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Foreign.
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Tommy Vietor
Welcome back to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor. The final game of the 2026 FIFA World cup is now about a week away and I am already genuinely sad that this is about to be over. The tournament has taken me from casual fan to full on World cup junkie, and I don't know what I'm going to do going forward to not do work at the office because we just have the games on all day. And what makes this all the more remarkable is that before the World cup began, there was a global sense of anxiety and, and concern about holding this tournament in Donald Trump's America. Fans from all around the world were worried about ice raids, visa restrictions, travel bans, and then also, you know, issues with FIFA itself, like the exorbitant price of tickets. That one was not resolved, by the way. And while there have been some unfortunate incidents, mostly the conversation has been about the excitement around the US Men's team, at least at first. The unbelievable quality of the games themselves, the incredible finishes, and the joy of watching fans from around the world come to America, fall in love with our cities, our culture, inhale food from Waffle House and serenade stadiums with songs and even Viking chants. And it has served as a reminder to a lot of us, I think, that we live in a great country and one that is defined by its people and not by its politics. So today, to dig into all things World Cup, I am thrilled to be joined by soccer royalty, Gary Lineker. He's a former England striker, broadcaster and co founder of Goal Hanger. He was one of the greatest soccer players of his generation. The guy had a hat trick in the 86 World Cup. Incredible. Gary played in one of the most famous soccer games in history against Argentinian legend Diego Maradona. And today he's one of Britain's best known sports broadcasters. And he's one who has used his platform to speak out about social justice issues and has even been criticized for statements he's made, which we'll get into in the interview today. Gary is the host of an excellent soccer podcast called the Rest is Football, which you can catch on Netflix throughout the World Cup. And if you're in the market for a new podcast, check out Goal Hanger. They've got a bunch of great shows. The Rest is history. The Rest is politics. The list goes on. And another great way to support progressive independent media is to become a friend of the Pod subscriber here. With Crooked Media, you'll get ad free episodes of Pod Save America. You'll get other great Crooked shows like Pod Save the World is ad free as well. You'll get tons of bonus content, including bonus Pod Save America episodes. You get deep dives into the polling, the latest polls from Dan Pfeiffer. There's great newsletters, much, much more. So becoming a paid subscriber, it's the single best way you can support work and help us grow. So if you like what we're doing, please consider it. And with that, here's my conversation with Gary Lineker. So, Gary, I'm a casual soccer fan who has become obsessed with this World cup, so it's really, it's a pleasure for me to talk to a soccer legend like you. As someone who played in two World Cups for England, you've covered soccer for decades. What are your impressions of the tournament so far?
- [03:18]
Gary Lineker
I think it's been quite joyous at times. There are always, with all big tournaments, especially the World cup, there are always pros and cons, but I think by and large it's gone spectacularly well in many ways. On the pitch, I think the football's been really good and some brilliant games, some cracking stories of underdogs, you know, Cape Verde, for example. I think the real joy has probably been the way the fans have celebrated not just their own victories, but celebrated together and kind of shown a lovely humanity and togetherness that we've probably not seen previously. And perhaps it's a little message to the world that we can get on even if we're on from all parts of the world. So I think that's been wonderful. The tournament's building up now, obviously to the crescendo, the excitement, the big final. But I think it's been way better than I actually thought it would be, though. Obviously, going into it like we do in all World Cups, we always think this. You know, there are going to be things that go wrong and there have been and things that we perhaps don't like. But overall, I think it's been. I think it's been a triumph. Really.
- [04:36]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I mean, that was sort of why I was wondering. I mean, in the lead up to the tournament, there was a lot of anxiety about, you know, Trump administration policies, the impact on the quality of play, from the expansion of the tournament to more teams, ticket prices. I know that one has not been resolved because I've been on stuff. Oh, my God. People are. People don't love FIFA generally, right? Johnny Infantino and given the, you know, fucking FIFA Peace Prize and stuff. But once the game started, the conversation shifted to the play on the field. The clips of, you know, the, the Scottish fans at Fenway park singing, you know, through the seventh inning of a game. Is that like just what happens every fif FIFA World Cup? Like there's anxieties and then the play starts and we move on, or what do you make of it?
- [05:19]
Gary Lineker
Yeah, that's pretty much how it works. So you go, I've covered so many, so many World Cups and I've played in a couple of them. And prior to the World cup, everyone expresses their fears and their concerns. There's a lot of anticipation, excitement as well, the positive side, but also I go back, let's not go back too far, but let's go to 2014 in Brazil. All the fans were thousands and thousands of people on the streets demonstrating the fact that they're spending so much money on the World cup stadiums, et cetera, rather than the infrastructure and perhaps the health service in Brazil. Roll on. Four years we're in Russia, four years previously, they'd invaded Crimea. So that was a massive concern. When we go on to Qatar and there was concerns about LGBTQ rights, People have been dying, making, building the stadiums, but again, going into this one, we're obviously worried about the situation, who's going to be allowed into this country, which we never had before. We did have concerns obviously, when the referee, the Somalian referee wasn't allowed in. And, but you know, everyone was worried about ice taking fans off the streets, but that's thankfully not really transpired. So, yeah, it was ever thus, really. And you know, during the World Cups, there are always things that you don't like and there's been things like you said, the ticket price, and I think it's outrageous. I mean, FIFA is supposed to be a non for profit organization. They've got billions of pounds or dollars or euros in the, in Swiss banks and obviously they always say it goes back into the game and a lot of it course does, but I don't think it's right when you've got something as special as a World cup that profit becomes the most important thing rather than the experience of football fans. I don't think it's right that fans should have to take out a mortgage or sell their car to get a ticket to go and watch a football match. So I don't like that. I don't like the interference we've had in this World cup in terms of what happened with Balogan, the American forward that was. He got a red card, which was, I thought, a really poor decision, but they didn't reverse the decision. They Just postponed the fact that he's suspension, which felt wrong. And now we've got an English player in exactly the same position. He's got two game ban. So you just think, how can this possibly happen? So there are always things in the tournament, but I think the positives far outweigh the negatives overall.
- [07:59]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, FIFA's well. I want to ask you about FIFA in a bit. I'm sure they're a nonprofit. I would love to see what the line item is for Gianni Infantino's private jet this month because he's at a lot of games that are far away and boy, they cut to him a bunch during the broadcast. I've noticed before we get to that though. So you played on some of the biggest professional clubs in England. Also in Spain, you played for England in 80 international games. How does the feeling of stepping onto the field at the World cup compare to those other big games and moments?
- [08:27]
Gary Lineker
Nothing like it represents a new country at a World Cup. I think it's, I think it's the most special thing you can ever do. I would compare it probably to an athlete in the Olympic games. That's their moment every four years. But this is sort of, it's a little bit different to just a medal table compare, you know, us or is there with China. And it's always the same people because there's so many different sports involved. But football is kind of a global sport. Even you guys have joined in a little bit now. A bit of interest, I've noticed. So. Which is, which is great. So it's a chance really. I don't think there's anything like it where you can show your patrioticness, supporting your country, but at the same time we, we can all get on and enjoy it. So it is unique. And when you walk out, you know, representing your country and you stand there and they're playing the national anthem and, and especially if things, I mean, it's, it's just, it's hard to describe. It's just like, it's just like this huge explosion of joy and pride. It's. It's amazing.
- [09:42]
Tommy Vietor
You had a hat trick against Poland in the 1986 World Cup. They were going through some shit at the time. You know, they had one party rule, they had Chernobyl. Did you feel bad about that at all? Do you feel bad about, you know, beating them that bad?
- [09:55]
Gary Lineker
I, if I'm really honest, not particularly. I mean, obviously some terrible things in all countries suffer at different, at different times. And we've been responsible for a lot of it over hundreds of years. But no, when you're on that football pitch, you just want to play and you want to score and you want to win, and it's nothing like that.
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Tommy Vietor
You were tougher on that country than communism even. I mean, that was a tough game. Now you transition from player to broadcaster to podcaster. Do you ever feel bad about taking podcasting jobs away from unathletic schlubs that used to have them?
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Gary Lineker
I don't think I've done that. I think we've added lots of podcasts. I've got a company called Goal Hanger.
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Tommy Vietor
You got some, some unathletic schlubs on the payroll.
- [10:42]
Gary Lineker
You feel like We've definitely got some of those. Okay.
- [10:46]
Tommy Vietor
Save some downloads for the rest of us.
- [10:48]
Gary Lineker
All right. We've got, we've got political pods as well.
- [10:50]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, yeah. No, you do. You have some great ones. So you mentioned this earlier, the story about Trump calling the FIFA president to lift the suspension against one of America's best players, Flo Baligan, so we could play against Belgium. So the US we got worked in that we lost badly. So the suspension of Baligan's red card didn't matter much in terms of the outcome of that specific game. But as you said, that decision is going to be. It's going to hang around FIFA's neck for a long time. So do you think Baligan deserved a red card on the play? And like, what has the international reaction been to what FIFA did? How big a deal is this?
- [11:22]
Gary Lineker
It's. It's a pretty big deal because I think it, it goes against the integrity of our sport. You know, you've. You've got to have rules and they've got to be fair and they've got to be the same for everyone. You can't have you one rule for one and one rule for another. Not in our sport. And we've never had anything, I don't think quite like this before. So whilst it probably, well, it most certainly didn't make any difference or it might have had some kind of negative effect on America's performance with all the hullabaloo around the story. I don't think so. I mean, Belgium are always likely to beat the us. It's not your, obviously your primary sport in this country. You're on a road, I think you're journey where football is, is growing in this country. You've got a league now that's, you know, you've got one or two of the best players in the world. Messi's Messi's here. So I think it is growing. But I've always wondered why we, why in terms of FIFA, that they're so obsessed with trying to get America to be super interested in our sport. Because if ever you are, if you ever get all your real athletes playing our game, you might be bloody good. And that would be really irritating.
- [12:35]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I, I, I hear you. I mean, look, I knew we were in trouble in that game, in trouble already. But when Belgium subbed in a striker who had been named league MVP in the Syria late in the game, this guy Lukaku, and then we subbed in the former coach's son who played for an MLS club in Canada that kind of told you everything about the quality of the players who were out there.
- [13:03]
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- [13:07]
Tommy Vietor
Love it.
- [13:08]
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- [13:40]
Tommy Vietor
I'm gonna have one.
- [13:41]
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- [13:42]
Tommy Vietor
Have two drinks.
- [13:43]
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- [13:43]
Tommy Vietor
You had it at your wedding?
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- [13:45]
Tommy Vietor
People loved it.
- [13:46]
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- [14:06]
Tommy Vietor
Positive America is brought to you by sundaes. Have you ever actually looked at the ingredient list on your dog's food?
- [14:12]
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After?
- [14:12]
Tommy Vietor
No. After the first ingredient. Well, good luck. Kibble is made using extreme high heat to keep its shelf stable and inexpensive. So brands had to add back the synthetic vitamins and minerals in the form of unpronounceable chemicals. Is that really what you Want to feed your beloved pet day in and day out? Sundays for dogs is different. Founded by Dr. Tori Waxman, Sundaze was created to meet her high standards as a veterinarian and as a dog parent. Sunday starts with 80% plus all natural meats and then adds superfoods like kale, ginger and blueberries. No fillers, no nutritional blends, no chemicals, just simple complete nutrition. And the best part, Sundays requires no fridge, no freezer, no prep, no mess. And Sunday's just launched a brand new fish recipe. It's made with 80% whole and minced fish, including eco friendly invasive carp source from American rivers for a naturally rich flavor. Plus it's packed with omega 3 fatty acids that help support healthy skin, shiny coats, joints and brain function. It's complete and balanced nutrition for all of life stages. A little behind the scenes here. So John saw Leo was in the office today along with pundit. Yep, Lovett's dog. John kept putting sundaes in Leo's bowl. Leo would try to start to eat it, get distracted, and then pundit push
- [15:20]
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- [15:21]
Tommy Vietor
There was a battle for that food. These dogs absolutely love that food. And I've noticed from both of them, more energy, better moods, more calm and focused, softer coats, less itching.
- [15:30]
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You notice Pun has been itching less?
- [15:32]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, a little bit.
- [15:32]
Gary Lineker
Yeah. She looks good.
- [15:34]
Tommy Vietor
Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to Sundays for dogs.com crooked and get 50% off your first order. Or you can use the code crooked at checkout. That's 50% off your first order at Sundays for dogs.com crooked Sundays for dogs.com crooked or use the code crooked at checkout. Let me ask you about that US Team, though. So I got to see the US team play against Panama. It was one of the most fun experiences, period, I've ever been to. Sports, whatever, concerts, anything. Everyone left that stadium full of hope and excitement and saying the same thing, like, this is our breakout year. And throughout the group stage, we looked pretty good. We were operating, felt like we were operating on a different level. And then Belgium shows up and they kick the shit out of us and it's an unbiased outsider like, give it to us straight, Gary. Were we actually any better this year, the US Team? And what do you think happened against Belgium?
- [16:29]
Gary Lineker
Well, I, I think I, I remember being interviewed early on after the, before the tournament and you're always asked obviously how the host nation will go or one of the host nations, America, which. And I always said if they got through the last 16, I think that would be a really good effort. I. I couldn't really seriously see them getting past anyone that was any good, like a proper big European team on the North African sides. But I thought the fact that they did so well in the group stage was a real plus for the States and the tournament as a whole, because you want the host nations doing reasonably well. So if I'm really honest, rather than being diplomatic, I would say that's as far as I ever saw them going. You know, it's funny, after that first game, you talked about the Panama game, when they had that incredible first half, and it was really good to see. And I know Mauricio really well, Pochettino, and he's a delightful man, and I'm really pleased for him for that. And it was a terrific performance. All my American friends were coming at me and saying, texting me and saying, you were wrong about us. We're gonna go all the way. And I was going, mate. Honestly, I know these World Cups, and it's always the hope that kills you. As soon as you start believing a little bit, all goes wrong. Oh, yeah. As an Englishman, I'm very experienced in that. It's happened many, many times. But overall, I thought they did pretty well. I think think the. The palavera surrounding Baligan's thing did. I don't think it helped them. I think if. I think Mauricio missed the trick there, I think he should have just said, no, we're not doing that. It's not right. I think he could. I mean, it would have been a very difficult thing to do. And if they'd have lost in the same way, having done that, he would have been probably hung out to dry. So it's easy for me to say that, but I think it probably had some kind of effect. But overall, you know, you've got. You've got half a good team, but there's not much depth yet. And hopefully the sport will grow. But we'll see.
- [18:33]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah. Pochettino had sat Baligan. I think he might have been the first guy thrown into ice detention while in a stadium by Trump. So, you know, challenging situation to be in. What do you make of the criticism of America's star player, Christian Pulisic? He did not have a great World Cup. He sobbed himself off with an injury. I've seen some former US Men's national team players specifically criticizing him, which feels. I'm sure that's painful for him, but what do you make of this?
- [19:01]
Gary Lineker
I think it's a little unfair because I think his. His Abilities were taken a little bit out of proportion. I mean, Pulisic is a very good player. Very, very good footballer. He's had a good career. He's played in England, he's played in. He's played in Italy. He's a good footballer. But, you know, when you. Obviously, he's on all the billboards here. I mean, we're doing the now show from here and from Times Square, and. And he's everywhere, and you think, well, that's. It's almost like he's Messi or Ronaldo. And with all due respect, he's a very good footballer, but he's not a great player. He's not one of the best in the world by a long stretch. But I think when you've got carrying the hearts of a nation and the hopes of a nation, that pressure was probably so much. So I feel for him, actually, because whilst it's probably exciting to be treated as the big superstar of a. Of a World cup, in reality, that was never realistically going to happen. So I can sympathise with him to a degree. He doesn't deserve all the criticism. Football is very, very hard. It's difficult. You're playing best players in the world and they're out to stop you. I played as a forward all my career, and we have these things called defenders, and they're out there to stop you by hook or by crook, they'll try it in some way.
- [20:25]
Tommy Vietor
Every World cup, we kind of talk about, Is this the US's year? Are we going to take soccer to the next level? And it's to the point where it's kind of become a running joke, but, like, what would that entail? Is that more developing the professional level? Are we talking about, like, getting more kids involved?
- [20:38]
Gary Lineker
All of the above. All of the above, really. You've got. You've got a long way to go. What you need, you've got a league now, which is. You know, you've had a league before. Obviously they didn't quite work and have started again. Now you've got a league. You need to work out a plan for youth football. Both. I mean, obviously, you've set great examples in the women's game. You're probably the best in the world.
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Tommy Vietor
They're amazing.
- [21:04]
Gary Lineker
I would say they're amazing, but you need. I think that needs an overall plan and where you've got to really, I think, concentrate on the young, the youth players, the kids, get them taught properly. I know I spend a lot of time in America over the years, and I've been to, I've seen there's a lot of football camps. But you need some kind of proper organization, probably led by the various MLS clubs around the country where they can recruit the best talent and get them properly trained and coached. Obviously you've got a very different system to us in Europe in all football really of how you deal with players that are young in our country, for example. And the same applies across Europe. If you've got any hope of being a soccer player, you've got to join a club when you're 16. Your education, they will cope, they'll give you education on the side, but you have to start at 16. Obviously in America with your sports, they, they go to college or they go to university and they get draft picks. And by, you know, if you do that in football, it's too late. It's too late. By the time you're 20, there will be ex, you know, there's always examples that will prove that wrong, but not that many. So I think the whole, I think you really need to have a good think and a proper planning in terms of not just wait for a World cup and then hope it goes well, but build a long term future. Look 10, 20, 30 years ahead because it is realistically going to take that long for you to challenge.
- [22:44]
Tommy Vietor
Sorry, 2030.
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Gary Lineker
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
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Tommy Vietor
2030 is our year is what you're telling me.
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Gary Lineker
Sorry. Yeah.
- [22:50]
Tommy Vietor
So let me talk about asking about FIFA. FIFA, a famously corrupt organization. In 2015, you know, we watched a bunch of FIFA officials get dragged out of a hotel in Zurich in their underwear. They were indicted for taking bribes. It's like $150 million in bribes. All these sports marketing executives too. DOJ has accused FIFA of accepting bribes from reps from, you know, Russia and Qatar to get those hosting rights in those countries. Sepp Blatter, the former president of FIFA, he's currently banned from soccer related activities. Johnny Infantino, the new guy, it doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. I don't know, I'm, you know, a casual watching this stuff. Given how much money stands to be made from international soccer, do you have hope of reforming the organization? And what would that even look like?
- [23:36]
Gary Lineker
I've been hoping for that for a long time. Yeah, I find it quite, quite depressing, particularly the cases you talked about. I was in the room when Qatar and Russia were given the World Cup. I didn't have a particular problem with Russia. It's a big footbally nation, they'd never hosted it. And I didn't, I don't really have a problem with it being in the Middle east and Qatar either. But it, but what hurt, what made it feel dirty was, was the, it was so obvious that the bids were corrupt. And it was latterly proved to be the case that, you know, a lot of them took backhanders for their votes. So I remember thinking, this is just truly awful for our game. And then obviously it changed. Infantino came in, I met him, he's a nice guy. I've spent time with him and I was hopeful, I was really hopeful that this would be a change. I don't think for one minute. Now they're putting bongs to people packets full of cash to get votes for the World cup or individual or who's going to host it. But I don't like the fact that they're making that much money and I don't see why they need to do that because they, you know, yes, it goes back into the game, but does it, does it. We don't really know. It's all a little bit secretive and in the Swiss banks, so it concerns me. But the sport itself is good. But I think it's the same in all things, isn't it? It's like if you look, even if you look at politics across the world and then the example of this World cup where all fans come together, actually we just want to get on. I think 90% of the world just want to have a life. They want to be able to afford to have, you know, eat, they want to have a nice home and just get on with it. And I think actually we really like each other, all in all. But it's the people at the top, the leaders, the leaders of whether it's governments or FIFA, they just don't seem to get that. It's all. I don't know whether it's greed or it's ego or whatever it is, but I find it very depressing.
- [25:51]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, me too.
- [25:59]
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- [27:41]
Tommy Vietor
One challenge we've had here in the US is sports gambling. It's really exploded in the US since 2018. There was a Supreme Court ruling that basically opened up sports gambling in all sorts of states. A lot of sports league, the professional leagues have embraced gambling and the money it brings in. But now like no surprise, we're seeing indictments and players getting charged with like illegal betting schemes and shaving and yada yada yada. Do you worry about the impact of sports betting on the integrity of professional soccer? It seems a lot harder to fix a soccer game than it is to do like an over under on like free throws made.
- [28:13]
Gary Lineker
It's difficult. I'm not going to be naive here and say it doesn't go on because I think there are certain things and with things have been proven and you know you can bet on absolutely almost anything. Now we've had betting in our country for a long time, but you can bet on how many corners and whether a player's going to get a yellow card and that opens it up. That opens it up to possible dodgy goings on. So that concerns me overall at the top level players earn so much money that I don't think there will obviously be the odd exception. I don't think players will be bought. But it is a worry for me. I mean people can have a bet. I have no problem if somebody wants to bet on something. But what I don't like is the attitude of the betting companies and the way they entice young. I don't know whether it's the same in America, but in England they'll entice them in with a very attractive looking bet like Belgium to beat USA 20 to 1. I don't know how you do the odds in this country and then they'll get them in, but to do that bet, bet which is going to win, you've, you've got to get an account and it, and, and so then you, they're in and once they're in, I mean it ruins their lives. I've seen Killian Mbappe speak out against the gambling culture in, in around football and I absolutely, totally agree with him. I don't have, I mean on the rest is football that I, I do. We've always refused gambling adverts for example. I won't, I won't get involved in that. So yeah, I think it is a concern and it's something that we really need to keep an eye on.
- [29:57]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, absolutely. I especially worry about how seamless and easy it's become to just lay bet after bed after bet from your phone on your couch. Like there's no friction, there's no bookie, there's no casino, there's no nothing. You're just going like this.
- [30:08]
Gary Lineker
It's, it's, it's, it's terrifying because it's, it's so addictive as well. I mean, I talk to people that, that work with people in various addictions, whether it's alcohol, drugs. They say the hardest one to kick is the gambling addiction.
- [30:24]
Tommy Vietor
As a broadcaster after your career, I mean you've been outspoken about a number of issues including immigration rights, the war in Gaza. I know that the BBC, your former employer, didn't always love you talking about issues that were not soccer. In the us, athletes are often scolded for having political opinions or talking about social issues. Fox News host famously told LeBron James to shut up and dribble, which is a very nice way to talk to someone. How did you think about when and how to speak out and about what issues?
- [30:53]
Gary Lineker
I think it came with social media because suddenly you get a platform, whereas before social media, unless you're asked in the occasional interview, which I was occasionally about certain things outside of football, you don't really get the opportunity to share your views. I've always felt strongly and tried to say, you know, stand up for humanitarian rights, etc. So I think It's, I understand why most sports people don't get involved because you do get a lot of, when you do it, I, I got that as well. But it's generally shit from people with some kind of vested interest in the opposite view to that you've got. And it's generally from the people that, that, that clam go on and on and on about free speech. They, you know, where's free speech? But as soon as you do it as a sports person, oh, no, you stick to, you stick to talking about football.
- [31:49]
Tommy Vietor
Right?
- [31:50]
Gary Lineker
We don't want to hear your political opinions. But, yeah, I, I suppose I got, I started voicing my concerns about various things on social media and, and it went from, from there, really. But I, I just, sometimes if I see something where I think there's a dreadful wrong going on, I just feel the need to speak up about it. And I understand why some people don't, because it can make your life very difficult. But for me, the only person you can control really is yourself. If you go home at the end of the day and look yourself in the mirror and you think, okay, I did the right thing today, it probably doesn't make any difference to anybody, but you've got to live with yourself.
- [32:35]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, well, I think it makes a difference. Listen, I think it's. We live in a world where people are very cynical and when they see someone they know and they trust because they've watched you on TV for 20 years talking about the war in Gaza, for example, I think that matters. And it makes people think about stuff they might otherwise not have thought about and not have heard about. But also, you know, back to our conversation about, like, the friction free gambling and the ease of social media. I know it makes it like, almost too easy to speak out on things sometimes. Like, I know you had an incident where you shared a video that included some offensive imagery. You deleted it, you unreservedly apologized, you said it was a mistake, you didn't see, you know, the image in there, you never would have shared. But, like, did that make you feel, like, chastened and want to retreat from conversations or how did you deal with that?
- [33:18]
Gary Lineker
I mean, I've had a few incidents over, over my career with BBC because, you know, they have this partiality rules that actually didn't apply to people outside of news and current affairs. But then they moved the goalposts and made it through for everyone. But I'd also got into the habit of thing, so I'd had a couple of fallouts with them prior and I Always felt I was in the right on those. But the last one that kind of made my decision to leave the BBC a little bit earlier. Was that genuinely concerned? Because that was, you know, absolutely an honest error. You know, I was posting something and there was a little tiny rat emoji on the post, which I genuinely didn't see. I mean, I am stupid, but I'm not that stupid enough to have posted that deliberately. And you know, I was made aware that it's apparently some kind of anti Semitic trope. Although, you know, why rodents would ever be compared with, with human beings, I don't know. But obviously soon as I was aware about, I took it straight down and I, I apologize. But I felt bad about that because that was my fault. I should have been more vigilant and I should have seen it and, and, but I didn't. But as soon as I did, I took it down. So that wasn't easy. That was a tough few days because I, I wasn't, I wasn't pleased with myself on that one. But, but it was one of those things. And sometimes things happen for a reason. I think I'd been at the BBC for, for 30 years and it's like a long marriage in the end. You gently fall out. You go your separate way to move on. Yeah, sometimes.
- [34:59]
Tommy Vietor
One last question about like social issues in soccer. I mean, there's just a shocking amount of racism in international soccer. I mean, earlier this week, a senator in Paraguay tweeted like some vile stuff about Kylian Mbappe, who, for those who don't know, is this unbelievably good guy. He's the best player on the French team. He's one of the best in the world. Like, I don't, it's hard not to like him, but she's like, been this ongoing fight with him now. A couple of years ago, England lost in the finals of the European Championship game. And then three black players on the team were subjected with this deluge of racist abuse on social media. And I know FIFA has like run all these kind of anti racism campaigns, but you see, critics say, like, it's really just marketing, it's not substance. Do you think there's more that FIFA and international football should do to kind of punish and prevent this behavior?
- [35:48]
Gary Lineker
I think they genuinely do try to be honest and they will be supportive. I can speak for the Premier League. I think they do a lot of good in this area. And it's not just performative stuff. They do some really important things, I think unfortunately, and as we see a lot in the world nowadays. There will always be isolated attacks on people. You talked about the Paraguayan senator, I believe that cast abuse on killing Mbappe and it was outrageously racist. I mean I wasn't even trying to hide it. And then he responded and then she responded again claiming to be the victim and it was quite absurd. So. And you talked about the three penalty takers for it. And you know, that's a load of people on social media as we all know. I don't think they were views shared by the vast majority. But, but there is an issue not just in, in sport but in, in every walk of life in terms of racism. And, and again, I'll go to the. Sometimes the people at the top, the people in our governments, do they do, do they do enough? You know, is it a football issue or is it a societal issue? I think it's the latter. And it's, you know, you just need more from your governments and you need them to set a good example, not a bad example.
- [37:06]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, well, you're not getting a lot of help from the United States on that front. I have to agree with you.
- [37:10]
Gary Lineker
You indeed not not.
- [37:13]
Tommy Vietor
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- [39:05]
Tommy Vietor
All right, let's do some fun stuff to end this. So back to the World Cup. France looks unstoppable. Spain has unbelievable talent. I got to see them in person against Austria here in la. Argentina has Messi, Norway has Holland. England is stacked. We're recording this Friday before the Spain Belgium game but at the moment who do you think is best positioned to win this thing?
- [39:26]
Gary Lineker
When is this going out? When are we, when he drops Sunday. So we're dropped Sunday. So I'm going to look a fool here, right?
- [39:32]
Ad Read / Sponsor
Exactly.
- [39:33]
Tommy Vietor
That's both of us.
- [39:34]
Ad Read / Sponsor
Yeah.
- [39:34]
Gary Lineker
Yeah.
- [39:35]
Tommy Vietor
I, I, I predict Morocco is going to win it all. So I'll start it now. I'm just kidding.
- [39:39]
Gary Lineker
Well, yeah, good. We do know that result. We've already had that one. So I, I, I can't see Belgium living with Spain. I think Spain win that relatively comfortably. Then I go England, Norway. It sounds like England should win easily but Norway are going to be tough.
- [40:01]
Tommy Vietor
Holland, man, he's so, he's like a, he's like a horse out there.
- [40:04]
Gary Lineker
Is, is, he's a Viking looking guy I've ever seen in my life. He's, and he's a great guy. I know Erling really well. I've interviewed him a few times and he's got a lovely sense of humor and boy can he play. Can he finish? I mean he just scores goals so he's gonna, if we, if England can stop him, they'll have a good chance. I think England have to be slight favorites. I'm going to go with England. I can't not go with England obviously as an Englishman myself but, but you know I've, I just want it happen in my, I, I was too Young to remember 1966 when England won the World cup for their, for the only time. So I've suffered so many times. I just want, I just want us to win it before I die. Just once. Just once, please. So, but yeah, so I'll go England and then I, I think Argentina should beat Switzerland. I think Switzerland done really well to get to the quarterfinals, but I think. I think their time is probably up. And the little fella's just too good, man.
- [41:00]
Tommy Vietor
Messi's. He's just too good. Everyone in Boston, where I'm from, fell in love with the Scottish fans. You know, they were singing at Fenway Park. They were out. They're drinking the bars, you know, out of beer. Were they that lovable when you were playing against them, the Tartan army?
- [41:16]
Gary Lineker
Were they. They were horrendous, yeah, but they don't like us very much. I mean, I think they've probably got good reason, but, you know, something history with history. But no, they were tough to play against. But the weird thing is, as English, we actually really enjoyed what Scotland were doing, the fan stuff, and we genuinely want them to do. Well. The opposite is true for them. I know they desperately want us to lose every single time we play, but their fans were amazing. Their fans, I think they won the World cup of the fan World cup, didn't they? I think. But then, you know, but then you get the Japanese and the Mexicans were incredible. English, I mean, all the English fans were slightly apprehensive about going to Mexico City with Mexico's fans, and they all were a little bit nervous, but every single one of them has come away saying how amazing it was, how wonderful the Mexican fans were, how they treated English fans, how they all hugged together on the final whistle, even despite that extraordinary game where. And Mexico played so well with great heart. And it was. And that, for me, is the most beautiful thing about this competition.
- [42:35]
Tommy Vietor
It really was. There was an amazing image, I thought. I think it was a bunch of fans from Columbia, I think, when they played Dr. Congo, and there was one guy from the Congo in this giant sea of yellow jerseys, holding up his phone, singing his national anthem by himself, and everyone respectfully kept quiet. Then they all jumped and hugged him after, and it was just this beautiful moment.
- [42:54]
Gary Lineker
Some of those things, I mean, it could teach us all a lesson. Can football save the world?
- [42:58]
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Hey.
- [42:58]
Tommy Vietor
Hey. I think you're working on it over there. Goal hanger.
- [43:02]
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You.
- [43:02]
Tommy Vietor
You played your whole career without getting a single yellow or a red card. How is that possible?
- [43:07]
Gary Lineker
I never tackled anyone. Stayed away from all that.
- [43:10]
Tommy Vietor
No defense.
- [43:11]
Gary Lineker
No. Yeah, it. When I played, it was. They didn't dish out yellow cards like they quite as theatrically and quite as frequently as they do now. So there was a degree of that. But having said that, I. I don'. I'm not sure there's anyone else done it but it was mad, really. I don't know. I haven't got a temper. I don't really have a temper. So I was never gonna, you know, lambast a referee. I could whinge a little bit, but just. I didn't call them any terrible names. And I, Yeah, I wasn't overly physical as a player, and I got kicked a lot. But the thing is, you know, can that make. That can make you angry sometimes. But the truth is, the only time it really makes you angry is when it hurts a lot. And you're laying on the floor for a minute and by the time you, by the time you've been treated, you're okay again, your temper's, like, gone down. So, yeah, a variety of reasons, but it is. It was just a bit mad. I didn't even think about until near the end of my career, and people started saying, he's never been booked, he's never had a yellow card. And then I started to think, you know, it was in my mind a little bit on occasions, and I just thought, maybe my last ever game. I remember playing my last ever match, I was thinking, maybe I should just punch a ref. I was thinking that, too.
- [44:22]
Tommy Vietor
Go out in a blaze of glory. Just beat the shit out of goalie. Actually, I wouldn't mess with the goalies. Those guys look like.
- [44:29]
Gary Lineker
No, no, they're big.
- [44:30]
Tommy Vietor
Jesus Christ.
- [44:31]
Gary Lineker
Yeah, they are mad.
- [44:32]
Tommy Vietor
I was told to ask about the closest you ever came to getting carded. I don't know if there's a story there.
- [44:36]
Gary Lineker
I was in. That was in Spain, funnily enough. I was very. He went to his pocket and he, and my offense was laughing at his decision. He's made a ridiculous decision. I just burst into laughter. And he went with the pocket and I, I, I said to him, you're going to give me a yellow card for laughing? And he put his hand back. And that was it.
- [44:56]
Tommy Vietor
You're just laughing in his face.
- [44:57]
Gary Lineker
I was just. I was just laughing out loud, not in his face.
- [45:00]
Tommy Vietor
Oh, got it, Got it.
- [45:00]
Gary Lineker
I was just laughing. That absurd decision he'd make.
- [45:03]
Tommy Vietor
That sounds fun. I love when the refs get pissy. You know, you can tell when they have a little bit of an ego. You played in the infamous or famous, just famous Hand of God game against Diego Maradona in the 1986 World Cup. Can you tell listeners who might be unfamiliar with that game just a bit about what happened in Maradona? Because it's like, it is. Is it the most famous game in history? I kind of feel like it is,
- [45:24]
Gary Lineker
I think it is, I think because of a variety of reasons. Four years previously, the two countries were at war with the Falklands, or Malbinas, as they call it. So that had an effect. And then it was built up before of this that, you know, are Argentina going to revenge England's war victory, if you like to call it that. So that was a big deal. And they had. The Argentinian side, had Diego Maradona, who was the greatest footballer I certainly played against. I played with him once as well. He was the best of his time. In terms, for me, the best players ever have been two. Two Argentinians and a Brazilian, Pele Maradona, and now Messi. Messi, for me, beats them all. But Maradona was playing in this game and it was pretty awful first half for the most famous game in history. But the second half kind of heated up a bit. The ball lumped into the air and Diego went to ted it. But in the end he punched it over our goalkeeper's head. Now, I hate var and what it's done to our game, but I could have done with it that day.
- [46:43]
Tommy Vietor
That'd be nice.
- [46:44]
Gary Lineker
So he punched it in and there was obviously, yeah, huge ramifications for that. And then just a few minutes later, he scored what I think is the greatest goal that's ever been scored in a football match. I've seen a couple of similar ones. Messi scored one very similar. But you have to take into account this was a quarter final of a World cup in Mexico City, in the Azteca, with these two huge countries and Diego doing what he did was. It's the one time where I was on a pitch and somebody did something on the opposite side where I felt I ought to applaud. I didn't, because that would not have gone down very well at home. And then after that, I scored the goal that no one remembers.
- [47:26]
Tommy Vietor
Oh, I didn't catch me.
- [47:29]
Gary Lineker
There you go. There you go. My proof. Yeah, I scored with my head. And then in the very last seconds of the game, a ball came across again from John Barnes, our left winger, who made a massive difference in the game. Flipped it over. I was coming at the four putt I knew was going to score, and from somewhere, a lot of chair, their. Their left back came up and it hit the back of his head and went so. So that was. Yeah. Which, you know, I'm almost over it now. It's only. It's only 40 years on.
- [48:01]
Tommy Vietor
I was going to say, after all these years, does it still hurt to have Lost or is it just cool to have been a part of, like, history?
- [48:06]
Gary Lineker
I think it's cool to be a part of that history.
- [48:08]
Tommy Vietor
That's extraordinary.
- [48:09]
Gary Lineker
I still would have preferred to have won.
- [48:11]
Tommy Vietor
You are. Yes. Yes. Folks should go on YouTube and check out the really beautiful tribute you did to Maradona when he passed away. Yeah, it's worth watching. Would you ever run for office?
- [48:21]
Gary Lineker
No. That's the easiest question you've asked.
- [48:25]
Tommy Vietor
Nope.
- [48:27]
Gary Lineker
I'm interested. I'm interested in politics, but have no interest in being a politician.
- [48:31]
Tommy Vietor
What about.
- [48:31]
Gary Lineker
What's his name?
- [48:32]
Tommy Vietor
Binny mcbinface? Count Bin Face?
- [48:34]
Gary Lineker
That guy accused Count Ben Face. Yeah, I know Count Benface.
- [48:37]
Tommy Vietor
Do we like his platform?
- [48:39]
Gary Lineker
I like his head.
- [48:40]
Tommy Vietor
For those who don't know, this is a guy who wears kind of dress like Star wars and wears a trash can on his head. And he runs in every special election.
- [48:46]
Gary Lineker
Yeah, he runs everywhere. He's every kind of by election that he'll turn up. But normally there's a load of other politicians as well. But it does appear that in this by election in Clacton, which has been completely manufactured by Nigel Farage to try and distract from his murky goings on, and he's grifting, but it doesn't look like any of the other parties in our country are going to put up a politician to run against him. So it might be that Farish runs against Count Bim Face. And if Count Bim Face won, that will be the greatest day in political history.
- [49:21]
Tommy Vietor
The greatest.
- [49:21]
Gary Lineker
Let's make it happen. Let's make it happen.
- [49:24]
Ad Read / Sponsor
If.
- [49:24]
Tommy Vietor
Oh, my God, if Count Benface beats Nigel Farage, I will laugh so hard. It would be so much better than Liz Truss and the lettuce or anything else.
- [49:31]
Gary Lineker
I'll be even better. It would be even better.
- [49:33]
Tommy Vietor
It would be extraordinary. Final question for you. So my buddy Roger Bennett encouraged me to be an Everton fan a couple years ago. I have to say, it hasn't been the most fun winning experience, but I watched the World cup and I see that, you know the England goalie who plays for Everton, Jordan Pickford, playing lights out. You see former Everton players like Lukaku scoring for Belgium. What is Everton doing? What do we need to do to get them back on track?
- [49:58]
Gary Lineker
Well, I played for Everton way back. Yeah, One year there. It was amazing. My best season. Scored a hell of a lot of goals. Best team I played for in the mid-80s. They were brilliant. Brilliant. Such a strong side, you know, they've been through the mill a little bit and things haven't quite happened for a long time. They've picked up a bit of late. But yeah, it's a great football club, though, and that's what supporting. I'm sure it's the same in American sports. You know, the suffering makes the awful times, make the good times better. As long as you do get some good times at some point.
- [50:33]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah. I gotta tell you, as a Red Sox fan, we were like the lovable losers for years and years and years. It feels sort of akin to how England feels about winning a World Cup. And then we started winning everything and there's a bit of you that misses the hurt and misses the underdog and now everyone just hates us, you know?
- [50:49]
Gary Lineker
Yeah, well, that's what happens when you get successful. So what do you want? You want to be successful, win trophies, have loads of joy, or do you want everyone to hate you?
- [50:58]
Tommy Vietor
Ah, really, it's a tough call. I. I think the former. Last. I agree.
- [51:02]
Gary Lineker
Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly.
- [51:04]
Tommy Vietor
Last. Last question. Is playing in Barcelona or playing in Spain the most fun thing in the world? That seems so cool.
- [51:10]
Gary Lineker
Playing for Barcelona is amazing. I mean, I was there for three years. It's a monstrously big football club. It's a bit of a madhouse, but it's so special. And especially when you play those games against Real Madrid, let's call them the classicos, I mean, it's like nothing you can imagine. The first one I ever played in, I scored hatchet trick, three goals in the game and we won. We won three, two. And there were 120,000 people in the stadium and every single one of them was a Barcelona fan. There was no away fans. There were no. Because we. I don't know whether you get that in American sports, whether you get many fans that travel to watch their team play, I don't know. But in England, we do every. You know, we're a small country. It's quite easy to get around to the awake to the away grounds. But this was like. Honestly, I'd scored two goals in the first five minutes. I had goosebumps all over me with the noise. And it was so special. And those games are so big. But, yeah, my three years there were probably the highlight of my career.
- [52:14]
Tommy Vietor
I bet you didn't pay for your own tapas very often when you went out. That must have been a happy fan base watching that.
- [52:22]
Gary Lineker
They were very sweet. They were very sweet, the barc. And the weird thing is they were so respectful. They'd never, never like, they wouldn't bother you too much, you know. They'd see you and they'd not. But they wouldn't. I mean, I don't know. That's probably changed now.
- [52:35]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I think the camera phone changed that. Everyone's like, click, click, click. Listen, Gary, I've taken up enough of your time. Thank you so much for doing the show. Everyone should check out the rest. Is football, everything Gohanger is doing. You guys make amazing shows. Just, you know, just a hit machine over there. So thank you for your time. Check out the show on Netflix also, by the way, and enjoy the rest of World Cup.
- [52:56]
Gary Lineker
Thank you for the plug and thank you for having me. Enjoyed it.
- [52:59]
Tommy Vietor
Truly my pleasure. Pods of America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Farah Safari, with Reed Churlin, Elijah Cohn and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Hefcoat, Charlotte Landis, David Toles, Mia Kellman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Sengel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America.
- [53:26]
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