Pod Meets Twirl'd: Turret Talk with Ben Mandelker (Watch What Crappens)

Summary

Pod Meets World — Pod Meets Twirl’d: Turret Talk with Ben Mandelker (Watch What Crappens)

Date: February 14, 2026
Hosts: Will Friedel & Ryder Strong
Guest: Ben Mandelker (Watch What Crappens podcast)

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Episode Overview

This energetic episode brings reality TV expertise to Pod Meets Twirl’d, as Will and Ryder — self-described reality skeptics turned curious explorers — welcome Ben Mandelker, co-host of Watch What Crappens and bona fide Bravo aficionado. The trio embarks on an insightful, often hilarious journey through the universe of Bravo’s Real Housewives, the evolution of reality TV, and this season of The Traitors — with a focus on Housewives contestants and the culture clashes that make these genres so endlessly watchable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ben Mandelker’s Reality TV Journey

• Background: Ben shares his history as an early TV blogger (TVgasm), writer, and eventually a podcaster with roots in the dawn of the medium ([04:08]).

  • "We started this blog about TV... called TVgasm. And we’d write these recaps. It was, like, a very exciting time." – Ben Mandelker ([04:34])
  • Describes the accidental evolution from blogs to successful podcast, noting the change in digital culture: "We were like, let’s start a podcast to promote our blog ... That was 14 years ago. And now the blogs are long gone." ([06:42])
  • Reflection on early podcasting: "Back then ... Apple was very much about, like, hey, you’ve got GarageBand on your computer. … There were all these crappy podcasts out there." ([06:59])

• Podcasting in the Early Days: Will and Ryder react with surprise to Ben’s podcasting longevity, noting the shift in pop culture’s view of the format ([06:43]).

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2. The Bravo Universe Explained

• Housewives as a Phenomenon: Ben traces the Real Housewives franchise from its roots ("20 years ago... coming up on its 20th anniversary") ([07:59]) as “docu-drama” to “soapy” sensation ([08:09]).

  • Early seasons gave an “actual time capsule” look at mid-2000s suburban opulence, evolving into social lore ([09:03]).

• Iconic Moments and Scandals:

  • The Table Flip: The infamous Teresa Giudice incident on RHONJ becomes shorthand for franchise lore ([10:17]).
  • The “cop without a badge” scandal — the real-life criminal past of Danielle Staub — provides context on how Housewives built a mythology ([12:44]).
  • White House Party Crashing: The Salahis’ political scandal leading to the D.C. spin-off ([13:41]).

• Who Becomes a Housewife?:

  • "It’s a very loose term... Bravo wants opulence... they want to know they’re making a certain amount of money or have a mansion..." ([15:19])
  • Not necessarily ‘housewives’ by marital status; “A lot of them aren’t even married.” – Ryder ([15:17])

• Housewives Lore & BravoCon:

  • The fandom is compared to fan subcultures, like pro-wrestling or even Dungeons & Dragons painting ([28:32], [30:06]).
  • Ben discusses attending BravoCon as a minor celebrity in the “Bravo ecosystem” ([32:18], [33:06]).

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3. Reality TV as a Genre: Talent vs. Acting

• Is There a Talent?

  • Ben: "I think the talent is in... reality TV improv... to understand when to share, when not to share, when to interrupt." ([19:43])
  • Will likens participants to a “new kind of actor," improvising real situations ([21:04]).

• Conflict & Comedy

  • Sharing: "The conflict is really the most fun part. That's honestly the best." – Ben ([21:23])
  • Ben argues that well-produced Housewives seasons contain “better comedy” than most modern sitcoms ([25:03]).
    "The way you really have to watch these shows is...these are actually our comedies now." ([25:14])

• Aspirational or Schadenfreude?

  • Will asks if viewers aspire to this lifestyle or hate watch ([26:07]), Ben’s answer: both. "It's all of the above." ([26:39])
  • Middle-class additions to the cast are often rejected by the audience, showing the genre’s love of opulence ([27:14]).

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4. Housewives Meets The Traitors

• Traitors Format and Bravo Contestants

  • Ben explains how Housewives personalities, especially Candace and Lisa Rinna/Rinna, presented themselves differently in The Traitors: “Housewives act differently on The Traitors…they know being extra is a liability.” ([44:34])
  • On Lisa Rinna: "She got a good head start on being able to craft her defense and...then she does nothing." ([46:48])
  • Ryder and Will critique Rinna’s inability to adapt improv skills into strategy; Ben suggests specific plays Lisa could have made. ([47:12])

• Discussion of Contestants’ Personalities

  • Dorinda: “She can see red really quickly...she’s very warm and...maternal...but you cannot mess with her.” ([59:41])
  • Portia: “Such a great, hilarious, over the top personality, and it was so sad to lose her first.” ([61:14])
  • Ron vs Colton: How Ron’s logical gameplay clashed with the more aggressive but less substantiated style of Colton ([62:28]).

• Strategy Talk

  • The “roundtable” is cherished as the most compelling aspect, over the physical missions which "bring the show to a halt." ([72:08])
  • Ben calls for changes: "Everything in the show should contribute to [the roundtable]. There should be some way to undermine the shields more." ([70:44])

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5. Reality TV’s Place in Pop Culture

• Snobbery and Legitimization

  • Ben: “There’s a huge amount of snobbery...you’d be shocked at the number of people that say, ‘oh, I don’t know how you could watch that stuff.’” ([74:32])
  • Ryder confesses some of his own artistic bias but acknowledges audience entertainment as the true goal ([76:24]).

• Evolution and Diversity within Reality TV

  • Reality TV is fun, complicated, and comes with its own inside jokes and community. Ben compares its multifaceted nature to classic sitcoms ([80:15]) and notes how newer sitcoms have lost touch with what made earlier ones so lasting.

• What Makes Good Reality TV?

  • Not all reality is equal — the craft lies in “great storytelling,” whether it’s on Survivor or Housewives ([78:07], [78:55]).
  • The best seasons transcend genre lines, delivering both laughs and human insight.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On “Housewife” as a Title
  "It means a woman who's dramatic and drinks." – Ryder Strong ([15:22])
• On Early Real Housewives
  "It really is a time capsule of...2004, like Iraq war...just the way people looked and dressed and acted." – Ben ([09:08])
• On Reality Talent
  “There is a talent in kind of appealing to the camera, in letting someone in in a certain way...getting into the mix.” – Ben ([19:43])
• Comparing Reality to Wrestling
  "This sounds exactly like being a baby face or a heel in professional wrestling." – Ryder Strong ([28:43])
• On Housewives Strategy in Traitors
  "They know that being extra is a liability...a lot have been way more restrained." – Ben ([45:04])
• On Strategic Misses
  "Lisa, why aren't you doing anything? Why aren't you starting to plant seeds about Colton?...Why didn't you do that?" – Ben ([46:48], [47:34])
• On Fandom
  "To be in a community that...knows the lore and can speak the same language is really comforting." – Ben ([31:44])
• On Comedy in Housewives
  "The Real Housewives, they're like, hilarious...these are actually our comedies now." – Ben ([25:14])
• Explaining the Appeal
  “All of the above.” — Ben, on whether viewers aspire to, resent, or laugh at Housewives ([26:39])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------------------|-----------------| | Ben Mandelker’s “Bravo origin story” | 04:08-06:42 | | Housewives history, lore, and early docu-drama style | 07:59-09:47 | | Iconic housewives moments (table flip, DC party crashing) | 10:17-15:03 | | Who becomes a housewife? | 15:03-17:01 | | Is there talent in Housewives/reality – and what is it? | 19:38-24:56 | | Reality vs acting/improv comparison | 21:04-25:14 | | Aspirational vs critical tone in Housewives viewership | 26:07-28:32 | | Conventions, BravoCon, fandom subculture | 30:06-33:39 | | Housewives vs game players on Traitors | 43:02-50:45 | | Contestants breakdown: Dorinda, Portia, Ron, Colton, etc. | 58:11-63:10 | | Strategy in The Traitors – what needs to change | 70:44-73:56 | | Cultural “snobbery” toward reality TV | 74:32-77:12 | | Reality TV vs sitcom legacy | 78:55-82:32 | | Ben’s all-time favorite reality shows (and where to start) | 69:39; 86:00 |

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Essential Recommendations & Takeaways

• For reality TV newcomers, Ben recommends starting with Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, specifically Season 1 (or Season 2 if pressed). "So much has happened on Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Someone got arrested for massive fraud scheme. There’s a woman on there who’s married to her grandfather." ([86:00])
• If you want thoughtful, less-snobby coverage of reality TV, check out Naomi Fry’s writing in The New Yorker ([88:16]).
• The hosts and Ben agree that what truly makes reality TV work isn’t staged drama but great storytelling and character-driven moments — not unlike the best sitcoms ([78:07], [81:01]).

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Tone & Flow

The conversation is candid, irreverent, and full of contagious enthusiasm. Ben brings historical context and deep fandom, while Will and Ryder blend outsider curiosity with skepticism and wit. The episode provides both illuminating insights for reality TV veterans and an accessible entry point for the uninitiated, spotlighting why the genre — love it or hate it — remains such a fixture in popular culture.

Transcript

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[Will Friedel]

Welcome to POD meets Twirl, the podcast from two guys who had never seen an episode of Dancing with the Stars but took it on and walked away. Experts so now we've turned to traitors. Another show that I've never seen. While Will is convinced that he could win it, we are Will Friedel and Ryder Strong, two best friends. One's a TV expert, one's a TV skeptic. Both dance scholars. Yep, this is POD meets Twirled Trading Places. And today, we have a guest. Though we have be quickly become undeniable thought leaders and experts on this season of Traders and the game itself, we are still somewhat in the dark when it comes to the Bravo universe. Whether you're a real housewife, a Shaw of Sunset, a Vanderpump ruler, I don't know what any of this means. Or currently living below deck, I'm assuming Silver.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay, I know that. I know below deck is the one that takes place in a boat.

[Will Friedel]

You are primed to become a traitor, it seems. So we decided to call in an expert, someone who knows everything about this very specific sect of reality tv, to help us decipher what we should know about these specific contestants, whether they're still in the game or have already been murdered or banished. So welcome to POD meets Twirl, the co host of the Watch what Crappens podcast, Ben Mandelker.

[Ben Mandelker]

Hi, there.

[Ryder Strong]

Hello, Ben.

[Ben Mandelker]

How's it going?

[Will Friedel]

Good. How are you doing? Thank you so much for joining us.

[Ben Mandelker]

Oh, my goodness. Thank you for inviting me on. I'm so excited to have, like, another excuse to talk about the Traders and.

[Ryder Strong]

Everything else on Bravo because we. We're lost.

[Will Friedel]

We're lost. That's. We're hoping that you're ready to explain a lot, because we need.

[Ben Mandelker]

Oh, my goodness. I can. That's what I'm here for. Okay.

[Will Friedel]

All right, well, let's. Before we get into all of Our million and A1 questions about the people that appeared on Traders and what housewives mean and what all this stuff, let's. Let's start with your origin story. So how did you become this Bravo expert?

[Ben Mandelker]

It's. It's a crazy thing. I moved to Los Angeles back in 2001 to be a writer, and I wanted to write for TV and do all that stuff.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

And I wound up on this, like, assistant track. And when I was. When I was being an assistant, my roommate at the time, he wants to start up a blog. It was like 2004.

[Will Friedel]

When they were still blogs.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. I was like, what's that? What's a blog?

[Ryder Strong]

Read about it on MySpace.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. It literally was like that. And so we started this blog about tv, and it was called TV Gasm. And we'd write these recon apps. It was, like, a very exciting time. And, like, the blogosphere was, like, blowing up and everything.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

And so I. I started to, like, make a name for myself in the digital space. And then, long story short, the blog actually blew up. We wound up selling the blog, and we wound up bringing on writers, which is cr. It's crazy.

[Will Friedel]

You're, like, one of the few blog success stories you actually made money on.

[Ben Mandelker]

No, it's. It's legitimately crazy.

[Will Friedel]

That's awesome.

[Ben Mandelker]

So we sold it to Bina Murray, who does the Real World and everything, which was also bizarre. And so then one of the mandates, once we sold it was that we had to bring on more writers. And so we had kind of like an open call of, like, who wants to write for this? For tvgasm? And so Ronnie Karam, who wound up being my co host, ultimately of Watch Crappens, he wound up signing up to be a writer, and that's how I got to know him. And then I left the blog, and then I was doing my own thing. I was doing the Hollywood thing. Had, like, a screenplay that was going to be like, the screenplay, and then it was not the screenplay. And then I was for, like, this thing for mgm. I was like, oh, my God, this is going to be amazing. And then it was canceled, and it was like, you know, the peaks and troughs of Hollywood. And during that time, I was hired to host a web show about the Real Housewives because I started to blog again on the side. And because I had this. I already had kind of like a name for myself digitally. I had you this web show about the housewives, and I needed to bring on co hosts, so I brought on Ronnie and other people, and we had a lot of fun talking about the housewives. And then that platform just went. It. It, like, it shuttered. But we're like, this is really fun. We should just keep on doing this. So we just started podcasting, and at that time, Ronnie was blogging too. And we're like, let's start a podcast to promote our blog. We were like, this is. This is the most important thing, like, the blog. We really need to, like, draw more attention to the blog. So let's do, like, a podcast on the side. And then Pod, we just did it. And that was 14 years ago. And now the. You know, the blogs are long gone, right?

[Will Friedel]

The podcast became.

[Ryder Strong]

So you were podcasting 14 years ago. This was, like, the first time.

[Will Friedel]

Ryder.

[Ryder Strong]

Ryder, you're the first person I know who ever said the word podcast. So, yeah, there was like, it's not like today where everything's. Everybody has a podcast. I mean, you must have been a very rarefied heir to have a podcast back in the day.

[Ben Mandelker]

Well, you know, anyone could have a podcast back. I mean, everyone can still have a podcast, right? But, like, back then, it was just like, you know, Apple was very much about, like, hey, you've got. You've got GarageBand on your computer. You got voice memos. Do a podcast. So you just would. There were all these, like, really crappy podcasts out there. I don't know. Am I allowed to curse on your podcasts?

[Ryder Strong]

No.

[Ben Mandelker]

So let me just say it, guys. There are podcasts out there.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

No, but, like, we all sounded crazy with bad microphones, but the vibe back then was like, go make a podcast. It's fun. And it really wasn't until Serial came along that, like, the podcast industry started to become, like, a thing. And we just were lucky. We just were there ahead of time. So, I mean, it's hard these days.

[Will Friedel]

And you were always talking about Bravo programming. Was that, like, the sort of the mission?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, that was so original. When we. When we did the web show, it was called Housewives Hoedown, and it was just only Real Housewives.

[Ryder Strong]

But wait, that was 14 years or so. Housewives has been around for 14 years.

[Ben Mandelker]

Oh, it's. It's been around for 20 years, actually. It's coming up on its 20th anniversary, like, this year. Oh, that's.

[Ryder Strong]

And was it as popular 20 years ago as it is kind of in the zeitgeist today, or.

[Ben Mandelker]

No, no, it definitely was not. When it first came around, I was actually still at TV Gasm, and I was like, oh, my God, I can't wait to watch the Real Housewives. Because at that time, Desperate Housewives were a thing. The OC Was a thing. Laguna beach was airing. So there was, like, a lot of attention to Orange county and suburbia at the same time. I was like, oh, this will be perfect. And if you go back and watch those first one or two seasons of Real Housewives, it's like a whole different beast. It was very much docu drama. You know, we're just going to follow around wealthy women, and you just get to see what their life was like. And then it got sort of soapier and soapier as it. As it grew. Probably starting season three, the arrival of Tamara Judge, who was on season two of the Traitors.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

And. And then it. It just started moving that direction, and now it's a phenomenon that's, like, just so big now. But back then, it was a little slow. It was kind of boring back then.

[Will Friedel]

But it's funny because I'm more interested in the docu drama. That's just my taste.

[Ben Mandelker]

It's actually. It's actually great that we had those first few seasons because I went back And I watched the premiere of Real Housewives of Orange county, which is the original. I watched that about a year ago. And so it was, I think, released 2006, but maybe it's probably shot 2005, maybe even 2004, quite frankly, because, you know, the timelines on these. These things. And it really is a time capsule of, like, Bush era, like a second Bush era. 2004, like Iraq war, like that. All that vibe, everything happening, just the way people looked and dressed and acted. It's kind of cool that it was such a docudrama because you just do step back into 2005.

[Will Friedel]

Just a fly on the wall kind of vibe. Yeah. So was the.

[Ryder Strong]

It's so. It's so interesting because I know so little about this. My wife watches one of them or did, because I know that there's. There's 19 different versions and everybody's got kind of their favorite cast or. Oh, I watch this one. I watch New York, but I don't watch OC Or I watch Beverly Hills, but I don't watch Atlanta. Like, there's always something like that. But there was some table flipping incident that made something famous.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes. New Jersey. Real Housewives of New Jersey. There was. That was probably 2010 or so. There was a table flip. And, you know, part of the fun about being a Real Housewives person is that there's so much lore. I mean, think about it. If you've got 20 years of franchises that have piled up there. When you say the table flip, like, we all know. All the Real House house people know. Oh, yeah, that was season one New Jersey season finale. Teresa, she was getting mad at Danielle because Danielle had lied about being a stripper at one time in her life. It came out in a book, and it was like, there's. It's kind of like 20 years of inside jokes built up.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

Which is really, like, super cool if you think about it.

[Will Friedel]

Right?

[Ryder Strong]

Wait, did.

[Will Friedel]

Now.

[Ryder Strong]

I'm sorry. Now I'm in all the way. Did she lie about actually being a stripper or not being a stripper?

[Ben Mandelker]

Oh, my goodness, there's. I'm so excited to tell you about this.

[Will Friedel]

Was she a stripper?

[Ben Mandelker]

This is just so. And what's great is this is like entry level. This is like this, like your gateway. Gateway scandal. But like at. At, like back in 2010, this was like, everyone was like, oh, can you believe it? So there's a woman named Danielle Stob who was on season one and two of Real House as a New Jersey, as a full time cast member, and she Was, like, crazy out the gate. You could always tell. And she was. You knew that there was some sort of darkness going on. And it turns out that her real name is Beverly. Oh, I'm. I forget what her last name is, but it's Beverly something. Another. And she was. She was a stripper. And I think she was, like, married to some. Some. It's some sort of criminal association that the Fed. She got arrested. It was Jersey.

[Will Friedel]

It's probably mafia, right?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. 100. I forget the details now because it's. The details don't really matter. You have to know that she. You don't need to be named Beverly, which. Honestly, enough. That's like. Enough. Like, it's like, oh, you used to be named Beverly. How dare. How dare you? But so she was named Beverly, and so this is written about. There was a book called, like. Like, oh, the book has got a. In Bravo lore. It's a famous book, and I've totally forgotten about. It's like a name. It's like no other name or something like that, but it's a. It's a book that detailed whatever this scandal was that she got arrested is about this mafia thing. But she was mentioned in it, and one of the Real housewives found the book and then was like, guys, guess what? Danielle used to be a stripper. And she was. And she used to be named Beverly. And it became like, a scandal.

[Ryder Strong]

Wait, it was like her husband or her boyfriend. Right. Got into some kind of.

[Ad Voice]

He.

[Ryder Strong]

It was something like a. A confidence scheme or something like that, and she was involved in it. Oh, my God. How do I know this?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

I'm, like, trying to, like, look it up, like, on the fly.

[Ryder Strong]

Cop without a badge. We're being told cop without a badge.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes, cop without a badge. Than you so much. That's what it was. And at this time, it was like, you know, we were pretty early on in housewives lore. There hadn't been too much scandal like this yet. So it was like, there's someone who had a whole other b. Like a whole other name. They used to be a stripper. And this was horrifying. And the women got really mad about it, and it resulted in Teresa Judice flipping a table and screaming at her. And the irony, of course, is that Theresa herself went to jail a few seasons later for being part of a fraud scheme.

[Ryder Strong]

So is she the one who tried to crash the White House party?

[Ben Mandelker]

No, that is. Thank you for bringing that up. There's, like, so many fun little details.

[Will Friedel]

Well, you know, all of these Things.

[Ryder Strong]

Without knowing that made the news. That the Real Housewife and her husband who tried to.

[Will Friedel]

It's like the Rumsfeld thing of, like, known unknowns. You have, like, known unknowns? I have no known, like, all my. I have unknown unknowns. Like, that's all I have about ages.

[Ryder Strong]

But, yeah, no, I know some of this.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, this did make national news. Her name was Mikhail Salahi.

[Ryder Strong]

Salahi. That was it.

[Ben Mandelker]

Okay, so basically, this is my theory. So the Real Housewives of dc, which had one season, and Mikhail. Mikhail and her husband Tarek, did make national news because they did crash the White House, like a party, like 2012 or so. And my theory is that real Housewives of D.C. was greenlit because I feel like they were probably shooting footage, like a sizzle reel. And. And then just so happens that one of the people they're following on this show gets into a national scandal for doing this, and they're like, oh, oh, shit. We. We got to greenlight this. Whatever footage we have. Let's cobble this together. So you have this very kind of uneven season that a lot of people didn't like. I personally loved it. I thought it was a great season. And Mikhail Slaughter crashing the White House was actually a great episode. And it's like one of those great, fun, like, trivia pieces. Like, yes, there was a Real Housewife who crashed the White House. Like, I love.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah, I remember.

[Will Friedel]

Okay.

[Ryder Strong]

I remember that.

[Ad Voice]

Oh, God.

[Will Friedel]

Okay, okay. I. I have, like, the basic question, like, how do you get to be a housewife? Do you have to be worth a certain amount of money? Like, does. Do you have to. Can you have a job, or do you have to be only a housewife? Oh, you can't have a job.

[Ryder Strong]

A lot of them aren't even married.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, it's a very loose term. It's a loose term.

[Ryder Strong]

It means a woman who's dramatic and drinks.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, that's kind of like. It's. It's. That's sort of generally the stereotype of it, I think. The Real Housewife, like, even the first season, you had Lori Waring, who was divorced, and so you had people who weren't even. Weren't even married anymore. Okay. But basically, Bravo wants opulence, for sure. Famously, what I've heard from every. Any producer who's worked with Bravo is that when they're casting any show. Well, most shows, because they sort of have their quote unquote poor shows, which usually follows, like, young people who are up and coming and waiters and bartenders. But for Anyone there?

[Ryder Strong]

That's the. That's the one where the dude just got into the huge scandal who was on Traders last year. He cheated with somebody. With somebody else, and then they were. Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

Scandal is the name of the scandal.

[Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Ben Mandelker]

Tom Sandoval. Yes. The Bravo just has. There's so many. Just different tiers of lore in all these different areas. But I think what's about that.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

So Bravo, they famously, they really vet their cast. If someone's coming onto the show, they want to know that they're making a certain amount of money or that they have a mansion or this or that. That's what I've heard from every producer. So I think to be on the show, you have to be interesting. You have to have money. I think those are, like, the two things you need. And ideally, you have to have some true connection to cast members. I think maybe back in the day that connection to cast members was a stronger element of. But, like, nowadays we do definitely get shows where someone's like, this is my friend we just met over the summer. Which meant that they were, like, probably sent to dinner together before. Right, right, right.

[Ryder Strong]

Of course, of course.

[Ben Mandelker]

You know.

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U.S. paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

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[Will Friedel]

This is something that we've been debating. Do these people have talent?

[Ryder Strong]

Is there a talent?

[Ben Mandelker]

I think they're actually is. Oh, I can't wait to hear this talent.

[Will Friedel]

Is it just charisma or talent?

[Ben Mandelker]

I think the talent is in. This is a hard one to sort of pinpoint. I think there's a talent in being able to kind of do weird reality TV improv, if that makes sense. Like to understand when to share, when not to share, when to interrupt. Now a lot of the producers do drive that. They say go ask her a question about this. But like there are, there are people who go on these shows that are flops and it's like they may have charisma, but they still don't. They don't like land. They don't, they don't, they don't work. Because there is, I think a talent in kind of appealing to the camera, in letting someone in a certain way or, or sort of like the really good housewives just sort of have this knack of getting into the mix. And so there is a talent. I just can't describe what it is.

[Will Friedel]

Is it like maximizing conflict? Like, because.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, no, I mean, but if you think about it, what it is is because our side of the industry is slowly dying. The acting, these are the new actors. Because again, no reality show isn't real. I mean none of these reality shows are actually real. So I guess it is kind of like a new style of acting.

[Will Friedel]

It's your own what you're Saying is improv is right. It's like, it's like you're going in, doing a version of yourself and you're kind of. Yes. Anding a situation. Right. And. And you just have to keep rolling with it. But it also seems to me like that situation only becomes fun to watch if there's conflict, if there's drama.

[Ben Mandelker]

Largely, yes. But you can find actually really compelling content. It's much harder, but there's like really compelling non. Non conflict content that can come through. There are some there. These shows do actually have some very compelling personal scenes with each other with. With. With cast members. But the conflict is really the most fun part. Like that's, that's honestly the best. I can't even act like highfalutin. Like, no, this is like there's so much more. It's the conflict. The conflict is great, but what's. Here's where they're all you also, there's a talent in driving conflict without seeming while also feeling authentic. If you watch a crappy reality show, and I actually have a whole thing that like Bravo reality shows, especially the Real Housewives, are like high quality reality tv. Like these are made very well and they don't condescend to the audience. Whereas you look at something that might be like on, I don't know, E. Or some random network and it's just like Great American country or something. It's all blatantly scripted. And these are not actors. And they sit there reading their lines. It's like, we know you're reading lines to us. Why are you doing this to us?

[Will Friedel]

Right?

[Ben Mandelker]

And it's there. You feel like the fights are for fighting sake. Whereas a really good reality star, you feel like the fight is coming from a real place that was like earned. And again, I don't know. I don't know. What is that talent?

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

Is that having some kind intuition?

[Ryder Strong]

If you had to guess then just curiously, because obviously reality has boomed so much in the last 20 years or so. What's Genesis? What was the first reality show?

[Ben Mandelker]

Well, I think scholars would say it was like, I think it was called American life in the 70s on PBS or American Family. There was a docudrama back then that famously was kind of like the first reality tv. And then, you know, you could probably make various arguments about, you know, documentaries. I mean, you could say up the north, right? But I think that when we really come back into reality TV as we know it, it's the real world, like right back in 1991, 92. Okay, real world, everything that was going on with MTV in the 90s and then. But, like, the reality TV as we know it as, like, reality TV is like Survivor. Survivor is like the next really big benchmark.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

And then that's just what the genre has been. And that was obviously, like, competition. And in terms of, like, docudramas is the Real World. The Real World and Survivor are like the big ones.

[Ryder Strong]

And Real World, that first one, that was like the Eric Nice.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. Real World, right?

[Ryder Strong]

That was New York, right? Yeah. Okay, well, because I remember you talking about conflict in a villain, the first name that pops into my head is Puck. You remember, right?

[Ben Mandelker]

From San Francisco.

[Ryder Strong]

From San Francisco, yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

So Beauty Murray, they. They produced Real World. And famously, I forget who. Who was in what department, but I think that maybe Jonathan Murray came from the world of documentaries, and Marielle's Bunham came from the world of soap. Or maybe it was the other way around, but they kind of merged soap and documentary together, which really did kind of, like, lay the foundation for reality tv. And, like, obviously, Real Housewives totally is in that camp, you know, And I think, like, the other thing is, like, the talent. You could make an argument that the talent is being funny because. Right. The best.

[Will Friedel]

Entertaining, maybe. Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. Just to be funny. I have actually, like, a little theory that, like, or sitcoms are kind of in a. In a rough place right now.

[Will Friedel]

They're gone.

[Ben Mandelker]

I know they're kind of gone because you. But you go and you watch, like, the Real Housewives, and they're, like, hilarious. Like, if. Like. And you. That's the way you really have to watch these shows is these are actually our comedies now.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

And they're doing things that are actually way funnier than if you turn on, like, Happy's Place on NBC. You know, no offense, if you guys are associated with.

[Ryder Strong]

No, no, no.

[Will Friedel]

And in some ways, they're actually. It's a subtler form of comedy, too, because you have to be watching real behavior and, like, small little micro moments to know what's going on.

[Ben Mandelker]

And actually. So that's where I think a lot of credit goes to the post. Post department and the producers on these shows. Because if you think about it, you're filming people going out to lunch, going shopping. Yeah. For weeks on end. And you have to be able to watch that footage and. And see that knowing look from someone and be like, oh, we need to put that reaction shot in. Because that is like, highlighting the comedy in the scene. Like, they actually have to draw out a lot of comedy, and they do actually, a really good job.

[Will Friedel]

Right. Okay. So as somebody who's never seen a single episode of Housewives, really, I mean, I definitely have seen scenes or clips.

[Ryder Strong]

Same.

[Will Friedel]

But, like, I'm curious how much of this is, like, aspirational, like, oh, this is a lifestyle I wish I could live. And how much of it is like, oh, these people are awful. I'm so glad I don't have that lifestyle. Do you know what I mean?

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Will Friedel]

Like, what is the ratio? Like, it. Does it alternate from scene to scene, from person to person? Or is there an overall. Overall feeling like, are we supposed to be laughing at these people and feeling good about our less wealthy lives? Or are we supposed to be like, I can't wait to be one of them?

[Ben Mandelker]

I think it's all of the above.

[Will Friedel]

Okay. Yeah, I was afraid you'd say that.

[Ben Mandelker]

I think when this show came out, the vibe was like, look at these wealthy women in Orange county who live in the gated community and they're spending thousands of dollars. When they go shopping, they don't have a care in the world. Isn't this wild? You know, so you're kind of like rubbernecking and you're making. You are making fun of them because you're. It is aspirational. But you're also saying, you know, like, wow, it must be great to have money. But, like, they're wretched people. You know, These are terrible people.

[Will Friedel]

I would be feeding the homeless. I would be doing something.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Will Friedel]

Noble if I was in that.

[Ben Mandelker]

Totally out of touch with reality. And they don't understand anything. And I think that's still the pulse that's through all of these shows. But what's funny is every now and then, like a poorer person, a quote unquote poorer person, AKA probably someone's just like, you know, middle class. Right. Sort of like gets in and we all are like, why are we. Why are we here in her three bedroom house? Like, we don't want to see this. Yeah. No, for real. Like, there's a woman right now.

[Will Friedel]

Immediately people just want to shut it off.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. We're like, what is this? You know, there's a woman right now who's been on Orange county for like, several years and she's like, just solidly a perfect. Like, just lives in middle class life, but. And we're all like, every time it's the way her scenes come on Gina, it's like, oh, here comes Gina again. And like, that's part of her story, is that she was married and then she got divorced, so she moved into A tiny house and everything. And then she's got. She now she has, like a nice. She has a nice little McMansion now. And. But, like, there's still. Her vibe is, like, very much not aspirational. And so when you say, are we looking at it for aspirational? Like, I don't ever think I watch these shows to be like, I want to be just like them, but clearly I have a reaction against, like, who is this person who. Who's like, you know what, the poor who came on our tv.

[Ryder Strong]

Right. You know what this sounds like to me? And it's a world that. That we did not write or I did not know either in any way, shape, or form. This sounds exactly like being a baby face or a heel in professional wrestling.

[Ben Mandelker]

I was just about to say that. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

[Ryder Strong]

It's theatrical. Somebody's good, somebody's bad. You're seeing the fighting. It's human fighting. I mean, it's. It's this. That's all it is, is professional wrestling.

[Ben Mandelker]

I often actually equate reality TV to professional wrestling, especially when the Hills was on. Do you guys. Did you guys ever watch the Hills?

[Ryder Strong]

No, but I know it. It's like kind of a reality show. But it was a scripted reality show, right?

[Ben Mandelker]

It was definitely like a reality show, but like, yes, for sure. Like, the thing that would always circle around it was, is this scripted? Is this scripted? It feels like it's scripted. And to this day, that's something that plagues every reality show. And most people, I think people who just love the genre or love these shows, just say, you know, it's like professional wrestling. Yeah, scripted, but who cares, right? Give me a good story and I'm happy.

[Ryder Strong]

Right?

[Ben Mandelker]

And I think that's where they're very, very similar in that way.

[Ryder Strong]

God, it's so strange. Well, I mean, I guess it is when you. When you think about reality with this. This type of reality show. Yeah, what it is is what we talk about all the time is the micro world. And so it's a world you normally would never see or have anything to do with that. Now you're thrown into. I mean, weird example. So years ago, I played Dungeons and Dragons, and they had those little minifigures, and I didn't know how to paint one, so we did a show where people taught me how to paint one. Okay, that seems like nothing. But then you learn about this world and there's these crystal brush awards and. Oh, you're talking about this guy. He's been Painting for years. And all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, there's an entire world here that I knew nothing about.

[Ben Mandelker]

Oh, my goodness. I have, I mean, speed of Dungeons and Dragons. I have like, I'm in the board game hobby too, which is like adjacent, you know, I have behind, like behind this camera that you're looking. You're just looking at Warcraft. That's the best. There are all these worlds. And I think that actually, I mean, if, if we can get really academic about it, I think that like. Right. I think the rise of the Internet, I'm gonna, by the way, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put forward a theory that I had done no research on.

[Ryder Strong]

Say that's modern day science. That's what you're talking about.

[Ben Mandelker]

Theory. But we all, we are kind of alien. Like we have the rise of the enemy. We're all sort of like fractured in these different places with what we watch, what we listen to. We don't have our. We don't have like water coolers anymore. The water cooler moment doesn't really exist in the same way. We don't all even go to the office, right. And we're all just kind of silent, off into our own interests. And so then what we do is we find community. We're drawn to community in these interests. That's why we have like a rise of podcasts that are around. Bravo. There's podcasts that are around minis. I know that, like I, you know, and painting them and everything. And by the way, mad respect to you for painting your minis. That's really hard to do.

[Ryder Strong]

Thank you.

[Ben Mandelker]

I haven't really teetered into the world of minis.

[Ryder Strong]

I'll teach you. It's easy. You teach me. Bravo. I'll teach you minis.

[Ben Mandelker]

I have several friends who are in the world of minis, but I haven't gone that far yet. But either way, we like. So, you know, when I sit here and I talk about the Real Housewives, have all this lore. To be in a community that like all knows the lore and can speak the same language is like really comforting.

[Will Friedel]

Totally.

[Ben Mandelker]

When we're all kind of watching different things, we're all just sort of isolated in our interests, you know.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, we've noticed that as well too because, you know, we do the conventions and we. The targeted conventions are becoming more popular, you know, 90s con, nostalgia con. And I know that BravoCon Christmas convention is huge, but BravoCon is enormous. I mean, it's like this has become a big thing where, you know, this is people getting together and it's your culture, quote unquote, of the people that are dressing like housewives. You know, I hate this one. Or I love this one. Or how. I mean, yeah, so straight. You might as well be dressed like Slytherin or, or, or, you know, it's, it's.

[Ben Mandelker]

Right. Well, I mean, it's, it's. So I went to my first Bravo Con this year in November. In fact, hilariously, I'd never gone to a convention, like properly a convention where like I booked a hotel room. I've like, sort of gone. I've like done like a few hours at maybe something here in LA, like at the E3 or something, but I've never like done the thing where I book a room and have a three day pass. And I went to BravoCon, my first convention, and then four days later I went to my second convention, which was a board game convention. Yeah. And so I literally just like dove in. I did back to back conventions, which I don't know if I would recommend to anyone doing that. And also that pivot. The pivot from like the world of Bravo to board games.

[Will Friedel]

But now in the Bravo one, were you recognized? Did people know?

[Ryder Strong]

Yes.

[Will Friedel]

I was gonna say you. It seems like you should be on a panel at that convention or something.

[Ben Mandelker]

We were. So we actually, Ronnie and I got to be moderators for one of the panels for one of the TV shows, which is great. Which is super cool. It's a weird space. It's like, it's kind of a head trip when there. Because all the, like, there's like a, there's like a social ladder that happens at bravocom. So all the Real Housewives, who in the world of celebrity are pretty d lists, at BravoCon, they become a lists. Yeah. And then if you're a podcaster, you're not even on a list to begin with. But then at Bravo Con, you become like the C lister.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

People recognize you, but you're not afforded necessarily the same access. I was like, oh, this is what it's like. I was like, I get it. I understand why the Real Housewives sometimes go crazy because you get people recognizing you everywhere, but you don't get any of the respect of someone who is also being recognized. But it's just on a different tier of celebrity. And I thought that was such a fascinating thing to experience.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay, so very quickly then, if you didn't just out the gate, you don't even think about it. Who's the most popular housewife of all Time.

[Ben Mandelker]

Most popular of all time. Yeah, I would probably say Nene Leakes from Real Housewives of Atlanta. I think that she's probably the number one most popular Nini.

[Ryder Strong]

She.

[Ben Mandelker]

She was like. She was on Real Housewives of Atlanta. She is like, there's been no one ever like her. Oh, she's just super funny. Raise it, like, super quick. That's the talent right there, is to be quick and to be ready. And when someone comes at you that you can, like, pull up a read if. If possible, if you can come back, if you can say, well, when you have to be like a lawyer, the moment that someone brings up something, you have to be ready on the counterattack. She was great like that. And she.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, I recognize her.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, she's been in a million memes. She is iconic. Sort of towards the end of her run, she kind of. I feel like the fame got to her head and she sort of, you know, in my mind, she kind of flamed out. But now that she's been off Bravo for many years, you definitely have come to appreciate, like, she's, like, the number one. I would say she's, like the number one most popular. There may have been a time where Bethany Frankel was number one, but she's like, she's Michigan.

[Ryder Strong]

So who's. Who's most hated?

[Ben Mandelker]

Well, I think this week it's Jill Zarin. I don't know if you saw this. Did you get. You guys hear about this? So Jill Zarin, formerly of the Real Housewives of New York, she was on the first four seasons of that show. She got fired in 2015 or so and. Or 2010. I don't know. But she has been. God, she's been wanting to come back to the Real Housewives for years and years and years.

[Ryder Strong]

I have heard about this. I did hear about that. Just googled. I did hear about this.

[Ben Mandelker]

So a few years ago, Bravo overhauled the Real House of New York and got rid of the old cast, much to the chagrin of a lot of the fans. And so, like, literally two weeks ago, two and a half weeks ago, E. Announced that they were going to start a new reality show called the Golden Life and was going to star, like, the original Real Houses of New York people, including Jill Zarin. And, like, everyone's excited because it's like, the original cast. The super bowl comes around, and Bad Bunny does his amazing halftime show. But not everyone is a fan, and Jill Zarin is one of them. And she goes onto Instagram and she's like, you know what? This was Crazy. This was. You know, I didn't even understand what they're saying. And where were the white people? I didn't see a single white person. This felt like a protest. It feels like very political. And Lady Gaga. What's going on with the face? Mind you, Jules, Aaron now looks like a beach ball, but she's saying, like, what? I can't even recognize Lady Gaga. And so she does this whole thing, and everyone's just like, Jill's Aaron. It becomes a thing because it's racist. When she's like, where are the white people? You know, it's like, I don't even understand. I don't understand the language. She's complaining and she's saying, it's a shame. It's just shameful, shameful, shameful. And everyone just got so mad at her. And E fired her. So she. Before the show could even begin shooting, she got fired off a big comeback.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, no.

[Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

She's most hated at the moment.

[Will Friedel]

Okay, so what. What season or what cities are their housewives in at currently?

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, wait, let me try to answer. Let me try to answer. Let me see if I. If I've. If I've learned anything from my wife.

[Ben Mandelker]

Okay.

[Ryder Strong]

New York.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes. Although New York is like. New York is like. Yes. But they're sort of on, like.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

They're figuring out their cast. Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

But O.C.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

Is there still Beverly Hills?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

Atlanta?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

Was there Potomac?

[Ben Mandelker]

That's gone.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, there is.

[Ben Mandelker]

There is no Potomac is happening there. They have a new episode coming up this Sunday.

[Ryder Strong]

Is there Salt Lake?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, wow.

[Ben Mandelker]

Are there more, or is that it? There's Miami.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

And starting, I think next month, we have Rhode Island, a new one.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay. Really?

[Will Friedel]

So each one of these has their own, like, sort of personality.

[Ben Mandelker]

Did you say New Jersey?

[Ryder Strong]

I did not. And New Jersey. Okay, I got. I missed a bunch. I missed a bunch.

[Ben Mandelker]

That's like, New Jersey. Like, we don't know what's going on with New Jersey. It's like having a moment. They're. They're. They're figuring things out, you know, but.

[Ryder Strong]

You'Re not going to be Jersey Shore for just a Jersey show, by the way.

[Ben Mandelker]

You're just. It's.

[Ryder Strong]

And so each one of these has.

[Will Friedel]

A distinct personality or distinct culture, Right. Like, what is the. Like, the reputation of, like, is. OC Is the original one, right?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah.

[Will Friedel]

So what is. What. Could you describe its personality in a nutshell?

[Ben Mandelker]

So osu. The original one. So I think it was just purely capitalizing off of zeitgeisty. Things at the time. At the time, I think it was, like, largely known for being blonde women from Orange county who are rich. You know, I think it was maybe even trying to push kind of like what the Californian stereotype was. And in fact, I think for the first. The first several iterations of the show, they were trading on stereotypes, regional stereotypes, right? So you go to New Jersey, and it's like, oh, look, it's really Italian Americans. You go to New York. And it actually. New York wasn't really like. Like, there's only, I think, one Jill Zarin, I think was like our primarily primary. I think she was like, our only Jewish cast member. But the vibe was very much like that. Like, yeah, like New York. I'm Jewish, by the way.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah, he just canceled. You. He just canceled.

[Ben Mandelker]

I'm like, the vibe was my family.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

But, like, fast talking. Right? Fast talking. Like the New York stereotype.

[Ryder Strong]

Right, right.

[Ben Mandelker]

We have Atlanta, where we're seeing an African American cast, and so we're sort of like, Bravo's trading in on. On stereotypes, and it's actually like. But that's also what Jersey Shore did. You just mentioned it, but one of the reasons why Jersey Shore was such a huge hit was at that time, there were viral videos going around that was like, look. Look at Jersey Shore. Look at all these kids on spring break, and they had the crazy hair and the tans and everything. And so MTV was like, we want to go into a community that we're just sort of seeing from the outside and, like, isn't this crazy? And I think that's kind of what these shows were all doing.

[Ad Voice]

Right?

[Ben Mandelker]

But I think it sort of moved. It started to move away from that. It's just like, let's find an enclave. Enclave of wealthy women. Salt Lake City sort of took us into Mormonism. Like, look at these Mormons. But.

[Ryder Strong]

But then they did the real. The real lives of Mormon wives. Right? That's the other.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, the secret lives. Yeah. Secret lives, yeah. Salt Lake City, actually, there's, like, one or two who are, like, really about Mormonism, but it really wasn't like, we're gonna peel off. We're not gonna. Like. It was not a Mormon expose by any means. And so later seasons, like Potomac and Dallas, which is. Dallas is gone now. But those were just more like, here's. We're going to a city, and here's some wealthy people.

[Will Friedel]

Some people, right?

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[Will Friedel]

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[Ben Mandelker]

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[Will Friedel]

Okay, well we've been 40 minutes.

[Ryder Strong]

That's just Real Housewives.

[Ben Mandelker]

I mean my God, we haven't even.

[Will Friedel]

Gotten to Traitors yet. So let's, let's let's dive into Traitors and specifically this season. Okay, so Candace and Lisa are housewives, and they were both made traders right off the bat.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yes.

[Will Friedel]

What. What did this mean for someone like you who knew more about them or there. Had they been on a show together or.

[Ben Mandelker]

Candace was from Pomaic. Lisa Rinna was on Real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

[Ryder Strong]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to. I don't mean to correct you. It's Lisa Rinna.

[Ben Mandelker]

Lisa, yeah. Which is a phrase that Denise Richards came up with, I'd like to point out.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

Serena has made of her own. So I was very excited because. What. What's. It's also. It's been very exciting for me because I watch the show with almost. Almost everyone who I sit and watch it with every Thursday. They don't watch the Housewives, so they have no context.

[Ad Voice]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

Of who even Candace is. And it's hilarious because the Candace that you guys have seen has been very, you know, like, very composed, very measured, Shady, but measured. But the candidates that I know, she will go off on a bitch. Okay. She will really go off. Oh, yes, she goes off. She. She reads people to fulfill. Like she. But. And then she will go off on someone, and then she's very quick that when someone comes back at her to start crying and she's. And, like, she's so dramatic.

[Ryder Strong]

So was that a red flag for you then right away that her personality had changed so much on Traders that you're like. I instantly would have thought maybe she was a traitor because she's just not like she was on the Housewives.

[Ben Mandelker]

The housewives act differently on the Traders, which is interesting.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

I think. I think they know that they're extra. So they have. They do rein it in a bit. And I read something, an article last week that had a really interesting theory that on the Real Housewives, the cast members know that their personality has to propel the story forward, but on the Traitors, the format of the show propels the story forward. So they don't have to be as extra. And also being extra on the show, they do know enough that being extra is a liability.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, totally.

[Ben Mandelker]

Because, like, honestly, a lot of the Housewives have been way more restrained on the Traitors than they are on their Real Housewives shows.

[Will Friedel]

So is that true of Lisa, too, then? You felt that she was being more restrained?

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, well, Lisa, when Lisa has had a. Had an interesting journey on the Housewives, she came in obviously already established as a personal Persona from Soaps, Mellows Place and various other reality shows. And when she came onto Real Housewives, Of Beverly hills. It was kind of like a big get. It's like, whoa. They got, like, a real celebrity to be on this show. And. And she sort of came on, and the. The Lisa that you saw in the beginning of the traders Was what we saw in Beverly Hills, which is that she was sort of like your friendly neighbor. Be like, hi, how are. How's it going? And she just would be very agreeable, but she would stir the pot. And by the end of her time on. On Real housewives, she sort of got caught up in the whole swirl of it, and she kind of became a big villain. And so you sort of see the same thing happening on the traitors. Right. Like, once. Once she was put in the hot seat, her personality changed. But I personally was excited to see her as a traitor Because I know that she can stir the pot really well, and I was actually hoping that she would have done more of that. And she actually was. She fell into that trap of being too passive. Right. And so then she got clocked by Colton, of all people, which made me so mad.

[Ryder Strong]

And she also, though, I have to say, as one of the few actual actors on the show, Some of her acting wasn't particularly good on traitors, where it was, like, that came off as kind of fake, which was strange.

[Ben Mandelker]

She had, like, a lot of headway. Like, she. She got a lot of. She got a good head start on being able to craft her defense and start to shape the narrative.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

And she's like, I'm gonna get to work. I'm an actress. I could do this. And then she does nothing. Yeah. Lisa, why aren't you doing anything? Why aren't you starting to plant seeds about Colton? And when Colton. When Colton sat down with you and said, I know you're a traitor, but I want to take you to the end. Like, why did you not weaponize that against him? Why don't you say something like, colton just accused me of this.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, good call. That's a good call.

[Ben Mandelker]

Unfortunately, he's wrong. But you guys should all know, like, he's not here for us. He's only.

[Will Friedel]

He.

[Ben Mandelker]

If. If I had been a traitor, he would have made a deal with me and then would have sold out every single one here of you guys here. So whether or not he's a traitor, I don't know.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, Ben, that's such a good.

[Ben Mandelker]

They have to get rid of it.

[Will Friedel]

That is such a good move.

[Ben Mandelker]

Well played.

[Ryder Strong]

Well played.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

Why didn't you do that?

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

Why don't she. And why don't you even say, not only do I think that he might be a traitor, I think he was trying to find the secret traitor because they don't know. The faithful don't know who the traitor is.

[Will Friedel]

Right, Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

You know, for all they know, Donna Kelsey was a. Was a. Was a normie traitor.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay. So the other question that, you know, I want to ask because they. At one point, when they have the. The. The dinner scene, the big. The big red wedding dinner scene, essentially the black banquet. The black banquet.

[Ben Mandelker]

Black banquet.

[Ryder Strong]

And they. As Jam. Jam's being let out, he says, is, it's Lisa. She kissed me. And housewives don't ever kiss you on the cheek. Is that a thing, or was he just making that up?

[Ben Mandelker]

He was making that up. And what was shocking to me was that Lisa didn't immediately. She goes, no, I didn't.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

Denial doesn't work on these shows.

[Will Friedel]

No.

[Ben Mandelker]

What you have to say is, you know what? This is because of Colton, because Colton just drew my name out of nowhere. Right.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

Just got dirt on it the way he did with Tiffany, the way he did with Michael, and now he's decided it's me, and he thinks he's some genius just because he, along with everyone else, sniffed out Donna Kelsey. He put. He put stink on my name, and now Jam. Jam's throwing it out, and it's a witch hunt, and I'm not gonna stand for it. And it's offensive. So she should have been, like, righteous or something.

[Ryder Strong]

Right. And Candace. But Candace should have also jumped up and be like, but she kissed me on the cheek. Like, it would have been so easy to be like, no, she kissed me too. Like, that's how. That's how you. You protect another trader. It's just like, wait, it's like, no, can't be that she kissed me.

[Ben Mandelker]

It's risky, though.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah. It was just so interesting. We didn't know if there was like, are there rules to a housewife that we don't know? They don't. They don't kiss on the cheeks, Handshakes. Like, what the hell do we not know?

[Ben Mandelker]

They are, in fact, allowed to kiss on the cheek. Although you saw the thing that. That Kristen Kish said recently on social media, which is that they went through HR training and they were told they're not allowed to kiss each other. So, like, there never would have been a kiss because of HR training. I mean, I don't know if that's. I don't know if that logic really will work on. On everyone. Yeah. But. Yeah, Rinna, she's. I think she's just like not good on the fly. There was an episode of Real House, House of Beverly Hills. She had talked about Kim Richards, former child star Kim Richards, who was a cast member.

[Ryder Strong]

She had a drinking thing. I. I remember this. Yes. She had a big problem.

[Ben Mandelker]

So Rinna had talked about Kim's like drinking or something like that or her druggies. And then they had a party. And like Kyle Richards, Kim's sister goes up to Rinna and it's like, did you talk about my sister? Even though it was blatantly on camera, Rinna just goes like this. And she looks left around. She goes, I don't know. She's like, I don't remember. Oh, my God. So she sort of has a history.

[Will Friedel]

Of like, just not being good at confrontation.

[Ben Mandelker]

She doesn't come up with a cover story really quickly.

[Ryder Strong]

That Kyle Richards. I know that she's been on forever, right?

[Ben Mandelker]

Since the first season.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. That. Because I. The reason I know this writer is because they were child actors. Like, they grew up. I mean, acting from the time they were. Was Secret of Witch Mountain or something. I mean, they, they'd been in things from the time they were kids.

[Ben Mandelker]

Kim was like the bigger child star. Yeah, but they both were on. I think Kyle was on. They both were in Halloween or Kyle was in Halloween and she still is on Halloween. They now they trot her out for the new Halloween.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

Because they know the Bravo fandom. Yeah, we'll talk about it. Which is really smart. And. And Kim and. Yeah, that's. The Richards family is a whole other interesting. You know, and they're like ants to Paris Hilton and all that stuff. Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

But they were child actors and it was really sad because she's obviously got a serious problem.

[Ben Mandelker]

What Kim does. Yeah, I mean, actually Beverly sort of side talk, side side sidetrack. Beverly Hills is interesting as a franchise because that's really become a place where former soap stars or actors, Actresses or actresses, I should say, have wound up. So you have Denise Richards, Garcelle Beauvais, Lisa Rinna, Eileen Davidson. Now Jennifer Tilly is a friend of. And she's an Oscar nominee. Jamie Lee Curtis has shown up on there.

[Will Friedel]

Do their husbands ever show up on the show?

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Will Friedel]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. Big part. Big part of it.

[Will Friedel]

So their husbands. I can't believe so many people agree to do this.

[Ben Mandelker]

Well, I think at first it was much more taboo, but.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

I think now it's not really as taboo. I think people.

[Will Friedel]

Because it can open doors. Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

It's a gamble. You go on, and you could come out, like, beloved, and the world opens up for you, or you go on, and it's the worst thing you probably ever did for yourself.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ryder Strong]

But at the same time, we are unfortunately living in an era of what used to be a joke is kind of true now, where there really almost is no. Unless it's awful. I mean, truly awful. There's really no such thing as bad publicity anymore. It's like you're people. Like, it's like, well, they're talking about me, so that's a good thing. And it's like, is it always a good thing?

[Ben Mandelker]

Well, it's like racism. That's like. I think that's. That's a bad one. Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

Or. Or some kind of sexual deviancy. Sure. Something like that.

[Will Friedel]

Homophobia, which happened, we saw on Traders, you know, like, once. Once Michael Rapaport blurted that out, it was like, dude, walk this back. And he didn't. It's just like, all right, then get.

[Ben Mandelker]

Him off the show. Honestly, when that moment happened, it. It didn't strike me as a homophobic moment. And I say this as a gay man. Also, I'm gonna pull all my cards. I'm Jewish. I'm gay. But it didn't. At that moment, it seemed like he was saying something like, you know what? You would be the best person to do this because you're a trader. Like, to me, it sounded like game talk. I play a lot of social deduction games. You know, I played, like, Secret Hitler, and I play the Resistance Avalon, and. And games like that. I don't know if you guys ever played those.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

But, you know, a lot of times you make these. You. You wind up making these very big, brash statements like that, like, you know, you are the liar, and I'm not taking away that. Colton took it that way because there's intention versus impact. Right. But to me, when Colton said, well, oh, you know, so you're saying that for, like, you know, like, 20. You know, 20, 29 years in the closet was easy for me. I was like, whoa. I was like, he just. In my mind, the way I received that was like, whoa, he just pulled the gay card on Michael Rappaport. That's crazy. Really?

[Will Friedel]

That's so interesting. I. I really thought that there was no other way to interpret the way Michael Rappaport said it other than because you were in the closet. You must have been lying for. You know, you're good at lying.

[Ryder Strong]

I thought that until I read Other things about Colton, which I didn't know about. And then I was like, oh, did Michael Rapport know that Colton had a really sketchy past? Because he's done some really shady.

[Will Friedel]

See, I don't know any of that.

[Ryder Strong]

I didn't either until after we had done our thing. And people were like, we can't call out Michael Rappaport's pass without calling out Colton's pass. And I was like, oh, I didn't know anything about that. So I didn't know if maybe it had something to do with that. I didn't know.

[Ben Mandelker]

Michael Rapaport is garbage.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay?

[Ben Mandelker]

Don't think, like, he's garbage, but he eats so delicately.

[Will Friedel]

Watching him eat is just so delightful.

[Ben Mandelker]

The way he just shovels it in the plate just goes right into the mouth. I mean, like, that was one of the most striking visuals. But, like, I. It's a complicated situation because just because I say, like, oh, wow, I didn't think that's homophobic. That doesn't take away from Colton's reality's reality at the table or Christians or.

[Ryder Strong]

There's obviously a lot of. A lot of people in the gay community there.

[Will Friedel]

I was. I was. I could totally see Michael Rappaport making that point. Not really intending it to be homophobic, but once it's pointed out to him that it's been taken that way.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah.

[Will Friedel]

Like, why he didn't immediately be like, oh, my God. Wow, that's a good point. I did not mean it that way. I totally understand your point of view now. Instead, he just doubled down on it, like, you know what I meant? And it's like, what?

[Ben Mandelker]

No, he was. It was a mess. He could have. He should have actually managed that moment. Just as a person. He should have totally. But also as a game player, he should have, because he should realize, oh, Colton's doing this. And I just got. But, you know, Colton really drove me nuts. I thought Colton was so cocky. And the truth is this. Colton came really hard at Tiffany with little to no. His. The cornerstone of Colton's argument about Tiffany was that she told Michael Rappaport to get into the cage during that one challenge. And because she did that, it was like, oh, well, she's wearing the. She's wearing the pants of this relationship, so therefore, she must be a traitor. Like, that was literally it.

[Ad Voice]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

And it was so obnoxious. And I guess where I was really disturbed was that, you know, he singles out Tiffany for being too confident, which really could read as a microaggression, quite frankly. Is he Saying that's like a black woman, and calling her out for being too bold, too strong, and, like, she could have. She could have played a card on him. She could have said, oh, you're saying that to me as. Because I'm black, or something like that. She didn't. And she knows she does, and she knows she can. And she. The reason why she doesn't is because everyone will be like, oh, you're playing a card. And so she doesn't have the privilege of being able to pull a card like that, whereas Colton does. And that's something that is, like, really bothered me, honestly.

[Will Friedel]

That's super interesting. Wow.

[Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Will Friedel]

I mean, going in without any history, like, you know, I don't watch football. I don't watch any of the reality. So I have no idea who he was. I just found it. I appreciated that at least he was playing the game because so many other people are just not doing anything. But it turns out because I've never seen Traders until this season, that's actually the best strategy is to not be too aggressive.

[Ben Mandelker]

I know he was actually. I mean, I. So I don't watch the Bachelor. I'm not. That's like, I'm not. I don't do the whole Bachelor bastionation thing. I really don't know anything about Colton. I had heard that he'd done some sketchy things with his past. I, of course, knew that he was the Bachelor, but then he came out the closet, but I knew nothing about him. And in the first episode, I was sort of like, wow, he's hot. That was, like, the extent of it. But then it's just that he became so smug, and it, like, really bothered me that he was very smug and that he.

[Ad Voice]

He.

[Ben Mandelker]

I felt like he took a lot of credit for Donna Kelsey when I felt like everyone was suspicious to Donna Kelsey. And I thought that was. I was like, that's strange that he really seems to be acting like, oh, because I saw that Donna Kelsey, everything. I know every is gonna be totally right. Right? So he comes in hard on Tiffany with a theory that holds no water, and he's wrong. And his takeaway is not, ooh, I should rethink this. His takeaway is, well, I'm just gonna go at it 100 again, because that's what I do.

[Will Friedel]

I'm gonna take the next person to just charge after.

[Ben Mandelker]

I'm like, this is. What's. This is how we get into issues here. This is such a bad way to approach things. And so it's so unhelpful and that he just does it again. And it's just like the fact that he's just like, yeah, whatever. I have a. I have an idea and I'm just gonna go for it. And I'm gonna go. I'm just gonna go hard, whatever destruction may come. Because I've decided that I don't need to rethink what I do. I can just shoot. Shoot my gun off in any different direction and see what happens. And I just like, it's sort of like, bothered me and I know it's like it's looking way too deeply into the Traders and someone. But I think maybe at this time in American history, like, moments like this, like, get me like really mess add, you know?

[Will Friedel]

All right, well, let's do a little roll call of everyone from the Bravo verse in the season of Traders. Caroline from Dubai.

[Ben Mandelker]

Oh, yeah. Real Housewives of Dubai. Yes. Yes.

[Will Friedel]

I didn't know there was a Housewives of Dubai.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, you didn't know there was a Housewives of New Jersey writer.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah. Dubai was like a two season experiment. And then.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, it's done already.

[Ben Mandelker]

Buy it to goodbye.

[Ryder Strong]

Wow, that was quick. Okay, gotcha.

[Ben Mandelker]

I had a really good second season, actually.

[Will Friedel]

Dorinda is a housewife from. She's from New York City. Okay.

[Ryder Strong]

Like to talk about her a little bit.

[Will Friedel]

Sure.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, because she seems like. I watched last season of Traders. Rider hasn't seen this and she was like the first person kicked off and she was very sad about it and everybody was very upset and it was like, oh, poor Dorinda. And then she came on this year and you're kind of rooting for.

[Will Friedel]

For.

[Ryder Strong]

And then Ron, who seems like the nicest guy in the world, gets voted off the show and he comes out and he says that she was not a particularly nice person to him.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

And so I'm curious, is that in keeping with Dorinda? Is that something we. We should. We would know if we watched Housewives or does this seem like out of character for her?

[Ben Mandelker]

It's. Dorinda is a complicated person. The.

[Ryder Strong]

She.

[Ben Mandelker]

She can see red really quickly. It's not something that you're really seeing on the season. We're seeing a very, very muted Dorinda. She.

[Ad Voice]

She.

[Ben Mandelker]

She has like, she's very interesting because she's like, very warm and her vibe is like, very maternal. And she wants to feel. When she says, like, I'm a natural server, like, she does, like, want to serve you and help you and everything, but, like, she's like, you cannot mess with her. You cannot she is. She is gonna be like, I don't like that. And then she'll. She will come at you hard, especially if she has some martinis in her. And the thing is that I guess they don't. They don't drink in the castle. And if she were drinking, you would be really seeing the true Dorinda. So it's weird, though, with the Ron situation because he said that she was like. I think he sort of suggested that she wasn't even. That she was maybe even problematic, which is.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

Because she actually seems like. That's one area that she seems to be pretty good with.

[Will Friedel]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

So some people view her as, like, a mean alcoholic. I'm not gonna lie. That is like, people who don't like Dorinda will be like, oh, she's a mean alcoholic. She's like, get her off my tv. But for those of us who love her, we see her as a complicated person who. Who does not stand for any. And so I don't know. But the thing is, unfortunately, she sometimes will sense a. She will sometimes feel aggressed when maybe there was no aggression there. So I don't know what happened, but it's hard. I, like, I'm, like, not mentally ready to.

[Ryder Strong]

Throw her under the bus. Gotcha.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, I'm not there. I'm not gonna do it.

[Will Friedel]

All right, then we had Portia from. She was an Atlanta housewife, right?

[Ben Mandelker]

Porsche is such a great, hilarious, over the top personality, and it was so sad to lose her first. That was a real. Yeah, that was a loss for this season. Big.

[Ryder Strong]

She did not play particularly well, and it wasn't her fault. She just kept saying, like, when we killed that guy. And it was like, wait.

[Will Friedel]

It's like when we. Last night and we murdered. It's like, stop.

[Ryder Strong]

What are you doing?

[Ben Mandelker]

No.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

That was last year when Dorinda was voted off first. Like, everyone. All the Bravo people were furious because it's like, she didn't even get to go to a roundtable. We want to see Dorinda. We want to see someone accuse Dorinda something. And for her to come back, like, now you listen to me. Right now, she's just like. And we're all, like, waiting, like, yeah, Durinda's gonna go yell at people. But this time with Portia got voted off. We all love Portia, but we're like, yeah, she kind of did that to herself, like, right? She messed up. She messed up.

[Will Friedel]

But in general, you're a fan of hers. If she had stuck around, it would have been Traitors would have been better for it, huh?

[Ben Mandelker]

She would have been great. Well, also, she and Candice have sort of like a weird history together, so there could have been some interesting friction on that end, but okay, yeah, she was out early. And by the way, another reason why I can't stand Colton is because Ron basically became house pariah after he took out Portia. But where Colton has also had misses left and right.

[Ryder Strong]

And not only that, Ryder and I have talked about this. Ron came with actual receipts, whether or not they turned out to be true or not.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ryder Strong]

He had actual facts.

[Will Friedel]

He was wrong.

[Ryder Strong]

They all have been. Colton just saying names left and right, and he was still there. But Ron, they had to get rid of. And I was like, come on.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, that was like. I loved when Ron Control confronted them and was like, oh, okay. Well, you know, I miss on Porsche, but I'm. I'm like a traitor because you guys like Porsche, but, like, those guys, like, yeah, it's cold. Everyone likes Colton. Like, I love that he called that out. And that was such a good point. And for a moment, I thought it was Ronnie gonna save himself.

[Ryder Strong]

I wish he did. He was. He was great.

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[Ben Mandelker]

You know, it's an interesting thing with the traitors because there's usually like a block of housewives and a block of CBS gameplay. The quote unquote gameplay or Survivor, Big Brother, maybe the MTV challenge. And then there's like random other scattered people and it's like it's always a bummer to me when the Real Housewives get voted off early beat or banished early. Because I think in a game like this, I, the, the, the game players are better at the strategy.

[Will Friedel]

Right?

[Ben Mandelker]

But I think I'm in it more for the personality that the Real Housewives bring. You know, I think that's like more entertaining for me. So it's like.

[Will Friedel]

Well, it's interesting because this is kind of the merging of your two worlds, right? Because the board game thing, like the secret Hitler side of this game is must also, also appeal to you a lot. But then the house. But you, you wish the housewife side would win, win out a little bit more.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, I think we like the big personalities because like right now we've got like Mark Ballas.

[Ryder Strong]

Like he claims. Now here's the thing. He claims that he's talking all the time and they're cutting around him.

[Ben Mandelker]

No, no, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. He's not. If you were talking, we would see him talking at some point. Yeah, at some point, you know, or.

[Will Friedel]

Even if he is talking, it must be so boring that it's just going.

[Ben Mandelker]

To.

[Will Friedel]

Just like, yeah, no one cares. We want to see the personality.

[Ryder Strong]

How do you think about how Rob's been playing?

[Ben Mandelker]

He's. He's doing great. He's doing it drives me nuts. I don't like. I don't like how he turned on Rinna and Candace. And I think that, like, I understood that he had to. You know, I understood why he had to do what he had to do, but he was all. He also went out of his way to do it as well. Like, he could have. When it seemed like, okay, Rena's going down. Like, he could have been like, okay, Rinna's. I gotta vote Rinna. But, like, when she survived that first vote, he went above and beyond to be like, oh, anti Rinna.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, because he knew she was gone. When. When somebody's already voted for you five times, you're not going to save yourself. You're gone. So at that point, as a traitor, he's got it. He's got to cut ties. And I figured Candace would understand that. But then Candace throws out his name.

[Will Friedel]

I think it was more Candace. Candace should have just come to his side at that point. She on the wall.

[Ryder Strong]

Yes.

[Ben Mandelker]

The thing is this, though. I don't know if Rinna was. She had. She definitely was in the stench, but I don't think it was still necessarily that, like, they had to turn on her. Like, I think Rob could have, like, Rob could have entered something new into evidence. He could have been like, so and so is tripping me out. Or he could have been more passive about it. But he actually was active in saying being anti Rinna, which is honestly, like, it's my first game. I just didn't like it. I just felt like it was. I didn't like it was necessary. When Candace. Candace throwing that. That vote on Rob, I was like, oh, this is gonna be the death of her. Because, yeah, he's gonna cut and run because that's what he did on Love Island. He does not like being the bad guy, by the way. And she never saw Love Island. That's what happened on Love Island. And he.

[Ryder Strong]

Did he win that?

[Ben Mandelker]

No.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay.

[Ben Mandelker]

But he. He had the balls to. He was, like, hot and heavy with this one girl. And then a new girl came in the villa. And then he decided he wanted to get to know that new girl. And then the original girl who he's with was, like, upset. And then Rob was like, you don't understand how hard is for me to juggle two amazing women. Like, he made himself the victim. It's kind of awesome.

[Ryder Strong]

He was already preparing for traitors.

[Ben Mandelker]

That's great when people, he. He cuts people. The moment that, like, the moment they don't like him, he's. He's gonna cut them. So when. When Candace did that, because, remember, he was like, how dare she? How dare she write my name down. It's like, dude, you just went above and beyond for Rinna. Right? Like, you have to, like, you have to, like, allow Candace to blow off some steam.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

But it was a bad move on Candace's part.

[Ryder Strong]

Regardless, I'm curious, just a big overall question, just because, for my own edification, you're an expert at this stuff. What's your favorite reality show of all time?

[Ben Mandelker]

Of all time. Yeah, I really like original Real Housewives of New York. That honestly, it's like amazing comedy. It's really, really wonderful. I, you know, Survivor is an amazing, like, as a whole, if you're not to look at specific seasons, Survivor is really a brilliantly made reality TV show. It's. It's pretty exceptional just in the production of it. And I think Traders is great. I think Traders. Traders would be up there. They need to tweak some things. They need to make those challenges more relevant to anything that's going on. I feel like earlier this season, it was. It was in a good place because, you know, the shields, that. That impacts things. But, you know, when they. When they're just, like, earning money for, like, the communal pot, like, we don't care. We don't care about.

[Ryder Strong]

And it's weird amounts of money too. It's like you've earned $13,300. Like, what?

[Ben Mandelker]

And it doesn't. It doesn't reveal any truths about who may or may not be a traitor. Like, if someone underperforms, it doesn't, like, add any evidence that could be used at the round table. And I kind of feel like everything in the show should contribute to that. So there should be some way to undermine the shields more.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, that's smart too. Like, you win one piece of evidence against somebody. Oh, that's kind of a cool idea.

[Ben Mandelker]

So and so was being slow. I think they didn't want us to get the shields. But instead, like all. Everything that's you happens in the challenge really doesn't get to be used in the round table. And I think that's. That's rough. And to go back to, you know, we're talking about the strategy and everything. A lot of my board game friends, there's a big contingent of them that don't like the Traders because they find that the strategy is so bad, they're like, oh, I can't watch that show. No one's using proper strategy. And it doesn't matter because even if you use proper strategy, they recruit a new trader you can't truly, like, figure out. And so, like, the gamer, the gaming purists really struggle with the traders. But I, I think, I think it's a, It's a, it's a great canvas to or. Or arena for really big personalities to try to like, problem solve and figure out things and get reads on people. And that's, like, very fascinating to me. And so the Traders is definitely one of the best and it's produced beautifully and wonderfully.

[Will Friedel]

Wow, that's actually really good to hear because I've been feeling that way. I've been kind of like, is there. Is there something wrong with me? Or does it seem like the strategy is, like, really hard? Like, it just doesn't. I agree. I think it comes down to the missions. Those, they just are kind of random exercises to get them out of the castle and they don't have much bearing on the game, it seems like other than putting people in separate cars so they can gossip, you know, like, doesn't.

[Ben Mandelker]

That doesn't result, actually. Yeah. But, you know, I think that, like, reality TV producers, there's like some prevailing meta in the world of reality TV producing that, oh, we have to have a challenge midway through the episode or else the audience is going to get bored. And it's like the audience is most bored during the challenges. Every now and then there's like an interesting one that's funny, but I feel like the whole show draws to a halt. It comes to a halt as we watch them climb up a hill. And I would rather have 20 extra minutes of roundtable than I would just watching them lug things around. Like, no one wants that. But I think that like every reality TV producer or executive is like, oh, no, the people need to see something exciting. They need to see. They need to see some sort of event. It's like, we don't know. We don't, we don't need that all have to have some. Put some faith in us that we're sophisticated viewers that are, that are perfectly happy to watch humans interact and figure things out.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, they don't do that any of the Bravo shows. Right. It's just, it's people talking. It's conflict in people. They're not, oh, hey, now we're going to run out and try to catch a squirrel. Like, it's none of that kind of stuff.

[Ben Mandelker]

Right?

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

And we all agree like, the most compelling part of the traders is the roundtable, when people are making accusations, defending, throwing things out. And that's all personality based. And the gamers are good because they can be strategic in those moments. But by and large, I think, I think this is the reason why I like the housewives on the show more than the gamers, given that I do watch Survivor and Big Brother, is that at the roundtable, it's where personalities clash and it's like the ability to convince people with your words. And that's like a really big aspect of being especially a Real Housewife. You know, they have reunions and they, they, they air everything out. And so we. I want more of that. And, and that's why sometimes, like, you'll get someone who's good on Survivor, but they're just dull at the round table.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Will Friedel]

All right, well, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been.

[Ryder Strong]

Can you come back, please?

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

So many other questions.

[Ad Voice]

Anytime.

[Ben Mandelker]

I love this. I love. Are you guys, Are you guys east coast or West Coast?

[Ryder Strong]

West coast or West Coast?

[Ben Mandelker]

Okay, well, let's, let's do this. Let's. Let's hang out. Let's do it all.

[Ryder Strong]

Are you east coast or west coast?

[Ben Mandelker]

No, I'm west coast.

[Will Friedel]

Oh, okay, good.

[Ryder Strong]

Because we also, we're trying to figure out, we're trying to navigate the world of reality. Neither Ryder and I really know it at all. And so we started with Dancing with the Stars because our best friend was on it and that. And now we're kind of delving into this world of which we're lost.

[Ben Mandelker]

You know, there's a lot of reality tv. I get on a little bit of a high horse with reality TV because I, as a podcaster of reality tv, often face snobbery. Yeah, snobbery. It could come in the form of, like, certain, certain accolades or whatever. But, like, a lot of times you'll be shocked at how many times people say, oh, what do you do? And I say, oh, I have a podcast. What's it about? Real Housewives. Bravo. And there'll be a good chunk of people that'll be like, oh, my God, that's amazing. But you would be shocked at the number of people that say, oh, I don't know how you could watch that stuff. Could you imagine saying that to anyone? Like, look, I don't make these shows and I make fun of them, but I'm also a fan. And, like, there's a huge amount of snobbery. And I, I have, I have a, I have a Friend who. Who has. Who wrote a Marvel movie. And I didn't realize this when I first met him, and I started going off on Marvel movies because I think Marvel movies are just like. To me, they're just like, direct.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah, I'm with you.

[Ben Mandelker]

To me. Look at me doing what I just got mad about. But, like, to me, they just don't speak to me, right? And I just feel like it's the same thing over and over again. And so I did this whole thing. I went like, oh, my God, Marvel movies.

[Ryder Strong]

Ugh.

[Ben Mandelker]

Banham exists. I did the whole thing. And then someone's like, well, you know that Tom wrote a Marvel movie.

[Ryder Strong]

I was gonna say it was Tom DeSanto, wasn't it?

[Ben Mandelker]

No, no, it wasn't. But, like, I had such shame and I had such embarrassment, and it was kind of like, wow, Ben, can't believe you just said that about Marvel when you know that Tom wrote that. And yet no one feels any sort of way about, like, oh, like, oh, I'm gonna just like on the Real Housewives. Like, I didn't watch that garbage. Just women talking, women fighting, right? And I'm like, well, I love it. Like, well, I don't know how you could like it. Like, no one has any. No one has that moment, like, oops, sorry. Because it's just assumed that this stuff is bottom the barrel of garbage.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, I'd like to apologize because I'm guilty of that. I do that myself. And it's because everyone I get in my head, it's killing the TV that I love. And instead of going, well, this is what the audience wants. And that's right, what TV is supposed to be is entertaining the audience. And if this is what the audience wants, who am I to be like, well, this version's good and that version's bad.

[Ad Voice]

Right.

[Ryder Strong]

But it's just that I've grown up with one thing, and I think one thing is more artistic than the other thing. So I will instantly on the other thing. And that's really not fair.

[Will Friedel]

I also. I also think there's a big, like, cultural hangover from the. The. For me, like, and this is what, you know, Will and I have talked about this a little bit is like, reality has changed so much. And I feel like in the, like, early aughts period, there was a really toxic reality culture.

[Ben Mandelker]

And there still is.

[Will Friedel]

I think there still is a segment. But in general, the idea of reality is I feel like it's earned a place in our culture that it can be positive, you know, like something like Survivor. I mean, I remember reading the articles when Survivor first came out. People were saying, like, this is the end of, you know, all time. Because look at that. We're sending people to an island. And, like, so I didn't watch it. You know, I sort of rolled my eyes that Survivor existed until, like, 2012. I started watching it. Now I'm like, this show is brilliant. It is so incredibly constructed. He is an incredible, incredible host. And, like, it's. It's an amazing social experiment that it tells us a lot about. You know, now I kind of make my son watch it. He loves it. But, you know, at 11 years old, I'm like, this is really good for you to see, like, how people treat each other and how they. Whether they have respect and, you know, you understand that it's a game. But, like, you know, this is.

[Ryder Strong]

This.

[Will Friedel]

It does teach you something about human behavior that I find really educational.

[Ben Mandelker]

But also, like, Survivor has great storytelling.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

And I think that's kind of what the audience wants, whether it's going to be scripted or reality. And I think what's hard with reality TV is that the snobbery that gets sort of launched at reality TV is that people just sort of think reality TV is nothing more than the worst that gets thrown out there. There's, like, terrible reality tv. Like, terrible, terrible, terrible reality tv. And people will. People. When you look at comedy or dramas, people will acknowledge that there's amazing prestige dramas and there's crappy dramas.

[Ryder Strong]

Sure.

[Ben Mandelker]

Acknowledge that there's, like, comedies and then some garbage comedies out there. Right. But when people look at reality tv, they're just like, it's all just bad. And it's like. No, it's like, this is a genre that's been around for 26 years now.

[Will Friedel]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

And it has evolved. And there are. There, you know, you. There's sophisticated product that's being made and actually, like, the people who are like, to make the Real Housewives, to make the traders, to find the moments to choose, like, what is the story that we're gonna tell? Does require craft, and it does ultimately come down to storytelling. And so, like, it's a bummer. You guys come from a unique position as actors. So for. You guys have something invested in a way that. That I. I really don't have. Yeah. You know, and I'm just a leech who profits off of reality. So of course I'm gonna be like, it's the best thing ever. What's wrong with you guys? But, like. But, like, I think ultimately audiences just want good Storytelling, no matter what. And I think, you know, I. What. What sort of TV do. Are. Are you lamenting the loss of specifically, by the way, like, what do you.

[Ryder Strong]

Feel like the American family sitcom is the thing that I'm 100% the most, the most sad is gone.

[Ben Mandelker]

I think that the sitcoms. I have a whole, I have a whole other theory about sitcoms, like a one that is also maybe not super well researched. But I, and I was just thinking about it today, which is that I think the sitcoms of our youth in the 70s and 80s and going into the 90s, I feel like a lot of the writers on those sitcoms came from, like, tradition of the stage.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

And then as, as we came into the 90s and 2000s and beyond, the sitcom writers came from the tradition of just like seeing other sitcoms. And I think we, I think we're. You see like a difference in how this, the, the, these sitcoms are made and the jokes that they go for.

[Will Friedel]

Yep.

[Ben Mandelker]

Like, how is it that the Golden Girls, those jokes still land 40 years later. Yeah, like, still land. I watch the Golden Girls all the time to this day.

[Ryder Strong]

I watch MASH every day. Every day. So, yeah, yeah, there's that.

[Ben Mandelker]

And people. And lots of people do. And it's like, it feels like somewhere in the machine of Hollywood in terms of the, the talent, that exact talent that got into the executive side and the development side and what they're looking for. And on the writer side, it all kind of got away from what was working so well at one point.

[Will Friedel]

Yes.

[Ben Mandelker]

And so, you know, they just sort of started turning out garbage. And so, of course, audiences aren't going to be supporting these shows because, like, why, like, you have a show like the Real Housewives of New York in its prime that had such funny things. Scenes and such funny moments. Hilarious, hilarious moments. Salt. Real houses of Salt Lake City right now have clashes between people and comments and throwaway lines that are laugh out loud funny. And then you have just the canned laughter of a sitcom that's on, you know, NBC. It's like, why, like, it doesn't compete anymore.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, here's the question that I have though, that I would ask is when you're watching the Real Housewives, these hilarious moments, are you laughing with these people or at them? Because in sitcom you were laughing with the characters.

[Will Friedel]

Not always. I mean, you think mostly think about all in the Family, though. I mean, that was one of the main, like, sort of issues or like, is that a lot of people didn't think of Archie Bunker. As a character you were laughing at, they thought of him as a character you were laughing with, which divided the audience in a big way, you know?

[Ryder Strong]

Right. But that was the point. That's how he was written. That's exact. That was the point of how he was written. And so there's a diff. There was. To me, there's a difference of crafting a character that has that depth to where you're talking about, are we laughing with, laughing against? Is this a mirror of society or is it just these are women that you're throwing up there that you're laughing at? Because it's like, look how ridiculous that person is.

[Ben Mandelker]

All of the above you are laughing at, you're also laughing with. And I'll give you a great example. Something that, like, got a belly laugh out of me in the worst way. Like, it's going to hell for this. This happened last week. This happened two or two weeks ago. Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Let me try to set the scene. A lot of this is cringe comedy.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

This is coming from the Larry David world of comedy. Right? So we're on the Real houses of Beverly Hills. We're at a dinner party. We have Amanda Francis, who's a new cast member, and we have Dorit Kemsley, who's been there for a while. Dorita's like a dodo. We also have Kathy Hilton. You guys know who Kathy Hilton is? Famous, social, related to Paris Hilton, mother of Paris Hilton, extremely wealthy.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

Like just out there, person, dinner party with many people. But those three are there. And Dorit is mad at Amanda. But Amanda is also saying throughout the episode, she's saying that she's struggling. Like she does. She really does. Amanda, by the way, her whole thing is just. Just kind of like full of at all times. But she has something very serious going on in her life, which is that it's the like three year anniversary of the, like, the death of one of her twin children. Like, she gave birth to twins and one of them did not survive the birth of God. And so that's something that she's carrying with her. So Dorit tries to confront Amanda about something and Amanda is like, you know, it's really hard for me to talk about this, right. I'm barely holding on because it's the three year death of Zion. And Kathy Hilton perks up and goes, oh, is that your dog? And then just goes right to commercial. And you're like, oh, my God, it's so dark. But like, they're like. And out on that it was just like. I'm like, I don't. It's a terrible thing would happen to Amanda.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Ben Mandelker]

The fact that the comedy is the Kathy Hilton is barely paying attention to the stupid fight and wakes up and goes, oh, is that your dog?

[Will Friedel]

Oh.

[Ben Mandelker]

She goes, it's child. Oh, God. Oh, God.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, my God.

[Ben Mandelker]

It was so cringy, but it was like. You can't help but, like, go, right, Right.

[Will Friedel]

Amazing.

[Ryder Strong]

All right, one last thing. Just you. They come. Traders comes to you and says, we're giving you one of the slots on Traders to put whoever you want on the show. Who do you give that slot to?

[Ben Mandelker]

I am going to say, well, honestly, Nini Leaks would be a pretty amazing one from. From Atlanta. She would be. I think she'd be excellent. But I'm again, I'm casting because I'm interested to see how her personality fares in the castle.

[Ryder Strong]

Sure.

[Ben Mandelker]

Like how she. I, I. I guess I'm. I'm always interested to see how people react at the round table, like, when. When they accuse or when they are accused. That's the thing, right?

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

Because that. I guess I'm never. I'm never casting someone for, like, how crafty they'll be or how good, how strategic they'll be, because the game is stacked against everyone at all times.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ben Mandelker]

Stacked against the trader, stacked against the. The faithful. So I'm just like, I just want to see interesting personalities clash.

[Will Friedel]

Yep. Lots of fireworks. Awesome.

[Ben Mandelker]

All right.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah, we'll come back.

[Will Friedel]

You have to bring you back on. Maybe when the season's over, we'll do a roundup and discuss how it all. How the dust settled ultimately.

[Ben Mandelker]

Absolutely.

[Will Friedel]

But thank you so much, Ben. Great talking to you.

[Ben Mandelker]

Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it so much.

[Ryder Strong]

This has been great.

[Will Friedel]

Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

All right. Oh, man. Okay. Oh, just. Sorry. Before you go, if Ryder and I have to watch one of the housewives, where do we start? What season do we start with, and what series do we go to?

[Ben Mandelker]

Okay, well, I'm gonna say that right now you should go to Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. That's currently airing for many years. I would have said Real Housewives of New York, but it. It's. New York's in a weird place right now, so just go. Real Houses of Salt Lake City. They've done six seasons. Start with season one if you have to, if you must. If you must, start later, I guess season two. So much has happened on Real House with Salt Lake City. Someone got arrested for massive fraud scheme. There's a woman on There who's married to her grandfather.

[Ryder Strong]

Wait, what?

[Will Friedel]

Like her biological grandfather?

[Ben Mandelker]

She has a church and her grandmother was married to. It's. It's not her biological grandfather, but it's. I'm telling you, it's amazing. Great.

[Will Friedel]

All right.

[Ben Mandelker]

There's great. Think pieces about it by. By Naomi Fry in the New Yorker. If you want to. If you want to. Like, also, if it's still. The idea of watching these shows still feels kind of like an insult to your intelligence. I really recommend reading some of the coverage in the New Yorker because the New York Times is very snobby about this stuff. New York Times comes out with their best, you know, best TV shows of 20, 25, 2024, anything. And they're loathe to include these shows. Not a single Real Housewife gets on there when everyone's watching it. Like, everyone is watching it when we do our live show. So for watch happens, we. We tour and we go around and we get people of all sorts of fascinating backgrounds coming to our shows. Professors, right. We had a. Like, someone came up to us. She was a judge. It's, like, really fascinating and interesting people. Of course, you don't have to be a professor or judge to be interesting and fascinating, but the point is that, like, professions people with backgrounds who you don't normally associate with watching reality TV because of whatever snobbery or whatever idea you have in your mind of what reality TV is. And so people are watching these shows, and so New York Times won't write about it, but the New Yorker does. The New Yorker actually is, like, really good about saying, oh, wow, like, this is worth watching.

[Ryder Strong]

And.

[Ben Mandelker]

And here's some lessons I took from it.

[Will Friedel]

Cool.

[Ben Mandelker]

Naomi Fry. She's great.

[Will Friedel]

All right, well, check it out. Salt Lake City. And Naomi Fry's writing is really great.

[Ben Mandelker]

Help you find a way in mentally.

[Will Friedel]

Cool.

[Ryder Strong]

Thank you so much.

[Will Friedel]

Thanks, Ben.

[Ben Mandelker]

Thank you so much. And it's great chatting. Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

I feel like we could do 15 episodes with him.

[Will Friedel]

Well, yeah, we just did 90 minutes. We could have kept talking, too.

[Ryder Strong]

He's right, though, because I'm such a snob when it comes to that stuff.

[Will Friedel]

Because I feel like me, too.

[Ryder Strong]

Just killing us.

[Will Friedel]

I do. You know, for me, like. Like, exactly what I said to him. It's. It goes back to that sort of really terrible era, I think, you know, when. When it was, there was a clearer line of. It's just more cruelty. I felt like it was much more exploitative. Now I feel. Feel like if you're on a reality show, you know, why you're there, you know, what you signed up for. I feel like it didn't used to be that way. It used to feel a little mean, like these people were being hijacked. And I don't think anybody is participating in one of these Housewives shows without knowing exactly what.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, they think they're. I think it's like.

[Ben Mandelker]

Yeah, this.

[Ryder Strong]

I was going to say this is. It's a strange correlation, but I think it's. It's like the conventions. Back in the day, doing conventions, it was like, oh, my God, you're doing a comic book convention. That's ridiculous. Now actors are killing to get into these conventions left and right. And I think it's kind of the same thing. I always thought it was. Just to me, he's right where the sitcom went to kind of the lowest common denominator, which then to me, the logical next step was reality. And I don't think that's necessarily the case. That's how I see it. But I don't think that's necessarily right. And I think that's. He's right. I think there's a snobbishness to it. It that is like any other thing else with entertainment. You're trying to entertain the audience, and there's probably very good versions and very bad versions and everything in between.

[Will Friedel]

All right, well, that's it for this episode of Pod meets Twirled. Join us next time when we actually continue our journey through season four of Traitors, a show in which, as Shakespeare said in his Scottish play, fair is foul, and foul is fair.

[Ad Voice]

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[Ben Mandelker]

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[Ben Mandelker]

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