David Brownfield Meets World

Summary

Pod Meets World: "David Brownfield Meets World" Episode Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Pod Meets World
• Host/Authors: Danielle Fishel, Will Friedel, Ryder Strong
• Guest: David Brownfield, Writer, Producer, and Studio Executive
• Episode: David Brownfield Meets World
• Release Date: July 28, 2025
• Description: Danielle, Will, and Ryder revisit their favorite "Boy Meets World" episodes, sharing memories and insights. In this episode, they delve deeper into the show's production by interviewing David Brownfield, a key figure behind the scenes.

---

Introduction to David Brownfield

Timestamp: [15:11]

Danielle Fishel welcomes David Brownfield to the podcast, highlighting his extensive experience as a writer, producer, and network executive. David shares his journey into Hollywood, starting as a sports writer and transitioning into television.

Notable Quote:

Danielle Fishel: "What got you into Hollywood and into the TV business?"

David Brownfield: "I started out as a sports writer, producing the pregame show for the Lakers for five years... Then I connected with someone at Paramount's network TV division, which led me to ABC in 1993."

---

David's Role at ABC and "Boy Meets World"

Timestamp: [17:31]

David discusses his tenure at ABC from 1993 to 1997, where he oversaw multiple shows, including "Boy Meets World." He was not initially assigned to "Boy Meets World" but took over responsibilities after the original person handling the pilot left.

Notable Quote:

David Brownfield: "We realized the premise of 'Boy Meets World'—a kid living next door to his teacher—wasn't sustainable for 100 episodes. It required continuous development and adaptation."

---

Navigating Show Development and Executive Duties

Timestamp: [21:54]

David elaborates on his responsibilities as a network executive, which included overseeing script development, providing feedback, and making critical decisions to ensure a show's longevity. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing what works and pivoting away from ineffective elements.

Notable Quote:

David Brownfield: "My mantra was, 'I'm not asking you to agree with my notes. I'm asking you to understand them.' Clarity is crucial for writers."

---

Transition to Writing for "Boy Meets World"

Timestamp: [19:21]

After leaving ABC, David transitioned to writing, joining "Boy Meets World" during its fifth to seventh seasons. He describes the camaraderie and collaborative environment within the writers' room.

Notable Quote:

David Brownfield: "Joining as a writer, especially in season six, was a fantastic experience. The room was incredibly fun and respectful."

---

Insights into the Writers' Room Dynamics

Timestamp: [50:34]

Danielle reflects on the positive and dynamic environment of the "Boy Meets World" writers' room. She recounts specific moments and the diversity in the team, which contributed to the show's creative processes.

Notable Quote:

Danielle Fishel: "The writers' room was like a big family. We had a wide range of ages and backgrounds, which enriched our storytelling."

---

Career Advancement at CBS and Partnership with Dick Wolf

Timestamp: [80:26]

Post-"Boy Meets World," David advanced to high-level executive positions at CBS, overseeing major franchises like "CSI" and later joining Dick Wolf Entertainment. He discusses the differences between network television and Wolf's production environment.

Notable Quote:

David Brownfield: "Working with Dick Wolf was fascinating. The production environment was collegial, and I got to see the inner workings of powerhouse shows like 'Law & Order.'"

---

Evolution of the Television Industry and Sitcoms

Timestamp: [70:55]

David shares his perspectives on the decline of traditional sitcoms and the shift towards procedural dramas and streaming platforms. He attributes the changes to economic factors and evolving audience preferences.

Notable Quote:

David Brownfield: "The slow, painful death of the American sitcom is tied to the rise of reality TV and streaming services offering cheaper programming alternatives."

---

Legacy and Nostalgia of "Boy Meets World"

Timestamp: [96:00]

Reflecting on "Boy Meets World," David expresses surprise and delight at the show's enduring popularity. He believes the show's warmth and timeless themes resonate with audiences, ensuring its continued relevance.

Notable Quote:

David Brownfield: "There's a warmth to 'Boy Meets World' and a wish fulfillment of a world to live in that people haven't lost sight of. The nostalgia is irresistible."

---

Conclusion and Future Insights

Timestamp: [99:19]

The hosts wrap up the interview by thanking David for his invaluable insights. They highlight his dual perspective from both the executive and creative sides of the television industry, positioning him as a unique resource for aspiring showrunners.

Notable Quote:

Will Friedel: "We've got access to some of the greatest resources in all of television thanks to guests like you, David. Thank you so much for being here."

---

Episode Highlights:

• David Brownfield's Journey: From sports writer to network executive and then a key writer/producer on "Boy Meets World."
• Role of a Network Executive: Overseeing multiple shows, providing constructive feedback, and making pivotal decisions for show development.
• Writers' Room Dynamics: Collaborative and respectful environment fostering creativity and effective storytelling.
• Industry Evolution: Transition from traditional sitcoms to procedural dramas and the impact of streaming services.
• "Boy Meets World" Legacy: Enduring popularity driven by relatable themes and nostalgic appeal.

---

Key Takeaways:

• Adaptability in Television: Success in TV requires constant evolution and the ability to pivot when initial premises are unsustainable.
• Importance of Clear Communication: Effective feedback from executives can significantly enhance the quality of writing and production.
• Collaboration and Respect: A positive writers' room environment is crucial for fostering creativity and maintaining morale.
• Changing TV Landscape: The decline of multi-camera sitcoms is influenced by economic factors and shifting audience behaviors towards streaming.
• Enduring Impact: Well-crafted shows with universal themes, like "Boy Meets World," continue to resonate with audiences years after their original airing.

---

This episode offers an in-depth look into the inner workings of network television, the challenges of sustaining long-running shows, and the legacy of one of the 90s' beloved series. David Brownfield's experiences provide valuable lessons for both fans and aspiring television professionals.

Transcript

[Danielle Fishel]

This is an I Heart podcast.

[Will Friedel]

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[Ryder Strong]

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[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

This is exclusive to target Circle360 members and honestly, it's a lifesaver, Shipt is the first same day delivery marketplace to offer no markup pricing and $0 delivery.

[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

Order now at Shipt.com 360 that's S-H ipt.com 360 Terms apply every day has.

[Danielle Fishel]

A to do list.

[Ryder Strong]

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[Danielle Fishel]

The perfect mid morning refuel.

[Tara Sudbaksh]

Best part, they both taste great, so.

[Ryder Strong]

Make the most out of your morning with a bite of Velveeta. Pick up a pack of Velveeta at your local store.

[Danielle Fishel]

Today.

[David Brownfield]

I am thinking of joining the aarp.

[Will Friedel]

Wait, are you, are you old enough?

[David Brownfield]

You can join the AARP at 18.

[Danielle Fishel]

What?

[David Brownfield]

It just focuses on people over 50, which I'm not there yet. But if I can start getting the deals now. Oh man.

[Michael Jacobs]

See you become a grandpa and you just become a grandpa.

[Will Friedel]

What are some of the deals? What are some of the deals?

[David Brownfield]

I don't know them all perfectly. They're very loud.

[Will Friedel]

I want to turn it down.

[David Brownfield]

It's every year it's.

[Will Friedel]

No, no.

[David Brownfield]

See what I did there? I don't know all the ins and outs. I just know that I want to get into movies for like 70%. I want to start yelling at kids on the street. And I think I can do it, all of that, but I can do it for cheaper if I join the arp.

[Michael Jacobs]

Get off my lawn.

[David Brownfield]

I want to see if you'll both join with me.

[Will Friedel]

I need to know some better discounts. I'm not going to.

[Michael Jacobs]

I need to do the calculations because I feel like they're going to have. The annual fee is probably not going to. That's how, that's how they get you.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I'm gonna.

[David Brownfield]

You're already there.

[Michael Jacobs]

Oh yeah.

[David Brownfield]

Do you realize that the, the, the actual tagline of AARP is aarp. That's how they get you. So it's perfect for you.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Michael Jacobs]

No, that doesn't make sense. I, I joined AAA like a year ago and I was like, oh yeah. All the discounts, I was like, this is, this is good to have. But most like credit cards, I get scared. I'm like, it's just $15 a year.

[David Brownfield]

A Standard? Yeah. No, a standard membership costs $20 a year. However, you can get a discount rate of $15 for the first year if you sign up right now for five years for $75, you can sign up and you really can. Five years when you're. Yeah, any age.

[Danielle Fishel]

And then. And then what do you.

[Will Friedel]

What are some of the benefits? What do you get?

[David Brownfield]

Like, benefits of joining aarp? Let's find out.

[Michael Jacobs]

Isn't the point that you're supposed to be getting rewards because you're old? Like, it's.

[David Brownfield]

Oh, no, it's like, focuses on that. But checkup benefits. You get AARP rewards. You get discounts at wa.

[Danielle Fishel]

Walmart.

[David Brownfield]

You get discounts at the. Oh, you can book everything through the AARP Travel Center.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, do you get, like. What's the percentage off you get on rental cars, hotels, cruises?

[Michael Jacobs]

Oh, my God.

[David Brownfield]

Well, I don't have that right at my fingertips right now. But you get 65 to $200 off anything from British Airways.

[Will Friedel]

I mean, there's an AARP bookstore, writer.

[Michael Jacobs]

Oh, okay.

[David Brownfield]

Up to 35% off base rates from budget rent a car.

[Will Friedel]

35% off.

[David Brownfield]

Oh, 15% off of Denny's, 10% off of outback Steakhouse.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean.

[Michael Jacobs]

I mean, they really should become a sponsor of our show because we probably just increased their membership by a couple percentage points.

[Will Friedel]

I don't. I still don't believe that you can join, though, at 8.

[David Brownfield]

At 18, you can. It says you can. It says, how old do you have to be? Age and el. Ability to join while a while. AARP is dedicated to people over 50. There is no minimum age to join. People of all ages can get an AR membership for as low as $15 for the first.

[Michael Jacobs]

Kind of bums me out. That's like. You can join the Magic Castle. You don't have to be a magician, really.

[Will Friedel]

I know.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[David Brownfield]

But at the same time, there's an AARP magazine, and if I'm not on the COVID like this in the next.

[Will Friedel]

Six months, you have to be on the COVID for sure.

[David Brownfield]

Do you really?

[Will Friedel]

Oh, yeah. There's no way they'd feature under 50.

[David Brownfield]

You never know. Maybe they would. And the cool thing is, you know, 50, because it's people not looking at the camera. They don't know where to look now in the new camera. So it's like actually looking off to the thing.

[Will Friedel]

Right. Looking right to the side.

[Danielle Fishel]

But I'm joining.

[David Brownfield]

You should join with me.

[Will Friedel]

I'll join.

[David Brownfield]

It'll be great.

[Will Friedel]

Well, we can join the AARP tomorrow on our flight. Yes.

[David Brownfield]

Oh my God. If you can teach me how to work the WI fi on the plane, we can totally make that work.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Will Friedel]

Welcome to Pod Meets World. I'm Danielle Fishel.

[Michael Jacobs]

I'm Ryder Strong.

[David Brownfield]

And I'm Will Friedle, the newest member of the aarp.

[Will Friedel]

Hey everyone. Pod Meets World is coming to Salt Lake City, Utah. We will be there all August 22nd at the Lawson Capital Theater. Tickets are available at podmeetsworldshow.com Somebody told me the other day when I said we were going to Salt Lake City, they told me we had to check out a place called Swig. Have you guys heard of Swig?

[David Brownfield]

Oh, I have not.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, apparently it's. They've got a bunch of different like drink options. So anyway, we've got, we've got a fun activity for us. Not alcohol.

[Danielle Fishel]

I was gonna say.

[Michael Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Will Friedel]

Tara just said dirty soda. It's like flavored, different types of sod, but probably non caffeinated because you know.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah, you can't do that either. But I can tell you if I have a good night in Utah, I'm going to be giving somebody a dirty soda.

[Will Friedel]

Oh my God. Well can we not.

[David Brownfield]

Can we not use that?

[Will Friedel]

I'm sure we can. This is wonderful. We'll be in Salt Lake City everyone. Pod meets world August 22nd. Come here. We'll make more disgusting jokes.

[David Brownfield]

No weird. By the way, we have been to Salt Lake before for many a Comic con and the people there are incredible. So I know the turnout is going to be amazing. Come check out the show.

[Will Friedel]

Woohoo.

[Ryder Strong]

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[Will Friedel]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

Let's say it together.

[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

Ooh, that sounds nice.

[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

Summer is right around the corner and you know what that means.

[Michael Jacobs]

Barbecues.

[David Brownfield]

Sunny days by the pool with my shirt on.

[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

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[David Brownfield]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

Now, six and a half seasons into our rewatch, well into its home stretch, it would be difficult to find a Boy Meets World perspective we haven't tackled yet. Stage managers, co stars, producers, writers, background actors, the guy who sang the theme song. We have covered a lot of ground. What's left? An inmate from the audience, angel and Vicky Craig, the craft serviceman who played that Stevie Nicks song. Sure, I guess we still have a ways to go. But one point of view we were always dying to include was that of a network executive. And this week we are able to kill two birds with one stone. He started his career writing and producing on our show, Most visible during season six and seven when he wrote four episodes, including the recently recapped Hogs and Kisses. But how he began on Boy Meets World and the ABC network is a little bit of a mystery that we will hopefully get cleared up today. And after our little show, he'd complete a very rare evolution, going on to become one of the most important TV executives of the 2000s, helping craft the unstoppable CBS lineup as senior vice president, helping create shows that have dominated the ratings ever since. And if that wasn't enough, he'd then take his talents to a completely different hall of Fame TV franchise. Yeah, that's right. He'd work hand in hand with Dick Wolf at his production company, helping kill off unsuspecting victims, then investigate their deaths. I mean, not literally just on tv. Yeah, and so now not only do we get to hear about that writer's room during seasons six and seven, we also get some details about what being a network executive is actually like. They hold the future of your favorite show in their hands, yet we know very little about the process that decides these fates. Today, we Hope to learn a little bit more about it. So welcome to the podcast. A real twofer. Writer, producer, and studio executive, David Brownfield.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yay. There he is. Hey. I haven't even opened my mouth. That's quite welcome. All right.

[Will Friedel]

Great interview.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah. Well, now you ruined it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Thank you very much already.

[Will Friedel]

Thank you for being here. When your name appeared on our show, it brought back a wave of memories, albeit very many foggy ones. But we are so excited that you agreed to come on the podcast, so thank you. I know our. Our producers had to do a little deep diving to find you.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not. I'm not impossible to find, but I'm not. I don't make myself readily available either. So, you know.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, we had to do a little bit of digging anyway. So let's start with asking you what got you into. What got you to Hollywood and into the TV business. You are where you were a network executive, right?

[Danielle Fishel]

I'm born and raised in la.

[Will Friedel]

Okay.

[David Brownfield]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

I've been here all my life. I started out basically as a sports writer. I produced the pregame show for the Lakers for five years. So I really was not on the radar screen of doing anything in network television. I basically started out with the goal of someone paying me to watch sports, which my mom said, you're out of your mind. That's not going to happen. And I was able to do it. So I did that for five years, and I really liked it. It was an amazing job. But I kind of got tired of. Athletes are like actors. Professional athletes are like actors, with one huge exception. They don't have the years of rejection behind them that actors do. So they're incredibly coddled people. I mean, things have dramatically changed. But even so, at its core, an NBA player today is kind of similar to the way an NBA player was when I was with them. So I got tired of chasing him around. It was great. And then I just happened to be dating a woman at the time whose father was friends with the head of Paramount's network TV division. And he said, they are looking to bring someone on in current series. And I said, I don't know what that is, but no one's offering me anything better. So I basically started there. And then that got me to ABC in 1993. Wow.

[Will Friedel]

Okay. So at ABC in 93, the same year Boy Meets World started.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, I started ABC in 93. And I wasn't even. It's weird. I wasn't even supposed to be covering Boy Meets World, but the woman who was on the Pilot left. And so they basically said, we have the show. And then it was handed over to me because, you know, basically when you're a current executive, when you're one of say five or six current executives, you're responsible. You're the point person for four to five shows. That's.

[David Brownfield]

I was just going to ask. So you have four to five different shows at a time on your.

[Danielle Fishel]

Four to five different shows at a time. And there can be comedies and dramas mostly. Most times it's a combination. Can't have someone doing too many comedies back in the day when there were all these sitcoms because obviously the shooting schedules are conflicting with. And that sort of thing. So at that point, I think Boy Meets World was probably my only comedy. But yeah, so I wasn't around for the pilot of the show, but I was around from. I covered the show for the first three seasons. Wow. And then in the fourth season, I was still at ABC. This is my last year at ABC. I was there for four years, 93 to 97. I started to do more development. So I wasn't on the show in year four and then in year five, and then at the end of year four for Boy Meets World, I left ABC to go be a sitcom writer. So I was a sitcom writer for. So that would have been year five of Boy Meets World. And actually Michael, this is a long winded.

[David Brownfield]

Quite great.

[Danielle Fishel]

No, it helps just move things along. Anyway, Michael offered me a job writing on Boy Meets World for season five when I left. And I was. Which was incredibly generous. I was also offered a job working on a show called over the Top.

[Will Friedel]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Which you never heard of. And over the Top ran for 12 episodes.

[David Brownfield]

This was not based on the Steven, the. The Sylvester Stallone arm wrestling movie, was it?

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. Completely different. This was Tim Curry, Annie Potts and an unknown actor named Steve Carell. Oh.

[Will Friedel]

When cast.

[Danielle Fishel]

Because I don't know if you remember, but it's worth watching this documentary. The last year I was at abc, Dana Carvey did a sketch show. It's called the Dana Carvey show. And there's a Hulu documentary on it called Too Funny to Fail. And if you haven't seen it, it's really good. And in that company was Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert, among other people. Robert Smigel, who, you know, went on to create a triumph, the insult dog comic was head writer on the show. So they signed holding deals with Carell and I'm not sure if cbs, someone signed a deal with Colbert. And so Carell was on over the top. Playing this inst. Insane role. And like most new shows, you know, it burned hot and bright and then burned out. And so after about. We shot 12 there at 5. And then I went back out as an unemployed writer and Michael offered me a job again prior to year six of Boy Meets World. And I was like, well, I'm insane if I don't take it now a second time. That's how I wound up on Boy Meets World, writing on the staff for years six and seven. Wow.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah, that. Wait, the Dana Carvey Show. There's that famous clip that is so funny where the night it premiered, to advertise it, they cut from a home improvement clip of the possibility of Jonathan Taylor Thomas finding out he has cancer. And it's like, you hear that? You know, I can't die, Dad. I can't die. And he's like, you're not gonna die. We're gonna get you through this. And now the Dana Carvey show, and it's the funniest transition, and they're showing Steve Carell and all the actors and everybody's just losing it. It's so. Yeah, you. You should go check that out. It's great.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, it's a great show.

[Will Friedel]

I want to ask you a little bit more detail because we have never interviewed a network executive on the show. And, and. And it's kind of a total mystery to us. So I'd love to know more. Before you became. Before you went into development, can you describe to me what your job was when you oversee four or five shows and one of those shows is Boy Meets World? What's your. What's the main part of your job? What kind of notes are you giving? What. Describe your job for us at abc?

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, well, I would say being a current executive on a show depends on where the show is in its kind of like development process. I mean, you really. If you're talking about a show in the first two or three seasons, you're really talking about kind of slowly but surely developing the show and dealing with the fact that most shows, very few shows come in, are handed to you fully baked. Right. I mean, what I remember about the beginning of Boy Meets World was the premise of the show was what's it like to have your teacher as your next door neighbor. That was kind of like the central premise of the show. And I think we all realized fairly early on in the first season that while that was nice, that could not. You're not going to be able to build 100 episodes on that premise. Right. And So a lot of it is just kind of, as I used to say, it's too bad that television shows aren't like sports franchises where you get practice games, like get five or six games that don't count. Because what generally happens in these shows is, you know, you, you. It's trial and error. And a lot of times you spend time writing the things that you realize, oh, man, those two characters are really not great in a scene together and we really shouldn't put them in scenes anymore. But he shot five or six episodes, you know, and there's only so much reshooting that can be done. So you really kind of trying to. To lean into what's really working, especially in the first, I don't know, one and a half seasons of the show and trying to avoid what isn't and also realizing we need to open up new avenues. We need to find other areas that characters can explore. We may need to bring in other characters. But it's also a real. It's difficult because you're producing episodes at the same now you're producing episodes at the same time. They're airing really only a limited amount of time to make changes, to make fundamental changes, because you may make some great fundamental change that's not going to be on the air for another six weeks scenario. So that's kind of what happened with Boy Meets World. Right. I mean, because I went back and I looked at the. I looked at a few episodes of the first season, then I looked at the second season. The second season is kind of a complete reboot. Completely different show, but completely out of necessity.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Because as brilliant as Bill Daniels is and was, he can't carry that. I mean, look at Home Improvement, the scene with Tim and Wilson, right? The next door neighbor. That was one scene in every show that wasn't the storyline of every episode. So. And so, for a current executive, they're going to have, say, four or five shows, comedies and dramas, and they're basically. They're reading everything from the initial one pager of what the story is to the outline, which is, I used to say, is basically the script, but in blueprint form. Building a house. It's your construction plans. And then you're reading the script through various drafts, and then you're looking at dailies. If you're working on a drama, you're going to run throughs and tapings if you're working on a comedy. And it's a pretty cool job. I mean, what's really cool about it is you really get to kind of like look under the hood of shows. You know, I, I was a current exec for how long was I? Well, I guess at abc I was one for three years. And then I was a CBS for four years as a, as a strictly current executive, like again doing kind of the same thing, mostly on dramas then. And then I was made head of the department. So at that point, the job changes. Right now you're responsible for 20, you're 20 to 25 shows. And as I used to say, I'm responsible for all of those shows and I'm responsible for none of those shows.

[Will Friedel]

Because you're not the person. There's.

[Danielle Fishel]

You only have a certain amount of time in your day and you quickly realize that you got to focus on the shows that are in their first and second years and you've got to train a staff so that they can handle the day to day stuff. But you know, the bigger picture on something, you know, like when I was at cbs, once CSI got past year four, I was like, I want to know the big arcs.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah, right.

[Danielle Fishel]

Want to know the big problems, bumps. But you, if I've trained the executive right, you're the day to day person on the show. You know what I mean? So you've just got to give me a heads up if I'm going to get a phone call or tell me you need to call this person and say some. Deliver good news or deliver bad news. It varies. So. But my time at abc, honestly, I remember it really fondly because if you think about it, in four years I was there, you had, I mean, you had seminal television, you had Home Improvement and comedy. And then you, I just remembered. And you had Ellen coming out.

[Will Friedel]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

And then on the dramatic side, you had My so Called Life, which even though it didn't run very long, is still an incredible show. And you had like the gold standard of cop shows in NYPD Blue.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And that's just in four years I was there. And then you also had like, you guys, you also had Full House and Family Matters, which, you know, Full House itself invented a whole genre of show and you had tgif. So it was a lot packed into a short amount of time and very successful, which always helps.

[Will Friedel]

Yes, that, that definitely helps.

[David Brownfield]

You mentioned, you said you're, you're responsible at times for delivering good news or bad news. Was there ever a time that you can remember, especially first season of Boy Meets World going into second, where there was talk of, this isn't working, we're not going to pick it Up.

[Danielle Fishel]

I don't remember that. I really don't. But I do remember going, we need a new showrunner. We need to bring somebody in and we need to. Michael's really busy and we need to bring somebody in who can kind of, I mean, reinvent the show is too strong. Because there was definitely enough. There was enough of the DNA that I don't think the show was ever in danger of being canceled. In fact, it was interesting because I was listening to you. I've listened to a couple other episodes with the writers and I think you guys had this perception that you were on the bubble every year is definitely not true. I can't. I can only say for the time I was there. And this is kind of inside baseball, but you were kind of certainly on tgif, you were on a little bit of an island in the sense that you were surrounded most of the years, at least for three or four of them you were surrounded by family matters, step by step and hanging with Mr. Cooper. Now, what are those shows have in common? In addition to Full House? They're Warner Brothers shows. Right. So Warner Brothers owned a lot of ABC schedule. It's ironic that they owned a lot of CBS schedule when I too. And so picking up a show with the exceptions of shows that are just, you know, unquestionable pickups, which, you know, like Home Improvements, Full House, Roseanne, if you pick up one show, there's a lot of other shows that are kind of in the same category. They're like, hey, wait, where's my pickup? So I feel like at least I don't remember Boy Meets Berl being a questionable pickup. Certainly from year. I don't even think it was from year one to year two, but definitely not in years two to three, three to four. It was just a matter of you don't pick up something on its own, you pick up something mass. So it's also a better announcement. We're picking up the entire TGIF lineup. Right. So, yeah, I don't think it. I don't think it was really touch and go. And to be honest, I don't even remember when I was on staff of the show there being that big a question about whether we were going to go from year six to year seven. Man. Wow.

[David Brownfield]

I still think we're going to be canceled.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. But as actors, that's kind of the lie, you know. But I don't remember. I'm not saying it never was the case, but I don't. I think there was a lot of pressure on who the Showrunner was going to be.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

The fact that David Kendall had worked.

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

In the ABC Family for a long time on Growing Pains. Yeah. A huge asset that he had done it before. They were going to hire someone who hadn't done it before. You know what I mean? So. And I don't think Ed and John want. My memory is that Ed and John didn't want to stay on and I think also they wouldn't have. Not because they weren't really good writers. And I actually built friendships with both those guys to John periodically, but I don't think they wanted it. And I think ABC was just like, look, we need to bring somebody in who knows the DNA of a long running ABC show. And so they got David, who remains a friend to this day and was a, you know, was a rock. Which is what made it.

[Will Friedel]

Absolutely. We love David Kendall here.

[David Brownfield]

We do, we do.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[David Brownfield]

Well, it also makes perfect sense because I remember Michael telling me one of the things not only was Boy Meets World pitched as a kid living next door to his teacher, but it was also pitched as Growing Pains from the point of view of the middle child.

[Danielle Fishel]

Correct. That was. Yes.

[David Brownfield]

So, yeah, that makes sense that then you bring in Kendall and it's just a perfect fit at that point.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly, exactly. So. And you just even had to build up the cast because as if you look at the beginning of year two, the beginning of year two doesn't look like, you know, the beginning, like, like year four. It's a, it's a challenge. It's also a challenge when in your show. And as much as I love them both, the parents don't really play a substantial role in the show the way they do in most other TGIF or family shows. You know, I mean, they're around, but you're not building regular stories around them as this, as the driver of the story.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, we did it. You did it a few times. And I love story. I, I used to love stories, especially built around Rusty. Yeah. Because, you know, he's such a veteran, reliable actor and could do anything. But that's not what the show really. That's not where the bread and butter of the show was. Right.

[Michael Jacobs]

It was more of a school show.

[Danielle Fishel]

In that school show, you know, more driven by, by you guys, the kids. And, you know, especially in the first season, I always used to feel like, okay, this story really begins when Feeny enters in a weird way. You know what I mean? What's his connection going to be? Which was great, but not enough. And so, you know, That's. That's a lot about why. Why a lot of shows fail. Because you should have pilot, and you're like, this is great. Oh, my God. And then you start to go, oh, wait a minute. And you really realize that when you work on big hit shows. Like, I remember working on Big Bang. Big Bang. I was at CBS or Big Bang Theory, and, you know, the three of them were obviously fantastic. But I remember, I think it was the end of the first season and there was a scene where it was only the three women, because Mime came on, I think, end of her season, and it was just Kaylee and Mayim and Melissa, and they were. There was a scene between the three of them. I'm like, wow, I don't really miss the guys at all. And I'm like, okay, so. And now we've got, you know, counting the guys, we've got seven places to go for comedy. Yeah. That's when, you know, you. You have a show that if you don't mess it up, it's gonna be around for a long time.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah, that show. Yeah. It also changed constantly because the Big Bang Theory was the show after Boy Meets World that I must have gotten nine different versions of that script to audition for. Year after year after year. It just kept coming back. I was like, big Bang Theory again. Didn't they make this last year? It's like it must have been three. Three pilot seasons in a row where there was a different version of the Big Bang Theory that they were trying to cast. They tried to get that show on the air forever. Yeah, I was amazing.

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, the original pilot of Big Bang Theory didn't make it on the air. The original pilot didn't have Kaylee, so. So they ended up recasting and then the show got on the air.

[David Brownfield]

What do you remember from not only your time at ABC, but also your time at cbs? What's the show that you remember that you were like, this show is brilliant. This is gonna go forever. And then it didn't get picked up or. That's the one that got away for you.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow. I mean, I. I remember shows that didn't get. Didn't go that I felt like. I mean, I. I thought they were really well done, but I. I understood why they didn't last. Like, we did a show called Swing Town when we were at. When I was at CBS. That was a period show set in the 60s, and it had a phenomenal pilot, but I realized that it wasn't going to be everyone's cup of tea. It was A period. Again, it's a period show. There are certain shows that I worked on that I felt like were like, were had good results, deserved better. Like I felt like the New Adventures of Old Christine, which is Jubilee Dreyfus show. That show ran, I think for five seasons, but it never got a gigantic audience. And it deserved it because it was an incredibly funny show. And I think had it been it, had it been on after Everybody Loves Raymond, I think that show could have run 10 years instead of five because she was just so.

[David Brownfield]

She's just, she's a brilliant. She's. She's brilliant.

[Danielle Fishel]

She's just brilliant. And I used to remember, like I used to go to run throughs and then I would go to another run through where, you know, I'd have to sit through some with actors who had like a thimble full of talent compared to her. And I'm like, this is kind of even more. I'm tortured. I just, I'd have to think about that. I mean, I don't know, you know, I mean, my so Called Life obviously deserved longer run than it had. Yep. Most shows, I mean, this is kind of hard. And producers, most shows that I think don't make it. Don't make it for a pretty good reason because it's really, really difficult. And also when you had so many shows on, you know, and you needed like lead characters that really could command an audience, especially in a drama and there were not as many people who would. Nowhere near as many people who were willing to do television.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

In those days.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah, that's true.

[Will Friedel]

I want to know more about your relationship, your working relationship with Michael because the fact that Michael then offered you a job writing Michael does not make those offers willy nilly. Like he really respects intelligence and he, you guys must have had a good relationship and he must have really respected the notes you gave. Gave as a network executive in order for him to want you on staff. What was working with Michael like on the network side like.

[Danielle Fishel]

You know, Michael was really passionate, which I always appreciate. And I also felt like, you know, my job is to, as I used to say, my job is to advocate for the show, but not. And I used to say this to all the executives who work with me, like, don't fall in love with your show because then you, then you can't see the problems with it. You know what I mean? And it's not perfect. Nothing's really perfect. But you also want to be able to point out, here's what I like, here's what I don't like. I also think that there are. I think Michael knew I was a real advocate for the show. He also knew I wasn't afraid to express my opinion. And I also think there's certain writers, and Michael's one of these. And you learn very quickly, like, there are certain writers who want you to express what the problem is, but they're not interested in you offering the fix. They're interested in you going, this is what's not working for me. Okay, but don't tell me how to fix it. And Michael was also. Generally. My experience with him was Michael note sessions. Michael went first to basically go, here's what I. Here's what's not working. You know, so no, sessions with Michael was. Michael was doing a lot of. Most of the talking.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Most of the time, he was right. I also feel like there are certain people who. No, sessions can get very, very long. And they also can. There's a lot of people in the room. There's too many people in the room. There's a lot of people in the room who are there but not talking. And so what I generally did, I would usually follow up with a phone call. I mean, this is to all executives, but I would follow up a little bit later and just hit on the two or three things that. That I thought were most important and be as clear as possible, because I think the worst thing you can do to a writer is confuse them.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I used to say, like, my mantra was, I'm not asking you to agree with my notes. I'm asking you to understand them. And the advantage of working on a sitcom is, is you have more than one bite at the apple, you're going to. Plus, if something's really not working, you learn. If something's really not working at the table, like a story's not working, don't note it, because it's going to change dramatically. So your notes are going to probably be completely irrelevant in 24 hours. But I also. So I felt like, you know, it's. Being a current exec on a show is.

[Michael Jacobs]

It's.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's at least 60 about. Do I want to see this person in my face five times a week? Yeah. I gotta walk onto that stage three times a week. And so it's like pissing off your roommate the first day of college. You don't want to do that.

[Will Friedel]

Right, Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

Definitely. The hardest part, I would say, is, you know, this is the first. You know, the first 25. Even longer, like, say 30. 30 episodes where you're really trying to Figure out what's working and what's not and not. No one really has all the answers to everything. And you're making a lot of mistakes, and you're making a lot of mistakes on the fly. And so I just think you gotta be. No one can be sure of much of anything. And I think he liked the fact that I was an advocate without being too pushy, and I was honest. And. And then, I mean, he read something I wrote, too, because I wrote a spec script just because someone said, you should try doing that. And I fully think that almost every executive should have to sit in front of a blank screen and realize what a horror that is.

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

And I was encouraged by people. And I kind of had a. Again, I had a slightly different entree because I wrote a specs a Mad about you specifically that I gave to Bruce Helford, who show. Another show I covered at abc. And I. For notes. I just gave it to him for notes. And he gave me notes and said, but you have a lot of potential in this. We're going to give you an episode to write next year. This is in between year one and two of Drew. And I said, that's really, really nice. And in my mind, I'm like, look, I'm not telling anybody about this because it's likely not going to happen because they're going to fall behind and they're. The last thing they're going to want is some newbie writing a script. Right. And come December, Bruce said, okay, right after the first of the year, you're coming in, and we're going to break your story. So I. I had this episode of Mad about yout that I had written, and I gave it to Michael, and Michael read it, liked it enough. So I think he knew that I was serious and, yeah, was going to leave being an executive to write. So, yeah, so we. We definitely had a very different relationship than I think anybody. In fact, there were times I was thinking about the writers room where I would, like, I would groan about something or just go, oh, come on, really? And. And I think people were taken aback, like, whoa. And. And Michael would. You know, there was a line where I think he would give me a look like, okay, I know we have this history, but back off. But he also respected me, so, Yeah, I mean. But again, he's responsible for, in a lot of ways, my having a writing career for three years.

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[Will Friedel]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

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[Will Friedel]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[David Brownfield]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

We're talking about going into season two and what a total shock and change it was from season one, like a full new reboot. Do you remember there being any conversations about Lee Norris and, and Minkus coming back? And because we've talked, we've now interviewed so many different people and talked about where that decision came from to let him go after season one. And we've heard everyone has a different, slightly different perspective on it. And so one area we've never asked is somebody from abc. Do you remember those conversations about not bringing Lee Norris back?

[Danielle Fishel]

I don't. My guess is, and knowing the people who were involved internally was his character was on the broader side.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And I think that probably at that point they were looking for like, let us, let's. Let's try and be as grounded as possible. The other thing is we're moving to another school. Do we. We're already taking. We've already got four people, the three of you and Ben who are going to be there, and we want to introduce two or three more characters. Right?

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

How much room is there? You know what I mean? So I think. I think it was probably a combination of both. And I also don't think. It's not like Lee was a breakout character on the show. I mean, I definitely remember what episode Danielle. Did you. Did you.

[Will Friedel]

Four. I was. Episode four.

[Danielle Fishel]

I completely remember that table read.

[Ryder Strong]

Really?

[Danielle Fishel]

And I completely remember the. I don't know if you'd call her girl or woman who was there at the table read and going, she's just not strong enough.

[Will Friedel]

Okay. So I was gonna say, because I wasn't there, it wasn't my table read. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I remember you being really good. And I remember saying, well, why not try her? She's right there.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I. Because I know there's been all sorts of versions of that. I just remember. I remember sitting at that table afterwards and going, yeah, it's not going to work. I don't remember if. I don't remember if she got a run through or not, but I remember.

[Will Friedel]

But she was there. She had a. She had a table read and a full day of rehearsal.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, right, right, right. And obviously the stakes were super high and you were. You were in the right place at the right time and so. But yeah, I definitely remember that. Wow.

[Will Friedel]

Wow. So funny. Interesting. All right, well, that was my other question. My other question was, do you remember. Do you remember when I came onto the show?

[Danielle Fishel]

Totally, totally. I was not around for Cardellini.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, you have me.

[Danielle Fishel]

I missed that whole part.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah. Cause that was season five. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. That's when you were writing for another show. So what was joining the writers room then in season six? Like, were they all having fun? Was it. Was it a fun room? How would you describe it?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, it was incredib. Incredibly fun. I mean, it's funny because I went back and watched the four episodes that my name's on. I remember, honestly so little about. I remember there's random things you remember. I remember in the. The B episode, we offered Ronnie Cox the role. Remember Ronnie Cox, the actor from Term? He was in Terminator, Not Terminator. He was in Robocop. Oh, yes. Yeah. And he wrote this really sweet note and he couldn't do it. But the writers room was great. I remember so many specifics. I literally, I could. If you. If we went into the room, I could tell you where everybody was sitting.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, God. Did everyone have, like, assigned seats?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes, absolutely. But that's true about most writers.

[Will Friedel]

I love it.

[David Brownfield]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

It just happens, you know, when I sit. It was a. I mean, I had been in, you know, a few writers room at that point because I had worked on two or three shows prior and I'd also help friends on pilots. It was a big room. Kind of too big in a way, in my opinion, in the sense that what ends up happening, the bigger the room, the fewer people speak, you know what I mean? Regularly. But then we also at times would break the room down to get. When we got behind and then to have two or three rooms and then more people speak, which is really, really good. But yeah, it was an incredibly kind room. Like there was very little tension. Great and respectful and you know, I remember just the. I used to say, like, these are, you know, you spend so much time with these people. I don't think there's a restaurant in town where if you handed me a menu at that point, I couldn't have ordered for everybody.

[Will Friedel]

Do you have a Kukaroo? Was Kukuru still around by season six?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, I think it may have been. But that wasn't one of our gigantic go to places from my memory. I mean, we didn't also. We also, we ordered dinner a fair amount of time. But our hours on that show were generally speaking, I think, pretty okay. I mean, I worked. I. I came from a show where we did a lot of late, late, late night writing, which I couldn't, I just couldn't handle. Which over the top we were. Oh, that one.

[David Brownfield]

Okay. Oh, yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Late nights and over the top and my. I just can't function that way. You know what I mean? Like, I think that, I mean, most people would tell you that whatever's pitched after about 10:00 clock at night.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Doesn't get shot.

[Will Friedel]

Right. You end up reading it the next day. Like, what were you thinking?

[Danielle Fishel]

We were thinking we wanted to go home. That's what we were thinking.

[Will Friedel]

Exactly.

[Michael Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So. But, you know, but writers rooms are odd places.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

They remain odd places. They're now been made even odder because of zoom. Yeah. But, but yeah, it was incredibly a really nice group of people. It was also interesting enough it was a real wide range of people, age wise, because we had, I think Carlos was the youngest and yeah, I don't know, he was. God, he had probably like in his.

[Will Friedel]

Middle mid-20s and Erica Montalfo was in her mid-20s.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. And then we also have people, you know, who are quite a. Quite a bit older, a lot more and I was kind of in between.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So, yeah, I mean, and at that point, Bob was running the show. Tischler, and, you know, Bob is sweetest, sweetest man in the world.

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

And so, no, it was. It was a lot of fun. And I would say that, like, where there were. There were only a couple of points where that. I remember where things got a little blue, you know, a little too blue for people and that. But I remember at least people would speak up and go, hey, hey, hey, guys, can we. Can we pull it back a little bit? You know what I mean? Like, it was definitely not what I would consider to be a rough room.

[David Brownfield]

That's good.

[Danielle Fishel]

And I don't remember it as being, like, abusive at. At all. And. And also, I think if there was tension, people would get up and walk around. You know, that's. That's the big difference now between now and the Zoom thing is, is, like, I think it's a lot easier in zoom rooms because I have friends who write on mostly in zoom rooms, and I think it's much, much easier for resentments to build up.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And also just the distractions are a whole different thing, you know, like, I mean, people texting while they're on Zoom or live chats. And it's. Generally speaking, I think it's. I mean, it's more efficient.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Question. If you run it efficiently, but in terms of the camaraderie.

[Will Friedel]

Not the same. Yeah, close.

[Danielle Fishel]

Not. Plus, also, if you think about it, writers, generally speaking, are more solitary and quieter people. And now you're sticking a camera in their face. Yeah, all the time.

[Will Friedel]

And even, like you said, just the idea that if something was getting tense or somebody needed a moment, you would get up and walk around, but you could still, like, keep eyes on that person or go out in the hallway. Whereas, like now with your computer, if you get up and walk away from your computer, you're essentially no longer in the meeting.

[Danielle Fishel]

You're no longer in the meeting. Right.

[Will Friedel]

You can't get that. Like, okay, I just need to walk around for a little bit. I need to stretch my legs. Like, you'd have to take your computer with you.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, completely. But, I mean, the bigger thing is, it's like if you're having a problem with someone in the writer's room and you're in person, that can't go on very long.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

Like, you basically are like, look, we're going to be in this room, so I may not love you, but I'm not going to go. So whereas on. On Zoom, I just think it's a matter of yeah, of course it can go on, you know. Yeah, I'm not even in the same city as you. Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

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[Will Friedel]

Parents let's talk snacks. If your mornings look anything like mine, you're reheating the same cup of coffee for the third time. One kid can't find his water cup and the other is crying because their socks feel too spicy. That's why Mott's no sugar added applesauce pouches are perfect to have nearby. These things are clutch made with real apples, no sugar added. And the pouch? Genius. It's mess free and perfect for the car, the lunchbox or after school activities. This is a snack you can feel good about and a good source of vitamin C too. Just tasty applesauce your kids will actually want to eat. The other day I handed one to my kid during rush hour traffic. Instant silence. He went from feral raccoon to calm librarian in two squeezes flat. Trust me, your future self will thank you. Motts. Real apples make real good applesauce. Learn [e-mail] this summer, Disney is going.

[Tara Sudbaksh]

Retro with all your Disney and Hulu throwback faves. Hit endless rewind on Disney with the Princess diaries, the Lizzie McGuire Movie and Freaky Friday. Then with Hulu. Throw it back with Gilmore Girls, One Tree Hill and Full House. All these and more now totally streaming with Hulu on Disney with a bundle subscription available with bundle plan starter starting at $10.99 a month. Terms apply. Visit disneyplus.com hulu for details.

[Will Friedel]

The name of this product is the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a lot of name, but it's also a lot of card.

[David Brownfield]

It earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your dog. Purchases big and small earn unlimited 2% cash rewards.

[Michael Jacobs]

No limits, no categories to track, just straightforward rewards that keep adding up, up.

[Will Friedel]

So you might stumble a bit while saying it, but paying with it will make you stumble upon so much more. Shopping, dining, cooking, gardening. You get the idea.

[David Brownfield]

Let's say it together.

[Will Friedel]

The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. You know what? It does have a ring to it. No, seriously, try saying it out loud. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo.

[David Brownfield]

Ooh, that sounds nice.

[Michael Jacobs]

Learn more@wells Fargo.com ActiveCash terms apply Summer.

[Will Friedel]

Is right around the corner. And you know what that means.

[Michael Jacobs]

Barbecues.

[David Brownfield]

Sunny days by the pool with my shirt on.

[Will Friedel]

No unwanted hair. No one wants that. So we're here to remind you about Nair, the number one hair removal brand. The gold standard in the field.

[David Brownfield]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

But we're focusing on my favorite, the wax strips. It makes for the easiest wax ever and it lasts up to four weeks, all while minimizing hair regrowth and most importantly, saving me time. I have a podcast to record, a little league practice to watch, and a bedtime of 8.30pm Nair is an actual lifesaver.

[David Brownfield]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

Well, we recently rewatched or watched, I guess for the first time for some of us. Your episode season six, Hogs and Kisses, which is a wild episode that has Topanga filming a college promo and hitting a relationship roadblock with when she kisses Sean in the video. Do you remember how this idea came about? Did you pitch the idea? Who came up with the idea that Topanga and Sean would make out for the art of the college video?

[Danielle Fishel]

I definitely didn't pitch this idea. I don't know how there's certain episodes, a couple of episodes that I wrote where I feel like I came in with the idea. I don't. This is where my memory. The specifics of these episodes. Yeah, really, I don't entirely remember, and I think that there may be. Have been ideas about that. Maybe there was a germ of an idea that threw out, that I threw out that it changed. But I don't remember too much about the specifics there, to be honest, so I wish I could say I did. I know you're not a fan of the episode and I could completely don't blame you, but it's weird looking back at this stuff. Like I said, the memories for me are the room and the day to day as opposed to. As the specifics of any episode.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, we talk about it a million times that it's unbelievable how much our memories are not about the shooting of the show or the episode or the lines. It's the stuff that happened at craft service. It's the stuff that, that, you know, the conversations we had in school or it's those moments that we remember way more than like, you're saying the specifics of the show. So some character stuff I want to know. Do you remember what your take on generally on Cory and Topanga was? What your thoughts were on them as a couple?

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, I liked them as a couple. I thought everything was happening in an obviously kind of like, way too accelerated way. But I also think that because I remember there being a lot of debate about should they get married or not. And it's so young, you know what I mean? And I think everyone was kind of at. It was a point like, well, what can we do to this? What can happen in this relationship that hasn't already happened? So it wasn't mirroring reality, obviously. And so I think we felt like that was the next step for them to take. I mean, they were incredibly appealing as a couple. And so. And that's what viewers really, A lot of the viewers really kind of like, were responding to. I. I also remember it at the time and looking back, that we didn't know what to do with. With Jack and Eric and.

[David Brownfield]

Rachel.

[Danielle Fishel]

Rachel, yeah. And so I think we were completely at sea. And I think the episodes reflect that, that honestly.

[David Brownfield]

Do you. Do you remember when they, when, when you came on season six, did they tell you already that they were adding a new character or were you there when they were kind of debating or deciding to put Rachel on the show?

[Danielle Fishel]

I think she was on the show already.

[David Brownfield]

She was.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay, well, I. I shouldn't say that. I should say that they were the character was coming on. Yeah, I remember Maitland being cast. Okay, but I want to.

[Michael Jacobs]

I want to go back for a minute to your time as an. As an executive, because I'm so curious. Back then, besides ratings, how did you get feedback? Like, how did. I mean, you guys had your internal meetings about these characters are popping, but were you getting letters from fans? Like, how would you get that feedback now? It's obviously online, but back then, how would you know?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, I mean, they definitely got. They got kind of viewer responses online and how they could tell how storylines play. There was also focus group testing, obviously, with a much bigger thing back then in terms of, you know, where you'd focus group test a few episodes a year to see how people were responding.

[Michael Jacobs]

Oh, interesting.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, also too, it's interesting is that, like, so many more people were watching network television just across the board.

[Will Friedel]

Yes, yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

So, you know, a show could stay on the air for a long time and draft off the show in front of it in a way that you never were able to before. And I think that. So it was probably a combination of. It was the ratings. It was. Yeah, you got audience feedback. You got tons of audience feedback. And you were reading like. Like what. What people were responding to it. It took longer, but. But yeah, I think that's kind of what it was. And also, you know, certain shows, there were certain things where shows started humming along. You're like, okay, look, the show's doing. Doing well. Creatively. We're really happy with it. Which happened to Boymutoman, a no run, no show run seven years when you're not. And you're not creatively happy. You know what I mean? So. So you get to a certain point, I mean, there's. When a show runs as long as it is, I always feel like the sweet spot for a show is almost like episode like 35 to like 55. Because it's kind of like you're past what doesn't work. You've made all those mistakes, but you haven't done gone through everything yet. And. And so that's really great. And then, you know, with most shows, you get to about, you know, 50, 55, you're like, okay, we gotta. We gotta start looking for something else here. And that was the challenge with Cory and Topanga. Right, because what else.

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, the Sean episode, to your point, was probably because, okay, look, let's. We've never done an episode where Sean came between corny and to pen manga, and that would flip Corey out, so that's at least funny.

[Will Friedel]

Right, exactly.

[Danielle Fishel]

So that's probably where we were at that point.

[David Brownfield]

Do you remember what the strangest possible storyline that you heard pitched in the room was for either six or seven.

[Danielle Fishel]

God. I mean, we did or didn't do either. We did the drag show, which was pretty strange, is that we have.

[Will Friedel]

Is that with Eric and Jack and.

[Danielle Fishel]

Sean were women, or was it Eric?

[Michael Jacobs]

That was in season.

[David Brownfield]

We'd done them both.

[Michael Jacobs]

We did a season four. We had chick like me, which actually is a pretty good episode.

[Danielle Fishel]

Probably you guys, it was Eric and Jack.

[David Brownfield]

Eric and Jack.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[David Brownfield]

That dress to leave a bully.

[Danielle Fishel]

That was pretty nuts. The. I'm trying to think of what else. What was the episode where you guys. You. And that was weird. The episode where Quinn Topanga went to some Caribbean episode.

[Michael Jacobs]

That was the honeymoon.

[Danielle Fishel]

That wasn't good.

[David Brownfield]

No, no, it was not.

[Will Friedel]

I'm glad you agree with us.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's interesting now in terms of, like, the things you can't do that you could do back then. You know what I mean? This is true about all shows in terms of. Of some of the sexism.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And the. The racism that you just cannot. You cannot. You couldn't do today. You know?

[Will Friedel]

No.

[Danielle Fishel]

So it was very much of a different time because I watch these episodes. Like, wow, that was. Yeah. But yeah, of course, that wasn't even close to the line. But our show could hardly be called a controversial show. You know what I mean? And we never had standards and practice issues on the show like we did on. On many other shows that I worked on. So it's really. It's kind of. It's interesting in that respect.

[Will Friedel]

Did you have a Boy Meets World character you liked writing for the most?

[Danielle Fishel]

Eric? No question. Will is just. I mean, you all are amazingly talented, but we'll just. Will's blessing and his curse is that he could make anything funny.

[Will Friedel]

Anything.

[Danielle Fishel]

And that's a. That, like I said, that truly gift. But it's also. For a writer, it's kind of like, no, whatever. Just put it in. We're running out of time. And that's who. That's. I know you guys have asked us of other people. Who did you. Who did you read? Who. The table reads where we. That was very strange reading. The. Doing a table read of the writers of you guys was a very strange thing. And I didn't particularly like the idea because I was like, no joke should die because the actor didn't have a chance at it. But I always read well's part.

[David Brownfield]

Oh, cool.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. So. But yeah, that was a bizarre Process. And I was kind of like, I didn't want to make, I never believed in making too many changes to the jokes just based on that. I mean, with the story, it's, you know, But I don't, I don't think you need a table read of writers to know whether her stories were working or not. Right.

[Will Friedel]

Well, you ended up writing four episodes in total, two in season six, two in season seven, and stayed with us till the end of the show. And then as you mentioned, you found yourself as the vice president of CBS, then senior vice president, two very high level positions over 13 years within the company. Did you ever buy any Michael Jacobs shows when you were at cbs? Did you ever work with anyone from your time at Boy Meets World again after you left? Left.

[Danielle Fishel]

Michael never pitched the show. Well, I was never, I don't know if Michael ever pitched the show to cbs. I was in current. I wasn't in development. It wasn't. But I always used to say, if you don't think the first, first year and maybe in the second year of a show is development, then you've never done development.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

You know, because the development department, a lot of times it's like they hand it off to you and you're like, oh, you guys really had fun doing one episode. Now we have to do the Real World and there's some problems here. You know what I mean? You handed us off a colicky baby in most cases. So let me think. I worked, I never worked with Laura and Patty, were on, I think, a couple of shows that, dramas that I worked around. But no, not, not comedies, not comedies. So no, I mean, then people may have come in and pitched stuff. I'm trying to think of who else. Barbie may have come in and pitched something, but not to the point where I actually was on, on sets with them or giving notes to any of them. I never had to deal with that.

[David Brownfield]

What do you, curiously, what do you think from the executive side of the slow, painful death of the American sitcom?

[Danielle Fishel]

You know, I think it's, well, I think it's, there's, it's kind of the slow, painful death of scripted television.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, yeah, there's kind of, as far as the sitcom is concerned, because there's been post Boy Meets World, there was another rise and another fall of, you know, comedy. I think that it's a combination of things. I think that there's, there's only. There were, from a, from a cost perspective, the best writers were far more interested in doing single cameras than they were in doing in Multi cameras. I think multi camera had a stink about it, kind of renewed stink about it that I think now has, has shifted a little bit and people. Multi camera is a cheaper form so people want to come back to it. But I don't know. I think now it's a bigger issue of just, you know, there's, if they can have cheaper programming, they're going to take it. And so it's difficult because you, there's just not space. Even if, even if there were eight phenomenal multi cams, I think putting on a reality show or investing in sports is a better bang for your buck for a lot of the, for the, the certainly the broadcast network.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So, you know, I definitely think there was a time, I mean when Boy Meets. Not when I started on Boy Meets World. If you look at the schedules of the networks, there were probably 75% more comedies on than at the end of Boy Meets World, like just in a year period. Now that was, that was too much. There were too many comedies on and the talent pool was spread really, really thin because again, going back to like the idea of at that point a lot of people were still, still thought it was an insult to do television. So to have, and, and with a sitcom you've got to have a lead obviously or, or two people who are driving most of the stories and that people fall in love with. And so the talent pool was stretched just way, way, way too thin. And you know, a lot of comics were given, you know, you look, you comics were given shows based on nothing. You know, they were, I shouldn't say based on nothing. They were, they had huge reputations as comics. But you know, you talk about a show like Drew Carey, you know, Drew was an amazing, great stand up but if you go back and watch that show, he's surrounded by really funny people.

[David Brownfield]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

Who've got, you know, who've got years of improv experience behind and guest actors who are really, really strong. So they're buying time for him to ease into the form. And that was the case with not enough shows. There just weren't enough people who were kind of like supporting leads or you know, Friends is lightning in a bottle. It's like, like Big Bang Theory. You're not going to get five or six really, really funny people in a cast when everybody's desperately trying to cast.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I think now, I mean to me now is a great time for more sitcoms to be produced. It's just a matter of there's got to be a desire to do it and linear Television obviously is being really, really challenged right now by the streamers.

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

So we're in a period of contraction. But I also think that there's a place, if there is a way to do it in a more cost efficient way, more sitcoms will get on the air. It's just a matter of how do you do it, you know, cheaper. And we're also at a point where anybody could create content, so that's also part of it too. Right? Right. I have a 13 year old daughter, so the way she consumes content is completely different than the way I do. Right. And that genie's not going back in the bottle.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, exactly.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's now a far more complicated answer than just yay, put more sitcoms on. You know, for sure.

[Ryder Strong]

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[Will Friedel]

Parents, let's talk snacks. If your mornings look anything like mine, you're reheating the same cup of coffee for the third time. One kid can't find his water cup and the other is crying because their socks feel too spicy. That's why Mott's no Sugar Added Applesauce pouches are perfect to have nearby. These things are clutch made with real apples, no sugar added and the pouch? Genius. It's mess free and perfect for the car, the lunchbox or after school activities. This is a snack you can feel good about and a good source of vitamin C too. Just tasty applesauce your kids will actually want to eat. The other day I handed one to my kid during rush hour traffic. Instant silence. He went from feral raccoon to calm librarian in two squeezes flat. Trust me, your future self will thank you. Motts Real apples make real good applesauce. Learn [e-mail] this summer, Disney is going.

[Tara Sudbaksh]

Retro with all your Disney and Hulu throwback faves. Hit endless rewind on Disney with the Princess diaries, the Lizzie McGuire Movie and Freaky Friday. Then with Hulu, Throw it back with Gilmore Girls, One Tree Hill and Full House. All these and more now totally streaming with Hulu on Disney plus with a bundle subscription available with bundle plans starting at $10.99 a month. Terms apply. Visit disneyplus.com hulu for details.

[Will Friedel]

The name of this product is the Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo. That's a lot of name, but it's also a lot of card.

[David Brownfield]

It earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. Whether it's buying tickets to the game with your mom or grabbing a coffee with your, do purchases big and small. Earn unlimited 2% cash rewards.

[Michael Jacobs]

No limits, no categories to track, just straightforward rewards that keep adding up.

[Will Friedel]

So you might stumble a bit while saying it, but paying with it will make you stumble upon so much more. Shopping, Dining, Cooking, Gardening. You get the idea.

[David Brownfield]

Let's say it together.

[Will Friedel]

The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases. You know what? It does have a ring to it. No, seriously, try saying it out loud. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo.

[David Brownfield]

Ooh, that sounds nice.

[Michael Jacobs]

Learn more@wells fargo.com forward/activecash terms apply.

[Will Friedel]

Summer is right around the corner and you know what that means.

[Michael Jacobs]

Barbecues.

[David Brownfield]

Sunny days by the pool with my shirt on.

[Will Friedel]

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[David Brownfield]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

But we're focusing on my favorite the wax strips. It makes for the easiest wax ever and it lasts up to four weeks, all while minimizing hair regrowth and most importantly, saving me time. I have a podcast to record, a Little League practice to watch, and a bedtime of 8.30pm Nair is an actual lifestyle.

[David Brownfield]

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[Michael Jacobs]

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[Will Friedel]

I want to ask you about one other job you had content Executive and a producer for Dick Wolf Entertainment. One of the most.

[David Brownfield]

Sorry, one of my favorites.

[Will Friedel]

Calm down.

[David Brownfield]

I can't, I can't. It's Law and Order.

[Danielle Fishel]

I can't do it.

[Will Friedel]

One of the most successful brands in TV history. The team behind every Law and Order and all the best crime shows, basically. Was that a close? Was that a company you had worked closely with at cbs?

[Danielle Fishel]

No, I'd never worked. Honestly, I don't know that I ever worked on a Dick Wolf show before I got that job because Dick Wolf shows were all on NBC.

[Will Friedel]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

When I was at abc. Or he may have tried to develop a show at ABC or CBS while I was there, but I don't think so. It was all. His shows were all NBC. So an FBI. The FBI's were, were developed and aired at CBS long after I was gone. Because I left CBS as an executive in 2013. I had a production deal for three, three years.

[Will Friedel]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's those shows then. And they came on even after that because I think FBI is going into like its seventh season or something. So it was a really fascinating experience. I mean, I fortunately came into that job with the background of working on long running franchises like CSI and cis. So I understood the kind of, you know, and I mean this in a completely positive way, factory mentality.

[Michael Jacobs]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Like this is our brand, this is what we do, right? Yes. We deviate a little bit at times, but we know what, we know what works. And so just a phenomenal machine. Also, what was, what was different for me is that all his shows, none of his shows shoot in la. So in order to build relationships, I had to get on a plane and go to Chicago for all the Chicago shows or New York for. And I did, I did very, very little on Law and Order. Wasn't around. Actually. Law and Order was rebooted the year after I left. It was being rebooted as I left and SVU was going into its 25th season. So it was very, very nice that I got this. All these. All of a sudden, it was almost impossible to not see my name on network television.

[David Brownfield]

It was everywhere. Everywhere I turn, there you were. I can't watch a single murder without seeing your name.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. Right. And then that's just kind of like a perk that executives get at Wolf to get a credit on screen, which I always laughed at because I was so intricately involved in so many shows at cbs and I. And I rightfully never got a credit because again, it's not, you know what I mean? But the first thing I did when I saw my name. And I was like, every producer I talked to, I'm like, I promise you, I'm not taking a dime out of your budget. It's not costing you a dime to have my name on the screen. You know what I mean? Because Wolf is. Is a family, a real family of people who've worked together for a long, long time, and the editors who've been there forever. And that's part of the reason why their shows are so well done. So when a new person comes in, you really do feel like a gas. But everybody was really, really nice. And I was involved in kind of like the development of organized crime, which now. The Chris Maloney show, which is now on Peacock. Yeah. And. And then with FBI Most Wanted, that show. And. And now. Well, those two shows that were canceled, FBI must wanted an FBI International. I was involved in the development of those two shows. Very involved in FBI and the Chicago shows, again, to varying degrees. The nice thing about Wolf, though, is a lot of the writers offices are there's two big buildings that maybe he has another by now, but there were two big buildings that. Where all the production and the Post production was done, actually three, because Post was in a whole other area and the writers. A lot of the writers were there. And that was really nice because I got to hang out because at Wolf, most of the shows at Wolf don't have writers rooms. And they. They basically, the writers come in, they work on their episodes themselves, and they pop into each other's offices. But there's a couple of Wolf shows that have rooms, but most don't. So it's nice because you literally could go down the hall and talk to someone and it's so. It's a. It's a very collegial feeling in that respect. And you really get to see. I mean, and I got to see this a lot when it came to csi, because obviously, obviously there was CSI Miami and CSI New York, and those shows were in some ways very different, but also they had the CSI production around them. And that's what Wolf was, is very.

[David Brownfield]

Much CSI Miami is still. Just watching Caruso's performance, episode after episode is one of my favorite ways to spend a day. It is just so awesome.

[Michael Jacobs]

I have a question about that period. So you're doing really kind of standard procedural crime stuff at the time when, you know, especially the streamers and you have your FXs, they're really breaking that mold. How did you feel about that? Were you envious of those shows or were you so happy and actually Very content to stick within the procedural confines.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, I think there was enough in certain shows. I mean, everybody's envious of doing kind of that type of. Type of work, but that's also not the job. You know what I mean? Like, but the. The nice thing about the Wolf shows is. And Brockheim was like this. Once you get Pat. Once you get into the third season, really, you start to do some personal stuff. Like, if you watch Chicago pd, which I think is a fantastic show. I mean, Chicago PD was the closest to NYPD Blue that I found since I worked at abc. It really reminded me a lot of that show. And that show did a lot of personal stuff. Chicago Med did a fair amount of personal stuff. So they weren't devoid of personal. Personal stories. But. But I don't know. I mean, I'm very pragmatic. I mean, that's one of the things when you. When you. When you're a current executive, you learn you've got to be very, very pragmatic about things and about, like, who you're producing shows goes for. And so you kind of pick your spots where you can do it and then. But you also don't sit there and go, if I deviate too far, I'm gonna lose my audience. And. Yeah, and that's. That's the job, you know, so, yeah, I mean, it's. I. I watch a lot of the. The other stuff you mentioned, but I also feel like, you know, these shows are the. These shows are some of the most popular shows in these streamers. Libraries. Right.

[Will Friedel]

No, totally.

[Danielle Fishel]

You know, you can. For every, you know, one or two ones that you do that are more auteur driven or, you know, heavy character, they're not the ones that are paying the bills.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Michael Jacobs]

It's so funny. I go. When I think back to the first time I saw the first episode of the Wire, I was like, well, this is a poorly written scene. Not enough is changing. We didn't move for the needle. And then it took like three episodes. I was like, oh, oh. They're like. They're folding the form out and expanding in a way. But it was. My instant reaction was like, why is everyone talking about the show? This is so poorly written. You know, and it just was a completely different mindset. But I think you're right.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's.

[Michael Jacobs]

You know, the procedural show is more popular ultimately. I think, you know, it ultimately wins.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, it's more popular. But also, like, to your point about, you know, just. Those are. That was a reason why a lot of Actors didn't want to do it. Because the worst thing for. For some of these actors would be like, you're telling me I have to play the same role hundred times, deliver.

[Michael Jacobs]

This exposition about the bullet.

[Danielle Fishel]

We would always. We would always laugh about this. Where there would. Inevitably there would be, you know, mostly was an actor, because back in those days, there were far more male leads and drama. They're kind of still are, but. And they would, you know, they would sign on for the role and part. A lot of the reason, I think why they signed on for the role was because. The money.

[Michael Jacobs]

Yeah, sure, the money.

[Danielle Fishel]

And. And. And. And it also allowed them to stay in one place. And, you know, at some point in season one, I mean, this happened with, like, I don't know, like seven to 10 actors I won't mention. They would, you know, start to get frustrated and, you know, because they're working. They're working six or seven days. And of the six or seven days, four or five of them are what we call shoe leather, which is. You're moving the plot along. Yep. And there'd be that. Sit down. You know where. With the executive person. I didn't sign on for this. And you're like, well, actually, you did sign.

[David Brownfield]

This is what you did sign on for Benjamin Brad.

[Danielle Fishel]

And you're gonna get to. You're gonna get to, you know, do more. But.

[David Brownfield]

Well, you see the turnover on the. Especially on Law and Order, where it's like you get two seasons of a D A, three seasons of a D A. And then there's a new one. You get two seasons of a detective, and then there's a new one.

[Michael Jacobs]

The guest stars are often the juiciest roles, Right?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Michael Jacobs]

Interrogation scenes. The guest stars are breaking down and having to admit something. I remember doing one of those shows and just being so excited because I got to, you know, I had the interrogation scene, and it was like a police ability abuse thing. I was like, all right. And I get in. I'm so excited to meet the two leads. And they're just like, who holds folder? Wait, I hand it to you. Wait, you take the folder and then I hand it to you. And they didn't want to look at me. They didn't want to talk about the scene. They just wanted to figure out who does the folder work. And I was like, oh, right, that's your life.

[Danielle Fishel]

This is.

[Michael Jacobs]

This scene is every other day for you. And, like, I'm just the new guest star of the week. But for me, it was like, I have to act. I have to do, you know, and they were like, who holds the. And, you know, that's all they could. That's all they had to worry about.

[Danielle Fishel]

Interesting. Because a lot of those Wolf actors, the Law and Order one, certainly, they stuck around for a long, long time.

[David Brownfield]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

But I also think, you know, those are veteran actors who also had done. Who appreciated, you know, the stability of the role and also. Also did stuff on the side. You know what I mean? Like, they did theater.

[Michael Jacobs]

I was gonna say, you're Chicago, New York actors. That's a different piece in a lot.

[David Brownfield]

That's why Sam Watterson didn't mind being on Law and Order for as long as he was on, because he's also doing theater.

[Michael Jacobs]

Theater.

[David Brownfield]

And he's like, I'm an actor. This is what I do. I have a great role on this. Why would I. Why would I leave?

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[David Brownfield]

So, yeah, it's the difference between an actor and someone who wanted to be a movie star.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, exactly. There were a lot of actors who were not lead characters on shows that I worked on who would be complaining, you know what I mean, about their character, Whatever. And. But those I would like. Okay, so then on your hiatus, you should be doing theater where, like, take.

[Michael Jacobs]

This money and produce your own play.

[Danielle Fishel]

On the call sheet on csi. But you could be doing Hamlet. You know, maybe not in. Maybe not in Central park, but certainly in a big city. Who would put your name on a billboard? But it's like, more. That's not what they did.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So it's. You know, it's a. It's. It's a phenomenal gig. But in the case of a number of them, you had to be like, okay, you know, this is. This is what the show is. And, yes, you will have your opportunities to. But. But we can't. On a show when there is a ticking clock. Why would we. Why would viewers want to go home with you? So there's a killer out there, you know, so you have to. You know, you pick your spots, and the longer a show goes on, the more forgiving an audience is about. Yeah, I do know why this character is divorced. I do want to see them have a new romantic relationship. But it's definitely a challenge on. On both ends.

[Will Friedel]

Well, you've worked closely. We've mentioned a few of them. You have worked closely with a ton of successful showrunners over the past 20 years, most importantly to this podcast, Michael Jacobs. But we have Dick Wolf, Chuck Lorre, Don McGill. The list goes on and on. Do you think there's anything in particular they all have in common.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. I mean, I think they have. I think they have strong points of view and aren't afraid to express them. I think they are decisive when they need to be. I think that they also understand the grind that producing 22 episodes is. I mean, the fact that it's just so crazy now where, you know, my friends who are working on shows that are eight to 10 episodes, I'm like, oh, my God.

[Michael Jacobs]

Luxury. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

You know, I can't believe we did 24 episodes.

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

World. One year. That's, you know, that's a couple years. Yeah. That's just, you know, put your head down and don't look up until Christmas.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. So I, I think, I think they also, whether they, Whether they're. They admitted or not, they find who they can delegate to and lean on that person. And I think they also are smart enough to admit what they don't know. I think those. Those are the trades. I also think you have to be able to. You have to have a thick skin and realize I am likely going to, if not piss off with every decision I make. Someone not going to like it. Right. Someone's going to disagree with it, but you have to be able to know that and move on.

[Will Friedel]

Yep.

[Danielle Fishel]

And I kind of looked at those people, and as I, as I, When I was head of current, like, it took me a good two years to really know. Learn how to do that job in a lot of ways. But in one of them, of like, just like, yeah, that person got really pissed off at me today.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

But they're also likely with most of the decisions I made, they're not going to remember them in a year. You know what I mean? Like, that's, that's the thing that you encounter with a lot of people is like, every. Everything is the most important thing, and it's just not.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

You get to a point where you're like 95% of these decisions are what I call disposable. And I don't mean that in an insulting way, but I mean it in the idea of, like, you're barely going to remember it. And it's not a big, big. It's not a big fork in the road, but there are. And that also helps you where it's like, there are big forks in the room.

[Will Friedel]

Right. It'll help you. Help you differentiate between the two.

[Danielle Fishel]

And. And then you have to stop down and go, okay, we need to really think about this, because if you make the wrong call here, we're going to have another meeting in a month or two, and you're really not going to like it, or we're going to have another decision to make and you're really not going like it. And if at all possible, let's look at what. Let's look at common mistakes and that have happened in the past and see if we can put them into this category. Because that's what I would do, a lot of which I would be like, let's just not make. Keep making the same mistake over and over and over. Like, let's not just change something for the sake of changing it, because if that we're going to do that, then we're going to be back here again. So most of those people could do it, but they. And they also kind of knew, like, they knew what they were really, really good at, and they also knew what they weren't good at.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And they might not admit it, but they're. They're admitting it would be like, you take care of it, you know, like. And that's. That's not going. I don't want to do it. Like, I want you to do it because I don't want to do it.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And. Or in a lot of cases, by the way, that's delivering bad news. A lot of very, very successful people got that way because they didn't like delivering bad news. And so someone else got to do it. And I was on the. The delivering bad news part of it a lot. But, you know, I just kind of. Most people realize, you know, it's. It's at that point, if you're delivering really bad news, like if you're telling someone their show is canceled, very rarely is it a surprise. Right. And it's disappointing. It's really disappointing when it shows on the bubble and.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And just go, look, I'm just. Sorry. But, you know, development was a lot stronger than we anticipated or just didn't go your way.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

But, you know, most people that I had to deliver the information to, I got yelled at a couple of times, but most people were very. Were understanding.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So there's, There's. It's hard to be a really good showrunner. There's. I mean, someone said to me early on in my career, there's a lot of ways to run a show poorly.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

There's not that many ways to run a show. Well.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And it's not a coincidence that there are certain people, you know, even in this new world, whether It's Zoom or eight or 10 episodes, a lot of the fundamentals of really Good showrunning to me are completely the same. Say.

[Will Friedel]

Well, finally looking back on your time almost 30 years ago now on Boy Meets World, before all of these big executive jobs came your way, did you ever think people would still be talking about Boy meets world in 30 years?

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, I would say it's no and yes, no, because whoever thinks anything they do is going to be that, that seminal that people are going to talk about it. But I do feel like there's a, there's a warmth to this show and there's kind of like a, in a weird way, a wish fulfillment of like a world to live in in this show that I think people kind of, you know, don't lose sight of. I mean, I found it very interesting when I used, when I speak at colleges because I do it periodically for friends and I don't come in there talking about boy, me as well, but every time someone will raise their hand and ask me a question about it. So I just, I feel like there's, and you guys doing this, I think also is rightfully kind of like reigniting interest in the show. And so it's about the themes of what this, of what the show stands for, for. And I, I. So in that point, given where we are now, I'm not surprised at all when I watch my, what my daughter's watching. Most of the half hours that my daughter's watching are, you know, would never have existed if it wasn't for tgif. So in that sense, I'm not, I'm not surprised at all. And I think there's also kind of a sense of, to be able to kind of see where these characters grew, how they grew up and how you guys, you know, are living your lives. That's also something where the nostalgia element of that to me now feels irresistible.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah. Well, David, we hope you'll come back and join us for season seven. When we get to one of your season seven interviews or episodes. We'd love to have you back to go over it, talk about the episode. We hope you'll join us again. Thank you so much for being here with us and spending your valuable time with us. It's really, you've been, you've enlightened us so much on what the process was and we appreciate you so much. So thank you.

[Danielle Fishel]

I hope I made some sense.

[Will Friedel]

Really did.

[Danielle Fishel]

Thank you guys.

[David Brownfield]

It was a pleasure.

[Will Friedel]

Thank you. We look forward to doing it again. Bye.

[David Brownfield]

Bye.

[Danielle Fishel]

Bye.

[Michael Jacobs]

As a wealth of knowledge, I mean.

[Will Friedel]

The amount of stuff he knows, I.

[Michael Jacobs]

Know I would like love like he should. I mean, he could teach probably the best college course on television production and like how to, how to run a show because he's seen it from both sides. Like that is.

[Will Friedel]

Well, we didn't talk about it on both sides. We didn't get to talk about it on, in the podcast. But he has for. He's got consultation services with a company called Stage 32 and it's for people looking to make TV from end to end, meaning developing an idea, pitching it, learning the process of presentation and production. I mean, truly, I know we got a good.

[David Brownfield]

Another great resource. We have like, we have access to some of the greatest resources in all of television and we've got to use them to put our show together.

[Michael Jacobs]

Yeah, it's really interesting. You know, like in a, you know, it's, it's gonna sound like kind of an I'm being dismissive or insulting, but he has a dispassion about him that is very cool to see.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Michael Jacobs]

Because I feel like, you know, a showrunners or creatives are usually their energy and passionate and that actually can be off putting and not conducive to a calm running show. And he clearly just has like been through it enough to know to like, he can pull it back. He can just, you know, even him.

[Will Friedel]

Saying that one of his best when he's training people don't fall in love with your shows.

[Michael Jacobs]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Be open.

[David Brownfield]

It's great, man. All right, so somebody else we gotta put on the list to help us with our show.

[Will Friedel]

Thank you all for joining us for this episode of Pod Meets World. As always, you can follow us on Instagram. Pod Meets World Show. You can send us your emails. Pod meets worldshowmail.com and we've got merch.

[David Brownfield]

In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups, the police who investigate crimes and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders. This is their merch. Dung.

[Danielle Fishel]

Dung.

[Will Friedel]

He says his brain's just insane. Pod meets world show.com writer. Send us out.

[Danielle Fishel]

Out.

[Michael Jacobs]

We love you all. Pod dismissed.

[Will Friedel]

Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fishel, Will Friedel and Ryder Strong, executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman, executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor Tara Sudbaksh, producer Matty Moore, engineer and Boy Meets World super fan Easton Allen. Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. Follow us on Instagram at Pot Meets World show or email [e-mail] hey, parents, quick question When's the last time you won snack time? Yesterday I packed a granola bar so old Adler asked if it was a dinosaur fossil. So it's been a while. And that's why Mott's no Sugar added Applesauce pouches are perfect to keep on hand. Real apples, no added sugar and the pouch? It's snack time's mvp. Minimal mess, Maximum peace. It's even got vitamin C. Kids love it. Parents don't mess it up. Win win Mottz. Real apples make real good applesauce. Learn [e-mail] look, if multitasking were an Olympic sport, I would have a gold medal. And then I probably misplace it while making lunch for my two hungry boys. But lucky for me, I have a Target Circle360 membership and I can get at same day delivery with no price markups at Target and lots of other local stores with Shipt excluding select alcohol retailers and items. Terms apply.

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[Danielle Fishel]

This is an iHeart podcast.