Busy Philipps Meets World

Summary

Pod Meets World: Busy Philipps Meets World (Dec 4, 2025)

Podcast: Pod Meets World
Host(s): Danielle Fishel, Will Friedle, Rider Strong
Guest: Busy Philipps
Original Airdate: December 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode welcomes Busy Philipps, acclaimed actress and multi-hyphenate, for a candid and often hilarious conversation about her unique journey as a young performer in the 1990s and 2000s. Covering everything from her acting origins in Arizona to defining roles on "Freaks and Geeks" and "Dawson's Creek," the episode is rich with memorable anecdotes, career reflections, insider Hollywood moments, and an honest exploration of both the joys and struggles of growing up on set.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Busy Philipps’ Origin Story

(22:22–26:46)

• Grew up in Arizona, always knew she wanted to act; was a self-styled theater kid.
• Early ambitions included wanting to join shows like "Boy Meets World" after watching them as a child.
• Family was supportive but not in the traditional Hollywood stage-parent way.
• Landed her first gigs through a local agent: “I did this Mattel toy fair job as a Barbie, a live Barbie, which was like an acting job in quotation marks.” (25:27, Busy)
• Her Barbie connection led to her LA move and first manager.

2. Breaking into Hollywood: From College to the Big Break

(26:46–29:38)

• Attended Loyola Marymount University, majoring in theatre.
• Very focused on getting professional representation and work while still a student.
• Attended the Oxford School of Drama during a summer break, made industry connections that led to her big audition.

3. Landing “Freaks and Geeks”

(28:15–30:23)

• The "Freaks and Geeks" audition process was unusually fast.
• Initially read for the lead, Lindsay Weir, before being offered the role of Kim Kelly (not originally in the pilot).
• “It's one of those things where I, like, went outside for ten minutes and then went back in and did my Kim Kelly audition, which is in the DVD extras, if anybody has them.” (30:17, Busy)
• Wasn’t included in the opening credits at first, since she was initially a guest star.

4. Early Career Experiences & On-Set Learning

(33:34–34:52)

• Became friends with Linda Cardellini via chance meeting at the airport before "Freaks and Geeks."
• On-set learning: “She taught me everything from, like, what to order at craft services to, like, how to make your trailer. Really. How to turn on the heat in your trailer...” (33:55, Busy)
• Had no on-camera experience prior; learned it all by doing.

5. Freaks and Geeks: The Cult Classic Journey

(37:08–39:18)

• Realized how special the show was only after seeing the pilot.
• Drew comparisons with “My So-Called Life,” noting it was ahead of its time.
• Dealt with the crushing disappointment of its early cancellation, despite industry respect: “At the time that it then didn't take off, was that absolutely devastating?” (38:57, Danielle)
• The cast’s later success is a testament to the show’s impact.

6. Casting Real Teens – Not Just TV-Pretty Faces

(41:15–43:24)

• Discussion on how "Freaks and Geeks" broke the mold by casting real, relatable teenagers: “I wasn't hot as a teenager. I was, like, weird and a little... I wasn't that era's very specific idea of beauty. I just did not... I didn't really fit into it.” (42:58, Busy)

7. Transition to “Dawson’s Creek”

(48:40–51:10)

• Auditioned for and joined the show in season five; hadn’t watched it before being cast.
• Had to relocate to Wilmington, NC; found the experience both daunting and formative.
• Became fast friends with Michelle Williams: “We thought that Fig Newtons were health food.” (51:10, Busy, joking with Danielle and Rider)

8. Reunion for a Cause – Broadway Benefit

(52:51–55:22)

• Shared details about the cast’s recent reunion for the F*Cancer charity.
• Reflected on the emotion and nostalgia of coming together for the first time since the show’s end.

9. Being Excluded from the “Dawson’s Creek” Finale

(61:14–65:32)

• Discussed her disappointment at being left out of the two-part finale: “Kevin Williamson came back to write the finale. And... I got paid for it, guys, right? But what I heard at the time was Kevin was like, I don’t know this character. I didn’t create her, so she’s not going to be in the finale. And I was... pretty devastated.” (61:41, Busy)
• Shared a moving story of Kevin Williamson apologizing 25 years later at the reunion:
  • “He took me aside and was like, I have to say something... I want to apologize for not putting you in the finale... I could have done better and I didn’t, and I’m sorry.” (64:43, Busy)
  • “I literally started crying. And I was like, Kevin, that means so much to me.” (64:55, Busy)
• Danielle, Will, and Rider related this to similar experiences on “Boy Meets World,” especially with Trina McGee’s exclusion from their own finale.

10. Behind the Scenes – Treasured Roles & Missed Opportunities

(69:49–72:17)

• When asked which show she’d revisit, Busy cited “Girls5eva”: “I love the show so much, and I know it sort of just ended, but I really miss it.” (69:58, Busy)
• Discussed how missed auditions/jobs always worked out in her favor: “Your career is your career... Not getting jobs... has always worked in my favor.” (71:12, Busy)
• Disclosed that she missed out on auditioning for “Mean Girls” due to a scheduling conflict with “White Chicks” – but “White Chicks” went on to become one of her most recognized roles:
  • “At least five times a week... someone will say something to me about White Chicks.” (72:17, Busy)

11. Hosting & QVC – Reinvention and Breaking TV Barriers

(72:43–77:42)

• Described her pivot from late-night talk show host to podcasting, then hosting “Busy This Week” on QVC’s streaming network.
• Shared frustration over the lack of opportunities for women in late-night.
• “I've long felt the inequality of not having women be the hosts of these shows or given... longer than a year to find an audience.” (73:00, Busy)
• Ryder expresses discomfort with traditional talk show formats, sparking a discussion about the pressures of soundbites and the different ways personalities fit (or don’t) into these roles.

12. Advice to Her Younger Self

(79:21–81:13)

• When asked what she’d tell her “Freaks and Geeks” self:
  • “There was nothing that I could ever tell that girl... She wouldn’t have listened anyway.” (80:01, Busy)
  • Eventually lands on, “Maybe get diagnosed with ADHD sooner. Because I think I spent a lot of time feeling really terrible about my brain and then in my late 30s, was diagnosed and I was like, oh, now it all makes sense.” (80:51, Busy)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

On Industry Disappointments and Redemption

• “I just wasn't. I wasn't around. And then the craziest thing happened… Kevin Williamson… took me aside and was like, I have to say something that I've really been thinking about… I want to apologize for not putting you in the finale... and I'm sorry.”
  (64:43–64:51, Busy – a powerful closure moment)

On Realness vs. Teen Drama Beauty Standards

• “I remember reading a review of ‘Freaks and Geeks’ that was like, you won’t find any beautiful people here. And I was a little bit like…well, I mean, okay, I mean, that's harsh…But yeah.”
  (43:24, Busy, laughing off old-fashioned criticism)

On the Value of Feeling Valued

• “Going from that experience [‘Freaks and Geeks’] and then feeling like, oh, I really was not... valued at all in this show... it really gave me a roadmap for how I would want to be treated on set.”
  (69:48, Busy)

On Not Fitting the Mold in Teen TV

• “I wasn't hot as a teenager. I was like weird and a little... I didn't really fit into [the beauty standard]. I’m actually like a super hot 40-year-old woman!”
  (42:58, Busy, self-aware and funny)

On Missed Opportunities and Career Faith

• “Nothing haunts me…Your career is your career…not getting jobs, while in the moment that rejection can be devastating, ultimately, it has always worked in my favor.”
  (71:12, Busy – on Hollywood resilience)

On Self-Acceptance and ADHD Diagnosis

• “Maybe get diagnosed with ADHD sooner…I think I spent a lot of time feeling really terrible about my brain and then in my late 30s, was diagnosed and I was like, oh, now it all makes sense.”
  (80:51, Busy – practical advice to her younger self)

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Fun & Lighthearted Moments

• The crew debates the appeal of California Pizza Kitchen—with Busy sad there are none in New York now. (36:38–36:49)
• Jokes about founding a “cult” commune in Colorado for perfect weather and podcast fans, riffing on culty tropes and group dynamics. (07:09–09:47)
• “Fig Newtons are health food!”—Busy and Michelle Williams’ early beliefs, playfully debunked by the hosts. (51:08–52:16)

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Highlighted Timestamps

• 03:36–09:47: Humorous off-topic chat about weather preferences and founding a commune in Colorado/Montana.
• 19:00–22:33: Introduction of Busy Philipps and her filmography; “The Gift” movie anecdote.
• 22:33–26:46: Busy’s acting origin and early ambitions.
• 28:15–30:23: Auditioning for "Freaks and Geeks."
• 37:08–39:18: Realizing the show’s greatness and its cancellation shock.
• 42:11–43:28: Navigating body image and beauty standards in teen shows.
• 48:40–52:51: Transition to “Dawson’s Creek” and bonding with Michelle Williams.
• 61:14–65:32: Exclusion from “Dawson’s Creek” finale and Williamson’s apology 25 years on.
• 69:49–72:17: On favorite roles and how missed chances often work out for the best.
• 79:21–81:13: Advice for her younger self; the value of an ADHD diagnosis.

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, open, and peppered with humor, nostalgia, and relatable showbiz stories. Busy is candid and self-deprecating, while Danielle, Will, and Rider bring both loving curiosity and shared perspective from their own TV “kid” backgrounds. The whole vibe is a mix of cozy reunion and real talk about the unpredictable nature of show business.

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For Listeners

Whether you grew up on “Freaks and Geeks,” “Dawson’s Creek,” or “Boy Meets World,” this episode serves up deep nostalgia, wise career insights, backstage tales, and a reminder that everyone—even beloved TV faces—deals with feeling out of place or overlooked. Busy Philipps brings her trademark candor and humor, making this a standout Pod Meets World interview.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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I dropped Indy off at school this morning and.

[A]

On the way home I.

[D]

Was like, I am so happy right now. Like, I'm so excited for the day and I'm feeling all fulfilled and I'm.

[C]

Like, what is it? Why?

[D]

Why am I feeling so good? And then I realized it's because it's raining. I love it, too. Have you guys heard of seasonal affective disorder?

[C]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah. You have the opposite.

[C]

I have the opposite. Right.

[D]

Okay. You have happy, right?

[C]

I get so happy.

[B]

I do, too.

[D]

And I have to. Okay, you're the same way.

[B]

I'm the same way.

[C]

So.

[D]

But here's the question, and this is I feel like we have. So we must have a lot of mental health professional listeners, people who do this for a living and can weigh in on this. And I'm curious how you guys feel about it. Is that, like, just intrinsic to me that I just like cold weather and rain, or is it purely contextual? And if I lived in Seattle and.

[C]

I was there for like a month, I'd be miserable?

[D]

You think it's purely contextual?

[C]

I do, too. Yeah, whatever. You constantly have all the time you want. The anytime it changes, it's good, right? I feel the same way where I hear it. Right. Like, there's nothing like you wake up in the morning here, you hear the rain on your roof, you're still curled up in bed. It's like, oh, this is going to be a magical day.

[B]

It's also like, if you know you're having a storm that weekend and then for just that weekend, you change your plans. We're not going to go out. We're going to stay in fires. Hot cocoa. Let's order in some food. That's a storm.

[C]

Every day at my house.

[B]

Every if every day for months on End. You have to go out in the rain, work in the rain, see your friends in the rain. Like, your clothes are always wet. You've got to take a hat and your gloves. It's like, you would just be over it.

[D]

Okay, but then if that's the case, which I pretty much agree, then shouldn't the goal for all of us humans be to find variety and seasons, Right? Like, shouldn't we want to live places where they're not too extreme?

[C]

But therein lies the problem. Variation.

[D]

And it never lasts more than, like, two months in one load, right? Because what ends up happening, right? Like, everyone on the east coast wants to live in Florida or Phoenix or la, right? Because they're like. Especially as they get older, it's like, that's where everyone retires. And I think that's the wrong impulse because then you're just going somewhere where it's just always hot, always sunny.

[C]

So I was just in Connecticut last week, and sue is back in Massachusetts. And we always talk about, like, when we're back there for a very short amount of time, we're like, man, you know, living here, I could definitely leave LA and just come. And then we go for the same week sometimes in August, and the bugs are insane and the humidity's awful, and we're like, ugh, okay, so I wouldn't want to do the summers. And then we go in the winter, and we're like, oh, my God, it's cold and awesome. And by day four, where all the snow is gray and it's on everything and you're stamping stuff out, you're like, well, I don't want to be here in the winter either. So then you kind of go, that doesn't look like.

[B]

I think I just like spring and.

[D]

Spring and spring and fall, spring and fall for a little bit.

[C]

The question. We literally did this. We went on and we were, like, trying to find the place of the happy medium. And what we kind of found is certain parts, believe it or not, of Colorado that are not. You're not in the mountains and you're not in the low parts of Colorado, but kind of in the middle right there. Like, you know, two towns in Colorado have perfect, perfect weather all the time. Okay, so, well, that's where we're just going to have to congregate, is we're going to have to find the one town in Colorado that has the perfect, perfect weather and go there.

[B]

Is it wrong for me to want to cut this from the podcast? I just.

[D]

I don't want everyone moving to Those two towns in Colorado Commune. Let's go. I mean, it'll be the pod meets commune. Invite our listeners.

You know, get it going.

Danielle can be our cult leader. It'll be.

[B]

I'm not opposed. I'm not opposed to it.

[C]

Is there going to be weird sex stuff? We talked about this.

[D]

There could be a division.

[B]

Yeah, there could be. I don't want to stop anyone.

[D]

Right.

[B]

You know, so like, I would.

[A]

I would.

[D]

A great leader.

[A]

She.

[D]

She will allow us to form our own little sex.

[B]

Of course.

[C]

Yes. Oh my God. The Colorado Dan will be on the news. We'll definitely make the news as the Colorado. Like, this is a weird hippie commune. Yeah. Cuz it always ends well with cults. We'll have a documentary that'll be, that'll be made. Yeah.

[D]

20 years from now.

[A]

There'll be a.

[D]

A retrospective that'll be like, what went wrong?

[C]

Exactly.

[D]

Danielle got power hungry.

[C]

She did all the Topangas. She made us all walk into court.

[D]

We all became ballroom dancers for some reason. It was like, this is the best workout.

[C]

This is what you need to do.

[B]

Everyone needs to do.

[D]

Everyone must dance.

[A]

How's your flexibility?

[B]

How's your flexibility?

[C]

Thanks for joining us on jive night.

[D]

Let's do it. All right. Colorado, like. Yeah. Boulder area.

[C]

We'll find the area. We'll start the cult.

[B]

What about Montana? I like Montana. Does Montana have some of that?

[C]

Yeah, I think some of that. Yeah. But we're also more off the beaten path in Montana. I think we can get away with more weird cult stuff in Montana.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[C]

Although I've never been.

[B]

Oh, wow. Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

No, it's one of like the three states I've never been to. Never been to Idaho either, so.

[B]

Yeah, Utah.

[D]

And proud of it. All right, so we'll start looking at land. We're going to need like, probably like 500 acres if we're inviting all of our listeners.

[B]

I agree.

[E]

I agree.

[D]

We need a lot of land and Montana a lot of money. Cheaper than Colorado.

[A]

Right.

[C]

A lot of.

[D]

Oh, that's right.

[C]

See, Danielle's going to need a bougie cult. We're going to be. We're going to be flowing all of our money up is the problem.

[B]

If you think this cold, diamond encrusted.

[D]

Throne, it's not there's.

[A]

It's.

[C]

There's prices for weird sex stuff.

[D]

Right.

[B]

Whatever you guys decide to gift me is. Is up to you. I'm not going to ask for anything. But as your leader, you may Feel like you want to gift me things, but, like, there's no. There's no, like, judgment about it.

[D]

10% of your income would be nice to have going towards.

[B]

I mean, tithing is.

Is what we do here. And I will share it with you. You know I will. I will. Like, when I buy the private jet, we would all be able to go on it.

[C]

It all starts like that, and then it's just you taking the private jets somewhere. Riders bearing bodies in the woods. I mean, it's gonna get fat. Cause that's gonna be your job.

[B]

Oh, I see that. I have to.

[C]

Danielle's gonna be pointing, and it's gonna be us doing her. And they'll be like, you said there was a private jet. And she's like, there is. It's just not for you.

[B]

Yeah, it's for me to get out of here. When the.

[C]

Exactly. Oh, excited.

[D]

God. We got there from seasonal affective disorder.

Well, it's raining in LA and I'm happy. Guys, Time to start a cult. Okay, that's pre show chatter right in the gutter.

[A]

Welcome to Pod Meets World.

[B]

I'm Danielle Fishel.

[D]

I'm Ryder Strong.

[C]

And I'm Will Friedle.

[B]

Hey, it's Danielle Fishel. Podcaster, TV director, recent Dancing with the Stars contestant, and mother of 2. But to 90% of the podcast pop culture stratosphere, I am forever Topanga Lawrence, a character I played from the ages 12 to 19 on the 90s family sitcom Boy Meets World. I spent my entire teenage years on tv, inside millions of homes and in front of a live studio audience. From my first kiss to my first haircut, absolutely everything was caught on camera. So now, 30 years later, it's time to turn the tables for my new podcast, Teen Beat with Danielle Fishel. I'll be sitting down with other celebrities to unearth the details of their untelevised upbringings. Since their first pimple wasn't broadcast as part of the TGIF block of shame, the least they can do is share it with me. Now I'm asking guests to open their childhood diaries and reveal embarrassing fashion choices, school crushes, dramatic friend fallouts. Using our nostalgic and awkward pasts as a roadmap to understand who we are today. And you as listeners, will also get to share your stories with us. I promise we won't laugh too much. So it's time to make things fair. I gave you my childhood. It's time I hear yours. Listen to Teen Beat with Danielle Fishel. Starting on January 7th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[B]

It is a rare occurrence that we get offered a podcast guest who perfectly captures what it felt like to be a young actor in the wild and wonderful world of the 90s and early 2000s. Whether it's the auditions, the heartbreak, the friendships, the rapid fire fame, or the supposed big breaks that were canceled during season one, they are all topics we hope to address with honesty and humor on the podcast. But very little of us have done it as well or effortlessly as this week's guest. Before she became the multi hyphenate force she is now, she was also one of those kids hustling between sets, memorizing lines in the car, and navigating an industry that didn't exactly hand out survival guides. From Freaks and Geeks to Dawson's Creek. As a young adult, she was part of shows that helped define a generation. She's one of those rare people who can make you laugh, make you think, and make you feel slightly better about the absolute chaos of your own youth because she has been extremely open about hers. We love a guest who's lived it, learned from it, and isn't afraid to give you the whole story. So please welcome to Pod Meets World. Busy Phillips.

[A]

Hi, guys.

[F]

Hi.

[C]

Hi.

[B]

Thank you so much for being here. I'm thrilled. I have to ask this question. How many people do you tell to go watch the movie the Gift? Because it is a criminally underrated masterpiece. I tell everyone about this.

[A]

I'm in it.

[B]

I. I know.

[A]

I'm not even kidding. I don't think I've ever seen it.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah. And in fact, my godson, my best friend's son, who's.

19 now, I guess.

[C]

Whoa.

[A]

He texted me not long ago and he's like, whoa, I'm watching the craziest movie and it's so good. And you're in it's in it. Yes.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

I love that you love it. Joel Edgerton, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Wrote it and directed it.

[B]

It is. Is an incredible movie and I. I literally talk to everybody about it. At some point, it comes up, like, underrated movies that people need to see. You've got to see the gift writer. Will.

Yeah.

[C]

Walk us through this.

[B]

Okay. It's a really great movie about a guy who was bullied or not treated very well as a kid who comes back into this kind of family's life.

[A]

And Rebecca hall and Jason Bateman, right?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And it's kind of a dream team.

[B]

It's a thriller, but that's also got some comedy in it. But it is. It's just good. It's riveting, and it's criminally underrated, and nobody knows about it. And I'm always like, you have to see the Gift.

[C]

So anyway, Fizzy was in it and hasn't seen it.

[B]

I know this feels like a real shame.

[F]

It is.

[A]

But I think it was, like, one of those times in my life where I had very small children. I mean, I know it was.

[B]

Yeah, Okay.

[A]

I had, like, Cricket was still like, a baby, basically. And I was filming Cougar Town. I think at the same time, you.

[B]

Had some things going on.

[F]

I did.

[A]

And, like. And so I couldn't go to the premiere of it. And then, you know, I don't know about you guys as performers, as actors, but I do find it a little strange sometimes to, like, just, I'm gonna sit down and watch myself. So I never really saw the movie, but honestly, you're selling it to me. I want to see it.

[B]

I want everyone to watch it this weekend. It's a rainy weekend in Los Angeles. Just please put on. Put on the gift.

[C]

It's a 2015 psychological thriller where a couple encounters a figure from the husband's past who begins to torment them with unsettling gifts.

[A]

Gifts. And they had a really. I do remember this because a few people had reached out to me. They had a really funny marketing campaign where they would. They were finding out. I mean, these are 2015. It's, like, sort of the early days of influencing influencer marketing. But they, like, found out weird things about actors and influencers and sent them gifts. Creepy presence. Yes. Like, based on, like, things they couldn't have known. I actually remember. I remember the marketing campaign more because I feel like people were reaching out to me. Like, what is this thing?

[B]

What is this creepy thing that you guys are doing?

[C]

You should also not confuse it with The Gift from 2000 with Cate Blanchett.

[D]

That's so cool.

[A]

And Katie Holmes is in it. Katie Holmes is in that gift.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Gotcha. And Hilary Swank. Wow. Holmes and Swank.

[B]

Holmes and Swank.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, well, I want to start. Now that I've gotten that movie out of the way, I want to start with your acting origin story. You were raised in Arizona, right? You were a Scottsdale Chaparral grad.

[A]

Yes, that's correct. Correct. Got it. Nailed it.

[B]

Was Hollywood always in your sights growing up? Were you a theater kid?

[A]

100%, yeah. I did it all. And I, like from the time when I was in elementary school, wanted to. I was watching you guys and I was like, why am I not there yet? And my mom was like, because busy. I'm not giving up my life for you. And I was like, okay, fair, fair. What's your. And now that I have. She was a real estate agent. My dad's an engineer. I mean, they're both retired now. But I really relate to this deeply now because my own 17 year old daughter has done some acting and there's just nothing worse than being a parent on set.

[B]

I know, I know. Ryder is also starting to experience this a little bit.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Ryder, how old is your child?

[D]

He's only 10. He's turning 11 and so far he's only done voiceover. That's like all we're allowing him to do. But yeah, I mean, it's mostly. I mean, since it's voiceover, it's not that bad, but it's pretty boring and it's just so hard to keep your mouth shut and you just have to like, go and be like the person that nobody cares about, nobody wants on the set. And you just have to sort of be like, yep, here I am. I guess I'll just read my book and hope my kid is well directed because I know. Yeah. And then like, there have been times when somebody's not great at giving him notes and I just want to jump in and be like, let me just.

[B]

I can't understand.

[A]

I fully did that this summer. Yeah, I like, actually was like told the director what to say to her to like.

[B]

So funny. Well, you know, you know her better than they do. You know what's going to get something out of her more than they will, right?

[A]

Yeah. And I just felt like I could just see it. I just saw her, the wheels turning in her brain and I was like, I know exactly what you need to say to her to get her to do what you need her to do. Yeah. But it is wild. So anyway, that was so my mom was like, no, rightfully so. Your parents were all saints, I imagine. And. Or I don't know, I actually have no idea.

[B]

But they Were they were all saints? I don't know.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I read Jeanette McCurdy's book. You know what I mean? Like, it goes two ways, guys.

[C]

You never know. Yeah.

[B]

We didn't have any of that experience on this in this zoom.

[A]

Fantastic. But.

I was always planning to go to Los Angeles for college because I wanted to start working as soon as I could. And in my junior and senior year of high school in Arizona, I got a local agent and I got a local commercial, and I did this Mattel toy fair job as a Barbie, a live Barbie, which was like an acting job in quotation marks.

And what kind of Barbie were you? I was the clueless doll from the TV show. The clueless TV show that was based on the movie.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, yeah. That starred Rachel. TV show was on Gif for a period of time.

[D]

Parliament.

[A]

Correct. Yeah, correct. And I was in high school when I heard, like, on, you know, the radio, the morning news radio, that they were casting a clueless TV show. And I was like, ugh, I have to be Cher.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

I mean, obviously it was, like, already cast. I'm in Arizona listening to it on the news. And.

That was what forced me, or how I convinced my mom that I needed to get a local agent. Cause I was like, I wanna audition for the Clueless TV show, which obviously was already cast. But then I got this job being the clueless doll for Mattel.

[B]

Oh, that's so cool.

[A]

The next year, and honestly, I met an actress from LA who was a Barbie girl as well. Her name is Lisa Guerrero. And she introduced me when I moved to LA and I went to Loyola Marymount University. She introduced me to the woman that became my first manager, who signed me and then, like, got my agents. And then it just was, like, very quick after that.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

Did you slide. Did you slide down the LMU letters?

[A]

No. Is that a thing?

[C]

Of course.

I got into LMU and was gonna go, and so I spent like a week there just figuring out what I was gonna do. Everyone's like, you gotta slide down the letters. So they brought everybody to the LMU letters and slid down the letters? Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Wait, what?

[A]

No, I didn't know about that. I would have done that. You can still do it.

[B]

Maybe. You know, she was too busy working.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

Never too old to slide down the lmu.

[D]

So wait, when you went to lmu, were you going for acting film or were you doing a backup option?

[A]

No, I was going for, like. I was the theater major and an English minor. But I. I Was really sort of laser focused on getting an agent as soon as I could and trying to start working. And so the summer after my freshman year, I went and did a drama program in England at the Oxford School of Drama, like their summer program. It was really fun. And then.

You know who did it? Do you know the actor Zack Knighton?

[D]

Do you know.

[A]

Happy Endings? You know that show? Yeah, he was on that show. Anyway, he and I were there together in England. And then I came back, and Lorraine, you know, I went and auditioned for agents, and I got, you know, a small agency picked me up. And then.

That spring, that pilot season, I got Freaks and Geeks.

[B]

That's what I was gonna ask you. How quickly then did you read for Freaks and Geeks? Yeah, right away.

[A]

It was right away. Yeah, it was right away. It was pretty.

[B]

Wow. What was that audition process like?

[A]

It was really fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you know anything about. Like, did you know of Judd Apatow or Paul Feig?

[A]

No. No, because they. I mean, Judd had done Larry Sanders, but we didn't have HBO growing up.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I didn't know really what it was.

And I think Paul had just written the movie Heavyweights at the time. But, like, I didn't. I didn't know what that movie was. And.

I had gone in for a general meeting at NBC, and Grace Wu, who's now, I believe, the head of casting for all of NBC, was one of the associate casting people at NBC. And she really was lovely to me and liked me a lot in my general meeting. And she was like, you know, we have this pilot. I'll give you the script. You should read it, but you should definitely go in for it. Alison Jones is casting it. It's called Freaks and Geeks. And I literally remember her pulling the script out and handing it to me. And I had auditioned for Roswell. That was the same season as Roswell that my college boyfriend Colin Hanks got cast on.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

So I had auditioned for Allyson for Roswell, and so she brought me right in. I didn't pre read. You know, guys, if you're listening to this, I'm sure you know, but a pre read is where you read just for the casting director. So I got to just go straight to the producers. And I was auditioning for Lindsey Weir for the main girl because Kim Kelly wasn't a character yet in the pilot. And I did my read, and then I think it was. I think it was Paul that was like, hey, busy. We have this other part. Would you take a look at it? And and come back in and give it a shot. And so, you know, it was like one of those things. I, like, went outside for 10 minutes and then went back in and did my Kym Kelly audition, which is in the DVD extras, if anybody has them.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

And.

From that, I was cast on the show because they didn't test that part. I didn't have to screen test for that part.

Because it was.

Initially just a guest star for the pilot, which is also why I'm not in the opening credits. But they added me as a series regular after the show got picked up.

[D]

Wait, so you can watch your audition from back then? How do you feel about it now when you watch it back? Are you like, oh, that makes sense. Or are you like, what were they thinking?

[A]

Well, it's so funny because I did a podcast like a year and a half ago, and they played it for me. Like, I hadn't watched it in so. I mean, I hadn't watched it in so long. And they played it for me. And I mean, it's really cute. Don't you guys die when you look at. When you watch yourselves?

[B]

Yeah, I don't like it. I don't love it.

[A]

You don't?

[B]

No, not really.

[D]

For the most part.

[C]

I love watching myself. I hate watching both of them.

[B]

That's the difference. Yeah, that sounds about right.

So did you not have to chemistry test with everyone? Like, as the cast was rounding out? There was none of that. You basically just auditioned for the producers, went out for 10 minutes, came back, read for Kim Kelly, and then. And that was it. You had the job.

[A]

And that was it. They offered me the job. But what was crazy is that Linda Cardellini and I. Linda Cardellini and I have the same birthday, but she is four years older than me. And she was.

I guess technically like on a break from LMU because she had been working so much. But so she was essentially like a senior when I was a freshman. But she wasn't actively going to school, but she was around. Like, I knew. Cause the theater department, like, everybody knew her. She was kind of like the star of the theater department. And so I was already friends with her. And I ran into her at LAX when I was picking up my boyfriend, Colin Hanks, and she was picking up her roommate. And remember when you were young and you had to pick people up at the airport?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Well, now you're married, I still have.

[A]

To pick people up.

[C]

I still pick people up.

[B]

He doesn't do the Uber situation. He just goes and picks people up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, you're maybe a good person.

[C]

I'd like to think so. I love my wife, too. She's pretty cool. So she's like, I'd rather go pick her up. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That's rad.

Well, anyway, I ran into her, and she had just gotten the part, and I had been offered the part of Kim Kelly. And my agents at the time were a little bit like, we don't know if you should do it. Cause it's just a guest star, and it's early in pilot season, and we feel like you're gonna get a regular, like a pilot. You know, it's like one of those things where. And I really didn't know what to do, but I. But running into Linda, she was like, dude, I just got it. And Judd told me that you're gonna be Kim Kelly. They want you for Kim Kelly. You gotta do it. And it just was like, as soon as I saw her and found that out, I was like, oh, well, obviously this is what I'm doing. Because also, I was so nervous to do my first actual real job and to have someone like Linda next to me or, you know, sort of showing me the ropes. I mean, she taught me everything from, like, what to order at craft services to, like, how to make your trailer. Really? How to turn on the heat in your trailer?

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And then, like, all the on camera stuff. Like, she's like, I like to pick a place to look. Like, I didn't know. You don't know any of that stuff.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, you guys were kids. Who taught you?

[B]

Our directors.

[D]

Yeah. On set, we were so young. It was like. Yeah. We had to just be told, like, open to camera, you know, in multicam. Like, that whole idea of, like, pulling your shoulders and standing on your laugh.

[C]

Do all that kind of stuff. Yeah, definitely.

[D]

Definitely. But wait, so you hadn't taken any, like, on camera acting classes? It was all theater stuff up until then?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

They didn't even, like. I don't even think that they kind of. I don't think they offered that at lmu. Like, I don't think that was in anything. And I mean, I didn't have a ton of. I worked at California Pizza Kitchen. I didn't, like, have a ton of money, so I wasn't, like, paying to do those classes that you would see, you know, the film acting or, you know, acting for the camera classes. You would, like, see, you know, whatever advertised all over town.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I don't. I just didn't. And I was a kid. I Mean, I was like 19, I guess. Yeah, I was 19.

[C]

I'm curious, which CPK you worked at?

[A]

Marina Del Rey, honey.

[C]

So when my brother moved out to Los Angeles for a year back in 1980 something, that's where he worked.

[A]

Wait, really?

[B]

The Marina del Rey?

[C]

The Marina del Rey cpk. And he left with a bunch of recipes. And we still make the bar. I have the barbecue chicken pizza two nights ago at our house.

[B]

Who has the butter cake recipe? Do they? Do they offer that?

[C]

Oh, good question. We have. We can find it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What's the butter cake? Wait, what?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that from cpk?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So good.

[B]

So good. I get it every year on my birthday and Mother's Day. Wow. And sometimes when it's just a Tuesday.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[D]

And you might get it later today maybe. Now that we're talking about it, can.

[A]

I just tell you, I really love that you guys like California Pizza Kitchen. Oh, I.

[B]

It's one of my favorite restaurants.

[C]

It's incredible.

[E]

It's literally.

[D]

I could do without it.

[C]

Me too.

[D]

Yeah. Barbecue chicken and pizza not right. Sure.

[B]

Don't eat that.

[C]

That. Don't.

[B]

Don't get that.

[C]

Then pineapple on your pizza. You got me. So don't even start talking to me.

[B]

The Toada pizza is incredible.

[A]

The best.

[B]

The best thing ever. When they took that away for a.

[C]

While, used to make a BLT pizza, which was really, really came back.

[D]

These are not pizzas.

[B]

The Kung Pao spaghetti with shrimp.

[A]

Good hack.

[B]

Ask them.

[D]

This is like franken food.

[B]

This is.

[C]

They make great salads too. Salad?

[B]

Yeah, the barbecue chicken salad with no tomatoes. Add avocado.

[A]

Oh my God. I'm. Extra tomatoes.

[B]

Ugh. I can do without tomatoes. No, take them away. I'll give you mine.

[C]

Yeah, there's easy parking and good food. So Ryder's not interested.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Welcome back to POD meets cpk.

[A]

I like. I hate that I live in New York now and there's no California Pizza Kitchen here. And I did an ad campaign for them last year. Cause they turned 40 last year, which is crazy.

[C]

Can you gold belly it?

[A]

Oh, that's a good question. Well, I mean, I can buy it in the freezer section, so.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, that's true.

[A]

But I was trying to convince them to do a pop up.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

In New York. And they were like, I mean, we're. I think we're okay. I was like, okay, we're good.

[B]

We're good on that. Thanks.

[E]

We're not gonna go to a market.

[B]

Where nobody knows who we are.

[A]

That's not a.

[B]

That's not a great idea. Did you know how good Freaks and Geeks was while you were making it?

[A]

Yes, I think we did. I'm not in the pilot. Not during the pilot. I had no. Cause I was also just like, I have no idea what's happening.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know what I mean? But I think once we started, once I saw the pilot, I was like, oh, wow. Like, this is a thing. Like, this is real. And.

Not only that, like, really good, right?

Cause I think tonally, I sort of just didn't even understand what it was. I mean, talk about it was ahead of its time, right?

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So I think it was really hard, even for me. But I was a huge My so Called Life fan, and so it, like, sort of reminded me of that, but funnier. And anyway, yeah, I think once we started filming the series, we all had this understanding that what we were doing was really great. And, you know, then also, like I said, my college boyfriend Colin Hinx was on Roswell, and they were filming basically. Well, they were filming at Paramount, across the street from. We were at Raleigh Studios in Hollywood. So it was kind of like perfect fun. And there were, you know, like, all those kids and our cast would hang out and it was just really great.

[B]

Well, it's definitely become one of the seminal shows of its generation.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

But it's an infamous first season cancellation. Winning an Emmy once it was already off the air, but sparked the careers of not only you, Seth Rogen, Jason Sears, John Francis Daly, Martin Starr, it's a stacked launching pad.

[A]

But Linda. Yeah.

[B]

At the time that it then didn't take off, was that absolutely devastating?

[A]

Yes. Yeah, it was crazy. And I just felt like, well, now what?

[C]

Right, right.

[B]

You're like, that was incredible. How did that not go?

[C]

You can only go downhill from there, is what you think when you leave. Like, what do I do now?

[A]

But I think that's right. I mean, I think that's right. Like, we. I really was. Was so my world was rocked.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

But within the industry, it was beloved. Right. I mean, like, everyone knew that it was a good show with a stacked cast. You didn't feel that. You didn't eventually feel.

[A]

Yes, but that didn't happen for years.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Like, this was 1999.

[C]

It does have a special place in Hollywood where it's. It's one of those shows like. Like Leslie Nielsen's original Police Squad, where it's. It was so ahead of its time that you do six, eight, ten episodes, and then people find it. It years later and they go what the hell? How is this not the biggest thing on tv? And so, yeah, there's. There's four or five shows in history of television.

[D]

I feel like I knew about it back then. Like, I feel like it was when it was happening, there was conversation. When was Linda on our show in relation to doing Freaks? It was after, right?

[A]

Before was before. Yeah, because that was. It was a big deal at LMU that she was on. I totally forgot about this. Like, we all watched it. This is a huge deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so she did Freaks and Geeks after. Wow.

[C]

So that.

[D]

So you guys were doing 98, 99 then where you were.

[A]

It was. It was.

99 pilot season, and then it was 99. 2000. Canceling 2000. We did 19 episodes.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

So she had already broken up Cory and Topanga by that point.

[A]

Yeah, she was already the villain.

[B]

She was already a villain. Yeah. It, by the way, won an Emmy for outstanding casting for a comedy series.

[D]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Alison John. There you go.

[D]

She's a legend, man.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, Allison Jones, incredible.

[D]

I mean, she cast the original pilot for Boy Meets World, too, so.

[A]

She did.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. Which means she only. She cast me in this call. I'm the only one.

[C]

But.

[D]

But yeah, because she. She did the pilot, and then I don't. I mean, I don't even really remember meeting her, but that's who I auditioned for the first time. And then. Yeah, so she put the original pilot together of Boy Meets World, and then we recast and then, you know, changed as we went. But yeah. Yeah, she's amazing.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Look at you. Look at her work, and you're like, oh, she, like, literally found so many people before they were anybody, and she always goes for the interesting choice and the good actor. It's. Yeah, she's amazing.

[A]

Yeah, it's very. She's very cool.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Well, that was the other thing about Freaks and Geeks at the time is we're. We're in the late 90s, early aughts at this point. So you're still in beautiful teenage shows. It was all gorgeous people standing there and Freaks and Geeks, as you know, obviously, Linda's beautiful, busy, beautiful, but they came off as real. Right. It was like they were casting for real people as opposed to just. It's soap opera actors, but that can hit their marks for a sitcom. It was. Freaks and Geeks was like, can we cast some real people that can act and are funny and amazing and you want to watch? And that was. That kind of started a whole new trend in television in the early aughts, it, it got away from, from being like, who's. Who's the best looking guy and girl we can put on this show.

[A]

It was like, who's.

[C]

Who's the. Who's the best part?

[A]

Well, I think it's also was like that era of teen shows. It was like right when Dawson's Creek had come out.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

You know, it was like a year and a half, a year or two after that. So it was like Felicity and Dawson's Creek and the WB was really like having its moment. Right. And they were casting the most beautiful people objectively. And not for nothing, I actually.

I think that in that world, like, I didn't. I wasn't that. I did not. I wasn't hot like that. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't a hot teen. I'm actually like a super hot 40 woman in her 40s.

But like, I really wasn't a hot. I wasn't hot as a teenager. I was like weird and a little, I don't know. And I wasn't like, that era was very specific of what the beauty was. Do you know what I'm saying? And I just did not. I didn't really fit into it. I remember reading a review of Freaks and Geeks that was like, you won't find any beautiful people here. And I was a little bit like.

[B]

Well, I mean, okay, I mean, that's harsh.

[A]

That's all right.

[C]

I was like.

[A]

But yeah.

Hey, it's Will Friedle and Sabrina Bryant.

[C]

From the podcast Magical Rewind. And we have a very special guest on this week's episode. He's the mastermind behind some of your favorite movies like Hocus Pocus, Newsies, the Descendants, and of course, High School Musical. Yes, it is the one and only a living legend, director Kenny Ortega.

[B]

We sit down with Kenny to talk about his incredible career and the legacy he's created with his chore and films.

[C]

You seriously will not want to miss this one.

[B]

Listen to Magical rewind on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You've heard us talk about using Legacy Box before, but this is the moment for you to join us in the quest to save your memories. Their Cyber Week event is here and it is absolutely their best sale of the year. Take it from me, Legacy Box is the most meaningful gift you can give for the holidays. It's not just about digitizing old tapes and photos. It's about getting to see those forgotten moments and, and hear voices you haven't heard in years all over again. And right now, you can preserve everything for as low as just $27. Whether it's camcorder tapes filled with your awkward eras or photos with that one boyfriend from high school that got away, it's time to finally deal with that box of media collecting dust in the garage. Legacy Box makes it so easy. You just fill the box with your VHS tapes, film reels, pictures, whatever you've got, and their team digitizes everything by hand right here in the US Then you get your originals back, plus digital copies on the cloud or a thumb drive, which means those memories are finally safe from, you know, floods, mold, or the passage of time. In general, they've helped over a million families relive their moments. So what are you waiting for?

[F]

Hurry.

[B]

Legacy Box's best sale of the year won't last long. Visit legacybox.com meetsworld for an unreal 65% off off during the Legacy Box Cyber Week event. With limited quantities ready to ship, this deal will go fast. Shop Legacy Box's lowest prices of the year now at legacybox.com/world Buy your Legacy Box today. Send in when you're ready. Legacybox.com meets World Moms Juggle a million things during the holidays and CVS is here for all of it. This holiday season I'm juggling never ending parties, gifts for my family and friends, traveling with a four and a six year old, and so much more. But CVS is my one stop shop. It's close, quick and easy, perfect for moms who need to check things off their list without any extra stress. My kids are doing a secret Santa at school this year and CVS made it easy with a selection of small toys and games under $15. They also have unlimited options of pre wrapped gifts, gift sets, holiday cards and stocking stuffers. Plus CVS is introducing joyword, their new brand which includes trendy, cute, cute and colorful holiday staples like nutcrackers, snow globes and more. Perfect to add to your festive decor. Trust me. Visit cvs.comholiday or your local CVS for everything you need this holiday season.

[F]

I don't know about you guys, but I love to buy gifts. I love it so much. I love it so much more than getting gifts. But the one thing that I do love, especially when it comes to my daughter, is getting matching things. I know it's such a cliche, but I love it so much. So I have the perfect brand for you. Pandora Jewelry can make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry a gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member, say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[E]

And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[C]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[E]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[C]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[A]

Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings.

[C]

Very underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance company and affiliates.

[D]

Excludes Massachusetts from nursing and healthcare to business. And it Rasmussen has a range of programs to fit your goals and passions.

[C]

No matter what your day to day looks like. Rasmussen's programs allow you to balance school with life while you pursue your degree.

[B]

So if you're ready to pursue your education goals, Rasmussen is ready to help you take that next step.

[D]

Head on over to Rasmussen Edu and check out the opportunities waiting for you.

[C]

Your future is a bright one. Rasmussen University can help you get there.

[B]

Well, soon after Freaks and Geeks, you find yourself cast on another show every young actor wished they were on, including all of us on the Zoom and the that's Dawson's Creek. Before you joined the cast in season five, had you been watching it like everyone else?

[A]

No, no, I missed. Wasn't me. It wasn't for me. I still have never watched it.

[B]

Oh, that's so funny. You've never seen anything you've been in.

[A]

I know. I mean, that's not necessarily true. I definitely have watched things I've been in, but like, yeah, I just wasn't. I wasn't. There were people in my college, like freshman year, who definitely watched Dawson's every week, 100%. I did watch Felicity. I was a Felicity girl.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I loved that show and then became friends with Scott Speedman years later. And it always cracks me up. It still cracks me up. He's like, I just love him.

But yeah, like, I don't know. What else did I watch? I don't know what I was watching.

[B]

Well, sometimes joining a cast and season five can be a little daunting. Everybody's already super close and everyone has their own way of doing things. Did you Feel welcome right off the bat in that cast on that set.

[A]

Yeah. No, I mean, I think it's like very. I think being a guest star on any long running show, coming in for one episode is like the scariest thing.

I was added to the cast. I had to test. I had to do like a full studio network test for it.

And they were adding me and they. I think they tested Chad Michael Murray for. He was sort of recurring that year. I don't know.

It was. Yeah, it was like intimidating also because it wasn't being filmed in la. It was in Wilmington, North Carolina. So I basically had to like relocate right to.

[B]

To a place you're not familiar with at all.

[A]

And I didn't know where to live. And like it was. Yeah, it was hard. And I was 21. Like it was very. It was tricky.

And it was less that like they were all so close at that point. They were all just like, this was the job and they all had their own lives, you know, that were established, like really well established. But Michelle and I met.

The first person I met when I got to town. Everybody was put up in the same small little boutique hotel in Wilmington. It was called literally the Wilmintonian.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh my gosh.

[A]

I love that. I know. I don't know if it still is, but that's what it was. And James Van Der Beek was staying there because he like something had happened with his house or he was something. I don't know, I don't remember what happened, but like some construction or something and he couldn't move in yet. And so I met him first and he was so nice and he was like, I've heard the best things about you. I heard your audition was incredible. Like he was so nice. So nice. And then Michelle was across the street at this little like stop and go place picking up like Gatorade and Fig Newtons and she walked across the street. Well, I love Fig Newtons. We used. Michelle and I still joke that like we thought that Fig Newtons were health food.

[B]

Right? Yeah.

[A]

I know. Cookies. They're cookies.

[B]

They're absolutely a dessert.

[C]

No, they're not.

[A]

I thought it was like, like an energy bar.

[C]

It is.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And the more you eat, the healthier they get. Great. That's the thing that people don't know about Fig Newtons. Fig is in the title.

[A]

That's right. I could eat a whole sleeve.

[C]

Exactly. It's Figs and Isaac.

[D]

Fig Newtons on pizza is amazing. I don't know if you guys have tried that at cpk. It's really. You know what?

[C]

Again, this.

[D]

Do they add cream cheese? Cream cheese and Fig Newtons. Pineapple guy.

[C]

You. You don't get to throw shade at other people's pizza.

[A]

I 100% agree. 100% agree. That's like a. I definitely agree. But, yeah. And so then she and I met, and then, like, sort of instantly fell in love. And we had had mutual friends tell us that we would get along, so we were already sort of set up to be friends. Like each other. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Well, you all recently reunited recently on Broadway to raise money for the f. Cancer charity in James Van Der Beek's name. Did anything surprise you about jumping back into your character almost 25 years later?

[A]

Well, I didn't play my character because I wasn't. Because we did a staged reading of the pilot.

And so, like, Kerr Smith and Meredith Monroe and myself. And I'm trying to think if there was anyone else. We weren't in the pilot.

And all had been added to the cast at various points after. So Michelle and I, you know, when James was diagnosed with cancer, it was really, you know, it was horrible. And he's got this beautiful family, and, you know, we all reached out to him and Michelle. Michelle and Katie and I, like, sent them some stuff like this. You know, I think it was like a year ago or something. And then. And right after the new year, Michelle was just like, we should do something. We just should do something. And so she and I started to think about, like, well, what would a live show be? And what could we even do? And, you know, I do so many, like, live stage shows of things that, like, I used to do them at Largo all the time in LA and the Bell House here in New York. And I took my podcast out. I'm like, we can do something on a stage. Her husband, Thomas Kail. Tommy Kail, is the director of Hamilton. So we knew that that theater would probably be open to helping us out. The Richard Rogers, they were so lovely. And so we started to put this thing together. We called Katie and she came over, and we, like, we're like, what if we did the pilot? We should read the pilot. We could do a staged reading or we could do, like, a Night of Song. Like, we. We're just trying to, like, figure out something.

[D]

Dawson's Creek review.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But, like, getting everyone. It was just so important that.

Everyone be there, and getting everyone's schedules lined up was a little tricky.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And then James got very sick and was in the hospital and couldn't make the trip to come be on stage and do it with us. And that was really, really hard and.

And sad. But his family came, all of his kids came. Kimberly, his wife came, and.

We got to spend a lot of time with them. And it was just sort of incredible for us all to be back in the same room together. We haven't done that since the show wrapped, so it's been, whatever, 20. 20 years.

[B]

Yeah, 25 years.

[A]

Almost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, wow. Okay, great.

[B]

Almost 25.

[A]

I believe you.

[B]

Hi, it's Jenny Garth, host of the I Choose Me podcast. This week, I'm so excited to welcome.

[F]

My friend Gabrielle Carteris, the Andrea Zuckerman from Beverly Hills 90210 to the pod. We're choosing to get real.

[A]

I lied to the networks about my age and contracts. They never would have hired me if they had known my age.

[F]

We're choosing to be honest. She looked at me and she said, this business is about ass, which you have neither of.

[B]

And we're choosing to get nostalgic. Listen to I Choose me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You've heard us talk about using Legacy Box before, but this is the moment for you to join us in the quest to save your memories. Their Cyber Week event is here, and it is absolutely their best sale of the year. Year. Take it from me, Legacy Box is the most meaningful gift you can give for the holidays. It's not just about digitizing old tapes and photos. It's about getting to see those forgotten moments and hear voices you haven't heard in years all over again. And right now, you can preserve everything for as low as just $27. Whether it's camcorder tapes filled with your awkward eras or photos with that one boyfriend from high school that got away, it's time to finally deal with that box of media collecting dust in the garage. Legacy Box makes it so easy. You just fill the box with your VHS tapes, film reels, pictures, whatever you've got, and their team digitizes everything by hand right here in the US Then you get your originals back, plus digital copies on the cloud or a thumb drive, which means those memories are finally safe from, you know, floods, mold, or the passage of time. In general, they've helped over a million families relive their moments. Moments. So what are you waiting for? Hurry. Legacy Box's best sale of the year won't last long. Visit legacybox.com meets world for an unreal 65% off during the Legacy Box Cyber Week event with limited quantities ready to ship. This deal will go fast. Shop Legacy Box's lowest prices of the year now at legacybox.com/world Buy your Legacy Box today. Send in when you're ready. Legacybox.com meets World Moms Juggle a million things during the holidays and CVS is here for all of it. This holiday season I'm juggling never ending parties, gifts for my family and friends, traveling with a four and a six year old, and so much more. But CVS is my one stop shop. It's close, quick and easy, perfect for moms who need to check things off their list without any extra stress. My kids are doing a Secret Santa at school this year and CVS made it easy with a selection of small toys and games under $15. They also have unlimited options of pre wrapped gifts, gift sets, holiday cards and stocking stuffers. Plus CVS is introducing Joyward, their new brand which includes trendy, cute and colorful holiday staples like nutcrackers, snow globes and more. Perfect to add to your festive decor. Trust me. Visit cvs.comholiday or your local CVS for everything you need this holiday season.

[F]

I don't know about you guys, but I love to buy gifts. I love it so much. I love it so much more than getting gifts. But the one thing that I do love, especially when it comes to my daughter, is getting matching things. I know it's such a cliche, but I love it so much. So I have the perfect brand for you. Pandora Jewelry can make their holiday unforgettable with the gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle, but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member. Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora.

[E]

Store, Limu Gamu.

Here we have the Limu Imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu.

[C]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[E]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[C]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

[D]

From nursing and healthcare to business and it Rasmussen has a range of programs to fit your goals and Passions.

[C]

No matter what your day to day looks like, Rasmussen's programs allow you to balance school with life while you pursue your degree.

[B]

So if you're ready to pursue your education goals, Rasmussen is ready to help you take that next step.

[D]

Head on over to Rasmussen Edu and check out the opportunities waiting for you.

[C]

Your future is a bright one. Rasmussen University can help you get there.

[B]

People always ask us about that final episode of Boy Meets World where we were crying in real life, and it's right there on the screen as our characters. And the final Dawson's Creek episode is also an emotional ride. What was it like that day on set saying goodbye to a show that basically raised almost an entire cast?

[A]

Well, it's crazy because I wasn't in the two part. No, I wasn't in the two part finale. Even though I had been on the show for those two years leading up to it. Kevin Williamson came back to write the finale. And, I mean, I got paid for it, guys, right? But what I heard at the time was Kevin was like, I don't know, this character. I didn't create her, so she's not gonna be in the finale. And I was. I mean, I wrote about it in my book. I was, like, pretty devastated. Like, I was pretty sad. And I left. I just left. I left Wilmington. I was like, well, you guys, bye.

[D]

Yeah, peace out.

[A]

And so I wasn't there. Wow. And then I did have to go back for the, like, big. They had, like, this big finale party and, like, photo shoot and this whole thing. And like, they were like, you've actually. Contractually, you gotta go back for it. And I was like, okay, I guess. So I did go back for, like, the finale party.

But, yeah, like, I just wasn't. I wasn't around. And then the craziest thing happened. I haven't, like. I'm not gonna say I, like, held onto it, but it was a thing that really hurt my feelings. And I felt like I had given.

Two seasons of my life to this show. People really loved my character. I really, you know, gave up, like, a big part of my life to be in Wilmington. Not that, like, you know, obviously I needed the job, but.

Yeah, I just was sad for my character too. I'm like, she just gets relegated to, like, one weird lineup.

[B]

Why do you feel not valued and like, 100%. Yeah.

[A]

Right. And when we were doing this reading, which I got to play.

[B]

This is so wild.

[A]

But also just speaks to the time. I don't know if you guys had any storylines in Boy Meets World where like now you're like, oh, my God, that is not cool. Like, like Pacey loses his virginity to his 40 year old teacher on Dawson's Creek.

[B]

It's a very common thing. We just talked about this. Yeah, it's very common for shows of that time that everyone was making out, hooking up with, with people significantly older than them.

[C]

Well, Sean hitting on the teacher. That happened several times.

[B]

And Sean's supposed to be like counselor hitting on Sean.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's so wild.

So in the play Reading, I played that teacher. Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Tamara. Anyway, it was sort of the part I was like, born to play, if I'm being honest. Like, I really, it was really funny. But Kevin Williamson, like, as soon as we had a day of rehearsal and then we had like a half day and then we did the, the show that night and as soon as I walked in, said hi to everybody, Kevin Williamson, who I've seen over the years, by the way. I mean, it's been 25 years. Kevin was like, busy. Can I talk to you for a second? And he took me aside and was like, I have to say something that I've really been thinking about. I've thought about it a lot for years. I never reached out to you. I want to apologize for not putting you in the finale. I don't know if, you know, like, he was just like, I was just in a moment in my career, in my life when, like, I had so many things going on. They had like, asked me at the very last minute to come back and write the finale. I had like a day and a half to do it and I just made this kind of weird decision and I could have done better and I didn't. And I'm sorry.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

And I was so nice.

[B]

I started crying.

[A]

I literally started crying. And I was like, I. Kevin, like, that means so much to me. Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it. And yeah, great, great. Let's do this thing, you know.

[B]

Wow. That's been so rewarding to like, something that's just always been in the back of your mind. Like you said, you're not going to say you were like carrying it around. It wasn't like in the forefront. You're shooting daggers every time you hear his name or whatever, but it's somewhere in the back of your mind that you're like, man, that ended on a, on a note that made me feel like two years of my life wasn't valued. And then to actually get an apology, like, that is so nice.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And rare.

[A]

And rare. But also, I think really speaks to, you know, obviously, like, he's a person who is self reflective and has, you know, and had a moment where he was like, oh, wait, that wasn't maybe the kindest thing. Maybe I should take ownership of that in a real way instead of just like being nice to me every time he sees me, you know, which is like, I think what most people do, right. They're like. Like, don't want to have to closure too.

[C]

I mean, that you need. We had that on our show. I mean, Trina came on our podcast and somebody had told. Because Trina wasn't in our last episode. And somebody had told Trina that we as a cast went to our producer and said we didn't want her in the episode, which is completely untrue. And so she had been holding onto that for 25, and rightfully so. And so when we talked about it, we were like, wait, wait, what? What?

[B]

Yeah, we didn't even know that.

[C]

We had no idea that this had. That she had been told this. And so, yeah, I mean, it was. It had bothered her for decades and. And again, rightfully so. It made her feel less than. And it was nice to us to sit down and be like, we had no idea this is the first we're.

[B]

Even hearing that you had. Yeah.

[C]

So it was.

[A]

Why did somebody tell that. Say that to her?

[B]

I mean, I can deflect.

[D]

Deflect blame for her decisions, right? That's.

[C]

Yeah, that's the correct answer.

[D]

But imagine. Imagine if we did have that kind of power. I know at that time we were so, like clueless actors. Like, okay, what are we doing next week? But if we had banded together and been like, let's get rid of another cast member. No weird thing to band together.

[C]

Like, we wouldn't band together to get money. We band together to get. Have one cast member, not in one episode.

[D]

Like, it's.

[B]

Yeah, it's.

[A]

No, that's ridiculous. It doesn't even make sense logically.

[B]

No, it doesn't. But at the time. Of course, another thing we've talked about so much is at the time, they are relying on the idea that we are not communicating with each other about things that it's going to feel. Yeah. That the actors are not. That she wasn't going to come to us and say, why would you guys do this to me? And. And she didn't. Because he. And he. And the person who told her that knew she would probably not do that.

[A]

Right.

[D]

Because it played right into her actor insecurity, which we all have. And, like, that's the problem with being an actor, is that you feel disposable and you feel like, you know, you're being asked to be a human being on camera and to bring all this authenticity and emotion, but it feels like it's just, do you fit into the schedule? Can we pay you enough? You know, and it's like, it all diminishes your sense of self to, you know, you're just like, I'm just a pawn and somebody in, you know, Kevin Williamson script. Like, I'm just like, whatever. And, of course, what starts to happen is you start thinking that the people in charge never care about you, don't care about your feelings, even when, you know, they have their own stuff going on and they, you know, who knows what the real situation is? But, yeah. Yeah, it's a. It's a machine.

[A]

And I think because I had come from this experience on Freaks and Geeks where we really did feel valued and like.

And that, you know, I think that one of the reasons why almost everyone from that show has gone on to be multi hyphenates and do all kinds of different things, myself included, is because Judd and Paul and Jake Kasdan, who was our, like, directing, producer. Producer, director.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There you go. Thank you.

Really instilled in us, like, even though you guys are, you know, I feel like Seth was 16, I think, or 17 when we started the show. Martin Starr was, like, 14 or 15. Even though you guys are, like, technically teenagers, your ideas are valuable, you're talented, and we want to know what you think. Think about what we're bringing to you. They were always asking us, what do you think? Is this feel right? Is this, like, a thing that you would. Like, a teenager would say? Anyway, I just, you know, feel like going from that experience and then feeling like, oh, it really was not. I don't really feel valued at all in this. In this show, but it really gave me, you know, I don't know, a roadmap for kind of how I would want to be treated on set and then also what I am gonna look for in collaborators and partners.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

Yeah.

[C]

You have so many iconic shows on your resume. If you could go back and do one episode of any one of the shows again, which one would you pick?

[A]

Well, this is really. It's girls 5eva, for sure. Because I just love the show so much, and I know it sort of just ended, but I really miss it, and I just feel like that feels so funny. I just think that's gonna be another One where people are gonna find it and then in like two years are gonna be.

[B]

And say it was ahead of time.

[A]

As to why there's not more of them. I just loved that show so much, and I love doing it. We had the best time.

[B]

Are there any movies or TV shows that you got close on that still haunt you? You.

[A]

Nothing haunts me.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

Healthy.

[C]

Except Kevin Williamson for a while.

[A]

No, Yeah, I know, right? But not anymore. That. That we closed the loop. Loop has been closed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But what are some things that I tested for that I didn't get?

There was a TV show that I tested for, but then I got Dawson's Creek. See, this is why I'm like, nothing haunts me, like. Like it always is fine. Like, you know, we've all been. We've all been doing this long enough. You know what I mean? Like, it really is true that your career is your career. And so not getting jobs while in the moment like that. Rejection can be devastating, especially if you get really close on something.

Ultimately, I have just found that it. It has always worked in my favor. Even the fact that, like, at the time I was doing the movie White Chicks and couldn't audition for. And White Chicks was pushing their production. Like, we kept. We pushed so, like, we were going longer than we were supposed to be going. So I couldn't audition for Mean Girls, the movie. And I was like, like devastated because I really wanted to be in that movie, obviously. And guys, guess who was in the Mean Girls movie.

[C]

But you know what I mean?

[A]

Like, I couldn't have been the mom in the new Mean Girls movie. You know what I mean? Like, I still. It's just like, everything works out. Everything works out. And White Chicks is like the most iconic movie that I've ever done.

[B]

So I was gonna ask you, with everything you've done, how many people come up to you and want to talk about White. White Chicks?

[A]

I mean, it's everyone, no joke. At least. At least five times a week. I'm not even. Not. Not an exaggeration. Someone will say something to me about white chicks five times a week. Like, it's crazy. And everywhere in the world, that's like so cool. It's. It's actually just like, okay. I mean, wow. Had no idea at the time, but I love. That's really funny.

[B]

You also currently host busy this week on qvc. I do a place. I pop up with my own hair care product. I love qvc. I'm there many times a year. Tell our listeners a little bit about your show.

[A]

Oh, well, so, you know, I had a late night talk show on E. For a year in 2018-2019. And when it got canceled, I was really bummed. Cause we had a great time and I just loved doing a late night talk show. And I have long felt the inequality of not having women be the hosts of these shows or given, you know, longer than whatever, a year to find an audience. And so Casey St. Ange, my producing partner on that show, and I really were trying to figure out, like, how do we do another one? Where are we gonna go? And we were kind of building to something. And then the pandemic happened. And so we pivoted and we did our podcast for over five years. And then at a certain point, QVC had come to me to do a little like, holiday special thing for them. And in that process, Casey. I asked Casey to come do it with me. And in that process, we learned that they were gonna launch their own streaming network. And they were looking for. They didn't really know what they were looking for, but they were thinking they were gonna have more original content and not just 24 hour shopping content, that it would be different. So we were like, well, why don't we just do my talk show there? Let's just do the talk show there. And they went for it. And this is. We've done two seasons. We've had a great time. It's a talk show, you know, we have incredible guests. Rosie o' Donnell was amazing. You gotta come be on it.

[B]

I would love to. Please.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

You instantly thought she was talking about you.

[B]

I'm also on qvc, which is it? But she missed it.

[C]

She was clearly speaking to me. And you instantly.

[B]

I will tell you, I don't think you guys speak to the QVC audience.

[A]

I mean, wow.

[F]

Not know that. Not.

[A]

No. We don't know.

[C]

Not.

[B]

No. Sure. Not.

[A]

No.

[C]

Wow. First of all, I can speak to any audience. Thank you very much.

[A]

I. I think that's.

[B]

He's not wrong.

[A]

Right? I think that's right. I think that's right.

[B]

Yeah. He's not wrong.

[A]

That feels right to me. I don't know if it is, but it feels.

[B]

It feels right. It feels good. Yeah. Hearing him say that feels good.

[C]

Writer's just quiet. He's like, I'm not.

[B]

I would never want to be on.

[D]

Any talk show ever. And QVC audience don't understand. So I. Yeah, probably not.

[A]

Probably not the place for me. Why don't you like to be on talk shows?

[D]

I'm really bad at on camera being Myself, Like, I'm just a horrible famous person. Like, I just don't.

[A]

But you're on camera right now being yourself.

[D]

Yeah, but it's audio mostly.

[C]

30 second clips.

[D]

Yeah, I'm in my house. It's fine. No, I. I just, I'm not.

[A]

I'm.

[D]

I don't. I'm. I don't do well in those situations. I always look like I'm being held hostage.

[C]

I'll be like, ladies and gentlemen, you only got 30 minutes left to buy Rider Strong. I can't even believe he's not as good as he is.

[B]

He's not a quippy person.

[C]

I agree.

[D]

I don't work in sound bites. Well, correct.

[B]

And even the idea of like the pre show interview or like trying to. What's your. What's the quick funny story you're gonna tell? Like, that pressure on. It's like, oh, God, no. He just. Right from the beginning, there's a lot of anxiety and he's just like, I. I don't need that.

[D]

Nope.

[A]

I kind of. I understand that.

[C]

No, I want to see it. I want to see Ryder on every talk show.

[D]

I get uncomfortable just watching talk shows. Like, I can't handle.

[C]

I'm the same way.

[D]

I don't watch interviews and talk shows.

[C]

That's I.

[D]

Why I know nothing about famous people, even people. I really love their work. I don't know anything about their personal life because the second I'm watching an interview, I'm like, oh, God, go get.

[C]

Away the same way.

[D]

Like, I just. Not my. Not my style.

[C]

No.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I think there's something to that. And I think it also speaks to. When you watch men who are comedians interview people, that is actually, like, there is a lot of pressure because what you see is them searching for their joke.

[D]

Right, Right.

[A]

And they're not actually listen.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And I'm sorry, I wasn't listening. What were you saying?

[A]

Well, but I really, I really. In my experience, why I wanted to do a talk show was first of all because I was sick of the fact that there were no women that had them. But also. And specifically late night, because there was this whole, you know, like, deeply rooted in the misogyny and the patriarchy that, like, women can only have daytime talk shows because that's when women are home doing the laundry. No. Like, you know, from back in the day. And like, men go to their jobs and then they need to relax with their scotch and watch on the menu.

[B]

They don't want to watch women. Yeah.

[A]

Not a woman.

[B]

No, we don't Want to hear a woman talk at night.

[A]

But I always love.

[D]

So disturbing.

[A]

It's so disturbing.

[D]

It's true. I know.

[A]

It is literally what it was, what it was based. What it's been based in. And it has to be.

[C]

Joan Rivers had to fight. I mean, Joan Rivers was the top comedian of the day and she had.

[A]

To fight and fight and fight and never got it.

[C]

And never got it. She was, she could guest and that was it.

[B]

Chelsea Handler guessed the closest. With Chelsea lately.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean Chelsea had years and she had such an amazing run and then, but then you look at it and you're like, that's one.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That's one woman.

[C]

There's somebody else had one last, last one last year and they just cancel a comedian. She's so funny. I can't think of her name.

[A]

Well, Amber Ruffin had like that late night talk show thing after. You're thinking of Taylor. Yes, Mont.

[B]

Taylor Tomlinson. Yeah. At midnight.

[A]

Taylor Tomlinson. But at midnight's a game show.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

So it's also like she's super funny too.

[A]

She's the best. She's so funny. But it also is a game show, not actually a late night talk show.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Anyway, my point being, Ryder, my favorite guest, part of the reason why I wanted to do it is because I fully feel you on that. And like my favorite guest from the E. Talk show was Dan Ratcliffe because he showed up and he was, was literally like you. He was like, this isn't for me. I'm not like, I don't like this. Da da da da. We had at the end of it, like we. He like didn't want to leave. It was, it was like actually amazing to see the transition. Cuz I just was like, I'll just talk to you about like my life.

[C]

What?

[A]

You didn't.

[D]

Right.

[C]

Does he really have magic powers?

[A]

He was really wonderful.

[C]

See?

[B]

Magical magic.

[A]

And he's super talented.

[C]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[B]

Very busy. My last question for you is if you could go back in time and tell young Busy Phillips on the Freaks and Geeks set just one thing. What would you tell her?

[A]

My God, this is the second time someone has like asked me this question this week and I have no answer. And you would think since I've already been asked it that I would have come up with something. But the truth is, I don't know if you guys feel this way. I just am sort of like, first of all, there was nothing that I could ever tell that girl. Do you know what I Mean, she.

[D]

Wouldn'T have listened anyway.

[B]

I would have listened.

[A]

Not even a little bit. Would she have listened? She would have been like, okay, old lady, fine. And I love that part.

[D]

Is that you at 19? That's your voice?

[F]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's like what my voice is for. My 19 year old self is as well. Yeah, well.

[A]

And now I have this 17 year old mini me that is.

[D]

Oh, God.

[A]

It's a real vibe, guys, watching her on camera, because I'm like, it is a little bit of a mind. I mean, honestly, like just crazy. But yeah, I kind of feel I've thought a lot about it and like, I don't think there's anything that I could tell her that would change anything or change her way of thinking. I mean, maybe get diagnosed with ADHD sooner.

I mean, honestly. Because I think I spent a lot of time feeling really terrible about my brain and then in my late 30s, was diagnosed with ADHD and I was like, oh, now it all makes sense.

[C]

Right?

[A]

So maybe that would have been it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, your brain is fine. You're not stupid. You're just. You have executive organizational functioning skills that you need to work on.

[B]

Right. So smart. Honestly, that is probably one of the things that would help you change your life.

[D]

And that's very practical.

[A]

That's probably, that's probably it. Anything else, I think I would have been like, yeah, I know it's gonna work out.

[B]

Whatever. I know everything. You know nothing. I don't know if you know this, But I am 18. I know everything. Yeah, that's. I totally get that. Busy. Thank you so much for being here.

[A]

Thank you. Thanks, Skye. Guys, I love the pod.

[D]

All right, have a good one.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

Thank you all for listening to this episode of Pod Meets World. As always, you can follow us on Instagram Pod Meets World show. You can send us your emails. Podmeetsworldshowmail.com and we've got Merch.

[C]

And to join our cult, please send all your emails to leaderdaniellecultmail.com merch.

[B]

Podmeetsworldshow.com will send us out.

[C]

We love you all. Pod Dismissed. Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fishel, Will Friedle and Rider Strong, executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman, executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor, Tara Sudbaksh, producer Matty Moore, engineer and Boy Meets World superfan Easton Allen. Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon and you can follow us on Instagram @podmeats worldshow or email us at podmeatsworldshowmail.com.

[E]

What a matchup we got y'.

[A]

All.

[E]

This is that classic HBCU vibe. Non stop action. The band is rocking and the crowd lit. Chance echo drum beat Everybody showing that school pride. Game like this. Yeah, it calls for an ice cold Coca Cola. Ah, crisp and refreshing. That's. That's a game changer right there.

[C]

Mmm.

[E]

Yeah, that taste always hits the right note. Just like the band at halftime. And just like that, we're back at it. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere and an ice cold Coca Cola. That's a winning combo no matter the sport, no matter the yard. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work. So grab a Coca Cola and keep that HBCU pride going.

[B]

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[A]

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