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- [00:00]
Pod Save America Host
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Pod Save America Host
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- [01:13]
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- [01:16]
Dan Pfeiffer
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- [01:26]
Dan Pfeiffer
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- [01:29]
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- [01:35]
Dan Pfeiffer
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- [01:59]
Alex Wagner
Foreign.
- [02:03]
Dan Pfeiffer
Welcome to Positive America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
- [02:05]
Alex Wagner
And I'm Alex Wagner.
- [02:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
John is off this week. On today's show, Graham Platner suspends his campaign against Susan Collins. And now there's a very crowded, very chaotic race to succeed him. The war in Iran appears to be starting back up again, even though Donald Trump is confused about the name of the country he's attacking. That's a real thing. Then former North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper. Talk to me about the campaign for Senate. Alex, thanks for being here today and replacing John.
- [02:29]
Alex Wagner
It's a pleasure. Although I mean we all miss John whenever he's away. Crazy happens, Stan.
- [02:36]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's true. He. He spends his vacations in the middle of online fiascos. That's neither here nor there. Okay, let's start with the Platner news. Two long days after Politico broke the story that Platner had allegedly raped a former girlfriend, Platner posted an 11 minute video on Wednesday evening saying he would file the formal paperwork to withdraw his name from the ballot. But also sharing a lot of other thoughts too. Let's take a listen.
- [03:01]
Graham Platner
I think as many of you know, over the past couple days I have faced some very serious allegations. And I just want to make it clear this is all false. I think it's really important to understand why this is happening in the timeline why this is happening right now. I only have until July 13th until I am officially the nominee. This was the last week to try to get me off of the ballot and that's why this is occurring. It's not the false allegations though that have brought us to where we are. It's the fact that they are being used by the political establishment to put structural pressure on us. What comes next needs to come from the people. I'm not trying to dictate to anyone who it should be or how we get there, but I will say this. It needs to be open, transparent and democratic.
- [04:05]
Dan Pfeiffer
As of this recording on Thursday, afternoon Planner has not actually filed the paperwork to have his name removed. The deadline is 5pm Eastern Time on Monday, but there is reporting that he will wait until then to do it. Alex, what are your thoughts on his decision to drop out and the message in that video?
- [04:22]
Alex Wagner
Asshole. Asshole. Those are my thoughts. First of all, nobody needed to hear Graham platner uncensored for 12 minutes. And the conceit in that video is preposterous. That I guess we're meant to believe that a rape victim is a crisis actor and that crisis acting as by the Democratic establishment to get Graham Platner out of the race. Neverminding that Platner's exit from the race greatly complicates the race and potentially throws it further into jeopardy. And there's no mention. We didn't. We thankfully did not play the whole video. But he never mentions any of the women who came forward on the record talking about violence and aggression, if not outright assault and rape. He never mentions and pushes back on any of those things. He just says this is all part of a deep state plot. I mean it's totally outrageous. But maybe the most egregious part of it, I think, is the fact that he suggests the system is hopelessly flawed and corrupted and that machine politics would not abide an insurgent grassroots campaign. The mission of the establishment right now is to quash real reform and real accountability, which is you. You can have jaded views about the establishment and I'm sure there's every reason for Graham Platner to have some of those and for some of his supporters too. But right now, if the goal really is to oust Susan Collins, Graham Platner needs to make people believe. He does not need to further disillusion his supporters. He does not need to spin paranoid conspiracy theories. He does not need need anybody in Democratic politics in Maine to feel like this system is entirely rigged against them. He needs people to believe that there can be a good outcome. He needs to put whatever momentum he has left into the next candidate. And he's done exactly the opposite. I mean, I just think it's completely unconscionable that this is the way this guy is exiting the race.
- [06:18]
Dan Pfeiffer
I my take on this is the subject line of your excellent newsletter. Subject newsletter. How, how the hell. Which is fuck Graham Platner. Like this. I agree with everything you said. What is so infuriating about this is if he truly cared about getting people healthcare, about stopping a genocide, about making the economic and political system more fair in this country. The that none of those things can happen if we do not beat Susan Collins.
- [06:47]
Alex Wagner
Exactly.
- [06:47]
Dan Pfeiffer
And by going down this path of conspiracy theories to diss, you say to disillusion supporters, he is making that less likely. He's making it harder to accomplish things he did. This video is Trumpian in its nature. It is conspiracy theories. It's denial. It's making it entirely about himself. You know, throughout this video he talks about how the movement they built and how whatever the process is that the main Democratic Party comes up with, they must be true to that movement. Now it is impressive for a first time political candidate to beat the two term governor of the state and beat the DSCC and Chuck Schumer and all that. That is an impressive thing. But like, just don't crawl so far up your own ass. You got 150,000 votes in Maine, right? This is not the Robert Kennedy 1968 campaign. This is not the Obama 2008 campaign. It is the smart thing for the party to do, to have a process that brings in the people who supported Graham Planner because we do obviously need them to win. But this whole thing that this was some magical messianic thing that he put together. That he himself and only he put together and we must pay respect to what he did is just fucking ridiculous. It's counterproductive. Just go away. It's the best thing he can do for the things he claims he cares about.
- [08:08]
Alex Wagner
Of course he's waiting till Monday. It's like, first of all, time is of the essence. Every. It's like paraphrasing the bear. Every second counts. And this asshole is waiting till Monday just cause. Give me a fucking break.
- [08:20]
Dan Pfeiffer
Secondly, to what end?
- [08:21]
Alex Wagner
To what? Why file the paperwork, be done. We need to move. Everybody needs to move on. I say this in my newsletter and I genuinely believe it. Like, let Dan, we have a long history here, but let this be like the last conversation we have to have about Graham Platner because the focus needs to be on Susan Collins.
- [08:39]
Dan Pfeiffer
And we're going to get to Susan Collins. We finish their next 15 minutes talking about. We are.
- [08:43]
Alex Wagner
No, well, no, I think, because I will say, and I've said this before, and I'm sure you agree with me on this. I'm sure there needs to be at some point a real. I don't want to use proctology is the word, but like a real examination, a soul searching about the lessons learned here.
- [09:06]
Guest/Advertiser
Oh, we're going to.
- [09:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
We're going to. We're going to do that today on this podcast in just a moment.
- [09:12]
Alex Wagner
Bless you. I'm getting ahead of myself.
- [09:14]
Dan Pfeiffer
Oh, yes, but let's. Before we get to that, because I do, I do want to have a conversation about how we got to this moment. And I want to talk a little bit about where you were right and I was wrong and why that was. Which we will get to, I promise. But I want to talk a little bit first about what happens next. I previewed some of this on Polar Coaster, my show for Friends of the POD subscribers. If you aren't a subscriber yet, I really don't know what you're doing with your life and maybe you should visit crooked.com friends to change that. But anyhow, I'm a believer, provided that Platner does formally drop out, the main Democratic party has until July 27th to replace them. They've said they'll hold a convention to pick a new nominee and we'll make all the details public soon. Although there's been a lot of reporting on what it is, and they claim that transparency will be of the utmost importance. What do you make of the convention idea? Is there a better one or is there a way not to make this process so Messy.
- [10:04]
Alex Wagner
Oh, we get like, listen, I'm the last one to have a better idea, but I would like to see. I mean, there's been talk about town halls and debates. I mean, I think there has to be some before these delegates make the call. If it is in fact the leadership of the state party that is going to decide who the nominee is. One, one would hope there would be some concession to both, you know, those delegates and the public in the sort of the. And the notion of choice by having a full or full ish airing of their views. And, and, and that's obviously going to have to be fairly abbreviated. But there needs to be some deference to, you know, helping educate the public and the delegates about who these people are. I've done a glancing search on the Internet, but that's not sufficient. And they haven't had to talk about their positions in a fulsome way. So I think that, you know, they're neat. I would love to see some kind of public format where they're. Whether it's debate town, whatever, that's moderated and that's, you know, official feeling beyond just interviews with the press and podcast appearances.
- [11:11]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes. And so the way that we think this is going to happen is there would be this convention and I think would sort of model what would be like a brokered convention at a national party convention in an election year. And there would be, I think in some parts of 500 delegates, the 16, I believe, counties in Maine county parties would elect delegates.
- [11:30]
Alex Wagner
I think it's over 600 delegates. That's what.
- [11:32]
Dan Pfeiffer
600 delegates from the 16 counties. And they will. So this is going to be party insiders under all circumstances. And like there's just no way for actual. You can't hold an election in this time period. So it's going to be this, this is probably. This is going to be messy for sure. There's going to be, you know, candidates are going to try to. And we'll talk about who the cancer in a second. But they're going to try to influence who the delegates are in all these places. They're going to put up slates. It's going to be messy. Now this is probably the best process if you want to involve as many people as possible and have the most transparency. Because the other alternative is the state party committee just votes. And we're in a weird BIZARRO version of 2024 where we're losing a nominee very close to an election, about the same number of days actually. And instead of what happened in 2024, where just one candidate automatically becomes a nominee. We're going to have a process of some kind and these people are going to compete and maybe one of them will come and stand out. And hopefully at the end of this process we can come together. So there are no good answers here, I guess, is my point.
- [12:35]
Alex Wagner
But you know what? I'm looking forward to the mess. I think everybody's hungry for some sense that there's a real choice and there are real races. And this is not a foregone conclusion on the part of party elders and it's not a fait accompli. And Maine is pretty like from my podcast, Runaway country interviewed one of the people, Dan Cleban, who's I know we're going to talk about this. One of the potential replacements for Platner. And there is so much frustration at the idea that Washington and Chuck Schumer and outsiders and elders know better and have involved themselves in this race. There's real desire to have some openness in all of this, come what may.
- [13:17]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. So as for who might run, potential candidates started testing the waters even before Platinus said he was leaving the race. Here's a small sample of how they're pitching themselves.
- [13:26]
Ad Voice/Guest
So I'm the only candidate that's demonstrated that I can win statewide with conservative Republicans and urban young people that are much more liberal. Maine deserves a fighter in this seat, and I will be that fighter. I will fight for Medicare for all because in the wealthiest country on earth, nobody should ever go bankrupt over a medical bill.
- [13:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
I own a small business here in Maine. I created, built it from the ground up out of my garage. You know, employ over 100 Mainers, pay a living wage, provide 100% of their health insurance coverage. I mean, I'm an outsider. I'm not an elected. I'm not a career politician. I've never held elected office. That was former Maine Senate president Troy Jackson, the state's former top health official Neerav Shah, and brewery owner Dan Cleban. On your podcast, Alex Runaway country indeed. They've all said they will run. So have Secretary of State Shenna Bellows, former congressional candidate and political operative Jordan Wood, former Platner staffer and congressional candidate Paige Loud, former Senate candidate David Costello. State Rep. Valley Geiger is considering running, too, although she hasn't officially said so. It's a lot of people. Do you find anyone compelling in this crowd? What do you make of them?
- [14:35]
Alex Wagner
I mean, I listen, I talked to Dan Cleban, who's the bar owner, the brewery owner, Nothing Goes together like oysters and beer. And he was gonna run last. He has an interesting backstory insofar as he was gonna run last July and was told not to by the dscc, the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, which is of course under the aegis of the purview of Chuck Schumer and is an example of just how fucked this process has been since its inception. Right. And later dropped out of the race and endorsed. He entered the race, but Platner had sort of won the hearts and minds of a lot of Mainers at that point. He subsequently endorsed the governor, Janet Mills, and then dropped out of the. He's compelling as kind of a sort of surrogate for the everyman working class Mainer that Platner represented, even if some of his biography was a bit hazy around the edges. As far as his working class bona fides, Troy Jackson sounds like he's the person that most. You know, he's gotten an endorsement from Ro Khanna, who was a key endorsement for Grant Platner, at least from a national Democrat. He, I believe, is a fifth generation logger from Allagash, which is like bless Maine and all their outdoorsiness brewers and oystermen and loggers. He's a former president of the Maine Senate. He has some experience. He's, you know, I think he has the progressive bona fides that people are looking for. I gotta stop saying the word bona fides. Nirav Shah is a really interesting one. He was acting, I think, director of the CDC for a minute as well.
- [16:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes.
- [16:10]
Alex Wagner
Which makes me a little worried given that the CDC has become very politicized and, you know, former CDC director and someone who is going to be asked about. About COVID It's just like I am not a COVID vaccine denier or a Covid skeptic, but it's extra baggage in these insane and tumultuous times. I don't know. What do you think?
- [16:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
I am all tapped out on having opinions on main Senate candidates. The truth is I don't know any of these people well enough to know who would be a good candidate. Sad thing is we're not really going to know when it comes time to pick the person. This is a very abbreviated process. I hope there is someone in Democratic politics who was investing more than the $6,000 that the yahoos who recruited Graham Platner used to vet him and to do full vets on all of these people so that everyone knows everything you possibly can know. Because whoever this person is going to be under massive scrutiny because if one of the tests will be like, normally a main Senate candidate does something. Not obviously what Graham Platner's been accused of here, but, you know, had some bad online, you know, in a different world, a different race of some bad online posts or something else. It'd be like a little speed bump in this race, with this level of scrutiny after what happened with Platner will be giant news. You gotta make sure whoever we pick can withstand that scrutiny. That's. I guess that's sort of the main thing.
- [17:34]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [17:34]
Guest/Advertiser
Two weeks.
- [17:35]
Alex Wagner
No big deal. Great time to do like vetting town halls, convention. No problem. But thank God Graham Platner's waiting until Monday to drop out.
- [17:42]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. Yeah. So. Because we definitely can use the next 72 hours or so. It's fitting you've been. You're here for this episode because as many of our listeners know, every time there's been big, grand, platinum news or Maine news, it's just been a coincidence. You and I have been on Mike together either on Pod Save America, on your podcast on YouTube.
- [18:02]
Alex Wagner
At one point, Dan, we. We talked about doing just a main Senate podcast, Pod Save Maine.
- [18:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. We will not be. We will not be doing that now.
- [18:09]
Alex Wagner
Yes, Pod Save the main. Why, if there's still a Senate race going on. Okay, I'm just kidding. We don't need to. Only on. But here's the important thing in the foxhole we've been.
- [18:17]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes, we. We've talked about Maine more than anything else over the last year here.
- [18:29]
Guest/Advertiser
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- [19:37]
Pod Save America Host
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- [21:02]
Dan Pfeiffer
and it needs to be said. You've been a platinum skeptic from the beginning. The very beginning. Before anyone. Before the Reddit post came out. Before the tattoo. Before the more recent stuff. You were a platinum skeptic. And I will say here that you were right and I was wrong.
- [21:19]
Alex Wagner
I don't want to be right, man. I did not. This is not about me being right and you being wrong. Was I even right? I don't even know what that means. I just.
- [21:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, you were right to be skeptical of Grand Platinum.
- [21:30]
Alex Wagner
I Was, Yes. I guess I was skeptical.
- [21:32]
Dan Pfeiffer
Would you like to take a victory lap?
- [21:34]
Alex Wagner
You don't want to take a victory lap. This is not a good moment for. I mean, first of all, it's not a good moment for Graham Platner. It's not a good moment for the women that he allegedly tormented and assaulted. It's not a good moment for the Democratic Party because I think we're at a real crossroads here in terms of how the Democratic Party manages candidate recruitment and what it means to answer the toxic masculinity of maga. And it's not a good moment because the focus has been taken off of Susan Collins. And so it's hard to take a victory lap. I mean, I hope out of this there's a little bit. The thing about Grand. I was not like some sage and, like, saw into the future or anything, but I was always just. The bro glow was a little bit. I didn't get it. I didn't like the way. I was never a Janet Mills supporter, but I didn't like. People summarily dismissed her.
- [22:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
And I felt like I summarily dismissed her.
- [22:33]
Alex Wagner
Yes, definitely. And that's not to say that she should be the nominee, but I feel like there's like a late. There was always like, latent misogyny around it. And I felt like, you know, in the retrospect, and maybe this is just hindsight's 2020 or whatever, but there are a lot of women in a lot of places who are like, never are really that on board and kind of felt a little bit sheepish, saying, I don't know about that guy. He seems kind of like an asshole. I mean, I got into fights with Platner supporters, you know, where the context of the conversation was, he has talent. He might be able to get the job done, but he seems like a dick. And there was a real. And like, the dickishness may not just be a sort of side effect of ambition, but may be like a more complicated and potentially serious character flaw. And as it turns out, I think that's what it was. This is someone who's completely self absorbed to the point of maybe almost like a certain psychosis based on that exit video, and certainly has some demons he really needs to wrestle with.
- [23:34]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, you know, I. When I say summarily dismissed Mills, let me say what my actual real position was, because this is sort of how you and I first had this conversation. Was I, Janet Mills gets in the race. The DSCC endorses her. Five minutes later, Chuck Schumer endorses her. And we, we know at the time that the DSCC has been trying to clear the field for Janet Mills, telling people like Hannah Pingree and these other candidates in Maine to run for Governor, not run for Senate because Janet Mills is going to be, is the chosen candidate of the Democratic establishment. My view at the time was that I thought that was a big mistake for the dscc, that if the DSCC is going to get involved in a primary, they better be 100% certain that they have the best candidates. And I didn't think you could look at what happened with Susan Collins in 2020, what happened in the country in 2024 and declare beyond a shadow of a doubt that a 79 year old unpopular two term governor was our best bet. I wasn't convinced Graham Platner was a better bet, but I thought the voters of Maine should pick it up now. I was intrigued by Platner for sure. I'm not going to take that, not going to dispute that. Like I've been thinking a lot because I was wrong here. I don't like being wrong. It happens a lot. But I really, I've really tried to think about like where, like where I erred in this and there are a couple of places and I'll, and so I'll say what those were. The first is if I have a bias or you can even say a blind spot in politics. It's for outsider candidates who did not grow up their entire life wanting to be in office. That's why I like Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton. That's why I really loved Beto o' Rourke when he was running for Senate and was intrigued by his potential as presidential candidate. It's why I supported Mallory McMurro in the Michigan Senate race this cycle. That's what gets me most interested are candidates like that. I think they have the potential to be the best candidates and they can make the best leaders because they've lived a normal life. They're more human, they talk more like a human and they're less risk averse. The people who spent their whole lives deciding what mistakes not to make, to avoid being, to avoid coming off their path to higher office generally are not living authentic lives. Yes. And I think that makes you a better candidate. It absolutely does. Now that will blow up in your face a bunch because those candidates are by definition higher risk. They have higher ceilings and lower floors and, and so that's why I was intrigued by Platinum. Like I thought to beat Susan Collins you needed a higher, higher variance candidate, someone who could do something different than Sarah Gideon did or all the other people came before. And I was not convinced that Janet Mills could do that. And I do believe that that was actually the right call. Not that Platner was the right person, obviously he was not, but that Janet Mills was the wrong candidate.
- [26:24]
Alex Wagner
Well, and we see that now. That's borne out in polling that we have even now.
- [26:27]
Dan Pfeiffer
And, you know, and so. And then the second. The thing that, you know, that I feel I'm mad at myself about is as we went through this process, when you and I had first had this conversation, we knew nothing about Platinum. Then we saw the online posts, and the things he said were horrible. And I thought there was a real chance that that could be disqualifying both in the primary and the general to voters. But I did believe, naively, apparently, the story he told about being a person who was dealing with PTSD at a dark time in their life in drinking and did a bunch of things and then changed their life improved. And I do believe that we should leave space for people who make mistakes to still be in politics.
- [27:12]
Alex Wagner
Of course, I think redemption and empathy are, like, things we need to cultivate as a society beyond politics.
- [27:19]
Dan Pfeiffer
And I believed that. And I believed. And I actually still believe this. The story he told about how he got the tattoo was true. Now, what I've come to like, I do not believe that he knew it was Nazi tattoo, and I certainly don't believe he was a secret Nazi for all of the very, very many bad things.
- [27:36]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, I'm with Tim Miller on this, though. I think he got it, then figured out what it was and then kind of used it as a, like, you know, cocktail point. Look at my Nazi tattoo. I think he lied about when he.
- [27:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes, I think he lied about when he discovered that it was a Nazi tattoo. That. That I have come to believe, but I don't. There's. This is a guy who was not shy about sharing his opinions online. So I feel like if he really was a Nazi, we would know that. Now, you could say that the Nazi tattoo. One thing people say is anyone who gets a Nazi tattoo for whatever reasons, has bad judgment. And that may be. But a lot of people in their 20s, when they're on leave from war and drunk, have bad judgment. And should that.
- [28:09]
Alex Wagner
I mean, you have. You have a Celtic band around your forcep, right?
- [28:13]
Dan Pfeiffer
I have no tattoos.
- [28:14]
Alex Wagner
I have a bunch of back tattoos, a bunch of butterflies that I regret now. They're not the shamrock on my ankle. I love that.
- [28:22]
Dan Pfeiffer
They are not Nazi butterflies. Correct.
- [28:25]
Alex Wagner
No, I actually have no back tattoos, just not that I don't have a toe ring.
- [28:33]
Dan Pfeiffer
Anywho, the other thing I regret, and this is the thing where I really started to get very worried about Graham Platner, was when the story came out in May about him sexting other women while married. And it's not that people can't make mistakes in their marriage and still run for office. That happens all the time. It was that that happened so recently that it really brought into question the redemption story that I had naively believed from him. Right. It's one thing to make mistakes in a different part of your life. And then the story he told us, he made a bunch of mistakes. He changed his life, he started working, he got into politics. But that wasn't the story. That wasn't the reality. But even then, it was like his wife said, they worked through with counseling. We all followed their fertility journey together. It just seemed like they had put it behind them. But it really made me wonder what the next thing was. Right.
- [29:24]
Alex Wagner
And then he lied to everybody. And then he lied to everybody.
- [29:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
But the thing when I look back on all of that is don't believe a liar is a really. That's not helpful advice because you don't know someone's a liar until you find out later. What I think I should have paid more attention to was that back in March, you and I did a political experts react where we were looking at ads that were running in that race. This included the first negative ad that Janet Mills launched against Platinum, which had a bunch of women reading, like, reacting to the things that Platner had posted. And the one that. And you made this point to me, and it really has been in my head for the last few weeks. Here is what he said about minimizing rape. And that sort of inherent misogyny should have been a much bigger flag. Like that is a sign of something else that I wish I'd paid more attention to that in this discussion and that that was separate and apart from some of the other things that he said that were just stupid and offensive. That was dangerous and offensive.
- [30:35]
Alex Wagner
That just for. I'm going to paraphrase it a little bit, but that was the Reddit post where he said people should take some responsibility, not get so fucked up that they end up having sex with someone they don't mean to. Which is deeply ironic considering the allegations against him. Can I ask you something, Dan? And I genuinely don't know what I think about this because we talk a lot about Schumer and Obviously this was just a totally fakacta situation where the DSCC is intervening to great the detriment of the race. But like Chuck Schumer's also picking candidates in a lot of other swing states and in the putting the heft of the DSCC behind people like Mary Peltola and Roy Cooper and Sherrod Brown and people who are good candidates for those races and maybe they would have gotten there regardless of Schumer's involvement. But like, are we, and I genuinely don't have an answer to this. Are we focused on this? Because he just did such a colossally bad fucking job picking the candidate in this race.
- [31:35]
Dan Pfeiffer
I what he did in Alaska, North Carolina, in Ohio was he recruit candidates who could clear the field themselves. There were candidates so good, so well known, so universally believed to be the best candidate that no one run against him. So it wasn't like there were a bunch of other people running that. Janet Mills was not that candidate. She wasn't.
- [31:56]
Alex Wagner
Janet Mills didn't even want to run.
- [31:58]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, that's the other thing. Right. And, and also Maine is a state with lots of Democrats. Alaska, you know, there's only one. The recruitment list for Alaska was Murray Paltola. There was no one else. Right. It was Paltola or bust. Ohio, it was Sherrod Brown. And there was a long gap between one and two on that list. North Carolina got a few more Democrats who could have run, but Roy Cooper was far at the top of that list. So once you got those. Or was it I didn't like what they did in Michigan backing Haley Stevens.
- [32:26]
Alex Wagner
There's a Texas element of all this as well that could end up not working out very. Who knows?
- [32:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I, My general view is Chuck Schumer, the dsc, the DSCC should recruit candidates. They should if they think someone's the best. Church wants to get on the phone and try to convince them to do it. They should do that. When there is an active primary going on and then they put their thumb on the scale and they take that choice away from the voters. Now, when I first wrote this and was first upset about it, it's because the DSCC BET candidate always won the primary. Politics has changed so much in the last two years that that's actually become an albatross around people's necks as opposed to like this huge asset. But at the time it was the dscc. You could pick the candidate and essentially take the agency away from the voter, which is what they were trying to do in Maine. That did not work in Maine. And so it's not that the DSCC and Schumer were wrong in every instance, it's just they were wrong in this one.
- [33:21]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, well. And the dynamics of it are particular and the outcome could have been meaningfully different if Chuck Schumer hadn't tried to clear the field and do what he did. And in fact, I think in some ways elevate Platner in the course of all of that. Right. He became a poster child for defiance and grassroots activism and saying fuck you to politics as usual.
- [33:44]
Dan Pfeiffer
The same thing happened in Michigan where by putting the thumb on the scale for Haley Stevens, he elevated Abdul. And then one of the worst things that happened to Malik Morrow was a report, I think in Politico or somewhere else that said Schumer would be fine with either Haley or Mallory. So all of a sudden Abdul got to go out and say all the time, I'm the only candidate that Chuck Schumer opposes in this race and continues,
- [34:06]
Alex Wagner
I mean, continues to do like yesterday.
- [34:08]
Dan Pfeiffer
The thing I've been struggling with this conversation and this has been a, I would say it's not been a fun time online for a podcast associated with Graham Platner.
- [34:18]
Alex Wagner
Speak for yourself. I'm just kidding.
- [34:20]
Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, as you should have your moment. But is, I've.
- [34:25]
Alex Wagner
No, no, it hasn't been fun. It hasn't been fun.
- [34:27]
Dan Pfeiffer
I've tried to struggle with what, like the broader lesson is here because it shouldn't be that outsider candidates are bad or they can't, or that person thinking
- [34:38]
Alex Wagner
so broadly, like this guy, you didn't have to know that he was a dick from the beginning. But once the Reddit posts started coming out, like, right, I'm all for redemption, but there were a lot of data points.
- [34:52]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, yeah, no, that, that, I mean that, that is, that is the, that is, that is the true. But, but I think what I'm saying, like for example, there was this Biden aide who's on CNN today who is saying, basically taking Platner, comparing him to Abdul Al Said and saying like also unvetted, same consultants and. Well, it's just absurd because Abdul has run for governor and has been a, a government official in Michigan for a while. So that's an absurd comparison. But is this idea that people who are outsiders or first time candidates are risk inherently risky because they haven't been tested, they haven't been vetted by the system?
- [35:28]
Alex Wagner
Right, that's what I mean. Nobody should take a broad lesson about outsiders from the Platner.
- [35:33]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes. Because here were two other people who have had huge sexual misconduct, sexual assault problems, who are the insider candidates of Eric Swalwell and Andrew Cuomo.
- [35:44]
Alex Wagner
Right, Right.
- [35:44]
Dan Pfeiffer
There's nothing, there's nothing about being a creep that is exclusive to first time candidates. It's also true. I mean, the other thing that, you know, the other as you, as we think about this and like, what it all means, like one story that people can tell and it's not an incorrect story, is that a bunch of podcast bros and Democratic strategists and other dumb men online fell for the shtick of this narcissist.
- [36:12]
Ad Voice/Guest
Right.
- [36:13]
Dan Pfeiffer
And that it was true that a lot of women, and a lot of women in my life that I regret not listening to, like you and Sarah Longwell and other people who have raised these flags, you know, and this was like dumb men and much more sightful women. And they're in the loudest voices. I think criticizing Platinum, particularly nationally, were women. But then you look in Maine and Platner beat Mills, was beating mills by like 15 points among women. A majority of that 150,000 votes was women. And so I just, you know, just reading Rebecca Tracers very insightful piece and thoughtful piece about her support of Graham Platner.
- [36:51]
Alex Wagner
Well, Michelle Goldberg has one as well.
- [36:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah.
- [36:54]
Alex Wagner
Can I say something? Well, to your point about the podcast bros and other guys, I think, and I feel like I always sound like, you know, Brown University professor when I say this, there's a real crisis right now in terms of how the left responds to MAGA style masculinity and like, what it means to be tough and a warrior, but also progressive and a populace. And like, what is that special alchemy? And like, we got the, the, the left needs to build that person. They need someone who can, who can be the antidote to all the, the just utterly toxic, garbage male sort of the masculinity that is being showcased on the right, which is ultra retrograde, misogynist and bad for the country, set aside, setting aside bad for women. And like, Platner was a unicorn in that way. He felt like, okay, here's someone who's legitimately a progressive and he's a man's man and all this. And that was, I think, intoxicating to a group of men in particular who are looking for that answer. And it may be a latent desire, it may be an explicit desire, but I do think as a dude in the world who's a progressive, it's a weird, complicated time, which doesn't mean we should overly focus on men. I get It. But it is a problem. I mean, I have two boys. Like, there is a dearth of real. Kind of like, there's no playbook for how to be a guy in this moment. And I think if you're in the world of politics and you're in media, you're kind of trying to. You're bouncing between archetypes and you're trying to figure out, like, okay, what's the way to be. What should we be supporting and championing? And Platner was very attractive in that way, and I think that's part of the reason he took off, at least in the online media space, in a way that, I mean, Mills never was going to, but even other guys in American politics haven't. I mean, he was just incredibly compelling in that way.
- [38:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, he was an excellent communicator. If you listen to, like, his interviews, like when he did the New York Times podcast, like, he. The interview he did with our friend Ben Rhodes about post 911 wars. Like, he, like. I mean, he was interesting and thoughtful and obviously, like, how he looked and how he sounded, you know, affected that. But it just was all bullshit is the problem, right?
- [39:09]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. No, he's a pig. And that's what's so devastating, is like, oh, it turns out actually, like, that that brand of machismo is totally corrupted. Which is.
- [39:22]
Graham Platner
Or.
- [39:22]
Dan Pfeiffer
Or this.
- [39:24]
Alex Wagner
His particular.
- [39:25]
Dan Pfeiffer
His machism, this particular vehicle. Like, there was something Platner was offering both in Maine and nationally that was compelling to a lot of people.
- [39:33]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [39:34]
Dan Pfeiffer
The problem was that the person who was offering that was Graham Platner. Right. And so, like, how do you. Like. It's like, we have to spend some time, and we're not gonna do it here. We can't do it here. Over time, just figuring out, like, what was it? I don't want to overstate how important this was once against 150,000 fucking people in Maine. This is not. You know, he. This is not right.
- [39:53]
Alex Wagner
But, I mean, this was someone who's. His advisor said that he could run for president in 2020. This wasn't going to end in May.
- [39:59]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes, but every. I've been around a lot of Senate candidates. Consultants sell it to every fucking person because they all want them to. Because it's very much in every. In every consultant's interest. Everyone wants to be David Axelrod, James Carville, Karl Rove. And so they're looking for those people all the time. It doesn't mean they actually would. But he was a national phenomenon. He broke out in a way that I Mean, this is a bad example, but in a way that, you know, Stacey, this is a good example. Stacey Abrams did, even though she didn't win, a way that Beto broke out. And so it's like, yeah, there was something there. And it's like, what was that? And how do you try to figure out what that is that's separate from the very damaged, very fucked up person, the pig, as you said. Okay, enough of Grand Platner. How much damage do you like? How fucked are we in Maine after all of this? Do we, like, what kind of shot do you think we have against Susan Collins now?
- [40:48]
Alex Wagner
I think, and I. I mean, I think my advice would be say the word Susan Collins every time you want to say Graham Platner over and over and over again. Because she is weak, but she is going to be a challenge. We don't need to go into the numbers. We've talked about them a lot. But she overperforms, or she has in most elections she's been in recently, this is the first one she's going to have to face voters since Roe fell. So. And I think that that's legit in a state that's what, 60% of the electorate is female. You know, hopefully people remember the fact that she built the Supreme Court that overturned Roe. She was the critical vote in the Kavanaugh confirmation and fancies herself a moderate, which is complete horseshit. I don't know, Dan. I mean, I think that. But the fact that I take it as a positive sign that in a way that Maine voters are so desperate or they're so fired up about getting Susan Collins out that they were willing to overlook the initial phase of Graham Platner's very serious transgressions. I mean, that's, I guess, the silver lining, right? But, you know, the party's gotta manage this process in a way that doesn't further disillusion Democratic voters. Grant Platter needs to shut the fuck up and the focus really needs to return like a laser to Susan Collins.
- [42:15]
Dan Pfeiffer
I think if we can. Now, this is me being glass f full. If we can pick the right person, and the right person might just be someone named Generic Democrat with no tattoos. He doesn't know how to get to Reddit. We are in a better place than we would have been with either Graham Platner. Pre even, let's say that this accusation never happened. Where Graham Platner would have been. Just everything we knew up until two days ago, that we have potential for this new person to be stronger than that and stronger than Janet Mills would have been. Yeah, because even like in that New York Times Sienna poll from two weeks ago, after all the sexting stuff and all this came out grim, Platner was still more popular than Janet Mills.
- [42:55]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:56]
Dan Pfeiffer
And so we have a chance here. Now, this is a state where, using that same New York Times poll, Democrats lead the generic ballot by 11 points. They want the Senate to be in democratic hands by 11 points. I believe 11 or 12 points. So there is like there was and this is say this more Democratic than 2020. A lot of people, a lot of people who profile as Democratic voters move to Maine, particularly to the Portland area, starting around Covid. So it's been, it's actually a state that has grown from in migration. So we should still be able to win the race. It's gonna be really fucking hard. Collins is gon so much money, she's had to spend almost none of it. There's going to be a gazillion dollars. Big war chest. Big war chest and pack money. But I do think there's a chance we can make this all like every. This is what I was saying. This is my unsolicited advice to the platinum people two weeks ago, which was all this Epstein island reordering politics, populism stuff is all that matters, is that Susan Collins, no matter what else you feel about her, a vote for her is a vote to let Donald Trump control the Senate and pick Supreme Court justices. That's doesn't matter how you feel about her. It doesn't matter if you liked her personally, doesn't matter if she got money for the iron bathworks or whatever else she is. A vote for her is a vote to let Donald Trump pick two more Supreme Court justices, full stop. Just like that's what people care about. That's what it's about. Don't let it be about anything else. Don't overcomplicate the fucking simple. So I think I do believe we can still win this. It'll be hard.
- [44:27]
Alex Wagner
Totally agree. And I interviewed Adam Gentleson, former deputy chief of staff to Harry Reid and chief of staff to John Fetterman in the podcast, and he is aligned with you that this makes the Democrats chances are better now than they were a week ago when Platner was still in the race before the Politico reporting.
- [44:43]
Dan Pfeiffer
So there's that, there's that.
- [44:45]
Alex Wagner
That was like a therapy session.
- [44:47]
Dan Pfeiffer
Dan, I've had a lot to say for a few days here, so I'm glad we've.
- [44:51]
Alex Wagner
I feel very honored that you wanted to share those things with me.
- [44:55]
Dan Pfeiffer
I'm actually if John was not on vacation, I would have suggested that we swap him out for you. I feel better doing this with you.
- [45:00]
Alex Wagner
Well, thanks. I mean, we've gone on a long road to.
- [45:04]
Dan Pfeiffer
We've been on a long.
- [45:05]
Alex Wagner
It's been a long, strange journey.
- [45:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes.
- [45:07]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, we have.
- [45:15]
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- [47:45]
Dan Pfeiffer
all right. Now let's turn to a new story of interest to just slightly more people than the main Senate race, the war with Iran, which seems to be close to restarting any minute now. Ships transiting the Strait of Hormuz started coming under fire again earlier this week. On Tuesday, the US Military responded by hitting targets in Iran and reimposing sanctions on Iranian oil. Iran responded to that with shots at American installations in the Middle East. We responded to that with more strikes and so on and so on. It's all a giant mess and getting worse by the hour. The good news is that Donald Trump seems to have a very good handle on all of this. Here he is at this week's NATO summit in Turkey.
- [48:22]
Alex Wagner
Is the ceasefire over? Is the ceasefire done? Is the MOU dead?
- [48:28]
Ad Voice/Guest
It's a very interesting question to me. I think it's over. I don't want to deal with them anymore. They're scum.
- [48:35]
Dan Pfeiffer
We had 111 missile shot by the
- [48:40]
Ad Voice/Guest
Islamic Republic of Japan.
- [48:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
The Islamic Republic of Japan.
- [48:48]
Alex Wagner
That's a headline story. I didn't even know.
- [48:50]
Dan Pfeiffer
Japan not only not only has become become Islamic, they're also at war with the United States right now.
- [48:57]
Alex Wagner
So so much happened while I was
- [48:59]
Dan Pfeiffer
focused on knee deep in Maine politics. We missed a lot of stuff around the world. So I'm sure Tommy and Ben covered this.
- [49:06]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, well, thank God. Thank God we have them on watch.
- [49:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes. Things seem to be going well in the Middle east, huh?
- [49:13]
Alex Wagner
Totally. The line out of the White House is this is according to Axios. I think today we're going to slap Iran around a bit so they understand we're not fucking around. That's the strategy here. They are saying that this, our next stage of war could be weeks, could be months. But the essence of this, Dan, is that Iran is not happy about the way things are going The Strait of Hormuz, and they want to reclaim control of it. And that is an unresolved dispute that is going to continue to fuck the global economy and could make life incredibly painful for Republicans heading into the midterms. And so, I mean, the idea that, that anything was resolved by a page and a half docusign, however many weeks ago that was, is a joke, as is this administration's foreign policy. I, I, I, I am not surprised that we are here. I also am unclear as to how any of this resolves itself, given the utterly. We are at loggerheads with the Iranians over the strait. They want ships to pass through on their side of the strait and register with the. Wait for it. Hormuz Transit Authority. Can someone get me an HTA hat? And instead, the US Is like. Because that's how they're gonna, that's how they're gonna tax people or toll people or companies as they go through the street. And the US Is like, you know, go the southern route. Don't register with the hta. Use the, the, the side of the, of the strait where Oman rules the water, if you will. That's not going over well with the Iranians. And now we're back at war. Because the fundamental issue at the heart of this is nowhere close to being resolved.
- [50:59]
Dan Pfeiffer
The Wall Street Journal had a story that said that this is all basically happening because Section 5 of the Ceasefire agreement that I would say Trump signed it, Versailles, is poorly written and has led to a lot of confusion about what arraigning control of the Strait actually means.
- [51:15]
Alex Wagner
They never really worked it out because it was a page and a half, because it's a joke, because there was no diplomatic process. And it's just that they wanted, they wanted to get gas prices down.
- [51:25]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, they wanted to say the strait was open so that the market would improve and oil prices would start to go down, even if the street was not actually open.
- [51:33]
Alex Wagner
It's insane. Now, gas prices have ticked up a little bit. They're not where they used to be. But, you know, when you are so ambiguous about how, what the goal is, how this could possibly resolve itself, the diplomatic process seems. I don't know. He says they're cuckoo. I'm done dealing with them. They're sickos. Like, I mean, half of that is bluster, or three quarters of it is bluster, but I'm not, I've never been that confident in Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff negotiating this process, though they are a crackerjack team of diplomats and, like, what what confidence should we have that this doesn't stretch on, off and on, not being called a war forever? The only thing standing in Trump's way, I guess, is the appropriations process and the fact that he's asking Congress for another $350 billion. And Republicans may not be super stoked on doing that four months before the midterms.
- [52:19]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it's. This goes to the point I like to make about this, which is anyone dumb enough to start this war is too dumb to get out of it, which is sort of where we are.
- [52:29]
Alex Wagner
Totally.
- [52:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
As you pointed out, oil prices and gas prices have gone up a little bit through this. The stock market's gone down. Ships are still passing through the strait, although it's still well below Pre war
- [52:42]
Alex Wagner
levels, 1/3, 1/3 of pre war levels.
- [52:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
But the administration has finally taken at least one step to help with gas prices. Let's take a look. We're here at the first Freedom Fuel Network gas station right here in Philadelphia, leading the charge to lower gas prices. $3.47. That's for our 47th president, President Donald J. Trump. When I saw it, I thought it was fake news, but I'm glad it's true. Thanks a lot, Chalk.
- [53:10]
Pod Save America Host
Just keep doing what you're doing.
- [53:11]
Alex Wagner
What a good job.
- [53:12]
Dan Pfeiffer
Thank you, President Trump.
- [53:13]
Alex Wagner
Thank you for helping our country.
- [53:14]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's President Donald J. Trump leading the charge to lower gas prices right here at Freedom Fuel Network's gas stations. You heard that right. The administration's big move is a network of so called Freedom Fuel stations that are mostly in the larger Philadelphia area. And they are selling gas at 347A gallon. 47 cents. Get it? Alex, I believe you have some thoughts on this initiative, and I'm going to clear out and let you have them.
- [53:44]
Alex Wagner
Okay, first of all, nobody knows who's behind these gas stations. They've just like popped up around the Philly area. They used to be like Sunoco stations or Texaco stations. There's just like giant stickers on them and nobody knows how they're pricing gas at 347. Because, newsflash, the reason gas prices are high is not because gas owners are stubborn and just need to be convinced, get on the bandwagon of cheap gas. It's because they have to be because the market is at where it's at now. There's some discretion they have in terms of sense and, like, you know, on the margins. But when gas is over $4 a gallon, it's not because they've gotten greedy. It's because that's where the market is. That's where the price of crude. So this is all smoke and mirrors. This is like a gas station Potemkin Village. Like it's and, and like I sort of delight in it because it is further proof that Donald Trump is a socialist. Like these gas stations or gas station owners are clearly getting some kind of government subsidy to lower gas to 347. It is meaningfully lower than other area gas stations. And it fits in the suite of decisions Donald Trump has made to have the heavy hand of government get involved in private enterprise, whether that's, you know, extorting Nvidia and Intel for stock that the government controls in order to get licenses in order or in order to, you know, establish trading overseas, whether that's the tariffs, whether that's the heavy hand of the Trump administration involved in the media and censorship. I mean, this is all the behavior of, I don't know, like someone like Maduro or Putin or take your pick. This is not what free market capitalism is supposed to look like. It is, it is socialism, sometimes communism, maybe outright fascism and authoritarianism under the guise as, you know, when it is politically convenient. What a joke.
- [55:35]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's also stupid.
- [55:36]
Ad Voice/Guest
Like what, like what possible world is
- [55:41]
Dan Pfeiffer
this going to make a difference by having like a handful of gas stations in the Philadelphia area sell gas for a short period of time for a slightly cheaper than other parts of the like. But it is. They are spitting in the ocean.
- [55:54]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. There are tens of thousands of gas stations across the country.
- [55:58]
Dan Pfeiffer
Like, there is like there is a saying when you work in the White House. It's like you want to get caught trying. Like there are problems you can't solve. They're too big. Congress won't work, but you won't be able to see you're trying. No one's this is even qualified as trying. They sent this video out saying they're doing this and then in 99% of the rest of the country, people who see the video are then going to drive to the gas station and gas is going to be the same high price it was before. So you've just angered them because somehow then where you are not valuable enough to get one of these freedom fuel stations, you still have to pay the normal price. It's just so stupid. It's all dumb. It's all done.
- [56:30]
Alex Wagner
I think it's honestly for Trump. Do you know what I mean? I think it's just a video that they can play for him when the baby gets angry. It's like one of those Soothing, like it's one of those, you know, there are these little gummy toys you can give babies they can chew on when they're teething and they get angry. This is the, the, the sort of video version of that.
- [56:48]
Dan Pfeiffer
You know what this is? This is cocomelon for fascist idiots.
- [56:50]
Alex Wagner
That's exactly what it is.
- [56:52]
Dan Pfeiffer
Okay. All right. One more consequence of the Iran situation we wanted to mention. Trump flew his new Qatari gifted Air Force One to Turkey, but when it was time to leave, he announced that he was sending the jet onto an air base in England to give American stationary chance to tour the aircraft. And that, quote, for old times sake, he'd be following in the old plane. He was, of course, lying. The New York Times reported that the Secret Service urged him to take the old plane because it was more secure and the new version doesn't have the same defensive capabilities. Alex, I thought the new Air Force One, which we paid hundreds of millions of dollars, we, the taxpayers, paid hundreds of millions of dollars to rush into service, was totally safe and perfect. Are you shocked by this?
- [57:28]
Alex Wagner
Shocked, Dan. I did not realize that when Trump, first of all, he has two jets in rotation, and I believe there are two more under construction right now. So it's not like the entrance of this free cuttery jet did anything to help the American taxpayer or saved us any money. I direct you to John Lovett and Tommy Vietor's excellent YouTube conversation on this very topic, which I found quite enlightening, and that clearly the jet is not up to snuff. Maybe they spent all the money on like warm nuts that are served right before, right after takeoff, or lie flat seats or, you know, really fancy in flight amenities like face mist, I don't know. But it wasn't on securing the jet the way it needs to be because clearly they believe that there was some kind of national security threat flying out of Turkey. They asked people on Air Force One to lower their blinds, which I guess according to Tommy, is what you do in a war zone. And that the Qatari jet did not have significant missile defense systems on it to keep everybody safe. So they had to fly the old baby blue Air Force One out of the threat zone. That's a problem. You don't want to have to have two jets in rotation because one isn't actually up to. Isn't secure enough. Generally speaking, you want the President to be on the safe jet all the
- [58:45]
Dan Pfeiffer
time because, like, there's another version of this, right? Which is the Air Force won't exist the way it does. It's built the way it's built because in the event, because this idea came during the Cold War, which is there is a nuclear war or some other war and the President has to stay in the air for hours and hours and hours, be able to fly anywhere in the world to get to safety and be able to command the US Military forces from there. And so you can't, like, at any point he could be on the new jet and theoretically something can happen in the world that could put him at risk. But you're on the new jet. It's, this is not just like, it's not a commuter shuttle. No, it's just, it's like once again, and this whole thing is so dumb because the jet, he doesn't care about that. Because the, it's not, it's not that often that the President is actually targeted like this, obviously, or that he is in within ballistic missile range of Iran, but because he takes the jet with him when he leaves. That's the thing. This jet does not go to President Josh Shapiro, aoc, Kamala Harris, whoever else comes next, it goes to Donald Trump to fly around on as he visits golf clubs around the world.
- [59:59]
Alex Wagner
Fantastic. Trump force won.
- [60:01]
Dan Pfeiffer
Trump force won.
- [60:02]
Alex Wagner
What a disaster. But what else? I mean, everything Trump touches turns to shit. So here we are.
- [60:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
When we come back, North Carolina Senate candidate, former Governor Roy Cooper.
- [60:19]
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- [61:25]
Dan Pfeiffer
Joining me now is the Democratic nominee for one of the most important Senate races this cycle, former North Carolina Governor Ro Cooper. Governor Cooper, welcome back to Pons of America.
- [61:34]
Ad Voice/Guest
I'm glad to be with you, Dan. Thanks a lot.
- [61:36]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's been, it's been a while, so it's great to have you on here. North Carolina, a state near and dear to my heart, has been breaking Democratic hearts for a long time. It's been since 2008, since the Democrat won a Senate seat there. Talk to me about why you believe 2026 is going to be different than all the other cycles that have emotionally traumatized so many Democrats around the country and in North Carolina. So.
- [62:00]
Ad Voice/Guest
Well, Dan, I've been having to convince people that we are having a tough race because people ask me what my biggest fear is and that a lot of people have put this race in the check mark win column. And you and I know the history of North Carolina. Just because I have a lead in the polls doesn't mean this race isn't going to be very close. We've seen so many Democratic candidates have a lead, have a lead, have a lead until they don't. And we see Republican money pouring into this state at the end and we see great Democratic candidates lose by a couple of points. And as you know, it's been 2008 since we won a seat, almost 40 years. We've only had two Democrats and both of them served one term. So this is going to be a close race. I think this is different because people are hurting. Now. I don't think I've seen it like this because I've been out on my makes stuff cost less tour. People are telling me that there's just too much month at the end of the money for them. Their paychecks just are not keeping up with the cost of living. And they are frustrated and they recognize that Washington, D.C. is in chaos, that this president and administration promised them that day one, the cost of living would be on top of the list. And not only has it not been, they've actively hurt people's chances in that we've seen these chaotic tariffs add cost to everything. We've seen this war in Iran increase costs. We've seen this one big beautiful bill that ripped health care away from people and given the tax breaks to the billionaires. People are frustrated. And at the end of the day, I think they know that I will be a senator who will put the people first, not the billionaires. And we know that my opponent Michael Whatley will do and say whatever this president tells him to do and say. And we know at the end of the day that a lot of money is going to come into North Carolina, but we're going to win this race because we have to. I told my children the other day that, that my parents left me a better country, but that we had work to do to leave them a better country. And I think all of us need to look within us and say, hey, what can I do to make sure that this country is the kind of country we want to leave to our kids and grandkids? And that's why I'm running for the Senate.
- [64:33]
Dan Pfeiffer
You point out affordability is the number one issue in North Carolina. It's the number one issue all around the country. It's frankly the number one issue in our politics for basically since COVID as inflation went up, as you mentioned, you were on this tour of North Carolina. Tell me a little about the tour and can you give me a handful of specific ideas that you would do to help lower people's prices if elected?
- [64:51]
Ad Voice/Guest
Well, the tour, I've been meeting people across North Carolina. We call it the make stuff cost less tour.
- [64:57]
Dan Pfeiffer
Very clear. Yes.
- [64:59]
Ad Voice/Guest
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we hear from Kawana, who's struggling to pay for groceries. She's a teacher. We hear from Meredith, whose kid vivies on Medicaid and merits cared death, that Washington is going to attack and take away Vivi's health care. Pender's a farmer in rural North Carolina. The tariffs are killing him. So in my policy proposals, you can go to roycooper.com and read our proposals on what we're proposing to do to make stuff cost less. You can also help us out. You can also volunteer. We need people to help us in this campaign. But first, you know, we've got to work with Republicans and I believe there'll be some who will be ready to work with us on taking back the legislative branch's constitutional authority here. Checks and balances are critical. So taking them back on trade and tariffs, we got to roll back these chaotic tariffs. And I think immediately that helps to reduce the cost of living. We got to restore the health care cuts that, that have really wreaked havoc on people's pocketbooks and people's lives, their health. We've got to make sure that we are investing in education across the board. I believe that when you look at all of the proposals that we have made, like a child care tax credit, because I'm hearing from people about childcare going through the roof and they're having to make hard decisions about whether one parent's going to work. We just need a Washington focused on people and not tax breaks for the corporations. And I think that we can make a difference. Government that works can make a difference for people and help them have a paycheck that keeps up with the cost of living.
- [66:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
There's been a lot of talk about groceries and gas, of course, and gas because of the Iran war. But is utility prices and one of the things driving up utility prices is data centers. What would you do with data centers to either help lower the cost of electricity, slow the build the build of these? Like how are you thinking about this sort of mad rush to build as many data centers as possible?
- [67:05]
Ad Voice/Guest
It's part of my policy proposals is that they must pay for their own energy. Other consumers should not have to bear any cost from data centers. And we should encourage them to create their own energy sources and connect them to the grid. And I think many of them are ready to step up and do that. Of course, communities have to have input as to whether these are built there or not. But I think that is critical because we now have a demand for power unlike anything we've ever seen. And we have a Congress and a president in Washington that that has wiped away the gains that we made in clean energy that would have helped add energy to the grid. That's all been wiped away during the last couple of years. So we have a real challenge on our heads. So I think they have to make sure that they pay for their own.
- [68:04]
Dan Pfeiffer
Your opponent, Michael Whatley, is not particularly well known to a lot of people around the country. He's not sort of one of these MAGA bad guys like a Ken Paxton or HERSCHEL Walker or Dr. Oz in previous elections. I understand there's some debate about his North Carolina roots and that he failed to be able to name any members of your NHL Stanley cup championship team down there. But what should voters either in North Carolina or around the country want to help your campaign know about Michael Whatley and who he is and what he would do?
- [68:34]
Ad Voice/Guest
Well, first, he's been a Washington D.C. insider for years. He was a big oil and utility company lobbyist. He worked to be able to raise prices for oil companies and raise utility rates for utility companies. He still owns stock in those. And he served as chair of the Republican National Committee, as co chair pushed there by President Trump. And we're seeing that he's able to line his own pockets by advocating and encouraging the Iran war, pushing this one big beautiful Bill, he owns pharma company stocks and we know that those have gone up because of this one big beautiful bill. He was also chair of the North Carolina Republican Party and recruited right wing candidates like Mark Robinson, who's the self described black Nazi in North Carolina and stood beside and behind Mark Robinson. He has lied about my record. You mentioned that he's been telling people that he grew up in Blowing Rock, North Carolina. In actuality, he moved to Blowing Rock from Michigan when he was 15 years old. And I don't mind people coming into North Carolina. You don't have to have grown up. North Carolina people are full North Carolinians when they move here. But just, just don't lie about it. But he's lied about my record and particularly on crime. But then you look at his record on crime. He appointed a convicted child sex predator who served time in prison to a prominent position in the North Carolina Republican Party and stood by him and reappointed him, even though the party debated this. And recently the party has come in and passed a resolution saying we aren't going to have sex predators appointed to positions of prominence anymore. He's also very recently stood by Trump's pardon of all of these J6 insurrectionists, including those who assaulted police officers and including those who went on to commit other crimes, crimes some against children for child sex crimes. That's the kind of record that Michael Whiteley has. And as I say, he will do and say whatever this president tells him to do and say. On the other hand, I will be a strong independent senator for North Carolina. I will put the people first. I will try to work with this president when I can. I did my first four years as governor. He was president. At the same time I tried to work with him. We had to go through Covid and other things. But I will stand up to him when I need to and there needs to be a lot of standing up to him right now in Washington. I think the people of North Carolina are going to want that at the end of the day.
- [71:40]
Dan Pfeiffer
You mentioned the attacks on your record on crime. This is in a bunch of their ads. This seems to be their main strategy for trying to defeat you is to Mr. Paint you his week on crime, week on immigration. They are specifically focusing on some early releases that you granted in your time as governor. What is your response to those attacks? What's the true story here?
- [72:00]
Ad Voice/Guest
Well, first those stories. There are many lies being told in what they've done and they've had fact checks that have shown that they just simply are not telling the truth. I'm the only person in this race who's actually prosecuted violent criminals and work to keep them behind bars. While Michael Whatley has appointed a child sex predator to a prominent position in the North Carolina Republican Party. That's the difference between us on crime. People know my record as attorney general. They know that as governor, I signed tougher bail laws. They know, too, that I believe in working to prevent crime, crime by investing in early childhood education and in our public schools and in health care and in our communities. I think that's critical, but they believe this is a soft spot. It is not. And I think the people of North Carolina will hear that at the end of the day.
- [73:02]
Dan Pfeiffer
You know, immigration and crime are sort of tied together in Republican rhetoric these days. One of the tasks for a Democratic Senate will be, or just new Democratic senators is going to be trying to find ways to rein in what is happening with ICE and what the Trump administration's doing with ice. We just had another person killed by ICE recently. How are you thinking about what you, if you were elected Senate, what you would do with ice? Like, how would you reform it, restrain it? What are you thinking?
- [73:30]
Ad Voice/Guest
Well, first, we need secure borders in this country, and we should deport violent criminals. And this organization should be working to try and do that. But we also don't need what is happening now with people being picked up just because of what they look like. Often American citizens being put in danger, shot on the street. It seems to me reasonable that officers who work with ICE should have the same requirements that state, local and federal law enforcement officers should have. And I think that that is something that we need to do, make sure that they have those same requirements.
- [74:18]
Dan Pfeiffer
As we mentioned, your opponents, the former chair of the rnc, a couple weeks ago, the Supreme Court had a ruling which now will allow the party committees, like the RNC and the DNA DNC to spend unlimited funds on behalf on races like yours. How does that ruling affect your race with your opponent being the former chair of the organization that can now spend unlimited money?
- [74:44]
Ad Voice/Guest
This is the worst campaign finance Supreme Court decision since Citizens United. It allows virtually unlimited spending from these joint committees. When a candidate and a political party or like the Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee come together, they don't have any limits as they used to have. This puts more power in the hands of the very wealthy, of the billionaires, of the corporations, and I think you're going to see a significant amount of money flowing into races all across the country using this new device. It may affect our race Even more than others, being that Whatley has been recently the chair of the Republican National Committee. He knows all the people there. He certainly has been talking about the fact that they're going to use this new tool. We all need to come together and get a grip on campaign finance in this country. We have to find a way to stop this madness. It's too much money in politics. I'll be first in line to find a way to overturn Citizens United. But until then, we cannot unilaterally disarm. This takes power away from small donors, and I hope small donors will stand up, up and say, we're not going to let this happen. We're going to give these candidates even more. RoyCooper.com is a great place to go and to do that because we need to have a strong voice for everyday people. And this new decision just allows more money into the system. It leads to more corruption. We see open corruption in Washington right now. In fact, my opponent, as I mentioned, owns individual stock. When I ran for governor, I sold all of my individual stock. I have widely held mutual funds. I'm doing that during the campaign. I will do that as a United States Senator, regardless of what the law is. But I will work to pass a law that prohibits members of Congress and executive high executive officials from trading individual stocks. I'll support a law that stops allowing people to be lobbyists after they serve in Congress. We need to get people to trust the federal government again. And right now, people just don't. So we have to elect people not only who will fight to change laws. We're seeing that we have a lot of people who want to change the laws, but nothing ever happens in Washington on this. But who will set examples? And that's what I want to do when I get there. And the way this money is going to come in, I hope it won't affect these elections because I hope that people will step up and help these candidates. We've got to take back the House. We've got to take back the Senate. We've got to make sure that we come back to the Constitution that the framers intended, where we have true checks and balances. Because right now we have leaders in Congress who simply will not stand up to the President. And you need to do that. Regardless of party, you need to do that. And the branches need to push against each other in order to make this great republic work.
- [78:26]
Dan Pfeiffer
I'll say this for you to make it easier, but the ruling means, means that the, the RNC has a lot more money in the dnc, the NRC has more money in the dscc. They're probably some more money than Democrats. If we are going to, the only way we're going to stay competitive in these races for people to go to websites like roycooper.com and push back. Because it's not, we're, we are, we can win with grassroots donations. We are not going to match them billionaire for billionaire in this race. So I just wanted to make, lay that out there. I would, I would do that for you, make that pitch easier for you.
- [78:56]
Ad Voice/Guest
You said it better than I and I think you're right about that because we can't catch up. The DNC just simply can't catch up before November. So we're going to have to have help from everyday people out there.
- [79:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
The Democratic Party is in a bit of transition these days and we have Democratic socialists winning in New York City and Colorado. We have progressive anti establishment candidates winning here and there. We also have Roy Cooper's running in North Carolina and Sherrod Brown's running in Ohio. Is there a tent big enough for the party these days? How are you thinking about what's going on in the party? You're a two term governing establishment figure. There's this anti establishment fervor going on. How are you navigating all of this?
- [79:43]
Ad Voice/Guest
Well, I understand why people are frustrated because government often hasn't worked at the federal level and people are mad. And so I get it. People are paying too much, things are costing too much out there and they're frustrated. They don't have health care, they can't afford a place to live. My goodness, they had one bipartisan thing that they did, the housing bill that just got flipped on his head. That's just so, so frustrating. But look, I can just tell you what we've done here. I was a Democratic governor for eight years. I had a Republican legislature for eight years. And yes, I vetoed all a lot of bad legislation and we fought over a lot of things. But I found ways to work with them on recruiting good paying jobs to our state, to getting paid parental leave, to passing a law to get our power sector to carbon0 by 2050 and finally got a Republican legislature in a southern state to expand Medicaid, which has made a real difference. And we did that by getting their constituents in these red rural counties to lobby them for it. Because when I would use my contacts with sheriffs in some of these counties when I served as attorney general and many of them would complain to me that essentially that a lot of People in their jail were struggling and needed health care. And so they understood that Medicaid expansion would bring more help to their county with medical services and would help keep their rural hospital open. And when you have a tough on crime Republican sheriff walking the halls lobbying for Medicaid expansion, it's very effective. And so we were able to work together on a common goal to get health care. And these red rural counties have benefited really more than anybody else here. 730,000 people and counting now have health care in North Carolina. And there are ways to work together. We saw it on the housing bill in Washington. We've got to have more people who are willing to sit down at the table, even if they have disparate opinions. When you look at goals, often our goals are shared, even if we are on opposite ends politically. We want a good education for our kids. We want a good paying job. We want clean air and water. We want quality health care. We all want the same things. And we have to be willing to sit down at the table and find ways forwards, find a way to achieve consensus. I did that as governor time and time again. I want to do that in Washington. And I believe that Washington could use a dose of North Carolina common sense. I'm ready to come and try and provide that, not only from a governor, attorney general perspective, a state legislator perspective, but I practiced law for 18 years and was a managing partner of my small firm for a while. I had to make a payroll. So I have a lot of background that I think I can use in helping to shape legislation, walking around across the aisle trying to find a way forward because people just want government to work. And right now it's not.
- [83:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
I think, Governor, I think it's a great place to end it. Governor Cooper, thank you so much for joining us and we'll talk to you again soon.
- [83:13]
Ad Voice/Guest
Thanks, Dan. Appreciate it.
- [83:14]
Dan Pfeiffer
All right, that's our show for today.
- [83:16]
Alex Wagner
Thanks for working fast. It was so fast. Sorry to cut you off.
- [83:20]
Guest/Advertiser
It's.
- [83:20]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's been an hour. We've been doing this for an hour.
- [83:21]
Alex Wagner
No, I mean, it just. I just meant like, it.
- [83:24]
Dan Pfeiffer
Like it was just when you're having this much fun.
- [83:26]
Alex Wagner
Emotional highs and Lowe's.
- [83:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
It was important because it was our last grand platner conversation ever.
- [83:32]
Alex Wagner
Oh, my God. Mark that on your calendars.
- [83:34]
Dan Pfeiffer
I know. Seriously. Okay. That's our show for today. Thanks to Roy Cooper for coming on. Tommy will be back in the feed on Sunday with a conversation with Gary Lineker, host of the Rest is Football and legendary England striker, to talk about the World cup and the politics of soccer. Talk to everyone soon. Bye, everyone.
- [83:51]
Pod Save America Host
Pod Save America is a crooked media production.
- [83:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
Our show is produced by Austin Fisher,
- [83:55]
Pod Save America Host
Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Farah Safari,
- [83:57]
Dan Pfeiffer
with Reed Churlin, Elijah Cohn and Adrian Hill.
- [83:59]
Pod Save America Host
Our team includes Matt de Groot, Ben Hethcoat, Charlotte Landis, David Toles, Mia Kellman,
- [84:02]
Dan Pfeiffer
Ryan Young and Naomi Sengel.
- [84:03]
Pod Save America Host
Our staff is proudly unionized with the
- [84:05]
Dan Pfeiffer
Writers Guild of America East.