Pod Meets World Book Club Ep. 2 – A Deadly Education

Summary

Pod Meets World Book Club Ep. 2 – A Deadly Education
Released: May 23, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction

In this special Book Club edition of Pod Meets World, hosts Ryder Strong, Danielle Fishel, and Will Friedle delve into "A Deadly Education" by Naomi Novik. This episode explores the intricate world-building, complex characters, and profound themes presented in the novel, offering listeners a comprehensive analysis and engaging discussion.

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Synopsis

"A Deadly Education" is the first book in the Scholomance trilogy, reimagining the traditional magic school genre with a darker twist. Set in the Scholomance—a perilous institution where magical education is intertwined with survival—the story follows Galadriel "El" Higgins, a sarcastic and isolated sorcerer with immense dark magic potential. Unlike the typical chosen one, El grapples not only with the deadly threats of the Maleficaria (monsters that prey on students) but also with her struggle against the destiny imposed upon her by society.

Notable Quote:
Ryder Strong [04:00]: “Shine your wands, watch your back, and let's head into the Scholomance.”

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Roll Call: Initial Reactions

Danielle Fishel initially found the book challenging, particularly during the first 75-100 pages. She struggled with the protagonist's abrasive personality and the extensive world-building, which made her hesitant to continue. However, once El began forming genuine relationships, Danielle's interest was rekindled.

Will Friedle was immediately hooked by the novel's unique take on the magic school trope. As a seasoned fantasy reader, he appreciated the fresh perspective and complex protagonist, drawing parallels to characters like Draco Malfoy from the Harry Potter series.

Ryder Strong shared a mixed reaction, enjoying the initial uniqueness but eventually finding the narrative exhausting due to repetitive scenes and the singular perspective of El.

Notable Quote:
Danielle Fishel [15:00]: “The first 75 to 100 pages of this book was absolute torture for me.”

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Put It on the Board: Themes and Ideas

Privilege and Power Structures

The book adeptly examines themes of privilege and social hierarchy within the Scholomance. El's outsider status contrasts sharply with Orion Lake, the privileged, golden boy monster slayer. The hosts discuss how mana in the novel symbolizes money and power, reflecting real-world class disparities. The distinction between enclave and non-enclave students highlights systemic inequalities, where access to mana determines one's fate within the school.

Notable Quote:
Will Friedle [32:15]: “Mana represents both money and power. It's literally power.”

Social Systems and Rebellion

The Scholomance itself is portrayed as a sentient entity with its own desires, mirroring oppressive social systems. By the end of the first book, El and her peers begin to question and challenge the existing structure, hinting at revolutionary changes in subsequent installments.

Notable Quote:
Danielle Fishel [35:46]: “This book is kind of a revolution in that everybody's suffering from the system.”

Magic System: Balance and Limitation

The magic system in "A Deadly Education" emphasizes balance and limitations, with El needing to manage her mana carefully to avoid catastrophic consequences. This approach underscores the importance of constraints in world-building, guiding character development and plot progression.

Notable Quote:
Will Friedle [37:04]: “I realized in this, I was like, I don't need to know what artificers can do. I just need to know what they can't do.”

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Show Your Work: Writing Style and Characters

Narration and Point of View

The novel employs a first-person, stream-of-consciousness narration from El's perspective. While Will appreciated the deep dive into El's psyche, Danielle found the continuous internal monologue exhausting and at times disengaging.

Notable Quote:
Danielle Fishel [44:31]: “Every sentence is a paragraph, and there are vocabulary words that you're like, okay.”

Character Development

• Galadriel "El" Higgins: Portrayed as complex and unlikable initially, El's character evolves as she forms meaningful connections. Her struggle with isolation and the burden of her dark magic adds depth to her role.

• Orion Lake: Introduced as a quintessential hero, Orion's character appears somewhat bland in the first installment. However, hints of his complexity and potential for growth are evident, promising richer development in future books.

• Supporting Characters: Friends like Chloe, Adaiah, and Lou are well-developed, each bringing unique perspectives and influencing El's journey. Their interactions add layers to the narrative, highlighting themes of friendship and loyalty.

Notable Quote:
Will Friedle [48:15]: “In this first book, he leaves a lot to be desired... But in books two and three, he becomes more nuanced.”

World-Building and Monsters

The Scholomance is intricately designed, though some listeners found the multitude of monsters overwhelming. WhileEntities like the Maw Mouth were vividly described, others required more imagination from the reader.

Notable Quote:
Ryder Strong [49:05]: “I can visualize the monsters enough, but with so many, it becomes squiggly...”

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Pop Quiz: Boy Meets World Characters in Scholomance

The hosts entertained a fun segment imagining how Boy Meets World characters would fare in the Scholomance environment:

• Topanga: Valedictorian, possibly dabbling in both Mana and Malia.
• Eric: Likely to perish quickly, unable to adapt.
• Sean: Parallels to El, embodying the survivor from a disadvantaged background.
• Corey: Could inadvertently become a hero akin to Orion.
• Minkus: Would likely succumb due to overcomplicating situations.
• Nobody’s Angels: Strong alliances making them formidable competitors.

Notable Quote:
Will Friedle [51:57]: “Topanga would still be valedictorian of the school.”

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Report Card: Ratings and Takeaways

Turners (Fun and Readability)

• Danielle Fishel: 1-2/5
  Struggled with the dense narration and found it less enjoyable.

• Will Friedle: 4/5
  Enjoyed the unique perspective and compelling magic system.

• Ryder Strong: 4/5
  Appreciated the plot's propulsion but found some elements limiting.

Feenies (Life Lessons and Value)

• Danielle Fishel: 5/5
  Loved the social commentary and relatable high school analogies.

• Will Friedle: 4/5
  Valued the exploration of privilege and power dynamics.

• Ryder Strong: 2/5
  Found the life lessons present but felt the story adhered too closely to traditional tropes.

Final Takeaways:

• Adaptation Potential: Danielle and Will believe the book should be adapted into a series or film, with Will suggesting a blend of Harry Potter, Wednesday, and Saw for tone.

• Genre Commentary: The novel offers a critical perspective on the fantasy genre, subverting the chosen one trope by presenting an anti-heroine who challenges the imposed destinies.

Notable Quote:
Will Friedle [53:38]: “It’s Harry Potter meets Wednesday with a touch of Saw.”

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Conclusion

"A Deadly Education" presents a fresh and dark take on the magic school narrative, blending complex character studies with profound social themes. While it excels in world-building and thematic depth, its dense narration and extensive monster roster may pose challenges for some readers. The hosts agree that the book holds significant potential for adaptation, promising an engaging and thought-provoking experience for both fantasy enthusiasts and casual readers alike.

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Notable Quotes Overview:

• Ryder Strong [04:00]: “Shine your wands, watch your back, and let's head into the Scholomance.”
• Danielle Fishel [15:00]: “The first 75 to 100 pages of this book was absolute torture for me.”
• Will Friedle [32:15]: “Mana represents both money and power. It's literally power.”
• Danielle Fishel [35:46]: “This book is kind of a revolution in that everybody's suffering from the system.”
• Will Friedle [37:04]: “I realized in this, I was like, I don't need to know what artificers can do. I just need to know what they can't do.”
• Danielle Fishel [44:31]: “Every sentence is a paragraph, and there are vocabulary words that you're like, okay.”
• Will Friedle [48:15]: “In this first book, he leaves a lot to be desired... But in books two and three, he becomes more nuanced.”
• Ryder Strong [49:05]: “I can visualize the monsters enough, but with so many, it becomes squiggly...”
• Will Friedle [51:57]: “Topanga would still be valedictorian of the school.”
• Will Friedle [53:38]: “It’s Harry Potter meets Wednesday with a touch of Saw.”

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Connect with Us:
Follow us on Instagram at Pod Meets World Show or email us at [e-mail]. Don't forget to check out our merch!

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This summary is based on the transcript provided and is intended to offer a comprehensive overview of the podcast episode for those who haven't listened.

Transcript

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[Ryder Strong]

Welcome back to Pod Meets World, where we usually rewatch Boy Meets World and talk about what it was like growing up on set, growing up on screen, and growing up, period. But today, we continue our new little side quest with Pod Meets World Book Club Edition.

[Will Friedle]

Yay.

[Ryder Strong]

We're gonna. Every now and then, we pick a book, read it, and come together to talk about it. No scripts, no lessons from Feeny, just a conversation about what we're reading now, how it hits us and what it says about the stories we tell and the people we're becoming. And this time, the book comes from none other than fantasy superfan Wilfred L. Yes.

[Will Friedle]

Very excited. Very excited. Welcome to my world, people.

[Ryder Strong]

His pick, A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik. It's a dark twist on the magic school genre, set in a place called the Scholomance.

[Will Friedle]

Scholomance.

[Ryder Strong]

I would say Scholomance or Scholomance.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, yeah, Scholomance.

[Ryder Strong]

Scholomance. Basically a school for young sorcerers where the stakes aren't just grades, they're survival. Our protagonist, El, has a powerful magic and a chip on her shoulder. She's sarcastic, prickly, and maybe faded to become something truly dangerous, but she's also just trying to get out alive and graduate. The book is fast paced, biting, and full of monsters, both literal and emotional. And it sparks all kinds of questions about power, identity, and how we decide who we want to be. So sharpen your wands, watch your back, and let's head into the Scholomance. Welcome to Pod Meets World. I'm Ryder Strong.

[Danielle Fishel]

I'm Danielle Fishel.

[Will Friedle]

And I'm Will Friedle.

[Danielle Fishel]

So you picked a fantasy book that's only 313 pages.

[Will Friedle]

That I was basically.

[Danielle Fishel]

Was that a consideration?

[Will Friedle]

It was okay. It was also the consideration of what kind of fantasy book I wanted to pick, because I know writers read something fantasy. You have read no Fantasy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Zero Fantasy.

[Will Friedle]

And so I was like, do I want to start high fantasy? Because my original thought was going to be Pawn of Prophecy by David Eddings, which is the book that kind of got me into fantasy when I was 11 or 12. So it can be for younger people, but it's also just phenomenal.

[Ryder Strong]

Why don't you just take a moment to describe what high fantasy is.

[Will Friedle]

High fantasy is more of a fantasy. There's magical systems involved, but it's very character driven. You're going to get a lot of elves. You're going to get like, Lord of the Rings is high fantasy. Tolkien is high fantasy. So did I want to start with that? And then I remembered you really liking.

[Danielle Fishel]

Harry Potter, which I've never read.

[Will Friedle]

No, but you liked the movies.

[Danielle Fishel]

I've never seen them.

[Will Friedle]

Okay, so I remember somebody who looks like you really liking Harry Potter.

[Danielle Fishel]

That makes sense. That's about.

[Will Friedle]

That sounds about whatever girl I was talking to at the time really liked Harry Potter.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Will Friedle]

I thought there was.

[Danielle Fishel]

Danielle's a girl.

[Will Friedle]

Danielle's a girl. All girls are the same.

[Danielle Fishel]

All the same.

[Will Friedle]

So I figured school, getting in there, that kind of genre.

[Danielle Fishel]

I liked school.

[Will Friedle]

You liked school. You were a big fan of that. You were also kind of a girl in school who wanted to kill everyone around her.

[Danielle Fishel]

That is. That's. Yeah, I am. L is essentially what.

[Will Friedle]

So I thought there was a chance this was something. It's also was. It's. It's newer and Naomi Novik is a phenomenal writer. So I thought just this was. I knew I was taking a shot. I figured I was gonna get a call from Danielle at some point, either going, what the hell did you do to me? Or oh, my God, this is the best thing I've ever read. And I don't know where we've landed.

[Ryder Strong]

And you've read everything that Naomi Novik has written?

[Will Friedle]

Not everything, but mostly I've read she does the. I'm gonna pronounced. But I think it's called the Temary series, which is.

[Ryder Strong]

Pronunciation is going to be a big deal today. It is.

[Will Friedle]

Man.

[Danielle Fishel]

I. Me too.

[Ryder Strong]

I was literally looking up online, how do you pronounce Maleficaria exactly?

[Danielle Fishel]

Even just L's name? Galadriel. Gadriel.

[Will Friedle]

Galadriel.

[Danielle Fishel]

Gadriel.

[Will Friedle]

Galadriel. Not everything is let's go with L. Yeah, let's go with L. But no, you're right, Roeder. It's a lot about pronunciation. Have you.

[Ryder Strong]

Have you finished this series? Is this. Oh, yeah, I've read the series.

[Will Friedle]

I've read this series a couple times. It's only three books long. Okay, I've read the series a couple times. She also did the. I think it's called the Temerary series, which is all. It's. It's really cool. It's if during the Napoleonic wars there was also a Dragon Corps.

[Ryder Strong]

That's great.

[Will Friedle]

So it's still. I love that. But that one is like seven or eight books long. They're much thicker, so I didn't want to jump into that. But that's seriously what is. Imagine the French and the English are fighting, but they each have dragons as well. It was, it's very. And they're literally shipped on the big boats and they're, you know, so they're having, they're having ocean battles in these giant sloops, but then dragons are taking off from the deck. I mean, it's really, really co. Cool. But I, I loved, I loved that story. So when I saw this and then I read the first one, it was so different from, from anything I've been reading fantasy wise lately. Been doing a lot of Brandon Sanderson lately, which the magical systems are just off the charts weird. They're amazing, but they're weird. And then you know stuff like, you know, when you really get into fantasy, you get things like the Wheel of Time series where the prologue of the final book of the Wheel of time series was 250 pages long. Yeah, the prologue. So it's, it's one of those things.

[Ryder Strong]

I just fell asleep.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah, exactly. Right. But if you. That's book 10. So if you've been doing this for 25 years, which is what the series, how long it took to write, literally, the author died halfway through and Brandon Sanderson had to finish it. You were. I, I was with three other guys waiting in line for Barnes and Noble to open the morning it came out because you're just like, you're waiting for this thing to end.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow.

[Will Friedle]

So I wanted something that I, I knew I could kind of where I settled with you. I was taking such a shot with Danielle. So. We'll see.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay, so we're gonna break today into five segments like we did last time. We're gonna begin with Roll Call. This is where we check in with our initial reactions, overall thoughts, then put it on the board where we will lay out the big themes and ideas that we found in the book and then show your work. This is the nuts and bolts, the writing itself, the characters, dialogue, how it all came together on the page. And after that, we will lighten things up with a pop quiz, little game or fun question about the book. And finally, we will close out with Report Card where we each give our big takeaways. And out Turners and Feenies a rating system of 1 through 5. Where the turners are how fun and accessible this book was, how readable it was, and the Feenies are about the life lessons and the overall value, what you carry with you as you try and do good in your own life.

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[Ryder Strong]

All right, so let's open up our books and begin. I'll give a brief synopsis. Deadly Education is the first book in the Scholomance trilogy by Naomi Novik. Best selling author known for blending fantasy with literary depth. She reimagines the magic school trope with a much darker twist. This is a school for magically gifted teens, but instead of secret houses and friendly ghosts, it's a deadly institution with no teachers, no exits, and a constant threat of monsters called Maleficaria. Yeah, that prey on the students mouths, baby. Our protagonist, Galadriel L. Higgins, is no Harry Potter. She's not your typical underdog with a heart of gold. She's angry, sarcastic, and deeply isolated.

[Will Friedle]

And.

[Ryder Strong]

And she also happens to have incredibly powerful dark magic that could maybe wipe out entire cities if she let it loose. But she's not trying to become a villain. Her struggle isn't just against the Scholomance and its horrors. It's also about resisting the role the world seems to have assigned for her. As she fights to survive her junior year, she gets reluctantly entangled with Orion Lake, who is kind of the Harry Potter.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

The school's golden boy monster slayer. And they start to form a connection and she starts to form connections with other classmates that she's kept at an arm's length. All right, so let's. Let's get right into Danielle. Coming into this. Danielle, what was your fantasy experience before and how did this meet or upend your expectations?

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay, so I have heard Will talk about how he really likes fantasy world building. And he likes it to be as detailed as possible.

[Ryder Strong]

The magical systems with their own sort of like math going into it. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

And from that I would think to myself, I don't think I like that. I think that's a little too much for me. I like to follow stories of like, I like relationship stories. Stories about real character driven. Not so much about the world. Of course. The world is important and affects the characters, so you need some of it. I would say the first 75 to 100 pages of this book was absolute torture for me. Every night I started reading the book and I would try to read one chapter per night. Cause I don't wanna stop in the middle of a chapter. The chapters are fairly long sometimes. Sometimes they're reasonable, but they're pretty long for me. Who wants to be able to read for like 30 minutes before bed? Because that's what I. That's the amount of time I can hold on.

[Will Friedle]

That's 42 Dan Brown chapters, by the way.

[Ryder Strong]

So that's so funny because I almost thought that you were gonna say the first 75 really hooked you because they are very character driven compared to some fantasies.

[Danielle Fishel]

That was.

[Ryder Strong]

My immediate impression was, oh, this is because it's a narrator, it's first person and she's talking mostly about her feelings. And, you know, so I thought you were. There was a possibility that you were gonna say the world building was second, but it was already too much.

[Danielle Fishel]

It was just too much. It was too much also because she is so isolated and so dark and such a. She's a sarcastic, dry personality.

[Will Friedle]

Oh, she's horribly unlikable.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah, I.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I was like, oh my gosh, this girl. Oh my God, we get it.

[Ryder Strong]

So if the book had been narrated by Orion, it would have like just been easier in.

[Danielle Fishel]

For you maybe. I just. By the time I was like, oh my gosh, she just keeps saying the same thing over and over again, but about new places and the names, the stuff. It's like her name's hard to say. Maleficaria is hard to pronounce. And then there's Mana and Malia. And I'm like, never once do they ever even try to explain what Mana or Malia are to you. You just to figure it out in context as you go. And like, I was like, is Malia somehow connected to the Maleficaria? Is it like. Because it's like they. Dark magic, right?

[Will Friedle]

Dark energy, which you can then get.

[Danielle Fishel]

From the Maleficaria or. No, because he gets mana from killing Maleficia.

[Will Friedle]

Mana, you can also. So essentially what it is. And again, this is maybe it's just a helpful and. And known fantasy trope for people that read a lot of fantasy or us who play Magic the Gathering or something like that. So all mana is energy, apparently. You know, essentially. And what they've done in this world or what she's done in this world is she's actually balanced the mana, which is what we say.

[Ryder Strong]

I know we always say mana, but.

[Will Friedle]

I actually looked at. With Malia, so there's essentially light energy and dark energy that you can pull from and. And you can. The thing that. What I loved about this magical system was you could pull little bits from each one if you wanted to. And that's why she knew it's essentially she was a cocaine addict who could never do cocaine again.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Will Friedle]

So it's one of those things where she knew if she even tapped into the Malia, she was gonna set off a super volcano.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Will Friedle]

So it's like, I can't use that at all. So, yeah, it's just essential. Cause there were times we were reading this. Where did I get a text from Danielle? And it'd be a screenshot of the world of a word, and it would just be, what the is this?

[Danielle Fishel]

What is this?

[Will Friedle]

What is this?

[Ryder Strong]

I know. Yeah, it's. It's. It's. I mean, I think so much of fantasy is kind of a vocabulary test.

[Will Friedle]

It's a different language.

[Ryder Strong]

You're learning the new vocabulary, and you kind of just have to go with it. Yeah. So did you. After you said 75 to 100 pages. So did it grow on you? Did it change at that point?

[Danielle Fishel]

It did. It grew on me. Once she started making relationships with other people, not just Orion, but once she started having friendships that at the time, maybe she didn't really know whether or not they were friendships, but once she was. Was engaging with other people.

[Ryder Strong]

Interesting.

[Danielle Fishel]

And partnering up and having to rely on other people, then I was like, I'm interested to see where this goes.

[Ryder Strong]

So it wasn't it wasn't just the understanding, the magic. More for you. It was actually just getting out of her head a little bit.

[Danielle Fishel]

It's getting out of her head a little bit and into, like, other. Yeah. Just getting her out of being like, I'm always gonna be alone. Nobody likes me.

[Ryder Strong]

That is so funny to me that that's the part that you didn't like, because. Because that is, for me, the greatest strength of this book.

[Will Friedle]

I agreed 100%.

[Ryder Strong]

I mean, Will, when I got where this was going, where I was like, this is Draco Malfoy's internal monologue and the fact that she was, like, prophesied to be the ultimate villain, I was so excited by that.

[Will Friedle]

I loved it.

[Ryder Strong]

But I agree, it's kind of claustrophobic in her mind. And that's my biggest criticism of the book overall, because even though you're right, she does engage with people. We're still very locked in. In her head and in the school.

[Will Friedle]

But I was gonna say, isn't there something about the writing where you feel the claustrophobia of the students that are stuck in the school? Like, you can't get out of these tiny rooms they're in, and around every corner, you might die, and every little thing you might pick up. Oh, I have to get a hammer. Well, the hammer could kill you. It's like that stuff I loved so.

[Danielle Fishel]

Much about this book, and it was hard. We talked about it before we started this podcast, that there is a map of the school. Ryder and I have the paperback, and the map is at the very back of the book. And I never went there to tell the end of the story. And then I was like, see, I would have liked to have started with this so I could have had something in my mind. Because the way the school is described, it is, without a visual, nearly impossible to understand. It's very different. Yep. What they're trying to describe, the way the rooms rotate, and it's a giant.

[Ryder Strong]

Screw, and they keep going down levels as they get.

[Danielle Fishel]

As they get older. Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

And so the senior year is you're basically all thrust into a room to kill each other to the end for that's graduation.

[Danielle Fishel]

They're trying to escape the Maleficarium.

[Ryder Strong]

Escape all of them escape the school.

[Will Friedle]

Maleficarium.

[Ryder Strong]

They can turn on each other because they can get magic from each other. They get Mana or Malia by killing one another.

[Will Friedle]

Whereas, to go to what Danielle was saying, whereas I have the hardcover, and when you open it up, the first is not even on a page. It's Actually, part of the book is the entire map of the school.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. My best advice for somebody who's going to pick this up after we talk about it is if you have the paperback immediately before you even begin, take a look at the drawings. They're really well done. It adds a lot if you have that before you jump into it. I did find. I think my number one thing that I thought was the most interesting was the description of graduation day. Hearing about how graduation day works and that. And also understanding that the Maleficaria that are trying to get you on graduation day, it's basically like the gates open and all these monsters have access to eating you. And you, through the time that you're in school, have to develop spells and things that could possibly ward them off or kill the Maleficaria before they kill you. But you can also trade. Make alliances with people to help you get through it. That was all there. And then also that the Maleficari have to eat throughout the years so they.

[Will Friedle]

Can sneak in and grab you when you're there. And, yeah, it was just. But it's also. Isn't it kind of a perfect example of high school?

[Danielle Fishel]

It's a perfect analogy of high school. Everything's really. You feel like everything's out to get you.

[Will Friedle]

Everything's gonna kill you. You're gonna be friends with these people. These are the rich, popular kids. These aren't. There's something so high school, but then about taking it but to death, that was just. I mean, I loved it. I absolutely loved it.

[Ryder Strong]

All right, so for both of you, what changed for you from beginning to end? Starting with you, Daniel, by the end of the world.

[Danielle Fishel]

I hated it.

[Ryder Strong]

You hated it when it started. You still hate it when it.

[Danielle Fishel]

No, it actually ended. And Jensen was next to me in bed and it ended. And I literally went, oh, no. And he went, what? And I said, now I have to read book two and three. Because literally through the entire book, even though I, at about page 75 or 100, turned and actually got into it and was then excited to read it every night. Whereas before it had been like, why did I.

[Will Friedle]

Do this anymore?

[Danielle Fishel]

Every night, getting into bed. And then it turned and I was like, ooh, I'm really excited. And those chapters didn't feel long anymore. They felt like they were going very fast. And I would. A chapter would end and I'd think, darn it, I wish I didn't have to go to sleep because I'd want to keep reading.

[Will Friedle]

So.

[Danielle Fishel]

But I had still been thinking at least I only have to read this one. At least. It's just one book. It's 313 pages, and once I get done with this, I'll never have to look at it again. Oh, no.

[Will Friedle]

Oh, no.

[Danielle Fishel]

I've already started book two.

[Will Friedle]

Have you?

[Danielle Fishel]

I have. My birthday had just passed. My brother asked for a birthday idea, and I sent the two links for book two and three to my brother, and I said, here you go. This is what I want. And I'm already, you know, 50 pages into book two.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay, so will you obviously read everything I did.

[Will Friedle]

I've read the.

[Ryder Strong]

So when you first read it, were you just hooked immediately? Cause you already set the tone, and then the character just threw you in, and then it totally delivered for you.

[Danielle Fishel]

It did.

[Will Friedle]

Well, I'm a huge Harry Potter fan, so the idea of taking that trope, dark hair, and going, let's just. What happens if it's the same thing, but we're all killing each other and everything just wants you dead, including the school. To me, I was hooked right away. I also loved how much I hated her at the beginning. I was like, you're a terrible person. And then when you really start getting into it, it's like, you're not. You just. You come to realize that she literally could not fathom someone liking her. And that's the thing that colored her entire existence is her whole life. She'd been told she's with a mom who's, again, brilliant.

[Danielle Fishel]

An absolute saint.

[Will Friedle]

Saint of a mother who is, like.

[Danielle Fishel]

Salt of the earth, one of the Everyone loves.

[Ryder Strong]

So let's describe. So she grew up on a commune. Her mom, wizards grow up, or sorcerers grow up in enclaves, for the most part, which are groups of adults who raise their kids together, train them to be sorcerers. But she was raised by this very legendary healer, hippie type, who has taken her out of all enclaves and raised her alone, in part because she was prophesied to be this dark destroyer of world.

[Will Friedle]

Destroyer of enclaves, Destroyer of world. She's gonna.

[Ryder Strong]

So her mom is both a protector and kind of an enabler and. Yeah. And so she grew up in a very different environment than everybody else. Yeah, I thought that was a really cool. Me too. I wanted to see more of that personally, because you may in future books.

[Will Friedle]

You may in the future, but it is. It just. She was a very. I mean, again, like a Harry Potter. Who's the good version of this? She was a very, very complex character. And it all came down to the fact that she just couldn't fathom that anyone would like her. Ever.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. And she's. Because she's never had a friend.

[Will Friedle]

No. Never had a friend. To the point where she. When she realized she had a friend, she cried.

[Danielle Fishel]

She's like, oh, my God, I have a friend.

[Will Friedle]

So I mean that to me, I thought it was such an interesting way to go about. Yeah, no, it did. It hooked me right away. This was one of. You know, I read fantasy all the time. It's basically all that I read. And so when I then stumble on one that's so different than anything else I've read and also combines just beautiful prose. Cause she can obviously blow doors. I mean, she can write really, really well. So when I find that combination, then I just kind of try to deep dive the author because it's like, oh, my God. That's how I was with Robin Hobb, who was just like, wow. And this was the one that did. To me. I. I found it on it. I walked into. It might have been in Sebastopol. No, it was before Sebastopol. But I just walked into a bookstore and it was just on display. And I was like, okay. And I grabbed it. And then by the third chapter, I was like, oh, my God, I can't wait. And I already ordered the next one and the third one hadn't come out yet. So I had. Then you do the fantasy thing where you're sitting there and you're waiting for the next book to come out. And finally it came like the day it was delivered, the day came out, I was at the bookstore. I went and got it. And I was. Yeah, I was that guy with this series.

[Danielle Fishel]

What about you, writer?

[Ryder Strong]

I loved the first 7,500 pages. I love the approach. It didn't. I mean, ultimately, like, it lands with more plot hooks. Right. To keep you going.

[Will Friedle]

Of course.

[Ryder Strong]

And when I got there, I was like, okay. But no, I found it a little exhausting. I found it sort of maintaining at a certain point. There's a lot of the same scene over.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah, that's true.

[Ryder Strong]

And the dynamic. As complicated as her interior monologue is, and as complicated as she is about analyzing her relationships with everybody and herself, and she actually doesn't have much desire or wants on her own. And I really wanted to know, how does she like Orion? Does she. You know, I don't think she knows well, but I. But, you know, by the end, we.

[Danielle Fishel]

Don'T really know Orion.

[Ryder Strong]

Spoiler. I guess we're just gonna have spoilers. I mean, the fact that he kisses her at the end, and that becomes a sort of. You know, I was. I wanted to. How do you feel? Do you want this?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

Do you like somebody? Are these people really your friends? I just wanted a little more introspection on that. I felt like the author, and maybe it develops throughout, you know, But I felt like the author got trapped by the brilliance of her first idea, which was. And the brilliance of that voice, and then sort of was treading water for a long time. And, yeah, we can get into the end of the book, but, yeah, so I was a little exhausted. You know, I was kind of like, I don't think I would have finished this book if it wasn't really interesting. Because I kind of. I was like, how do you pick.

[Will Friedle]

Up a book, even a crappy one, and not finish it? I don't understand that.

[Ryder Strong]

All right, well, let's get. Let's go move into. Put it on the board where we talk about the big themes or ideas. So how does the dynamic between El and Orion complicate traditional hero, villain, or damsel and savior tropes?

[Danielle Fishel]

How does it complicate him? I mean, she is not. She is not appreciative.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

At all to be saved.

[Ryder Strong]

It opens with her having already been saved by him. Correct.

[Will Friedle]

And wanting to kill him. Because it's a great opening line. It was a wonderful opening line to a book where he's shit. By the second time he saved me, I knew I had to kill him.

[Danielle Fishel]

I knew I had to kill him. Exactly. And the thing I'll say about him, he's a pretty boring character in this first book.

[Will Friedle]

There you go.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. Because I don't know anything about him either. And I do know, because I'm 50 pages into the second book. They start immediately with delving into. And does she like him? And who is he really? And so I know we're gonna get more of it, but in this first book, other than the idea that in some ways we kind of are supposed to feel sorry for him toward the end, he doesn't get to use. Really. I mean, he can use his own mana, but he doesn't have access to it the same way the other enclave kids do. And yet he's contributing more mana to this shared pool than. Than any other character.

[Ryder Strong]

And they're all taking advantage of it.

[Danielle Fishel]

And the entire school has come to resent him for saving so many lives because the Maleficaria are not able to eat any students because he's stopped so many killings. And so he is resented for being a hero.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Danielle Fishel]

And he is kind of personalityless.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah. He's sort of like the popular kid, right? I mean, he's like the quarterback.

[Danielle Fishel]

He's a popular kid with hunched over shoulders who kind of just like.

[Will Friedle]

He's a popular kid. He doesn't want to be popular.

[Danielle Fishel]

Correct.

[Will Friedle]

He doesn't want. He. Everyone else has made him popular. He doesn't want to be popular. Which is why we think at the beginning he likes Elle because Elle's like, I don't like you. I'm not going to kiss your. Yeah, I want nothing to do with you. And he's like, oh, you real person. Let me be near you. Which I love. And I will say, as you get into books two and three and find out more about Orion, not a basic character.

[Danielle Fishel]

Really. Yeah.

[Will Friedle]

And not a basic character.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. Well, in this first book, Right. He leaves a lot to be desired.

[Will Friedle]

That's the thing about fantasy is it's almost. You almost have to look at. When you know it's multiple fantasy, when you know it's gonna be a series, you almost have to look at each book as its own chapter.

[Danielle Fishel]

That makes sense. And each book focusing more on one character. Kind of like the seasons of Boy Meets World, focused on individual characters more as you build out the world. So that makes sense.

[Will Friedle]

And you also don't know who you're gonna like and who you're not until the book goes on more. I mean, by the end of Harry Potter, you still like Harry, but it's like you might be more of a Ron fan at this point or you might be like, Neville was my favorite character. You just never know as they're kind of.

[Ryder Strong]

I don't think Neville was anybody's favorite character.

[Will Friedle]

Not true, sir.

[Ryder Strong]

All right, well, here's. Here's a big question. What do you, what do you think that this book is saying about privilege?

[Danielle Fishel]

I do love that topic in this book.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, I don't wanna hog this whole thing, but like, obviously for both El and Orion, they have their totally different experiences with privilege. Orion is in the most privileged enclave that exists, New York. And El is not part of an enclave, has no desire. She thought maybe early on in her life that her only goal was, I'm gonna go to the skull of Manson, I'm gonna join an enclave. And her mom didn't want her to, but she. That was what she thought she wanted. And then she. Once she got there. Absolutely not. I see how unfair it is. I see how there's no reason this group of people, because of their access to mana which in this book kind of represents money.

[Ryder Strong]

Right.

[Will Friedle]

Or power.

[Danielle Fishel]

And power.

[Will Friedle]

Literal power.

[Ryder Strong]

It's sort of class in one word. Right. Whatever privilege you have or whatever mana you have access to is some form of power.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right.

[Ryder Strong]

It's class.

[Will Friedle]

And they even talk about the kids that they call it on the maintenance track, where it's like they'll fix everything in the school, which is way more dangerous than if you could die. But they know they'll get a place in an enclave. But even when they get into the enclave, they're gonna be there essentially as janitors.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, Exactly.

[Will Friedle]

This is what you're gonna. Yes, you'll be protected and you'll have access to the power. But you're still just fixing all this for the rich people, right?

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Will Friedle]

So it's really it. And again, just going back to something you said a while before, and I know this is a meta kind of take on it, but. But where you said it kind of got almost monotonous. It's repeating itself. It's the same scene over and over again. To me, that's. Again, that's high school. It's like every. It is the same. It just happens to be that there's monsters in this one. But high school's like that. Everything's the most important thing in your life. Every day is kind of exactly the same. There's power and clicks all over the place. It just kind of seemed like that going through all.

[Ryder Strong]

So then what does this book say about systems in general or, like, social systems or social structures? Does it land somewhere for you?

[Will Friedle]

I think it depends on which character eyes you're looking through. If you're looking at El's eye. Looking through El's eyes. I think what she's. I mean, the thing that's amazing is she has the most power. At least they're setting it up to where she's the most powerful magical character in the book.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Will Friedle]

And essentially refuses to use it.

[Danielle Fishel]

Right, Right.

[Will Friedle]

And then you've got the second most powerful character who's only using it for good and still tamped down by the powerful people because he wouldn't be able to stop using his power. Power. It's a weird combination of what the power actually signifies, because it signifies both good and evil. And like anything else, it's how you use it. So a hammer is neither good or evil. If you use it to build a house, it's good. If you use it to kill somebody, it's bad. So that's. I think, what they're kind of coming at in this Book, it's all how you use it. But I can tell you it gets way more into the enclaves, way more into the power structure, especially in the third book. And all of this is really well addressed, especially in the third book, this entire idea of power and safety. Cause there's safety and power. And all the things that especially Chloe, who's part of the New York enclave, who does come and apologize to her, who says, like, I didn't understand most of the stuff going on because she's raised isolated. There is an isolation to power and money. Where you are in a bubble of. This is a.

[Danielle Fishel]

What's a banana cost? $10.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, that's. Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at is that this book is kind of revolution in that everybody's suffering from the system. So even the rich kids or the privileged kids like Orion, are miserable. And I thought that was pretty powerful. And the way that this book at least ends, they're banding together to overthrow the entire system. Even an outsider like Elle begins this book just wanting to be in it in some way or maybe just destroy it from within. And then by the end, they're all kind of saying that, right? They're all saying this doesn't work. We need to change the whole thing. And that's really revolutionary. Harry Potter gets there in like book five, maybe or six, where they're kind of against the school. But this book's right there. I thought it was really a really kind of powerful, revolutionary social message.

[Will Friedle]

And the second book is really about the power of working together. Not to sound trite, but that's really what you get, is there's a power in numbers. There's a safety in numbers. I mean, I love how she literally got into the percentage of the enclave kids. Usually 80% of them made it out, whereas like 30% of the non enclave kids made it out. And it's just. That's kind of what money and power does in our society.

[Danielle Fishel]

So at first it bothered me that the school kind of becomes its own character in the sense of like, the school has desires. The school is trying to get Elle to do a certain thing. And at first I was like, I don't want the school to have its own wants and desires. But when I thought about it in relation to power and the way it works with enclaves, it's like, well, we have government that sways.

[Will Friedle]

Oh, wait till the end of parts of the second book. Cause it is, you come to find out in this book. But it really gets into it in the Second book, the school is sentient, right? Yeah. So it starts to try to A, help or B, defend itself at certain times. And they really get into that.

[Danielle Fishel]

It has to sustain.

[Will Friedle]

It has to. And it's all about. That's the other thing. It's one of my favorite. You know how you love time travel and you love. One of my favorite tropes in all of fantasy is balance. I just. Because I think most of the life.

[Ryder Strong]

Let me ask about this because this to me was so interesting. Like the magic system, right. And how it introduces limitation and balance. How did that compare in this book to like the way it's. Because you know all these magic systems, right? Like, how would you compare this magic system and it's specifically its use of balance and limitation. How does that compare to other fantasy books you've read?

[Will Friedle]

You know, it depends. All great fantasy has balance in it. I mean, even down to comic books. You know, Superman can't be all powerful. He also, there has to be kryptonite. There has to be magic. There has to be things that can hurt him or it's a useless character. So great magical systems in fantasy novels are, hey, I can put out all this power, but then I'm useless for three months. You need that kind of balance. So, you know, it depends. Again, I keep going back to Brandon Sanderson. Brandon Sanderson's great with balance. Brandon Sanderson is great with. I can do this. But then this happens.

[Ryder Strong]

It struck me as so important reading this book.

[Will Friedle]

Huge game.

[Ryder Strong]

Because I loved how she was able to make it not just like an energy drain. It was also kind of a money drain thing. The kids had mana that was given by their parents. She had to exercise.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah.

[Ryder Strong]

She looked for push ups and sit ups to create her own. Which I was like, oh, it's also physical. It's like with hard work we can pull ourselves up by the bootstraps. But that's also not true. Like, I just thought that this specific magic system was really clever in that way. And it made me think, like, oh, right. Like, because I, you know, I teach world building and. And in screenwriting. And like, I feel like now I'm really going to just focus on what is not possible. Like, focus on the limitations of your world building because that's way more important. I realized in this, I was like, I don't need to know what artificers can do. Like, I don't need to know the most powerful magic. I just need to know what they can't do. Yeah, that's like. So that guides Character and story. So much more.

[Will Friedle]

And it's also, it's one of those little things. It sounds, sounds like a ridiculous comparison, but within this magical system, the idea of you build up your mana, you build up your mana, you build up your mana and then something attacks.

[Ryder Strong]

Right?

[Will Friedle]

It's the equivalent of you're saving money. You're saving money. I'm finally getting it and then my.

[Danielle Fishel]

Car breaks down it.

[Will Friedle]

Now half of my money's gone. And it's the same with this where it's like I'm building up.

[Danielle Fishel]

And you only have a certain amount of time because you have graduation on the horizon. Yeah, you might die. You're gonna need it all for then. So you have like only a certain number of days left to earn more money.

[Will Friedle]

You might find out in the future books that the school is sending some of these things at you to exhaust your mind.

[Danielle Fishel]

I mean, I know I'm 50 pages into book.

[Will Friedle]

That's what I'm saying there. You know, it's like the school wants something because it's also about balance. You're. You're saving all these kids. That's great. But that's now making all the malakaria really angry. And so now actually more of the seniors are going to die and that's not fair. So yeah, it's this whole. It's. It works on a bunch of different levels.

[Ryder Strong]

It really does.

[Will Friedle]

Does.

[Danielle Fishel]

We all have that piece. You know the one, the thing that's so you. You've basically become known for it.

[Will Friedle]

And if you don't have yours yet, you'll find it on ebay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Putting you on here fashionistas.

[Ryder Strong]

Ebay is where you'll find those. One of a kind. Can't stop researching. Stay up. Dreaming about pieces again and again.

[Danielle Fishel]

I'm talking that mew mew off the Runway red leather bobble summer.

[Will Friedle]

The Cousteau Barcelona top with the cowboy on it.

[Ryder Strong]

Or that Patagonia fleece in the 2017 colorway.

[Will Friedle]

All these finds are on ebay and.

[Danielle Fishel]

They even offer millions of main character pieces backed by authenticity guarantee.

[Ryder Strong]

Ebay is the place for pre loved and vintage fashion.

[Will Friedle]

EBay, things people love.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Will Friedle]

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[Ryder Strong]

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[Danielle Fishel]

So you might stumble a bit while saying it, but paying with it will make you stumble upon so much more. Shopping, dining, cooking, gardening. You get the idea.

[Will Friedle]

Let's say it together.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Ryder Strong]

Fargo earns unlimited 2% cash rewards on purchases.

[Danielle Fishel]

You know what? It does have a ring to it. No, seriously, try saying it out loud. The Active Cash Credit Card from Wells Fargo.

[Will Friedle]

Ooh, that sounds nice.

[Ryder Strong]

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[Will Friedle]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Ryder Strong]

All right, let's move into show your work where we talk about the writing itself, the style and the characters and the structure. So compared to more traditional fantasy novels, how does her first person stream of thought narration shift the genre's feel or the stakes will?

[Danielle Fishel]

You're the expert here.

[Will Friedle]

I'm. I'm this. Here's how I put it. I am sparingly a big fan of first person storytelling. I don't want every story to be told like this, but occasionally it is. It's very refreshing to get it in this kind of voice. And I think in this situation specifically, it worked perfectly because I also didn't especially beginning I didn't like the person who was telling me the story, which to me liking the story, if it's instantly like, God, I love this guy, tell me more, that's fine. But if it's like, oh God, I don't like you at all, why are you complaining again? I'm still flipping through the pages going like, ooh, what comes next? So. And I love her prose. I think she's a phenomenal writer. I really do. And you really see it more in the. I think it's Temerian. I don't know how to say it. Temerary book series. She can just write.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. She's a really wonderful writer. I will say, like I said, I was reading it before bed, which means I've already taken a melatonin. I've also taken a unisom, and some of the sentences are paragraphs and in there are vocabulary words that you're like, okay. And I still don't really even know what this is. So there were times that I would find myself halfway down a page and I'd go, well, I stopped paying attention to what I was reading. My brain started thinking about something totally different. Now I have to go back and reread it and try to focus. So it's not a book that you unlike Blob. That was so beach Read by the pool.

[Ryder Strong]

Yep.

[Danielle Fishel]

Breezy. Yeah. Someone could walk up, have a conversation with you. You could get distracted and go right back and know exactly what was happening. I felt like I had to. I had to pay attention because I was also worried. This word that maybe I don't understand now, it's not gonna be the last time I see it. This is also gonna come back again. I need to pay attention to who these people are and what their relationships to their enclaves. Who are they? Are they out there? Casts. What is her relationship with them? I felt like everything was important, which is great.

[Ryder Strong]

It's intense, right?

[Danielle Fishel]

She has a tense voice, but it's exhausting.

[Ryder Strong]

It's exhausting.

[Will Friedle]

Here's the thing, though. It's exactly what you said. It's a language fantasy. And every book has its own dialect. Once you become fluent, you start to be able to read it the way you would a beach.

[Danielle Fishel]

A beach. I already noticed with book two, I can read it the same.

[Will Friedle]

All of a sudden, the words there and you get what's going on. You get the balance. And now you're like, oh, okay, I'm in.

[Ryder Strong]

What about the secondary characters? Because we've talked about how well developed she is, and we're obviously in her head, but do you think way better.

[Will Friedle]

Developed in books two and three? Again, this is the.

[Ryder Strong]

Let's stick with book one.

[Will Friedle]

I know, I know. But in book one, it's not about them. It's about her. I think we're finding them as she's finding them, and she hasn't found them for a while.

[Danielle Fishel]

I feel like Chloe Adaiah and Lou. And Lou are all really well developed.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah. I love her two best friends. I feel like I understand them. I think they're. They're quirky. I mean, Lou being the one who was a maleficer.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah. She's using.

[Danielle Fishel]

She was using Malia and then has turned. And you also get the sense that her family's not gonna like that.

[Will Friedle]

Yes, well, Elle turned her by accident.

[Danielle Fishel]

Exactly.

[Will Friedle]

She didn't even know she turned her. Which I thought was another cool twist.

[Danielle Fishel]

I thought that was cool, too.

[Will Friedle]

It's like she. I. I inadvertently got you off of drugs. I didn't even know that's what I was. Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

So I. I actually, I love them. And I love what their. Their little alliance. They each give moments, too.

[Ryder Strong]

Like in their confrontations with her, like when they kind of tell her off, you get to hear, like, they have very nuanced perspectives. And they do change El's point of view sometimes. So I thought that was really cool.

[Danielle Fishel]

The same way Elle challenges Orion with the oh, I am not going to kiss your butt. They do to her. Especially at the end of the book, spoiler alert. When, you know, El doesn't want anyone to know who her mother is. She hasn't told anyone. Orion knows. Right?

[Will Friedle]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Orion figures it out.

[Will Friedle]

Out. Yeah. Well, no, he. He's, I think says like, wait, Gwen Higgins.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. He finds out from her. From her last name. Somehow he knows. But then at the end of the book when it's announced, kind of. And she has to like, raise her hand. Yes, that's my mom. And her two friends are like, excuse me, when were you planning on sharing. On sharing that with us? I. I loved that. I like that she is in the same situation. Kind of a power position. The way Orion is with her. She is with her friends.

[Ryder Strong]

Right. Okay, I'm just going to read off some monster names that I wrote down.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

Soul Eaters, Mimics, Chyennas, Siren spiders, Night Flyers, Maw mouths, Shrikes. What did we think of the crazy amount of monsters? The names. Could you visualize them? Do you know what they all are? Can you describe them? Will, you've already read a bunch, so you probably can.

[Will Friedle]

Yes, yes, yes, and yes, baby, you can.

[Ryder Strong]

So you could. Right. Now tell me what a night flyer is versus a shrike.

[Will Friedle]

Well, I would think from the way she described it, I would think a night flyer is essentially like, imagine a giant, messed up, crazy flying squirrel that takes up. Its wingspan is 100ft wide. Okay.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Will Friedle]

Wow. And just rabid.

[Ryder Strong]

So you really are keeping track of them.

[Will Friedle]

I mean, I know them enough in my head to where I can picture them. Wow. But again, that my. That's kind of what I like about also some. Not getting into too much detail about some of the things because then I get to create what I want in my head. Give me the. Give me the. The basics and then I'll fill it in from there.

[Danielle Fishel]

I only could picture a maw mouth and it was just a giant version of Slimer from Ghostbusters.

[Will Friedle]

Oh, gotcha.

[Danielle Fishel]

It was just a giant filled though with stuff like. Giant slimer, filled with stuff like jello and just with tentacle tentacles.

[Ryder Strong]

For me, the maw mouth was pretty much the only monster I. I could wrap my head around, could envision. And that was given the space I felt that the monsters deserve.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

But everything else in this book, I just reached a point where I was like, bad thing, bad thing, Crawly, creepy, bad thing. And I knew they were gross.

[Danielle Fishel]

Came from a ceiling.

[Will Friedle]

And it's like, we got the chyena.

[Ryder Strong]

No, Man.

[Will Friedle]

It was a cheetah and a hyena that are crossed and super aggressive.

[Ryder Strong]

The sheer overwhelming amount of different monsters that kind of come and go. It's like, oh, then this flew in. And Orion took care of it. I just.

[Will Friedle]

Too much.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah. I just checked out. My brain checked out. It was like, I don't want to do the work. I know what this.

[Will Friedle]

Maybe you had a mind of.

[Ryder Strong]

This encounter is for them to win or not. You know, the point of this encounter is to. So I just kind of was rushing through them to get to the point. You know what I mean? Like, it was getting hard. I will say the description of the magic itself. When they're building a mirror or bending something. That was very detailed and, like, kind of fun to visualize. Sexualized. But the monsters all just became squiggly. Like, fill in this blank in my mind. Because there's too many of them. I think it was like. There's so much variety. It was. It was a little overwhelming. All right.

[Will Friedle]

Pop quiz. Okay.

[Ryder Strong]

After reading about how stressful life is at Scholemont Scholomance. God, I'm never gonna say it. Right. How would characters from the Boy Meets World universe fare if they had to enroll? Would they survive? What would their skills be? Maybe. What kind of sorcerer would they be? Be? Let's do Corey, Sean, Eric, Topanga, Minkus, and Nobody's Angels.

[Will Friedle]

Well, at least you hit all the most important characters. Does it have to be in any order?

[Ryder Strong]

No. Just pick one that you want to talk about.

[Will Friedle]

Topanga would still be valedictorian of the school, right? I think she would. And I think she would be. I'm going to say. I don't think she'd be strictly Mana.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh.

[Will Friedle]

I think there's a chance she might be able to dabble in the Malia a little bit.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay.

[Will Friedle]

Eric would be dead by the time he stepped into the. He'd be dead freshman year. Hey, what are you guys doing Dead. Sean is Galadriel.

[Ryder Strong]

He is.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

I thought the same guy is absent.

[Ryder Strong]

He's raised with, like, no father or an absentee parent. Yeah. And he is a poor kid from the wrong side of the tracks.

[Danielle Fishel]

And Corey would accidentally be Orion. He would act totally not intending to. But somehow he'd be like, I just killed that thing. And he'd be bailing Sean out of all.

[Ryder Strong]

Yep. Right.

[Will Friedle]

That's absolutely correct.

[Ryder Strong]

Right. That would be a great dynamic. Their friendship.

[Will Friedle]

Are they just friends? Are they in love? Orion and Galadriel. So.

[Ryder Strong]

And I think. What about Minkus?

[Will Friedle]

I Think Minkus would probably be dead pretty quick soon. I think he'd also die pretty quick.

[Danielle Fishel]

I think he'd have great ideas. And he'd get too wrapped up in his great ideas. To not be paying attention to the things around him. And no one would. He wouldn't be in an element alliance with people who'd be looking out for him.

[Will Friedle]

I actually think he'd be one of the kids. That somebody else would go take his room and push him into the void.

[Danielle Fishel]

You might be right.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah. He'd be that guy.

[Danielle Fishel]

That's also very cool, the rooms having a wall that's like whether it's on your ceiling or which wall, depending on where you are. Yeah.

[Will Friedle]

Just.

[Danielle Fishel]

You have to avoid that area. Because it's just into the void. Very crazy.

[Will Friedle]

Oh, and nobody's angel. I mean, come on. They play graduation. Everybody knows that.

[Danielle Fishel]

They'd be playing for the Maleficari.

[Ryder Strong]

Well, they actually already have their own alliance. So they would be pretty strong. They're a force to be reckoned with.

[Will Friedle]

Okay.

[Ryder Strong]

All right, report card. Overall thoughts, takeaways. Let's start this way. Could this be adapted into a series or a film?

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, it absolutely should be adapted.

[Will Friedle]

It hasn't been.

[Ryder Strong]

And what tone would fit it best? Is it a. An R rated horror? Is it a satire? Is it a Wednesday style?

[Will Friedle]

I would say I think it's Harry Potter meets Wednesday with a touch of Saw.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah.

[Danielle Fishel]

Oh, yeah.

[Will Friedle]

That's what I would say a little bit.

[Ryder Strong]

That was a perfect description. Great answer.

[Danielle Fishel]

Well, we'll just take that run with it.

[Will Friedle]

Thank you.

[Ryder Strong]

All right. So how does this end up commenting? Does it fulfill or critique the fantasy genre? I'm thinking, particularly like the notion of a hero's journey or the idea of the chosen one. Where does this book ultimately land? Just on the first one.

[Will Friedle]

Just in the first one. If you're just judging it on the first one. I'm not sure it does land fully. It's, you know. No, it's not a fully wrapped up in a bow story. You could read the first Harry Potter and put it down after book one if you want. And never read another one and be like, I read a fun Harry Potter story. You wouldn't get the full story, but you could do that. This one. To get what the entire series means. You really need to read the entire series. It really makes a difference. So book one, I think it's fantasy adjacent in book one is what I would say.

[Ryder Strong]

See, for me, it was interesting how much it actually became a pretty standard fantasy novel. You Think for a group of kits, she's kind of the chosen one. She leads the school to a new place. She becomes the hero. She fights it all. You know, she's kind of Percy Jackson. It just starts with such a different perspective. You know, she starts as, like, the anti chosen one, but by the end of this book, I was like, well, you got the. You got the guy.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Will Friedle]

And it only goes from there. That's true.

[Danielle Fishel]

You got friends.

[Ryder Strong]

So I was kind of like, this is secretly just another fantasy chosen slow.

[Danielle Fishel]

Burn into what you know. Yeah, I can see that, too.

[Will Friedle]

I could see that, too.

[Ryder Strong]

All right, Any final, like, takeaways or.

[Will Friedle]

Read the second one.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay.

[Will Friedle]

Don't stop here. Even if you didn't like it, both.

[Ryder Strong]

Of you are completely in the bag for this book.

[Danielle Fishel]

I will finish the series. Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

Wow.

[Danielle Fishel]

I will finish the series.

[Will Friedle]

Writer's done.

[Ryder Strong]

No, I don't think. Yeah, I don't think I will. You know, I found it exhausting, a little redundant, and it didn't take me. It didn't take me into enough of an interesting new place that I need to keep going into this world.

[Will Friedle]

Okay, fair enough.

[Ryder Strong]

All the books are written from her point of you.

[Will Friedle]

Yes.

[Ryder Strong]

It's always her narration. Yeah. I think if the next book started with a different narrator, I would be like, I'm in. Because now I want to see this from. I want to enter this world from another place. As it was, it really felt limited to me.

[Will Friedle]

Has that ever been done? Like a fantasy novel comes out and then the next book comes out and it's exactly the same fantasy story, but just from a point of view of a different character?

[Ryder Strong]

You tell me, man.

[Will Friedle]

I don't think that's ever been done. I don't know.

[Danielle Fishel]

Wow. There you go.

[Will Friedle]

Interesting. And not like another story with a different character. I mean, like, tell exactly the same story, but from the point of view of a different character.

[Ryder Strong]

Here's a big question that I had to kind of. Once I've had a question, kind of hurt the book for me. Who is she writing to?

[Will Friedle]

That's funny, because there's the time. Doesn't she say, dear readers?

[Ryder Strong]

She does.

[Will Friedle]

She does.

[Ryder Strong]

Which I kind of liked, but that. But once I was like, is she writing to a mundane?

[Will Friedle]

Right.

[Ryder Strong]

Why is she explaining half of the stuff and not explaining the other half? And when I realized that tension, I couldn't relax. I was. Was like, I just wish if it had started with, like, it's a letter to her mom, right?

[Danielle Fishel]

And she's.

[Ryder Strong]

And we're in the Vocabulary. And I'm gonna do all this work because of the choice of point of view. But instead the point of view kept shifting for me. I was like, wait, why are you explaining what this is and not explaining what?

[Danielle Fishel]

In book two or three, do we not know who she's ever. I think so, because that's interesting. I like the idea of her writing to a mundane.

[Ryder Strong]

Right. Here's how this world. But then she would be much clearer up front.

[Danielle Fishel]

She'd be like, I'm in this crazy school.

[Ryder Strong]

And then for me, like, when she talked about Lord of the Rings, suddenly I was like, wait, hold on. What's the relationship world and what you know? Because, like, are you not going to acknowledge Harry Potter? Like you're going to. Because I think if she had acknowledged Harry Potter, it would have deflated the whole book. Because then you're like, now they know that they're in the real world. The real version of it. I don't know. So that was like a. A problem for me too. I was like, let's pick what the point of view is and how this information sharing.

[Will Friedle]

I don't know if you ever find out who she's writing to. I always assumed it was something along the lines of a diary.

[Danielle Fishel]

Yeah.

[Will Friedle]

Because she's. Has had. No.

[Ryder Strong]

But then she's explaining half stuff and saying, dear reader, at one point she.

[Will Friedle]

Says, essentially telling herself how the school works.

[Ryder Strong]

That was one of my favorite lines. She said, dear, dear Read Iran or whatever. She just runs away. I was like, great. All right. Feenies and Turners 1 through 5. Turner's being fun and readability. Feenies being life lessons.

[Will Friedle]

You go first.

[Danielle Fishel]

I think Turner's fun readability. It depends. If you're a big, big, big fantasy person, it's probably very readable for you. For someone like me who doesn't read a lot of fantasy, I can't really say it's a fun book. It is. I have to focus. I have to pay attention. I have to reread a couple of things here and there. I would give it one or two Turners.

[Ryder Strong]

Whoa.

[Danielle Fishel]

I. I do not think I did.

[Will Friedle]

I do not find a Turner in a motorcycle. Actually.

[Danielle Fishel]

I do not find it fun or I don't. I would not describe it as, oh, it's so fun.

[Ryder Strong]

Oh, my God.

[Danielle Fishel]

I just would not.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay, cool.

[Danielle Fishel]

Feenies. I'd give it five out of five. I love the. I love the social commentary commentary about it. I love the relationship stuff. I love the parallels to real high school. I think it is relatable. I Think there's a lot of stuff in here that sparks good conversation. I think it's great. Teens, but. Yeah, it's not. I don't think it's fun and cool. Wow.

[Will Friedle]

Will I. Again, I can only look at it as somebody who reads fantasy all the time. So I would. To me, I would give it a four turners.

[Danielle Fishel]

Okay. Four out of five Turners.

[Will Friedle]

And I would give it five. Five feenies. I would.

[Ryder Strong]

I really liked it, actually.

[Will Friedle]

No, I'm going to change that. I'm going to say double fours. I'm going to say double fours.

[Danielle Fishel]

All right.

[Will Friedle]

Four turners, four feenies. That's what I would say.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay. I'm going to. I'm pretty much the exact opposite of Danielle. I'm going to give it four turners because I really did. I think that the writing is. And I think the plot is propulsive enough. Feenies, man, this is a two max for me. I don't. I think.

[Will Friedle]

I think Feenies in Jackson Hole.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah. I think it's introducing a lot of really great ideas. Like you were saying the social. I do. And I think the magical system has so much potential. I really was disappointed by the third act, the final climax, because suddenly we're in a battle with all new characters.

[Will Friedle]

I know she's fighting.

[Ryder Strong]

We get like 10 new characters that she's suddenly aligned and we leave all the characters and relationships. And I honestly can't tell you what happens in the big battle. Do you guys know what happened?

[Will Friedle]

No.

[Ryder Strong]

It just becomes mess of big battle. Okay. You did a thing. And then we. And I just kind of like the mom mouth description. That moment where she beats that was for me, wonderful.

[Danielle Fishel]

I know.

[Ryder Strong]

And the book that was. There was this problem with the book for me, between scene and monologue. You know, it's like the monologue is super fun and pulling me through. And then suddenly we'd be in a scene and I'll like, oh, we're in. Like a day would go by in a paragraph. And so I had a hard time on the page. I kind of wish it had broken up the paragraphs a little bit more and been like. Then I went to class and take a break and then describe that scene a little bit more. And so she's not an uber descriptive writer.

[Will Friedle]

She's allowing you to do it in your mind a little bit. She's the equivalent of some. It's funny because I sometimes like it as a writer but hate it as a dungeon master who says, okay, you walk into a. A village. Describe the village for Me, it's like, well, no, I don't want to describe the village. I want you to describe the village. So some people like that in a dm. Some people don't. In this book, it worked for me because, you know, again, at the end of the day, there are so many monsters that I got to kind of create them in my mind. Okay, this is going to look like this one. This one's going to look like that one. This is what a siren spider is going to look like. I. I would say you're already there. Give the second one a try. Read the first two chapters. If you don't like it, bounce, but read the first two chapters.

[Ryder Strong]

I guess I'm just not. The reason I give it low Feeney is because I'm not sure if at the end of this, I feel like I wrestled with some of these ideas about class and privilege, but like I said, it ultimately kind of fulfilled the basic fantasy story. She is kind of chosen. She, you know, she does pull herself up by her bootstraps. So I'm not sure if it landed somewhere that I'm gonna, like, apply to my own life or, like, I would say to, like, my son. This will help you get understand high school.

[Will Friedle]

Unless he runs into a momouth, Right.

[Ryder Strong]

He's gonna know exactly what he needs.

[Will Friedle]

Yeah. You're gonna let him go in unprepared.

[Ryder Strong]

All right, well, thank you for joining us for this episode of Pod meets World. As always, you can follow us on Instagram at Pod meets World show.

[Danielle Fishel]

You can send us your emails.

[Ryder Strong]

Yeah, why don't you do this?

[Danielle Fishel]

Pod meets worldshowmail.com and we've got merch.

[Will Friedle]

Merchifac. Look it up, people.

[Danielle Fishel]

I have chosen our next book. I think you guys will all know why I. I've chosen it. It's called.

[Will Friedle]

Oh, God. It is a pamphlet.

[Danielle Fishel]

And then you go to sleep by Cristina Rivera Garza. Death takes me by Christina Rivera Garza.

[Ryder Strong]

And you've read this book?

[Danielle Fishel]

I have not. I'm sticking with Ryder and doing a book that is something I have not read but seems interesting to me and.

[Ryder Strong]

I think, is it fiction or nonfiction?

[Danielle Fishel]

It is fiction.

[Ryder Strong]

Okay, cool. All right. I'm excited.

[Will Friedle]

It sounds happy.

[Danielle Fishel]

All right, we'll see you all time next. Next time.

[Ryder Strong]

We love you all. Pod dismissed. Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fischl, Wilfred L. And Ryder Strong, executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman, executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor Tara Sukbash, producer Matty Moore, engineer and boy Meets world Superman Easton Allen. Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. Follow us on Instagram odmeatsworld show or email email [e-mail].

[Will Friedle]

This is Bo Yang from Las Colturistas, and I'm Matt Rogers, also a host of Las Colduristas. Big news to share do you know what the perfect thing to bring to any party is? But when we talked about this, I'm a person, not a thing. Oh, I didn't mean you. I meant Casamigos. Okay, Chic and honestly, the only other correct answer the Casamigos Margarita that's a sleigh. Ah, Casamigos. Anything is a sleigh because anything goes with my Casamigos.

[Ryder Strong]

Anything goes with my Casamig.

[Will Friedle]

Bo, you're a poet. Please drink responsibly.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Will Friedle]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Will Friedle]

Personalized guidance, we can help your business forge ahead confidently. Learn [e-mail] Business Business Chase for Business.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Will Friedle]

Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase.

[Danielle Fishel]

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[Will Friedle]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Ryder Strong]

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[Danielle Fishel]

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[Ryder Strong]

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[Will Friedle]

Learn more@wells fargo.com forward/activecash Terms apply Hey, it's Scott Patterson from the I Am All In Again podcast with Scott Patterson, and I've got great news for my fellow Gilmore Girls fans. The show show has a brand new home on Start tv, a national TV network celebrating strong, smart women in iconic dramas. You can watch Gilmore Girls every weekday at 5pm 4 Central and again at 11pm 10 Central, with new episodes airing each day. It's perfect whether you're discovering it for the first time or ready to fall back in love with Stars Hollow. Start TV is easy to find, stream it, catch it on cable or satellite, or watch it for free over the air. Head to starttv.com to see how to watch where you live.

[Ryder Strong]

You're listening to an iHeart podcast.