's where your family's farm is. And that's. I always think it's very close to Peoria, which is always, you know, if it plays in Peoria, it's really the essence of Midwestern values. So what are those. What. What are the sort of Midwestern values that ground you?

B (55:23)

Yeah, it's a great. It's a great point. I think they're very much American values. In fact, I grew up in a small town near Bloomington, but I actually grew up in rural America. There was no neighbors around us. We were just out in the open plains of Illinois, about two counties from where Abraham Lincoln was buried and two from where Ronald Reagan was born. And, you know, it's a very straightforward set of values, which is deep religious faith. I was born Roman Catholic. I'm still a devout Catholic. Reliance on family and community. My 4H leaders were volunteers. Like, my mom was a volunteer 4H superintendent. My dad helped with the cattle shows. Like, people didn't have much. I mean, my house, the house I grew up in, did not have heat upstairs in central Illinois. We had electric blankets we could sleep under, but we had ice forming inside the windows. So we didn't have much. But we felt like we had everything because we had family, we had faith, we had decent schools. I went to public school and state university. I mean, kids should be able to succeed and more than succeed on public school and state university, but that's not happening anymore. And so just, you know, everyone did their job. They felt responsible for helping the community. And it was still is, such a beautiful, tough, and important way of life that we need to honor much more than I think we do. I think this administration gets it. I'm actually on a. A rural working group with USDA Secretary Brooke Rollins to ensure that rural America's voice is restored.

A (57:12)

When you were growing up, were you into sport? I believe you were in the marching band. You played an instrument. Tell us a little bit about your hobbies.

B (57:22)

Yeah, I grew up loving to do everything. I grew up. I loved to work, so I always worked in the field walking beans, which meant you're pulling weeds out of the fields during the summers. But I love sports. I loved running. I was a distance runner. Has done a couple marathons, but basketball, volleyball, softball. So lots of sports. And just loved hanging out with my friends and working. Just played the piano, played the French Horn did all that, but was so excited to go to college. So I attended University of Illinois. So I turned 17, I got into college. So I went to college very young, and I could see kind of the world opening up. And I knew I wouldn't ever return to the farm, but, like, my heart would never leave it. So my nephew's now a fifth generation farmer on our farm. I'm so proud of him. And so to me, that is just how do we make sure that we keep building so that next generation can still have the America that we knew back then?

A (58:34)

And I've interviewed now a number of different cabinet members and sort of close into the Trump administration. And the uncanny thing is that every one of them, when they were young, like maybe 10, 12, maybe a little older, some great tragedy befell their family. You know, a father died, or in Mike Johnson's case, his father was a firefighter who was very badly burned, became an invalid, and they then had to step up and take responsibility for, you know, the family farm or whatever it was. Did anything like that ever happen to you in your childhood?

B (59:12)

Look, I never praise God. Had such a devastating incident of losing a close family member. To the contrary, I was surrounded by grandparents, cousins, and uncles and aunts as a family unit. But I. But I always did feel a huge amount of responsibility for contributing, which is why as soon as I got my learner's permit at 15, I started bussing tables. And when I turned 16, I waitressed. Just, I understood I had to contribute to the family. And kind of what I learned from that was, you take one step. And this is why I'm so big on young people, getting job experience, having accountability and responsibility, because work is not a punishment, it is a gift. And to me, it's biblical. We need to talk more about work ethic, because the more I worked, the more I saw results and what I could become. And when I was young, I had braces on my legs, I had eyeglasses, I had a patch on my eye. When I started kindergarten, I had braces on my teeth. All of that is not the biggest influence on positive confidence. But having gone through all of that, you get to know yourself pretty well and what you're capable of and having people underestimate you. And so I think that was a huge thing. And that's why I loved work, because I could show, and I love sports because I could show what I could do, even if people second guessed me, because I was. I used to be very, very tall and skinny and awkward and probably still Am very awkward. But. But, you know, that teenage thing I kind of grew out of. But I think it's so important to not forget those early days of being challenged, because that's really still kind of. It forms that I will always prove myself through my work ethic, through my integrity, and through my results.

A (61:21)

And is that what made you ambitious, you know, to. To leave the farm? Not to do, I guess, what a lot the young women around you in. In your area would have done. Stay behind, you know, marry a farmer, et cetera?

B (61:35)

Yeah, I think I'd always just wanted that. I always wanted to know what was outside of the farm. I saw my parents building their farm, my mom helping dispatch trucks in the trucking company, and I wanted to have my own business. I was just set on being successful in the business world. When I was young, my parents had me fill out time cards when I worked in the machine shop or in the fields because they wanted me to see how hard it was to earn a dollar. And I would take that maybe 20 bucks a week or whatever, because it's like 2 bucks an hour, and all it would take would be one day at the mall to blow it. So I learned very early discipline, but also the kind of pride of a job well done. So that was such a great lesson. And I feel for kids whose parents are saying, well, I'm protecting you from work for as long as possible, because that's really awful. And the sooner you jump in and figure out what you're good at, what you're not good at, where you need to improve, the sky's the limit.

A (62:41)

Yeah, independence for kids, it's something that they value and they get with work. And then so you went into the business world, you finished your mba, I believe, and then you worked at Toyota and a couple of other companies. And then you ended up coming to a company where your boss is now your husband. Tell us about that. Jeff Sprecher. Wonderful man.

B (63:07)

So I never. I reported to the CFO. So I was recruited in, I guess it was 2002, to a small startup. I'd been an equity analyst. I moved into venture capital. I did venture for a year or two. And then there was a startup that my boss at the venture firm was going to be the CFO of. And he said, I'll. I'll take you with me.

A (63:31)

Right.

B (63:32)

As soon as I get settled. So I had to interview for the job through him and several other of the leaders of the startup company had less than 100 employees. And one of the interviews was the CEO. The founder Jeff Sprecher. And so I got the job and I ended up running investor relations and corporate communications because the company was getting ready to go public. And I had my equity analyst background, my Wall street, my venture. Like I could talk the talk. Set up the whole like IPO process with the bankers and the analysts and everything. Well, it turns out no one was doing marketing. And I was like, I can't execute an IPO if we don't have a consistent brand. That the thing had like five websites and it was a tiny company. So they said, well, you can be the marketing person, but we're not going to pay you anymore. And I was like, fine, I just have, we have to have this. So ended up helping build the company over 15, 17 years. Jeff and I, we did meet there. I told him, I'll sign something if something happens. I'm not going to sue you, but I need this job. So I'm not quitting if we don't. So we never told anyone we were dating until we were engaged.

A (64:55)

Wow.

B (64:57)

Worked together for many years. I've very much missed working with him for the last six years. But it was such a blessing to build a company from less than 100 with him to I think today it's now like 15,000 people, almost $100 billion market cap. We took the company public on the New York stock exchange in 2005 and in 2013 closed on a transaction to buy the New York Stock Exchange. So it was truly the American dream. And in the interim between that, we made a hostile bid on the Chicago Board of Trade, which is the exchange that I grew up listening to corn, soybean, and cattle prices being quoted on every day where my interest in markets first started. So it's truly a full circle story, which is why I so love serving the American people, because I want everyone to have this kind of story. I just want people to know that this is possible with a little bit of hard work, a little bit of risk taking and self improvement like I went through, I think in a lot of faith, I think this, this will be possible in America again.

A (66:11)

Yes. I mean, going to, to a little startup was a leap of faith in itself, I guess, for you. And, and you've been married now to Jeff for 22 years, I believe. Congrats. And he's a great guy, very much a bit of a foil to you. He's sort of very energetic, very obviously entrepreneurial, but you two obviously get on really well. And has he been behind your political sort of journey? Because obviously that was disruptive for your life.

B (66:50)

Well, you're, you're absolutely right. It. It has been disruptive in his life. But I have had no bigger supporter than Jeff. I mean, it's such a blessing. And because of who he is, he is, he is honest, he is hardworking, he's visionary, he's brilliant, and he just gets after it every day. And he had the whole vision for this company that he's built that now operates something like, I don't know, 13 exchanges around the world. But he never hesitated when I wanted to do something in politics. He never said, well, this is how it might impact me. He just said, I believe in you. I know you're going to do the right thing. Go for it. And that has just been. It's still like, give me chills when I think about how much he has on the line with what I'm doing. But he just, you know, he does his thing. He does it great, and I'm incredibly blessed.

A (67:51)

And why did you decide, I mean, you've done so incredibly well in business. Why would you, I guess, risk that, really? Because you certainly came under a lot of pressure to go into politics for, you know, a meager salary and a lot of hard work.

B (68:10)

Well, first of all, I donate my. I've donated my pay since the Senate. It has nothing to do with the compensation. I donate it to local deserving organizations or, you know, impacted by disasters or otherwise. But, you know, I mentioned about 15 years ago, I got involved in politics, and the more I was in business, the more I saw we need outsiders to come in and ask questions and to look into things that haven't been looked into. I mean, at the spa, I'm investigating a program, almost $50 billion program, that we run, that has never been audited, that is rife with waste and fraud. And so no one had ever thought to audit the program. And so we just need outsiders in there doing it. And once I got inside side and saw what was going on, you couldn't unsee it. And I said, I've been too blessed in life. I have to do something about it. But also, once you're attacked and you see who your real friends are and what the real important things in life are, it doesn't matter like you're willing to. And I know the president and his family have been through this in his phase. It's like, it's too important. It's not about me, and we are going to fix this. And I think that's the resolve and the resilience and the commitment that the entire cabinet brings is like, this is bigger than us. It's not about us. And this is really about the stakes. What's at stake, not just in elections, but like in the world. If we don't have an exceptional America that we're all willing to, to fight for, it is going to slip away because allies and adversaries alike would be happy to let us drain, to have that drain out of us.

A (70:04)

And lastly, Kelly Lefler, thanks for all your time. I wanted to ask you, you've been around a lot of successful people. You are incredibly successful. What is the one thing you could say, say would be the secret of success?

B (70:20)

Oh, it's such a great question. I think, you know, I would say, you know, secret of success. I know it sounds trite, but I would say hard work. There, there's no shortcut. And I, I love the quote that says it has something to do with, you know, hard work is often overlooked because, or success is often overlooked because it is wearing overalls and looks a lot like hard work. And there, there's no substitute for that. And, and what goes into that isn't just like running hard and hitting your head against wall. It's intellectual curiosity. It's intellectual integrity. It's, it's what they say when athletes are, it's not about just about what you do on the court. It's how you practice. It's doing the right things when no one's watching. That all takes discipline and hard work. So I think that's, for me, that's been the bottom line and that's probably my superpower.

A (71:29)

Great advice. Thanks so much, Kelly Lefleth.

B (71:32)

Thank you, Miranda. It's been an absolute honor. Thank you.

A (71:36)

Thanks so much for tuning in to Pod Force One. Let us know what you thought of this week's episode in the comments below. And don't forget to like and subscribe so you don't miss future episodes.

B (71:50)

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