Kerr Smith Meets World

Summary

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Pod Meets World – "Kerr Smith Meets World"

Date: November 3, 2025
Guest: Kerr Smith
Host(s): Danielle Fishel, Will Friedle, Rider Strong
Summary by Podcast Summarizer (AI)

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners on a deep dive into the career and impact of actor Kerr Smith, best known for his groundbreaking role as Jack McPhee on Dawson’s Creek. The Pod Meets World hosts explore Kerr’s origin story, landing the iconic role, the cultural significance of his character’s coming out and TV’s first same-sex male kiss, and what it was like to reunite with the cast decades later. The conversation thoughtfully honors the legacy of Dawson’s Creek and Kerr’s role in historic LGBTQ+ representation on television, all while keeping the signature warmth and humor the podcast is known for.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Dawson's Creek: The Dream Job

• The hosts share that, as young actors in the '90s, they often saw Dawson’s Creek as the "dream job" compared to the often more sitcom-style stories of Boy Meets World.
• Kerr Smith confesses he didn’t realize his peers envied his dramatic role:

  "That's the first I'm hearing of it." – Kerr (16:44)

2. Kerr’s Early Acting Journey

• Grew up in Pennsylvania and caught the acting bug in high school when performing children’s plays for local elementary schools (17:16).
• Moved to New York, struggled for nine months before landing a role on As the World Turns—doing his own deal without an agent, which he jokingly calls a “bad call” (18:19–18:41).
• Manifested his move to LA: Kerr drove cross-country, visualizing landing a role on Party of Five or Dawson’s Creek—his first two auditions ended up being for those very shows (19:13–20:31).

  "I obsessed about those two programs for four days...My first appointment was for Party of Five." – Kerr (19:13–20:31)

• His real breakthrough came after a general meeting with WB’s head of casting, Kathleen Letterie, who promised:

  "Kerr, I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna find a place for you on our network." – Kerr, recalling the pivotal moment (20:45–21:30)

• After a series of auditions, he landed on Dawson’s Creek.

3. Joining an Established Cast & Sudden Fame

• Kerr credits going through the casting process and moving to North Carolina alongside co-star Meredith Monroe with easing his transition into the established cast.
• Despite the show’s hit status, filming in Wilmington provided a “camp-like bubble” away from LA and the intense glare of Hollywood (23:00–24:44).
• Only realized the show’s true impact when fans began congregating at filming locations.

4. Making Television History: Jack McPhee’s Coming Out & First Same-Sex Kiss

• Kerr’s character was initially conceived as a love interest to complicate Dawson and Joey’s dynamic, but creator Kevin Williamson later envisioned something more significant:

  "I was hired to create a wedge between Dawson and Joey…but as you know, a character like that probably is not going to last very long...I'm glad he went down a different road." – Kerr (25:11–25:31)

• No one—including producers and network execs—knew Jack would come out as gay; it was an idea Kevin Williamson held closely (25:38–26:18).
• Kerr describes the “surreal” moment Kevin broke the news over coffee, and the daunting decision he faced:

  "I was very, very scared. Now, looking back, in hindsight, I am...super, super proud of what we pulled off." – Kerr (28:48–30:21)

• The historical context: In 1998, a gay storyline for a central teen was considered risky and even dangerous. Kerr describes real threats and protests outside the set:

  "There was a brick wall that separated me eating my lunch from a crowd of people that were angry as hell..." – Kerr (29:04–29:30)

• Ultimately, advice from trusted colleagues—and the prospect of working with Kevin Williamson’s best writing—gave Kerr confidence to take on the challenge.
• Kerr emphasized authenticity:

  "I'm gonna play Jack straight, and I'm gonna let your writing make his situations make him gay. We're not changing anything." – Kerr (33:19–33:51)

• Tells of the high nerves before filming the now-famous first network same-sex kiss between two men (32:33–34:46), noting the uncertainty about how much would actually air.

Notable Quote

"There’s always at least one person...I probably would not be alive had it not been for Jack’s storyline and what you guys did back then...I just have to go out in the audience and just hug whoever it is." – Kerr, on meeting fans at conventions (31:21–32:06)

5. Aftermath & Lasting Impact

• Initial reaction from the LGBTQ+ community was muted (no immediate feedback due to the pre-social media era), but later recognition and gratitude powerfully affirmed the story’s significance (35:07–36:39).

  "Thank God for no social media at the time, especially when you're doing something that you know is probably going to split some of your audience off." – Will Friedle (36:23)

• The absence of social media meant actors could insulate themselves from backlash, though Kerr notes he'd still choose those less noisy times.

6. Saying Goodbye and the Cast Reunion

• Final seasons felt bittersweet but necessary; Kerr relates to Friends’ famous finale and its emotional weight (36:49–37:27).
• Describes the 2025 Broadway Dawson’s Creek cast reunion for F Cancer (held in James Van Der Beek’s honor)—calling it "an extremely emotional weekend, one that I will never, ever forget" (43:20–45:31).
• Michelle Williams’ husband, Thomas Kail, helped orchestrate the event, with Lin-Manuel Miranda stepping in for James.
• The audience’s response was huge, with thunderous applause as cast members took the stage.

7. Memoir & Reflections

• Kerr’s writing a memoir, I Don't Wanna: My Journey on Dawson's Creek Without a Paddle, which involved calling former cast, crew, and writers:

  "What I found out was that actors can't remember, but everybody else can." – Kerr, on researching the book (47:19–47:44)

• Fond memories of cast camaraderie, especially weekends spent together boating in Wilmington:

  "I have been trying to recreate that experience for the last 25 years, and I have not been able to do it." – Kerr (48:29)

• He reveals there was once a script for a Jack & Doug spinoff—described as “The Fosters with two dudes” set in Capeside—but Sony “wants the main characters in it all the time,” so it remains unproduced (49:34–50:22).

8. Looking Back: Advice to His Younger Self

• The hosts ask what Kerr would say to his younger self:

  "Relax and enjoy the moment. Try and be in the moment all the time...staying in that present moment is the best, best absolute thing you can do, man." – Kerr (51:43–52:09)

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Manifesting a Dream Job
  "I obsessed about those two programs [Party of Five and Dawson’s Creek] for four days...My first appointment was for Party of Five."
  — Kerr (19:13–20:31)

• On the Impact of Jack’s Storyline
  "I probably would not be alive had it not been for Jack’s storyline and what you guys did back then."
  — Kerr (31:21)

• On Authentic Portrayal
  "I'm gonna play Jack straight, and I'm gonna let your writing make his situations make him gay. We're not changing anything."
  — Kerr (33:51)

• On Advice to Himself
  "Relax and enjoy the moment. Try and be in the moment all the time."
  — Kerr (51:43–52:09)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|-------------------------------------------| | 16:44 | Hosts express '90s envy of Dawson’s Creek | | 19:13 | Kerr’s “manifestation” cross-country move | | 25:05 | Jack McPhee was never planned as gay | | 27:16 | Kevin Williamson reveals Jack’s storyline | | 29:04 | Facing real-world backlash and protests | | 31:21 | Fans’ personal stories at conventions | | 32:33 | The TV industry environment for gay kiss | | 43:20 | Reuniting for the F Cancer benefit | | 47:19 | Memoir research and cast recollections | | 49:34 | Unmade Jack & Doug spinoff script | | 51:43 | Life advice to past self |

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

The episode blends nostalgia, humor, and deep reflection. The hosts and guest honor the power of storytelling in changing TV history, especially regarding LGBTQ+ representation. They also dig into the joy and camaraderie of ensemble TV work, and the unpredictable, sometimes magical way that careers in entertainment can unfold.

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Recommended for:
Fans of Dawson's Creek, Boy Meets World, or anyone interested in TV history, LGBTQ+ representation, and the behind-the-scenes realities of ’90s youth television.

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Pod Meets World: Instagram @PodMeetsWorldShow
Questions/feedback: PodMeetsWorldShowMail.com

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Transcript

[A]

This is an I Heart podcast.

[B]

Okay, confession time. I tried to host a Friendsgiving last year with, let's say, questionable results.

[C]

Yes, we remember. You made mashed potatoes that somehow had the consistency of drywall.

[B]

Well, this year I'm taking notes from you both. I'm stocking up at one of my favorite places in the world, whole foods market. Their 365 brand has everything I need without wrecking my wallet.

[D]

Same. I got a no antibiotics ever Turkey for just $1.49 a pound with prime and even snagged organic green beans and mushrooms for the casserole.

[C]

Now I'm hungry. I'm all about their frozen appetizers. Quiche trio, butterfly shrimp. It's like hosting with cheat codes.

[B]

See Friendsgiving redemption arc in progress.

[C]

Enjoy. So many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market.

[D]

Limu Game and Doug.

[E]

Here we have the Limu Imu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[D]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[E]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[D]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Liberty Savings. Very unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. Listen to High Key, a bold, joyful, unfiltered culture podcast.

[A]

Speaking of crunchy, what did you think of your trainers run? I was amazing on that show, sister.

[D]

Were you?

[A]

I had. I was amazing. And I was better than you would be if you went.

[D]

This is exactly why Bob is a good drag queen, because she won't back down. She's not going to go double back on that lie.

[A]

I felt like you came in real hot, real strong, and that is just not the game, girl.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm going to tell you why you're wrong. And I can't wait to do this. Please listen to High key on the.

[D]

Iheartradio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[F]

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[G]

Make their holiday Unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle, but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member. Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[C]

Do you guys have Spotify?

[D]

Yeah, the one that comes with my phone. I don't know how to use the extra parts of it.

[B]

It comes with my phone.

[D]

Doesn't it have you.

[B]

It doesn't come with your phone.

[D]

Oh, I didn't download it. It's just on my phone.

[C]

Well, Danielle, have you noticed the new day list feature?

[B]

No. It's a day list.

[C]

Okay. So they used to do something called, like, a daily mix, and they would make a bunch of them. Okay, well, now they just have something called the day list, and if you click on it every couple hours, it updates and it makes a new list for you of, like, what it recommends based on what you've been listening to.

[B]

Oh, look, I got a opened it and it says new music for you. And then it's a single, but it's sponsored.

[C]

No, you got to go to Daylist. And it actually names them. So I want to do Two Truths and a Lie where I read the names of my daylist.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Because they have been remarkable, and I want to see if you guys can spot the lie. So we played Two Truths and a Lie when we would do our live show, but I don't think we've done it on the podcast. Or maybe we have once or twice, but.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So two of these are real.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Titles for collections of music that Spotify has recommended for me based on my listening taste and I guess my personality. And one of them is a lie.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Is this a daylist created by Spotify for Rider Strong Granola Vibes, Van Life Friday Afternoon.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Wait, is that the name of the playlist or that's the name of a song?

[C]

No, that's the name. It creates the playlist, and you click on it and it tells you what it's created for you.

[D]

That has to be real. That has to be real.

[C]

Number two.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Cottagecore Crunchy Folk Tuesday Night or Sleeping In Sad Girl Indie Thursday Afternoon.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[D]

Oh, I want them all to be real and all to be lies. Oh, it's Magical. I think the first one, the Crunchy Van Life, has the granola. Crunchy Van Life, but it's so on the nose.

[C]

It wasn't crunchy. It was Granola Vibes. Van Life Friday Afternoon. The other one was Cottage Core Crunchy Folk Tuesday Night. Crunchy or Sleeping In Sad. Girl Indie Thursday afternoon.

[B]

Sleeping In Sad.

[D]

I'm gonna. Oh, God, they're all magic.

[C]

I know. I almost wanted to do three. Three truths and two lies, because there was just. There were so many good ones.

[A]

Ah.

[D]

Part of me. See, this is where I get the writer's head, because part of me wants. Thinks that first one, you're using that to throw us. And the last two are real. But I think the. The Van Life. I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say the lie is the middle one. I think Van Life and Indie are true. And the middle one is the lie. That's my.

[B]

I completely agree with you. And by the way, the second one is actually my favorite. My favorite name, which is the reason why I suspect Ryder created it, because it's like poetry. The other two are just slightly AI Enough that I think they're all right.

[D]

Yes, you guys got me.

[C]

But, but, but Cottagecore and Crunchy have come up so many times. So. Another real one was Happy Folk. Crunchy Wednesday Afternoon.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Another real one was Mountain Home Tuesday Night. Oh, okay.

[B]

I. I have one called Mood Swing Teddy Bear Friday Morning.

[D]

There you go.

[C]

It's perfect for you.

[D]

You have to pay for them.

[C]

You know, it's. Oh, well, if you. You have to pay for Spotify. But if you have. But no, it won't. It'll update every three hours. So just write that one down. Because I had to start writing these down because you can't access the old ones. It keeps updating based on what you listen to. So you're in a mo. You're in a mood, Swing, Teddy Bear World, whatever.

[D]

Wait, where does this. Where do you find them?

[C]

Okay, you go to Spotify, you go to Playlists. It has something called Daylist. And when you click on Daylist, it gives you the name of your current day list. And it'll keep updating every three hours or so. And every time I click on it, I'm like, well, this is hysterical. And by the way, pretty accurate. Like, what?

[D]

I want to have a date.

[C]

It nails me pretty much every time.

[B]

You know what's interesting is that all morning I've been listening to, like, 20 seconds of songs because we're trying to pick what song we're Going to do rock and roll hall of Fame.

[C]

Swings.

[D]

Mood swings.

[C]

She's all over the place. My God.

[B]

Mood swings.

[C]

Stop drinking caffeine.

[D]

Oh, God, that's great.

[C]

It's amazing. You will have so much fun just clicking and being like, oh. Yep. Mystic campfire folk.

[B]

Here we are Friday morning.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

For.

[C]

For Crunchy is big for me. Cottage cores comes up all the time. Hell is cottage. Yeah, Crunchy. I just. I'm like crunchy granola, hippie vibe.

[D]

Are you guys on premium? Is that. Are you paying for this?

[A]

Is that.

[D]

Yeah, that's what it is, is I just watch all my music on YouTube. There you go. I do.

[C]

Well, then you don't get the joy.

[B]

I love my description.

[A]

True.

[D]

Yeah. That's great.

[B]

Welcome to POD Meets World. I'm Mood Swing Teddy Bear Friday morning.

[C]

I'm happy full Crunchy Wednesday writer.

[D]

And I'm not on premium Spotify. I'm Will.

[B]

For now, we will be taping a live episode of Pod Meets World at Disney California Adventure park on December 4, 2025.

[D]

If you live in the Southern California area or if you can be in the Southern California area on December 4, we have an opportunity for you to.

[B]

Join us between now and November 24th of 2025. You can enter for your chance to win tickets to attend the Coast 103.5 Private Holiday Party at Disney California Adventure park on December 4, 2025, including an overnight stay at the Disneyland Resort hotel for a family of four and two day one park per day tickets to Disneyland park or Disney California Adventure Park.

[C]

Plus, you'll have the chance to meet us while we're taping an episode of Pod Meets World inside Disney California Adventure Park.

[D]

Visit coast1035.com Podmeats World now to enter for your chance to win.

[C]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

[B]

Autumn has arrived. And you know what that means.

[D]

Pumpkin spice, kielbasa.

[B]

Ew, no. It means changing leaves, harvest festivals, pumpkin spice, and shorter days. And when it gets darker sooner, it can be a tough time for a lot of people.

[C]

It's the perfect time to check in on friends, reconnect with loved ones, and let people around you know you're there if they need you.

[D]

And that's not easy for everyone. Sometimes it just feels too late and takes a little courage. And that's what reaching out for therapy can be like, too.

[B]

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[D]

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[B]

That's better. H E L P dot com meets world.

[F]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Now through November 4th. Shop the annual beauty event and save $5 when you spend $25 on select beauty products. Shop in store or online for items like Dove Body Wash Native Body Wash, Cetaphil gentle skin cleanser, Dr. Squatch body wash, Neutrogena Hydro Boost Water Gel, Dial Liquid Hand Soap, and Olay Body wash. And save $5 when you spend $25 or more. Offer ends November 4th. Restrictions apply. Offer? Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[E]

And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.

[D]

Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us?

[E]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[D]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Fairy underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company Affiliates excludes Massachusetts.

[B]

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[D]

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[C]

These are deals so extra that they absolutely cannot be missed. And every two weeks there's going to be more.

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[D]

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[D]

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[C]

Visit your local CVS store or cvs.com extra big deals to shop this week's deals and stock up on your favorite products.

[G]

I don't know about you guys, but I love to buy gifts. I love it so much. I love it so much more than getting gifts. But the one thing that I do love, especially when it comes to my daughter, is getting matching things. I know it's such a cliche, but I love it so much. So I have the perfect brand for you. Pandora Jewelry can make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle, but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member. Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[B]

We've mentioned Dawson's Creek many times on this podcast, and not just because it was a tent pole show for its decade, but because we knew that 80% of writers time on the Boy Meets World set was spent daydreaming about what it would like to be on a real show like Dawson's Creek. Whether it was the complicated, relatable relationship of Dawson and Joey Pacey's never ending journey for purpose, or the themes of identity, independence and friendship, they were handling real storylines and looking beautiful while doing. Did they share the screen with a bear while covered in honey? No. But to be fair, I'm not yet sure I did either. And this week's guest may have just been the Dawson's Creek character with the most responsibility when it came to important and culturally significant storylines. When he moved to Los angeles in his 20s, it took only seven weeks to book his first job, a lead on the soap opera as the World Turns, which then quickly turned into the role of a lifetime Jack McPhee, the new kid in Capeside for season two, catching Joey's attention and putting the most important relationship in CW network history in limbo. And then came one of the most iconic smooches in TV history when his romantic scene with love interest Ethan became the first same sex kiss between two men in network television history. A milestone by all accounts that we can thankfully now say wouldn't even make the news like it did back in the year 2000. He recently participated in a spectacular charity event On Broadway breaking the Internet while reuniting the cast of Dawson's Creek to raise money for the f cancer charity in the name of their co star, James Van Der Beek, who's currently battling colorectoral cancer. And now he's set to release a memoir in 2026 all about his time on the show, titled I Don't Wanna My Journey on Dawson's Creek Without a Paddle. So it feels like maybe he's on his own POD meets World Style Journey. And we can't wait to talk to him about it. So welcome to the podcast. A man who made history on the show Ryder actually wanted to be on. It's Kerr Smith.

[A]

Hey.

[B]

Hello. Welcome. Thank you for being here with us.

[A]

Yeah, guys, good to see you again.

[B]

Good to see you as well. I just want to get this out of the way now because all of us were aggressively jealous of you in the 90s. We used to look at being on Dawson's Creek as a bit of our dream job. Did you know how meaty it seemed to the rest of us, you know, kid actors at the time?

[A]

That's the first I'm hearing of it.

[B]

Oh, well, we all really wanted to be doing what you guys were doing.

[D]

I'm guessing you never opened your script and went, oh, I'm sneezing the lottery numbers this week.

[A]

You guys were doing it a good decade before we were, so.

[C]

That'S true.

[B]

Well, let's start with getting into your origin story. You were raised in Pennsylvania. Were you acting in high school at all? Did you have any child actor aspirations?

[A]

I did a little bit. I remember this 10th grade. It was a combination of lit class and an acting class. Same teacher this was in. So we were sophomores and the kids would write these children's plays. And then the acting class that I was in, we pick the best ones and then we go around and we perform them for all the elementary schools in our district. And that was really my first experience with acting and kind of. Kind of got the bug right around then.

[B]

But you didn't move out to LA until you were in your mid-20s, is that right?

[A]

LA? I'd say 27, 28 years old. Okay. I was in New York for. Since I started acting in 95, when I was in New York for three years before I moved out to LA.

[C]

Okay, so were you doing theater in New York? Is that how you got in?

[A]

No, I was on. It was on As a World Turns.

[C]

Okay, so As a World that was over there. Gotcha.

[B]

I mean, you, when you did move out to la. It only took seven weeks for you. No, no, that was in New York. It only took you seven weeks to book your first job on as the World Turns. Is that correct?

[A]

You had it right the first time. It took me nine months to get the. My first job in New York with no agent, by the way. And, you know, I did my own deal with. With CBS on that. And jeez.

[C]

What? Kept that 10, kept that 10. That's great, guys.

[D]

It was a.

[A]

It was a crap deal. I don't recommend it.

[D]

It's like representing yourself in a murder trial. It probably never works out. Well.

[A]

Yeah, bad call. Now I just said. Because I knew one of the guys on the show and he was like, hey, there's this great part. Why don't you. I can get you an audition. And I went in, I ended up getting the damn thing. And I'm like, just, you know, just give me whatever you got him. Give him. And he got a bad deal, too. So we're like, all right. But, Danielle, so you had it right the first time. So nine months in New York, but yes, when I landed in Venice beach, it took about seven weeks. You guys want to hear a crazy story real quick?

[C]

Yeah, please.

[A]

All right. So in 96, spring of 98, I decided new York. I'm done. I gotta go to la. I've never been there. Scared as hell. Load up the U Haul with everything that I own, which is like, you know, half the truck is full, and then I've got the girlfriend in there, too. And of course, if you've ever done that drive, you got four days, three days, depending how fast you drive, to do a lot of thinking. So, you know, I'm this new green actor, hasn't done much at all. And I'm thinking, okay, what are the two shows? Like, one of the couple of shows that I'd really want to do, you know, if I had my pick, if the stars align, I had my pick. And I was. I was a big fan of Party of Five at the time. They were kind on the tail end of their, you know, their run, but I'm like, you know, that'd be a great show to do. And there was this other show that I had seen the pilot with this girl climbing up the ladder into this dude's window. And I, you know, and I remember watching the Pile of Dawson's and thinking, this thing is going to be a huge hit. And, you know, a couple months later, sure enough, it was. Everybody really started to love it. And I'm like, I would Love get on that show. So I am. I obsessed about those two programs for four days. That's just how I was back then, just hyper focused. I roll into L. A. My first appointment, this is crazy. Was for Party Five.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

And it wasn't a big role either. It was. It was to play Neb's boyfriend, I think one of the Londons. I think Jeremy London ended up getting it. I screwed that audition up. It was terrible. I mean, I was nervous. It was my first big one in la. You know how it goes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then a couple weeks later, I had a general appointment for your. For your listeners. The general is basically. It's not an audition. You just go in and it's a meet and greet. I'm new in town, I am curved. This is who I'm all about. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was with Kathleen Lettery, who was, as, you know, the head casting director of the WB back then. And we just talked, not even about acting for like 30 minutes. I remember sitting in her office on the couch. I get up, thank you very much. And I thought it went okay. And she goes out, you know, I'll never hear from this woman again. And sure enough, before I got to the door, she says, kerr, I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna find a place for you on our network. Cut to a couple weeks later, in five auditions, I'm on Dawson's Creek. Wow.

[C]

So cool.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

You want to talk about manifestation? There it is.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you think, oh, this just must what it be like? This is what it's like for people who move to LA and want to become actors, or did you know how crazy it was?

[A]

I knew how special a situation it was, and I knew how. Yeah, I was blessed, really. So I felt that.

[D]

Wait, you said five auditions later. Was it five random auditions or did you have to audition five times for Dawson's Creek?

[A]

I think I read because, you know, back then we were. I was reading for the casting director out of the gate and then, you know, do the producers meeting and whatever. I think I probably did three of those. And then, of course, I had the networking studio test. So. Yeah, about five.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. And so you were. You said you were about 27, 28, but you were playing 16 on the show, right?

[A]

Yeah, Meredith and I were the old. The old guys on the show, the McPhees. We came in. Yeah, we were both in our, you know, late 20s and everybody else. Michelle was 15 when she started. Right, man.

[B]

Right. We had a similar situation. On our show with Trina, who played Angela, she was 26 at the time that she joined. She had two kids. She was pregnant with her third, and we were all teenagers, so she was.

[D]

Making out with Ryder, who's 17.

[B]

Nice. Did you have an easy time blending in with the younger cast who already had a season together under their belt once you got to North Carolina?

[A]

You know, I was nervous. It was nice going into it with Meredith. She started one episode before me, but we came down to Wilmington at the same time, so we went through that whole casting process together, too, so that helped. But integrating. Integrating into a cast of four that had. I mean, they'd only done 13. You remember, that first season was a season replacement, so they hadn't done that many. But the show was a hit over the summer. It just became huge. And I remember getting out of the truck, and I think one of the first people I saw was Josh. And I remember him saying, he goes, dude, give it two months. Get ready. Your life's going to change. Oh, geez. And sure enough, it did. But it was, to answer your question, Daniel was super easy. I mean, everybody gelled together really nicely, and, you know, it just worked. That's awesome. Good.

[B]

How was it handling that kind of spotlight at the time? There were SNL spoofs, Rolling Stone covers. It was a lot. How did you guys handle all that?

[A]

We just. Here's the cool. What did you guys shoot? Were you in L. A?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So being in Wilmington, it's like you're not in Hollywood. You're in. It's like a camp type of atmosphere, is how I always say it. Something or just a bubble, and you don't really know what's going on because you're working so much and, you know, you're working all these hours and you just. I didn't. I don't pay attention to the publicity on all that. So I didn't really know what was going on until you start, you know, go to the grocery store or whatever. Then you know what's going on? Or hundreds of people start showing up at set, you know, right on location in Wilmington. And there's, you know, a couple hundred people across the. Across the street from all over the world. That started happening all of a sudden. So then, you know, okay, we're doing something pretty cool here.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You were immediately thrown into a relationship with Joey, played by Katie Holmes. You were a foil for everyone who was shipping the Dawson. Joey. Will they or won't they? Did you ever run into angry fans back then?

[A]

You mean just getting in the way between the two of them?

[B]

Yes.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't remember because it was, it was such a short lived story.

[B]

Okay, right.

[A]

I'm sure you want to talk about this but obviously Kevin Williamsman had different plans for the character.

[B]

Oh yeah, exactly.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

It went a different direction.

[A]

I mean, when I was hired. You're right, I was hired to create a wedge in between Dawson and Joey and stir things up. But as you know, a character like that probably is not going to last very long. It's not.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So I'm glad he went down a different road.

[B]

Yes.

[D]

He would have stuck.

[B]

You stuck around a lot longer.

[C]

Well, so did you know when you were cast that that was the direction the character was going to? No.

[A]

No.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Wow. Nobody knew.

[D]

Didn't know you were going to make television history at that point.

[A]

Right. The WB didn't know. Sony didn't know. None of the producers knew. It was an idea in Kevin Williams head. That's it.

[G]

Jeez.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. I just had a long conversation with Kevin a few months ago about all this really for the first time because I'm in the middle of writing a book on Dawson's Creek.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Kevin was kind enough to give me hours on hours of material and we were just talking about the old days and he told me how difficult it really was to get the network to agree to go down, you know, have a story like that for the first time.

[C]

Right. So did he have it in his mind and just sort of keeping it close to the chest? Yeah.

[A]

So. So like on Dawson's every, like the four guys, they're all facets of Kevin's personality. Kevin's really Kate, you know, and then the jokester's Josh and you know, the brainy guy is Dawson and of course the wild side is Michelle. But nobody was representing his sexuality at that time because he was in the closet publicly and he wanted to come out publicly, you know, beyond his family and friends. And I think he wanted to do that with Jack.

[D]

Wow.

[B]

Wow, that's so beautiful. I mean, especially for, at that time it was unheard of for network TV to see a main character have that kind of groundbreaking turn to be revealed that he was gay. Do you remember when you were first told of the storyline, how did you learn it was gonna happen?

[A]

I'll never forget it. It's an entire chapter of the book. Yeah. So we were shooting on location down on Front street in Wilmington and I remember Kevin and Greg, Greg Belaney was with him too. Flew down. I didn't know this until a few months ago, but they flew to Wilmington just to let me know what was going on. So he shows. Kevin shows up at the set. He goes, curry, you want to get a cup of coffee? This is like two months into the job for me.

[C]

Oh, no.

[A]

I'm thinking, yeah. Am I getting fired?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

What's going on here? So I was like, yeah, sure. And on the walk, I don't know why I thought of this, but I thought of what I just told you guys about how all the characters are different facets of Kevin's personality, that his sexuality wasn't represented. I knew he was gay. So I'm thinking, I bet you he's going to ask me if we want to make. Not ask me, tell me we're going to make Jack gay. And that's exactly what happened over a cup of coffee. And I. His exact words were, kerr, we want to go down a different avenue with Jack. And I went, holy crap. In my head. Yeah. I didn't say that alone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what happened was I. I said, look, can you give me the day or a couple days? Because I need to make some phone calls and basic. Basically call everyone that I respect in their opinion of and see if, you know, I need to make the right decision here. Because at that time in 1998, this is a tough one.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it was a real bummer for me, honestly. I'll be honest about this. It was. I was really excited because I just got this. I just got my dream job. Right. And I'm so excited. And now I'm being asked to do something very, very different.

[D]

Yeah. And very controversial at the time. I mean, hugely controversial at the time.

[C]

Right.

[A]

We had. We had protests outside the stage, yelling and screaming. There was a. There was a brick wall that separated me eating my lunch from a crowd of people that were angry as hell. If I had walked out there, they'd probably beat the crap out of me. Oh, man. Because it was in the south, too, which didn't help.

[D]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. So I basically called everybody I knew. My dad, my agent, you know, my sister, everybody. And they all said, do it. And one of the conversations I remember the most, I asked John Wesley Shipp, because he was there that day when we were having lunch together, and he said, kerr, he goes, do it because you will get the best of. Kevin Williams is writing. And he's right. Yeah.

[C]

But part of the risk at the time, I remember, because I remember being asked to audition for a gay character, probably even later. And you know, having my manager at the time say, you know, what can happen if you play a gay character? Then you're typecast as only gay characters. And I remember being like, really? Oh. But it still was a possibility that. That once you're labeled as the gay actor, that's all you're gonna ever play.

[A]

I mean, that's all I was thinking. I mean, that's all any of us would have been thinking. I was very, very scared. Now, looking back, in hindsight, I am. I just want to say this. I'm super, super proud of what we pulled off, because as you know, the face of television and has changed. And I think people's acceptance of other people, sexuality or whatever it might be, is much more broad and much more open these days. I mean, we've got a gay character on every television show now. It's partly because of what we did back then. Yeah.

[D]

But it's also, as an actor, to be able to do something, anything, that changes the course of history for television and put you on the map. I mean, again, people remember that the first interracial kiss ever was done on Star Trek with Kirk and Uhura. People are gonna remember that you were the first gay kid. I mean, this is something that will never go away, and that's really amazing to have that kind of impact on something as huge as television.

[A]

Well, even to this day, you know, when we do these. These cons that we all do together, I've got. There's always at least one person that flew from around the world, like France. Some of this guy from France comes in and he's nervous as hell, and he's got this whole thing written out, and he just read it, and it just. I just flew halfway around the world just to tell you this, and basically, it's always the same. It's. I probably would not be alive had it not been for Jack's storyline and what you guys did back then. I know. It's. It's. It's insane. Yeah. It happens in the Q and A's all the time. And James and I are up there together doing these. It's just the only. I can't even say anything, guys. I just have to go out in the audience and just hug whoever it is, because that's all I know.

[D]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[F]

Oh, man.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, as Will mentioned, I mean, you made history, a massive step for the LGBTQ + representation on TV when you kissed Ethan, played by Adam Kaufman. It was the first same sex network TV kiss between two men. Can you tell us what the lead up to that was, like, that week of rehearsal. Like, do you remember the thoughts that you were having in your head that week?

[A]

Well, there are two stories. There's my story, and there's a story that came from the producers and writers, which I just found out. I mean, from my. From my side. It. It was basically just navigating these uncharted waters that, you know, I had never gone down before. I was super nervous. You know, Adam Kaufman, who actually reached out to me a couple weeks ago, which is ironic. He didn't seem too nervous, but I'm going to talk to him about it for the book. But, yeah, it was just about. I wanted this to be real, because I'll be honest with you. You can use any acting technique you want. I don't care what it is, substitution, whatever you want to do. But when you lock lips with somebody and you feel the scruff, I'm not. You can't take it around that. It's like.

[D]

I know.

[A]

Yeah. So it was. It was hard for me. I'll be honest. It was really difficult. But I just plowed through, put the blinders on, and just did the best that I could. And what was most important to me is that we didn't fall into any kind of stereotypes. I told Kevin this, too. When I agreed to do it, I said, look, I'm gonna play Jack straight, and I'm gonna let your writing make his situations make him gay. I'm not gonna not. We're not changing anything now. Sure enough, wardrobe tried to change my clothes and hair.

[C]

Really?

[A]

They did change my hair a little bit, which was cool because I felt my hair sucked. Anyway, in the beginning, you were happy about that. It looked like a toupee. You know, it's terrible. So that was okay. But that was. The goal is just to play this character straight, play it real, and just let the writing make, you know, put them in situations that make now the writer, producer story. On that day, according to. I think it was Gina that told me this. They were all on phones. Like, you know, the network's like, make sure the camera's across the street. And Kevin's like, make sure they kiss long enough. Make sure the camera's right in their face. So it was this battle of. Of getting. They got all the shots because they didn't know what their network and studio were actually going to allow. And they actually ended up using something that was. I wouldn't say it's an extreme close up, but it's a pretty good close up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it was Everybody, you know, I found out everybody was pretty nervous about it. Wow.

[B]

Do you remember hearing you talked about the furious fans outside, just a brick wall away from you? On the flip side, do you remember at the time getting any sort of positive feedback from the LGBTQ community?

[A]

Yeah, that didn't happen until later, actually. Okay. A couple years later, we started getting some accolades. They were inviting me to the awards ceremonies and presenting stuff. I think we won a couple of things as well for the show in that regard. But, yeah, in the beginning, no, I don't remember a whole lot of.

[D]

Well, there's also. You wonder. I would imagine there's a luck factor. I guess I would say that as this was taking place, this is pre social media.

[A]

Right.

[D]

So I imagine had this same thing happened during the time of social media, it would have been a much. You would have heard from both sides instantly, the hate and the love right away. The impact would have been astounding and instantaneous. So there is a safety. We talk about this a lot. There was a safety as an actor back in the day of not having social media, especially when you're doing something this groundbreaking. I mean, again, you're. You're in completely uncharted territory, which you don't. There's a reason it's uncharted. You don't know what's gonna happen. You have no idea what. What the response is going to be, especially on a show this popular.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

That. I mean, it really could have changed the. In a bad way. Could have. Could have negatively affected the show, and it just didn't. It went. It went the opposite direction. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. Thank God for no social media at the time, especially when you're doing something that, you know is probably gonna split some of your audience off.

[A]

I agree. I would love to go back to those days. Yeah, I know, right?

[D]

No kidding.

[C]

Oh, God. I know.

[A]

So much more work.

[D]

I know.

[B]

Well, you would appear on the show right through its season six series finale. Was it hard to say goodbye to a character that you had experienced so much with?

[A]

Yeah, of course. I mean, you guys know how it is. Season three, season four. Somewhere in there, he started to get the itch to do something else. But you also realize that, you know, hey, this is the dream job. So you hang in there and, you know, and when everybody just kind of comes to an agreement, like, I think we're done for us in season six, you gotta let go. And, you know, my wife and I watch Friends all the time, and, you know, every once in a while they come across that Last episode I always, you know, when they're standing there and think Chandler goes, they want to go get a cup of coffee and Chandler's like, where? And they all walk out and that's it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I always cry every single time I see it because it reminds me of what I went through on that. So I get that it was super sad. And of course, you know, the episode itself was about Jen dying. So it was, that was also sad. So it was, it was a tough two parter to pull off, I'd say those, those two episodes and the one where Meredith leaves in season four, I think it was, that was a tough one too, man.

[D]

Emotional episodes, different emo, different emotion. When you get a Dawson's Creek than you do when we have emotional episodes of Boy Meets World. Slightly different things. I would say. Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Now curiously, because again, as Danielle said at the beginning, as actors, for the most part, I mean I was where I was supposed to be. But Danielle Ryder, a lot of the cast were like looking at stuff like Dawson's Creek and going, that that's what I want to do, that's what I want to have. Did you ever have the opposite? Was there ever a time like you say you like Friends. Did you ever look at, you know, a three camera sitcom with an audience and go, oh God, doing Dawson's Creek, like shooting a movie every day for years is fun but man, I'd love to do that audience show. I'd love to get in there and be on like a regular sitcom. Was that something that you ever wanted to do?

[A]

It's something I would do but it wasn't a strong desire. I've always been a drama guy. I just love it. And you know what, you brought up Star Trek. I've always been a, I'm a huge sci fi nerd and I have never ever done anything in space.

[E]

Oh, you'd be perfect.

[D]

Oh my God, you'd be a perfect like young captain on a Star Trek something. Are you kidding me?

[A]

I would love it. You know when we do these cons and you know, sometimes we got the Star Trek people there, like I had Brent Spiner next to me a few months ago and I'm just sitting here going, it's amazing. It's amazing for me. So yes, I would very much like to do something like that.

[D]

That's shocking to me because I think you'd be perfect for a young captain kind of thing or the new xo, something like that. Perfect.

[F]

Oh my God.

[D]

It's great casting.

[A]

Let's put it out there.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

U haul and drive for four days. Just manifest.

[A]

Manifest it.

[C]

All right. Where's the rental? Exactly.

[D]

It's a great idea.

[F]

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[B]

You're on a bit of your own POD meets world style journey first with the amazing cast reunion on Broadway for F Cancer. In the name of your castmate, James Van Der Beek. All of the original cast attended. James unfortunately couldn't make it, but what was that like? It looked very emotional.

[A]

It was an extremely emotional weekend, one that I will never, ever forget. It was really incredible to see everybody after 25 years. We did get together briefly in 2018 for that. I forget what spread it was, but.

[D]

Oh, when we all did those, I think we all did those. Like we got together as a cast. You got together as a cast. There was like 20 different casts that got together. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So it was good to see everybody again. It was, you know, Sunday morning I woke up to a voicemail from the director saying, call me, we got a problem. And of course it was James not being able to make it, which, I mean, you know, doing these cons with him. The last couple of years, I've really gotten to know James all over again this time as, you know, 50 something year olds, as adults rather than kids. And it's been very interesting and this whole thing he's gone through has kind of hit me hard. I bet it's been tough and you know, to see a friend and a peer go through all this, especially with, you know, the. Which is so awesome. But so I, you know, I'm glad Michelle, Michelle came up with the idea to do that. You know, her husband is the director of Hamilton, so he was kind enough to let us use their stages and their crew on Monday when we were down. Yeah, it was a fantastic weekend. We got James to record something so he was there in spirit on video it was just incredible. 1300 people probably had the best time of their lives. It was like. We were like the Beatles. It was insane. The way we laid it out was we had these two rows of seats where we all sat down, and then there was the five podiums. And then when. When the narrator would, you know, interior, Dawson's house, whatever, we would walk up whoever was in the scene and we'd do it at the podiums. And the first time that you woke up to do your first scene, every single one of us, we had to stand there for, like, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, until people saw, because of the applause, because they were just screaming. It was insane. I'll never forget it. Yeah, it was really fun.

[B]

That's so nice. So nice. And Lin Manuel Miranda stepped in for James. Do you think he captured the essence of Dawson?

[A]

I think there's only one person that can capture the essence of Dawson. Yeah. But, yeah, he did a great job. We were certainly appreciative of it.

[B]

Do you feel like the pilot episode held up?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I mean, it's just so raw. It's so good, you know, with Tamara and, you know, that whole storyline was so controversial back then with Josh and the future. Just, you know, people loved it. It was just out of the blue. And the way that the characters talk like they're 35 years old. Kevin has always said it's how people would talk if their heart that their heart, which I always thought was a beautiful way to set it better than I did. But, yeah, it was just. Yeah, it held up. Answer your question 100%.

[B]

Is there a big Dawson's Creek group text chat?

[A]

You mean between us?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Amongst you guys?

[A]

No, no, There are many single chats from me to them talking, you know. Hey, do you remember what happened on set 26 years ago? Are you crazy? No. Leave me alone.

[D]

That's our life. That's our life. Exactly.

[A]

Come on, just give me a quote. I need something for this. This I don't remember. It's crazy.

[B]

Yes, because you are going down an even bigger trip down memory lane with your book. I don't want to wait. My Journey on Dawson's Creek Without a Paddle. It comes out next week. Year. It's all about your journey and your experiences on set. What is it like sending yourself back like your own little time machine, back to certain days on set in order to write the book?

[A]

It's been a whirlwind. It's been a lot of work. I think I've interviewed, like, 25, something like that people, everybody. And what I found out was that actors can't remember, but everybody else can. I mean, the director stories, the PAs. I mean, casting, everybody, writers. The writers remember everything.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It's just. It was just really interesting to call everybody up and do these zooms and just, you know, talk about the old days and how much fun we had. Yeah, you guys, we had so much fun every week, every weekend, because we were on the water, right. We would. As a group, and this isn't just, you know, the five of us, we would all get together, whoever was guest starring, crew, everybody. We would jump on all the boats that anybody had a boat, Jet skis. We would congregate at this place called Dockside on the water. We load up. Beer, hot dog, you know, burgers, everything. We go out to this island called Mason Borough island, and we would just party out all day on the water. And we did that, like, almost every single weekend. Oh.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

I have been trying to recreate that experience for the last 25 years, and I have not been able to do it.

[D]

Yeah, there's. Yeah, there is the. The. It's the camaraderie. That's the thing is we. We're going through the same journey, obviously, and so we're. Each of us are remembering little parts of it, but all of us remember the fun. That's all it is, is that vibe, the fun, the. The. The feeling of family and just, you know, you're going through the same thing with people that you love, and it's. That's the thing that you remember the most. And you're right, you try to chase that, because it's just. It's magical.

[A]

Yeah, it really is.

[B]

Well, it's already. Already been all over the press that in the book, you talk about a script that was written for a Jack and Doug spinoff. And so for those listeners who don't know, Jack ends up with a guy named Doug Witter, and together they will raise Jen's daughter, Amy. So, one, tell us what this script is like, and two, tell us who we beat up. Since it didn't happen, who we beat up.

[A]

Who you beat up is the head of current programming at Sony. That's who you beat up.

[D]

Okay, gotcha.

[A]

That's where it's stopping, unfortunately. Yeah, it's a great script. I mean, the easiest way to say it is it's the Fosters with two dudes, and you've got the aesthetic of, you know, Capeside, and you can bring in all the main characters for cameos. But unfortunately, Sony wants The main characters in it all the time. That's not gonna happen.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

So apparently, I don't know, Jack, Doug and a few other characters from the show aren't enough to do a spin off. Which is to me is crazy odd because Sony is sitting on the most valuable IP out there and doing nothing with it.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, it's, it's unfortunate. So I'm hoping, you know, there'll be enough pushback where the powers that be will go. I think we take a second look at this because I think it'd be really fun. I would certainly do it. I would love to, you know, raise a bunch of rugrats. And we have Jen's kid too, that we raised and have a little house like Joey's or something on the crew. That'd be great.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. This business doesn't know what it is anymore. And so everybody, no one will pull the trigger on anything. Everybody's too scared to do anything unless it's a 400. 400 million dollar Marvel movie, which they know they'll probably make their money back. You're not gonna. Nobody's doing anything anymore.

[A]

My question is, why are they pulling the trigger on all these spin offs of like 90210 and somebody there's another show that's doing. It's not a spin off, but it's another big show that's doing one. Now they are doing Baywatch.

[C]

They're bringing back.

[A]

Are they doing Baywatch again? Yeah, I'm definitely watching that. Especially in like 4k.

[B]

Finally. I am sure between the book and the reunion event, you have been thinking a lot about Dawson's Creek. If you could go back in time and tell yourself something, then 25 years later, what would it be?

[A]

Relax and enjoy the moment. Always enjoy the moment. Try and be in the moment all the time. You know, back then I was always looking ahead and behind and everywhere else I could just make sure that I didn't make a fool of myself or that I just did the best job that I could. And now I realize that staying in that present moment is the best, best absolute thing you can do, man.

[B]

Yep. We feel very much the same way.

[D]

We can't say what everybody says, why youth is wasted on the young.

[A]

You just.

[D]

You don't have the wisdom yet. So. Yeah.

[B]

Thank you so much for being here with us. It was a pleasure to talk to you. I can't wait to read the book.

[A]

Right on, guys. Well, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

[B]

Thank you for being here.

[A]

Yeah, cheers. Bye.

[D]

You know, it's always amazing to talk to other actors, but so rare to meet one that really does have a solid piece of television history that will never go away. I mean, that again, as being a television junkie, that's something to be on a list of first of whatever. Like, I read a really random article yesterday where an episode of Leave it to Beaver, they had to keep shooting and reshooting, and the network kept pulling it because they showed the first toilet ever because no one was ever supposed to use a bathroom.

[B]

Right. An offensive toilet.

[F]

It was.

[D]

So they had to reshoot it where you could just see the top of the tank of the toilet. You couldn't actually. So it's like any. Anytime you hit one of those milestones. So, you know, first interracial kiss. Huge. Star Trek. The first gay kiss ever on camera. I mean, he's. He's got a piece of television history forever.

[C]

Are there any of those left there?

[A]

Any.

[C]

Anything that's not been on television that still will be?

[D]

Who knows? I mean, there was the first, like. Because remember, like, the old school shows, the. The. The husband and wife never shared a bed.

[B]

I mean, what about the first. First prime network TV throuple.

[D]

There you go.

[C]

That's been done, though. Has it?

[D]

No. You know what? You know, it'll be. You know how disgusting we're becoming. It's gonna become the first actual death on tv. Yep. It'll be something like that. Like we're really gonna film it. It'll be something horrible because all the good stuff is basically all the things that show progress in some way are pretty much. I think you're right. They're pretty much gone.

[A]

Right.

[B]

A really interesting, really smart idea, too, for him to write a book. You know, like, every. Everyone's starting a podcast.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

How many people are writing books?

[C]

Yeah, we should do it. Sounds like he's going about it the right way to interviewing other people, like, as opposed to just. What do I remember? Let me just talk about myself. He's, like, really trying to get the story from everybody else. I think that's really smart.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, he took the idea of a podcast and said, let's put it in words, you know, like, let's.

[D]

It's like a written podcast.

[C]

That's.

[D]

I didn't know that was a thing. It's like they made a book out of that.

[A]

Amazing.

[B]

Thank you all for listening to this episode of POD Meets World. As always, you can follow us on Instagram pod meets world show. You can send us your emails. Pod meets worldshowmail.com and we've got merch.

[D]

I don't want a merch.

[C]

For your merch to be merchy merchy merch.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

I don't know. Is that a good thing?

[D]

We're gonna have to find out.

[C]

Really murky merch is really merchant pod.

[B]

Meets world show.com writer send us out.

[C]

We love you all. Pod Dismissed Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fishel, Wilfred L And Ryder Strong, executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman, executive in charge of production Danielle Romo, producer and editor Tara Sugbash, producer Matty Moore, engineer and Boy Meets World supervisor and Easton Allen. Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. Follow us on Instagram odd meetsworldshow or email [e-mail].

[F]

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12:31 see paypal.com promoter points can be redeemed for cash and more. Paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457 this is an iHeart podcast.