Pod Meets Twirl'd: Married at First Sight 2002

Summary

Pod Meets World – Pod Meets Twirl'd: Married at First Sight 2002

Episode Date: July 24, 2026
Hosts: Danielle Fishel, Will Friedle, Rider Strong (main voices), with recurring guests/voices

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Pod Meets World team dives into the latest season of Married at First Sight, reflecting on the show's "social experiment" of marrying strangers, discussing the cast, producers, and dynamics of arranged marriages, and providing plenty of in-depth and irreverent commentary. The co-hosts analyze the couples, production style, and moments of awkwardness and insight, while drawing on their personal experiences, pop culture references, and history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Tone and Format Shift in Married at First Sight

• [04:36] Paul: Describes the newer, less-manipulative, more documentary-style presentation than previous reality TV, letting awkward moments breathe and remain ambiguous.

  "It's much more sort of like, I would say, like, documentary film style. ... you feel like the producers and everybody are just sort of a little more removed and letting people kind of just be. And letting awkward moments kind of stay awkward and ambiguous."

• [05:24] Paul: Contrasts that with earlier expectations of more manufactured drama, emphasizing that the stakes here feel more real and high because participants actually get legally married.

"Trust the Process" — The Reality of Arranged Marriage

• [06:21] Angela: Emphasizes the seriousness of the commitment on the show, referencing the recurring line throughout the season:

  "It's an arranged marriage. You are married. ... You keep hearing the same three words over and over again. Trust the process. Trust the process."

Key Couples Overview

Marissa & Adam

• [07:03] Reveal of their history — brief connection in a bar, but no past romantic baggage.
• Adam’s hyper-confidence and “douchey” personality spark mixed feelings ("Vibing to the max"; [08:00]), but also admiration for being unapologetically himself.
• [09:07] Angela and Paul discuss the value (and limits) of confidence, both for attraction and as a double-edged sword.

Felipe & Torre

• [12:52] Both hosts are charmed by this couple’s dynamic and supportive families. Felipe’s big laugh and loving family/friend speeches are highlighted as endearing.
• [13:57] Paul relates the importance of distinctive laughter to personal chemistry, referencing his wife’s memorable laugh.

Courtney & Nick

• [20:12] Courtney is introduced as a bodybuilder from a family of bodybuilders, but purposely avoids dating other bodybuilders to avoid egos.
• [20:49] Nick’s background as an MIT grad and multiple reality TV show participant becomes a big discussion point.
• [21:09] Courtney’s “non-negotiables” are discussed: “still drinks, isn’t gonna make her wear a turtleneck, and celebrates Christmas but isn’t going to church every Sunday.”
• Red Flag Alert: [25:17] Nick’s extensive reality TV career (“been on five” different shows) is met with skepticism.

  "If you've been on five different reality shows, immediately... that's weird. You're, like, jumping around looking for something." - Angela [25:36]

• [28:15] Discussion of whether Nick’s self-deprecation (“I’m a D-list celebrity”) is genuine.
• [29:44] Critique of the “gaze” of wedding-day reveals, with musings on gendered marriage traditions and the lack of LGBTQ couples in the US version.

Michelle & Cameron

• [39:38] Meet Michelle, whose driving force is starting a family; her history with fertility is foregrounded.
• [41:47] Both hosts notice Michelle’s similarity in demeanor and voice to Rowan Blanchard.
• [43:01] Red flag: Cameron, basketball coach, has never had a long-term relationship, leading to speculation about his ability to connect romantically.

  "You have not brought girls home. You've never dated anybody more. That like, weirds me out." - Paul [43:04]

• [45:00] Michelle’s parents had an arranged marriage, fitting the show's core theme.

Sean & Nikki

• [49:16] Introduction as the older, successful couple. Sean’s “Dr. Best” title is called out for being misleading (he holds a non-medical doctorate).

  "How do you feel about somebody with a doctorate referring to themselves as doctor?” - Angela [49:51] "No, you say you have a doctorate or you have a PhD. You don't say you're a doctor." - Paul [50:07]

• [52:06] Sapiosexuality is discussed—attraction to intelligence rather than physical attributes.
• [53:27] Nikki’s financial expectations ("I want someone making $200,000+") are debated, with nuance about earning/equality and domestic labor.

Memorable and Comedic Moments

• "So Many Penguins" ([03:28] & [04:14]): A running in-joke about misheard theme lyrics, which becomes a repeated gag throughout the episode.
• Piano “Recital” Disaster ([46:23]–[48:46]): Adam’s long, oblivious piano performance at his wedding dinner is called out for being technically impressive but soulless, compared to a third-grade recital or “robotic performing.”

  "He knows so many notes." - Marissa [47:05]
  "Talent is moving you emotionally with the piano." - Paul [47:30]

• "Daddy" Discourse ([33:44]): The hosts debate the trend of calling partners "Daddy."

  "Where do you stand on Daddy?" - Angela [33:44] "That actually repulses [my wife]... but if a girl was really into it, I wouldn't be completely against it." - Paul [33:47–34:07]

• RuPaul’s Drag Race Mix-up ([66:21]): Courtney’s friends think “RuPaul’s Drag Race” is about cars, setting up a lighthearted moment.

Critical Takes on Show Structure and Social Commentary

• [26:09] Discussion on the opacity of the matchmaking process, suggesting that showing more of the participants not chosen would add value and accountability.
• [30:27] and [30:49]: Show’s gendered focus, with reflection on traditional marriage tropes and possible lack of same-sex representation.
• [54:03]–[56:06] In-depth discussion on financial expectations, equity, and the persistent societal expectation that women do the majority of domestic labor—even while working.
• [44:19], [54:09]: On self-delusion and openness coming into relationships; both hosts are skeptical about participants’ true motivations and self-awareness.

Standout Quotes & Timestamps

• "It's less manipulative in terms of its presentation." – Paul [04:36]
• "Confidence. Women want a guy who walks into the room and is confident.” – Angela [09:26]
• "If you've been on five different reality shows, immediately... that's weird." – Angela [25:36]
• "He knows so many notes." – Marissa [47:05]
• "How do you feel about somebody with a doctorate referring to themselves as doctor?” – Angela [49:51]
• "Sapiosexual... means that you find intelligence sexy." – Paul [52:10]
• "I want him to just rip me on a jet ski.” – Angela, joking about Adam [52:44]
• "I guess it's about not necessarily dominance, but certainly, like a position of authority." – Paul, on the "Daddy" dynamic [34:28]
• "When did height become such a big thing?" – Angela [50:57]
• "He can play the notes. But he can't make the music. Nope." – Angela, retelling a MASH quote about Adam's piano playing [49:11]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 03:28–04:14 – "So Many Penguins" running joke
• 04:36–05:24 – Thoughts on the show’s style and emotional awkwardness
• 07:03–08:01 – Marissa & Adam’s non-history and Adam’s presentation
• 12:52–15:13 – Torre & Felipe’s family, big personalities, and the importance of a joyful laugh
• 20:12–21:37 – Courtney & Nick’s introductions, list of partner requirements
• 25:17–29:44 – Nick’s reality show past; authenticity or red flag?
• 39:38–41:49 – Michelle's family and Cameron’s lack of relationship experience
• 46:23–48:46 – Adam’s infamous piano performance
• 49:16–50:31 – “Dr.” Sean and Nikki’s financial/attraction expectations
• 66:21–66:35 – RuPaul's Drag Race confusion
• 67:09–67:47 – Nikki possibly not recognizing Sean as her groom, and the show's mastery at generating awkwardness

---

Closing Notables and History Lesson

• [68:19–70:56] “What an Arrangement” segment: Delving into a famous historical arranged marriage—Mary Tudor’s brief marriage to Louis XII and the aftermath (including the right to remarry for love).

  “She was smart with this until it almost killed her. ... Mary then turned around and chose Henry's best friend, Charles... and almost exiled his wife.” – Angela [69:17–70:11]

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Summary Takeaways

• The hosts praise Married at First Sight’s newer, subtler style and authentic awkwardness but remain critical of casting, matchmaking transparency, and the all-too-human shortcomings of the couples (especially those with a reality “career”).
• Recurring motifs (like “so many penguins” and confidence vs. self-delusion) bring levity and sharp insight.
• Social issues — gender roles, representation, income disparity, and societal expectations around attraction — are dissected alongside the show’s drama.
• The blend of nostalgia, personal anecdotes, and pop-culture history compliments the deep-dive analysis, making this a densely packed, entertaining recap and discussion—essential for fans and first-timers alike.

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End of Episode Summary

Transcript

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Paul]

Welcome to Pod meets Twirled, a podcast that began with Dancing with the Stars, wandered through castles, survived beaches, and spent an entire season debating the social hierarchy of cocktail parties. Along the way, Will and I riffed on what I thought was a hypothetical observation. Maybe arranged marriage isn't the worst idea. And apparently our producers were listening. So now we're watching Married at first sight, season 20, a show where complete strangers meet at the altar, say I do, and only then begin the awkward process of discovering whether they have anything whatsoever in common. We are Will Friedle, who loves love and believes marriage should be about the marriage and not the wedding, and Ryder Strong, who loves love and made one observation about arranged marriage and is now being forced to defend it for an entire television season. Join us as experts, therapists, family members, and complete strangers all attempt to the oldest social experiment in human history with confessionals. This is POD meets twirld.

[Angela]

All or nothing.

[Paul]

Hi, Will. Hi, Ryder. How's it going?

[Angela]

It's good, but I missed the original intro to the show, which you have not gotten a chance to get.

[Paul]

Wait, original intro to what show?

[Angela]

To Merit. At first sight. There used to be a song, it's all or nothing. It's all of nothing. And it became a big on running joke in my house because the first time we heard it, sue thought they were saying, so many penguins. So we still to this day walk

[Paul]

around going, so many penguins. That's a whole different show.

[Angela]

It's a whole.

[Paul]

Wait a minute. But nothing. That does not sound anything like a but.

[Angela]

It still does the way it trails

[Podcast Announcer]

off at the end.

[Paul]

So Many Penguins. Okay, well, that's what we should have called this whole season, then. We should have called this show so Many Penguins. That's like trap, you're smoking. That's going up there. That's now part of our show.

[Tony Ayo]

It is.

[Paul]

So I missed the original opening. Opening. So many penguins.

[Angela]

So many penguins.

[Paul]

How are you feeling about Merit at first sight, as we.

[Angela]

I'm digging it. I think the only show I haven't been able to get into for our entire journey so far is in the City. This. I'm. I'm in hook, line, and sinker once again with the show. I've seen it before. I think it's great.

[Paul]

So this show, to me, in some ways, you know, it's. It's. It's less manipulative in terms of its presentation. It's much more sort of like, I would say, like, documentary film style. Like, it's sort of like more neutral. You feel like the producers and everybody are just sort of a little more removed and letting people kind of just be. And letting awkward moments kind of stay awkward and ambiguous. Like, I'm not always sure what exactly is happening. We'll get into it. But, like, the end of this second episode, I was A little like, what exactly is happening? And they don't quite answer it. They don't push you. And I. I think that's incredibly. I like that better. I think that's better filmmaking, better storytelling. It is making me more awkward. Like, my heart is kind of racing at times. I'm like, ugh.

[Angela]

Right? That's what I had in. In the city.

[Paul]

Yeah. I don't know, man.

[Tony Ayo]

Yeah.

[Paul]

In the city. I guess I was sort of more prepared for it to be. Feel more manufactured. And I felt like the people kind of knew what they were getting into. In this case, the stakes are real. These people want to get married.

[Angela]

Yeah. And legally do.

[Paul]

And legally do. I'm. I'm staying with a friend in Chicago right now. I'm on my road trip across the country. I'm staying with a friend who, when I said what. What I was coming in this room to record, she was like, oh, my God. And apparently they had a friend who was asked. He went through the process, got into Onto Married at first sight and turned it down because he got. And I was like, wait, so he didn't get picked? And they were like, no, he got picked. He just. Once he realized how real it was because he hadn't watched the show, I guess. So he was like. He pulled the plug. Yeah. Because he was like, no, this is like real marriage. I can't do that. He thought it was going to be a sort of hokey. And I was like, no, it. That's the thing.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

It's a little.

[Angela]

You're married.

[Paul]

It's.

[Angela]

It's an arranged marriage. You are married. Yeah. This is. You know, and. And there's. There's. It's funny because there's times where I remember hearing seasons past, and I'm sure we're going to hear it a lot this season coming up, too, when people start to hit different potholes or whatever you hear. You keep hearing the same three words over and over again. Trust the process. Trust the process.

[Paul]

Really?

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Say that to each other.

[Cal Penn]

Or.

[Kyle MacLachlan]

Or.

[Angela]

Or the. They're the experts, quote, unquote, say it to them like, there's a reason we put you together. There's a reason that you were chosen to do this. Trust the process. Trust the process. So I'm. I'm interested to see how it's going to work out this season because I've already got my favorites, and somewhere I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Yeah. Yeah.

[Paul]

All right. Well, the second episode. We are back with Marissa and Adam. Lilz are in that one moment of yeah, you were, but totally wrong. It also wasn't as big of a deal as they, of course made it out to be, which was when they showed them ending the last episode with I know him. It was sort of like, oh, God, do these. Does this couple have a history? That is not going to be good. Turns out they did have a history, but it's that they hit on each other, that he hit on her at a bar and got her number and then they never actually went on a date, but they both remembered each other, which I did find interesting. It was like there was still this immediate connection. Yeah, they never played, they never followed through with it. But anyway, so, yeah, so they had talked for under a minute and then we get to their little vow speeches, moments, and she says, she talks about being raised by a strong mom and kindness and showing up for each other. And Adam Drew to Forbes says he's vibing to the max.

[Angela]

Vibing to the.

[Paul]

Vibing to the max.

[Angela]

This guy, he's. He's such a douche that I'm almost starting to like him. Does that make sense? Because it's so ridiculous.

[Paul]

Purely himself. Like, it's, it's. Yeah, I know. He's entertaining for sure.

[Angela]

Affected. It's like everything, it feels like, you know, you know, he does it later, forever, episode after episode, just ripping the jet skis.

[Paul]

And I know, I know in some ways a guy like this, I'm always like, I kind of wish I had a little of that confidence, you know, like he goes through the world, he goes through the world thinking he's figured it all out.

[Angela]

Yeah, he's doing it right.

[Paul]

With six five. Gentlemen, I'm a scholar. Six five.

[Angela]

He's six five.

[Paul]

Just saying, just saying.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

So true.

[Paul]

And that's like, you know, I mean, yeah, it's insufferable.

[Martha Stewart]

Yeah.

[Paul]

But also, you know, and I always wonder about this, like, how much delusion is good, how much self delusion is good? Because, you know, I've gone through periods of my life crippled by self doubt and anxiety. And then you look back on those times, you're like, what were you worried about, dude? You shouldn't have been that insecure or whatever. Right?

[Angela]

So in some ways, and I think you'll be happier, just go and find the vast majority of women. And I'm again, I know nothing of women. I know nothing of the dating world. However, I found with my single friends, whoever, height, weight, none of that stuff matters nearly as much as when you ask a woman what she wants. And one of the things they keep talking around is confidence.

[Paul]

Confidence.

[Angela]

Women want a guy who walks into the room and is confident.

[Paul]

I feel the same way.

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jeff Hayes]

Men, too.

[Angela]

Absolutely.

[Paul]

You're right. It's attraction. Yeah, I just think it's attraction. Like, I just think when somebody is themselves right. When they are confident. But I do think he takes. It's a spurgeon and it's all. But it's comical. If you like those things. If you like those things. If you like healthy eating, jet skis and really long piano playing.

[Angela]

Really long piano soliloquies. That was my favorite scene of any show I've ever seen in my entire life.

[Paul]

We'll get to it. Well, they talk about the fact that he had a tank on when he hit on her. And he calls him. This is. He does say that's cringy. He talks about himself being a little cringy at that moment.

[Angela]

Meaning a tank top, right? Yeah, that he said was a little bit. And he was a little bit. It was almost like a crop tank top at a bar.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah, but that's his vibe, man. He's like jumping off the jet ski to go get a.

[Angela]

Okay, so are we. Are we Picturing then it's 12:30 in the afternoon. He's been. He's been jet skiing and he stopped at some local bar to grab something to eat. And he met her. Because that's different than wearing a tank top at 11 o' clock at night at a dance club.

[Paul]

Yeah. Well, where are they? Do we know where?

[Angela]

Yeah, they're in Seattle.

[Martha Stewart]

Seattle?

[Paul]

Yeah. You're not wearing a tank top in midnight in Seattle, Florida or something. I'd be like, right.

[Angela]

That's what I'm like, havasu or something.

[Paul]

Time of year in Seattle where you can do it at night. So, yeah, it was probably during the day.

[Martha Stewart]

It's probably during the day.

[Angela]

Give them the benefit of the doubt. We'll give them the benefit of the douche.

[Paul]

Oh, my God. That's my new favorite benefit of the douche for Adam. All right. There is attraction here. They start talking, and I feel like she's clearly playing along. And she's like, I loved your gifts. You're like, did you?

[Martha Stewart]

Yeah.

[Paul]

But then she's like, pickleball. I love pickleball. Now I do. Now I'm like, okay.

[Angela]

She's trying.

[Paul]

She's trying. And she even tries to the extent where she downplays her own reading because he's like, well, I got your book. I was like, whoa. Are you one of those People who, like, reads all day. And she's like, no. Oh, no. But then he says, I don't drink. And you can see her kind of like take that moment of like, oh, that's like the one moment where she's not going to play it off.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Funny.

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Angela]

It seems like she might drink. She might drink.

[Paul]

Yeah. Or it's just her. So, you know, I feel like her social life is built around.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Having drinks with friends.

[Angela]

We talked about. I mean, you should stop taking shots of Fireball directly from the plastic things at a certain age in your life. I mean, guy, girl, whatever. If you're still housing Fireball directly from the gas station, then, yeah, there's, there's. There might be an issue. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, exactly. It's like, gross.

[Paul]

Cinnamon flavored, right? That's the whole deal.

[Angela]

Yeah, exactly. It's made. It's made to drink.

[Paul]

At 19, like my high school graduation night, we drank Goldschlager.

[Angela]

Oh, God, it's up there. The Jagermeister.

[Paul]

We wanted to find Goldschlager, we couldn't. So what we found was like a Goldschlager imitation.

[Angela]

Tinschlger.

[Paul]

No, Braunschlager. Fool's Gold.

[Angela]

Just called Pyre Schlager.

[Tony Ayo]

It was.

[Paul]

It was like. It was a cinnamon flavored liqueur that had red crystals in it. Like red. It basically tasted like. What's the cinnamon gum?

[Angela]

Oh, Big red.

[Paul]

It tasted like big Red as alcohol. It was so disgusting. Definitely vomited that night. Graduating from high school.

[Martha Stewart]

Yuck.

[Angela]

Yuck.

[Paul]

All right, well, then they talk about the family thing, and he is dismissive of his entire family, which we've already kind of established, which. Which is, I don't think, a good look. Katsu, Tori and Felipe. Macy gives a speech. Her sister says she wants a husband who will take care of her sister the way that she has taken care of her, which is really nice. Then Jeremy gets up. Felipe's friend starts teasing Felipe for his ego, then gets real, says he's always having the most fun and, you know, seems like Felipe's a beloved friend kind of. Kind of digging this couple. No, they're great. They're great.

[Angela]

I think they're great.

[Paul]

They're one of my favorites. They really are.

[Angela]

I think they got a shot. Yep.

[Paul]

And then his sister gets up and says, thought this day would never come. And then we hear Felipe's very loud laugh for the really, I think, the first time. And she makes a joke. If you could put up with his dance moves and his laughter, which I totally. I Was like, oh, he's got one of those big laughs. Which is like a love it or hate it kind of moment. You know, like, yeah, I'm somebody who loves people's big laughs. I don't care how dull your laugh is, how it's one of those things. Have I told you the story about Alex and her laughter?

[T-Mobile Customer]

No.

[Paul]

Oh my God. So there's this. I definitely have told you the story. You probably just don't remember because I think I told it on the podcast. But there's a. My wife has a very big laugh. She's a big laugher. She's a very high pitched laugh. And like me, some would say I cackle. And there is a. There was a comedy duo, Garfunkel and Oates. They're like a singing. It's right. They're famous. They're both become famous actors. I'm blanking on both their names. But anyway, they used to just do this comedy duo where they would sing comedy songs and there's a YouTube video of them. We were at this concert when we first saw them and then we found the YouTube video like two years later of the concert we were at. And you can hear Alex above the audience the whole time. And sure enough, like, one of the first comments on the YouTube video was like, they're really funny. But that lady's laugh is driving me. But I love it. I love the laugh.

[Cal Penn]

I do too.

[Angela]

I'm the same way.

[Paul]

I love a big laugh. I think when people are free to laugh, it's just impressive.

[Angela]

Like that's also as a guy who likes to make people laugh, you love being able to hear those sharp laughs in the audience. Love it.

[Paul]

We remember the laughs of all of our writers. Like we know our specific laughs.

[Angela]

You know Ken Kuda's laugh the second year.

[Paul]

Yeah, we remember our writers laughs. And I think the more distinct the better, actually.

[Angela]

Agreed.

[T-Mobile Customer]

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[Kyle MacLachlan]

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[Cal Penn]

hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, host of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with comedian Emily Lynn to talk about the Audible Original series Heads Will Roll. Heir Apparent, the second installment of the gloriously unhinged fantasy comedy she co created with her sister Kate McKinnon. An evil queen has to produce an heir before her 40th birthday, or a swamp demon comes to collect and her best friend is a cursed raven who gets turned into a toad.

[Paul]

There was only one character that immediately we were like, we need Richard Kind for this. We had written this love addict, this like neurotic love addict. And originally we were just calling him General Richard Kind. And he was like, could you change my name? I don't necessarily want to be associated with this freak. And we were happy to do that.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to hearsay on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tony Ayo]

This is Tony Ayo from the Real Report with Tony Ayo and Uncle Murder. You ever notice how everything keeps going up? Rents going up? Streaming services are going up? Even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cost extra. But with Boost Mobile, you and your phone bill don't have to play the Will this Go Up Soon? Game because Boost Mobile has an unlimited talk, text and data plan at a price, and that'll never go up. It's the same price you'll pay for life, meaning you're set to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan. While the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you, Boost Mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price. For life. Imagine something in your budget actually staying the same. You'll pay the same for unlimited wireless, when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s and when you're posting mirror selfies in retirement, some things never change. Switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up. Only at boost mobile. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.

[Paul]

It's Mecca and Logic talking.

[Angela]

Yeah, he's a big personality.

[Paul]

Logic man, this guy. Logic. And he immediately is, like, backtracking on the cheek thing, like, with his.

[Angela]

Yeah, well, I think he didn't. I think he's trying to. They just kept bringing it up, too. And it was like, I'm. I was hoping that this was a producer's just edit, where really there was three conversations that took place the entire night that kind of brushed slightly on the cheek thing, but they edited together to make it look bigger than it was because they dwelled on this a lot, where it's like, well, what did you think of that? And what do you think? And it's like, okay.

[Martha Stewart]

She.

[Paul]

You know, I think he's just. The dad is just one of those guys who just says whatever's funniest in the moment.

[Angela]

Yeah, I think so.

[Paul]

Because he just is such a big personality. To a detriment, I think.

[Angela]

I don't. I agree 100%.

[Paul]

I was kind of like, dude, this is your son's day.

[Angela]

No, it's Logic's day. There's a camera around, and he wants to be on tv. That's what it came out. That's what it comes out to. To me, it seems like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Announcer]

All right.

[Paul]

Well, then we're introduced to Courtney and Nick, and we get to see this couple. We had met her. We'd met both of them briefly in the first episode, but now we get into their story. Courtney is a bodybuilder from a family of bodybuilders, which I've never even heard of such a thing.

[Angela]

Dreaded, I know. Both shredded.

[Paul]

But then I love that she doesn't want a bodybuilder because she doesn't want the ego.

[Angela]

Right.

[Paul]

She's fascinating that she knows that about bodybuilders, and yet she is one herself, or has been one. But she does want somebody who's athletic, at least plays the sport. Got to Nick, who played lacrosse and then went to mit, which is impressive.

[Angela]

Yeah, I'll say.

[Paul]

Yeah. And then she does this thing where she says she wants. She lists off. She wants somebody who still drinks. Isn't gonna make her Wear a turtleneck and celebrates Christmas, but isn't gonna go to church every Sunday. I just love how uniquely specific this is, you know? And I think she's right on, like, this is a good list to have. Like, I'm not sure what the turtleneck thing means. How did you interpret the turmoil?

[Angela]

I think what it means is essentially isn't. Doesn't want to. Is secure enough in their relationship that she can kind of dress how she wants and is not gonna be like, hey, put on. Put on more respectable clothes than that if we're gonna go out.

[Paul]

That's how I.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

Okay.

[Paul]

Like, she could be a little free with her body.

[Angela]

Yeah. Okay.

[Paul]

I thought maybe just she thought, like, turtlenecks meant that you were, like, stuffy and reserved and, like, which is kind of the same thing. But.

[Angela]

Yeah, I don't know. I think it's more like, allows me to be me and knows that is secure enough to know I'm coming home with you. So if I want to dress a little sexy, it's for you, not for everybody else.

[Paul]

Okay, cool.

[Angela]

That's kind of what I took from that.

[Paul]

Okay, cool. I like that interpretation. All right. Then they have this whole, like, she wants him to the political conversation. She wants him to be conservative. She doesn't want to date a liberal. But then, of course, she kind of makes this like, she's economically conservative, but women have a right to choose, so they're trying to nail this down. He claims that he's mostly conservative but has liberal views. But then when the producers ask him to name one issue. I get it. So I don't know if he's.

[Angela]

MIT's mostly math related. I know.

[Paul]

Yeah. So you don't think he. I thought maybe he was just being coy and he didn't want to, like, say anything. I think in this.

[Angela]

I think in the climate that we live in right now, you say one wrong weird thing politically, and all of a sudden half the country instantly hates you.

[Paul]

That's why I never was holding back.

[Angela]

Or do you think, oh, I think you have to. In this day and age. I'm amazed she even says she wants to date a conservative.

[Paul]

But it does seem like an important conversation.

[Angela]

I think hugely important. But how much you're going to say on camera and how much you're going to say to your partner might be

[Paul]

two completely different things. Your wedding, I think you have.

[Angela]

I get it. It could have been in all the paperwork.

[Paul]

I'm surprised they don't have more of these conversations. But by the way, it's A moot point. The second she can't remember what January 6th means at that point, I thought it was so cool, because Paul's like, all right, just you saying that you don't remember that is helpful because that means it's not really that political.

[Angela]

That's. Now, here's my question. Do you believe she didn't truly know what it was, or do you believe that she didn't want to talk about it? I did. I watched it twice. And I couldn't.

[Paul]

No, I thought she truly didn't know. I thought she truly was like. I think when she meant political, she has certain things she cares about, which I think she expressed, which is that she wants somebody who's economically conservative, but then she has the woman's right to choose. Like, those are pretty clear things. Sure, sure. But the fact that she doesn't remember that January 6th is a date or that anything big happened means that she's not on one side of the divide clearly enough to make it an issue. Do you know what I mean?

[Angela]

Yeah. Like, her life doesn't revolve around politics.

[Paul]

No. And the fact that he couldn't remember anything.

[Angela]

Right.

[Paul]

Or they were both being coy.

[Angela]

That's what I'm wondering.

[Paul]

If they're for each other.

[Angela]

Coy. Right. Either way, they're right for each other

[Paul]

because they gave the same answer, which is, no, politics are important, but then not important enough to actually take a step stance in the kind of the major issues of the day right now. So, okay, yeah. She talks about being cheated on. Nick talks about how he won't cheat, never cheat. And then Paul has this moment with her where he's like, you're a compelling person, but you don't think you are incredible. And she kind of almost breaks down, which I thought was interesting.

[Angela]

Like, I really like her, by the way. She's very cool, very confident.

[Paul]

She's very, like, interesting and outgoing. Yeah, she's cool.

[Angela]

I also think she's. And we'll get into it. Very aware of some possible red flag.

[Paul]

Yeah, totally.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

In general, I like almost everybody on this show.

[Angela]

Me too.

[Paul]

Except for the most part.

[Angela]

Except Adam.

[Tony Ayo]

Yeah.

[Paul]

But also even Adam, like you were saying, he's such a douche. It's almost like, okay, he's not pretending to be anything. He's not.

[Angela]

No. But the thing he's pretending to be, I'm not. I don't like very much. Yeah, that's exactly.

[Paul]

But that's the thing.

[Angela]

Yeah, it's the thing he's pretending to be is not that Good. A thing. So it's a little strange.

[Martha Stewart]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Surprisingly, I would say. Yeah, I would say so. Well, we'll get into it, because there are. The dudes in general are a little like. Like, Nick is not like her. What she sees as red flags, which I think you were alluding to about the reality show thing is a red flag for me too, you know?

[Angela]

Yeah, me too.

[Paul]

But he plays against it. He actually. His actual, like, what he says on screen and how he is. I'm like, dude, you're great.

[Angela]

Yeah, he's great for reality tv. That's what I'm. I mean, again, it's. How many reality shows can you be on before the person you're with is like, dude, do you really want to be in this, or are you on to the next reality show?

[Paul]

All right, so that ties into what we see next in the show, which is that he has been on the Circle and Perfect Match and apparently more. They only mentioned those two at this point. Later, we get some more, but turns out he's been on, like, five, which is pretty intense.

[Martha Stewart]

That's a lot.

[Angela]

Maddie.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Angela]

Red flag. If you've been on five different reality shows, immediately.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Paul]

That's weird. That's weird. You're, like, jumping around looking for something.

[Angela]

Yes. You want to be a reality television star. That's what you want. And this is the next one that cast you. I'm sorry. That's how I look at it. Okay.

[Paul]

Well, our matchmakers say that, you know, that Nick's challenge is going to be to be vulnerable. They describe Courtney as unedited, unfiltered, and maybe a foil for his filteredness. And then they say this thing. This is the type of match a good ante would make. It's just an interesting statement.

[Danielle Fishel]

I'm like.

[Paul]

As opposed to what? I don't know what that means exactly. This whole matchmaking thing, it's a little in the dark to me.

[Angela]

It seems like you're throwing darts.

[Paul]

Well, kind of. But I guess what would be really helpful is if we saw some of the alternatives. Each time they show these, they're already showing the people that they've chosen. So there's a sense of inevitability to the editing, where we're kind of like, they were a good match, but it would be really interesting to see the ones that didn't make the cut for each person.

[Angela]

I'm pretty sure that the first seasons of the show, if memory serves, they did that. It was like 50 women in a room in front of all the matchmakers. And then 50 men in the room in front of all the matchmakers, interview after interview after that would make so pretty sure that's what it was to

[Paul]

me as far as being able to evaluate. Because we can't evaluate this. It's sort of like astrology at this point. They say stuff that we then get to see play out. But because they said it, we're what we're thinking on those terms. Do you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, it's like, what can you do?

[Angela]

It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Paul]

Exactly. And it's a little like I would, I can't feel like I don't feel equipped to evaluate the matchmakers competency basically.

[Angela]

Right.

[Paul]

Like I feel like what we see is them creating the show that we're seeing. So it's like, yes, of course. You picked a couple that seem like they're pretty great for each other and.

[Angela]

Yeah, okay.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Angela]

The process was a lot more in depth than the first couple seasons of memory.

[Paul]

Interesting.

[Angela]

And so it was like if there were 50 people there, 40 of them didn't get picked and then 40 of the guys didn't get picked and the 10 that did, we found your mat. That's why, like they're still trying to keep the moment alive for the, for the television audience of hey, guess what, we found your match.

[Paul]

Right.

[Angela]

But there's no stakes to it because we already know you're, we're half the

[Paul]

time you're not doing, they're not doing that because it's kind of a useless moment at this point. It's like.

[Angela]

And that used to be a big thing where they would come up to somebody and be like, go to their house and be like, we actually, actually we found your match.

[Paul]

Interesting.

[Angela]

And so you're on the show where now it's just. Yeah, yeah. A lot different.

[Paul]

And then we see Nick with his friends on the wedding day. His friends didn't really want him to do another reality show, which I think is funny, especially realizing later one of them was from like more than what

[Angela]

Disney say, more than one. He's like, I got a couple friends here from my reality. It's like even your friends were cast.

[Paul]

But then he does make this joke about himself being a D list celebrity, which I found endearing. You know, like, he's not saying, like he's not, he's not super proud of the reality show thing. Like, it's not like he's hoping that.

[Angela]

I know, I think it's fake. I'm sorry. I think he's playing against type. Because he doesn't want to be like, yeah, I'm a big reality star. He's like, no, I'm just. I'm a D level celebrity, man. It doesn't even count. I mean, come on. But I'm gonna be on 14 reality shows.

[Paul]

Okay, I know, but I do like what he says when his friend is like, did you prepare what you're gonna say? And he's like, no, I just kind of wanna be myself. Authenticity, like my vibe or the thing I'm gonna go with.

[Angela]

And I'm authentic on all the reality shows I'm on.

[Paul]

Oh, man.

[Angela]

I'm telling you, it's a giant red flag. It is. It's just a big old red flag that you. This is what you do. This is your life, is you want to be on reality shows, and this is the next one you're on.

[Paul]

All right, well, Nick's dad shows up, gives him a pep talk. His dad was like, very TV dad, like, to me, kind of Southernly, like. Nick starts crying.

[Martha Stewart]

All right?

[Paul]

Nick walks out. Everyone's impressed with his looks. And then Courtney with her dad, she's pretty stressed and crying. And this. This whole reveal thing with the bride coming out, you know, it's puts a lot of pressure on the woman in these situations. Like, it's very male, gazy, you know what I mean? Like, it's very much prioritizing the reveal of the gorgeous bride as the moment of the entire show. It's a lot. I'm not a huge fan, but it's

[Angela]

even regular weddings that's now the moment they want to capture. A regular wedding has a second photo shoot where it's just the groom turning around. And it's his expression for scenes.

[Paul]

Obviously they've met each other before. Like, in this case, this is the entire show is. Is like basically about whether the man is going to be interested and impressed with the girls. The vision of the woman walking down the aisle.

[Angela]

Well, I say, can't you say the same? It's the same. It's. It's still the bride's day. Because they say it's. The wedding's more about the bride, but she's also. It's the reveal of turning around. If she. I mean, we saw that later with Nikki and Sean where Sean turns around and he's like, hell, yes. And Nikki, you can tell, is like, oh, boy. So, I mean, I think it's a dual thing. It's just groom comes in first, then comes the bride. I mean, that's always the way it is.

[Paul]

All right.

[Kyle MacLachlan]

I don't know.

[Paul]

I definitely see it more as, like, she's the prize. You know?

[Angela]

She's the prize.

[Paul]

Oh, that's. Yeah, that's. The gendered dynamics of marriages in general. Have they ever done a gay wedding on this show?

[Angela]

Not that I've seen, but maybe they might have. I mean, I've missed 15 seasons in there, so perhaps, but I don't know.

[Paul]

I have a feeling they haven't. I have a feeling.

[Angela]

I have a feeling they haven't.

[Paul]

Either there's something sort of patriarchal and gendered about this show in general, I would say, or it's conservative in that sense. Do you know what I mean? It's old school traditional. Even though the point of the show is sort of anti tradition. The point of the show is like, we're gonna take this tradition to its extreme. We're testing this tradition.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

And we're putting it to the test. And so in some ways, it kind of has to remain traditional. Does that make sense?

[Angela]

Like.

[Paul]

Yeah, it. It has to lean into certain tropes of the tradition.

[Angela]

They haven't had same sex couples on the US Version. Okay.

[Commercial Voice]

Okay.

[Angela]

I can tell you that statistically speaking, if they did, there's a better chance they're still together than a heterocouple, because

[Paul]

homosexual couples have better success rates.

[Angela]

Oh, yeah. Way better success rates.

[Paul]

Yeah. It kind of makes sense to me.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Martha Stewart]

Yeah.

[Paul]

All right. Less. Less social pressure.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

To, like, force each other to be.

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Angela]

Yep.

[Paul]

All right.

[Tony Ayo]

All right.

[Paul]

Well, we cut to a commercial on his look, of course. Always. Then we see when we come back, they both appreciate each other's looks. They are both beautiful people. Of course they're both. They're both stunning.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

They give nice speeches. He. I mean, he strikes me as a little goofy in a way that I was like, is she gonna like this? But then she, like, imitated his. Like, I was like, oh, they are kind of similar. You know, they're both like pretty people who know that they're attractive, but then also can be, you know, kind of.

[Angela]

But he clearly feels comfortable on camera. I mean, he clearly feels like he's. This is my fifth reality show. When you can see that there's a. Every other couple. Everybody else walks out there. There isn't the comfortability. You've got the dual. You know, the dual uncomfortableness of it's my wedding day. I've never met this person, and I'm on a reality TV show. He doesn't have to worry about the latter. He's very Much used to it. And again, I'm trying not to hold it against him, but it is a big red flag when this is just another television show you've been on. I guess I would say if you'd been on a reality television show before, there's a good chance you could have just done it on a lark. Like, hey, my friends entered me. I thought it'd be fun. Whatever. When you've done five, this is what you want to do with your life, right? Yeah.

[Paul]

There's a big difference. It's a career at that point, which is fine. It means you're an influencer. You're like, you are a reality show person. Absolutely.

[Angela]

But this is now the new one.

[Paul]

Value the marriage aspect of this.

[Angela]

And of course, she's going to be thinking twice about that as her bridesmaids are going, oh, we watched him on the whatever, and we saw him on this. And she's asking all his friends, is this gonna be like, is this a thing?

[Paul]

No, I think she's right to question it.

[Angela]

Hell, yes.

[Paul]

But I don't. Yeah, I don't know. I guess maybe I just like them both, so I'm rooting for him.

[Angela]

I don't dislike him. I don't dislike him. I, I, I trust him completely. Yeah, I question his motives, but I don't dislike him.

[Paul]

They talk a little bit after the ceremony and they seem to be getting along well. Yeah, he apparently likes to be called Daddy. Yikes.

[Angela]

Where do you stand on Daddy?

[Paul]

I mean, it's so not my wife. Like, it's like that actually, like, repulses her, like, the idea, so. No, but I think if my wife, if I was with a girl who was really into it, I wouldn't be completely against it because I do like being a dad. You know what I mean? Like, I like being right.

[Angela]

But I don't think that's what the way they say it, that's what it means. I don't think it's like I'm doing it because you're a great father. I don't think that's what your woman looking at you while you're on top of her and she calls you Daddy is about. So, yeah, I've always found that. Again, I'm, hey, everybody's sexual whatever is their own sexual whatever. But it was never my thing either, where it's like, right, let's not.

[Paul]

I guess it's about, it's about not necessarily dominance, but certainly, like a position of authority.

[Angela]

Yeah, there's a submissive quality.

[Paul]

Once I became a father I did enjoy having a position of authority like that gave me confidence and made me feel cool and better in a way that I never thought was a thing until I was a dad. And then I was like, oh, I like being a dad. Like I like being the authority in this room. Like when I'm around a bunch of kids or when I'm like, I like being like that gave me a sense of confidence. So I could see that that gives you like a rush to be. But it's not sexual for me. Cause it never has been. But I've just never been in that situation since I've been a father.

[Angela]

And again, not my thing either. But hey, go, you go. Whatever floats your boat.

[Kyle MacLachlan]

Daddy.

[Paul]

You could call me daddy though. Oh girl. Well, it's so what I guess was weird to me is that it was like his gay friend pretending to catfish him, calling him daddy, which he then was still saying that he liked. Which I was like, wait, there's some layers here that I'm not.

[Angela]

I'm not.

[Paul]

The layers are a little. Yeah, yeah.

[Angela]

Agree

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[Kyle MacLachlan]

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[Cal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, the host of Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week I'm sitting down with author Matt Dinnaman and narrator Jeff Hayes to talk about dungeon crawler Carl Matt had one line in a notebook from middle school alien game show. It took him until 2019 to finally write it, but what came out was an out of this world audiobook phenomenon. We talked about that origin talking cat with a charisma stat that breaks the game and what takes to voice an entire world.

[Jeff Hayes]

Fiction is bull, so you gotta trick me into caring about what you're talking about. And that's always what I have thought of as my job. So as a narrator I always want to keep you engaged by making you feel as if I care as a narrator. And when I do dialogue, I don't want to tell you what the characters are saying I want you to hear firsthand.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tony Ayo]

This is Tony Ayo from the Real Report with Tony Ayo and Uncle Murder. You ever notice how everything keeps going up? Rents going up? Streaming services are going up? Even your favorite burrito spot suddenly thinks salsa should cost extra. But with Boost Mobile, you you and your phone bill don't have to play the Willis Go up Soon game because Boost Mobile has an unlimited talk, text and data plan at a price that'll never go up. It's the same price you'll pay for life, meaning you're set to never worry about your bill increasing again for as long as you're on the plan while the world keeps finding new ways to nickel and dime you. Boost Mobile gives you unlimited wireless at one set price for life. Imagine something in your budget actually staying the same. You'll pay the same for unlimited wireless when you're posting mirror selfies in your 20s. And when you're posting mirror selfies in retirement, some things never change. Switch now for unlimited wireless at a price that'll never go up. Only at boost mobile. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay $25 a month as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan.

[Paul]

Cut to Michelle, once a guy who was dull and into sports. This is our first time meeting her. We see her with her friend Tam. He says they don't think they're going to match you up with an uggo. Second uggo Rapper second uggo.

[Angela]

Uggo times two.

[Paul]

Uggo with the uggs. We find out that she had her eggs frozen when she was 26. Really wants to have babies.

[Angela]

Hey, man, fibroids are no joke. Really? I don't know. Oh, yeah, no, fibroids are no joke. They can be unbelievably painful and damaging. Yeah, they're.

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Angela]

No joke at all.

[Paul]

I like Michelle, but we don't really learn that much about her, do we?

[Angela]

No.

[Paul]

Because I'm realizing, I'm looking at my notes, I'm like, do I know what she does? What does she do for a living? Do we know? Like, I don't think we do. I mean, just compared to everybody else. Like, when I think about, like Bel Jolie as a singer songwriter, like, we know kind of what Courtney is, a bodybuilder. And we kind of know what everybody does. Like Michelle. I like her, but I don't actually. I realize. And I don't know if I know that much.

[Angela]

And it's funny because I know about Cameron. Cameron's a basketball coach.

[Paul]

Yeah. I guess her story is more about wanting to have kids and the fiber.

[Angela]

She seems to also come from a very tight knit family. Yeah.

[Paul]

Which is great. And we'll get into it. But like her dad not wanting to be on camera is like. In some ways I can totally understand that.

[Angela]

Yeah, me too. Me too.

[Paul]

Paul and Lisa talking about Cameron say he's him, but he doesn't realize he's him. Which is another one of these sort of like weird quotes that I was like, kind of inane. But then I thought about it. That sentence doesn't apply to Adam.

[Martha Stewart]

Right.

[Paul]

Like Adam realizes who he is and is. So I kind of like. Then I was like, yeah, if I. If. But as a statement, I mean, like

[Angela]

I said, it's Adam's the kind of guy who'll talk about himself in the third person and say things like, if you don't like Adam, that's not an Adam.

[Paul]

I don't like you.

[Commercial Voice]

Yeah.

[Angela]

You know, stuff like that.

[Paul]

It's like, okay, not Adam's fault. Don't hate the player. Exactly. All right, so Cameron's a basketball coach. Never been in a long term relationship. And so at this point, when I looked at Michelle, did she remind you of anybody at all?

[Angela]

She reminds me of somebody. And I can't think of who.

[Paul]

Rowan Blanchard.

[Angela]

Is that who it is?

[Paul]

She looks like Rowan Blanchard.

[Angela]

Is that who it is? Because sitting there, I'm like, who the hell is this?

[Paul]

It's kind of eerie. It's kind of eerie, like. And I think it's actually the way she talks. And you know, I knew Rowan when she was.

[Angela]

Maybe I just saw Rowan like a month ago.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, really?

[Paul]

I haven't seen Rowan since she was. Since we finished Girl Meets World, so it's been years, but. And I've only seen photos.

[Angela]

Totally see that.

[Paul]

It's really interesting because like. Yeah, yeah, they're different ethnicities. Like I don't think Rowan is Asian at all. If I'm remembering correctly, she's Persian. Or. I don't know. But they look a lot alike.

[Angela]

I can see that.

[Paul]

Similar vibes, similar faces. Very fascinating.

[Angela]

Maybe that's why it is.

[Podcast Announcer]

Okay.

[Paul]

Yeah, she totally. Yeah. By the way, I saw her a month ago.

[Angela]

She looked great. She sounds like she's doing great. She's on her new show.

[Paul]

She's Testaments. Yeah, I gotta watch Testaments. I know she's doing really well.

[Angela]

Awesome. Yeah, I can. Oh my God. Like, look at that.

[Paul]

See it now?

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Dude, they have similar faces. And the way they talk, it was so funny. Cuz I was like, who do you remind me? I was like, it's rowan. Interesting.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

100% wedding day. Cameron doesn't even know what finger the ring goes on. Sit there in the name, buddy. His family talks about how they haven't met any girls. I think this is a red flag, man.

[Angela]

Agreed. A thousand percent. That's weird, dude.

[Paul]

You have not brought girls home. You've never dated anybody more. I'm. That like, weirds me out. I don't know, dude.

[Angela]

You know what I went through mental health wise? How little I went out, how little I dated. I didn't leave my house for seven years. I was in two, two or more year relationships before I met my wife.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Angela]

And I never. I barely left my house.

[Paul]

Right. So how.

[Angela]

I mean, how do you. How do you get to be 37?

[Paul]

I know, man.

[Angela]

You don't have you. When you're 19. You don't meet somebody for a year, a year and a half. Everybody does that. Yeah, there's. It's.

[Paul]

It's something. It's a little like. I don't know, I get like kind of asexual vibes from him. Interesting. If that makes sense. Like he just doesn't seem like he's super driven by. He's driven mentally by the idea of having a partner. But I don't know if he's driven like physically or like emotionally by like wanting a partner. Yeah, he's very awkward even with her. Like once they meet, like it's not a. Like, ah. I know how to like put my body with another person or, like. And it just seems like. And I don't know if that's just the experience or if there's something maybe that's just not there for him, you know? So it's interesting because I'm like, intellectually, he keeps saying all this stuff about, I want love, I want to be married, but does his body feel that way?

[Angela]

Does this.

[Paul]

You know, does his soul. I don't know how else to think about it. Like, I don't know. It's a weird.

[Angela]

I'm guessing the last thing man or woman wants in their partner when they meet somebody is, oh, I have to teach you how to be in a relationship from the bottom up. But that's your husband.

[Paul]

That's what Adam wants, though, right?

[Angela]

Perfect example. I'll teach her, like, oh, my God. But maybe.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[T-Mobile Customer]

I don't know.

[Paul]

So we see Michelle with her family, and this is where we find out that her dad is not comfortable being on camera, which I totally get. And then he writes this heartbreaking letter, which I thought was great. Luckily, her mom talks about how tall is beautiful, which sets up good because this guy's giant.

[Angela]

And is it her grandmother who was in an arranged marriage herself?

[Paul]

Her mom and dad were in arranged marriage. Yeah. So there you go.

[Martha Stewart]

Crazy.

[Paul]

Yeah. Wedding day. He walks out. Her family's happy. He's tall. Of course, once she walks down the aisle, his assessment is, you look beautiful. Like a businessman assessing. I mean, he's just. My brain is that he's not into it.

[Angela]

He's just very awkward, too, though.

[Paul]

And I think he's just like, you are beautiful. Like, okay. Like, it's not, like, in his, like, DNA in a way. I don't know.

[Angela]

I know. I think he's also just a very awkward guy who's now also on camera and getting married to a stranger.

[Kyle MacLachlan]

Right?

[Paul]

Oh, of course.

[Angela]

Hopefully he'll calm down. Hopefully it'll relax. We'll see. But I don't disagree with you. Lots of red flags there.

[Paul]

All right, back to Marissa and Adam at their wedding dinner. She is happy that they're not doing a father, daughter, mother, son dance. Of course. Because they're both kind of estranged from their family in different ways. Leah gives a speech during which Adam has this, like, thousand yard stare that just creeped me out. He was, like, checked out.

[Angela]

Yes.

[Paul]

Seemed like he didn't want to. He didn't care about what her friends were saying. What anybody.

[Angela]

Well, I think they were saying things that to him was like. When they're like. Yeah. And when she comes Home drunk, essentially. Something like that. And he's just like, oh, my God, man. Alcohol's causing inflammation.

[Paul]

And then piano playing. I think he's just, like, biding his time to get up there.

[Angela]

Oh, chef's kiss for this whole next scene.

[Paul]

Oh, man. When he goes. When he finishes that first song, and you're like, you did the thing.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

Move on.

[Paul]

And then he's like, just one more. And you can see everybody fall. Oh, my God. People are cutting.

[Angela]

People yawning, falling asleep.

[Paul]

Whenever one friend is just laughing uncontrollably.

[Angela]

That's the friend I want to hang out with. That's what I thought the whole time. I was like, that's the person I want to be with right there.

[Paul]

Oh, my God.

[Angela]

That's the friend I want to hang out with.

[Paul]

Poor Marissa just turns like she's trying to make it okay. And she's like, that's memorization. That's talented. It's like, what about the piano playing? It's like, because the piano playing is like a robotic thing. He's not bringing soul. He's not performing with soul.

[Angela]

At one point, she says the greatest thing, though. She says, he. Oh, my God, he knows so many notes.

[Paul]

Yeah, that's like, when you come down, like. Like the worst I remember hearing once, like, the worst thing you can hear as an actor after a play is like, how do you memorize all those lines? Because it's like, the easiest part of the job. Like, that's like the. But that's when no one. When they can't give you a compliment, but all they have to say something great.

[Tony Ayo]

Exactly.

[Paul]

God, you. You really look good up there with. And you said all those lines.

[Angela]

Yeah, he knows so.

[Paul]

He knows so many notes. He memorized it. That's talent. No, talent is moving you emotionally with the piano.

[Angela]

I would have been the guy there giggling and laughing as this man, but also his choice on a piano recital.

[Paul]

But yeah, it's like. It's like third grade piano recital. I have to say, like, dude, play a moving song place.

[Angela]

You play Billy Joel and get everybody dancing.

[Paul]

Exactly. You play fair, Elise. You're like, I am a robot who has learned to do the thing. That is impressive. It's a dude that's a piano man

[Angela]

and have everybody up there singing along

[Paul]

with a player piano robot. It's like, oh, I have to be artistic to attract women.

[Angela]

No, he's artistic. When he rips the jet ski rider. He rips the jet ski. That's where he's artistic.

[Paul]

Stay off the piano. No one cares. No one cares.

[Angela]

Oh, God. Just cutting everybody yawning and everything. It was so bad. His laughing my ass off as I

[Paul]

was watching that it was a person who should play piano because he wants to challenge himself mentally and somewhat physically.

[Danielle Fishel]

Cool.

[Paul]

You are not a piano player. As a performer, you are not. And I mean, I say this. I have always been a performer, obviously, and I. I can't play. I taught myself piano only recently, and I'm not very good. But I just don't think the technical skill is the thing. Like, the technical skill is almost the easy part.

[Angela]

Again, I told you. One of my favorite quotes ever from MASH is. Is going back to mash because, you know, I'm going to. Is Winchester. You know, the. The storyline is a guy. He so excited because he saves a guy's legs, and he couldn't save part of his hand. And it turns out the guy was a concert pianist. And so it didn't. He didn't care about his legs. And Winchester says to him, I can play the notes. I can't make the music. And that's this guy. He can play the notes.

[Paul]

He can play the notes.

[Angela]

Yeah, but he can't make the music. Nope. Yeah, he can. On a jet Ski.

[Paul]

All right, now we meet Sean. The doctor wants someone smart. Nikki says she's prioritized her career. Sean also prioritized his career. He's always been a winner since grade school. He's worked at being the best. His last name is Best. Get it? Sean Best. No, he wants kids. Right away to both of these. Both of these guys are on the older side, which I.

[Angela]

And I love that. I love that there was a couple that was like, you know, she's 46, he's 47. Before we get too much deeper into that, I have a question for you.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Angela]

How do you feel about somebody with a doctorate referring to themselves?

[Paul]

His doctor so pissed off about it.

[Angela]

Thank you very much, dude. Thank you very much.

[Paul]

I. Well, I thought he was a doctor.

[Angela]

Me, too. You want to know why?

[Paul]

Because he said doctor. I'm a doctor.

[Angela]

Yeah, dude, he has a doctorate.

[Paul]

No, you say you have a doctorate or you have a PhD. You don't say you're.

[Angela]

Which is hugely impressive. But you don't say, I'm Dr. Best.

[Paul]

No.

[Angela]

Yeah. Nope. No, thank you.

[Paul]

I found it. Yeah.

[Angela]

It's misleading.

[Paul]

It's totally misleading. Thank you. And also just like, yeah, like, having a PhD is awesome. Having a doctorate is awesome. Very difficult. It's very different. It's very different than saying, you're a doctor. I don't think you should be introduced as doctor.

[Angela]

Yeah. Somebody on a plane says, is there a doctor on board? Sean shouldn't raise his hand.

[Paul]

Nope.

[Angela]

Yep.

[Commercial Voice]

Agreed.

[Paul]

All right. He said he was raised religious, but then discovered sex at 29. He likes tall women. She says 6ft, but then says she's okay with a man who's towering in other ways is important because Sean is five foot six, which. Yeah, right.

[Angela]

When did height become such a big thing?

[Paul]

It's always been a thing, dude.

[Angela]

Not to this extent.

[Paul]

It always is.

[Angela]

You think?

[Paul]

Yes.

[Angela]

There's. I. It's only been the last five years I've heard that women are like, I need someone six feet or over.

[Paul]

Every study has backed this up since the dawn of time.

[Angela]

Really?

[Paul]

Yes. If you were like your inch. Every inch adds to your salary. The statistically, every inch adds to your salary. Your success with your partner for men.

[Angela]

Not if you're a jockey.

[Paul]

Being a height is. Is such a benefit in the breeding pool.

[Angela]

I guess I just never heard. I never heard it being this important to women except for over, like the last five years where women are like, no, my prerequisite is that I can't donate sperm. Really?

[Paul]

Yep. You have to be 5:9 to even donate sperm.

[Angela]

Oh, I'm going to go.

[Paul]

I am 5.

[Angela]

Go donate some sperm.

[Martha Stewart]

Really?

[Angela]

Yep.

[Paul]

That's. They won't even accept it because it's so low on the priority, like, places. Even with your brains, they won't take it.

[Martha Stewart]

Wow.

[Paul]

Because no women will check that box.

[Kyle MacLachlan]

They.

[Paul]

When women are flipping through the thing, how they have kids, they want somebody tall. Height is so important. And I think that's a big stumbling block here.

[Angela]

Oh, I agree 100%.

[Paul]

Well, she calls herself a sapiosexual, which. I love this term. Do you know this term?

[Angela]

Does it just means you fall in love with the person?

[Paul]

No, it means that you find intelligence sexy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh.

[Angela]

I thought it was just kind of whoever was.

[Paul]

No, it's like. It's. It's that you find somebody's. The more. The smarter somebody is, the more sexually attracted you are.

[Angela]

I know.

[Paul]

I had heard this term only a couple years ago for the first time. I was like, I like that C.P.

[Angela]

i like that. I want to find out the other one, because one of the things that so attracts me to a person is talent. So I want to try and find what that is. I'm sure somebody super talented. I always find that very attractive.

[Paul]

Yeah. Yeah, me too. Like. You mean like Adam's piano?

[Angela]

Yes. I see Adam and I just want him.

[Paul]

Got your juices flowing.

[Angela]

Oh, God. I want him to just rip me on a jet Ski.

[Paul]

All right, man. They have this interesting earning conversation where she has a floor of $200,000. I love that Paul points out, like, you realize the average salary in America.

[Angela]

And I love how she's like, I've heard all the numbers because they always do those numbers when they break down when. When people are now saying, like, I need somebody 6ft tall who makes at least $150,000 a year, but it's like.00% of the.01% of the population. Something so unattainable that it's like you're going to need to lower those standards probably. But she went to 200 from 250. Now is one of the reasons, though, I think, is that she says she makes a lot of money.

[Paul]

Yeah. So there's a difference. Earned enough to like, demand this, in a way, is what she's saying. She's like, I have expect. I've come to a place in my life, or I've made a lot. I do not want to just be the provider for something else.

[Angela]

And I can.

[Paul]

I also see.

[Angela]

I think that's 100 fair. There's something to, I'll say woman and man this way, but it's both ways. But really with a woman, there's something to a woman who's not making any money saying, I need a man to make $250,000 or I don't want to have anything to do with them. It's completely different than a woman who's like, no, I'm. I've made a lot of money, and I know how insecure men can be when I'm making a ton of money and they're not. And I know that that can be.

[Paul]

Which is what she says.

[Angela]

Right. And that to me, I respect that way more than just, my man needs to make $250,000.

[Paul]

But I also will. I will throw this in. I am. Domestic labor is so much work. Like, being the person who takes care of the house, does the planning. If you're raising kids, raises the kids. So I think a partner saying, I need a. I need my partner to make X amount of dollars, and I will do the domestic labor.

[Angela]

Well, that's the other part is you're getting a lot of people that aren't. Aren't doing the latter half of that.

[Paul]

Totally. Totally. Especially men, honestly, like, that's what. That's what's happened in the world right now is that women now are Expected to make also a lot of money. But statistically they're still doing all the domestic labor in the household even when the men are earning less than them, which is bonkers. But it is a statistical fact that women are still falling into the role of needing to do domestic labor while also oftentimes expected to earn 50% of the household income. So it's. We're in a. Where. Where are these statistics from? Look it up, man. It's crazy.

[Angela]

Like, because it seems like the, a lot of, A lot of the modern women, they. The. From the ones. The things that I've been seeing is there they want to share the domestic partnership, but they also still want the man to go out and earn all the money. And so it's like, okay, that.

[Paul]

That's not what's expressed. Sure. And I don't know, but I'm saying in households where both couples are working. Sure are. The women are still doing the majority of the domestic house labor.

[Angela]

Like they're.

[Paul]

That, that, that's. That statistics is pretty consistent that like women, even if they're earning and when they're not earning, they're doing a lot of the. More of the domestic. In both cases, women end up doing more. The domestic labor. Like that is just across the board, almost across culture. Like, women bear the brunt of the household labor. And so I think for a woman to acknowledge that and say, I will do this, I will do all this and that is worth a lot and earn more money than me and bring that home, like that's an equal.

[Angela]

You know, if there's an equality to it, 100%.

[Paul]

Well, the thing is it's kind of however you work it out. But I think what ends up happening a lot of times is people say we're going to be equal and then it's just really not, you know, one person doesn't do that much either or earning wise. So I think just clarity right upfront and clarity and lack of self delusion is the goal. And I don't think it always is. You know, I think we're all delusional about our marriage.

[Angela]

I think so too, in some ways.

[Paul]

You know, like, it seems like I

[Angela]

can't tell if she's honestly opening open to lowering her expectations or if she wants to appear like she's open to lowering her expectations about the money, about everything. When it comes to Sean.

[Paul]

Well, I think, I think she's. She's very clear about the money. I wish she had been a little clearer personally so far about the height thing.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Because. Or the attraction because, because she's clearly

[Angela]

not attracted to this man.

[Paul]

I don't. Yeah.

[Angela]

At all. Not attracted to this.

[Paul]

She does not consider him like on her radar. No. And that is too bad because.

[Angela]

Yeah, I agree.

[Paul]

Because she says she's a sapiosexual. She says the quote right now that I'm about to recap, I'm going to receive him as God made him. She says all that stuff, but she, I don't think she. Yeah, I agree. And that's it's, it's too bad because she presented herself one way in the interviews and, and maybe we'll. Maybe that'll change.

[Angela]

You know, this is where you, this is where. I guarantee you this was the relationship that made me think that you're. She's going to keep hearing Trust the process. We put you together for Trust the process.

[Kyle MacLachlan]

Foreign. This is Kyle McLaughlin from what Are We Even Doing with Kyle McLaughlin. Stream all eight seasons of Desperate Housewives on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. You know what we need to talk about the original Housewives. Long before reality TV turned housewives into a cultural phenomenon, the women of Wisteria Lane were serving up scandal, mystery, romance, rivalries and chaos. Hiding behind the picture perfect suburban life. There's never been a better time to binge the series that started it all. Stream every episode of Desperate Housewives on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundled subscribers. Terms apply.

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[Cal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn, the host of Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audio Audiobook Club. This week I'm sitting down with author Matt Dinnaman and narrator Jeff Ayes to talk about dungeon crawler Carl. Matt had one line in A notebook from middle school alien game show. It took him until 2019 to finally write it, but what came out was an out of this world audiobook phenomenon. We talked about that origin talking cat with a charisma stat that breaks the game. And what is it takes to voice an entire world?

[Jeff Hayes]

Fiction is bull. So you gotta trick me into caring about what you're talking about. And that's always what I have thought of as my job. So as a narrator, I always want to keep you engaged by making you feel as if I care as a narrator. And when I do dialogue, I don't want to tell you what the characters are saying. I want you to hear firsthand.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tony Ayo]

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[Paul]

So we see her backstage before her wedding. He gives her a journal. The very sweet letter. This is her reaction. Is the reaction that Adam didn't give to his journal.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Which is. Oh, my God, she just loves it.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

He gives her a pendant with the date of what? Oh, my God.

[Angela]

Great.

[Paul]

He is just on the right track. He's thoughtful. She cries. She's so into it.

[Angela]

And if he was just 6ft tall, made a half a million dollars a year, they'd be fine.

[Paul]

Well, he does make a half a million dollars a year. I think it's Just.

[Angela]

No, I think she. He makes a lot less than she does. Wasn't that was the problem? Yeah, I think he makes. I think he makes a lot less money than she does. Oh, he runs a school. So. No, I think.

[Paul]

Oh, no, he runs a school. I thought he's making like good money.

[Angela]

I think he. I think he's. In the long. In the scheme of things, I think he's making good money. I don't think he's making $200,000 a year or 250 a year.

[Paul]

Hold on. I thought the money thing was like, he actually did take that box.

[Angela]

Oh, no, I don't think he ticks that box of memory serves. I don't.

[Paul]

When do they have that reveal?

[Angela]

I thought they. 99% Maddie, am I wrong? I thought they literally talk about how he's like, I work hard and I'm doing better, but I'm. I don't think he's making that amount of money.

[Paul]

I don't remember them saying his salary specifically, but I just looked it up. He works as a college VP of administration, so he's definitely making six figures. It says, but it's not giving me an example.

[Angela]

What?

[Paul]

I assumed he was a doctor, like literally a medicine.

[Angela]

Oh, yeah, so did she. Which is why her face lightened up.

[Paul]

I know, but they don't reveal that he is not a medical doctor until after they're already married. So all this pre talk, I was like, oh, good, he checks the box of earning 200. Because I figured if you're a medical doctor, you make 2, 250 a year easily. So that was my assumption. You're right. Oh my God. He's got a doctorate, administration. He could be making 200,000, but maybe.

[Angela]

But he's not.

[Paul]

Oh, so then the matchmakers really screwed the pooch on this one.

[Jeff Hayes]

Man.

[Paul]

I'm sorry. We get Michelle and Cameron at their dinner.

[Angela]

Oh, the most awkward dance.

[Paul]

Yeah, I know. We haven't got to the dance yet. This is just. He gets up and his friend. He gets up and leaves her alone with the friends. And they brag about him, about basketball, that he's a coach. And I immediately was like, she kind of has more chemistry with his friends. Yeah, like they were just so. Which maybe they were just more relaxed, you know, I get it. There's a lot of pressure.

[Danielle Fishel]

I don't know.

[Angela]

Well, no, I also think one of his friends. And again, I apologize to this person if I am assuming, but it seemed like one of his friends was gay. And she talks about her. One of her Favorite things to do was go with her gay friends to a gay bar. So she, she seems to be one of those women who's just more comfortable around gay men.

[Paul]

Bel Jolie and Mecca are at dinner. His dad gives a speech. Logic making it all about him. Talks about how Mecca, I mean, kind of throws his son under the bus. It's like, it's funny a little bit. And then I think it goes a little too far.

[Angela]

I agree.

[Paul]

And to her credit, she starts saying, like, why are we doing my husband like this? And I was like, good. You know what?

[Angela]

She's already standing up for love a little bit.

[Podcast Announcer]

A little bit.

[Paul]

Like just enough. Like it's not like a really, like a dramatic moment, but she says it, she repeats it multiple times. And it's like, yeah, like you get like, his dad's a little much, you know? And I think his personality eclipses his son, which has probably been the story of Mecca's life, which is probably why he's a little insecure about being accepted for who he is.

[Angela]

I agree.

[Paul]

Beljoie's mom gives a speech about how strong she is, that she's a survivor. And then I love this moment. She addresses Mecca directly and says, seeing you be a goofball but intelligent and solid is amazing. And I was like, that's cool. Because she wasn't just giving a present speech. She was reading him and responding to who he's presented himself as in real time. I was like, good, good for you, mom. And I hope that. Hope that Bel Jolie is feeling the same way because I like both of them.

[Angela]

I do too. And I think they're attracted to each other.

[Paul]

I hope so.

[Angela]

I hope they seem to be. They seem to be attracted to each other.

[Paul]

I don't know if they're. How much they're attracted to each other and how much they just like look good together. Do you know what I mean? Like, they look like a TV couple. They look like a good, like, version. I mean, they're both, I don't know,

[Angela]

they're both good looking people, so I imagine they see each other in the

[Paul]

mouth, but they're also kind of of a type. They both kind of have this like artsy, interesting vibe. They're both thin and I don't know, there was something about the two of them. You're like, they would go well together.

[Angela]

Like they're cast together.

[Paul]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. And we get Felipe and Torre dancing, the mother son dance, the mother and son speaking Portuguese, which is just a lovely conversation. His whole biggest fear was that his family was not going to get along with his wife, but he says those fears have been blown away. Get to see everybody dancing. Then we get Courtney and Nick at dinner. Friends ask about RuPaul's Drag Race, which her friends think is about cars.

[Angela]

She's like, I love cars.

[Paul]

I love cars.

[Angela]

My family loves cars.

[Paul]

And this is where she starts to get curious about why he wants to do this again.

[Angela]

Yeah.

[Paul]

Why is he on another reality show?

[Martha Stewart]

Fair.

[Paul]

Yes, good question.

[Martha Stewart]

Fair.

[Paul]

And we see Sean and Nikki getting ready. Sean talks about having a dream, how he had a dream about getting married, and he's going through with it. He comes out, he's very personality driven. Let's make some noise. He immediately introduces himself to the family, the mother in law, which is to your point about the.

[Angela]

Finally, it's like one or two people have done that the entire show, and

[Paul]

then she comes down the aisle, and they don't really say anything.

[Angela]

Brutal.

[Paul]

So what was going on in this moment for you? Because my interpretation is that she doesn't realize that he's the groom.

[Angela]

It kind of came off like that, didn't it?

[Paul]

She says, I'm just gonna stand here and wait for my groom. I'm ready.

[Angela]

Do you think she was kidding? I didn't know.

[Paul]

I think she literally did not recognize that he was the groom because I think his jacket was a color. Like, it's like a different color.

[Angela]

It's like a brown.

[Paul]

Yeah, yeah, it's like a brown. So I think she assumed that he was one of the groomsmen waiting up there or maybe even part of the officiant. I think she literally did not see him because he was not enough of a presence in her life.

[Angela]

Oh, I thought that was a joke, but I think you're probably right. And I think she covered.

[Paul]

I think she covered it. And, you know, we'll get into it because we get into the next episode, but the way this episode ended, my heart was pounding because I thought it was so awkward. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we'll leave it there. We'll leave it there until our next episode. Because it was incredibly awkward. I was super uncomfortable.

[Angela]

Yeah, I was, too.

[Paul]

But I think my discomfort indicates that I'm invested in this show.

[Martha Stewart]

You are. It's great.

[Paul]

Kind of into it.

[Angela]

Speaking of invested.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Angela]

We have our wonderful segment.

[Paul]

What an arrangement.

[Angela]

Hey, Angela. Today we're, of course, talking about the most famous arranged couples. Arranged marriages from history. And today we have Mary Tudor's marriage to Louis the 12th. And as part of the peace treaty, Henry VIII used His sister, Mary Tudor as a bargaining chip with France. King Lou.

[Paul]

Yeah, of course, these people just passing off their.

[Angela]

Oh, it gets bad too. But she was smart with this until it almost killed her. King Louis XII pushed for the marriage to the then 18 year old, who was obviously very resistant to the whole arrangement. Henry was able to convince Mary to wed Louis under a certain condition. Mary had this put in. If her partner died and she became a widow, she would be able to find her next husband and Mary for love. Mary and Louis marriage lasted for three months. When the king died.

[Paul]

Oh my God.

[Angela]

Mary then turned around and chose Henry's best friend, Charles. Charles Brandon was his name, against Henry's wishes, married him in secret. When Henry found out, he threw his best friend in prison and almost exiled his wife.

[Paul]

Oh my.

[Angela]

Luckily, after much bargaining back and forth, he allowed the two of them to remain married. But it was a big deal. This is Henry viii. Because the deal was Mary Tudor said, I will go and marry him, but I get to marry for love. It only lasted three months. She did it without asking. He was disease. It was, they were, you know, was like the 1300s.

[Paul]

He got a cough.

[Angela]

Exactly. He stepped, he got a splinter and, and man, he was dead. So, yeah. So she ended up throwing worth taking.

[Paul]

Like people died so quickly, so easily, but it was like, hey, if he

[Angela]

dies, she was like, fine, fine, I get to go. But then he instantly wanted. She was. I mean, this is Henry VII's, you know, beautiful sister. So talk about a bargaining chip. So he was instantly going to go marry her off, I think to somebody from Germany or something to, you know, was going to marry off again. And she's like, no. And married his best friend in private.

[Paul]

Henry vii. What an ass. Oh yeah.

[Angela]

Total scumbag. You know that when he died, his body was so disgusting and bloated. First of all, he was so ulcerated and disgusting, they could smell him from three rooms away. And when he did finally die, he was. His body was so gross that like a week after he died, his body exploded in the crypt. Yeah. Literally disgusting, man.

[Paul]

Rotten to the core.

[Angela]

Yep.

[Paul]

You've been listening to Pod meets Twirl. The vows have been spoken, the experts have weighed in and our completely offhand conversation has now become a season long commitment. We'll see you next time. Trap your smokin.

[Angela]

So many penguins.

[Paul]

So many penguins.

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