Joe King of The Fray

Summary

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Pod Meets World – "Joe King of The Fray"

Date: May 13, 2026
Host: Danielle Fishel
Guest: Joe King (vocalist & guitarist of The Fray)
Summary prepared for: Pod Meets World listeners

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Danielle Fishel sits down with Joe King, co-founder, vocalist, and guitarist for The Fray, for her "Teen Beat" segment—a series focused on the formative, sometimes awkward teenage years of notable guests. Joe reflects on his upbringing in Denver, a church-centered family dynamic, the journey from church music to multi-platinum success, and the ups and downs of navigating both adolescence and the music industry. The conversation is candid, warm, and peppered with both humor and heartfelt reflection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Life in Denver, Colorado (06:54–09:11)

• Denver’s Transformation: Joe describes Denver’s growth from a sports-centric city to a thriving arts and music scene, noting Red Rocks as a legendary venue every Denver artist dreams of playing.

  • Quote: “Denverites love going to see live music… it was always our dream to play Red Rocks.” (07:56)

• Notable Denver Alumni: Mentions other key bands from the city: Big Head Todd, 303, Flowbots, Nathaniel Rateliff, The Lumineers.

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Family & Church Upbringing (09:11–14:21)

• Pastor’s Kid: Joe’s father was a pastor, his mother a nurse and main breadwinner. Their large family struggled financially, instilling a sense of responsibility and frugality.

• Early Work Ethic: Joe and his brother delivered newspapers before school and contributed earnings towards essentials like cleats for sports.

  • Quote: “I remember having a newspaper route in the second grade…delivering papers in the morning. And you make a little money, and that would help pay for cleats and bags.” (11:09)

• Church Music’s Imprint: Joe credits old church hymns for exposing him to universal melodies and lyrics, shaping his songwriting foundation.

• Personal Struggles: He shares how the expectations of being a pastor’s kid left him unable to be himself, leading to rebellious teen years, hanging with a rough crowd—but with the unique trait of not getting caught.

  • Quote: “What I got good at was not getting caught.” (13:20)

• Learning the Value of Money: Working from a young age gave him appreciation for small luxuries and disciplined his choices.

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Musical Awakening and First Bands (20:40–26:45)

• High School Bands: Joe started his first band in ninth grade, heavily influenced by Nirvana after a transcendent moment hearing “Smells Like Teen Spirit.”

  • Quote: “I started to shake, vibrate, and my heart rate was racing... I just started writing songs.” (21:47)

• Songwriting Spark: His aunt gifted him a guitar, a pivotal gesture that set his future in motion. Joe now pays it forward by encouraging young people in schools to pick up instruments.

  • Quote: “You don’t know in life until you try...if you don’t try, you'll definitely never know.” (24:56)

• Secret Musical Influences: Despite a church background, Joe’s junior high years were soundtracked by West Coast rap—NWA, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg’s “Doggystyle”.

  • Quote: “They had no idea that B*tches Ain’t Shit was my go-to song before math class.” (27:12)

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From ‘Christian Band’ Misconceptions to Authenticity (29:23–34:01)

• Not a Christian Band: Fights the misconception that The Fray was ever intended as a Christian rock band; they wanted to write “songs for everyone” and explore questioning, not preach answers.

  • Quote: “We just had more questions than we had answers.” (30:43)
  • Anecdote: Early Christian label interest fizzled when they realized The Fray didn’t meet “Jesus per minute” (JPM) lyrical quotas.

• Family Concerns: Joe’s parents struggled to accept his move away from church music, finding his questioning lyrics unsettling.

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Meeting Isaac Slade & The Fray’s Formation (34:11–40:10)

• Competing Bands: Joe and Isaac Slade (The Fray’s co-founder) were in rival high school bands but reconnected years later at a music store, sparking an immediate creative partnership.

  • Quote: “Did we just fall in love?... This just happened.” (36:58)

• Grassroots Hustle: Early gig promotion meant working local angles—flyers, burning CDs, direct outreach to venues—offering to bring friends as “audience” to nab opening slots.

  • Quote: “I was hounding every venue… just like, hey, on the 19th, you have such and such coming in. Is there an opener? We’ll open. We’ll do it.” (39:03)

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The MySpace Era & Early Personal Stories (40:10–41:28)

• Top Eight: Playful reminiscing about MySpace social ranking (first kisses, forgotten exes).
• Genre Labels: Joe laughs off being called pop-punk, feeling The Fray never fit any single genre neatly.
  • Quote: “If anything, I feel like we always just never belong in a category…” (41:55)

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Breakthrough Success & “Grey’s Anatomy” (46:37–53:04)

• Radio Breakout: “Over My Head” first caught fire in Denver local radio, with the band hearing their song played for the first time together in a minivan at Joe’s parents’ house.

  • Quote: “When it came on… That minivan door came open and we jumped out in the grass and just started to dance.” (48:03)

• The Music Industry Frenzy: Rapid label interest, networking advice-swaps with Ryan Tedder (OneRepublic), apprehension about getting a fair deal, and awareness of industry pitfalls.

  • Quote: “It was an exciting time, but also very scary because you don’t know who to trust.” (49:15)

• Grey’s Anatomy Sync: “How to Save a Life” was licensed via email—a huge exposure. Joe stresses the band had already earned a fanbase, so the sync built on authentic momentum.

  • Quote: “After How to Save a Life aired, my grandmother called me and she was like, Joey, oh, I heard your song on Grey’s Anatomy.” (50:26)
  • Quote: “At that time too… it was a sellout to license your song. Five years later, they reverse course… because it’s like, come on… we gotta eat, you know?” (52:11)

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Revisiting the Past, Longevity & Touring (57:30–61:46)

• Playing Old Songs: Revisiting “How to Save a Life” for the 20th anniversary tour didn’t influence new songwriting; instead, Joe stresses writing “what’s true” now.

  • Quote: “All I have control of is, is this something I love? Is this something we love as a band?” (57:47)
  • Quote: “There’s more stars in the sky, you know… and they're all there in our little spot.” (58:50)

• Difference in Touring Mindset: Joe contrasts his approach to touring as a young man with that of today—more focus on health, rest, and gratitude for fans.

  • Quote: “I’m certainly not worried about the same things… More worried about, oh I shouldn’t drink that, I shouldn’t eat that before the show… If I want longevity, if I want to do this into my 70s, I want to sing these songs for the rest of my life.” (59:50)
  • Quote: “Fans spend their money, their time… I want to give them our best. That just means making decisions differently.” (60:34)

• Upcoming Summer of Light Tour: Joe’s excited to tour with Dashboard Confessional, valuing pre-tour hangs for real connections, since the road offers little downtime.

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Notable, Lighter Moments

• Jesus Per Minute (JPM): A tongue-in-cheek Christian label metric for number of “Jesus” references per song.
• First Kiss Story: Joe’s first crush, Brittany Baxter—a sweet and very “teen beat” personal moment.
• Flyer & CD Promotion Tactics: “Print a flyer, go to Kinkos, post them everywhere, even list your phone number!” (38:01)
• Category Defiance: Enjoyment in seeing The Fray categorized everywhere from pop to pop-punk to rock and the confusion at The Grammys.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Denverites love going to see live music… it was always our dream to play Red Rocks.” (07:56)
• “I was the youngest of five kids. Pastors don't make a lot of money… My mom was really the breadwinner. She was a nurse.” (10:33)
• “What I got good at was not getting caught.” (13:20)
• “You don’t know in life until you try...if you don’t try, you’ll definitely never know.” (24:56)
• “They had no idea that Btches Ain’t Shit was my go-to song before math class.”* (27:12)
• “We just had more questions than we had answers.” (30:43)
• “Did we just fall in love?... This just happened.” (36:58)
• “I was hounding every venue… hey, is there an opener? We'll do it.” (39:03)
• “All I have control of is, is this something I love? Is this something we love as a band?” (57:47)
• “If I want to do this into my 70s, I want to sing these songs for the rest of my life.” (60:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Denver Upbringing & Red Rocks: 06:54–09:11
• Family, Finances & Church: 09:11–14:21
• Musical Awakening & Early Bands: 20:40–26:45
• Not a Christian Band: 29:23–34:01
• The Fray’s Formation: 34:11–40:10
• Breakout on Radio & Grey’s Anatomy: 46:37–53:04
• Reflection on Longevity & Touring: 57:30–61:46

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Tone & Language

The episode is marked by Danielle Fishel’s nostalgic, conversational style and Joe King’s openness, humility, and humor. The dialogue is rich in memories and lessons, but never takes itself too seriously, staying true to the “awkward teen” theme.

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For Further Listening

• Catch Joe King’s bonus companion episode on the “Teen Beat” podcast feed (teased at 62:05).
• Listen to The Fray’s new album, A Light That Waits, and check tour dates at thefray.com.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Danielle Fishel]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Joe King]

Guaranteed Human Amazon Health AI presents painful

[Danielle Fishel]

thoughts why did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic sores in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.

[Joe King]

Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prom and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc, SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures this

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[Joe King]

Want to drive CarMax?

[Danielle Fishel]

Give me money for cigarettes.

[Joe King]

I'll never leave your cookie bed. I stay the night and one night we can Two or three years the

[Danielle Fishel]

kids are not all right, but that's

[Joe King]

okay cause no one here is hello.

[Danielle Fishel]

It is time for another podcast episode. So let's teen the beat around. Nope. I'm embarrassed I even tried that one. Okay, back to the drawing board. It's Danielle Fishel and this is Teen Beat, a podcast where I interview interesting people about their teenage years, a time where they were possibly a little less interesting. I'm looking to connect with these celebrities and get the awkward truth, the embarrassing underbelly of life before for the fame when pimples and getting your driver's license were your biggest concerns. And yes, face all these challenges while beamed to millions of households as the female lead on a beloved family sitcom. That was my life. So I see it like this. I gave you my childhood. It's time we hear yours. And my guest this week turned his Denver, Colorado church upbringing playing in bands with classmates into a multi platinum Grammy nominated career with songs that can bring you right back to an ex moment in your life with just a few opening notes. His band's debut album, 2005's how to Save a Life went quadruple platinum and was part of a movement that bridged the gap for spiritually Christian rock music to enter the mainstream, a feat once considered totally impossible. Their biggest hit, the title track off the album how to Save a Life, became an all out aughts banger when it was first featured on both an episode of Grey's Anatomy, then as the music for its upcoming season premiere promo, a massive musical achievement back when TV meant something. The song peaked at number three on the charts and tied Carlos Santana's Smooth as the seventh longest charting single at the time with 58 consecutive weeks. They've survived rotating members, hiatus, exhaustion, numerous stages of the music industry and I bet some sort of natural disaster. So to have celebrated the 20th anniversary of that first record with an international tour in 2025, and now a brand new album, a Light that Waits, available to stream everywhere. But even with all that musical success, I feel like behind the instrument and emotional lyrics, there could just be an awkward teen. Ready to chat. And so this week, I'm excited to welcome to the newest episode of Teen Beat, vocalist and guitarist of the fray, Joe King.

[Joe King]

Hello. Hello. Thank you for having me.

[Danielle Fishel]

Thank you so much for being here. Listen, when iheart said to me that there was even the possibility that I could interview you, I was like, drop everything, clear my schedule, please make it happen.

[Joe King]

Did they say, he's very awkward so this will work?

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, they did not.

[Joe King]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

And so I've had a couple of minutes to chat with you. You don't strike me as awkward.

[Joe King]

Oh, I lean into it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Do you embrace the awkward?

[Joe King]

Absolutely. I think actually it was beautifully written. By the way, that introduction. Thank you. That was wonder.

[Danielle Fishel]

You are deserving of. Isn't it cool to hear your accomplishments, like, read back to you?

[Joe King]

I just learned things too, like, oh, we did survive natural disasters. Am I exhausted still?

[Danielle Fishel]

No. I threw in the exhaustion because I feel like at least at my age, it's just everyone's a little exhausted, right?

[Joe King]

Yeah. So I promise to be awkward today, and let's just take it where it goes.

[Danielle Fishel]

I love it. Let's first start with Denver.

[Joe King]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

You were born and raised in Colorado as a California native. We were told that everyone who lives there was either a major hippie or Dikembe Mutombo. So where did you fall on that scale?

[Joe King]

Well, Denver, I mean, it's changed so much. Right. Since I was a little one. And, you know, it was just more of a sports town for a while growing up. I mean, it was like if you weren't a Broncos fan, you were gonna have to run from people. So you needed to rep the Broncos, which I still do proudly.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay, good.

[Joe King]

It then it became very, like, artist friendly town in, like, more of a, like a music forward town. Because I think, because first off, the people love to go see music. Like, Denverites, like, love going to see live music, coupled with the fact that, like, some of the best venues in the world are there. I mean, I don't know if you've been to Red Rocks.

[Danielle Fishel]

I have not been there.

[Joe King]

You have to go see a show at Red Rocks.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

Everyone listening to this go see should go, like, look up your favorite artist and go see a show at Red Rocks. It's. It's legendary. It's been around. It was a Natural amphitheater. It was basically used for church services before amplification. So they would sing.

[Danielle Fishel]

I've heard the Grateful Dead. Like I've heard Grateful Dead recordings there.

[Joe King]

Oh yeah, the Beatles have played there. Johnny Cash. I mean the history's on the walls backstage. So anyway, the venues in Denver provide just for live music and people love going and so being an artist from there, I mean it was always our dream to play Red Rocks, you know, but ye. We started there and you know, like I said, Denver became more of a music town. And then you've seen like over the years you've seen artists come out of Denver every couple years. It was like, well, Big Head Todd was early the samples and then, then we came on, on the scene there. And then from that point it was like there's a bank. A group called 303 Flowbots. I don't know if you remember. Yeah, they were Denver and then Nathaniel Rayliff and. And then, you know, Lumineers guys live there. So it's like, it's just a beautiful scene. It's a beautiful place to be as an artist because there's hometown pride.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's really great. Your dad was a pastor?

[Joe King]

He was.

[Danielle Fishel]

So did you grow up in church music? Were either of your parents musical?

[Joe King]

They weren't musical. There was always church music around and yes, that was. I was exposed to early as a kid and honestly some of those old hymns and old praise songs are gorgeous, like heart wrenchingly gorgeous and, and melodically and even lyrically are very universal and you know, so that I think there's. There's also like I've met so many artists along the way that, that have come up in the church, you know, grew up in the church and learned how to, you know, learned how to play church songs and. Yeah, and there's something there with it. I don't know what it is in the water of. Of these songs. It maybe like there's a pop sens in. In church songs because if you think about it like they need to be songs that people can sing right away. Yeah, right. And they need to be lyrics that people can, you know, connect to and emotionally like attach to. So I don't know, there was, there was elements there that maybe was like preparing me for. For songwriting in general. But yeah, that was, that was some of my background in. In the church.

[Danielle Fishel]

What was it like having a pastor for a father as a kid?

[Joe King]

That's been a. That's been a journey to work through that. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean there's you know, it's. I couldn't, you know, couldn't be myself. I loved. I loved my childhood. Don't get me wrong. I do. Like, I'm so. I was so proud. I'm so proud of my dad and my mom for how they navigated life. I mean, I was the youngest of five kids.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow.

[Joe King]

You know, pastors don't make a lot of money.

[Danielle Fishel]

No. They're definitely not doing it because they want to make a bunch of bank.

[Joe King]

You're not. You're there because you're hard, you know, and you feel a greater purpose. So I knew that there was a greater purpose there.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, but it was. It was a struggle for the family to. To. To pay the bills.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

My mom was really the. The breadwinner. She was a nurse. So, you know, it ended up teaching me a lot. First off, because, you know, we had to contribute early, like, to helping pay for gear or sports stuff. So I remember having a newspaper out in the second grade, and my brother and I would go out before school. We had it for my entire elementary, from second to sixth grade, delivering papers in the morning. And you make a little money, and that would help pay for cleats and bags. So. Yeah. The financial aspect was a struggle, and I saw that as I. As I got older in my dad and taking a toll on him that he was giving his life to. To help people, but yet his family was. Was struggling.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

So. And outside of that, you know, being raised in the church. Yeah. Like I said, I didn't feel comfortable in my own skin. Yeah. Because I felt like I had to be, you know, maybe like a. A version that, like, would make my parents proud or make God proud.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. And held to a higher standard, maybe also by everyone in the community.

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Because you're a reflection of him.

[Joe King]

Right. So then I went to the dark side, and there were years.

[Danielle Fishel]

You rebelled.

[Joe King]

I. I did. I became good at. At it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

And, you know, through junior high years, early high school was in a lot of trouble.

[Danielle Fishel]

Really?

[Joe King]

Yeah. And it just was something in me.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

I needed. I don't know if it was the adrenaline, but doing things that I knew I wasn't supposed to do gave me this, like this, like this energy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And I was surrounded by friends that were wanting to do the same thing.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

But what I got good at was not getting caught.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. See, that's where you and I are so different. I. I got caught all the time.

[Joe King]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Anytime I tried anything, I was immediately caught. I was terrible at getting away with Anything.

[Joe King]

Did they just see it on your face?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, both see it on my face. And also, my mom was just, like, very in tune. You said you were the youngest of five. So 1. The babies of the family are always reckless.

[Joe King]

I think you're right for sure.

[Danielle Fishel]

They're just like, what do I have to lose? I've got too many parents. Cause all your siblings feel like adults to you, too. And so, yeah, I. I think the first real bad thing I ever did was smoke a cigarette. And I think I didn't even bother to try to not smell like it. My mom just knew right away. Like, I can smell you. You smell like smoke. Like, I was just bad at getting away with things, so I'm envious that you knew how to hide.

[Joe King]

I don't know if it's the youngest thing, and I certainly had to work on that in my adult life. Like, ooh, it's actually not good to hide.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to be great at that.

[Joe King]

Don't want to be good at that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Only when you're a kid does it pay off.

[Joe King]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

And only sometimes.

[Joe King]

And it did, literally. Because y. Speaking of cigarettes, there were grocery stores that I would go to, and in the aisles, they still had chewing tobacco, not behind the counter.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow. Okay. Yeah.

[Joe King]

And so I wore big jackets and would slip those big packages in my jacket and walk out and then sell them.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Making a profit. You were an entrepreneur.

[Joe King]

I mean, I was trying to contribute to the family.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly. Did it also make you working from the time you were in second grade and saying it was going to things like cleats? Did it make you more discerning about what you wanted to try? Like, what you. What was like, I. You wanted to play soccer or baseball? Because you're like, I have. This is my money. I'm working hard for this.

[Joe King]

There is something to it. Cause I didn't take it for granted. I knew that. Like, okay, these cleats, these Copa adidas. Copas that I just bought with, like, kangaroo leather.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

Like, I earn those, and I want to take care of those. And I'm going to polish them.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And I'm going to keep them clean. And I was proud of those cleaves.

[Danielle Fishel]

So should be.

[Joe King]

There's something. There's something in that, you know, that It. It taught me to appreciation.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Of. Of things. And. And also, maybe it's the generation, too. You know, I remember going with my mom to the grocery store. We. She would save coupons.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

We'd have. She'd have, like, every Week she'd have a stack of coupons that she'd cut out from mailers from magazine, you know, all this stuff. So I'd go with her and it was my task to go with her to the grocery store and find these

[Danielle Fishel]

items that were in the coupons. Yeah, that's what we're buying this week. Cause we've got a coupon for it, right? Yeah.

[Joe King]

And then, you know, my reward was this chocolate pie at the end of it, which were like those like crusted. I don't like, almost calzone esque.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about.

[Joe King]

Like an apple pie, only 25 cents.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, at the time. And like I was so excited to get that chocolate pie.

[Danielle Fishel]

Aw, that's so cute. I love that. One of my chores growing up was I had to cook dinner with my mom every night. So I had a stay. My mom was a stay at home mom. And so she cleaned the house every day, she made dinner every night, and I would come home from school and have to clean up the dog poop in the backyard, everyone's favorite chore, and then come in, get cleaned up. And then time to help my mom make dinner. And at the time I remember thinking, oh, why do I have to help make dinner? And in hindsight, it's some of my favorite memories with my mom. Because all we would do, just talk the whole time, cut the vegetables, boil the water, and then just share about our days. And it's probably exactly how she knew the minute I did anything wrong. Then as a teenager, because she had been locked in with me every night while we cooked, she just knew me too well, right?

[Joe King]

Amazon Health AI presents painful thoughts.

[Danielle Fishel]

Why did I search the Internet for answers to my cold sore problem? Now I'm stuck down a rabbit hole filled with images of alarmingly graphic source in various stages of ooze. I can clear my search history, but I can never unsee that.

[Joe King]

Don't go down the rabbit hole. Amazon Health AI gets you the right care fast. Healthcare just got less painful.

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[Bowen Yang]

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[Danielle Fishel]

Was your dad a fan of your music? Is your dad a fan of your music?

[Joe King]

You know that was an interesting process journey there too. You know because I through high school I started to like lead the the Praise band. You know, at, at my school and at church. My dad stopped pastoring when I was in eighth grade.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

And. And just transitioned into a different point in life. He, honestly, he got burned out from what I, what I talked about. He just could not, you know, couldn't deal with not providing anymore for, for the fam. So he stepped away, pivoted. But, you know, the church was always, you know, important still. But anyway, like, I, Yeah, I started playing church songs and then I wanted to start a band, you know. And so in ninth grade, I started my first band.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow.

[Joe King]

Ninth grade, we were, we were. Well, it was after I heard there was a band called Nirvana.

[Danielle Fishel]

Of course you may have heard of them.

[Joe King]

Yeah. You may have heard. Because I had older siblings, I was exposed to, you know, music.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

At a younger age. And I loved like what they were listening to. And I remember my brother having his friends over and they put on Nevermind, Smells Like Teen Spirit. It was in the wintertime and I heard this song and I started to shake, vibrate, and my heart rate was racing and I couldn't help myself. And after that song ended, I remember running upstairs in my underwear and immediately running out into the backyard, which was covered with about 6 inches of snow and just dove in the snow.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And rolled around.

[Danielle Fishel]

I don't know why, I just.

[Joe King]

What am I doing?

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

But I'm feeling something.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And I didn't put it together at that point, but I, at that it just lit something in me. They're like, I wanna, I wanna be in a band. I wanna start a band. And so it was within a year, so ninth grade, so I started my first band. Started writing songs.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Started playing songs anywhere, you know, I could, we could. As a band. It was like, you know, our, our, you know, friend's party at their mom's house or whatever.

[Danielle Fishel]

And how did you know how to start writing songs? Like, what was that process for you? Because, like, I don't know the first thing about writing a song.

[Joe King]

Honestly, I didn't, I didn't know I was a songwriter until my aunt gave me a guitar. And that was in the eighth grade, shortly after Nirvana. First song I learned was Come as yous Are. Wow. But once she gave me the guitar, I couldn't stop. I couldn't put it down. And it just, I just started writing. Writing, you know, learned. Learned Nirvana. And then I just started writing songs. So it just wasn't like a thought out thing.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

But also it's interesting because I didn't know that I was That I was supposed to do that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

It just, it's interesting when I, when I look back, even talking about it now that like it took someone giving me an instrument.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, or, or like providing something, you know, in life that you weren't expecting.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And, and it changes the course of your life.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was it a new guitar? Was it one of her guitars?

[Joe King]

It was just, it was a, it was a, it was called a Franciscan. Just a acoustic guitar, like not expensive, like just kind of a cheap one.

[Danielle Fishel]

Have you ever asked her what made her think like, you know, what you mean?

[Joe King]

I have thanked her a thousand times and she is such a wonderful light to this day and in my life. And she feels like this sense of like, you know, pride too and shared story that like she influenced, you know, me becoming a musician by giving me an instrument. And that's also something that like, you know, I've wanted to help when I can. Like I went back to my middle school, for instance, you know, know a few years back and tried to like, you know, talk, talk to the kids about music. Talked about like, you know, instruments and just like getting an instrument in kids hands, like give them the opportunity to like pick up something.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

And, and play just to see. Because like you don't know in life until you try, you know, and like if you don't try, you'll definitely never know.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

So yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was a lucky gift that she gave me.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's great. I feel such a sense of responsibility. I have two boys, I have a seven year old and an almost five year old. And I realized for my mom, my mom growing up loved makeup. And had she not been the child of two immigrant parents who thought that corporate America was where you needed to be if you were gonna be anything in this life, you needed to be in corporate America. The idea, if she had said she wanted to be a makeup artist would have been so immediately shut down, but she literally didn't even know that was an option. And like the sense of responsibility when you realize that kids only know what their options are if you kind of reveal it to them. Like, you know, providing opportunity to say, hey, you want to play this? You want to see if this is interesting to you? Like, thank God your aunt thought that for you. And it look what came pouring out of you after. It's pretty amazing.

[Joe King]

It's so true. So. And it does. It takes other people. I think you can't see yourself clearly.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, right.

[Joe King]

Like we're kind of blinded to who we. Who we who we are in some ways, and then others can see it before you can. And, like. And they either recognize it or they tell you or they give you.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And it changes your life.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Because then you see yourself clearly.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Oh, I am a musician.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, right.

[Joe King]

I just needed this guitar.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. Yes. Were you ever sneaking CDs around? Was there any music your parents did not want you to listen to that you had to listen to?

[Joe King]

So, yes, I was around church music. That doesn't mean I was listening to church music. They had no idea what I was listening to.

[Danielle Fishel]

What were you listening to?

[Joe King]

Junior high years was all west coast rap.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, the best.

[Joe King]

Yeah. That's what me and friends were listening to. That was like nwa. That was Dre, that era. And it was on my Walkman all the time.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep. Yep. And.

[Joe King]

And loved it. So they had no idea that Bitches Ain't Shit was my go to song before math class.

[Danielle Fishel]

Don't worry. They don't listen to this podcast, so you're good. My favorite album was Doggy Style, Snoop Dogg's Doggy Style. And I had a family reunion in San Luis Obispo, and it was the first year I started driving, so it was like 1997, and I was in my Toyota 4Runner, and I had my windows down. I just blasting that music. And I look back in hindsight, and I think, yeah, I can understand why my parents were like, oh, is this. This is what you want to listen to? But, boy, it was the best of the best. Just so much fun, you know? The Fray and Boy Meets World do share a source of inspiration.

[Joe King]

What do we got?

[Danielle Fishel]

Counting Crows.

[Joe King]

Ooh. I mean, how great? And, like, still great.

[Danielle Fishel]

So great.

[Joe King]

I am a fan of what any band that's doing it, to be honest. And longevity in a band is so difficult to stay, to keep creating, to keep getting through all this that you said, the natural disasters, the personal disasters, the collective disasters, egos. So it's just. It's multiple marriages in one and navigating. That is. That's why all brands break up, change, or evolve, you know, and we did all three of those things.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Nyx Underwear Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, adapting is one of the hardest things that an entity can do, especially while maintaining integrity. Because how do you maintain integrity in an ever changing world and trying to find where, like you said, we don't necessarily see ourselves. So even then, as a band or an artist, to see how your artistry has its own place in an ever changing landscape, it's a lot. So you're right. Anytime a band can do it and do it successfully for decades. They deserve credit 100%. Growing up in the church, what were your thoughts on Christian rock?

[Joe King]

So that's probably one of the bigger misconceptions of our band is that we. We were not a Christian band. That was never the intention.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

In fact, we were very intentional about not being a Christian band because. Because it was. You know, it was. First off, when I. When I was writing these songs, I would. Early on, I would try them at church, and they did not work.

[Danielle Fishel]

They weren't landing. You're like, this is how I know I got a good look.

[Joe King]

I was like, why don't they get it? Why don't they question anything? You know, like, am I the only one that's questioning this? Like, what's going on? And I. I just realized that at that time, questioning wasn't really allowed.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And I needed my art to be free and my songs to be. For everyone and not to have an answer.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And so I realized I want to. I want to write these songs. We want to. We want to start this band, and we want this music to be real and not the church music isn't real. I'm not saying that Christian rock isn't real. That's. That's. That's true. And it serves a purpose.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

You know, for me and for us, we just had more questions.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

Than we had answers. So those early records were all about questions. And in a way, I mean, if you look at music in general, or, you know, rock, papara, whatever, there's a sense of rebellion. And for us, our rebellion was, we're not in the church doing this. If the church wants to come, they can come to the bar and see us play.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

You know. Cause we want everybody to be able to see this. And that was hard for my parents at first. Cause I think that they thought maybe I'd be the one leading church service for 40 years, playing songs every Sunday. And when they heard some of those early songs about, you know, questions, it's a little uncomfortable.

[Danielle Fishel]

Scary. Yeah.

[Joe King]

Cause it kind of shakes up some things.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Shakes your foundation. Yeah.

[Joe King]

Yeah. So, yeah, it was, you know, so that is a misconception, a bit of the band. And that's okay. I mean, there's been other bands, the same type of thing. I mean, Katy Perry was, you know, started that way, and she evolved. And, you know, One Republic. They're good friends of mine, Ryan. You know, we've talked about it a bunch, and, you know, so even Kings of Leon, guys like those guys Came from, you know, a preacher. Preacher background. And, you know, you realize, like, okay, like, what do you. Who are you? What. What do you want to say?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

So, yeah, that was. That was a bit of the story, I think.

[Danielle Fishel]

I think hearing you talk about that was making me think like, the same way. So there's like the rock title, and then under the rock title, you get Christian rock over here. And then you get like, what you guys were doing. It's a little like Boy Meets. It's like a sitcom. You guys were like, we don't want to be a sitcom. You know, like, Christian rock has a moral, and it's wrapped up really nicely in 22 minutes.

[Joe King]

Well, there was a thing called JPMS. Have you ever heard of that?

[Danielle Fishel]

No.

[Joe King]

In the Christian scene at that time, if you were considered to be a Christian artist, you had to have a certain amount of Jesus per minute references.

[Danielle Fishel]

Jesus per minute. We had zero PCs, zero JPMs, mom.

[Joe King]

In fact, it was negative. It was like, we're questioning this goddamn in there. We negative 50 jpms. Yeah, but I remember, like, the first. Actually, it was interesting. The first label that came to check us out was a Christian label.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

And we were playing a show in Denver, and they. After the show, you know, we went out and hung for a bit. And then it was like a couple days later, they circle back and we were just curious. And the label was called Sparrow. And they circled back and they were like, you know, we're just. It's just not, you know, not our thing. And so, you know, we're gonna pass. And we were. That was interesting because if they would have offered something, it would have been hard to not look at it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, Right. Because you would have really been faced with like, do we throw in a couple jpms?

[Joe King]

Do we? Exactly.

[Danielle Fishel]

To get the deal.

[Joe King]

Just, just, just, you know, lowercase Js, little subtle Js.

[Danielle Fishel]

Just every now and then a J,

[Joe King]

you know, just a slight left J. Just to get that, you know, just to quit our jobs, you know?

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

So. But they passed. And that was interesting because we didn't have to make the decision at all. Yeah, it's like, see, yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna do better.

[Danielle Fishel]

We're gonna do better without you. So in high school, that's where you meet Isaac Slade, right?

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. And he is a co founder of the band.

[Joe King]

He is.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. And so what was. How did you. Were you guys friends right away?

[Joe King]

We had competing bands in high school.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, I need a competing band story.

[Joe King]

I mean, my band was Way better, of course. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they opened for us.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

They were more J's, right?

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

They had more J's.

[Danielle Fishel]

They were high on the jpl. Yeah.

[Joe King]

He was heading to J for sure. No, we were in competing bands, and I. But I, like, had so much respect for him. He was one grade younger, and in that era, it's like. That felt like a lot. Like a big difference.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. When you're 14 and someone's 13, you're like, oh, he's a kid.

[Joe King]

Yeah. So, you know, we were. We were friends, but not close. In high school and then, you know, out of high school, didn't talk for, you know, until I ran into him. Ran. It was a random day, but it was probably three and a half. Three and a half years. At four years out of high school, my band had naturally fallen apart, of course, because the drummer had to go to college.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And I had to work.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And. Yeah, exactly. And so I was just, like, trying to figure out, like, what am I gonna do? How, like, I want to play music? I don't know how I'm gonna do this. And I just was writing songs and knew I needed to somehow stay in it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And whatever that meant at the time was just keep writing and, you know, maybe, like, go to shows and talk to people. And so this. This specific day that absolutely changed my life was. I went. I was. Went to the Guitar Center. It was a music shop.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe King]

And it came out of a place of just curiosity. I was just going to look at instruments that day and just go hang around. Around.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And went in, played some guitars, and then saw Isaac walking around. I was like, dude, what's up, man?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Hello.

[Joe King]

Hadn't seen him for three and a half years. Whatever. Four years. He's like, hey. I was like, dude, what are you. What are you doing? Like, he's like, I'm just writing. I was like, me, too. Well, should we write? Do you want to write something? Like, should we hang out next week? He's like, sure.

[Danielle Fishel]

So, so cute that, like, three or four years after high school, you're like, you want to be friends?

[Joe King]

Yeah. And we, you know, we got. Got together the next week. He played a song, I played a song, and it was just like one of those, like, oh, yeah, you got that. Oh, let me show you something. Like, trying to impress each other, of course.

[Danielle Fishel]

Competing bands, man.

[Joe King]

For sure. And then we just, you know, we just started writing, and it was fire. It was just one of those, like, did we just fall in love?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. This was special.

[Joe King]

Did just. This just happened.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow.

[Joe King]

And it was then, you know, a day we were just like, let's start. Let's start this band. Let's. Let's do this. And we just started writing, like, constantly.

[Danielle Fishel]

And when do you start performing?

[Joe King]

We started playing shows shortly after that. You know, it was like, backyards, graduation parties, like, wherever we could play. We were not gonna play in the church.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right? That's the one place you're like, we're not gonna do there.

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Were your friends all supportive?

[Joe King]

Friends were. Yes, friends were supportive. I mean, we begged them to come out to any show we had. You know, that's what you. Like when you're a new band or a new rs, you need your friends.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. What was your marketing like, where. How were you getting, like, a graduation? How would you get to play that graduation?

[Joe King]

Okay. Marketing was print to flyer, you know, with your band name.

[Danielle Fishel]

Y.

[Joe King]

Like, photograph, like, go to. Go to Kinkos. Put together a little flyer thing with your. With your band, your photo. Make it all cool. Vibey emo.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Color.

[Joe King]

And just pass those around everywhere.

[Danielle Fishel]

Just everywhere you can.

[Joe King]

Everywhere. Put them up on, you know, on the. On the pole.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Put them on the park bench. Leave them at shows. Go to a show. Leave them on the merch desk at another band's show.

[Danielle Fishel]

And whose phone number was on there? Was it directly to one of them yours? Okay. Just. They just call you for sure.

[Joe King]

Yeah. Even on our early, like, EPs, we. So we'd burn, you know, we'd record two songs or whatever, three songs. We'd have these. We'd make. We'd make a thousand copies. Burn these CDs, put our little slip, you know, cover in. Put, you know, put our number on there. Pass those out. Just like, you know, pass them out. Try to sell them, you know, if you could, but just, like, pass them out. And then you'd get a call, you know, maybe like one person call, like, hey, I got a, you know, backyard party. If you want to come, I'll pay you 50 bucks.

[Danielle Fishel]

You know, you're a guest.

[Joe King]

Yeah, we're done. We're in. Okay. Okay. We'll bring 50 people if you want.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. So fun.

[Joe King]

And then. And then it became a little more, like, strategic. Like, all right, I'm going to call every venue when I'm look at, like, who's coming into town.

[Danielle Fishel]

Uhhuh.

[Joe King]

And if they don't have an opener listed, like, I will say I'll call them. I'll call the promoter. And I was hounding every venue In Denver, just like, hey, on the 19th, you have such and such coming in. Is there an opener?

[Danielle Fishel]

So smart.

[Joe King]

We'll open.

[Danielle Fishel]

We'll do it.

[Joe King]

We'll do it. I promise. We'll bring 50 people.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, we'll bring 50 people. We'll be great.

[Joe King]

And sure enough, that worked, you know, like, here and there. It worked.

[Danielle Fishel]

So smart. So smart to be like, I'm gonna shoot my shot because what's the worst thing they say? No.

[Joe King]

Right, Exactly. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay, so I already wasn't gonna do it until. Unless you asked. So, like, I'm gonna ask and then if you say yes, now I've got to get, so.

[Joe King]

Exactly. So we just kept writing songs. And by the way, you know, it's easier. It was easier in Denver to be a cover band, to play the bars and play the songs that people want to hear. The hard part was playing your songs.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

It was like, you know, listen, we weren't good and, you know, I don't know.

[Danielle Fishel]

You said it was fire.

[Joe King]

Well, to us it was.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. Okay.

[Joe King]

No one could see it yet.

[Danielle Fishel]

It was fire was bubbling.

[Joe King]

But we knew. I saw it in his eyes. He saw it in my eyes.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I was doing the math. And I feel like the fray must have been pretty dependent on MySpace in the early days. So who was in your top eight?

[Joe King]

Oh, I wanna. Can I hear your top eight? I'm curious.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, good question. Who was my top eight? My best friend, Jamie. We're still best friends. There were definitely some guys whose names I have forgotten.

[Joe King]

Yeah, we don't wanna mention them anyway. Yeah, yeah, same. I mean, there were some. There were some old girlfriends.

[Danielle Fishel]

Some girlfriends. Yeah.

[Joe King]

There was my first kiss. I. I, like, just kept trying and couldn't. Brittany Baxter.

[Danielle Fishel]

Britney Baxter.

[Joe King]

And she was just. She lived down the street, two blocks down in the greenhouse.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was she so cool?

[Joe King]

She was so cool. And I just tried for years, for years, like Britney and just see me now, just.

[Danielle Fishel]

So do you know what she's doing now?

[Joe King]

I don't. I have no idea.

[Danielle Fishel]

When was the last time you looked her up? A long time ago.

[Joe King]

Yeah, it was a while back.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was she married?

[Joe King]

She. She was, yeah. Yep. So I was like, okay, she's good. He's good. Yeah, yeah. She's happy. I'm good.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

But that, you know, everyone remembers that first. First kiss. So, yeah, she was. She was in the top eight.

[Nyx Underwear Advertiser]

Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Top eight. If you were to go back to it, probably still in the top eight. So while I was researching for this interview, I was sur. How many Times the Fray was referred to as pop punk.

[Joe King]

Interesting.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. I guess I just don't typically think of you as being grouped in with like the Warped Tour regulars of Fallout Boy or Panic at the Disco. Do you think of yourself as being pop punk?

[Joe King]

Whatever. Honestly. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Who cares? The label.

[Joe King]

Yeah, exactly. Like, however you want to pigeon us. Like, if anything, I feel like we always just never belong in. In a. In a category because it's like even, even in the pop category at the time when, when it was starting to work for us, you know, it's not like lyrics like bitterness are pop lyrics right. In a chorus.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And. And we didn't sound like what was happening on pop radio.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And we're from Denver and we're isolated there. And so we were. Were. It always felt like we didn't know where. The industry didn't know where to put us. Yeah, we were lucky to like yesterday we. Or a couple days ago we played the Grammy Museum and you know, honored to say that we lost four Grammys already. Hope we lose more.

[Danielle Fishel]

Keep losing those Grammys.

[Joe King]

But like, even the categories, they didn't know how to like put our song. Is this in the pop group performance? Is this rock? We're in rock categories. We're in the pop category. So, you know, we're just gonna do our thing.

[Danielle Fishel]

I feel like that's such a compliment.

[Joe King]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

To really be so special and unique and of such a quality sound that it's hard to find a thing that we can easily categorize you as. Like I look. I think that's just. That's such a compliment to you.

[Joe King]

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[Public Podcast Advertiser]

Can he tell I'm picking up prescription hemorrhoid cream?

[Joe King]

I'm probably standing weird. Why is he smiling?

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

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[Joe King]

I gotta quit my job. Next time avoid awkward conversations and get fast free delivery with Amazon Pharmacy Healthcare just got less painful.

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[Bowen Yang]

is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier Protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of prote, 160 calories, no added sugar and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting afterlife. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R protein.com.

[Danielle Fishel]

Do you remember where you were when you found out that Grey's Anatomy was going to use your song?

[Joe King]

I do. Well first it was. It was like as simple as an email. Like, you know, a request for the the license. Okay to Use the song how to Save a Life was not a single at that time. Our first single that actually changed our life and it was over my head. Yeah, I love that song because that one in, in Denver just blew up. Like I, I was like calling the radio stations. Like every, every time we had a new song, I would send them songs.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And beg them to play.

[Danielle Fishel]

Please play these.

[Joe King]

Yes. And we, we got. So we, you know, they turned down probably nine songs and then it was just another song that we had. And I sent it to the, the program director, director of all the stations, multiple. And then they were like, you know what, we're gonna play this on Sunday night. We got a local czar. We'll play it. We were so excited.

[Danielle Fishel]

Did you have a listening party?

[Joe King]

We knew it was between 6pm and 8pm so we all met up at I think my parents house and the stereo was broken and we had to climb in the minivan.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. To listen in the minivan and turn

[Joe King]

on the car and just turn on the radio. And we were all just waiting for that moment. And when it came on.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh wow.

[Joe King]

We were just sat there like giddy and it, it ended. And that minivan door came open and we jumped out in the grass and we're just starting to dance and we're like, oh, we just heard our song on the radio. Didn't know what was going to happen, you know, from that, of course. And literally the next morning they call the station called me and they were like, hey, like we got a lot of calls about that on this song. And so we're gonna put this into rotation. And I remember him saying, buckle up, buckle up. And I was like, okay. You mean in the minivan?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, I was last night from 6 to 8.

[Joe King]

I was, it was safe. There's airbags in there. So within four days, every label was calling my phone because, remember I put him on the cd.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, that's. Everyone had your number.

[Joe King]

You were all over. I was trying to be like manager guy. I was like, like, this is Joe from the Fray. Yeah. Who are you?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. Mask is gone.

[Joe King]

Yeah. Leo from what? Sony. What are you going to do for us, Leo?

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

You going to take us to dinner tonight?

[Joe King]

You going to fly us to New York? What are we doing?

[Danielle Fishel]

My stereo's broken at home. I could use a new stereo.

[Joe King]

Yeah, you got a Sony radio for me. So it became this frenzy of labels just reaching out and it was an exciting time, but also very scary because you don't know who to trust.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And so actually Ryan Tedder from One Republic was just a good friend at that point. And I was. And he. No one knew about One Republic either. And so him and I were like bouncing people off each other. Like, hey, do you know this guy from Epic? Or do you know this guy from Columbia?

[Danielle Fishel]

And are these people decent?

[Joe King]

For sure. Because you know, we know, like you hear about it, that it's a shady biz.

[Danielle Fishel]

Absolutely.

[Joe King]

And the artist gets screwed. And I did not want to be that story where we were just signing something we didn't know and. Or something that was taking advantage of us.

[Danielle Fishel]

You were savvy to even know that because, you know, a lot of people did not know and are willing to take Sparrow jpms.

[Joe King]

It was that second grade newspaper out in the morning. Like someday I'm not gonna get screwed.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's right. I know. I'm onto you. How long did it take then for your life to just completely change after the episode air aired?

[Joe King]

Right. So after how to Save a Life aired, my grandmother called me and she was like, Joey, oh, I heard your song on Grey's Anatomy. And she was so excited and so proud. That was the first call. Yeah. And she was like thrilled because she loved the show. Emma Betty, just. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, you does that.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's on your radar.

[Joe King]

It's on your radar. Yeah. And. And it was, you know, I think because the band was already. We had a fan base and we were already touring, you know, from over my head and what was happening. The timing couldn't have been better because I do think looking back of how to Save a Life was the first thing that happened for us through graze. We may have been just super pigeoned into, you know, that only thankfully had

[Danielle Fishel]

over my head before. Right.

[Joe King]

So that there was already, you know, know, like we were a band before that and it was happening and.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. So I like street cred already in a way.

[Joe King]

I don't know. But like, at least our fans knew.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, exactly. I don't know if like, like the core fans knew. Obviously those that found us through how to. Through graves, you know, did so. And that's great.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right?

[Joe King]

You know, you're not gonna. I mean, you gotta, you know, get your music heard somehow.

[Danielle Fishel]

Totally.

[Joe King]

And at that time too, there was. There was a. I remember like wrestling with. With the idea of licensing the song or any song to TV or commercials. Cause there was like a. There was a. It was a time where artists were like. There was a. It was a sellout to us.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh yeah. By the way, now you are applauded for selling out in 2026. Everyone's like, get that bag, honey.

[Joe King]

Oh, yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Back in the day, you even did anything that could be thought of as selling out, and people were ready to attack you.

[Joe King]

Oh. And there was so. There was a big fear around this because artists were like, I don't press or something. Were hard on it if you license your song. And I remember before the Gray's thing, the man called Wilco that I love.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, yeah.

[Joe King]

They got a bunch of flack for a license that they did. And it was like, everybody. It was so much blowback, and they issued a statement. They were like, we are sorry that we made money.

[Danielle Fishel]

I apologize that the thing I love to do and am very good at has been profitable for me.

[Joe King]

Which is funny, because then five years later, they reverse course and. And, you know, and that's what you do, because it's like, come on. I mean, we're artists. We. We gotta, like. We gotta eat, you know?

[Danielle Fishel]

Of course.

[Joe King]

So I remember wrestling with it, and then we just was like, all right, let's just do it. Just say yes to this. And. And then it became like. It's just like. Then there was, like, Scrubs and so many different, like, sinks, and I was like HBO and, like, just blown away with, like, how our music was being used, you know, and it didn't take anything away from, like, the integrity of the band.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

You know, because we didn't write the songs for. For those shows.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

We wrote them because they were true.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Joe King]

And they were. They came from, like we're talking about. They came from questions.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

In fact, it's funny because our. My publisher, I remember signing, you know, my first publishing deal. Deal, and it was before any of the sinks came through. We sat down to have the meeting when they heard the record, and they told me. They were like, we don't think there's anything on here that's licensable. It's just not a sync record. There's no sinks, you know, sync songs. And I was like, okay, well, why did we meet today?

[Danielle Fishel]

Could have been an email, right? Could have been an email.

[Joe King]

Yeah. So you never know.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep. Yep. Trust me. We have some emails that say, I don't think Pod Meets World is a podcast.

[Public Podcast Advertiser]

Exactly.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, okay, cool. Thanks. I found a very fun Jingle Ball from 2009, and I wanted you to hear this lineup. Jordan Sparks, Jay Sean, Cobra, Starship, Pitbull, Owl City, Justin Bieber.

[Joe King]

Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

And the Fray.

[Joe King]

Oh, yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

If Spotify shuffled in that order, I might think I Was hacked.

[Joe King]

First time. Yeah. Oh my goodness. First off, Justin Bieber. That was the first time we met.

[Danielle Fishel]

Really.

[Joe King]

And actually the last time. Oh, that's the only time you've seen each other? I haven't, I haven't seen him. We just haven't crossed paths. Although like friends will send me, like he'll post know our song, you know, and our songs in general and vibing with the music and, and. But I remember I didn't know him before that show. Cuz it was like right when he was. It was happening. But I remember we played and then I was backstage and the frequency of screams was piercing through the wall.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. You were like, this is on the other side of a wall.

[Joe King]

What is going on in this arena right now?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

And so I went in there and it was like a pitch that I had to like plug my ears.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Yep, yep. And then I saw him up on stage. I was like, damn this. I'm just, I'm seeing a legend right here.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, and yeah, I mean, I hope to collaborate with him at some point.

[Danielle Fishel]

That would be. That would be incredible.

[Joe King]

Just something. If not, I'm always gonna be a fan.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh yeah. I would love to. I would love to see that. I really would. That sounds like a good crossover for me. Do you like doing radio shows for,

[Joe King]

you know, for the reason of coming across an artist that you never would have not otherwise been like, been in the same circle. It's a bit of a, like, okay, dance, you know, dance for now, three seconds or you know, but I don't know, like, I appreciate them. They're like, they're banger, you know, banger shows.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yep.

[Joe King]

You just play the hits. Play the hits. That's what it's about.

[Danielle Fishel]

Get out.

[Joe King]

Yeah. So, you know, I'd be down. We actually did one one maybe a year ago with Teddy Swims.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes, of course.

[Joe King]

And again, to my point, like I hadn't, you know, met Teddy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And we were playing the same show and backstage we're just like hanging and vibing and saw his show. Just love him as a person. And we just got to like, you know, got to chat that night, hang. And then the next night we played a second radio show and I was like, dude, you want to, you want to come out and sing? Like, let's. He's like, yeah, let's do. Let's go.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And so then it became a collaboration.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

You know, and now we're friends. And so in that sense.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

It introduces you. Like art inspires art. Creative inspires. Creative. So, like, yeah, I'm a fan.

[Danielle Fishel]

You celebrated 20 years of how to Save a Life last year with a world tour. You played across North America and Europe, all leading to the new album that just dropped. How does revisiting old music in such a big way affect when you're writing new music?

[Joe King]

It's a good question. I. I don't think it's in my. My orbit. When I'm writing new music, I. I just have to write what's true. And that's all I have control of. Like, I don't want to try to replicate or try to work. I don't worry about is this. What are they going to think this is fray? Or are they, you know, going to connect to this? Because I. That just. I've been there before and that crushes me. It just kills my creative or it just feels forced and it's like fake or something. And so I just have to just surrender to what's true, you know, and. Is this something I love? Is this something we love as a band? And really, at the end of the day, that's all we did at the beginning and that's all we're doing now is just like, release what's true, what we love enough to share with the world. And proud. Proud that we're. We're still doing this as a band. And not only still, but better.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

And like, the shows are so fun. Like, I love playing the body at work, you know, because there's more stars in the sky, you know, and they're all. They're all there in our little spot in the sky, whatever it is. Like, we get to share those night after night. And you can feel the story in the well.

[Danielle Fishel]

And when you've had a career for as long as you have, that longevity gives you hindsight. And now you can look back as you're playing songs from 20 years ago and you know how it all turns out. I mean, there's still a lot of future, so you don't know how it all turns out. But there's a different feeling when you have some space from some of your earlier art and are able to appreciate it in a new way. And now you are gonna be out on the road with Dashboard Confessional for the Summer of Light tour. Tour. What is the biggest difference between Joe King touring 20 years ago and joking touring now?

[Joe King]

Well, that's a. That's a good question. I'm certainly not worried about the same things.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Joe King]

Okay. So less worried about, you know. Yeah. What people think. Maybe I'm More worried about. About, oh, I shouldn't drink that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. Okay.

[Joe King]

I shouldn't eat that before the show.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Joe King]

And then after the show, I should probably rest.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna actually go to sleep. I'm gonna drink my electrolyte water.

[Joe King]

I know it's, it's. It's geeky, you know, but I'm just like, if I want to have a longevity here, like, and I want to do this into my, like, 70s, pray to God we can, like, I want to sing these songs for the rest of my life.

[Danielle Fishel]

Totally.

[Joe King]

You know, and so. And I want to do it well, you know, I mean, fans that come to these shows, I mean, they spend their money, they spend their time, they spend. It's hard to go to shows. Like, you gotta wait in lines, you gotta park. You got all this stuff, all these variables. These. And they. I want to give them the best.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Joe King]

I want to give them our best. And so that just means making decisions differently.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Joe King]

Which is. Means that you're not having as much fun.

[Danielle Fishel]

Listen, you're preaching to the choir. I've been saying to people for a long time, I'm sorry, I'm just not that fun anymore. I have fun in a different way now. 8:30pm in bed is so exciting. I love it.

[Joe King]

Like, with Dashboard, like, Chris, like, I'm gonna reach out to him soon just so we can hang before the tour.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. Cause we're not gonna have time if we try to hang on the tour. Yeah.

[Joe King]

We're gonna be midway through. We'll be like, hey, next week. Is there? Like, is there? And then it'll never happen.

[Danielle Fishel]

I'll see for the next Hill one. But then I think things slow down. Guess what? They never slow down.

[Joe King]

They don't?

[Danielle Fishel]

No.

[Joe King]

So I wanna, like, hang with them before the tour. Just vibe.

[Danielle Fishel]

Just have an early dinner.

[Joe King]

For sure. Early dinner. Yeah. We can have our fun pre tour.

[Danielle Fishel]

Pre tour.

[Joe King]

We're gonna go hard. Chris and I are gonna go hard before the tour.

[Danielle Fishel]

Give yourself two weeks to recover before the start of tour. I'm not done with Joe King of the Fray quite yet. This Friday, we will have a bonus episode with Joe on the dedicated Teen Beat podcast feed. So just search for us in your favorite streaming service and subscribe. That way you will never miss another episode.

[Joe King]

Episode.

[Danielle Fishel]

We're even gonna listen to a voice memo from one of you that was willing to share the story from childhood that still keeps you up at night. And if you're down to clown, we want to hear from you. Just send a voice note of your tale to teenbeatpodmail.com and we just might play it. And make sure to check out the phrase new album A Light that Waits and see them on the Summer of Light tour date and more information [e-mail] Beat is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fox executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman, Executive in charge of production Danielle Romo, producer and editor Tara Sudbaksh. The theme song is by Mark Hoppus. Yes, that Mark Hoppus. Follow us on Instagram teenbeatpod In our household, my husband and I have both been diagnosed with varying degrees of ocd, so raising awareness of its related struggles and knowing help does exist is important to us. And that's why I'm happy to talk about nocd. It's the world's leading OCD treatment provider, consisting of licensed therapists specializing in exposure response prevention, which has proven to be the most effective treatment for OCD. Therapy is 100% virtual, covered by insurance for over 138 million Americans, and they provide support even between sessions. So you're never facing OCD alone again. Book a free 15 minute [e-mail] that's

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[Bowen Yang]

Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Resource with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make make. It's not just for fitness, it's for getting after life. The 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions, it's just for life. With the wide variety of flavors from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. It's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein powers me to say yes to more Find your favorite [e-mail] that's P R E M I E R are protein.com or at Amazon, Walmart, and other major retailers.

[Danielle Fishel]

At CVS, it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night, and we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions, and here to fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.