Jon Heder

Summary

Pod Meets World: Jon Heder
Original Air Date: August 12, 2026
Host: Danielle Fishel | Guest: Jon Heder

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Episode Overview

In this spirited episode, Danielle Fishel sits down with Jon Heder—best known as the endearingly awkward Napoleon Dynamite—to explore his unique journey from twin shenanigans in childhood to indie film stardom, and his perspective on fame, family, and reality TV. The conversation delves into Jon’s path to “Napoleon Dynamite,” its quirky legacy, adjusting to Hollywood, voice acting, parenting, and his newest reality show, “Nation’s Dumbest.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Life as Jon (and Napoleon): Navigating Pop Culture Fame

• Name Confusion & Iconic Roles
  • Danielle jokes they'll always be known as Topanga and Napoleon, wondering about Jon’s real-life experience:
    • "What do you think the ratio is between John and Napoleon when people yell at you in airports?"
      • Jon plays along:

        “Oh, boy. I avoid the airports. I just take boat now. It's hard. It's much longer.” (04:59)

      • He dodges fan attention with headphones and humor:

        “Sometimes I just... pretend I don't hear... Or if they're far enough in an airport, I just... always have my headphones on. I pretend I don't hear. Half the times, I probably don't hear.” (05:43)

• Being an Identical Twin
  • Danielle notes Jon is the second twin she’s interviewed and asks about “twin confusion”:
    • Jon’s brother Dan doesn’t mind mistaken identity:

      “He would say the same thing. So we always had that... He just doesn't go to airports.” (06:12)

  • Twin “shenanigans” stories:
    • Swapped belts in kindergarten; switched identities for a full school day in 6th grade, fooling classmates and teachers (07:06-08:51).

2. Chaotic Family Upbringing

• One sister and four brothers made for a lively household:
  • “She was... the princess... and then after that, it was just five boys in a row...my poor, sweet mother... had to deal with that.” (09:01-10:15)
• Chores were done late; mutual respect for their mom prevailed (10:17-10:39).

3. The Birth of Napoleon Dynamite

• Early Collaboration with Jared Hess
  • Danielle asks how Jon connected to the famously idiosyncratic character:

    “Jared came to me and he had... this like eight page script. And I read it and... I get this guy. I know this.” (11:13-11:21)

  • “I knew some kids who were kind of like that...it was just kind of the voice...this is kind of how I used to talk when I was a kid.” (12:23-13:17)
  • The distinctive look—perm, glasses, moon boots—was developed with Jared's wife:

    “All the imagery... was kind of born out of... first came the voice and the composure... then... the physicality came next.” (13:17)

• Acting Aspirations & Early Experience
  • “Acting was kind of big in my family... but I didn't really... audition for student films... I did pay Luca with Jared Hess...” (13:42-16:21)
  • Planned to move to LA for animation, not acting:

    “I was going to be an animator. I was studying animation. I was big into art.” (16:26)

4. Napoleon’s Road From Student Film to Sundance Hit

• Initial project was a short film; didn’t expect it to go anywhere (16:49-17:29).
• They only realized the feature might attract attention after financing came through (17:29-18:46).
• On set, it still felt like a student project, even with professional actors onboard:

  “All the crew were... film student buddies... what legitimized it was... the other actors... but I still understood... this is a small, independent film.” (19:05-21:04)

5. The Art of the Awkward Silence: Anti-Comedy

• Danielle observes the signature silences and anti-comedy; Jon credits Jared Hess for the style:

  “He had a very specific cadence and timing...this is a real life kind of thing...his vision...was very observational.” (22:14-23:30)

  • Every pause and breath was scripted:

    "Every line is exactly to the script...we want the pauses in that breath in between all the moments." (23:09-23:30)

6. Staying Grounded in Hollywood

• Jon attributes stability to his age (mid-20s when the film hit), and being married:

  “I wasn't super young. That helped. I was already married...I knew what kind of person I wanted to be.” (24:12-25:23)

  • Not interested in Hollywood's wilder temptations:

    “It didn't interest me at all. Like, I was always from the get go, like, I don't need to go to a party, do I?” (26:00-26:11)

7. On Sequels, Legacy, and Jared Hess

• Danielle asks about the lack of “Napoleon Dynamite 2” and Hess’s work on “Minecraft”:

  “I saw it. I saw it...just knowing Jared as, like, oh, wow, it takes place in Idaho...” (26:37-26:49)

  • On sequel possibilities:

    “You never know...it's not my call...Fox was very much like, let's make...a sequel. And Jared was like, I want to do other things.” (27:44)

8. Hollywood Comedies: Bench Warmers, Blades of Glory, School for Scoundrels

• Perks of studio filmmaking:

  “That was a change doing...studio films...I gained, like, 15 pounds.” (28:10-28:32)

  • “When Blades of Glory came around...I had to...get in shape...regimen of what we were eating...polar opposites.” (29:58-30:01)
• Adjusting to LA before smartphones:

  “Me and my Thomas guide...had to learn LA...it was less about the no sleep and more about mileage I put on my car.” (30:31-30:57)

• The LA grid, canyons, and driving nostalgia: (31:10-31:43)

9. Blades of Glory: On-Set Memories & Learning to Skate

• The difference from indie to blockbuster:

  “It was the apex of...film experience in terms of like, this is the biggest one yet...the skating. Will and skating were like the two things I remember the most.” (32:07-32:43)

  • Jon was not an ice skater prior—he learned for the role and loved the process:

    “I wasn't like a skater before...I took to it and I loved it.” (34:25)

  • Will Ferrell’s casting was a “pinch myself moment.” (33:22-34:25)
  • On post-movie skating:

    “It's not like riding a bike...even when we're training, every day get on the ice...I have to relearn it.” (35:02-35:36)

10. Family and Voice Acting

• Danielle’s kids know Jon as Skull from “Monster House.”
• Jon’s own kids are generally indifferent to his movies but loved his cartoon work, especially “Pickle and Peanut”:

  “We all sat down as a family, every single one watched it and laughed our butts off...it's like Spongebob Squarepants meets Ren and Stimpy.” (36:51-38:32)

• Preference for his animated projects, especially when the kids don’t have to see dad on screen:

  “They really liked that...when it's voiceover, they're not seeing dad...” (38:44-39:14)

11. Competing on “Nation’s Dumbest”

• The dynamic among contestants (Ice T, Jojo Siwa, Dr. Drew, Carmen Electra, Hilaria Baldwin) was supportive, not cutthroat:

  “We all know the nature of this show. It's called Nation’s Dumbest...there is automatically a sense of...camaraderie...we all knew there was going to be...moments where we look stupid.” (39:52-41:30)

• Contestants helped each other prepare (and commiserate) for trivia and oddball questions:

  “We would go over a couple of things...geography things...let's go over how many states are there?” (41:30-42:42)

• Jon’s academic strengths (math, spelling, classic trivia) vs. weaknesses (sports, current pop culture):

  “If they ask questions, sports, I'm gonna fail...movies, I've got movies...” (44:13-45:03)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Navigating Fame:

  “I avoid the airports. I just take boat now. It's hard. It's much longer.”
  — Jon Heder (04:59)

• On Twin Mischief:

  “So we on purpose would switch belts...the biggest one...was sixth grade. We just decided the whole day we would switch places.” (07:55-08:51)

• On the Napoleon Dynamite Character:

  “No one has seen this character yet...there's something besides just your typical nerd. It's not that he's book smart. There's a social awkwardness.” (11:21-12:21)

• On Film's Unique Humor:

  “Every line is exactly to the script...we want the pauses in that breath in between all the moments.” (23:09-23:30)

• On Staying Grounded:

  “It didn't interest me at all. Like, I was always from the get go, like, I don't need to go to a party, do I?” (26:00-26:11)

• On Working With Will Ferrell:

  “He was the cool kid, you know, show me around the digs and let me hang out with the other cool kids.” (34:25)

• On Learning Skills for Roles:

  “I loved the skating. I wasn't like a skater before...but I took to it and I loved it.” (34:25)

• On Reality TV Camaraderie:

  “We all know the nature of this show. It's called Nation's Dumbest...we've all agreed to make fun of ourselves...there was automatically a camaraderie.” (40:05-41:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Jon’s take on airport fan encounters: 04:59 – 05:54
• Twin switching story: 07:06 – 08:51
• Family chaos and parental respect: 09:01 – 10:39
• The birth of Napoleon Dynamite and character development: 11:13 – 13:17
• Transition into acting/film and early BYU days: 13:42 – 16:41
• The reality of indie film turnaround: 16:49 – 18:46
• On anti-comedy and scripting silence: 22:14 – 23:53
• Staying grounded amid fame: 24:12 – 26:11
• Perspective on a potential sequel: 26:37 – 27:49
• Transition to studio movies & changing routines: 28:10 – 30:57
• Working with Will Ferrell & learning to skate: 32:07 – 35:01
• Family/kids and animated work: 36:34 – 39:14
• Nation’s Dumbest reality show ensemble: 39:27 – 41:30
• Education, strengths, and trivia weaknesses: 43:14 – 45:03

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Tone & Language

The episode is playful, warm, and authentically nerdy, with Danielle and Jon connecting over the unique challenges and joys of growing up weird and landing pop culture-defining roles. Jon’s answers are self-deprecating, thoughtful, and gently humorous, maintaining both humility and gratitude for his journey.

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For the Listener

Whether you’re a diehard “Napoleon” fan, a “Boy Meets World” devotee, or just love stories of accidental fame and staying real, this episode delivers a lively behind-the-scenes journey, full of grounded insights, quirky Hollywood tales, and reminders that sometimes the weirdest characters are the truest to life.

Transcript

[Danielle Fishel]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Jon Heder]

I'm Nick Turturro. You probably know me from NYPD Blue, the Longest Yard or Spike Lee's BlackKklansman. And on my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro, I deliver pizza to a new guest. I've shared a slice with everyone from Seth Rollins. What are you doing? My belt. To Bill Burr. I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am. And now we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Turturro. It's called Happiness Delivering Happ and many, many more. Open your free iHeartradio app search delivering Happiness with Nick Turturro and listen now. Summer blockbusters are back. The Odyssey and Brand New Day have taken over cinemas. And Raiders of the Lost podcast has all the coverage you need, including our interview with director Destin Daniel Cretton. What surprised you about Tom Holland? He shows up to every meeting early. He's the first one on set, aside from learning all of his lines, is also able to memorize everybody's name on

[Danielle Fishel]

Download the free iHeartRadio app.

[Jon Heder]

Search Raiders of the Lost podcast and listen now. Our hometown is not a test tube.

[Danielle Fishel]

90 miles northeast of Nashville, a battle

[Jon Heder]

for the future of America plays out

[Danielle Fishel]

in one small town.

[Jon Heder]

Developers with right wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land. We need cities on a shining hill.

[Danielle Fishel]

This is Our Town, a podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment and fights back. Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? Listen to Our town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Portlandia fans, Kerry Brownstein and Fred Armisen here.

[Jon Heder]

The dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form.

[Danielle Fishel]

We're launching Podlandia AO Rewatch our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together, breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters, and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made.

[Jon Heder]

And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life. Guest stars, collaborators and friends, including director Jonathan Krisel, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more.

[Danielle Fishel]

Kyle is going for it. Here you fully improvised not just words, but a song about.

[Jon Heder]

Well, I thought you were all going to write a song.

[Danielle Fishel]

I remember you thinking that. Listen to Podlandia AO rewatch on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Heder]

Give me money for cigarettes. I'll never leave your filthy bed. I stay the night and one night we can Two or three years the kids are not alright but that's okay Cause no one here is Take me.

[Danielle Fishel]

Hello and welcome back to Teen Beat. I'm your host, Danielle Fishel. Back again, ready to interview interesting people who have done interesting things all about their childhoods. I realized that you can't know where you're going without remembering where you've been. That's not only a saying you can buy on an embroidered throw pillow at Hobby Lobby, it is also the truth. I see it this way. I gave you my childhood. It's time we hear yours. And this week I am thrilled to dig a little deeper with a very special guest. It's impossible to recount the pop culture landscape of the 2000s without this man's dance solo. A cinematic moment that captured a nation, turning a micro budget indie movie into a worldwide phenomenon. Thanks to his legendary portrayal of Pedro's campaign manager, moviegoers fell in love with him, somehow turning one of the most ridiculous characters of the decade into also the most earnest and heartfelt. He went on to star in movies like Benchwarmers, Blades of Glory and Surf's up, constantly working since he first stumbled into the spotlight when a college friend asked him to star in a short film. And now he's sort of returning to academia in the form of Fox's new reality hit, Nation's Dumbest. He's competing in brain challenging games and physical challenges to find out if he's smarter than fellow celebs like Carmen Electra or Matt Leinert. But you can form your own opinion right now because this week on Teen Beat, it's a man with great skills, John Heater. John, thank you so much for hanging out with me on Teen Beat. We have never met, yet I feel a very special connection to you because we are two people who will forever be called by our character names. You know, Topanga and Napoleon will be mentioned first in our obituaries. And that is a special bond. What do you think the ratio is between John and Napoleon when people yell at you in airports?

[Jon Heder]

Oh, boy. I avoid the airports. I just take boat now. It's hard. It's much longer.

[Danielle Fishel]

I, you know, you avoid being yelled at.

[Jon Heder]

Yeah. You know, when I, it's, I mean, you know, the older we get, the more cantankerous old man I become. I don't get, you know, I never, I would never yell, but you know, sometimes I play. I play the game. I play the game if someone is. Someone obnoxious will just yell out Napoleon. Sometimes I just. I pretend I don't hear or anything. And then if. Especially if they're younger, if it's like a. Like a teenager kid that come up, like, Napoleon is like, oh, you mean John, you know.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, right, right.

[Jon Heder]

Or me. Are you talking to me? You know, kind of thing. Or if they're far enough in an airport, I just, like, I always have my headphones on. I pretend I don't hear half the times. I probably don't hear.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly. Yeah. You're like, did I? Never mind. You're also an identical twin, which is the second identical twin I have interviewed on our podcast. We had Nikki and Brie Bella on the podcast. Does your brother hate being mistaken as both John and Napoleon?

[Jon Heder]

That's funny. No, he doesn't mind getting mistaken as. As, I guess, me meaning, like, he grew up his whole life. We both grew up getting called. Yeah, his name is Dan. So we'd always joke, like, well, my name John, but I'm also known as Dan and Vice. He would say the same thing. So we always had that. And then, you know, he just doesn't go to airports.

[Danielle Fishel]

He just truly. He.

[Jon Heder]

He's saying he's. He doesn't get it as much, but he would still, you know, you get that look. Or someone would know or. More and more people are starting to become aware that I have a twin brother. So they can kind of. Oh, yeah, he's the. The lame man's Napoleon, right? He's the lame man's job. We could tell. We could tell.

[Danielle Fishel]

You guys have lots of identities. Did you ever participate in twin shenanigans, switcheroos? Did it ever benefit you in any way?

[Jon Heder]

Benefit anything? Everything had to be funny to me. Everything had to, you know, entertain me. And that's when I thought that's how I, you know, taking comedies or if I think something good, it's got to be good to me. I don't care about the audience if I think it's good. I do care about the audience. But, yeah, we. For sure, when we. We were much younger, we had. When I remember in like, kindergarten, we had shirts that I think, like, an aunt made for us when it had, like, a little hand that said, like, I'm Jonathan, he's Dan, and he had the opposite one with a hand pointing the other way. But we also had belts. And I remember my. I don't remember if my parents bought the belts, but our belts had our names on it, and they did it for the benefit of, like, our teachers.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Jon Heder]

So we on purpose would switch belts. And this was like, you know, kindergarten. But even up until I remember the. The biggest one we ever did, because we knew it was probably the end of that era was sixth grade. We. We just decided the whole day we would switch places. Even so much like on the bus, I had a girl. There was a girl I was going out with.

[Danielle Fishel]

Of course. Yeah. Which meant you sat next to her on the bus.

[Jon Heder]

Exactly. That was the rule. Like, of course you sit next to us. And we had switched that day. So he was already sitting down. She sat down next time, took her a hot second before she was like, oh, my gosh, she screamed. It was so funny. And then we, like, switched for our classes the whole day. And his teacher was in on it.

[Danielle Fishel]

He.

[Jon Heder]

He got it. But my teacher was this older woman and she was, like, completely clueless.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. She was just like, okay, this looks normal to me. Yes. You got away with it that time.

[Jon Heder]

I got it with it. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

In addition to your twin brother Daniel, you have four other siblings as a kid. How loud and chaotic.

[Jon Heder]

Three other siblings I have. I was like, wait just a second.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow. You had to count your siblings. That's a lot of siblings.

[Jon Heder]

I'm so used to say. I have four. Four brothers and one sister. Yes.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. So how loud and chaotic was your house?

[Jon Heder]

It was. It was pretty loud and chaotic. There was. Especially since my parents had a girl first.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

And she was, you know, the princess. And she was, you know, you're very typical, all American girl. And she was sweet. And then after that, it was just five boys in a row.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

Two of them being twins, which is already kind of mayhem in itself. But we were a tight knit group, and so we had absolute love and respect for our parents. But my poor, sweet mother, you know, who I adore, she had to deal with that. And. And we could tell, we knew that when it was mom yelling time and there was a lot of yelling from mom, we knew half the time, I think. I think in our hearts, we. We kind of make fun of it. We were like, okay, she's yelling at us again. But I think deep down we knew. It's like, she's yelling a. So that she can. We can hear her simply that it's not just. It's not abuse, it's not anger. It's just like, literally, I have to

[Danielle Fishel]

get my voice over theirs.

[Jon Heder]

I have to get. I have to beat them to it. I have to get the. And we were always like, yeah, messing around and stuff like that. And so. But, you know, when it came time to do chores, we. We would eventually buy days and get the chore done. Maybe not when we were exactly when we were supposed to, but I was like, no, you guys, come on. Like, let's get. Let's cut mom some slack.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, we love her. Let's. Let's be a little kinder to her. I want to talk about your professional acting origin story. You go to BYU and you meet a fellow film student, Jared Hess, who is shooting a short film on 16 millimeter with a budget of under $500. And this becomes the birth of Napoleon Dynamite. Where did the character come from for you? It is so specific, so unique, and yet we all knew a Napoleon Dynamite.

[Jon Heder]

That's. Yeah, Jared came to me and he had. Yeah, he had this like eight page script.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

And it was. And I read it and I just was like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, this is like, I get this guy. Yeah, I know this. And at the time I remember thinking, you know, this is a short film. We were just film students. We weren't. We didn't have like delusions of grandeur or anything like that. But I still remember thinking, no one has seen this character yet. Yeah, we've had oddball misfits. We've had like a couple nerd movies, but not nothing that. Where we showcase this kind of awkwardness in teendom, you know, in. In the teen years, like, kind of a nerd. But there's something besides just your typical nerd. It's not that he's book smart. There's a social awkwardness. I mean, nowadays I could probably just say, oh, go back in time. At the time, I didn't think about it. But going. But going now I could been like, oh, yeah, we've never had a movie or show where an autistic kid was.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, a kid on the spectrum, right?

[Jon Heder]

Yeah, kid on the pet spectrum. 100%. But, you know, I don't even think I was that aware of it back then. I didn't even think about it. It wasn't until years later that people started coming up to me, either like my son or myself. Huge fan. How we connected. I was like, oh, my gosh. That clicked. Yeah, that clicked. It makes sense. But yeah, I knew. I knew some kids who were kind of like that, but not like pictured 100%. It was. It wasn't all on the page. The curly hair and the glasses and the moon boots, I don't even think were in the script yet. It was just kind of the voice. And Jared, you know, did his version of the voice. And then I was just like, yeah, this is kind of how I used to talk when I was a kid. And my younger brothers especially talked a lot like this. And so that's when Jared and I, you know, we're like, okay, well, so what's he gonna wear?

[Danielle Fishel]

Right?

[Jon Heder]

His wife was like, oh, and I think we should get you a perm. So that all the imagery of it, how he looked, was kind of born out of first. First came, like, the voice and the composure and stuff like that. And then it came, like, the. The physicality came next.

[Danielle Fishel]

Did you have any acting aspirations before this project?

[Jon Heder]

I had done. My, like, acting was kind of big in my family, which was weird. My dad was a doctor. My mom had no acting experience. But my older siblings, my. My older brother and my sister, we were always put in, like, the local, you know, kid acting summer camps. And it was just became a thing every year, and they did really well. My especially. My older brother was cast, like, as the lead in most of the high school plays. And so it just felt like, well, we gotta do some theater education.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

And I always thought it was cool. And there's, of course, that feeling as a kid, like, do I. That would be so rad if I was a lead in that play or if I got to do that. But I didn't really. I could be goofy, but I didn't know how to pitch my voice or to really, you know, be myself. I didn't. I didn't understand that. And then in high school, I started making a lot of videos. I got really into video production. Like, I guess you'd say filmmaking. But, you know, we had video camp. It was like the.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

Like the birth of handycams. And you had. You could take cameras anywhere, drop them, they're fine. And so I just became obsessed with that. And that's when I knew I wanted to make film. And because of that, you know, you have to act in your own videos. You don't go to a local casting agency, you know, in high school. So I would be in my own videos. And that was the beginning, I would say, of, like, okay, stepping outside of my shell a little bit, getting a little bit more comfortable, but not understanding the principles at all.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

And then it was at byu. It was at college when I studied film. And because of that, I had to take, you know, required classes, one of them being acting. And that really was the first time I took an acting class where I was. It opened my eyes.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

Oh, it's. Everything fell into place. I was like, now I get it. Now I get just, you know, some of the simple principles. You're like, I. That makes sense to me. That, that totally makes sense. So I really, I loved it. I enjoyed it. I started like auditioning for student films.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

For student plays. I never, I didn't get an agent. I didn't. Had no major aspirations. But it kept, you know, I did pay Luca was the name of the short film I did with Jared has. And I had done that. And then like I said, I got cast in a couple other student films. So I kept thinking, you know, they keep casting me, maybe there's something there. But I don't know. I can't see myself of ever going to la. And.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

I saw myself going to la, but I was gonna, I was on an animation tracked.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

I was going to be an animator. I was studying animation. I was big into art. And so it was still filmmaking to a certain degree. And I thought, yeah, maybe I'll go to la. But. But for that reason.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, not for this reason. So you finished the project for. With Jared after it wraps. Do you ever expect it to go

[Jon Heder]

anywhere when we, when we shot the short film? No, not the short film.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

Because short films don't go anywhere normally. And I mean, as a student, I knew that. I was aware that. All right, okay. I know sometimes you can use a short film to help you a. For the director kind of conceive and understand, like, all right, this makes sense. This helps me. I know that you can get them into film festivals and maybe get eyes on it. But we didn't really use it for, you know, is all finance. The feature film was. Financially, it was financed by one guy, basically.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

And it wasn't through, you know, film festivals. It was a friend of ours, brother. It was his older brother who knew about it. So no, I, I had no. I remember thinking the short film was great. And it wasn't until Jared said, hey, I want to make a feature length version of yeah. And this was probably like, you know, like three months later after the short film that he said that. But again, it was going to be like another year, year and a half before we shot the feature. So he's like, I just want you to know, I want to make a feature. It's going to be a while. We, you know, we got to write the script, we got to figure out funding. So. Yeah. But even, even then it's like I wasn't really thinking big picture. I'm just Thinking rad. Of course. That makes sense. And maybe, maybe when you have something, when you have a film, someone's gonna see this some. We're gonna get more than just my extended family watching this movie.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

Even if it's in a couple film festivals and you get those kind of filmgoers who like weird, quirky independent films. Yes, that's kind of what I said. That's where, that's where my expectations were lying at that moment.

[Danielle Fishel]

So that time passes that year, year and a half, you get, you guys get the funding, just under half a million dollars and it's now going to be a feature film. It's now a month long shoot and there are, you know, real cameras and a real cast. Diedrich Bader Hilary duff's SISTER Were you nervous?

[Jon Heder]

Oh, no, no, I wasn't nervous. I was excited. I, I still felt like this was, it felt like a student project the whole time, even though I knew it wasn't officially a student project. But yeah, all the crew were, I knew all the crew because they were just buddy, like film student buddies and stuff. A few graduates. We're like, oh, they've worked in the local Utah Film Commission for a couple years. We got, we're legit. But you know what? Legitimized. It was like you said, the other actors, I was like, well, we got Teacher Bader, John Grice, we got Tina Majorino. I was like, okay, so that's cool, that's really cool. But I still was, I understood. I had been studying film. I understood like, this is a small, this is an independent film. I don't think they're getting paid very much. They just agreed to this weird project and. But yeah, I wasn't really nervous. I was, you know, I get along with people great. And it was like. And plus, I knew it wasn't. Maybe if I had, I probably would have been more nervous if I played a small role cast in like a Hollywood feature. Something was like, oh, this is legit and if I could get fired if I don't do this right? I was like, Jared and I, Jared was at the helm and Jared and I were very similar. And he was just like, yeah, Jared John, his directions, like, yeah, you know what you did in the short film, just do more of that, Just do that for longer. Yeah, yeah. Like, I knew I had the job. I wasn't nervous like I was going to get fired or anything like that. And we felt so confident in what we were bringing to the table, him and I, in terms of. Because it's like this is the main character. We've got that down. And this is a story in his world. And so it's really. I think I remember, you know, John and Efren more. So Efren, who plays Pedro.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

And Tina, I think they were a little bit more nervous because Efren has, you know, worked in Hollywood a little bit, but he wasn't a name and. And this was his biggest role today. And Tina Majorino, who was like a child actor but hadn't done anything in her quote, unquote, adult years. This is. She was 18. So she wanted to come back and say, all right, I want to do a mov. Now it's no longer cutesy little T. Majorino. I want to do a little bit more of an. Sounds weird. More of an adult role, but yes, a little more mature. So I think there was nerves coming from that other end and we were all just sitting back like, let's see what you got. Let's see what you got.

[Danielle Fishel]

There is so much silence in the movie, like long beats for jokes. And it is really one of the fun first instances of this kind of anti comedy that's become the norm now. But for me, I realized in sitcoms where silence is like death. Do you remember Jared editing in those pauses or were they always in the script? But it is so good.

[Jon Heder]

Yeah, they were. It was always there. That was. I think it was from the get go when we did pay Luca and I could see Jared had a very specific cadence and timing to what he thought was funny. And. And it made sense immediately. Anybody who got it. Yeah, anybody who got it. And most people would get it right away, like, oh, I get. This is a real life kind of thing. This is kind of how it's his vision of. Because he grew up in that area in Preston, Idaho, and that went to that high school and everything. So it's just. I. It was very observational. I just, he. His approach was like, I'm. We're taking a step back and this is a portrait. I want you. I want my audience to kind of see this portrait of these weird, kind of awkward characters. And because of that, everybody, pretty much all the actors, after reading script, but also seeing us film just a few scenes immediately, oh, I see. This is not the kind of film where we're going to fill it in with improv. We're going to try to throw in our own lines. Every line is exactly to the script. Mostly because we want the pauses in that breath in between all the moments.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

Were so important. That was. That's what helped make each of those little lines stand out and be really funny and work and. And so everybody's smart, like, they got it.

[Danielle Fishel]

How did you stay grounded? Then after this movie comes out, a lot of people are kind of plucked from outside Hollywood, thrown into a once in a generation Cinderella story, and then they get into some real trouble. How did you avoid the E. True Hollywood Story.

[Jon Heder]

I wasn't super young. That helped. I was already married.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. That helps. Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

Freshly married. That helped. Yeah. Just having some of that kind of like, grounding that. I was like, all right, I. I know what kind of person. Not so much actor, but I knew what kind of person I wanted to be and how I conduct myself and how the kind of people I, you know, you know, work with and who I want to associate myself with and just kind of already had that built in a little bit. And so. And, you know, I was aware of that story, I think. I think truly it was the age, you know, when I shot this, I was 25, 24, 25 when I shot it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

So I was already in my mid-20s. And I was like. Not that I was like, so I was still a baby to the industry.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

But at least to, you know, who I was. And again, yeah. Kind of knowing what kind of person I want to be, I was just like, yeah, there was a grounding there.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

And I was like going in, headfirst into this industry, not knowing, you know, exactly how it worked, but at least I was like, you know, I'm not gonna. That that's gonna be the part that I'm gonna maybe make some stupid decisions like turning down this project or saying yes to this project, but that's gonna be extent of that. Who I, you know, deal with or getting. Having, you know, getting into, whether it's parties or drugs or, I don't know, dark alleyways.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

That.

[Danielle Fishel]

That had already been decided. You had already decided.

[Jon Heder]

It didn't interest me at all. Like, I was always from the get go, like, I don't need to go to a party, do I?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

And if anything seems shady or weird, you know, I just walk away.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

Yeah. I don't know. I think. Yeah. I just. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I've always been shocked that there was no Napoleon Dynamite 2 with that kind of success. But I did want to know if you saw the Minecraft movie. It's directed by Jared, and there are so many homages to Napoleon Dynamite, and at times it kind of felt like a reinterpretation.

[Jon Heder]

Yeah, no, I saw it. I saw it. And of course, you know, seeing. I'm like, just knowing Jared as, like, oh, wow, it takes place in Idaho, but, you know, that's just who he is. That's where he's from.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

And there was a tote. There's something like a Top Factory or something. Yeah, I remember that. I was like, okay, it's doing a little. Couple nods. Yeah, we, you know, with the whole. The sequel thing. Yeah. I just. This. And the simple answer is just like, you never know. I mean, I suppose something could still happen, right? It could still happen, but I, you know, it's like, this is. I'm very, you know, precious and respectful. Like, this is to Jared's and Jared and Jerusha's. This is their baby. This is their creation. I helped create it, but it's not my call. And I'm, you know, I'm not saying whether or not I would. I agreed right away. You know, Fox was very much like, let's make, you know, let's make a sequel. And Jared was like, I want to do other things. I was like, yeah, it totally makes sense.

[Danielle Fishel]

So. Right, fine.

[Jon Heder]

And so we'll see. We'll see what happens.

[Danielle Fishel]

We'll see what happens. I like that answer. I do. I love that answer. Your next projects that you go into are Bench Warmers, School for Scoundrels, and Blades of Glory, co starring David Spade, Billy Bob Thornton and Will Ferrell. Basically three movies in two years. With Legends. Did you ever sleep?

[Jon Heder]

I slept great. I ate even better.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, I love it.

[Jon Heder]

That was. That was a change doing. Doing studio films and, like, oh, this is what craft services is supposed to be like. This is what catering is supposed to be like. I think a Bench warmers. I gained. I swear I gained, like, 15 pounds.

[Danielle Fishel]

Really?

[Jon Heder]

Yeah. I didn't. I didn't know how to, like. Because the difference was, is, like, you got. I shot Bed George was. What was I shot before? Blades of Glory. That was one of the first ones I shot. And that truly was like. And I was there for the long haul. I. I shot, like, a couple other studio films right before, but it was like Day Player kind of thing. Coming in for a few days, not really experiencing the whole thing, but first, bigger role, I guess, you know, Bench Wars. But it was Bench orders, you know, produced by Sandler's, Adam Sandler's, Happy Del Mar. They were known for, like, just catering to the nines. And. And so I was there, and we shot for, like, three months. We don't have to do anything. I'm not training because my character is supposed to stink at baseball. So they're like, no, you don't have to train Rob Schneider. We'll put him in the tr. In the batting cages all day long. He's got to be good. But, yeah, you guys can just eat and talk, relax and relax. And that's what we did. But then, of course, I guess when Blades of Glory came around, I had to. This is the first one I did where I was like, oh, you got to train. You got to train skating. You got to get in shape. You've got a regimen of, like, what we were eating. So I was like. It was like, yeah, polar opposites. Like, I got there and yeah, they had amazing catering, but I had an assistant who was like, bring me my meals.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, you're bringing. You.

[Jon Heder]

Sure.

[Danielle Fishel]

It was broiled salmon.

[Jon Heder]

Exactly. In the salads and the fish and everything. I was like, okay, whatever, I'll do it. I had a blast. But it was, yeah. Completely different experience. Yeah, it was, but there was a. That was a crazy time. That was a crazy time. When you say no sleep. It was like I. To me, that ex. Those, like, first couple years, first three years was all about my Thomas guide and me and if you remember the Thomas guy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Sure do.

[Jon Heder]

I had. We didn't have phones, we didn't have smartphones. And so I just had to learn la. Yeah, Learn la. And drive meetings beyond meetings. Meeting casting agents, casting directors, producers, agents, actors, writers, everyone. And so it was. It was less about the no sleep and more about, like, the mileage I put on my car.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. Think of all the time we wasted back then of sitting in traffic, you know, now we just hop onto a zoom. It's like, it's not an hour drive to CAA for a 45 minute. I know. It is. There was.

[Jon Heder]

I loved exploring in my car and getting to know the canyons and all the different freeways.

[Danielle Fishel]

When I first started driving, that was my number one most exciting thought was, I can't wait to drive the canyons. It was like, this is everything.

[Jon Heder]

And no. And no amount of exploring those canyons and doing the freeways. Were you still, like, none of this makes sense? Like, what? This is the worst layout. Like, all right, so now I gotta go here. And it's always bad. It was crazy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

And still.

[Danielle Fishel]

I know, unlike New York, that's a real grid system. There is no rhyme or reason to Los Angeles streets or even freeways. So people love Blades of Glory. I think it has only grown in popularity and cult status over the years. What is your. Other than the diet and workout regimen, what do you remember most from making that movie?

[Jon Heder]

I think it was the. It was the. The cold.

[Danielle Fishel]

The cold.

[Jon Heder]

It was the cold difference between a lot of the other projects. Not just. It was the, it was the apex of, of my film experience in terms of like, this is the biggest one yet. This is so night and day. From coming from a small independent film, Napoleon coming to big budget Hollywood movie. You've got the biggest star, Will Ferrell.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

You've got a huge crew, special effects teams. You got double. I mean, it was just. It was so different. And that's really what I remember the most, was just how different. But also that the skating. Will and skating. Will and skating were like the two things I remember the most because, you know, it was Will Ferrell. That was a dream come true. It was like. It was a dream. I. I always say it's like it's unrealized dream come true. Like, I didn't, I didn't know I had dreamt of that.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right. You didn't even know you could dream of that.

[Jon Heder]

Yeah, exactly. It's not like I thought, oh, maybe one day I'll get to do a movie with Will. It was.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

It wasn't. It was actually. It was, you know, the quick version was, it was Ben Stiller who was first cast in that role. He came to me about doing this movie. Him and I and his, his team produced it, but scheduling conflicts came up a little. Just a little bit later, and he couldn't do it. But he was like, don't worry, I'm still making this movie. We'll get some good. And then that's when they cast Will. And I was like, oh, oh, okay. Well, that's a pretty great replacement. I didn't exactly do better. And so it was very. I was like, really? Well, that's like, are you serious? Like, so it was very much pinch myself moment. He was extremely wonderful to work with. I mean, he was like what you would hope for and you know, dream of like in a person like him. Down to earth. Very kind and sweet and professional, but also extremely funny. Just like, he was the cool kid, you know, show me around the digs and let me hang out with the other cool kids. Kids.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

But then the skating, and then skating was, you know, I, I loved the skating. I wasn't like a skater before. I had gone a couple times growing up as a kid, you know, but I. And I remember thinking, oh, yeah, you guys, when they asked, like, do you have experience I was like, yeah, yeah, I've got experience. And then of course, we hit the ice and I'm like, oh, man, this is like relearning the bicycle. And I took to it and I, I loved it and it was so much fun. And getting to do that, that was a big thing. I loved learning a craft for a film. That was really fun.

[Danielle Fishel]

Have you skated since?

[Jon Heder]

I have skated since. And it's not, it's not like riding a bike. Right. I can still pull off the stuff, but it's. It feels like riding a bike that every time you get on that bike. No. Even if you rode it two days before and it was serviced and it was oiled and, and it was in working condition.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

It's like, you can get on that bike, but immediately like, oh, this is rusty. This is old. Like, I gotta fix it. It's like, that's what it feels like every. Even when we're training, every day, get on the ice. Like, I have to relearn it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

Because it's just a different beast. So I can still do some of the same stuff. But it is. It's not an easy hobby to just keep going. You gotta. It's. It's. Yeah. I don't get to go ice skating all the time. And when I do, I'm like, oh, I feel like eyes. I'm like, I've got to. I've got to show it. I've got to perform. Yeah. I don't know if I could do it.

[Danielle Fishel]

I needed a solid hour of just warming up. I feel very much the same way about dance. When I. When I'm dancing every day for four hours a day, you are oiled up, you're in the mode. But then after any sort of break, even if it's just a few days to a week, the minute you get back into it, you're like, what am I supp. How do I. I've got to get the. All of this back into. Back into place.

[Jon Heder]

Absolutely. Yeah. Same thing.

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, in our house, you are not Napoleon Dynamite. You are Skull from Monster House, which is a favorite of my five and seven year olds.

[Jon Heder]

Oh, wow. That's awesome.

[Danielle Fishel]

You have four beautiful kids. Do they have a favorite of your movies?

[Jon Heder]

I would say deeper Cut here right now. They've all gone through phases and. But the blanket statement is no, they don't care that much about my movies.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

Like, you know, my kids feel the same way about me.

[Jon Heder]

Yeah, yeah. They're like. But like, you know, they went through my. My youngest my 9 year old, she's definitely into. She likes Napoleon. She does like Napoleon. I. But that's mostly what she's seen. I have not. There's a couple others I haven't shown her yet. You know, and a couple of them seen the other ones, but they're like. But I think the one project I've done that for the first time when it first came out that we all sat down as a family, every single one watched it and laughed our butts off was Pickle and Peanut and. And not a lot of people know about it, but I'm always putting the word out. It was a Disney cartoon. It was a Disney show we did for two seasons.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

And it's like, it's. It was. It felt the most irreverent Disney ever got, but it was like kind of spongebob squarepants meets Ren and Stimpy. It's just about a Pickle and a Peanut and their two friends, like high school buddies who live in Reno, Nevada and they just get up to nonsense and it's totally crazy and wild and it's. It was so much fun to do that voice work kind of from. With the creators creating each episode and then. And yeah, we would. We just sit around and we're rewatching it now with my 9 year old because she did. She was too young when.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

First came out. And so. And she's loving it. She's loving it. And so that of all my projects.

[Danielle Fishel]

Back to your original love. Back to the thing you thought you were going to move to L. A and do.

[Jon Heder]

It's easier. I think the animated stuff, like, they really liked that we did an animated Napoleon series for like, you know, six episodes. And she, they. The kids really like that as well. Because I think because it's very. When it's voiceover, they're not seeing dad, they're. They're seeing a pickle or they're seeing some animated character that they. Yeah, there's. That's true now I think about. There's. I did his character on Star versus the Forces of Evil.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes. I did that cartoon. Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

And they. That was probably. They would say, oh, that's my favorite thing you've done. And they respected and loved it because again, they're not seeing me, they're just hearing the voice and they. Yeah, a cool project, you know.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's so great.

[Jon Heder]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I want to talk to you about Nation's dumbest Before you go. Oh, yeah, yeah, you are. You have some fellow contestants, including Ice T, my pal Jojo Siwa Dr. Drew, who felt like real competition until he was eliminated in week one. Carmen Electra and Hilaria Baldwin. And I'm not asking for any spoilers, but did you all get along the entire time?

[Jon Heder]

Oh, we got on great.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

I think what really helped is a we. Nobody knew who was gonna be the other contestants until we were introduced each other on camera.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Jon Heder]

They wanted to keep it secret. And so when we show up the first day in the classroom, which was like, you know, the main hub. Yeah, we're. I'm seeing everybody for the first time and I'm so, like, some of them, I'm not quite sure who they are, but, you know, I'm still recognizing some faces, but I think what really helps in those. Yes. It is an individual competition where each person is competing against the other to try to get off first. We want to get off before the others to get eliminated first. However, we're all. We all know the nature of this show. It's called Nation's dumbest. You know, you could be the winner. So there is automatically a sense of not just empathy, but, like, camaraderie that we're all feeling like a. We're all. We've all agreed to make fun of ourselves for the next X amount of episodes or whatever, and we get it. And we all know how that feels when you look dumb on camera. But that's going to be the whole premise. And. And the selling point of the show is watching how dumb we look and have moments of, you know, victory and for sure where feels good. But we all knew that there was going to be the chance and there was guaranteed to be moments where we look stupid where we get a question wrong. So I think that helped us bond a little bit more. So we. We got along great.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

It was never like, I'm taking you. I don't know if, like, maybe that's how it is in Survivor or other reality competition shows, but we. We were like. Because there's nothing we could do to prepare, really. I mean, I know we were just like, well, you could start studying, but you have no idea. They're gonna. I remember there was the one thing I was like. I remember telling my teammates because I was like, I know they're gonna ask this question, you guys, because they asked lots of random stuff. But don't forget that the. The Democratic Party is donkeys. No. Yeah, it's donkeys. And the Republican Party is elephants and they are blue and the donkeys are. No, sorry. The donkeys are blue. And yes, now I'm forgetting. I was like, yeah, Democrats are blue. Yeah, Democrats are blue. And the Republicans are. Americans are red. And I was like, that seems simple enough, but that's something. They're so going to test us. They never asked that question. But that was the only thing I remember telling the other team. I was saying, it's like, okay, you guys, we would go over a couple of things. I like just geography things. Or like, okay, don't forget, like, simple things. Let's. Let's go over how many states are there?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

We had a couple contestants who, no matter what, if they were asked a kid's question, anything to do with nursery rhymes, TV shows, like kids shows, anything, they were just burning fails. So sometimes we sat there kind of reviewing. All right, here's all the Dr. Seuss books.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

Here is what's on Nickelodeon right now. Or, you know, or was on Nickelodeon and, you know, in the 80s or something or, you know, some of. Or like, even, like, nursery rhymes. Just stuff like that. It was. That was the extent of our study going in.

[Danielle Fishel]

Did you feel like you had any specific educational strengths?

[Jon Heder]

I. I was like, okay, I was a good student. I can follow directions well. And that I think, gonna help. I was always pretty good at math, English, spelling. This isn't a spoiler because they already had the episode where we had the spelling bee. I remember thinking, yes, I got this. And then, you know, you find out it's a team challenge and you're only as good as your teammates. Like, oh, I don't got this.

[Danielle Fishel]

I don't got it.

[Jon Heder]

I mean, maybe I got it. I don't know. Do you guys got you guys? Do you have it? Do you have it? No. And I get shake. Shaking heads. Like, that's one thing a lot of people are like, dude, I'm smart, but I can't spell very well. Yeah, yeah. There was like, elements of geography I'm good at, other elements I stink at, you know.

[Danielle Fishel]

So what would you say an educational weakness was for you sports?

[Jon Heder]

And I don't even call that an education, right? But I remember going and thinking this. A lot of this is based on trivia. And a lot like trivia. Like, if you remember that game Trivial Pursuit, they're going to have all these different categories. But I was like, if they ask questions, sports, I'm gonna fail. I. And they did ask some. And I got the ones that were about, like, which sport involves this kind of, you know, these kinds of balls or something or these kinds of equipment. I was like, that I can do. But if it's going to be about players, stats, years, teams.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, forget it.

[Jon Heder]

Stuff like that. I was like, I'm out.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Jon Heder]

I remember thinking that. And then like pop culture I'm really good at up to a certain years. And specific things like movies. I've got movies.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Jon Heder]

I got most television music I'm really good at up until like, like the 2000. Then I'm pretty good with certain genres but like other things. Things with like. Yeah. And then pop culture tell. Like there was certain. That's where I lost the most, was just like things that I didn't feel stupid about. I was just like, oh, I just.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, I'm not paying attention to current pop culture.

[Jon Heder]

Exactly. Like certain, certain things. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, you can watch Nation's Dumbest every Wednesday night on Fox at 9:00pm or the next day on Hulu, Disney plus or Tubi. John, thank you much so, so much for chatting with me. It was a pleasure talking with you and meeting with you today.

[Jon Heder]

Thank you so much. It was as well for me.

[Danielle Fishel]

Thank you. Have a great day.

[Jon Heder]

You too.

[Danielle Fishel]

Bye. Teen Beat is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fishel, executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman. Executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor Tara Sudbaksh. The theme song is by Mark Hoppus. Yes, that Mark Hoppus. Follow us on Instagram teenbeatpod. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.